[00:00:00] Hannah: All right. Well, Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:00:07] Charlotte: Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:10] Hannah: I came to know you, Charlotte, as a psychologist who lives in very exotic places. You just mentioned that you're in South Africa at the moment. And, I really resonate with your, with your posts and with your content. I feel like it's. So refreshing, unconventional at times, the way you talk about mindset, self talk, limiting beliefs.

Talk to me a little bit about what life looks like for you right now and how you came to choose mindset as something that you're passionate about and wanting to pursue, teach and coach.

[00:00:43] Charlotte: Ooh. I feel like those are two big questions, but, in a, in a nutshell, what life looks like right now is I run my own online business where I coach people from all over the world. And because I can do that all online, or I set it up in a way that I can do it all online, I take full advantage of that and travel to places that make my soul happy, which are usually warm and sunny places, but, sometimes also just where friends are or whatever that is.

So that's kind of what. My life looks like and why you see me in exotic places. sometimes I guess. and then the way I got to mindset, honestly, it was just, I got so tired of seeing. Being so many, usually brilliant women. I will also like, I've also worked with men and that happens as well, but usually it's brilliant women who are so, so capable and can do so many wonderful things and change the world, but because they're so stuck in their heads, they often don't, and I, I think I consider myself one of them, in the past.

So I think that I've gone through my own journey of like getting out of my own way quite a bit. And I just, you know. Whether it was friends or people that I met within my degree or my previous work, like, it was just like, it seemed like this really obvious pattern. And then the more I learned about how much our minds really, you know, impact how we show up in the world and what we can achieve, the more stuck into it I got.

Yeah, that's how we got here.

[00:02:10] Hannah: Yeah, I really like that. It fits really well with my audience and with me. We just got to speaking a little bit about introversion versus extroversion. I feel like there's a pattern that continues here in a lot of us. You know, having, you know, being brilliant and having great capabilities, but we're often in our own way of, of really pursuing them of starting the business of grabbing for the promotion of asking for the, for the project and, whatever it is that, that we're looking to do.

So it feels like we're very well aligned here.

[00:02:47] Charlotte: I would agree. And, you know, actually, I would say both maybe for introversion extroversion versus women and men, the, the world is not set up to necessarily cater to to them at the same rates. Right? In that sense, like, I think, especially in the corporate world, but also in the business world, like, it's very much an extroverted world.

What gets valued typically. And I think there's still a lot of work to be done to level that out. Right. because it has nothing to do with the actual brilliance, right? I'm sure we're going to get into that, now, but it's just a matter of, like, the loudest one is often associated to be the most capable one, stuff like that.

And I think in a similar way, women were taught certain things, that also contribute to them holding back a little bit more versus, you know. Again, most men, I hate generalizing, but there's a certain extent to also how the world's been constructed.

[00:03:37] Hannah: yeah, 100%. now, I often feel like mindset is something that, we're very, very conscious about. I feel like everyone will have heard about mindset of the importance of mindset. Everybody will have. A certain degree of knowledge and awareness as to why mindset is important, but it still feels like we're often falling into the same traps, the same thought patterns, the same habits.

Now, when it comes to our careers, I feel like there's often this sentiment of. I'm feeling stuck. I'm feeling like nothing ever changes. I'm in the same place as I was last year. What do you think makes us feel stuck in our careers? What trips us up? Why don't we pursue mindset in a way that we all know we should?

[00:04:30] Charlotte: I feel like you ask really complex questions, but I'll try and go step by step. so I think that, you know, it's actually surprising to me when you say we're all very conscious of mindset. I think I see where you're coming from. And at the same time, I think the way that we're conscious of it is very surface level.

So, like, we all know, like, oh, yeah, I should, like, listen to myself, talk or whatever. and that's kind of where it stops. But, like, to do the digging into, like, okay, what are these unconscious limiting beliefs that you already mentioned and stuff like that that are driving me?that often takes a stillness and a patience.

That we don't always have, like, I see this a lot where, like, even when I work with coaching clients, often a huge chunk at the start, we'll just be building that awareness because if we don't know what we're changing, we can't change it. And so, I think that the degree to which we're conscious is maybe sometimes not enough, but any other ways, I think, if we're stuck or feeling stuck, I always wonder.

What we're paying attention to, like, are we only paying attention to everything we don't have yet? Something I see very often as well is like, this comparison against the ideal versus the comparison to. You know, what was in the past, whether it's. I mean, I see it all around really where. Because we're such capable, brilliant, high achieving people again, often that, you know, it's also not good enough until it's like, perfect or ideal or whatever it is.

And so we always compare against that. And that creates this. real gap that makes us feel like we're still, we still haven't gotten there to this ideal place versus seeing, you know, where we have gotten and noticing our progress and celebrating those little steps and achievements and wins, is something that I think often trips us up and makes us feel stuck when really we objectively aren't.

[00:06:18] Hannah: Yeah. There's also something in that you mentioned that almost makes me, calls me out personally is that stillness and patience, which when we're looking to change something in our careers, I'm usually somebody who likes to take action and who likes things to change quite quickly and to see a result quite quickly.

And that trips me up personally. Now when you say stillness and patience and working on, some of the underlying subconscious, things that trip us up, some of the self talk that isn't really helpful. It feels like it's coming to bite us later on in the process if we jump too quickly into action. I'm totally talking about myself here, but I'm sure this resonates with others as well.

