1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,262 I remember Sam Clark from GridServe raised it at one point when we often share stats on the number of hubs that are around the UK and how that's grown. 2 00:00:10,262 --> 00:00:14,953 And he raised a point that said, you know, we are seeing that growth and that's fantastic. 3 00:00:14,953 --> 00:00:17,174 What about the size of the hubs? 4 00:00:17,174 --> 00:00:20,815 How many EV chargers, how many cars can charge in those hubs? 5 00:00:20,815 --> 00:00:22,155 How's that changing? 6 00:00:22,152 --> 00:00:26,132 I can't start and stop a Tesla charge without using the Tesla app. 7 00:00:26,132 --> 00:00:27,075 So that's kind of... 8 00:00:27,075 --> 00:00:36,290 built in And for those pedantics who are listening, unless I'm using the V4 Tesla supercharger that has the card reader on it, I do understand that, 9 00:00:36,287 --> 00:00:47,967 That's over 160 apps that ideally a person should have on their phone at the same time in order for them to charge at any point, anywhere, just in the UK. 10 00:00:47,967 --> 00:00:49,509 We're not even talking about Europe. 11 00:00:49,989 --> 00:00:57,454 Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 290 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. 12 00:00:57,454 --> 00:01:00,998 And on the show today, it's the mid-season round table episode. 13 00:01:00,998 --> 00:01:06,982 Now, before we start, I do want to remind you about the sister podcast I do called the Commercial EV Musings podcast. 14 00:01:06,982 --> 00:01:13,128 It's B2B focused and we've got some great discussions on there with companies like Amplify EV, TransitionWise, 15 00:01:13,128 --> 00:01:15,751 and soon to be released, Valor Power. 16 00:01:15,751 --> 00:01:19,230 You can find that on YouTube at evmusings.com slash commercial. 17 00:01:19,230 --> 00:01:24,234 Once you've listened to this show, if you enjoyed it, a like, a comment or a subscribe would be most appreciated. 18 00:01:24,234 --> 00:01:24,870 Thank you. 19 00:01:33,386 --> 00:01:35,529 So welcome to episode 290 of the podcast. 20 00:01:35,529 --> 00:01:38,451 As usual, I've got some specially invited guests. 21 00:01:38,451 --> 00:01:43,437 We'll discuss important matters in the EV space and when we put the world to rights, we'll continue with the next topic. 22 00:01:43,437 --> 00:01:47,422 And as this is the mid-season episode, have two guests. 23 00:01:47,422 --> 00:01:52,858 The three guests are reserved for the end of season episode, both of whom have great topics to discuss. 24 00:01:52,858 --> 00:01:53,830 So let me introduce them. 25 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:58,514 From podcast sponsors Zapmap, we have Jade Edwards, who is the head of insights there. 26 00:01:58,514 --> 00:02:04,500 Jade is a past guest on the show, having appeared on episode 192, the data insights episode. 27 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:05,292 Welcome, Jade. 28 00:02:05,292 --> 00:02:06,648 Hi Gary, nice to be here. 29 00:02:06,648 --> 00:02:08,440 Thank you for joining us. 30 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:15,219 I'm also joined today by Victoria Hutton, is a marketing expert specializing in the EV and mobility sector. 31 00:02:15,219 --> 00:02:24,311 Victoria worked on the digital ecosystem supporting the launch of Polestar's first electric vehicles and later led digital marketing at InstaVolt, one of the UK's largest 32 00:02:24,311 --> 00:02:25,342 public charging networks. 33 00:02:25,342 --> 00:02:26,284 Welcome, Victoria. 34 00:02:26,284 --> 00:02:26,910 Hello, Gary. 35 00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:27,556 Hello, Jade. 36 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:28,877 Thank you very much for having me. 37 00:02:28,877 --> 00:02:29,919 So let's get right into it. 38 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,269 Now, this is the point where I hand the show over to one of you to introduce your topic. 39 00:02:34,269 --> 00:02:36,826 And today I think we'll start with Jade. 40 00:02:36,826 --> 00:02:38,751 So what are we discussing today, Jade? 41 00:02:38,751 --> 00:02:51,919 Yeah, so what I thought we could discuss today was that recently we've updated the way that we count the number of EV chargers in the UK and that's something that Zapmap has 42 00:02:51,919 --> 00:03:01,016 done in conjunction with the Department for Transport so the official statistics that the government use and that are published on the growth of the charging network are now 43 00:03:01,016 --> 00:03:04,655 reflecting a slightly different count than they were previously. 44 00:03:04,655 --> 00:03:05,307 Wonderful. 45 00:03:05,307 --> 00:03:08,995 So my opening question on this is why? 46 00:03:08,995 --> 00:03:10,969 What is it giving us that we didn't have before? 47 00:03:10,969 --> 00:03:23,551 Yeah, so why we've changed it is that originally, when Zapmap and then the Department for Transport started reporting on how many EV chargers were out there in the UK, there was no 48 00:03:23,551 --> 00:03:24,771 set way of doing that. 49 00:03:24,771 --> 00:03:29,642 And there wasn't really a lot of data that was being shared across the industry. 50 00:03:29,642 --> 00:03:32,282 They started in about 2014 with this. 51 00:03:32,282 --> 00:03:36,637 So it really was, you know, really sort of early in the transition and in that rollout. 52 00:03:36,637 --> 00:03:39,809 And so at the time, there were two ways that you could really think about it. 53 00:03:39,809 --> 00:03:43,141 You could think about the number of connectors that there were. 54 00:03:43,141 --> 00:03:47,884 So there was a CHAdeMO connector, there was a CCS connector, there was a Type 2 connector. 55 00:03:47,884 --> 00:03:52,333 So you could count up all those connectors across the UK and use that number. 56 00:03:52,333 --> 00:04:02,908 Or you could look at the number of chargers that were out there and physically the kind of the boxes and the housing, which is Zapmap called the devices, and you could count those. 57 00:04:02,908 --> 00:04:12,477 and at the time it was felt that if you tried to count all those individual connectors, you'd vastly overestimate the number of cars that would actually be able to charge. 58 00:04:12,477 --> 00:04:17,360 And so really that kind of provision would have been over counted. 59 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:23,466 So at the time, Zapmap and the Department of Transport decided to count the devices, the kind of number of boxes that were out there. 60 00:04:23,466 --> 00:04:25,188 So that's what's been counted to date. 61 00:04:25,188 --> 00:04:37,115 The change is that as OCPI has become a ingrained within the charge point industry as a way of the charge point operators sharing their data with platforms like Zapmap, OCPI 62 00:04:37,115 --> 00:04:43,099 includes what is termed an EVSE, electric vehicle supply equipment. 