All right. All right. Welcome back to the mission log podcast today. We have Oliver Asher on the show. Oliver Asher is president of advancing native missions, an organization that works with native missionaries and pastors to spread the gospel in over 100 countries. Oliver has recently written a book called invincible joy, and he's here to share about it today. Oliver, welcome to the show. Welcome. Thank you, Dan and Amanda for having me. It's good to be with you.

Absolutely. So glad to have you. So invincible joy. I love, I just love that title. But before we get like into it too much how would you define joy and how is that different from happiness?

So yeah, so that's a, that's a good question. So the way I would look at happiness is that happiness depends on circumstances. You know how things are going in your life, you know, so whether good or bad or, you know, just a lot of different things. So it's, it's very temporary. Whereas joy is something that's, it's deep inside of you that, you know, no matter what circumstances you're facing, you know, whether it's raining or sunny outside, you know, you're still going to have joy. And so to me, that is the difference. It's, it's temporary versus. More long lasting and really what we're talking about here with invincible joy is everlasting joy. So

Absolutely. Great. So from an early age, you've had a lot of tragedies in your life that have kind of wanted to steal your joy. Tell us about that and how those shaped your perspective on the world today.

Yeah, so so I may just take a few minutes here share a quick testimony so yeah, I was born to a teenage mother in Tampa, Florida And when I was born, my dad was in prison. And so he was actually in southern, Florida. He was on a chain gang His son had been born recently. He wanted to go see his son. So he escaped off the chain game. They tried to shoot him missed him. He ran through the Everglades, got to Tampa. He was out for a couple of months. And with me and mom, of course, you know, I was too young to really remember this, but this is, you know, from my mom. And so, yeah, so we were evidently staked out at a dairy farm. And about three months later, the SWAT team came in, broke down every door, Every window took him back to prison. He was in high security prison for about two more years in a cell about four by eight. And you know, it was considered, of course, a dangerous criminal at that point. So it must've been when I was about five, they decided to get a fresh start on life and moved to Virginia. And so really that's, you know, that's where I'm from, consider myself to be Virginian. And we moved to southwest Virginia, where my dad's family was from and really you know, began to live the simple life. Hillbilly life, country life, you know, redneck life. I know y'all probably don't have rednecks in Ohio, but we have plenty in Virginia. But anyway, so yeah, I just had a little trailer on the side of a mountain and was living the simple life and and let me tell you Dan what the trans most transformative experience of my life is when my grandmother Lily shared the good news to Jesus with my mom Carol. My mom Carol shared it with me. My brother, Danny and my sister, Missy, and immediately Dan has, even as a child, you know, seven, eight years old, I knew that I needed a savior. When mom told me about, you know, this savior that, you know, was God eternal, second person in Trinity became a human being born of the Virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, got horrible death on the cross for me, was laid into tomb, rose again and from on my behalf. Took my sins, gave me his righteousness, you know, even as a boy that young, I knew I needed a savior. I'd already lied, you know, I'd already cheated. I'd already, you know, I'd stolen a pack of pencils from a piggly wiggly and my mom made me take them back to the manager. I was crying and said, here's your pencils back, you know, so even as a little boy, I knew that I needed a savior. And so that was the most wonderful thing to happen to me. And actually, that is exactly what Paul told Timothy in second Timothy one five. He's told Timothy, the faith I saw, I saw in your grandmother, Lois and your mother, Eunice, I see in you. So I owe my faith to my grandmother, Lily, and to my mom, Carol. So just to put that right out there, that was really, you know, the, the greatest point and really the beginning of indelible joy for me. So we're living in this trailer though, country life, you know, you've heard of, you know, maybe the redneck jokes you know, you know, you might be a redneck if, you know, it takes tennis shoes and a flashlight to go to the bathroom at night. You know, that, that was us, you know, you mow your yard, you find a car you didn't realize you had, you know, you, you know, you might be a redneck. So that, that's what we're living. And then when I was 12, something significant happened. Our trailer burned down. So fortunately my mom was in the trailer, but she escaped. And so I remember coming home on the school bus though, just the trailer just was charred remains, you know, seeing that as I come around the last bend in the road and it was, it was sad. So we decided to move in a tool shed and really was a shack and we kept tools in there and had one light bulb in the middle of the room. Nothing else. No running water. No other electricity. It was actually an outhouse nearby and we were going to live in that tool shed for about six months till we could save up, you know, get a down payment, buy another trailer and six months turned into six years. So we ended up being in that, you know, tiny little you know, tool shed shack for six years. And also during that time, probably the worst certainly moment in my life is, you know, when my, I found out my sister was killed I was 16. So we moved into the shack at 12. I was 16. She was killed in a car accident. So definitely, like you said, you know, a lot of tragedy, you know, beginning of life wasn't very good, right? I mean, pregnant mom, I mean, a teenage mom and, you know, dad in prison. And then, you know, kind of going through this part of life, but you know what Dan, I learned is that God was with us and because we had Jesus in us because Jesus loved us and cared for us, it was okay and everything was going to be fine. And so on the other hand, though, God was blessing me personally. I did well in school. I started playing football, but my first football workouts were helping my dad. Cut lumber and, you know, log in the, we would, we would log in the summer, you know, cut down the trees, take them to the mill. We would cut wood up in the winter for the fireplace, you know, to sell to people. And so those are really my first football workouts. And so the coach at the high school said, Hey, why don't you come out? Well, the only thing is, Dan, we were terrible. I mean, you guys have great football where you are, but you know, not so much here. But anyway, you know, we are school. We're small country school from 7 to 12 had 400 students and again in the mountains of Virginia and we had had like four winning seasons in 20 years. So not really, you know, not a paradigm of great football. But anyway, we had a great Christian coach that moved in, really became like a father and mentor to me, and he led us to a district championship my senior year. And so I was captain of the team, and that really, you know, got me on the radar for, you know, for the schools, certainly in Virginia and some in the southeast. And so, you know, my, neither of my parents graduated from high school, so their dream was for me to graduate from high school to sort of go on to college. Was just beyond even, you know, their wildest expectation, but God opened that door up and really that was my kind of ticket out of the holler. And when I talk about chasing God's dreams for your life, you know, that was the first dream I had that God put in my heart, even as a child is like, Hey, you can, you know, you're good at this. You can, you know, you can achieve, you can, you know, you can get out of the holler and you can, you know, you know, move out and do something in the world. And, you know, and that's what the Lord provided. That was my ticket out. So I, that's how I ended up in Okay. Charlottesville, Virginia at the University of Virginia. So I played football here for years. You can imagine my first year you know going from the shack in july to to a first year dorm at uva, you know 24 7 electricity hot water food, you know, I mean they you know treat us very well And so that was a lot of culture shock going on there, but it was a good thing, you know, I didn't mind it And but anyway, graduated from university Best thing that happened to be there was I met my wife, Andrea. We got married right after college went to be missionaries in the Dominican Republic for about a year, came back and raised a family of five children here in central Virginia. And then so Dan finishing up here was really was pursuing an engineer career. I had my undergrad was environmental science. My went back to school, got my master's in engineering. And so I was, you know, going down the path of engineering. And then I had a dream that I lost my job. Two days later, my boss called me and said, Hey, we've merged and now they're gonna cut out your division. You need to start looking. So I began to pray. Okay, Lord, what's next? And that's when I was going to church with the brother Bo Beredo. He was a co founder of Advancing Native Missions. He said, hey, why don't you come by, see what we do. I went by, I saw the vision, Matthew 24, 14, when the gospel of the kingdom has been preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, people, groups, ethnos. Then the end will come. Jesus comes back. It's a good end for those that love God. And but the, the mission is what really intrigued me. It's I thought is a missionary that you had to go somewhere, you know, to be a real missionary. But what they did is they went into countries and they found the local Christians, pastor, church planters and came along beside them. So their mission to accomplish the vision of world evangelization was to encourage, equip and to advocate for fruitful, strategic native missionaries that love the Lord. They were reaching the least reach and unreached people groups in the world. And so Andre and I prayed about it. You know, at the time at four kids, they like to eat. So I was like, Lord, you know, they're all athletes too. So I was like, Lord, you gotta, you know, make sure I know the engineering path will provide for my family. This other path. I don't know. But Dan, I can tell you, God has been faithful for 26 years and that's Kind of, you know, that's my story for how I'm here today.