So I'm almost wondering, how do you, how do you approach stillness? And patience. Is that something that you, practice on a daily basis or something that you would recommend as like step one in any major change you want to make in your career? What does it look like to, become still? What are even some of the questions that you would, ask yourself or recommend everybody asks themselves when it comes to wanting to drive change?

[00:07:29] Charlotte: I think stillness has levels. Like there is a stillness that you want to practice every day and that often just is, you know, can I be still with my thoughts and not attached to them? So I think that's where they're Mindfulness practices really come in handy, right? It doesn't mean you have to meditate for two hours or whatever, but it means that you find a practice where you learn to relate to your thoughts differently, because something that a lot of us do is like, there's this thought of like, I'm not X, Y, and Z, right?

And we literally are attached to it. And so what these practices, these stillness practices in some ways can teach us is just becoming more of the observer, which is, you know, very, I don't know if you've. I've spoken about mindfulness or meditation on this podcast, but like, it's very much that concept of like, I am not the one who is the thought I'm just the one watching the thought. And there's a huge difference in that. And I think that is an ongoing practice.that, you know, it's very, very worth practicing daily or regularly. I would say to people, like. I don't want anyone not doing it because I think they can't do it daily. Like, there's a benefit if you do it twice a week as well.

so don't, you know, hold yourself again to this ideal of like, ideally, I would meditate 2 hours every single day, but instead choose something that will work for you and then practice that stillness there. But the stillness I think I was referring to earlier is more so this stillness that, has to be there and it's an uncomfortable stillness because it's these questions like, For example, like, what do I really want?

Or, you know, is this a career aligned with what I'm trying to do in my life? I don't know, questions like that, that might prompt the desire for a change, typically create a void, especially if we're being honest with ourselves. So what I often see is, you know, people come in and they have all these, like, oh, I did the thing, you know, I got the career, I climbed the ladder, I got the house, I got the, you know, I got all the things, but why do I still feel this way?

Because you've just followed a script, right? That, yeah, it works for some, like there's, there's value in that script. It works for some, but it's not a step by step, play by play for every single person. And so then you end up in this void when you start asking yourself, well, what do you, what do I really want?

Because often the question doesn't come that quickly. Like there's a lot of conditioning and a lot of beliefs around like what I should And so allowing yourself to just want. is often met at first with like, I don't know what I want. Oh my gosh, what does that say about me? And then it creates this void

[00:09:56] Hannah: want.

[00:09:57] Charlotte: or that.

Yeah. And it can honestly, it can also be scary to not know. Like I, again, that's something I see very commonly is like, well, but I don't have a purpose. And then immediately I make that mean something about myself versus how much time have I legitimately spent with this question before, you know, I just followed someone else's path or the path that, you know, someone else advised me on whatever that is, or that I thought might be what I wanted, but now has turned out not to be.

And so I think it is that stillness that is uncomfortable because there's typically a void. And so instead of rushing to. Well, okay, then maybe I'll just try this kind of thing, like, to maybe quick action, to really be able to sit with those uncomfortable questions. The questions themselves are really helpful, but it might be uncomfortable because you don't have an immediate answer.

And so then that can look like all kinds of things that can look like, you know, do you go deep into a values exploration? Do you have to do work on your strengths and really leaning into, like, what makes you energize? What makes you happy? What brings you fulfillment? What brings you to flow, right?

There's a lot of things that we can explore there from. Really based on positive psychology, to then eventually maybe find on, like, find an answer. I always find that sounds too. Like, there's 1 answer. There isn't 1 answer. There's just 1 way to live out all these things within you. Right? There's just multiple ways.

1 that you can choose from that. I feel like that a little bit.

[00:11:20] Hannah: that's all right. I'm good.

[00:11:23] Charlotte: like, so what I'm saying is there are multiple ways, but we obviously have to choose one to go with. and so, yeah, that's the stillness I was referring to at a bigger level, but there's definitely also practice to stillness every day.

[00:11:36] Hannah: yeah, you mentioned positive psychology. What is that?

[00:11:42] Charlotte: I'm glad you asked positive psychology is well, it's hard to I think it's still helpful. It's not it's not complete as a, as a sort of explanation, but what's typically sort of a helpful image is to think of quote, unquote, traditional psychology. So, we're talking clinical psychology, especially focusing a lot on people who.

Are not doing well, mentally. Right? So there's this image of a scale from minus 5 to 0 and traditional psychology takes it from minus 5 to 0. and so then. A few decades ago, Martin Seligman, which is really the founder of positive psychology kind of stepped in and said, well, hang on. We have all these people who are like at zero.

Like, they're doing fine, but they're not flourishing. They're not like really living like the best that they can or feeling the most fulfilled that they can. And so essentially, if we stay on that scale, positive psychology kind of covers the. 0 to 5 aspect. So, you know, it's, it's, and again, that's not complete because there's also a distinction to be made between mental health and mental well being.

But think of positive psychology as like covering the mental well being, aspect of like, it's really, I think we all know. Either people in our lives or we know ourselves to have been in situations where, you know, if you get asked, how are you, you are just like, yeah, yeah, it's all right. Can't

[00:13:03] Hannah: We're at a zero.

[00:13:04] Charlotte: It's fine. Right? Like, whatever. We're at a zero. Like, we're not, nothing's entirely wrong. But also if I like confronted you with like, all right, well, if this was. The last week you get on this earth, is this how you want to spend it? Like a really crazy question like that? Obviously, you'd be like, well, no, hang on.

