Joining us today is Liam Heffernan, an award winning independent podcaster and the founder of Mercury, a new podcast network for indie creators.

With a background that includes hosting the popular show America A History and working with industry leaders like Audi and the podcast boutique, Liam has also earned recognition as one of Pod Pod's 30 faces to watch.

Drawing on his own experiences, Liam is on a mission to revolutionize podcasting by putting creators first, helping them grow and monetize without sacrificing control.

That is a very interesting little point there.

Let's get into that and the future of Mercury.

Liam, welcome to behind the Show.

How are you?

Hi, Gareth.

Yeah, it's great to be on the show.

It feels like we.

The last time we spoke was at the Independent Podcast Awards, which wasn't that long ago, but it feels like a lifetime ago.

Feels eons ago, doesn't it?

Yeah, especially as it's so cold outside now.

It's like a different season almost.

Oh, my word.

So I went out this morning and there was ice on the floor.

And trying to navigate getting a small child to nursery on an icy path is not a feat that should be underestimated.

It should be like the next sport in the Olympics or something.

It should, it should, yeah.

Winter Olympics.

There you go.

That's very good.

Well, Liam, look, welcome to the show.

You are here to talk about something specific, this new independent podcast network that you have kind of created.

What inspired you to launch Mercury and how does your background as an independent podcaster influence the network's approach?

I think the first time I tell anyone that I'm launching a podcast network, there's that bit of an eye roll moment because, you know, there's so many networks out there and they all do much the same thing.

Right.

But that's kind of the point, and that's why I've come in with Mercury, because as someone who's been firmly rooted in the independent space, you know, I've worked on a lot of stuff for independent clients.

I've made my own shows.

I feel like the industry as a whole has matured to such a point where there's now this gap, where there's a lot of creators out there that have shows that are big enough to be earning money and certainly big enough to be getting the support and the attention to grow, to start earning money, but they're just not big enough to get the attention of the big networks who have these huge shows on their books.

And, you know, they need ads, they need to sell ads.

That's their only priority.

So they're not going to give the FaceTime and the support to smaller shows.

They really just want to get as many podcasts on their books as possible to sell the ad revenue to make money.

And I'm going to just preface this whole conversation by saying there's nothing inherently wrong with that because networks have to make a profit.

It's a business plan, isn't it?

Yeah.

But I think the problem is with that model is that independent podcasters who deserve to be supported and helped to have awesome content are just falling through the cracks and not getting what they need from current networks.

Yeah.

And quite often, because it's usually just one person doing everything and you can't do everything.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this is it.

And actually this is one of the things that has come up in a lot of the conversations I've been having with some of the podcasters on the network and some of the other people I've spoken to along the way in building this is, you know, the problem isn't the content.

You know, we get so fixated on what can we do to make our content as good as possible.

Well, there's a lot of awesome shows out there where the content is top notch.

The problem isn't the content, it's the fact that no one's listening to it and no one's paying these people to make it.

So let's, let's address that.

And to that point, the first priority of every podcaster is the content, isn't it?

I want to make this episode the best it can possibly be, and then I'll address, you know, how I'm going to promote it, which advertiser I'm going to approach.

But, you know, quite often in real world terms, you're then onto the next episode and you got to try and squeeze those things in so they're not at the top of that priority list.

And quite rightly so.

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, and this is the thing, like, content has to come first if you're, if you're a podcaster, because if you don't have the content, you have nothing to grow and nothing to monetize.

Right, exactly.

And so rightly so.

You know, an independent podcaster should feel empowered to be able to focus on creating the content.

The problem is, you know, when they have to then think about, okay, how am I going to promote this?

How am I going to get this show to a point where it's got an audience to then put in the work to monetize it and, and do all of that side of stuff, that's where we're coming in with Mercury, you know, and inherently we're not doing anything fundamentally different from other networks in that, you know, we have to make money, we have to sell ads.

Right.

That's, that's how I'm going to earn my own living from running this.

So it's not about what we're doing, it's, it's the way we're doing it.

And, you know, I wanted to make sure that from day one we had built something that was designed specifically to address some of those unique challenges faced by smaller independent shows.

Yeah, yeah.

With the goal over the long term of, you know, being the home of the best independent podcast in the world.

And that's, you know, that's not just about cashing in on shows that are already making loads of money.