So much there and so inspiring too just overcoming, you know, just The situation that you found yourself in as a child, and then also just with losing your sister, Missy such a, such a tragedy, and even just living in the shack, I want to go back to that just real quick, as you said in the book, you said you divided it almost into this, like, four bedroom, four room thing, a kitchen, like a living room, a bedroom for your parents, and then also one for, I think, maybe you and your brother or something but tell us a little bit about that, because when you're, when you're younger, as you're pursuing, Like education, like that can cause a stigma that can be challenging. And I guess like, how did you go through some of those things? One kind of the poverty situation and then also your sister who was speaking into your, into your life at that time and for the listener that's struggling with their own situations, what, what are some like key characteristics or key tools or strategies for maintaining your joy in the midst of situations that are so trying?

Yeah, that's again, a great question. And, Dan, you're right. That, especially when we moved in that first year, it was really hard because literally this shack. It was made out of kind of like scrap lumber so you could literally see between, you know, the boards and so literally, like, you know, when it snowed on the outside, it was 30 on the outside. It was 30 in our room. So we'd run to the kitchen and again, we had a cook stove, wood stove for cooking and also wood stove for heating the house. And because we didn't have any electricity at that point. And so, yeah, so we'd run to those, you know, wood stove. Thank God for a good mama, you know, who would make a fire early in the morning, would get warm, run back to her room, you know, get dressed. And then finally we put up this insulation called cardboard. And so, so at least that kept the snow out, you know, from, from getting in the house. But it was, you're right. I mean, it was hard and literally, yeah, this shack was divided into the four rooms and we literally just, you know, petition it this way and then this way. And so you have the living room, the kitchen, my parents room and miss each room and our room. And literally, yeah, my brother and I, we shared a room and it was tiny. But again, going back to the joy, you know, Dan, because. Because my grandma, Lily and my mom, Carol had introduced me and us to Jesus again. It was just, it was okay. And I guess, you know, I mean, maybe some of your folks don't know what a holler is, but basically, you know, that's just a little valley between, you know, two mountain ranges, like the sun, you see the sun about 11 o'clock and then about three, it goes down because, you know, there's not very much light that gets in there, but, You know, I guess there are a lot of people in our similar situation, you know, so we're poor, but we're living among the poor. So probably didn't realize it so much. I mean, we ate a lot of pinto beans, grew a big garden, you know, ate out the garden in the summertime, we'd wash everything in a creek. That's a good thing about living in a holler. You always have good, clean, fresh water. And so, but, but it was hard. Yeah, it was hard, but somehow, some way, Dan, the Lord just, he was with us and he just maintained, you know, we maintain that joy. And again, it goes back to you know, my grandma and mom taking us to church, like every time the church doors were open, man, we were there. I mean, as a kid, you don't always. Appreciate that. Right. But I mean, if they were having a two week revival, we were there every night or, you know, Sunday night and Wednesday night, Sunday morning, of course, and all that. And, you know, but I just, you know, that was life for us. We were chasing, really chasing God, chasing, you know, where is he, you know, let's go, you know, they're having revival there, you know, whatever's going on in the church, we want to be a part of that. And so it, it made kind of the other stuff that was going on, just not that very important. You know, then on the other hand, again, somehow. Dan, I don't know why, but God just put something in me to like, want to get out of there, you know, want to go out. Not that, you know, that I, you know, it was fine if anybody wanted to stay there, but I just for, for God's reasons, you know, purposes wanted to go out and make a difference in the world. And so he just put that desire in me, but. Really, it was just knowing the Lord, Dan. And again, having those good examples of mom and grandma there and, you know, taking us to church. And again, I knew right away, you know, I developed a deep love for the word of God. And so I began to read the word of God, memorize it. And really, Dan, until today, that's what, that's how I, My choice maintained is in the morning, you know, I get up and I start quoting descriptions to myself. You know, it's not necessarily natural, right? I mean, it's not something you don't just wake up all the time. Like, Hey, man, I'm joyful and it's gonna be great day. Although my mom's very much like that. We both tend to be pretty optimistic people, but still, right? You have those cloudy days, those rainy days, whatever. But again, just going back to the Word of God, Romans eight, you know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. All things happen for good to those that love God are called according to his purpose for those he's foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified in his sight. What shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? So, you know, it's just having that really, you know, that Word of God inside. I think even as a Boy, I learned that, you know, from again, my, my mom and grandma did, you know, to, to focus on the word, to read the word, to pray fellowship with Jesus. And that's really what kept me Dan and our whole family as well.

Oh, you know, and I just want to go back to you talking about working on lumber with your dad. You know, that really stood out to me because that's what caught the attention of that Christian football coach that you talked about who came in and then said, Hey, why don't you try out for the football team? But that just reminded me so much of David tending the sheep faithfully and, you know, having time, you know, cultivating his relationship with God and cultivating skill sets at that time that would be used for later. So I just want to point that out too, for listeners that, you know, just. The importance of honoring your father and mother as you're growing up, especially, and even as an adult, it's, it's important your whole life long. It doesn't just stop at 18,

That's right.

but just, that was so neat to, you know, how God opened that door for you, you know, going from serving alongside your dad and helping and having a great work ethic instilled in you that would carry into the football, which would ultimately open that door, you know, to go to the college and all those things.