63 00:04:43,099 --> 00:04:44,660 That's a well-known term in the industry. 64 00:04:44,660 --> 00:04:48,813 It's not a nice, friendly term for the general public, for EV drivers. 65 00:04:48,813 --> 00:04:51,154 So we call it EV Chargers. 66 00:04:51,154 --> 00:04:52,346 But basically, 67 00:04:52,346 --> 00:04:58,103 this EVSE or EV charger is what controls the charge session with a car. 68 00:04:58,103 --> 00:05:04,640 And that data is now being shared with Zapmap with other EMSPs and across the industry. 69 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:16,303 And so moving to count those rather than the devices or the connectors is the best way of representing how many cars can actually charge simultaneously across the UK. 70 00:05:16,303 --> 00:05:17,415 It's not perfect. 71 00:05:17,415 --> 00:05:19,399 but it's the best way there is at the moment. 72 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:31,228 So Victoria, I know you can't speak in detail about some of the things at InstaVolt, but I know you were involved in the Winchester Super Hub where they've put 44 uh chargers in 73 00:05:31,228 --> 00:05:35,711 there, but some of those were dual headed ones, Chademo and CCS. 74 00:05:35,711 --> 00:05:41,907 Do you recall off the top of your head, are they able to charge two vehicles at the same time or is it CCS or Chademo? 75 00:05:41,907 --> 00:05:43,498 It is CCS or Chademo. 76 00:05:43,498 --> 00:05:52,629 So essentially one charger would provide the charging for one car at a time, either through CCS connection or through the Chademo. 77 00:05:52,629 --> 00:05:58,969 But I think just to add on a point that Jade was making, I think it's great that the changes are happening. 78 00:05:58,969 --> 00:06:02,871 However, from a marketing perspective, I guess I have a question to Jade. 79 00:06:02,871 --> 00:06:08,822 And for me, it's always been a bit strange to market the chargers 80 00:06:08,822 --> 00:06:12,305 from the charger perspective rather than from the location. 81 00:06:12,305 --> 00:06:21,913 So consumer obviously, first of all, trying to find where the location of the charger exists and then find how many chargers available there to estimate whether they will be 82 00:06:21,913 --> 00:06:25,886 able to charge when they arrive or if they're not gonna be able to charge. 83 00:06:25,886 --> 00:06:30,411 So my question is, why do we count individual chargers versus location? 84 00:06:30,411 --> 00:06:33,685 on top of why we have to charge 85 00:06:33,685 --> 00:06:44,133 The chargers is because some of the sites will be upgraded and some of them will be downgraded and you constantly then have to refresh the number of EVSE connectors. 86 00:06:44,133 --> 00:06:48,446 And that is a lot of work to keep up to date with the numbers. 87 00:06:48,446 --> 00:06:50,347 Yeah, really good question. 88 00:06:50,347 --> 00:06:53,628 So on the first point, why not count locations? 89 00:06:53,628 --> 00:06:58,681 We do count locations as well because it is a really important metric. 90 00:06:58,681 --> 00:07:09,557 But you do want to try and reflect how many, when you're talking about the actual size of the overall provision, you do really want to try and reflect as much as possible and how 91 00:07:09,557 --> 00:07:12,858 many cars would that actually enable to charge? 92 00:07:12,858 --> 00:07:16,751 And the difference between the number of locations that have got 93 00:07:16,751 --> 00:07:25,758 just one charger because maybe that's an on-street location and that counts as one versus something like the Winchester Hub. 94 00:07:25,758 --> 00:07:28,159 You know, you'd be, it's not apples with apples. 95 00:07:28,159 --> 00:07:36,137 So trying to go down to the EV charger level tries to give you a consistent base in which to count them all equally. 96 00:07:36,137 --> 00:07:40,059 But we always talk about how that's split through on. 97 00:07:40,059 --> 00:07:49,846 route charging, destination charging on street, we always talk about that split and the split by the power rating because it does make a huge difference, know, not every charger 98 00:07:49,846 --> 00:07:51,348 is equal in those terms. 99 00:07:51,348 --> 00:07:53,568 So I think that's really important. 100 00:07:53,568 --> 00:07:55,560 And then I've forgotten the second part of the question. 101 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,547 I don't know, what was the part Victoria? 102 00:07:57,547 --> 00:07:58,924 the second part, Victoria? 103 00:07:58,924 --> 00:07:59,981 And I can answer that part. 104 00:07:59,981 --> 00:08:01,908 trying to recall now as well, actually. 105 00:08:01,908 --> 00:08:07,922 While you're thinking about that, can I just ask a of a related marketing question? 106 00:08:07,922 --> 00:08:12,553 What sort of marketing or education is Zapmap doing on these changes out to the general public? 107 00:08:12,553 --> 00:08:18,857 Because as far as a lot of people are concerned, had whatever it was, 80 odd thousand places that you could charge. 108 00:08:18,857 --> 00:08:22,348 Now it seems we've got 120,000 places that you can charge. 109 00:08:22,348 --> 00:08:24,829 And that could be confusing for some people. 110 00:08:24,829 --> 00:08:28,903 What education has been done to help people understand the differences? 111 00:08:28,903 --> 00:08:41,366 So we've, as part of our stats page that we update every month, we've created an explainer page that links off that main page to talk about the differences and what's changed. 112 00:08:41,366 --> 00:08:52,022 The DFT put out a press release that talked about some of these changes and they've done a really good set of FAQs that are linked to the official statistics. 113 00:08:52,022 --> 00:08:57,044 When you download that data, you can also download these FAQs where they've tried to explain 114 00:08:57,044 --> 00:09:00,818 all the different aspects and the changes and that seems to have landed quite well. 115 00:09:00,818 --> 00:09:07,424 As Zapmap we are just bringing this language and this change into all the comms that we do going forwards. 116 00:09:07,424 --> 00:09:18,463 We're updating all our guides and all the pages on the website and so everything we put out we're doing that way and we've also been trying to get the rest of the industry on 117 00:09:18,463 --> 00:09:21,626 board as well so that we can kind of all do this together. 