Amazon had launched Amp, which was live audio. Mm-hmm. And that was a big deal until it wasn't. And Facebook had gotten into podcasting and that was a big deal until it wasn't. But then there are other things that are doing really well, and one of 'em of course is podcasting, which had a very good year, although I would say the business is changing quite a bit.

Welcome to BRANDwidth On Demand, your Guide to Rebooting Radio.

So we had a hot AC station in Des Moines, and there was a pediatrician who was on every Wednesday morning. It turns out that that was the biggest feature on the radio station. Why is that? Well, that radio station was targeted at young women moms, and we were hitting them with subject matter that was way more relevant to them than talking about Katie Perry. So if you are running a radio station and you have a target, what is it that your people are interested in that you may not be able to service well over the air, but if you could take that pediatrician and make that into a podcast and mm-hmm. sponsor it, this is the opportunity to talk to that demo and create programming that's relevant to them.

BRANDwidth On Demand,, rebooting radio with a different take on all radio can be. Now your guides through the media Morphosis, David Martin and author of the book, BRANDwidth, Media Branding, coach Kipper McGee.

Steve Goldstein is a recognized leader in audio programming, in marketing and in management. He's developed tons of successful radio brands from coast to coast for significant broadcast companies, including NBC, ABC, all the while providing guidance to local and national talent in pioneering podcasting and voice first initiative. Prior to founding, Amplify his firm, he was a founding partner at Saga Communications, serving as executive vice president and group program director from the company's formation way back in 1986 until 2015 when he started yet another amazing adventure Amplify. BRANDwidth On Demand is proud to welcome again the world famous Steve Goldstein.

Hey Steve. Happy first episode.

Welcome everybody to the New Year. Wow.

Yeah...well...

Season six for us. Yeah, we're glad to have you. So, Steve, as the new year starts, what are some of the key takeaways that busy Radio people may have missed in your realm?

You know, I did a post, I did a year end wrap up called The ups and Downs of Audio. 2022 and there were 17 items there. Uh, not to go through all of them, but just ahead, a couple of headlines I think is worthwhile because like Amazon had launched amp, which was live audio. And mm-hmm. that was a big deal until it wasn't. And Facebook had gotten into podcasting and that was a big deal until it wasn't. Uh, Spotify did a live radio, just announced that they're cutting back on that. And you remember Clubhouse, I mean, Oh, that was a big deal two years ago. Not so much now. But then there are other things that are doing really well, and one of 'em, of course is podcasting, which, uh, had a, had a very good year, although I would say the business is changing quite a bit. And, and I'm hoping that's what we're gonna talk about today because, The changes are fairly profound. And I sort of think in a way it's like the streaming business, you know, I mean, uh, every streamer, Disney Plus and HBO O Max and everybody, we're creating tons and tons of content and getting tons of new people to subscribe. And as they say, trees don't grow to the sky. And now they're reckoning with how to make money and how many shows that they should be producing and that sort of stuff. And the same sort of thing is happening on the podcast side.

Yeah, it seems that everywhere there seems to be that balance between what do we invest in the product versus what are we gonna get as far as a return? And that's true whether you're subscribing or trying to buy it by being advertised to however the model

works. Yeah. And in the podcast realm, I mean the model is, there's a lot of podcasts out there, ostensibly, there are a lot of podcasts out. You know, there's two and a half million or so on Apple. There's another index called Podcast Index that says that there are 4 million podcasts. What? Whatever it is. Only a fraction of those are active. I know in the radio business, a lot of people have said from, you know, time to time, well, gee, maybe it's too crowded. Yeah, maybe it is. But we did a study in the middle of the year and only 156,000 podcast and produced 10 or more episodes and produced a fresh episode. that week. Yes. So that's not two and a half million. That's not 4 million. That seems way more reasonable, although 156,000 is an awful lot. A podcast as well. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Steve, you've noted that podcast opportunities will likely require a really, a major reset for a lot of broadcasters. In fact, I think you're looking into doing something with the R A B in terms of taking a real look at the landscape and what's happening and what challengers is that are, are ahead. What are you seeing now?