Absolutely. Amen. And that's, that's really where it all started. And, and that's a great point. I never really thought of it that way, but I knew that God allowed these circumstances, you know, for a purpose. And even today, of course, working in the mission field, you know, I've probably now traveled to maybe 40 or 50 nations and they're like, I can go any anywhere and be comfortable. You know, it's not like nothing's too hard. You know, all I got to sleep in a bamboo hut. That's okay. You know, or on a mud floor or whatever it is, doesn't really matter. Because, you know, I probably have already done that and, you know, but I wasn't thinking of it like that then. But and also the work ethic, like you said, I mean, you know, for me coming home from school every day, cutting wood until it was dark and, you know, Saturdays getting up early and doing the same thing. And you know, one time I asked my dad, how, how many loads of what you think we've called out at one time? And again, he was him and myself and my brother. He said one Saturday we did like 27 loads. You know, firewood. Just the three of us going up in the woods. Yeah, we had a system. He'd cut the tree down. I'd cut it up. My brother would trim it, cut it down, cut it up, trim it. And then we would, and my brother and I would have to bust it all. Then with the 10 mall, we'd have to split it all. So yeah, so those were definitely good football workouts. And you're right when the coach saw, Hey, here, you know, this boy looks like, you know, he might be pretty strong. Maybe we could use him on the team. It was It was a natural fit. And then he became like a father and mentor. And again, I've been blessed like that as well to have people in my life, like again, not just mom and grandma, but coaches that made such an impact on me as well. But that's a great point. That's where it started.

yeah. And I, what I think is amazing too, is how you went from kind of the situation and then how you worked hard and you just kind of kept on falling God and those doors open for you for, for the university, and then you met your wife and then you went and did some missions work, but tell us a little bit more as you kind of segued away from the, from the engineering. Kind of dream that you had and what was that like when God kind of began to put that call of doing missions? Can you speak more to that? I know that's kind of one of the purposes of your writing This book is really to help help people kind of understand what God is calling them into and you've kind of come up With a couple different questions that really help guide people in making those decisions and following God. Could you share a little bit about that as well?

Absolutely. And, and then you reminded me to have just how important it is to have a dream, right? That as a boy, God gave me a dream and football was my dream that got me out of the situation I was in. But then there came a day when that dream died. You know, I went, of course, like a lot of kids have played D1 athletics. You know, you, you're thinking you're going to the next level. You know, you're going to, I wanted to build my mom that, you know, that. Big house on the hill. And, you know, there's money left over by myself, a Corvette, but, you know, that didn't happen, you know, so my, by my third year at UVA, I knew I wasn't gonna be playing professional football. So I began to say, Lord, you know, so what, you know, what's next. But I also knew that I had a girlfriend at the time that I loved that, you know, we were going to get married. We were involved in a great local church. I was going to get a great degree. And so I knew there was more to life, you know, than football. And so, you know, God gives us dreams and they may take us to a point, but then. That dream may die and that's okay. And that's something I didn't realize at the time. I mean, it felt weird after playing football for 10 years and the next year, you know, you're not playing anymore. And it's like, wow, what do I do with myself from August through November? But then, like you said, then went on to the engineering job and that was another dream. So I'm working as an engineer. I've gone back to UVA, got my master's in engineering. And literally, again, I, my first ministry has always been to provide for my family. And I knew that as an engineer, I could do that well. And so I was working as an engineer and literally Dan had a dream, a literal dream this time, and that I was laid off. And sure enough, two days later, you know, like I said before, my boss called me and say, Hey, This is early mid nineties. We had merged with some companies and, you know, like Boston and they're like, going to phase out my department. So he said, you need to start looking. So I'm like, okay, Lord, you got my attention, right? So, I mean, now I got four kids and, you know, wife and mortgage and my wife's a stay at home mom. And so I was like, Lord, what, you know, what's next? And that's kind of the question I asked is Lord, what's next. David inquired of the Lord and that that's really what I began to do. You know, when you read and and Kings and Samuel about David and whenever he would even go out to face a god. I mean the the The philistines, you know, he would ask the lord lord. Do we do we fight him now? Do we you know, how do we fight him and god would lead him and guide him? And so I was I was really I was kind of reading his stories. So I was like lord. He spoke to david He was a man speak to me, you know, because this is a big You know, big opportunity I have. And what had happened, Dan, is I had met Bill Beredo at our local church. He was involved in missions. He's a Filipino. He's married to Marlu. They had four beautiful children, lovely family. We knew him from church and we were in Sunday school together and I knew he was in admissions, but I didn't know what he did. So when he found out I was in transition, he said, Hey, why don't you come by then, like I said, you know, I went by and I said, wow, this is awesome. However, again, I'm thinking, you know, I got four kids. They like to eat. So I need to, you know, need to be able to feed them this engineering path. I know what that will provide. And I was even interviewing for my next engineering position, but this missionary path, I have no idea. You know, it's raise your own support, live off what you get. I mean, like, wow. So, but you know, Andre and I, we prayed about it and he made it so crystal clear. to us that this was the path that he had chosen for us. And to go down this path would take care of her family, would take care of my children. Literally, I mean, those words came to my heart. It was like a rhema, you know, like a rhema word from the Lord. I mean, a fresh word, like this is what you're supposed to do. Literally, that was Sunday night in a church service at the altar. The next morning, I went in and resigned from my engineering position because I was still employed there and told him that, hey, I know what I'm going to do the rest of my life. Two weeks later, I was at Advancing Native Missions and that was in June of 1996. And so, but. You know what? A lot of what I want to encourage people to know is like again, I was even before that, Dan, I was trying to open doors up to get into ministry. My wife's Hungarian American. We thought we might go to hungry plant a church, you know, we were open to that and we had been already lived a year abroad. So living abroad was, you know, no problem for us. But that didn't open up. We looked at seminary, didn't open up, thought about passing the local church, you know, had some. Pastors that were interested in hiring me. None of that opened up. So it's like, okay, Lord, well, I'll just continue to be an engineer. What's in your hands, right? Moses, what's in your hands, take it and use it. So I said, I'll be an engineer literally about a year. After I'd made that decision gone through school, you know, I was doing very well That's when I had the dream and that's when okay lord. So my So it wasn't my timing that was important, right? So we wanted to do that, you know get involved in full time ministry. We didn't know exactly what it would be We thought we loved missions We wanted to be involved in missions and then the opportunity came to be at a and m and so it was Definitely a time of testing and and dan the the one most wonderful thing. I want to tell you God has been so faithful. All of our children are grown. They none of them starved, you know, for the four older ones with the great universities, three of them played college athletics. You know, they all married great spouses. They all love the Lord today. They're in church. They don't hate dad or God because we starved them, you know, and, and it's just God was so faithful. So he's taking care, you know, of all of us for this whole time. So I just want to encourage again, you know, listeners out there, if God. And again, it's God's timetable. Don't, don't fret too much. If you feel like, you know, this urge to do something for God or, you know, get involved or, or, or, or, you know, go into full time ministry, he's going to open the door. That's at least been my experience. When I tried to open the door, it didn't work. But as soon as he was ready, it was like, yes, this is it. And I was 30 years old when I joined A& M. So that was 26 years ago.