I think there's other things I would want to, you know, do more of or have have explored or whatever it is. And so how can we lean more into the flourishing aspect, bringing people up a bit on that scale, rather than just going through life entirely being. Fine.

[00:13:35] Hannah: Yeah. I love that visual of like the scale from minus five to plus five. And then the zero is where we, probably the majority of us find themselves at in terms of like, we're, we're fine. We're, we're, we, we feel kind of stuck in our ways, in our careers, but we're fine. And that often comes with. a little bit of shame I feel even of like, Oh, I should be, I should be, I know I should be content and I should be happy.

I should not be complaining about how I feel because I'm not feeling, I'm not between minus five and zero, but it's almost like allowing ourselves to even look at what a plus five could feel like, could look like. And, even daring to explore What would really make me happy? What, you know, doesn't necessarily follow the societal script that you mentioned, but what would really make me happy?

And that feels like a bit of a scary thing to explore too, in terms of like, oh, you know, Should I be, should I dare to go there? Do I, should I just not be, you know, happy with where I'm at right now? all these sorts of things. So, I think it's really important what you say around taking that time and daring to look at what could be possible.

Yeah,

[00:14:54] Charlotte: love how you just, play that back to me because that's exactly what it is. It's it. And I think something that I really want to say to anyone listening to it. It's like, you can do both. Like, you can be grateful for what you have right now. And still do that. Like, I think often we kind of, like you said, there's like shame or like almost embarrassment of like, oh, I shouldn't be, you know, it's like, I have this great job or this great salary or this great title or whatever it is.

Right. I have all these things and my colleagues are great. Like, there's, there's so many things that that could totally be true. And it could also be true that you want to explore if there's a, you know, some, some way to make that plus 5. Even if it's already at plus one, right? and both of those things can be true at the same time.

Like, just you thinking about it, or you looking forward, or even exploring it doesn't mean that you're not being grateful for what you have necessarily. Like, sometimes it does with some people it does, but it's like, those 2 things can coexist. I think such an important thing to learn in general is just this duality of like, life exists somewhere in between.

And so those 2 things can be true at the same time. And if we give ourselves permission for that, if we can say. Like, yeah, it's, you know, there's really positive aspect about where I'm at right now, and I'm enjoying the content of this work or my colleagues again, whatever it is, I can say that and also say, but I don't think that that's all there is.

I think there might be more out there. I think there might be something else where I feel even more flow or more meaning or whatever that is that I might be still looking after and then to, yeah, and then to give myself the stillness To sit with that, with an open curiosity versus a, I don't have the answer to that.

Oh, my gosh, something must be wrong with me kind of

[00:16:40] Hannah: yeah, yeah. I think that 1st step really is to dare to look at the what does the plus 5 look like? But then the next thing I run into is like, oftentimes This scenario feels like a big mountain in front of me. It's almost like, oh, well, that feels like a big change. Like, is that even possible for me? Is that feasible?

Now it feels, you know, scary at times to do. Sometimes it would mean a big life change. And what, What I perceive you often talk about is like, break it up into little steps and, if you know, just, just start somewhere and then it becomes less and less scary over time. Talk to me about this element of like, how do we make the mountain in front of us a little more achievable?

[00:17:28] Charlotte: I think the answer is in the metaphor of, like, how do you climb the mountain step by step? Right? Like, the only way to walk up it is to go 1 step at a time and, In that sense, it's often where our focus lies. So,there's a lot of people that I meet, at least that's kind of skip the part in between, because it is, it's a work part.

Like, there's an effort part. It's kind of like, this is why we have, you know, project managers or something like that, because there's a project and then we need to think about, all right, what's the timeline for this? Who's doing what? Et cetera, et cetera. Right. And when we approach change in our lives, it has to look at Like there has to be an element of that as well, and often we kind of skip that part.

And so then it's just this big thing that I want to do. And we see it all the time with, you know, for example, New Year's resolutions, where it's like someone like wants to whatever, be the fittest person ever. And then they're like, all right, all in every day, whatever. And it's not sustainable because they've just jumped, like they've tried to jump the mountain versus taking one step after the other, going to the first base camp, the second base camp.

So kind of thinking, I'm going to lean into this metaphor a bit. I'm thinking, you know, what are my base camps? Like, what is the first base camp? What is the second base camp? What's the third one? Before I eventually reach that peak. And that might also include, you know, at base camp one, I need to rest for a certain amount of time and see what that feels like.

And do I still want to continue? Do I still feel like this is the mountain I want to be climbing? Because the other thing that I think is always a thing we need to keep in mind, that answer, right? That stillness. That's not a one time thing. It can be that you have that stillness, you explore your values, you do all these things, and then you think, all right, this is the mountain I want to climb, right?

And what I wouldn't want is for someone to jump into a sunk cost fallacy, which is where we think like, well, I've already come this, this far up the mountain, so I must now finish climbing this mountain. If it feels really misaligned, there's no point to that. So really having those check ins all throughout.

but yeah, it's really not skipping that part that work part of, like, almost project management. For yourself, where you're breaking it down and maybe setting deadlines for yourself, maybe getting other people involved for accountability. Getting support where you need it, getting more education, if that's what you need, right?

Like, just chunking that and making a little base camps out of it.

[00:19:43] Hannah: I really love the metaphors that you bring. there is

[00:19:45] Charlotte: you brought it.