Yeah, so we did a study at the end of 2022, uh, in the fourth quarter with the R A B, looking at local podcasts. There was a benchmark study, Erica Farber is, and the r a b people are just. To partner with. And, uh, so we, we thought, let's see where local radio is with local podcasts. And the answer won't surprise you that, that there are some who are doing it and doing it well. But mostly podcasting has been a national sort of thing, but. I, I think it's really interesting guys, because there are companies that are coming into the local podcast realm, not, I'm not talking about broadcast companies. So there's a company called City Cast, which is a division of Graham Holdings. Graham Holdings is the old Washington Post company. Oh yeah. Media. They own TV stations and they also owned Megaphone, which they sold to Spotify and they owned Slate. I mean, they've been around the podcast hemisphere. While, and they've started this thing that is a combo podcast newsletter, uh, initiative in 10 local markets ranging from Boise, Idaho, and Des Moines to Atlanta. It's quite the initiative and that's growing. And then there's a company called Blue Wire. Which is doing local sports podcasts. They have about 200 podcasts and they do them for each team, so n F, nfl, you know, N B A, whatever in each market. And these are local podcasts that are going ostensibly up against local porch talk radio stations. I mean, so I think the reason that, uh, that we thought we needed to benchmark this was because radio stations, as you know, there aren't a lot of people in the hallways these days, uh, don't wanna miss this opportunity. And at the same time, and I know Kipper, you and I have had these conversations over the years, especially on the lower. end, the audience is disappearing. It's not gone, but it's being fragmented. And Edison had put out a really interesting study, which, which I quote often, that right now as a fourth quarter, more people are listening to audio on a mobile device than an a m FM device. Just by a little bit, just by a little. But the trend is clear. And so if you're listening on a mobile device, smartphone, obviously you're talking about all of the choices that are in there, whether it's Apple Music or Spotify podcasts, uh, your own music if people still own music. But all of those things are choices, and that's putting pressure, especially on the lower demo. for radio stations and they're seeing their TSL off and their pump levels are being challenged. And, and, and I do wanna quantify that though. Radio still gets a ton of cue. So even in those demos, everybody is cycling in, so, so this is the opportunity to talk to that demo and create programming that's relevant to.

And speaking of relevant, I mean you, you've always been one to talk about great quality content on whatever platform you are, but you definitely are pointing out that in podcasting, like broadcasting, if you're average, you're going to get crushed. So could you dig into that trifecta that you've got? Heat, Awareness, Discovery, and. Not only what it means for podcasting, but how can radio folks apply that to the air as well?

Yeah, I think it's true of anything today. I mean, there has to be some heat. There's so many things that people can choose to watch or listen to or read or whatever. So you gravitate, people do gravitate toward what seems important or important to them anyway or urgent. Uh, so so that's what the heat is. And then the awareness is are you doing it? Who's doing? Where do I find it? And then the killer, uh, certainly in the podcast realm is discovery. I mean, broadcast a little bit easier. I mean, you know, maybe there's 50 stations in a market, but there's ridiculous, you know, endless infinite choices when you get onto your mobile device. And, and you can listen to whatever you want, wherever you want. But in podcast discovery is the problem. Is there a podcast that's appealing to me? If I'm not aware of it, obviously I can't choose it. So those are the three things I think that apply directly to podcasting. But they apply to broadcasting and everything else as well. And, and I do think what's critical in the podcast realm is people have to go find it. I mean, in radio we've always had. Great advantage of people, you know, just punching through the dial and finding stuff not so easy in podcasting, you have to go look for it. It's definitely a lean forward sort of thing. And so how are people going to find that? And more importantly, when they do, if they do, is it filling a need? And one of the things, uh, when, when I talk with radio people, radio groups, et c. One of the things I, I think we need to understand is that spoken word is a lot of different things. I mean, uh, if you're talking about talk radio, spoken word is gonna be conservative talk primarily, although it can be other things. Uh, if you're talking about morning radio talking personality, it can be a, a lot of different things. But when you look at the top 25 podcasts and Apple Podcasts only, Only two are political and it's loaded with other things, true crime and health and wellness, and just a variety of topics and interests that I don't think radio is targeting as well as it could or not at all. And so that to me is a fantastic opportunity for local radio to connect with their markets. And that could be about food, it could be about medical issues, it could be about local sports, whatever makes sense locally. So getting back to that