You mentioned something that interesting and, you know, you're talking about pursuing the dream and following God and those, but you also mentioned there are times that dreams to let dreams die. And how do you discern between the, how do you know when to let a dream die or when to keep pushing and continue to pursue that dream?

Wow. That that's a great question. So in my case, both of the times when my, Primarily two major dreams died when, you know, I wanted to be a professional football player. I just got to a point I knew by my third year UVA, if I wasn't like a starter doing really well, getting a lot of attention, you know, my chances for going on were slim to none. And honestly, that third year at UVA, I almost. Quit. I almost transferred because I was so despondent. And, but again, I, I prayed about it. I thought about it again. I had my, you know, my girlfriend, Andrea, that would become my wife had a great church. You know, it was going to get a good degree. And so for me, it was again, the Lord just made it very obvious that that dream, but he showed me that that got me to where, you know, he wanted me to be, but it was over. And then again, within an engineering dream, you know, to be a. professional engineer. That again, that was literally the Lord, you know, giving me a dream saying, Hey, you know, I want you to go a different direction. I'm calling you to a global ministry. And so for me, especially again, the big dreams, right. It was very obvious when, you know, when, when they were over, but let me say though, Dan, that you're right. I mean, like I, when I got my master's degree, I mean, we were, we had three little kids, my wife. was a home school mom. You know, we lived a very, very simple life. I mean, we were kind of, you know, again, just we were, like I said, building house in graduate school, three tiny kids. And so it was hard, you know, it was, I mean, you know, get semester to semester was really hard. And it certainly there were times even I wanted to quit, you know, from, from that program, but we, we even had our house burned down and we rebuilt the house. And like in that two year period. And when I graduated with my master's, I literally carried my fourth kid across the stage with me. Christian who is funny, 23 years later, got a master's from UVA. So, which is pretty ironic. But you know, so that, you know, so I understand pushing through, you know, and so at that point I knew, you know, God had called us, you know, for me to get the master's to, you know, and for, and Andrea was with me 100%. So we did push through, but then there comes a time. When the Lord, at least for us, just made it very clear. Hey. You know, this dream has gotten you as far as it, you know, I wanted to get you now It's time to go a different direction, but he really makes it clear. I believe otherwise you keep going for it I mean, you're right man you when god gives you a dream if there's something that won't leave you That's what I found dan is like, you know when the holy spirit is You know, is moving you and, and, and, and, and giving you a dream and you're pursuing it, then don't give up on that ever again, unless you have a clear, you know, voice from the Lord in terms of, or, you know, through, through the word of God or through, you know, circumstance or whatever, where he's telling you, you know, it's time to give it up. You hang in there, you go for it. And again, God, God will let you know, you know, the next steps.

Yeah, the first that comes to mind, unless the Lord builds a house, they labor in vain who, who built, you know, I think, like you said, as God's leading, we trust, we trust that leading and if he hasn't led you to something different, you just keep, you keep going, you know, you keep

That's right.

but well said, you know. As, as, as we're talking with you and as we, you know, maybe as the listeners listening you know, it, joy kind of radiates from you, right? I mean, that's just, that's the whole premise of your book. So like for those, for those of us who aspire to that but don't quite have that, what are some different, like, ways that we can share joy with those around us? How can we how can we go through our circumstances that we are in and still have that joy within us and then let it radiate from us?

Yeah. Great question. So for me, I know there are two things that I can control my attitude and my actions. Lots of things in the world going on and control them. Not going to worry about him. Not going to lose my joy over him. You know what's going on in different countries of the world. I mean, obviously we see a lot here today and we work in 100 countries. So I think the first Just step, Dan is realizing that what you can control are your attitude. How are you going to react to whatever comes across your desk, you know, in your day, right, how are you going to react and then what action are you going to take? And so of course I may not be able to, you know, change that uncontrollable event in the world, but I can maybe have a positive action reaction to it, right. To make a difference. So, but how do I do that day by day? Well, for me, Dan, it goes back to the morning, spending time in the word. Memorizing the word, quoting the word to myself. I believe in speaking to myself, the word of God, affirmations, declarations every morning, Romans eight, you know, I mean, that's, and, and not, and I don't trust my feelings. My feelings will lie to me. My feelings will you know, they will deceive me. You know, they, you know, if, if it's not going just right, you know, if the weather's not just right, if circumstances aren't just right, you know, if other people around me are not, you know, just right, then I can have a bad day. I can, you know, lose my joy. But if I'm always. You know, realizing that, you know, again, my joy, it comes from Jesus. And let me say then what I haven't said before is really, I mean, invincible joy is a person. His name is Jesus, you know St Augustine called him the sovereign joy. So I'm calling him invincible joy. And so when we have Jesus in us, Then that's going to come out again if but we gotta it's it's but it's work, you know It's it's day after day right getting up and you know, and going to work and saying like again, you know preaching to yourself I mean john piper I read his devotions every day. That's like, you know, you need to preach to yourself, right? Don't let yourself talk to yourself. You talk to yourself. That makes any sense, but Because you you want to you know again and and so how can I help people? Around me by filling myself up in the morning You know, with the Word of God, with joy, and then going out and giving it away. And so that's, that's for me, that's the secret, Dan. It's just, again, daily, I'm a big believer, again, in being a former athlete, you know. And it starts with thoughts, it goes to actions, it goes to habits, it goes to then, you know, a lifestyle. And ultimately, you know, to, to winning, winning a life, right? You win the day, you win the week, you win the month, you win the life. You know, and like when, again, when I was playing football, right? we Started two a day practices in August, but you know what? The season actually started on January 1 at 6 a. m. in the morning when I was in the weight room you know, pumping iron and maybe, maybe throwing up because I was, you know, so exhausted. From January 1 to August, by the time August came, I was ready. You know, and, and that's the true championship teams, you ask them the day after the championship team, I mean game, they're in the weight room, they're lifting, they're getting ready for the next season. And that's, you know, that's what I believe in spiritually as well, you know, is that we just, it's day by day brother it's like, you know, again, right, got to have those right thoughts got to have the right attitude, right actions right habits, and then out of that it's going to come, a winning is going to come. Right. You're going to win. And again, you know, we, I mean, Jesus, Jesus wanted all for us 2000 years ago, right? Truly. We have the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ who conquered death and sin and hell and the devil. And so we, we just, we can operate in that every day, but it really starts with filling ourself up. I believe with the word of God and of course, prayer and time fellowship with the Lord as well.