118 00:09:21,626 --> 00:09:30,625 and just help make sure that when the media are picking stories up, when they're writing about things, we're all giving them the same kind of terminology and the same messages 119 00:09:30,625 --> 00:09:32,626 because it's the consistency that's the key. 120 00:09:32,626 --> 00:09:42,588 And that's why, you know, we wanted to make this change in step with the government and in sharing it with other industry partners because it is the consistency's key. 121 00:09:42,588 --> 00:09:44,435 Otherwise it just gets more confusing again. 122 00:09:44,435 --> 00:09:45,127 That makes sense. 123 00:09:45,127 --> 00:09:46,873 Do have a question, Victoria? 124 00:09:46,873 --> 00:09:57,039 Yeah, I think on the, on the subject of consistency, the second part was obviously you have to update the EVEC data quite regularly to keep that consistency, but charging 125 00:09:57,039 --> 00:10:02,012 providers sometimes reduce the number of chargers at a location as well as add. 126 00:10:02,012 --> 00:10:09,406 For example, Banbury Gary, would know started as a few chargers and now has got over 30 chargers at that location. 127 00:10:09,406 --> 00:10:12,601 And that location grew over a few years. 128 00:10:12,601 --> 00:10:18,649 And it kind of feels like you making obviously your work a little bit harder as well from that perspective. 129 00:10:18,649 --> 00:10:21,653 Yeah, well, I think that's exactly why we're doing it. 130 00:10:21,653 --> 00:10:30,431 It's because if we didn't count at the EV charger level, we'd miss the fact that a lot of these locations are getting better and better. 131 00:10:30,431 --> 00:10:40,693 I remember Sam Clark from GridServe raised it at one point when we often share stats on the number of hubs that are around the UK and how that's grown. 132 00:10:40,693 --> 00:10:45,384 And he raised a point that said, you know, we are seeing that growth and that's fantastic. 133 00:10:45,384 --> 00:10:47,605 What about the size of the hubs? 134 00:10:47,605 --> 00:10:51,246 How many EV chargers, how many cars can charge in those hubs? 135 00:10:51,246 --> 00:10:52,737 How's that changing? 136 00:10:52,737 --> 00:11:00,040 And actually we see that grow as well, because as you say, there's lots of projects to increase the provision at key sites. 137 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:06,392 So that is, know, yes, it's a harder job than reporting on the number of locations, but we have that data. 138 00:11:06,392 --> 00:11:08,734 We need that data to be accurate in Zapmap. 139 00:11:08,734 --> 00:11:10,448 and to help EV drivers. 140 00:11:10,448 --> 00:11:18,034 so for us, it's why not share that at that level and to reflect all the amazing work that's going on from the Chargepoint industry. 141 00:11:18,034 --> 00:11:21,745 And I think I want to sort of loop back to something you said earlier. 142 00:11:21,745 --> 00:11:30,650 You mentioned OCPI, which is the Open Charge Point Interface, I believe, as opposed to OCPP, which is the open charge point protocol. 143 00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:34,503 So OCPI is what you're using to gather some of this data, is that correct? 144 00:11:34,503 --> 00:11:39,207 So does every charger in the UK adhere to the OCPI standard? 145 00:11:39,207 --> 00:11:40,507 Not everything, no. 146 00:11:40,507 --> 00:11:52,393 The vast majority, and it's moving more and more and more, we can still cope with other APIs that are OCPI format, but yeah, it's absolutely the way it's going. 147 00:11:52,393 --> 00:12:02,910 And the public charge point regulations say that any charge point operator that meets the criteria has to use OCPI to provide data. 148 00:12:02,910 --> 00:12:03,932 So yeah. 149 00:12:03,932 --> 00:12:08,063 It's very, very rare now that we've got something still that's not OCPI. 150 00:12:08,063 --> 00:12:08,664 Okay. 151 00:12:08,664 --> 00:12:13,627 And are you able to talk about what changes have been made to the Zapmap app? 152 00:12:13,627 --> 00:12:18,772 Try saying that three times quickly to accommodate the updates that you've talked about. 153 00:12:18,772 --> 00:12:28,168 So on the app, most of those changes are following on from the changes that we've made on the stats page and with the official statistics. 154 00:12:28,168 --> 00:12:34,782 So there's lots of other work that's going on with the app that they will sort of flow through as we go forward. 155 00:12:34,782 --> 00:12:39,606 The big thing that we've changed on the app recently is showing the price markers. 156 00:12:39,606 --> 00:12:42,859 So there's obviously been a lot of focus on that because that was felt as a... 157 00:12:42,859 --> 00:12:47,657 really high priority for drivers to be able to start seeing and surfacing that information. 158 00:12:47,657 --> 00:12:50,042 So that went to the top of the queue. 159 00:12:50,042 --> 00:12:50,693 Okay. 160 00:12:50,693 --> 00:13:00,129 And one of the things that I think I alluded to earlier when I was talking to Victoria about the CHADMO CCS, one of the things that, and I'm not picking on Zatmod because I 161 00:13:00,129 --> 00:13:07,064 think this happens on other services that define the number of chargers that are available. 162 00:13:07,064 --> 00:13:12,677 It used to be that if there was one charger that had one EVSE and two cables, 163 00:13:12,767 --> 00:13:18,744 If one of those cables was being used, the other one was shown as available on certain apps. 164 00:13:18,744 --> 00:13:27,061 So, you know, if a CCS charger was being used, if the CCS cable was being used, somebody like me who used to have a Kia Soul that had Chattemo, I go, all right, I could charge 165 00:13:27,061 --> 00:13:27,501 there. 166 00:13:27,501 --> 00:13:30,694 But of course I can't because there's only one EVSE. 167 00:13:30,694 --> 00:13:40,157 So do we know if that kind of availability metric or posh word of the day, heuristic, is being captured correctly within 168 00:13:40,157 --> 00:13:43,695 Zapmap and within the other Roman services that use that. 169 00:13:43,695 --> 00:13:48,800 Yeah, it does depend on the different chargement operators can send to that differently. 170 00:13:48,800 --> 00:14:00,192 So it does depend on how it's sent, but there are lots where what they're trying to move more towards is that if it is being controlled by one EV charger, that you'll get the 171 00:14:00,192 --> 00:14:05,450 charging on one of those connectors and then you'll get the not available on the other one. 172 00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:13,068 So it's definitely trying to be clearer on that and we have seen that and we do see that on a lot of CPOs and the way that the data comes through to us. 173 00:14:13,068 --> 00:14:16,711 Do you have any more questions on this, Victoria, before we move on? 174 00:14:16,711 --> 00:14:18,218 No, no questions. 175 00:14:18,218 --> 00:14:18,903 Fantastic. 