It's about working with some of the best shows that people haven't yet heard of and turning them into profitable sort of full time careers for the creators.

Talking about some of the shows that you're launching with as well, you're quite right.

You know, Verbal Diorama with the mighty Ed McGowan, Passmaster, 40K lore, cast America, A History.

That sounds familiar, that one.

Yeah.

With that, some amazing shows there.

So you're quite right.

Binge watch.

You're also developing original.

I mean, you are going straight out of the gates going, right?

Yeah, we're developing originals as well.

You have a True Crime original that you're developing.

Yes.

So this is something that's going to be coming a bit later in 2025.

But, you know, one of the conversations I had quite early on in developing Mercury was with a fairly well known true crime podcast in the uk.

And, you know, one of the natural concerns about, you know, new networks and with podcasters that are already monetizing is how do we know that Mercury is going to, you know, be able to deliver from day one?

Right.

Totally understandable.

So we had a really long conversation about, you know, what we could do, how we could collaborate.

And actually we realized that we both had a shared interest in a particular thing and she had this idea that she'd been thinking about for a little while.

And so with the help of another sort of quite prominent British true crime podcaster there, they're joining forces to create a show and they're going to launch that on Mercury.

And so I guess this is, you know, this is our testing ground.

This is them sort of backing what we're doing and what we're building at Mercury.

This is me, you know, putting my money where my mouth is and saying like, let's launch something from the ground up and let's, let's make this work and let's really show what we can do here.

So I'm really excited.

I'll be able to give some more details when we get a bit closer to launch.

But yeah, keep your ears out for that one.

How do you ensure podcasters retain control over their content, particularly in advertising and sponsorship?

It's a tricky one, isn't it?

Because, you know, as a network you have to take some control over what ads are being placed and where, purely because when you're managing things at a network level, you've got to have some sort of decision making power there, obviously.

Will that be a conversation about what kind of ads that you're seeking to put in that sort of thing?

So there's a trust element.

Exactly.

And one of the things, one of the key things that is part of the Mercury offering is that we're not going to go ahead, agree some direct campaign and just, you know, land a script in someone's email and say, here you go, read this.

You know, we want our podcasters to feel like they have a say, particularly over the host red stuff.

Because the programmatic, fine.

You know, there's an element of listeners understand that ads get thrown on, right.

And it's not an endorsement.

But I think with any direct campaigns, anything that's host read, I think there is an assumption, rightly so, that if the host is there reading an ad, that with that comes a level of endorsement.

So I'm never going to just go ahead and agree a campaign without giving the podcasters involved an opportunity to refuse, because I want them to feel comfortable and happy with anything that they're specifically advertising on their show.

That's really cool.

Giving them the opportunity to refuse it means that you can go and do your job, but they still have a say in what's going out ultimately.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, yeah, I mean, competing with big networks is a bit of a bold move to say, what are the biggest challenges that Mercury will face, do you think, in 2025?

I think when launching a network of any sort, there's the initial sort of thrust exercise because there's a lot of established networks out there and actually I'm not here to bash any of them because you, you know, I know a lot of the people that work in these networks, you know, I know what they're doing and, you know, they're delivering exactly what they're promising to deliver and they're doing A great job.

The problem that Mercury is addressing is simply this little gap in the market that those other networks aren't able to serve as well.

So I don't see Mercury as really competing directly with these networks.

Of course, there's going to be some shows that we're all going to go after.

Right.

But I think that we're offering very different things.

You know, I guess in the same way.

Sorry to interrupt, but I guess in the same way that you've got the British Podcast Awards, you've got the Independent Podcast Awards, there's space for everyone and both are thriving.

So that Independent Podcast Awards was a wonderful space, and it was wonderful to see so many indie podcasters in one room and just talking about their shows with passion.

Uh, it was lovely.

So, yeah, there's room for everyone, isn't there?

It's a great comparison because you're right, like, if a lot of the shows that were represented and nominated and at the Independent Podcast Awards submitted to the British Podcast Awards, I imagine they maybe wouldn't have had the space to thrive as easily, you know, because they're two very differently positioned awards that are aimed at very different parts of the.

Of the podcasting space.

Both are very critical, I think, to ensuring that we have a thriving kind of ecosystem of great podcasts.

And I think you can say the same about networks.

You know, I think the problem is, up until now, nothing like Mercury has come along.

