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Eddie: Previously on WebJoy.

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Jason: for me, it's fun.

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It turns it into a puzzle.

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And so failure is just information.

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All failure is temporary.

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Now it's part of the learning loop.

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And so the goal is to try something and
see whether it works so that you can then

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make a better informed decision next time.

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I think a trap that a lot
of people fall into as well.

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I got to practice enough so
that when I try, I don't fail.

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Like failure is not an option.

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So this is sort of one of the major
things for me, I guess, is that

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now failure is like part of it.

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You just, you go yeah, let's go fail
fast so that we can learn what to do

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differently so that we can get to the win.

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Eddie: Embrace failure as
a catalyst for learning.

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I love that.

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Welcome to Episode 5
of the WebJoy podcast.

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Michael: I almost treat it like,
like an RPG for the gamers out there.

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like, you start off with  level zero.

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And then at the end of the
game, you're like level 99,

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fighting dragons all this stuff.

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Like that's how I see myself.

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but at each failure of learning
how to do a for loop learning,

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how to do an if statement.

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When I gave up, I didn't start at zero.

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Like you said, I had my save point.

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I'd accrued some knowledge of programming
and it led me to be able to transition

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that and going with the metaphor
here, instead of using fire, I use ice

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Eddie: I'm your host Eddie.

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In this podcast, we interview guests
about their origin story and what

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makes them excited and joyful to
be part of the tech community.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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"Instead of Using Fire, I
Use Ice" with Michael Liendo.

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Welcome back to another episode of WebJoy!

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I'm excited to have
Michael joining us today.

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How about you tell everyone who you
are, what you do, where you work, you

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know, a brief introduction, if you will.

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Michael: Yeah, they thanks for having me.

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It's great to be here.

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My name is Michael Liendo.

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I am a Senior Developer Advocate
over at AWS,  which I currently

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work on the Amplify team.

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We do a whole bunch of AWS
for front-end development.

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We have a suite of tools
that really help folks.

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And then , outside of work, I have my
own brand, Focus Otter which case my

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YouTube channel and my blog, where I
typically post about AWS solutions,

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startup solutions and just ways to
engage small businesses in the community.

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Eddie: Nice.

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That's awesome.

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Well, that probably keeps you pretty busy.

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Michael: Yeah, for sure.

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for sure.

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Juggling all of that is always
fun, but it's a passion.

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So sometimes, most days it
doesn't even feel like work.

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Eddie: I think it's a
common thing in tech, right.

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For us to look back and be like, eh,
this doesn't really feel like working.

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But it's also a great place
to be in, so that's excellent.

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How did you get involved in tech?

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Did you start as a developer advocate?

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Did you start somewhere else and then
kind of work your way over there?

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What does that journey  look like for you.

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Michael: Oh, geez.

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My origin story is kind of crazy because
prior to advocating for developer tools,

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I was advocating for clothing products.

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I was  a male model and doing that
professionally for five to six years

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Eddie: wow

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Michael: Yeah.

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Yes.

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It's a really crazy story that my agent
at time, Marie ping, she's amazing.

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She was saying what happens if
something happens to the money maker?

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You know, what's your plan B and I, at the
time was like, I don't know, there's this

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cool new product  it's called an iPhone.

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And there's this really cool
app called Flappy Birds, there's

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another one called Angry Birds.

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And I was like I'm pretty sure I
could make something like that.

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So I took that as a challenge,
taught myself how to code

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through a whole bunch of failing.

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Turns out I never did make an iPhone
game but that led me down a path of

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web development, CSS, making things
interactive and just sort of book after

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book, Udemy course after unfinished
Udemy course, (laughing) Here I am.

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After a couple of foot in the door
opportunities I ended up working

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at an enterprise and then long
story short, I made my way here.

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And I think a big part of that is
just learning how to be an advocate

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of sorts and also not being afraid to
put myself out there in the community.

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Eddie: You were doing modeling
before you shifted into tech

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and went into programming.

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Now advocating for good technology
and helping people understand

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how to use that technology.

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What keeps you interested in what you're
doing now and kind of you locked in there.

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Michael: I understood early on as I
was transitioning from modeling to

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development that I don't like the
be in the cubicle person, you know,

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I to be out there in the community.

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I have to be engaging with folks.

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And that's what does it for me, if
anything, it's a little bit at odds

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because I'm naturally introverted and
being able to get paid to be an extrovert

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is very much so within my wheelhouse,
like, I'm that person where I love being

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out in the community, but I also like
being a recluse and being in my own shell.

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So having the financial incentive
to be like, "Hey could you grab

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and speak with these folks?"

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I love it.

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Eddie: I can understand that.

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Definitely.

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A lot of programmers are introverted.

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I'm introverted.

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myself.

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So yeah, definitely.

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If someone's like "All right, go out and
socialize in order to get paid," like that

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definitely would get me out of my bubble
more and get me out in the community.

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So that's cool.

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One of the things that we like
to talk about in this podcast is

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something that brings you joy.