[00:19:46] Hannah: and there's something about the word base camp. It feels very calming and soothing for me. Like almost like, Oh, that's, you know, it feels homey at base camp. It's almost like, you know, I get to this place and there I get to rest a little bit.

I get to, you know, replenish my energy. it feels more comfortable for me. It's like almost as like, it allows me to stretch out of my comfort zone, but doesn't overwhelm me to a point where I want to go back.aboard mission. So I, I really like base camps now. Going back to mindset of like, you know, we often talk about growth mindsets and in an ideal world, what does your mindset look like?

What I'm wondering is, does it ever feel different than it does? When we stand in front of that mountain, like at any point during the milestones that we hit, do we ever feel more confident? Do we ever feel like we are in control? Like we've got it all figured out, or we've just gotten so much better at this, or do we just need to accept a certain discomfort, a certain feeling of being out of control, not being able to, you know, Have it all under our control.

What does, what does this look like? Does mindset ever feel better when we achieve what we're looking to achieve?

[00:21:09] Charlotte: I think, I think you might not like my answer, but the answer is actually both of what you said is true. So you will feel more confident and you will feel more capable and also, there will always be a degree of discomfort. So you mentioned growth mindset, right? And growth mindset really entails the growth mindset is never ending and it means that you've understood that, you know, even if you're now able to do this better.

Yeah. You can get even better with more effort, time, whatever. but I think that the ultimate confidence comes from knowing that you can figure it out. And that will come once you figured out a few things, once you have climbed to a few base camps, once you've done a few things that felt really scary and uncomfortable, the confidence of trusting that you can figure something out.

And that does go in line with growth mindset, because if I have a growth mindset, I believe that I can change. Right? I believe that my abilities are not fixed. I don't think that I'm just this level of intelligent and so I can't do certain things or that I'm just this level of whatever it means that I really believe I can learn anything.

And that brings. You know, maybe a different kind of confidence than the one that you were alluding to there, but it's, it's, it's this really peaceful, quiet confidence of, like, I trust myself. No matter how it turns out, and I think, I mean, in my world, that's the ultimate confidence because confidence shouldn't be so based on.

Oh, I'm really good at this. I'm really good at this because. Any of that could fall away. Like, you know, technology is ever advancing. Maybe technology comes and takes that away from me tomorrow. And so then I need to make sure that, you know, I still trust myself to be able to create something else or build something else or lean into this strength a different way, whatever that is.

And that brings me a confidence that makes it a lot less shakable than if it's attached to a certain skill or a certain change that I've implemented.

[00:22:59] Hannah: Yeah. I like quiet confidence and like this element of like trusting yourself and finding that inner confidence. It's not about what it looks like from the outside. I think all too often we're focused on, you know, do I look confident? Do I walk into this room like, I've got it. that's what I often think of in, in corporate confidence, is what, how I think about it.

But the way you describe it, it makes so much more sense. And it's almost like the, the way we get there is like we build little precedence of like, oh, I've achieved this thing, now I can, that gives me the confidence to achieve the next big thing. So, it's almost like. proving it to ourselves and building that trust within us, rather than just kind of making it look like we've got it all figured out.

Is that what you're

[00:23:53] Charlotte: For sure, for sure. I mean, I think the making it look like, is, is always a little faulty. And to be honest, I think that actually. I'm not sure this is true for your audience, but actually, like, a lot of people that I work with, like, I think we could all argue that objectively speaking, they look confident. But they haven't made the internal shifts to feel that way. And so they, they still always feel like frantically behind kind of thing or frantically, like, they need to show up this way. And they put a lot of pressure on themselves to be perfect or whatever that is. Right?because that's only what they've based it on.

And that may have even been successful. Like oftentimes it's successful, like people. Might really feel like that person's super confident. Like you would be surprised how many people look at you or anyone else listening and think, wow, she's so confident. Because they don't have the internal view. They only have what you're projecting on the outside.

And it's the same for us, right? Like maybe there's people in your life that you think, wow, I wish I had their confidence. But you only see the outside. You have no idea how they might be thinking about themselves in their minds or how they're doubting. And when you look at them a little bit too long, they think, oh my gosh, like, she thinks X, Y, and Z negative about me while you were sitting there thinking, like, wow, I wish I just thought that.

had that presence or whatever, right? Like it's, it's completely in the interpretation.

[00:25:14] Hannah: Yeah. It feels like there's a lot to be done on like the inside, which is something that my audience is really, really good at. I would argue that introverts are inherently good at like looking inwards being, you know, reflecting, intuitive, like, sensing into what it is they need and what it is they truly want.

So, None of this feels to me like it is unachievable, but it is this, it is this thing that we need to like actively pursue, isn't it? Mindset in terms of like, oh, you need to take some time for it. You need to give it room and you need to allow yourself to go places that may be scary. And one of the things you mentioned is like, being your own.

best friend or being kinder to yourself in the process? you know, speaking to yourself like you would to somebody you really, really like and respect, which is not often the case, is it?how do we go about self talk and, and speaking to ourselves, being kinder to ourselves? Is that something like, is that something that you personally went through as well?

Have you learned to be kinder with yourself or be your own, be your own friend?