discoverability part of the equation, does that mean that s e is still an important thing in searchability? Cuz I've got one client, they're a pure play internet service. But what happens is they find a lot of traffic comes to them from Pinterest where they were just posting stuff and it, it's not LinkedIn, it's not Facebook, it's not Instagram, it's Pinterest, and people are searching there for that. So how does that searchability play into it as well as a

discoverability? Yeah, I think that's a really important question and issue. You know, when I got into the podcast thing, which is seven and a half years ago, all of the conversations were about creating good content. Now every single conversation is both creating good content and that discoverability and seo, of course, is a big factor. And SEO is just, I mean, you know, there's there, there's other tricks and tools in social media. But in the first phase of podcasting, all you had to do was go out on Twitter and put a link in there and you could launch a podcast to your tribe. Not so easy anymore. There's just so much more noise and you know, nevermind the whole Elon mess going on right now. I don't complicate things even more, but it was already hard before that.

Well, Steve, what are the most and least crowded categories of podcast? I mean, with all the other hurdles that radio has in front of it, the best advice may be choosing the proper category, would it not?

Every category has a lot of stuff in it. Some of them are a little more vulnerable than others, but I think local radio needs to do local podcasts and there aren't a lot of those. In some markets there are, uh, TV stations doing them. In some markets, newspapers, there in every market is a group of independent podcasters. I mean, you can Google it for your market and you'll come up with, you know, uh, a community of podcasters in Raleigh or Indianapolis, and they're all creating content. Some of it's miserable and some of it's pretty interesting and pretty good. I would consider. Coupling up with some of those local podcasters because you have something they don't have. You have CU to promote and you have a sales staff to monetize. So if you don't have the ability to create the content in your hallways, and you may not, that's one way. Uh, that you can approach local podcasting. It may be harder to scale, but it actually might be a great place to start. Very smart. Mm-hmm.

So you've mentioned that podcast ad spending is bound to reach new levels. We're seeing the trend lines from every source that it's going to outpace, broadcast by leaps and bounds eventually, but thinking shorter term for the coming year. What are some of the smarter ways for radio to get their unfair share of that revenue? Or can they?

Well, I don't think they're gonna get an unfair share of any of it unless they get out there. And one of the things that, uh, we talked to the r a B board about is that, you know, because you want to get into podcasting, you're not gonna make money on Tuesday. This isn't like studio naming rights. It's work and it's time. And that's hard, especially now with. Many broadcast companies, you know, experiencing their own challenges, but, but this is part of the future. It's audio and the companies that do invest in it, Hubbard invests and its Salem Invests and it, others like iHeart have invested nationally in it. This will pay off locally. Over time, but it does require going into the laboratory and doing some science projects. And it also means harvesting some of the audio you already have. And what do I mean by that? So your morning show, depending on the kind of morning show you have, if you're doing a mostly music show and you're doing almost impossible trivia, I don't know that there's a big podcast in that for. But if you are doing a big talk show, you know, on a classic rock station sort of thing, harvesting the right content and making it available at a time that's more convenient for the audience, that's something that's really highly appreciated. And uh, yeah. And I don't think a lot of radio companies have. Invested in that or pushed that as much as they could. Sure. They've posted the morning show, but that's a three and a half hour file. That's miserable.

No, we're talking carpool karaoke on YouTube.