And again, I'm not reinventing the wheel here.

I'm just maybe using a slightly different material.

Yeah.

I guess using that analogy of the Independent Podcast Awards, and I don't want to ask you, you know what, where do you see yourself in five years?

That.

That question, which everyone hates, but how do you see it kind of shaping the podcasting landscape, having something like this?

It's interesting.

You say, I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna ask where you see yourself in five years, but where do you see yourself in five years?

But.

No, I understand.

Well, you know, the podcasting landscape, to me, has been constantly evolving for the last few years.

And I think if you like, for instance, the Independent Podcasting Awards started, and that immediately changed everything.

You know, suddenly the independent podcasting sector, so to speak, had a voice.

It was seen.

I guess you're adding to that.

That's what I mean.

You know, the podcast landscape will change from having something.

I mean, are there other independent podcast networks out there?

There are definitely.

I are some great networks out there.

And actually, you know, I'd shout out the likes of you know, sports, social and you know, crowd network and they're, they're doing some great things and they are working with, in the more sort of independent space, you know, the bigger players, like, you know, Wondery.

I think though, networks like that have a real strong focus on original in house productions, you know, being having and sort of this IP ownership.

And there's a lot to be said for owning the IP of, of course, but I don't think that there is a network out there that really addresses the need of providing support for growth and monetization to independent creators without also taking control and ownership of their content.

And that's really where Mercury is fitting in here.

And that's why I think we are adding to that landscape rather than, you know, trying to take over from anyone else, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's empowering a section of the industry that needs that confidence, it needs that kind of boost and nurturing, I suppose.

Yeah.

And I think there are challenges there.

To answer your earlier question, with this sort of model, of course there are challenges.

There's a reason why networks have been created in the way that they have and scaled up in the way that they have because financially and economically that's proven to be the most viable way forward.

So yes, there are going to be some barriers along the way and there are going to be some, some, some hurdles to overcome in creating this kind of model for a network that fundamentally isn't really based on owning IP or you know, scaling up rapidly and building that volume.

It's about working with independent creators and ensuring that they keep control of their content.

We're just helping them on that journey of growth and, you know, taking our cut along the way of any ad revenue.

Yeah, of course.

And you know, I think, I guess the problem is, I don't know, I can't say this is going to work to, you know, to this degree over this amount of time, because it's kind of new.

We're doing something a bit different with networks.

We're trying a different model and it's one that I have 100% belief in.

That's why I'm putting my own shows on that, you know, I'm backing myself here.

That's part of the excitement as well, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it is.

You know, creating something.

If you played safe with everything, life would be a bit dull, wouldn't it?

You know, starting something.

And you know, every independent podcaster will agree with the fact that when you, you start a podcast, it's really exciting.

You have no idea if anyone's going to listen to it, but you're honing your skills, you're trying to improve, and hopefully people will come along along the way.

And there is an excitement attached to that, I think.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's one of the real sort of reasons and drivers behind what I'm doing, because, you know, I've done that.

I've been there.

I've been on that journey as an indie podcaster, and it is really exciting.

It's.

It's that feeling of, like, creating something from a blank canvas and then having a show to put out there into the world.

It's so exciting.

It's a bit terrifying because you want people to listen and enjoy it.

But, like, I don't want to take away from that.

I want people to enjoy that experience and feel pride and value in what they've put out there without feeling like, you know, a network's going to come along and kind of cash in on all their hard work and kind of take credit for it from day one.

So we're kind of.

We're providing that support really early on in ways that other networks maybe can't.

And, yeah, there's a risk that we help shows and indie creators to scale up and become, you know, huge successes, and then a big network is going to lure them away and, you know, help them make millions.

Yeah, because we.

We're not offering, you know, fixed terms on our membership.

That could be a goal, couldn't it?

You got them to such a.

A point where they are being enticed by big professional networks.

I mean, what a success that would be.

Exactly.

You know, and, and, you know, yeah, so we're not tying our podcast into any length of time whatsoever.

So they could, they could turn around, you know, in a month and say, we're not getting any value from this.

We're out.

That's fine.

Our hope is that, you know, I guess there's two scenarios, right?

If Mercury is a success for our podcast, then either they're going to grow to such a point where they feel like they're going to get more value working with another network, and if they do, then that's amazing.

That's a success story for us.