[00:26:25] Charlotte: I don't know. People probably can't see my face, but I just went like a big yes, because, I definitely have, like, I think, I, I know. Still fall into this, like, I think I would never want people to think like, oh, 1 day, it'll just magically go away. Like, this is ongoing yourself. Talk. We'll keep involving with the new challenges or setbacks or feedback or whatever else you get.

Right? It's kind of like, it's a dynamic thing, but I used to be a lot more critical of myself until I just kind of understood. I didn't know why I was so at war with myself in that sense. And, you know, don't ask me when the first time was that I considered this or how exactly, but like, I mean, I think it's something that we hear often.

Right. and it's also something like that really made me sort of brought me to the point where I shared on this, on the Instagram account that you found me on as well. Like when I first started it, I was like, more people need to know how common this is because like, it feels like I have the background view, right.

People tell me they're inside. Not in a weird way, but, like, they tell me their inner workings of the mind often. Right? And everyone feels like it's just them. And that is why they get upset with themselves. Again, we have the outside projection of other people and we think, oh, they have it all together.

They're so confident. They're X, Y, and Z. And then we have the internal thing, and then we're like, well, you're not that way. So something is wrong with you. And that's when we enter that battle with ourselves. And we're like, well, you must now be different and you should try harder. You should do this and blah, blah, blah.

These rules for ourselves.and when we kind of learn that, like, we're all in the same boat, and I literally have not met a single person who doesn't have self doubt or these things, right? It's almost like it gives us permission to be like, oh, so nothing is wrong with me. And I don't need to be so hard on myself, but I can explore this.

Like, there's a, there's a permission. In, in that common humanity and it's a key part of self compassion, which is kind of like the, the framework behind the, the kind self talk is to recognize and acknowledge the common humanity in that.and so that's something I think that for me really helped. And I think it came a lot also from like traveling and seeing, you know, how all those rules that I was comparing myself against, like, you know, I should be doing this and I should, that, and I should, that, like they kind of became more clear to me by seeing different cultures where the rules were completely different.

And I think that's a very important process. I also always take my clients through is like, most of the time we don't even know. Why we're being so critical with ourselves. We don't even notice all of the rules that we have decided on for ourselves. They're not always our rules. Sometimes they're, you know, society's rules, our parents rules, whatever our teachers rules, something that just stuck with us.

But to really sit down and kind of, like, ask yourself, what are all the things that I think I should do? I must do. This is how it should, this is how it has to be done. And so there's a few prompts in the language of like, subtle things that I think about, like, this is the right or the wrong way to do something and then to realize that's made up.

Because again, you can just go to one different culture and understand that the rules are different there and no one's to say which country has the right rules. Like, I think what's what's important to learn there is that it's not you. Set in stone and, and that really helped me to, yeah, to not use those rules to criticize myself so much because I wasn't fitting that rule or I wasn't fitting that expectation that I had just kind of taken on and to soften that instead, ask like, okay, but what is the want?

Not just the should, the must, the have to.

[00:30:00] Hannah: I really like that. It's like, if you tune into your, whenever you say I should, I must, but you know, this is what's what I believe to be true. It's almost like. scrutinizing that and rethinking, you know, is that really true? Where do, where do I have that from? How do I know that I must do it that way? So it's almost like, a good cue for us to, help understand what our rules are and go deeper into what is it that we actually believe to be true at this point.

I like that.

[00:30:30] Charlotte: For sure. I really like to say to my clients, like, put together your rule book, because like, as much as you, like, some people think like, oh, I don't like, I try to live free and whatever. But if you again, if you sit with that, and you notice over the course of some, like, at least a week, I would say, you really like try and jot down every kind of thing that you have that follows that logic of I should, or I have to before I get to Minnesota, I have to do this before I get to.

Be happy or reward myself or whatever it is, like, there's so many rules in there.and then, like, usually they come back with like, this long list of things, excuse me, this long list of things. And they're like, wow, I really do have a rule book and then you can go through and say, you know, like, I think sometimes people find it really helpful to ask.

Where did I get that from? Like, you know, maybe to understand. Oh, like, that came from there. And so it's not mine and I can let it go. And at the same time, I always say, like, that's actually not. The most important piece, the most important piece is, do you want to keep this? And because some rules like, and this is again, true for ambitious people, high achievers, really brilliant people who often, you know, fall into this trap of not seeing their own brilliance.

Some rules have brought them to where they are, like maybe your ambition and your high expectations and you're like, I want to do a really good job on this. Have, you know, helped you get the promotion, get the really great job, whatever it is, right? And so then we, we, there's a usefulness in them, but what we need to decide then is a, do I want to keep it at all?

And B, how rigidly do I want to keep it? Because just because I have ambition doesn't mean I need to be 100 percent perfect all the time. For example, I'm just choosing perfectionism here because I think

[00:32:07] Hannah: Oh, it resonates 100%.

[00:32:10] Charlotte: a head in corporate and whatnot.so, so yeah, then thinking about like, can I be more flexible in this?

Like, do I, like, is this really serving me? Because if it, if I want to keep it, because I feel like, yeah, in like the ambitious way it has served me. Okay, but that doesn't, that doesn't mean it's a rule of like, it has to always be this way it can be softened and it can be less rigid and I can make it a useful sort of guide for myself because I want to do good work.

And that's like, makes me feel really accomplished or it makes me feel a certain way. Right? If I know that I really put effort into this, but it's not so much based on, is it the perfect end result? It's much more based on my internal guide of I really like, I really gave this my best shot. And that's a really satisfying feeling.