Amen. So well said. And I was like,

There you go. all right. All right. Welcome back to the mission log podcast today. We have Oliver Asher on the show. Oliver Asher is president of advancing native missions, an organization that works with native missionaries and pastors to spread the gospel in over 100 countries. Oliver has recently written a book called invincible joy, and he's here to share about it today. Oliver, welcome to the show. Welcome. Thank you, Dan and Amanda for having me. It's good to be with you.

Absolutely. So glad to have you. So invincible joy. I love, I just love that title. But before we get like into it too much how would you define joy and how is that different from happiness?

So yeah, so that's a, that's a good question. So the way I would look at happiness is that happiness depends on circumstances. You know how things are going in your life, you know, so whether good or bad or, you know, just a lot of different things. So it's, it's very temporary. Whereas joy is something that's, it's deep inside of you that, you know, no matter what circumstances you're facing, you know, whether it's raining or sunny outside, you know, you're still going to have joy. And so to me, that is the difference. It's, it's temporary versus. More long lasting and really what we're talking about here with invincible joy is everlasting joy. So

Absolutely. Great. So from an early age, you've had a lot of tragedies in your life that have kind of wanted to steal your joy. Tell us about that and how those shaped your perspective on the world today.

Yeah, so so I may just take a few minutes here share a quick testimony so yeah, I was born to a teenage mother in Tampa, Florida And when I was born, my dad was in prison. And so he was actually in southern, Florida. He was on a chain gang His son had been born recently. He wanted to go see his son. So he escaped off the chain game. They tried to shoot him missed him. He ran through the Everglades, got to Tampa. He was out for a couple of months. And with me and mom, of course, you know, I was too young to really remember this, but this is, you know, from my mom. And so, yeah, so we were evidently staked out at a dairy farm. And about three months later, the SWAT team came in, broke down every door, Every window took him back to prison. He was in high security prison for about two more years in a cell about four by eight. And you know, it was considered, of course, a dangerous criminal at that point. So it must've been when I was about five, they decided to get a fresh start on life and moved to Virginia. And so really that's, you know, that's where I'm from, consider myself to be Virginian. And we moved to southwest Virginia, where my dad's family was from and really you know, began to live the simple life. Hillbilly life, country life, you know, redneck life. I know y'all probably don't have rednecks in Ohio, but we have plenty in Virginia. But anyway, so yeah, I just had a little trailer on the side of a mountain and was living the simple life and and let me tell you Dan what the trans most transformative experience of my life is when my grandmother Lily shared the good news to Jesus with my mom Carol. My mom Carol shared it with me. My brother, Danny and my sister, Missy, and immediately Dan has, even as a child, you know, seven, eight years old, I knew that I needed a savior. When mom told me about, you know, this savior that, you know, was God eternal, second person in Trinity became a human being born of the Virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, got horrible death on the cross for me, was laid into tomb, rose again and from on my behalf. Took my sins, gave me his righteousness, you know, even as a boy that young, I knew I needed a savior. I'd already lied, you know, I'd already cheated. I'd already, you know, I'd stolen a pack of pencils from a piggly wiggly and my mom made me take them back to the manager. I was crying and said, here's your pencils back, you know, so even as a little boy, I knew that I needed a savior. And so that was the most wonderful thing to happen to me. And actually, that is exactly what Paul told Timothy in second Timothy one five. He's told Timothy, the faith I saw, I saw in your grandmother, Lois and your mother, Eunice, I see in you. So I owe my faith to my grandmother, Lily, and to my mom, Carol. So just to put that right out there, that was really, you know, the, the greatest point and really the beginning of indelible joy for me. So we're living in this trailer though, country life, you know, you've heard of, you know, maybe the redneck jokes you know, you know, you might be a redneck if, you know, it takes tennis shoes and a flashlight to go to the bathroom at night. You know, that, that was us, you know, you mow your yard, you find a car you didn't realize you had, you know, you, you know, you might be a redneck. So that, that's what we're living. And then when I was 12, something significant happened. Our trailer burned down. So fortunately my mom was in the trailer, but she escaped. And so I remember coming home on the school bus though, just the trailer just was charred remains, you know, seeing that as I come around the last bend in the road and it was, it was sad. So we decided to move in a tool shed and really was a shack and we kept tools in there and had one light bulb in the middle of the room. Nothing else. No running water. No other electricity. It was actually an outhouse nearby and we were going to live in that tool shed for about six months till we could save up, you know, get a down payment, buy another trailer and six months turned into six years. So we ended up being in that, you know, tiny little you know, tool shed shack for six years. And also during that time, probably the worst certainly moment in my life is, you know, when my, I found out my sister was killed I was 16. So we moved into the shack at 12. I was 16. She was killed in a car accident. So definitely, like you said, you know, a lot of tragedy, you know, beginning of life wasn't very good, right? I mean, pregnant mom, I mean, a teenage mom and, you know, dad in prison. And then, you know, kind of going through this part of life, but you know what Dan, I learned is that God was with us and because we had Jesus in us because Jesus loved us and cared for us, it was okay and everything was going to be fine. And so on the other hand, though, God was blessing me personally. I did well in school. I started playing football, but my first football workouts were helping my dad. Cut lumber and, you know, log in the, we would, we would log in the summer, you know, cut down the trees, take them to the mill. We would cut wood up in the winter for the fireplace, you know, to sell to people. And so those are really my first football workouts. And so the coach at the high school said, Hey, why don't you come out? Well, the only thing is, Dan, we were terrible. I mean, you guys have great football where you are, but you know, not so much here. But anyway, you know, we are school. We're small country school from 7 to 12 had 400 students and again in the mountains of Virginia and we had had like four winning seasons in 20 years. So not really, you know, not a paradigm of great football. But anyway, we had a great Christian coach that moved in, really became like a father and mentor to me, and he led us to a district championship my senior year. And so I was captain of the team, and that really, you know, got me on the radar for, you know, for the schools, certainly in Virginia and some in the southeast. And so, you know, my, neither of my parents graduated from high school, so their dream was for me to graduate from high school to sort of go on to college. Was just beyond even, you know, their wildest expectation, but God opened that door up and really that was my kind of ticket out of the holler. And when I talk about chasing God's dreams for your life, you know, that was the first dream I had that God put in my heart, even as a child is like, Hey, you can, you know, you're good at this. You can, you know, you can achieve, you can, you know, you can get out of the holler and you can, you know, you know, move out and do something in the world. And, you know, and that's what the Lord provided. That was my ticket out. So I, that's how I ended up in Okay. Charlottesville, Virginia at the University of Virginia. So I played football here for years. You can imagine my first year you know going from the shack in july to to a first year dorm at uva, you know 24 7 electricity hot water food, you know, I mean they you know treat us very well And so that was a lot of culture shock going on there, but it was a good thing, you know, I didn't mind it And but anyway, graduated from university Best thing that happened to be there was I met my wife, Andrea. We got married right after college went to be missionaries in the Dominican Republic for about a year, came back and raised a family of five children here in central Virginia. And then so Dan finishing up here was really was pursuing an engineer career. I had my undergrad was environmental science. My went back to school, got my master's in engineering. And so I was, you know, going down the path of engineering. And then I had a dream that I lost my job. Two days later, my boss called me and said, Hey, we've merged and now they're gonna cut out your division. You need to start looking. So I began to pray. Okay, Lord, what's next? And that's when I was going to church with the brother Bo Beredo. He was a co founder of Advancing Native Missions. He said, hey, why don't you come by, see what we do. I went by, I saw the vision, Matthew 24, 14, when the gospel of the kingdom has been preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, people, groups, ethnos. Then the end will come. Jesus comes back. It's a good end for those that love God. And but the, the mission is what really intrigued me. It's I thought is a missionary that you had to go somewhere, you know, to be a real missionary. But what they did is they went into countries and they found the local Christians, pastor, church planters and came along beside them. So their mission to accomplish the vision of world evangelization was to encourage, equip and to advocate for fruitful, strategic native missionaries that love the Lord. They were reaching the least reach and unreached people groups in the world. And so Andre and I prayed about it. You know, at the time at four kids, they like to eat. So I was like, Lord, you know, they're all athletes too. So I was like, Lord, you gotta, you know, make sure I know the engineering path will provide for my family. This other path. I don't know. But Dan, I can tell you, God has been faithful for 26 years and that's Kind of, you know, that's my story for how I'm here today.