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And it's funny, I heard a little tease
to it in hearing about your story

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and your iPhone learning journey.

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So,  talk us through what is
the topic that brings you joy

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and something that you'd like
to talk a little bit more about.

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Michael: For sure.

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I always have a couple ideas
top of mind, but I think the big

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one is just learning in general.

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Whenever you come across a brand
new topic, there's this dichotomy of

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sorts where it's like, going to Excel.

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I'm gonna do great at this, but
before I can get there, I'm gonna

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fail a whole lot and you have
to learn to be okay with that.

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And once you learn that skill of being
okay with uncomfortable and not knowing

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it really does feel like a superpower.

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And now that I've been doing this for
almost a decade now, it's very clear that

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anytime I come to learn a new topic or I
start that journey, I get excited because

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of all the failures that I know I'm going
to have all the frustrations that I know

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I'm gonna have to endure, being able to
push past that and understand that there

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is a light where you come out victorious

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uh, I almost treat it like, like
an RPG for the gamers out there.

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like, you start off with  level zero.

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And then at the end of the
game, you're like level 99,

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fighting dragons all this stuff.

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Like that's how I see myself.

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Every time it comes to learning
something new and I wish more

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folks could take it on as that way.

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Instead of oftentimes we find ourselves
focusing on the short term result,

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which is typically not very good.

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Eddie: That makes sense for sure.

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Well, and it's funny, right?

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So many times like RPGs, have these
save points and we save, and then

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we go out and grind and you grind
and you fight the enemies and then

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you run into an enemy who kills you.

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And you're back to the save point.

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And think in RPGs, we have actually
accepted this fact that we fail

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on the journey and that's okay.

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Right.

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Like we realized that that tactic didn't
work against that enemy, that boss And

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it's okay, because we've got our save
point and we're gonna figure out what

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other tactic maybe we need to use fire
instead of ice against this monster and

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in RPGs we often embrace that, but I
think in the real world, learning for

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our jobs and things like that, we can
get overwhelmed, Do you know what I mean?

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And we don't think of that as an okay.

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Option.

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Like we get, I guess, embarrassed,
if we fail in some way or something,

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Michael: Yeah.

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Starting off, as I mentioned,
I went the iOS route.

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I wanted to be an iPhone developer.

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And when it came to learning structs
and fetching data and all that

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stuff, it was brand new to me.

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It was a brand new language.

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I'm still Google searching, what
is the best programming language?

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It was just something  I'm sure
we've all done, but at each failure

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of learning how to do a for loop
learning, how to do an if statement.

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When I gave up, I didn't start at zero.

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Like you said, I had my save point.

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I'd accrued some knowledge of programming
and it led me to be able to transition

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that and going with the metaphor
here, instead of using fire, I use

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ice and that ice tactic was to take
that same approach for an if statement

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and apply it to web development and
that allowed me to progress to the

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next stage yeah, it is very much so
in that role, playing game genre.

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Eddie: I think that's
really encouraging to hear.

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because a lot of people when
they're learning and they encounter

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failure, really isolating.

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You don't want to tell anyone about it.

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And since people don't often
talk about it, I think, it's

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kind of like a dirty secret.

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I don't want anyone to know that
I failed when I try to do this.

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And so they'll announce when they
get a success, but they won't

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announce when they have a failure.

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And so love how you talk about
this and how that allows other

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people to know it's okay.

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For them to encounter this failures
and that they can do similar things

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to how you have  and say, what have I
learned and how can I take that save

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point to launch a different strategy.

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I think  that's cool.

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Right?

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Cause  you were thinking, oh, I'll build
iPhone apps and now you do development,

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but as a Developer Advocate, like
you're showing other people how to

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deal with programming, which is its
own whole different skill set as well.

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So you really did end up taking
a different strategy in the long

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run, which is really interesting.

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Michael: Yeah,  and to bring it full
circle I've built several iPhone

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apps, I just went React Native
instead, So was never native iOS.

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Eddie: Well, that's brilliant.

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Right?

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Because didn't even have to give up
on your initial, thought and dream.

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You could still do what you initially
wanted to do, but a different way.

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I think that's awesome.

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One of those things, you also mentioned
giving the introduction about yourself,

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that you work on this Focus Otter.

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I think oftentimes when we're
learning there can be a lot to learn.

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Right.

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Especially if you're trying to do a
new thing, if you're trying to do a new

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business or different stuff like that.

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So,  do you want to  share what you
do with Focus Otter and how you help

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people manage like how much they have
to learn and different things like that.

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Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

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It definitely ties in with
my role at AWS as well.

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We're allowed to pick different
niches of how we would like

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to advocate in the community.

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And one of mine is specializing  in
building production applications on top of

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Amplify and I really use that and leverage
that advantage with  my own business Focus

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Otter in the sense that I don't want to
teach folks how to make a to-do list.

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And I don't wanna show them
how to make hello world.

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I wanna give you the secret sauce.

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I'm gonna show you  what a
real world solution looks like.

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And that goes from how do I
accept payments on my application?