I don't want to take that away from anyone. I just don't want it to be a rule that you have to be that way to be worthy or valid or whatever that right. The tail end of that rule is.

[00:33:06] Hannah: Well, I'm going to go ahead and start a rule book. I feel like this is super powerful. Like some of the things you mentioned, I'm like, oh yeah, I have a lot of like unwritten rules that I'm sure a lot of the audience have as well. Like when you mentioned careers and some of the milestones we're pursuing, like I'm getting Vulnerable, but, there are certain elements of like, where I'm thinking, Oh, I need to hit a certain level before I ever get children or before I ever get pregnant.

before I'm taken out of my career for some time, and then I want to be able to, you know, get back to a, to a certain place and to a certain level afterwards. And, I often talk to peers and colleagues of mine who feel very, very similarly around, Oh, I need to achieve. X, Y, and Z before I start like family planning.

And obviously that is, you know, very specific. And I feel like that might just be a thing about, you know, achievers and, you know, career aspirational people, but, it is something where you can go. Well, is that a rule that I want to live by? Is it really true? Because I see people all the time who like, who are entrepreneurs and who couldn't care less and who just, you know, have children and amazing careers.

So, some of these things I believe can be really powerful once you understand what are your rules and what you live by and do you even, does it even serve you? As you say.

[00:34:34] Charlotte: I agree, and I think that, you know, we don't need to ignore certain financial realities, for example, right? Like, it's going to cost money to raise a family. And so maybe you want to set a certain standard regarding that. But again, there's the rigidity of that that I think always is worth a play around with.

And also just deciding for yourself, is this something that, you know, I want for myself? And if so, for these reasons, because it's aligned with these values or whatever it is, right. Or is it just something that that's how it's done? And again, like, we can, we could go through the playbook of, like, this is how it's done by 30.

You should have these things. Right. And, you know, I mean, we don't, I think we, everyone knows. I think if I say, like, by the time you're 30, you should. Everyone can fill those blanks with whatever with

[00:35:23] Hannah: And then you turn 30 and you're like, oh,

[00:35:25] Charlotte: and they're like,

[00:35:26] Hannah: as important.

[00:35:26] Charlotte: don't have it figured out. Still don't have a house in this economy.

well, obviously, depending on where you're based as well. I think that's very I do notice that a lot with working with international clients, the realities of that. Yeah. Are so, so different of, like, for example, like, take buy in house. Like, it's just like, absolutely not achievable in Switzerland, for example, where I'm from.

But then in other countries, it is something that is maybe on the plate and something that you might want. But again, it's not a rule. It's it's up to you to choose. Okay, I have good reasons for that. And so I want to keep pursuing that and I'm going to keep using it as a guide in my life. Or, actually, I think it's entirely possible to have a child and also build a career still, right?

Or, and also start a business or whatever those things are, again, there's a duality there as well. I do not think it's only the one or the other. It can often, and you can find examples for anything, including people who are doing both at the same time.

[00:36:23] Hannah: Yeah, yeah. Is this where we almost get into this whole area of reframing? what we, you know, believe to be true and then we find something that, you know, because obviously, I do, I, I feel like, reframing limiting beliefs is something I hear a lot about. And I often try to do it myself, but I often feel like it's something that constantly comes up time and time again.

It's almost like you know, something to be true or you believe you have a very common belief. Like, I'm going to give you an example for me in corporate. It was almost always. I'm just not as likable as some of the extroverts. So I often felt like, I was super ambitious, somebody who really knew what she wanted, and I was, you know, going to pursue that and always just kind of had a certain,you know, a way to me that was probably not as approachable and like, very strict, very like, cool, distant.

So it's almost like, yeah, I often felt like I was not as likable as some of the extroverts and therefore I was like, oh. That's gonna, that's gonna stand in the way of me, growing my career and of me, like, you know, being seen by the right people, getting promoted and so on. And it even trickled into my business where I was like, well, I'm going to start a podcast, who's going to want to listen, you know, am I likable enough?

Are people going to resonate? And so, that's one of the, one of the beliefs. I knew to be true and I don't even know exactly where it came from because I don't think that anybody's ever given me feedback and saying that, Oh, you're just not likable. But it's just something that I always thought was true about myself.

And it feels like that creeps up time and time again. So even if I found ways to, you know, potentially reframe and to like, challenge that pattern of that train of thought. I often get back to like, you know, it, it does come creeping back up. So I'm wondering what are your tips, hacks on like reframing? How, how do you do this in a powerful way?

[00:38:32] Charlotte: Where would you start with somebody who thinks something like that, about themselves and their career? a little bit more in terms of like, what do you think it is about yourself that doesn't make you likable? So is it that you're quiet?

Is it that you are too, Serious, is it that you are too right? Like, what what is the 2 that doesn't make you likable or not enough that doesn't make you quote, unquote, likable.I would have a hunch in the example that you just gave me that there's another layer to it. And that's where you would want to start the work.

The truth is that, you know, something like likability,

[00:39:06] Hannah: Silence.

[00:39:25] Charlotte: leading you to thinking, oh, that's, I'm not likable enough.and starting there, and then I think a trap that people often fall into is they kind of just flip it on its head. So let's say, the let's just for now, as an example, say at the root of I'm not likable enough is I'm too serious.