So much there and so inspiring too just overcoming, you know, just The situation that you found yourself in as a child, and then also just with losing your sister, Missy such a, such a tragedy, and even just living in the shack, I want to go back to that just real quick, as you said in the book, you said you divided it almost into this, like, four bedroom, four room thing, a kitchen, like a living room, a bedroom for your parents, and then also one for, I think, maybe you and your brother or something but tell us a little bit about that, because when you're, when you're younger, as you're pursuing, Like education, like that can cause a stigma that can be challenging. And I guess like, how did you go through some of those things? One kind of the poverty situation and then also your sister who was speaking into your, into your life at that time and for the listener that's struggling with their own situations, what, what are some like key characteristics or key tools or strategies for maintaining your joy in the midst of situations that are so trying?

Yeah, that's again, a great question. And, and Dan, you're right. That, especially when we moved in that first year, it was really hard because literally this, this shack. It was made out of kind of like scrap lumber so you could literally see between, you know, the boards and so literally, like, you know, when it snowed on the outside, it was 30 on the outside. It was 30 in our room. So we'd run to the kitchen and again, we had a cook stove, wood stove for cooking and also wood stove for heating the house. And because we didn't have any electricity at that point. And so, yeah, so we'd run to those, you know, wood stove. Thank God for a good mama, you know, who would make a fire early in the morning, would get warm, run back to her room, you know, get dressed. And then finally we put up this insulation called cardboard. And so, so at least that kept the snow out, you know, from, from getting in the house. But it was, you're right. I mean, it was hard and literally, yeah, this shack was divided into the four rooms and we literally just, you know, petition it this way and then this way. And so you have the living room, the kitchen, my parents room and miss each room and our room. And literally, yeah, my brother and I, we shared a room and it was tiny. But again, going back to the joy, you know, Dan, because. Because my grandma, Lily and my mom, Carol had introduced me and us to Jesus again. It was just, it was okay. And I guess, you know, I mean, maybe some of your folks don't know what a holler is, but basically, you know, that's just a little valley between, you know, two mountain ranges, like the sun, you see the sun about 11 o'clock and then about three, it goes down because, you know, there's not very much light that gets in there, but, You know, I guess there are a lot of people in our similar situation, you know, so we're poor, but we're living among the poor. So probably didn't realize it so much. I mean, we ate a lot of pinto beans, grew a big garden, you know, ate out the garden in the summertime, we'd wash everything in a creek. That's a good thing about living in a holler. You always have good, clean, fresh water. And so, but, but it was hard. Yeah, it was hard, but somehow, some way, Dan, the Lord just, he was with us and he just maintained, you know, we maintain that joy. And again, it goes back to you know, my grandma and mom taking us to church, like every time the church doors were open, man, we were there. I mean, as a kid, you don't always. Appreciate that. Right. But I mean, if they were having a two week revival, we were there every night or, you know, Sunday night and Wednesday night, Sunday morning, of course, and all that. And, you know, but I just, you know, that was life for us. We were chasing, really chasing God, chasing, you know, where is he, you know, let's go, you know, they're having revival there, you know, whatever's going on in the church, we want to be a part of that. And so it, it made kind of the other stuff that was going on, just not that very important. You know, then on the other hand, again, somehow. Dan, I don't know why, but God just put something in me to like, want to get out of there, you know, want to go out. Not that, you know, that I, you know, it was fine if anybody wanted to stay there, but I just for, for God's reasons, you know, purposes wanted to go out and make a difference in the world. And so he just put that desire in me, but. Really, it was just knowing the Lord, Dan. And again, having those good examples of mom and grandma there and, you know, taking us to church. And again, I knew right away, you know, I developed a deep love for the word of God. And so I began to read the word of God, memorize it. And really, Dan, until today, that's what, that's how I, My choice maintained is in the morning, you know, I get up and I start quoting descriptions to myself. You know, it's not necessarily natural, right? I mean, it's not something you don't just wake up all the time. Like, Hey, man, I'm joyful and it's gonna be great day. Although my mom's very much like that. We both tend to be pretty optimistic people, but still, right? You have those cloudy days, those rainy days, whatever. But again, just going back to the Word of God, Romans eight, you know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. All things happen for good to those that love God are called according to his purpose for those he's foreknown, predestined, called, justified and glorified in his sight. What shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? So, you know, it's just having that really, you know, that Word of God inside. I think even as a Boy, I learned that, you know, from again, my, my mom and grandma did, you know, to, to focus on the word, to read the word, to pray fellowship with Jesus. And that's really what kept me Dan and our whole family as well.

Oh, you know, and I just want to go back to you talking about working on lumber with your dad. You know, that really stood out to me because that's what caught the attention of that Christian football coach that you talked about who came in and then said, Hey, why don't you try out for the football team? But that just reminded me so much of David tending the sheep faithfully and, you know, having time, you know, cultivating his relationship with God and cultivating skill sets at that time that would be used for later. So I just want to point that out too, for listeners that, you know, just. The importance of honoring your father and mother as you're growing up, especially, and even as an adult, it's, it's important your whole life long. It doesn't just stop at 18,

That's right.

but just, that was so neat to, you know, how God opened that door for you, you know, going from serving alongside your dad and helping and having a great work ethic instilled in you that would carry into the football, which would ultimately open that door, you know, to go to the college and all those things.