176 00:14:18,903 --> 00:14:20,202 Any closing comments, Jade? 177 00:14:20,202 --> 00:14:34,962 In comments, would say that the industry has developed so much over the past few years that this was one of those key changes that really helps us to measure the UK's progress 178 00:14:34,962 --> 00:14:41,876 better with international standards so that we're more consistent with how we measure things and other countries do as well. 179 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:45,293 So I think it was really important for that perspective as well. 180 00:14:45,293 --> 00:14:52,312 and hopefully everybody seems to be getting behind it and we've made that sort shift change which was the difficult part. 181 00:14:52,312 --> 00:14:55,217 Now we can just continue to see how that kind of beds in. 182 00:14:55,217 --> 00:14:58,321 My personal opinion on this is it's a move in the right direction. 183 00:14:58,321 --> 00:14:59,654 It's absolutely what we need. 184 00:14:59,654 --> 00:15:04,722 It gives more accurate, more up-to-date information and that's got to be good for the end user. 185 00:15:04,722 --> 00:15:06,105 So, appreciate that. 186 00:15:06,105 --> 00:15:07,446 Thank you very much, Jade. 187 00:15:07,817 --> 00:15:08,877 % agree as well. 188 00:15:08,877 --> 00:15:09,828 100 % agree. 189 00:15:09,828 --> 00:15:13,258 It's definitely a move towards the right direction. 190 00:15:13,311 --> 00:15:15,057 Now, Victoria, over to you. 191 00:15:15,057 --> 00:15:16,765 What's your topic of discussion? 192 00:15:16,765 --> 00:15:17,617 Thanks, Gary. 193 00:15:17,617 --> 00:15:29,248 Well, I guess as a digital marketeer or person who specializes in digital with everything online on their phone as well, it came to my attention that there are more and more apps 194 00:15:29,248 --> 00:15:31,019 being developed for people to charge. 195 00:15:31,019 --> 00:15:34,693 We currently have got 150 charging operators. 196 00:15:34,693 --> 00:15:37,655 In addition to this, we have got roaming partners. 197 00:15:37,655 --> 00:15:43,081 In addition to this, we also have got car manufacturers that are also very keen to produce 198 00:15:43,081 --> 00:15:49,117 their own app to allow people to charge their cars when they arrive to the charging location. 199 00:15:49,117 --> 00:16:00,797 That's over 160 apps that ideally a person should have on their phone at the same time in order for them to charge at any point, anywhere, just in the UK. 200 00:16:00,797 --> 00:16:02,349 We're not even talking about Europe. 201 00:16:02,349 --> 00:16:08,834 My view from marketing perspective is in this particular instance, the user experience should be prioritized. 202 00:16:08,834 --> 00:16:17,332 it needs to be easier because the number of apps that everyone has to download and then obviously register there is just becoming ridiculous. 203 00:16:17,332 --> 00:16:27,262 I do however understand why brands are still very keen to develop their apps, but I would really like to hear what you guys think on this topic. 204 00:16:27,262 --> 00:16:30,538 Now I have my own opinion on this and I'm happy to share that in a short while. 205 00:16:30,538 --> 00:16:32,663 But Jade, I want you to open on this if you wouldn't mind. 206 00:16:32,663 --> 00:16:36,017 Yeah, I think it is an interesting question. 207 00:16:36,017 --> 00:16:46,426 think I can understand why Chargepoint operators want to have an app because they want to be able to kind of own the customer in those kind of marketing terms and be able to really 208 00:16:46,426 --> 00:16:53,463 understand their customers, understand who's charging with them and therefore develop their services to better meet their needs. 209 00:16:53,463 --> 00:16:55,115 So I do understand that. 210 00:16:55,115 --> 00:16:58,930 However, I think as you say, from a customer perspective, 211 00:16:58,930 --> 00:17:07,415 When you have got a wide variety of ChargePoint operators that you could be visiting, it doesn't make sense to have all these separate apps. 212 00:17:07,415 --> 00:17:18,630 What we're trying to do at Zapmap and other EMSPs are trying to do is say, actually, if we put all these in one place in one app, we enable you to pay for those ChargePoints via 213 00:17:18,630 --> 00:17:19,221 that app. 214 00:17:19,221 --> 00:17:28,896 then you've got that choice, you can make those decisions about actually where are you going to charge and we can give you that variety of information about all these different 215 00:17:28,896 --> 00:17:30,597 providers. 216 00:17:30,597 --> 00:17:39,472 And that's part of us adding in the pricing view is because then people, that's what they want to make the choice on, they're able to do that. 217 00:17:39,472 --> 00:17:48,358 And that's really what the customer wants is different ways of making a decision about where they're going to charge depending on what's most important to them at the time. 218 00:17:48,358 --> 00:17:56,295 And the other piece I think is that there's lots of things that a ChargePoint operator should be good at doing and should really focus on being excellent at. 219 00:17:56,295 --> 00:18:04,600 Building and running an app feels like that doesn't need to be something that they're spending their time and their efforts on. 220 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,802 There are providers like Zapmap who that is what we do. 221 00:18:08,802 --> 00:18:11,383 It is about building and providing an app. 222 00:18:11,383 --> 00:18:13,475 And so I feel like that. 223 00:18:13,475 --> 00:18:18,306 do what your strengths lie and where you can make the biggest difference to the end customer. 224 00:18:18,306 --> 00:18:18,706 100%. 225 00:18:18,706 --> 00:18:23,187 And if I had the graphics, I'd be going, yay, because I totally agree with what you're saying there. 226 00:18:23,187 --> 00:18:29,327 It basically comes down to there's a choice that every ChargePoint operator has to make. 227 00:18:29,327 --> 00:18:38,067 it's do we make this the easiest it can be for the customer or do we make this the easiest it can be for the ChargePoint operator? 228 00:18:38,067 --> 00:18:39,827 And it's, know, I like to play. 229 00:18:39,827 --> 00:18:41,407 I'm known for playing devil's advocate on this. 230 00:18:41,407 --> 00:18:44,878 So, you know, I'm looking at this and I'm saying, right, I'm a ChargePoint operator. 231 00:18:44,878 --> 00:18:45,789 And to me, 232 00:18:45,789 --> 00:18:52,003 The best thing for me as a company is to get as much data as I can from all my customers. 233 00:18:52,003 --> 00:18:57,888 And I may use that to make the service for the customer better, or I may not. 234 00:18:57,888 --> 00:19:03,303 I may use that for other internal purposes or even sell it onto third party companies. 235 00:19:03,303 --> 00:19:04,534 We know that happens. 