You know, we can be proud that we've helped them get to that point, because that's the whole point of Mercury.

Our hope is that long term, you know, we do help our smaller podcasts become successful and grow and monetize.

And in doing so, we're building this really strong community of independent podcasters that then want to help the next generation come through in the same way that we helped them.

And over the long term, Mercury is going to be this force to be reckoned with in the independent community, where we've got the best independent podcasters in the world helping the best independent podcasts of tomorrow.

I mean, there you go, there's your call to action, isn't it?

Absolutely fantastic.

So I suppose, as a smaller side, based on your experiences, what kind of advice would you give to independent podcasters looking to grow and monetize their shows?

You know, we've touched on it a bit earlier, but I think content really is the most important priority of any independent podcaster.

You know, so often, and I've made this mistake myself in the past, you know, we can get really carried away with the idea of where we want to be with the podcast, that we forget to put the focus and the time in where it needs to be at the start.

So I think the most important thing for any indie podcaster when they're getting started is just to focus, to focus on creating some amazing content and building a podcast and a brand that.

That they're immensely proud of and also something that they're happy making, right?

You got like, find.

Find what works for you.

Because if you get stuck in this, right early on of creating a podcast, purely thinking, I need to monetize, I need to.

I need to sort of turn this into, like a.

Some sort of business venture.

And, you know, I.

I think it can really distract you from the whole reason why you wanted to do this podcast in the first place.

That's why podfade sets in.

That's why, you know, that podcast won't exist in a year's time.

I think the best independent podcasts are those that are created by people who genuinely love what they're talking about.

And you can hear that that comes through in the content.

And it's a long game.

You know, overnight successes take years, and you've got to make sure that you've got content that you're really happy with, that you're proud of and that you love making.

And the audience will come.

It's a slog, but just.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I totally relate to that.

And I have, for one of my podcasts, sort of the opposite problem.

Show called the Music Room, which has been going about three years, the audience is music creators.

So by definition, they're not people who are massively rich.

You know, they go from veterans of the community to, you know, bedroom DIY musicians.

And there's a lovely community Surrounding it, can't monetize it to save my life.

It's just one of those things.

And I even, you know, with the launch of a new show that I'm doing now, considered maybe that's it, you know, maybe it's run its course.

I can't leave it alone.

I just can't.

The community is so lovely and so supportive of each other.

I've seen people collaborate, but this is.

I kind of.

I feel like it's a bit taboo, isn't it, like, for someone to say, actually, you know, I'm happy not making money from my podcast, but, like, that's fine.

Like, if you're making a podcast that you just love making and you enjoy doing it and you feel like it's putting value out there for someone, like, keep doing it.

Like, you don't.

Here's the big secret.

You.

You don't have to create a podcast to make money from it.

You can just do it because you love doing it.

Yeah.

As long as you've got a plan.

As long as you.

Like you said earlier on, you know, as long as you're clear on what you're doing, you're passionate about what you're doing, the benefits can come in other ways.

And, you know, in my case, that community is everything.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, Liam, this has been absolutely amazing.

How can podcasters, or indeed listeners, get involved with your new independent podcaster network, Mercury, or learn more about what it's doing?

Yeah, firstly, thanks, Gareth.

You know, just.

I don't know when this is going out in relation to any other coverage we've got, but this is the first, like, big conversation I've been able to have with someone about Mercury.

And I've been bottling this up and, like, talking kind of discreetly to people about it for months.

So this is awesome to just, like, finally go blur and get it all out.

Yeah.

So this has been amazing.

For anyone that does want to find out more, you can visit mercurypodcast.com and we'll have some more information about all our shows on there.

And also, if you are an indie podcaster, when you want to get in touch and talk about potentially joining the network, then, you know, use the contact form on there as well.

We're also on LinkedIn posting stuff on there.

I don't know if we're going to do much in terms of other social media, because I don't think we need to.

Maybe we'll be on Blue Sky.

We'll never be on X.

Not all the time.

Musk is there anyway.

But anyway, that's politics.

Let's put that aside.

But yeah, you can find us mercurypodcast.com LinkedIn and also just look for me.

I'm around.

Great.

Nice one.

So thank you very much, Liam of Mercury, the new independent podcast network.

I wish you all the success in 2025 and check in and watch your progress with much interest.

Thank you, Gareth.

It's been a.