[00:39:43] Hannah: Too ambitious. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:39:46] Charlotte: Okay. Too ambitious. I'm too ambitious. And so then the, the reframe, if you like look quickly on like pop psychology or on the internet is often like, you know, spin it into something positive. Like, I am, I don't know, super funny or a super, I don't know what's the, what's the opposite of ambitious. I'm trying to think like, I'm super loose.

[00:40:05] Hannah: or if you say, if you keep

[00:40:06] Charlotte: I don't know,

[00:40:07] Hannah: If you keep with serious, it would be like, yeah, I'm easy. I'm easy going. I think that's

[00:40:12] Charlotte: going.

[00:40:13] Hannah: I am 100 percent not.

[00:40:16] Charlotte: Yeah.

[00:40:17] Hannah: That's what trips us up. Isn't it? Hello.

[00:40:30] Charlotte: it to yourself, like, you know, kind of train in this belief, but the belief is so far from what you actually believe that, like, you literally like your unconscious and even conscious mind just goes, like, what a load of crap I'm trying to tell myself here.

And it's going to be very, very hard to find evidence for that. So instead I always say to people like find something that's more balanced because if you're saying I'm too ambitious According to whom? Who decides that? Who has the, the judge's rule of like, what is too ambitious and what's just right? And what's just like, can we soften that up?

And can we say, for example, like I am driven and also, I don't know, I want to lean into, more spontaneity. I don't know, for example, right? Like, I don't know what, again, what it is about the ambition that is, that is tripping you up that you think is not good, but there's obviously an element maybe of Flexibility or softness or whatever it is that you want to bring in.

But let's see if we can create something that is in balance versus just going to the complete opposite. Because the balance is something where you can, it'll be easier to find a little bit of evidence, which is crucial because again, it's not enough. If you just repeat this to yourself, the only way that you're.

Brain will take it on is essentially if you have evidence for it, and that can be evidence from the past. It can be that you intentionally look back and look for all those examples of when you showed, let's go with the example of softness.

[00:41:55] Hannah: Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:57] Charlotte: Or it means that you then, you know, set yourself many challenges.

Become a little softer and then you have to pay a lot of attention to that and you have to, use your confirmation bias. Essentially, the, the, the part of your psyche that will always look for what it already believes, right? To feed into that by deliberately looking and creating that evidence so that then eventually you will be able to more easily find it by default.

And then you will arrive at a point where you're like. You don't have such strong beliefs anymore about being too ambitious, but you're more on the balance side.

[00:42:34] Hannah: I really

[00:42:35] Charlotte: Does that make sense?

[00:42:35] Hannah: It makes a lot of sense to me because, what I really like is this reframe around, you know, you're not, you're not just trying to believe the opposite, but you're trying to believe something that is more achievable and that you actually want to achieve. Because if I were to say, I will want to become less serious and completely easygoing, that's probably not something that I want or want to be perceived as.

I really resonate with softness and the way you framed it of like, I want to lean more into something because it's almost like I don't have to change everything about myself, but I'm leaning into something in terms of like, I want to invite more of that in. And if I think about my life, I feel like I'm softer in other parts, areas of my life, like my, you know, with my family and friends, for example, I'm a lot softer than I am at work.

So almost like, how do I bring more of that into the way I show up in corporate, maybe work. Now

[00:43:37] Charlotte: So when you started thinking about a belief that would be more balanced. Right. So something in the middle, not the complete opposite that you were already able to find evidence of you being a little more like that, even if it's in other areas of your life, but you essentially can say to yourself, I already have the capacity to be softer.

And now I just want to find a few ways to translate that into corporate world. Like, obviously, I'm not going to be the same with my colleagues at work as I am with my best friends. Right? Like, we know this. And at the same time, what are some of those elements I can extract from how I am able to be soft there and bring that into this?

They've already given yourself a little bit of confirmation that you can do that.

[00:44:22] Hannah: yeah, yeah.

[00:44:24] Charlotte: going to, again, feed into that evidence part.

[00:44:27] Hannah: It goes back to what you mentioned about that confirmation bias of like, we look for evidence of something that we already believe. And, Yeah, I mean, we know that our thoughts are super powerful. So it's probably just to become really mindful of that and, make sure that whatever we, we do believe and whatever we come, become intentional with is really something that helps us and serves us.

And I felt like. in that exercise, you did something that was really, really important right at the start, where you went, well, it's probably a layer deeper than it being just, you know, not being likable. So I'm almost like, can we ever do that for ourselves? Or is it, you know, do we all need to go speak to somebody about, you know, what we believe in and have them dig a little deeper?

Like, when do we know that we're actually at the root of something versus No, we have to go deeper.

[00:45:23] Charlotte: I love that question. I think in an All have someone to do this work with us. It is so, so difficult to see your own blind spots. It just is. Again, because I already have a preconceived notion of myself, I already have fed into certain beliefs and whatever it is, I like, it's the same as driving, right?

There's just a spot that you can't see. There's the blind spot. And it's the same with, with our worlds. And sometimes it can just be someone who doesn't already have the exact same understanding of the world being like, Oh, here's what I think when I hear. And then you're like, oh, why it can point you towards those right?

Like, rigid rules already just accepted. And at the same time, I also think that there's a lot that we can do for ourselves. I think that 1 of the ways you land on, something being about is often. so why I said, you know, this 1 might be a layer deeper is because. You've made it impossible to measure by being it.