236 00:19:04,534 --> 00:19:05,806 So the question then is, 237 00:19:05,806 --> 00:19:14,209 Why as a charge point operator, if you're looking at customers as being the source of your income, why are you not making it as easy as you can for them? 238 00:19:14,209 --> 00:19:16,760 Why don't you put in plug and charge? 239 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,361 Why don't you look at things that will decrease the pricing? 240 00:19:20,361 --> 00:19:23,059 Why don't you put canopies on charge points? 241 00:19:23,059 --> 00:19:23,899 That sort of thing. 242 00:19:23,899 --> 00:19:32,323 But no, a lot of them are very much more focused on saying, right, no, we've got this app and this app will allow you to locate the charger and it will allow you to pay for the 243 00:19:32,323 --> 00:19:33,044 charger. 244 00:19:33,044 --> 00:19:35,096 and you know you might even get a discount. 245 00:19:35,096 --> 00:19:35,767 Fine. 246 00:19:35,767 --> 00:19:41,922 As you say, Jay, there are other apps, yours included, which will do exactly the same thing. 247 00:19:41,922 --> 00:19:46,367 So you've got a duplication that's giving no benefit to the customer. 248 00:19:46,367 --> 00:19:53,804 Plus, and you've probably seen this on social media, whenever you go on there, new EV driver, first time they go to a public charger. 249 00:19:53,804 --> 00:19:55,145 How do I start this? 250 00:19:55,145 --> 00:19:56,025 What's up there? 251 00:19:56,025 --> 00:19:57,297 Download our app. 252 00:19:57,297 --> 00:19:59,912 And then underneath it goes, well, you can use a 253 00:19:59,912 --> 00:20:01,093 Contactless card. 254 00:20:01,093 --> 00:20:02,714 So they're pushing. 255 00:20:02,714 --> 00:20:06,504 went to, I saw one EV point a couple of years ago now. 256 00:20:06,504 --> 00:20:13,044 It literally had four QR codes on the front of the unit to download the app to make that. 257 00:20:13,044 --> 00:20:16,067 Just one little thing at the bottom saying, and you can use contactless. 258 00:20:16,067 --> 00:20:18,449 Four QR codes versus one contactless. 259 00:20:18,449 --> 00:20:20,300 So what's the new EV driver going to do? 260 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,554 They're going to download that app and then they're to go to the next CPO. 261 00:20:23,554 --> 00:20:24,234 Same thing. 262 00:20:24,234 --> 00:20:27,925 And as you say, Victoria, they're to end up with 150 different apps. 263 00:20:27,925 --> 00:20:32,376 But I think Niall Ridell from PAUA I think he's up to about 200 on his phone. 264 00:20:32,376 --> 00:20:37,096 If you ever see him, ask him to scroll through all the EV apps that he's got on his phone. 265 00:20:37,096 --> 00:20:38,067 It's fantastic. 266 00:20:38,067 --> 00:20:42,947 So yes, to me, it's the ChargePoint operators focusing on the wrong thing. 267 00:20:42,947 --> 00:20:48,998 They're focusing on what they can get from the customer rather than what they can give to the customer. 268 00:20:48,998 --> 00:20:49,765 Does that make sense? 269 00:20:49,765 --> 00:20:50,866 Definitely makes sense to me. 270 00:20:50,866 --> 00:20:52,567 And I agree with both of you. 271 00:20:52,567 --> 00:21:03,553 From my perspective, when I was investigating the benefits and downsides of having the app, obviously there are benefits as data, as we have talked about it, but unfortunately, 272 00:21:03,553 --> 00:21:13,159 if you don't have a very good CRM system in place, then the data that you're receiving can't really be used very well because you still have to have somebody who will analyze 273 00:21:13,159 --> 00:21:14,891 the data, they will segment it. 274 00:21:14,891 --> 00:21:20,191 then they will pass it to marketeers like me to actually make use out of it. 275 00:21:20,191 --> 00:21:25,271 And quite often in startup or scale up companies, there is just not enough budget. 276 00:21:25,271 --> 00:21:34,142 mean, Jade, you probably know developing an app is very cost inefficient unless it's your prime income source. 277 00:21:34,142 --> 00:21:42,804 So from that perspective, I think spending a huge amount of money to develop an app and make it secure and make it very user friendly, et cetera, et cetera. 278 00:21:42,804 --> 00:21:46,327 is not the best way to invest the money. 279 00:21:46,327 --> 00:21:52,620 However, I do have a question for you, Jade, because you have mentioned a couple of things that really was interesting. 280 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:57,963 First thing you said Zapmap is trying to develop a one app to go to. 281 00:21:57,963 --> 00:21:59,293 Why do you say trying? 282 00:21:59,293 --> 00:22:02,044 Is that something that you have proposed to CPS already? 283 00:22:02,044 --> 00:22:03,976 And if you have received... 284 00:22:03,976 --> 00:22:05,787 reservation from their site? 285 00:22:05,787 --> 00:22:11,535 Would you be able to share what sorts of reservations you come across most of the time? 286 00:22:11,535 --> 00:22:24,216 No, so I think what I mean is that we at the moment have got, well, as we've shared on the numbers of the EV chargers, about 118,000 EV chargers showing on Zapmap, which is pretty 287 00:22:24,216 --> 00:22:26,118 much all of the ones in the UK. 288 00:22:26,118 --> 00:22:34,937 And then about 80,000 of those you can pay at using the Zapmap app or the RFID card. 289 00:22:34,937 --> 00:22:35,879 So, 290 00:22:35,879 --> 00:22:37,449 it's about increasing that coverage. 291 00:22:37,449 --> 00:22:46,491 That's what we're trying to do is increase that coverage as much as possible so that that EV driver who is new doesn't worry about downloading all different apps. 292 00:22:46,491 --> 00:22:53,835 They download Zapmap and then that serves their needs for how when they're then trying to choose which and where to go to charge. 293 00:22:53,835 --> 00:22:56,117 So I think it's just about developing that really. 294 00:22:56,117 --> 00:22:59,688 And then you will have, you know, we have competition on that and that's absolutely fine. 295 00:22:59,688 --> 00:23:02,330 You would want in the market is you want. 296 00:23:02,330 --> 00:23:12,517 a few providers that are working hard to compete against each other and bring out the best features, give the best service they can to EV drivers to win them over to using their 297 00:23:12,517 --> 00:23:12,988 app. 298 00:23:12,988 --> 00:23:15,359 And then the EV drivers are getting a great service. 299 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:21,024 They've got choice, but they've not, they're not overwhelmed with having to download so many different things. 300 00:23:21,024 --> 00:23:28,673 They can make some choices through a limited number of providers who are really competing hard to make sure they're developing the best stuff. 