Absolutely. Amen. And that's, that's really where it all started. And, and that's a great point. I never really thought of it that way, but I knew that God allowed these circumstances, you know, for a purpose. And even today, of course, working in the mission field, you know, I've probably now traveled to maybe 40 or 50 nations and they're like, I can go any anywhere and be comfortable. You know, it's not like nothing's too hard. You know, all I got to sleep in a bamboo hut. That's okay. You know, or on a mud floor or whatever it is, doesn't really matter. Because, you know, I probably have already done that and, you know, but I wasn't thinking of it like that then. But and also the work ethic, like you said, I mean, you know, for me coming home from school every day, cutting wood until it was dark and, you know, Saturdays getting up early and doing the same thing. And you know, one time I asked my dad, how, how many loads of what you think we've called out at one time? And again, he was him and myself and my brother. He said one Saturday we did like 27 loads. You know, firewood. Just the three of us going up in the woods. Yeah, we had a system. He'd cut the tree down. I'd cut it up. My brother would trim it, cut it down, cut it up, trim it. And then we would, and my brother and I would have to bust it all. Then with the 10 mall, we'd have to split it all. So yeah, so those were definitely good football workouts. And you're right when the coach saw, Hey, here, you know, this boy looks like, you know, he might be pretty strong. Maybe we could use him on the team. It was It was a natural fit. And then he became like a father and mentor. And again, I've been blessed like that as well to have people in my life, like again, not just mom and grandma, but coaches that made such an impact on me as well. But that's a great point. That's where it started.

yeah. And I, what I think is amazing too, is how you went from kind of the situation and then how you worked hard and you just kind of kept on falling God and those doors open for you for, for the university, and then you met your wife and then you went and did some missions work, but tell us a little bit more as you kind of segued away from the, from the engineering. Kind of dream that you had and what was that like when God kind of began to put that call of doing missions? Can you speak more to that? I know that's kind of one of the purposes of your writing This book is really to help help people kind of understand what God is calling them into and you've kind of come up With a couple different questions that really help guide people in making those decisions and following God. Could you share a little bit about that as well?

Absolutely. And, and then you reminded me to have just how important it is to have a dream, right? That as a boy, God gave me a dream and football was my dream that got me out of the situation I was in. But then there came a day when that dream died. You know, I went, of course, like a lot of kids have played D1 athletics. You know, you, you're thinking you're going to the next level. You know, you're going to, I wanted to build my mom that, you know, that. Big house on the hill. And, you know, there's money left over by myself, a Corvette, but, you know, that didn't happen, you know, so my, by my third year at UVA, I knew I wasn't gonna be playing professional football. So I began to say, Lord, you know, so what, you know, what's next. But I also knew that I had a girlfriend at the time that I loved that, you know, we were going to get married. We were involved in a great local church. I was going to get a great degree. And so I knew there was more to life, you know, than football. And so, you know, God gives us dreams and they may take us to a point, but then. That dream may die and that's okay. And that's something I didn't realize at the time. I mean, it felt weird after playing football for 10 years and the next year, you know, you're not playing anymore. And it's like, wow, what do I do with myself from August through November? But then, like you said, then went on to the engineering job and that was another dream. So I'm working as an engineer. I've gone back to UVA, got my master's in engineering. And literally, again, I, my first ministry has always been to provide for my family. And I knew that as an engineer, I could do that well. And so I was working as an engineer and literally Dan had a dream, a literal dream this time, and that I was laid off. And sure enough, two days later, you know, like I said before, my boss called me and say, Hey, This is early mid nineties. We had merged with some companies and, you know, like Boston and they're like, going to phase out my department. So he said, you need to start looking. So I'm like, okay, Lord, you got my attention, right? So, I mean, now I got four kids and, you know, wife and mortgage and my wife's a stay at home mom. And so I was like, Lord, what, you know, what's next? And that's kind of the question I asked is Lord, what's next. David inquired of the Lord and that that's really what I began to do. You know, when you read and and Kings and Samuel about David and whenever he would even go out to face a god. I mean the the The philistines, you know, he would ask the lord lord. Do we do we fight him now? Do we you know, how do we fight him and god would lead him and guide him? And so I was I was really I was kind of reading his stories. So I was like lord. He spoke to david He was a man speak to me, you know, because this is a big You know, big opportunity I have. And what had happened, Dan, is I had met Bill Beredo at our local church. He was involved in missions. He's a Filipino. He's married to Marlu. They had four beautiful children, lovely family. We knew him from church and we were in Sunday school together and I knew he was in admissions, but I didn't know what he did. So when he found out I was in transition, he said, Hey, why don't you come by then, like I said, you know, I went by and I said, wow, this is awesome. However, again, I'm thinking, you know, I got four kids. They like to eat. So I need to, you know, need to be able to feed them this engineering path. I know what that will provide. And I was even interviewing for my next engineering position, but this missionary path, I have no idea. You know, it's raise your own support, live off what you get. I mean, like, wow. So, but you know, Andre and I, we prayed about it and he made it so crystal clear. to us that this was the path that he had chosen for us. And to go down this path would take care of her family, would take care of my children. Literally, I mean, those words came to my heart. It was like a rhema, you know, like a rhema word from the Lord. I mean, a fresh word, like this is what you're supposed to do. Literally, that was Sunday night in a church service at the altar. The next morning, I went in and resigned from my engineering position because I was still employed there and told him that, hey, I know what I'm going to do the rest of my life. Two weeks later, I was at Advancing Native Missions and that was in June of 1996. And so, but. You know what? A lot of what I want to encourage people to know is like again, I was even before that, Dan, I was trying to open doors up to get into ministry. My wife's Hungarian American. We thought we might go to hungry plant a church, you know, we were open to that and we had been already lived a year abroad. So living abroad was, you know, no problem for us. But that didn't open up. We looked at seminary, didn't open up, thought about passing the local church, you know, had some. Pastors that were interested in hiring me. None of that opened up. So it's like, okay, Lord, well, I'll just continue to be an engineer. What's in your hands, right? Moses, what's in your hands, take it and use it. So I said, I'll be an engineer literally about a year. After I'd made that decision gone through school, you know, I was doing very well That's when I had the dream and that's when okay lord. So my So it wasn't my timing that was important, right? So we wanted to do that, you know get involved in full time ministry. We didn't know exactly what it would be We thought we loved missions We wanted to be involved in missions and then the opportunity came to be at a and m and so it was Definitely a time of testing and and dan the the one most wonderful thing. I want to tell you God has been so faithful. All of our children are grown. They none of them starved, you know, for the four older ones with the great universities, three of them played college athletics. You know, they all married great spouses. They all love the Lord today. They're in church. They don't hate dad or God because we starved them, you know, and, and it's just God was so faithful. So he's taking care, you know, of all of us for this whole time. So I just want to encourage again, you know, listeners out there, if God. And again, it's God's timetable. Don't, don't fret too much. If you feel like, you know, this urge to do something for God or, you know, get involved or, or, or, or, you know, go into full time ministry, he's going to open the door. That's at least been my experience. When I tried to open the door, it didn't work. But as soon as he was ready, it was like, yes, this is it. And I was 30 years old when I joined A& M. So that was 26 years ago.