Yeah. Well, look at YouTube. There's a lot of local podcasts. I'm gonna put that in, uh, quotes. There's a lot of local content coming out of YouTube. I mean, there's just another avenue to try and find stuff.

The always wise and insightful. Steve Goldstein, our guest today from Amplify Media. Hey, somebody you'd like to hear from. We'd love to hear from you. Email your suggestions to show@bandwidthondemand.com, and if you're finding value in this podcast and our guest. Tell a friend every month we reach thousands of broadcasters who seldom, if ever, get to attend a broadcast summit or a Bootcamp.

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Coming up, Steve shares some things that he sees right now, opportunities that others may find hiding in plain.

Hi, this is Dave from Music Master Scheduling here with another Music Master Raving fan. Did someone say Music Master Raving Fan? Ding Ding. That's me. Hey, it's Lee McNabb, operations Manager for Saga Communications Des Moines Radio Group. My mentors taught me music's. Scheduling on Music Master, and that's what I use to teach the young Padawans of today ready to become a music master raving fan. Get in touch@musicmaster.com slash sales. I've used Music Master in some major markets for some major media players. I'm a major fan.

Opportunities hidden in plain sight...BRANDwidth On Demand

We are with one of media's very best and brightest, Steve Goldstein. Steve, thinking about traditional broadcast and where audio is headed, what are some opportunities that you see right now that station people can take advantage of in this new year?

So I'll give you two quick thoughts. The first actually goes back to my broadcast days and has always been on my. So we had a hot AC station in Des Moines, which someone on this call may have actually been the program director up at one point. Guilty and there was a pediatrician who was on every Wednesday morning for about 20 minutes or so, 25 minutes. It turns out that that was the biggest feature on the radio station. Why is. Well, that radio station was targeted at young women moms, and we were hitting them with subject matter that was way more relevant to them than talking about Katie Perry, and that has stayed with me the entire time. So if you are running a radio station and you have a target, what is it that your people are interested in that you may not be able to service well over the. But if you could take that pediatrician and make that into a podcast and mm-hmm. sponsor it. I love that idea. You're gonna connect with your audience in a way that you haven't before and you're gonna be able to monetize that podcast. Love it. Another area is branded podcasts. And that's going to the local medical center, which is spending good money on your radio station today and saying, okay, let's create something bespoke. Let's create some content that is, I'm sorry, both of these examples are medical, what came to mind? But putting on experts in a particular category could be quite useful, or it could be dreadful. I mean, it all depends on how well that's produced, but, but the opportunity is there for it to be beneficial to theaudience, and sponsorable.

No, you could do it with a veterinarian, right, Steve?

Totally. They have a better idea. Sure.

And too, it seems that doing it on demand will allow the people who really are interested in that topic to access the information when they want to, which will then reflect on the station brand, but also it won't bore the people that might not be interested in the whole radio thing. But to hear that it's there, Is it good for them to know

Well, and we're living in an on-demand world. I mean that that is where we are. There is an expectation that content is available when I want it. And we've learned that from the TV side, and we now expect it on the audio side. And so the notion that radio can continue to just be linear is missing this tremendous opportunity. And again, as I mentioned earlier, you've got the mobile device. What are you going to do that makes you relevant on the mobile device? And it's not gonna be playing the same music that you've been playing, if that's who you. And it's not gonna be the same shows that you already have. It couldn't be something else.

Wow. He is terrific, isn't he? Kipper that Steve Goldstein from Amplify Media Links to Steve's popular blog, Stein and more in the show notes. Just scroll down on your phone.

Our thanks to Exec Producer, the world famous Cindy Huber, our associate producer, the award-winning Hannah B, and coming up next. Music hits and misses from the past year, and a look at what might be ahead for next from Ross on radio, Sean Ross joins us.

That's a wrap Kipper. Everything old is new again. Well, it's the new year. We have new ideas for you. You'll find it in one minute. Martinizing in the show notes. I'm Dave Martin

and me. I'm Kipper McGee. May all your BRANDwidth be wide!