301 00:23:28,673 --> 00:23:40,752 So hypothetically, should you be able or Zapmap, not you, should Zapmap be able to become, let's say a Google of charging operators, location, navigation, and paying for it? 302 00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:52,300 The question is, if the rest of the CPOs, for example, will say, okay, we are giving up on our app, we just want to make sure there is the best experience for the user, what do we 303 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,191 do with the data? 304 00:23:53,191 --> 00:23:59,359 How can then CPOs remove that thoughts about, my God but what about my data? 305 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,632 I need my data, I need to know about the customer. 306 00:24:01,632 --> 00:24:10,152 Is that something that Zapmap would like to share with everyone openly as well as with individual CPOs as well as like the other CPOs? 307 00:24:10,152 --> 00:24:12,275 What's your thinking about that, Jade? 308 00:24:12,275 --> 00:24:16,599 Yeah, so I mean, that's my job is I'm, I head up Zapmap Insights. 309 00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:27,778 So my job is to go, okay, with the data that is out there and that we can access via the app, what should we do with it in order to help the industry progress and who needs that 310 00:24:27,778 --> 00:24:31,240 data to help them provide a better service for EV drivers? 311 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,432 That's the kind of loop we have at Zapmap. 312 00:24:33,432 --> 00:24:34,762 So yeah, absolutely. 313 00:24:34,762 --> 00:24:37,645 It's about going at the moment we have products and services. 314 00:24:37,645 --> 00:24:42,808 based on the data that flows into us that helps the ChargePoint operators develop. 315 00:24:42,808 --> 00:24:52,592 And we always look into how we enhance those, bring in new services, and yeah, basically create that ecosystem of making sure the data is available where it needs to be. 316 00:24:52,592 --> 00:24:59,346 With all the obvious restrictions about what we can or can't share, at the moment we don't share anything that's to do with EV drivers. 317 00:24:59,346 --> 00:25:00,408 themselves through the app. 318 00:25:00,408 --> 00:25:01,499 It's not their data. 319 00:25:01,499 --> 00:25:05,276 It's the data that the Chargepoint operators send to us via OCPI. 320 00:25:05,276 --> 00:25:07,700 That's what our products and services are around. 321 00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:14,291 But as we move into the future, it will be looking at what else should we do that helps everybody in the best way. 322 00:25:14,291 --> 00:25:17,734 I've got to jump in here because again, I've got to put my devil's advocate hat on there. 323 00:25:17,734 --> 00:25:28,710 If we get to that situation a number of years down the line where Zapmap is the preeminent app that everybody uses and the ChargePoint operator apps have diminished down to a much 324 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:35,825 lower number, if you're gathering all that data on behalf of the ChargePoint operators, are you going to be giving it to them or are you going to be selling it to them? 325 00:25:35,825 --> 00:25:49,985 Well, most likely we'd be selling it because at the end of the day, we are a commercial business and we charge very little to EV drivers and we always want to have a free app for 326 00:25:49,985 --> 00:25:50,866 EV drivers. 327 00:25:50,866 --> 00:25:59,823 So that is a core kind of piece within the company is about making sure we are helping EV drivers and we're on their side. 328 00:25:59,874 --> 00:26:06,070 Chargepoint operators are our major stakeholders and our partners and we work with them really collaboratively. 329 00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:08,030 But you've to balance the books, haven't you? 330 00:26:08,030 --> 00:26:17,328 We're going to be constantly developing an app that adds real value to Chargepoint operators because what we want is that the app works so well for EV drivers that it's 331 00:26:17,328 --> 00:26:20,171 driving up demand for Chargepoint operators. 332 00:26:20,171 --> 00:26:25,295 They'll be very happy the more we're pushing utilization of their chargers. 333 00:26:25,327 --> 00:26:27,990 So it's about that balance. 334 00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:34,171 We have to work that balance out as we go and we always do that really collaboratively with the charge point operators. 335 00:26:34,171 --> 00:26:43,111 I have a, notwithstanding what I've said earlier on about playing devil's advocate and saying that, know, CPO shouldn't really have apps for every single one of them. 336 00:26:43,111 --> 00:26:48,457 I will put my hand up and say, there are a couple of CPO apps that I do currently use. 337 00:26:48,457 --> 00:26:50,720 And there's a couple of reasons why I use them. 338 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,582 One is primarily due to pricing. 339 00:26:52,582 --> 00:26:54,534 There are a number of 340 00:26:54,534 --> 00:27:02,244 CPOs who will give you a reduced price on charging if you start and stop an app, sorry, start and stop a charge via the app. 341 00:27:02,244 --> 00:27:10,649 And there are other charge point operators who have functionality in the app, which is, it's missing from other apps, let's put it that way. 342 00:27:10,649 --> 00:27:15,355 So I'm thinking particularly of the Gridserve one where you can actually track your charge curve within the app. 343 00:27:15,355 --> 00:27:15,736 So. 344 00:27:15,736 --> 00:27:20,936 I don't want to pick, because I know that there are ChargePoint operators who are going to be listening to this and going Gary, Gary, Gary, you can't say that. 345 00:27:20,936 --> 00:27:23,036 You know, we want our apps, we need them for these reasons. 346 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:24,776 And I fully understand that. 347 00:27:24,776 --> 00:27:31,667 And I think they're all legitimate reasons why some people would use some ChargePoint operators app. 348 00:27:31,667 --> 00:27:32,907 I mean, the other one is Tesla. 349 00:27:32,907 --> 00:27:37,538 can't, as a non-Tesla driver, I can't start and stop a Tesla app. 350 00:27:37,538 --> 00:27:39,509 Why do I keep saying app instead of charge? 351 00:27:39,509 --> 00:27:43,489 I can't start and stop a Tesla charge without using the Tesla app. 352 00:27:43,489 --> 00:27:44,432 So that's kind of... 353 00:27:44,432 --> 00:27:45,803 built in there. 354 00:27:45,803 --> 00:27:54,725 And for those pedantics who are listening, unless I'm using the V4 Tesla supercharger that has the card reader on it, I do understand that, that's fine. 355 00:27:54,725 --> 00:28:00,747 So I think, yes, I can see use cases where an app would be useful. 