It's an outsourced one, right? It depends on how other people perceive you likable. You can only be likable in relation to others. And I do need to preface this by saying that this doesn't mean that you don't exist in relationships. You always do. And I don't buy into the whole, like, you need to have everything about yourself figured out before you go into relation with others, because I see a lot of that kind of messaging online as well.

That's why I want to disclaimer that. And at the same time, when you are judging and believing only in relation to others, there's. I almost want to guarantee there's something.

[00:47:05] Hannah: Hmm.

[00:47:07] Charlotte: what have you learned that likable, like, like ability is constructed by and again, if we're living, if we're going back to what we said at the, at the start, right, about, like, maybe more extroverted world, maybe we have been taught that, like, ability has a lot to do with, I don't know, being cheerful and smiling a lot and being really, you know, I don't know.

[00:47:27] Hannah: Easy going.

[00:47:28] Charlotte: Yeah.

yeah, like, I don't know, laughing, making jokes, whatever it is that we've associated with that. And if I go at least to that level, I will have something that's a lot more workable than I just want to be more likable.and so I think that that's a good way to think about it. And at the same time, I also want to say, I don't know if you really need to know if you've gotten to like the, the root of the root. I always say to people, like, it's helpful to explore the root and it's helpful to explore the why of something.

Like I said earlier, like. You know, where did this rule come from? Or why do I believe this rule? It's helpful, but also only until a certain degree, because you can also get lost in the lie of like, You know, like, imagine a small child, like, they can always ask another why, like, why is this this way? And why is that that way?

And why is, you know, and there's, there are layers to the why that are helpful. I almost want to put, like, a number on, like, about 5 times asking is usually helpful. There's also that's called, like, 5 times why. And after that, there's a point where you kind of have to go, all right, this is what I'm going to work with.

And how do I want that to be? So, if I land on, I'm not funny enough, I don't make enough jokes, thus, I'm not likable, right? That connection, let's say, then, yeah, maybe I ask myself a few more times what might be underneath that. But if that's what I land on, like, that's workable. I don't need to know if that's the ultimate thing.

Already start doing something, which I think maybe is how we close the loop, because I remember at the start, you asked me, you know, I take action too fast. And I like, you know, don't sit in the stillness enough, but that is also a balance, right? That sitting only in the stillness and only sitting there asking myself, well, what else do I believe?

And like, what's underneath that? And what's underneath that? And what's underneath that? Then I won't do the action that is still necessary to build the evidence. And so there's always a balance in this reflection versus action game and in anything in life. Like, I think one of the, if I could just like write one keyword, a lot above everything it's balance and nuance and like duality.

Like it's those two things at once. It's, it's both of those things. And there is not a clear cut right amount, right? Like no one can say to you, all right, now you've done the exact appropriate amount of thinking and now you can move into action. Always this. Yeah, it's like a fluid kind of game between them almost. so I think once you find that you are just stuck in thinking, you probably need to just run with what you have and get into acting.

[00:50:12] Hannah: I love that.there is so much in there that I learned and that I feel like is new versus what I, what I knew before. I like the element of balance and nuance and, just this approach of, of getting started and how to tap into, you know, what we deeply know. my overall reflection is that mindset is often something that we, you know, tick the box of like, Oh yeah, I've, you know, I know it all.

I've got it all figured out. we spent most of our time building our careers and like learning the functional aspects. Even like if you, compared with your clients, I'm sure that everyone's focused on how to grow your business, how to, you know, set up the right systems, how to do the marketing, the sales, but we spend very little time.

with mindset and with, you know, ourselves, if we're being really honest. So this conversation has opened my eyes. Definitely. I hope everyone else's as well. When it comes to, you know, here's what you should be focusing on first and foremost, when it comes to making a change in your career, when it comes to, you know, getting unstuck with wherever we are.

And so, tell us where everyone can find your brilliant account and for the, business owners, in my audience, how can they work with you and, reach out to you if they want to know more? Yeah.

[00:51:29] Charlotte: I think I want to just really quickly around the ball on that, because I think that it's so true. We often, like, look at the outer things where the business growth or the career growth and whatever that we want to achieve and we neglect that inner peace. But I also will say that typically the success is an inner peace.

Like, again, we can think of any people that and there are a lot of them out there that have it all on paper, but internally. Thank you. It doesn't feel that way. And so if that, like, if you need more proof, like go talk to one of those people, because there's plenty of them out there and you know, if you need more proof for why thing is more important, because in the end of the, in the end of your life, you probably want to feel successful, fulfilled and accomplished more so than you ever looked on paper.

And so that's such a, like, this is how it all comes together essentially. But for people who want to find my account, it's at the mind. on Instagram, all together, lowercase, Easy and for anyone who wants to work with me, that's usually also the best channel. So if they send me a dm there, that's easier probably than if I get you an email right now, but I typically work with people for 3 month containers, at least so often also more than that.

But I just, I mean, as we kind of dug in here, right, there's a lot to do in this kind of area. So, typically, 3 month containers. so just to be aware, it's not usually a, I don't know, a quick in and out kind of thing, but more so a long term commitment. But if that's something that anyone listening to this is interested in, they are much more than welcome to send me a DM on Instagram. Hey, I heard you on Hannah's podcast or something like that. So I know where they're coming from. And then I know what they're maybe after

[00:53:12] Hannah: Super. I love that shot. We'll link that in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today. I have so many notes and takeaways as I'm sure my audience will as well. thank you very much.

[00:53:24] Charlotte: the pleasure.