You mentioned something that interesting and, you know, you're talking about pursuing the dream and following God and those, but you also mentioned there are times that dreams to let dreams die. And how do you discern between the, how do you know when to let a dream die or when to keep pushing and continue to pursue that dream?

Wow. That that's a great question. So in my case, both of the times when my, Primarily two major dreams died when, you know, I wanted to be a professional football player. I just got to a point I knew by my third year UVA, if I wasn't like a starter doing really well, getting a lot of attention, you know, my chances for going on were slim to none. And honestly, that third year at UVA, I almost. Quit. I almost transferred because I was so despondent. And, but again, I, I prayed about it. I thought about it again. I had my, you know, my girlfriend, Andrea, that would become my wife had a great church. You know, it was going to get a good degree. And so for me, it was again, the Lord just made it very obvious that that dream, but he showed me that that got me to where, you know, he wanted me to be, but it was over. And then again, within an engineering dream, you know, to be a. professional engineer. That again, that was literally the Lord, you know, giving me a dream saying, Hey, you know, I want you to go a different direction. I'm calling you to a global ministry. And so for me, especially again, the big dreams, right. It was very obvious when, you know, when, when they were over, but let me say though, Dan, that you're right. I mean, like I, when I got my master's degree, I mean, we were, we had three little kids, my wife. was a home school mom. You know, we lived a very, very simple life. I mean, we were kind of, you know, again, just we were, like I said, building house in graduate school, three tiny kids. And so it was hard, you know, it was, I mean, you know, get semester to semester was really hard. And it certainly there were times even I wanted to quit, you know, from, from that program, but we, we even had our house burned down and we rebuilt the house. And like in that two year period. And when I graduated with my master's, I literally carried my fourth kid across the stage with me. Christian who is funny, 23 years later, got a master's from UVA. So, which is pretty ironic. But you know, so that, you know, so I understand pushing through, you know, and so at that point I knew, you know, God had called us, you know, for me to get the master's to, you know, and for, and Andrea was with me 100%. So we did push through, but then there comes a time. When the Lord, at least for us, just made it very clear. Hey. You know, this dream has gotten you as far as it, you know, I wanted to get you now It's time to go a different direction, but he really makes it clear. I believe otherwise you keep going for it I mean, you're right man you when god gives you a dream if there's something that won't leave you That's what I found dan is like, you know when the holy spirit is You know, is moving you and, and, and, and, and giving you a dream and you're pursuing it, then don't give up on that ever again, unless you have a clear, you know, voice from the Lord in terms of, or, you know, through, through the word of God or through, you know, circumstance or whatever, where he's telling you, you know, it's time to give it up. You hang in there, you go for it. And again, God, God will let you know, you know, the next steps.

Yeah, the first that comes to mind, unless the Lord builds a house, they labor in vain who, who built, you know, I think, like you said, as God's leading, we trust, we trust that leading and if he hasn't led you to something different, you just keep, you keep going, you know, you keep

That's right.

but well said, you know. As, as, as we're talking with you and as we, you know, maybe as the listeners listening you know, it, joy kind of radiates from you, right? I mean, that's just, that's the whole premise of your book. So like for those, for those of us who aspire to that but don't quite have that, what are some different, like, ways that we can share joy with those around us? How can we how can we go through our circumstances that we are in and still have that joy within us and then let it radiate from us?

Yeah. Great question. So for me, I know there are two things that I can control my attitude and my actions. Lots of things in the world going on and control them. Not going to worry about him. Not going to lose my joy over him. You know what's going on in different countries of the world. I mean, obviously we see a lot here today and we work in 100 countries. So I think the first Just step, Dan is realizing that what you can control are your attitude. How are you going to react to whatever comes across your desk, you know, in your day, right, how are you going to react and then what action are you going to take? And so of course I may not be able to, you know, change that uncontrollable event in the world, but I can maybe have a positive action reaction to it, right. To make a difference. So, but how do I do that day by day? Well, for me, Dan, it goes back to the morning, spending time in the word. Memorizing the word, quoting the word to myself. I believe in speaking to myself, the word of God, affirmations, declarations every morning, Romans eight, you know, I mean, that's, and, and not, and I don't trust my feelings. My feelings will lie to me. My feelings will you know, they will deceive me. You know, they, you know, if, if it's not going just right, you know, if the weather's not just right, if circumstances aren't just right, you know, if other people around me are not, you know, just right, then I can have a bad day. I can, you know, lose my joy. But if I'm always. You know, realizing that, you know, again, my joy, it comes from Jesus. And let me say then what I haven't said before is really, I mean, invincible joy is a person. His name is Jesus, you know St Augustine called him the sovereign joy. So I'm calling him invincible joy. And so when we have Jesus in us, Then that's going to come out again if but we gotta it's it's but it's work, you know It's it's day after day right getting up and you know, and going to work and saying like again, you know preaching to yourself I mean john piper I read his devotions every day. That's like, you know, you need to preach to yourself, right? Don't let yourself talk to yourself. You talk to yourself. That makes any sense, but Because you you want to you know again and and so how can I help people? Around me by filling myself up in the morning You know, with the Word of God, with joy, and then going out and giving it away. And so that's, that's for me, that's the secret, Dan. It's just, again, daily, I'm a big believer, again, in being a former athlete, you know. And it starts with thoughts, it goes to actions, it goes to habits, it goes to then, you know, a lifestyle. And ultimately, you know, to, to winning, winning a life, right? You win the day, you win the week, you win the month, you win the life. You know, and like when, again, when I was playing football, right? we Started two a day practices in August, but you know what? The season actually started on January 1 at 6 a. m. in the morning when I was in the weight room you know, pumping iron and maybe, maybe throwing up because I was, you know, so exhausted. From January 1 to August, by the time August came, I was ready. You know, and, and that's the true championship teams, you ask them the day after the championship team, I mean game, they're in the weight room, they're lifting, they're getting ready for the next season. And that's, you know, that's what I believe in spiritually as well, you know, is that we just, it's day by day brother it's like, you know, again, right, got to have those right thoughts got to have the right attitude, right actions right habits, and then out of that it's going to come, a winning is going to come. Right. You're going to win. And again, you know, we, I mean, Jesus, Jesus wanted all for us 2000 years ago, right? Truly. We have the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ who conquered death and sin and hell and the devil. And so we, we just, we can operate in that every day, but it really starts with filling ourself up. I believe with the word of God and of course, prayer and time fellowship with the Lord as well.

Amen. So well said.