356 00:28:00,747 --> 00:28:08,199 I can't see a use case where every ChargePoint operator has their own app, which then brings the next question up, which is, and 357 00:28:08,199 --> 00:28:16,252 I don't know whether you can answer this for Zapmap, Jay, because you're obviously not in the app development, but some of that functionality that I've talked about at the CPO 358 00:28:16,252 --> 00:28:19,758 level would be really good to include in the Zapmap app, don't you think? 359 00:28:19,758 --> 00:28:20,475 Don't you think? 360 00:28:20,475 --> 00:28:23,761 I can definitely pass your feedback on on that one Gary. 361 00:28:23,761 --> 00:28:24,834 Fantastic. 362 00:28:24,834 --> 00:28:26,338 Do you have any more questions, Victoria? 363 00:28:26,338 --> 00:28:27,498 No more questions. 364 00:28:27,498 --> 00:28:28,698 I really enjoyed it. 365 00:28:28,698 --> 00:28:36,140 I guess from my professional perspective, I'm more keen for the user experience to be prioritized versus development. 366 00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:48,862 And the way that digital world is moving on, I do feel like fractional feature development is a little bit more efficient nowadays than just doing everything in house, having a 367 00:28:48,862 --> 00:28:52,413 whole marketing team in house, having a whole development team in house. 368 00:28:52,413 --> 00:29:01,269 It makes sense to work collaboratively and everyone focusing on their thing by making it perfect versus just trying to do everything yourself. 369 00:29:01,269 --> 00:29:07,638 And I think this is where the app development is kind of can be entered into as well. 370 00:29:07,638 --> 00:29:08,580 Excellent, good. 371 00:29:08,580 --> 00:29:09,692 Thank you very much for that. 372 00:29:09,692 --> 00:29:10,643 My turn now. 373 00:29:10,643 --> 00:29:16,939 I want to talk about a subject which I think is near and dear to many of our hearts, which is EVED, the electric vehicle excise duty. 374 00:29:16,939 --> 00:29:26,237 Now we all agree that EV drivers need to be able to pay their way and fill the gap which has appeared in government finances through the potential loss of fuel duty because people 375 00:29:26,237 --> 00:29:28,210 aren't buying fuel if they've got electric vehicles. 376 00:29:28,210 --> 00:29:33,524 And the government is currently proposing this solution called EVED, otherwise known as the three pence a mile tax. 377 00:29:33,524 --> 00:29:43,993 Now my thesis is that this is the wrong tax and the introduction at this stage is poorly timed and it will result in fewer electric vehicles being sold in the short to midterm. 378 00:29:43,993 --> 00:29:48,767 On top of that, there are several proposed aspects to the tax, which are fairly troubling. 379 00:29:48,767 --> 00:29:55,156 And I'm happy to go into that in detail, but I want to put this to the panel of guests and say, do you think EVED is the solution? 380 00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:57,852 And if not, what do we think the solution should be? 381 00:29:57,852 --> 00:30:00,824 And I'm going to ask Jade to take that question first, please. 382 00:30:00,824 --> 00:30:11,949 From a Zapmap perspective, we agree EV drivers should pay their way as the fuel duty revenues will inevitably decrease over time. 383 00:30:11,949 --> 00:30:16,341 But we think this is definitely the wrong time to introduce something like this. 384 00:30:16,341 --> 00:30:20,393 We think it contradicts with the electric car grant. 385 00:30:20,393 --> 00:30:23,745 it's confused messaging on that. 386 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:25,876 And it's definitely too early. 387 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:35,281 the OBR did a review and think it could impact say 400,000 reduction in 400,000 cars. 388 00:30:35,281 --> 00:30:39,772 So that kind of reduction in demand, which is quite frightening really. 389 00:30:40,077 --> 00:30:44,598 so we think there's other things that need to be done before something like that is introduced. 390 00:30:44,598 --> 00:30:46,753 So particularly looking at 391 00:30:46,753 --> 00:30:54,661 how we reduce the cost of public charging because this feels like a bit of a double whammy on those people who can't charge at home. 392 00:30:54,661 --> 00:31:05,329 We know from looking at our data that for the vast majority of people, even when, or if this three pence per mile tax comes in, for the vast majority of people who drive an EV, 393 00:31:05,329 --> 00:31:11,785 it will still be cheaper than if they had a petrol or diesel vehicle and were running that. 394 00:31:11,785 --> 00:31:15,128 So we don't think it will change actually that headline. 395 00:31:15,128 --> 00:31:21,378 number in those terms but the optics are just not right particularly at this time. 396 00:31:21,378 --> 00:31:25,314 There are other things that should be focused on first before we look at this kind of measure. 397 00:31:25,314 --> 00:31:26,453 Victoria, any thoughts? 398 00:31:26,453 --> 00:31:27,814 A very quick one. 399 00:31:27,814 --> 00:31:29,355 I personally disagree. 400 00:31:29,355 --> 00:31:31,136 This is a personal opinion. 401 00:31:31,136 --> 00:31:32,547 I disagree with the tax. 402 00:31:32,547 --> 00:31:36,711 To support Jade, I would say the timing is really poor. 403 00:31:36,711 --> 00:31:43,786 Just from the communication and marketing perspective, the timing of such message is just very poorly structured. 404 00:31:43,786 --> 00:31:49,280 It took us a very long time to go through electrification and make it semi-normal. 405 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,672 We've just started 406 00:31:50,672 --> 00:32:02,223 seeing people saying we don't have a range anxiety anymore and all of a sudden all these incentives that every single car manufacturer, every single charging operator were trying 407 00:32:02,223 --> 00:32:09,884 to send over to convince consumer this is the new norm, all of a sudden it feels like this new norm is being punished. 408 00:32:09,884 --> 00:32:15,875 And in addition to this, I just don't understand why electric 409 00:32:15,875 --> 00:32:27,506 car drivers have to pay for loss of fuel, isn't it the whole point that we need to start having more clean energy and therefore this needs to be reinvested rather than suddenly 410 00:32:27,506 --> 00:32:30,069 subsidized by other users? 411 00:32:30,069 --> 00:32:32,543 But this is just my personal opinion. 412 00:32:32,543 --> 00:32:38,353 I don't think it's the right thing to do and I definitely don't think it's the right timing to do that. 413 00:32:38,353 --> 00:32:52,384 I think the other thing is that especially while now with car tax, you can be being taxed 200 pounds a year for having an EV, but I know people with 10 year old petrol or diesel 414 00:32:52,384 --> 00:32:55,686 cars that are getting charged 20 pounds a year. 415 00:32:55,686 --> 00:33:02,010 that blew, I had kind of, that had passed me by and then someone said, said, no, no, that can't be right. 