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Developers, Don't like to hear this, but
sometimes it's not, well, you need to

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install Stripe and you need to, learn,
react and HTML it's like, no, no, no.

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like sometimes you just need
to pay the 15 bucks and let

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somebody else handle that for you.

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Like, get your Shopify account set up.

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And those are the things that save time.

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They save frustration, because when you're
in a small business and  I'm talking about

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the solo-preneurs and the individuals
out there who are just trying something.

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Really you just wanna make sure you
have a small ball of success that

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you can really get that ball going.

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So that your, business seems sustainable
and  as long as you have that impression

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that it seems like this is going to work
$15 a month to get an account set up

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or a blog post that lets you understand
what is Stripe and what is this service

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where I have to enter my baking details.

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stuff is scary for people outside
of tech having information that

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us as tech individuals can create
for the non-tech folk is great.

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And that's what I'm all about.

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Eddie: I love that.

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I've done some different podcasts in
the past and it's funny, because in

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previous podcasts I've built my own
website and I've built the backend where

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I need to upload the files and suddenly
I'm not just producing a podcast.

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I'm also developing software that has
been a really challenge to keep it

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going and keep it working correctly.

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So this time, even though I can build
something like that, I went with that

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guidance and I was like, you know
what, I'm just gonna grab a company

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that hosts podcasts and they do it
well, and I'm going to give it my

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URL and they're going to handle it.

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And I can just do the podcast and
I don't need to do everything,

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even though the developer heart
in me wants to do everything.

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Michael: You know what, I take that and
I guess for the developers out there,

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I'm not saying don't for some of the
low hanging fruit where you can help out

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these individuals and make a small profit.

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the way that I approach it is I get
asked by many folks how do I get

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my email, so that it's my company
or admin or support @mycompany.com.

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And after a while I was
just doing it for free.

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Like, you know, here it is.

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And then you transition just like
with anything else you say, well I'll

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record myself making a video of it.

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And then I'll give that to folks.

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And if for whatever reason, they
still don't feel comfortable.

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Well, okay.

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So now, you know, I have a
product there that's free.

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You can check it.

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If you still want me, well, then
that's where the money comes into play.

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And I think that's a
fair way to do things.

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Eddie: I love that.

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Like you said you put some
information out there, right?

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You give good free information,
but then some people need a little

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bit more guidance or they have
very specific things or situations.

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And so they want be able to pay
some money to actually dive into

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that a little bit more precisely.

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I think that's awesome.

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You know, As we wrap up the episode
today, we always like to see if

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there's anything they'd like to
share with the community, so do you

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have anything you'd like to share?

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Michael: Yeah, I have my own channels.

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I have my own blogs in, in YouTube.

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you could find me at Focus Otter, however
instead of plugging those directly, I

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would actually want to shout-out one
of our former AWS community builders.

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I have to say former because she just
actually got an offer and started last

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week at the time of this recording
at AWS as a Developer Advocate.

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So this is gonna be, Linda
Viva, and she has this amazing

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product line, Coding Crystals.

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You can check it out over
at CodingCrystals.com.

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the cool thing about that is
she creates by herself, apparel

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for Developer Advocates.

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So this is in sense of hair clips, hair
ties, I'm sure you can get t-shirts.

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But it's amazing.

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And the fact that there's this whole
section of broadening out, tech for

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underrepresented individuals, I love it.

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So that's what I'm going to plug today.

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Eddie: Awesome.

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That's great.

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Michael, thank you for joining us today.

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It's been a pleasure to chat.

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Michael: Always great.

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Always great.

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Thanks for having me.

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This has been amazing and until next time.

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Eddie: Thanks for
joining us for Episode 5.

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"Instead of Using Fire, I
Use Ice" with Michael Liendo.

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You can find out more about
Michael on his Twitter @mtliendo.

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You can find links to everything
we talked about in this episode, as

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00:15:07,004 --> 00:15:10,934
well as a link to Michael's website
and Twitter in the show notes.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please
consider rating and reviewing

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00:15:14,984 --> 00:15:18,914
it in your favorite podcast
directory: iTunes, Spotify.

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00:15:19,264 --> 00:15:19,914
etc.

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00:15:20,264 --> 00:15:23,844
and follow us on Twitter @WebJoyFM.

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Thank you for listening
and have a great day!

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Next episode on WebJoy.

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Kelly: Ultimately I really loved UI
I loved just everything about  the

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corner radius of a button really
fascinated me I don't know if that's,

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um, normal or what, but I was obsessed.

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With other games there is a set
number of animations, everything

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feels very AI and very obvious.

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00:16:04,561 --> 00:16:09,321
So if you dodge two times roll it's like
oh this feels like a very scripted event

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00:16:09,771 --> 00:16:14,531
And I feel what Elden Ring gets right
is that It's just kind of unpredictable.

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There's so many different animation sets
from someone who's made video games,

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just the amount of diversity in terms
of  the movement sets and how they move.

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You remember the fights, you remember
the encounters they're so challenging

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This is like real life with Kelly Harrop.