416 00:33:02,010 --> 00:33:05,621 And then I went and I thought, oh my, like, what is that all about? 417 00:33:05,621 --> 00:33:16,321 Like, if you're not going to address that before you do a pay per mile tax that's just aimed at EVs, I mean, that's the sort of stuff that the general public can understand. 418 00:33:16,321 --> 00:33:18,341 They know what they pay in car tax. 419 00:33:18,341 --> 00:33:25,761 And if they go, well, hold on, if I get rid of this old petrol car and go and get any, you're going to charge me 10 times as much for my car tax. 420 00:33:25,761 --> 00:33:29,112 And now you're telling me you're going to be charging me a pay per mile. 421 00:33:29,112 --> 00:33:29,904 Mm-hmm. 422 00:33:29,904 --> 00:33:30,547 just not good. 423 00:33:30,547 --> 00:33:32,183 You can't send those mixed messages. 424 00:33:32,183 --> 00:33:32,624 Yeah. 425 00:33:32,624 --> 00:33:40,429 And what's interesting, looping back to the comment that you made earlier, Jade, about the OBR figure of 400,000 vehicles uh fewer being sold. 426 00:33:40,429 --> 00:33:44,862 I think they walked that back a little bit to about 150,000 shortly after that. 427 00:33:44,862 --> 00:33:46,263 But the point still stands. 428 00:33:46,263 --> 00:33:47,635 Yeah, I believe so. 429 00:33:47,635 --> 00:33:52,079 The potential for people who would have gone to electric to not go to electric. 430 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:57,925 So my question to you two is, do you know, either anecdotally or legitimately, 431 00:33:57,925 --> 00:34:03,202 of anybody who has said, I am now not going to electric because this tax has put me off. 432 00:34:03,202 --> 00:34:14,111 I wouldn't say I know personally, but I'm still part of a few communities the same way on Facebook where people are voicing those opinions and they say, I don't want to switch 433 00:34:14,111 --> 00:34:14,723 anymore. 434 00:34:14,723 --> 00:34:22,660 And not necessarily because of the cost, because people are calculating and basically saying this is okay, because it's so confusing. 435 00:34:22,660 --> 00:34:25,023 It's just a lot of confusion. 436 00:34:25,023 --> 00:34:29,827 You now buy an electric car, you're not getting any visible benefits. 437 00:34:29,827 --> 00:34:40,480 I mean, incentive wise, but you kind of feel like you pay there and there and there, and then you have to then figure out how much to pay for an app subscription. 438 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,694 You then need to figure out how much to pay for the charging. 439 00:34:43,694 --> 00:34:50,252 And it's just so confusing and people saying, nah, it's just easier to go back to, you know, classic car, ice car. 440 00:34:50,252 --> 00:34:59,199 Yeah, I think what I've seen on it is comments like, I'm glad I didn't make the switch because I knew they were going to do this. 441 00:34:59,199 --> 00:35:03,551 They hooked everybody in saying, we'll give you these benefits and make it cheap. 442 00:35:03,551 --> 00:35:10,076 And then as soon as people have started making the switch in decent numbers, they've gone great, we can get more money out of you. 443 00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:12,933 I've definitely seen a lot of that kind of talk. 444 00:35:12,933 --> 00:35:23,964 It's interesting, was writing a script for another episode later on in the season and I was looking back when I first got an electric car 2018, I used to take the trip up to my 445 00:35:23,964 --> 00:35:31,514 parents about 200 miles and using a subscription on what was then Polar slash Chargemaster, it used to cost me 446 00:35:31,514 --> 00:35:41,302 from my house, three public charging stops, because I had a really short range vehicle, to get up to Yorkshire used to cost me about £3.50 in public charging. 447 00:35:41,302 --> 00:35:45,596 It's now going to cost me £6 in e-VED to do the same distance. 448 00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:52,871 So that's the way public charging has gone up or how it was six, seven years ago versus what it is now. 449 00:35:52,871 --> 00:35:54,373 what the EVED is going to be. 450 00:35:54,373 --> 00:36:00,757 that comes back to the point that you were making earlier, which is that we do need to be looking at the cost of public charging and how we can reduce that. 451 00:36:00,757 --> 00:36:05,840 Because if we can reduce that, it takes the sting away a little bit from the three pence a mile. 452 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,311 I still think it's the wrong solution at the wrong time. 453 00:36:08,311 --> 00:36:16,587 But if we can sort of normalize some of the or equalize some of the costs associated with it, it becomes less of a sting. 454 00:36:16,587 --> 00:36:17,667 Do you think? 455 00:36:24,897 --> 00:36:28,215 I remember when I was driving Polestar just before COVID using InstaVol charger and all I need to make sure I have got 20 quid on me and that would have been plenty for me to 456 00:36:28,215 --> 00:36:39,178 charge the car and go about my day because I live in a terrace house so charging from home means I have to take the three pin through my bathroom which is optional. 457 00:36:39,178 --> 00:36:40,769 But I like InstaVolt. 458 00:36:40,769 --> 00:36:47,020 know, for me it was much easier just to go, tap my cards and I was ready to go further. 459 00:36:47,020 --> 00:36:52,056 And I still remember I just need to make sure I have 20 quid and that was was enough. 460 00:36:52,056 --> 00:36:57,533 So Victoria, do we think this is a marketing problem more than anything else? 461 00:36:57,533 --> 00:37:05,522 If they'd approach this in a different way and marketed in a different way, would it be something that people would be more receptive to than they are at the moment? 462 00:37:05,522 --> 00:37:10,765 I think it could have been solved by changing the communication style for sure. 463 00:37:10,765 --> 00:37:13,165 I think it could have been communicated a little bit later. 464 00:37:13,165 --> 00:37:15,799 I think it could have been communicated simpler. 465 00:37:15,799 --> 00:37:26,025 And I think it would have been good if the charging operators as well as automotive manufacturers have been consulted before this message have been put out there. 466 00:37:26,025 --> 00:37:29,407 yeah, communication style probably needs to improve. 467 00:37:29,407 --> 00:37:33,008 But I guess it just needed to go out there so people can start prepare. 468 00:37:33,008 --> 00:37:36,429 But now we have to fix it. 469 00:37:36,429 --> 00:37:38,870 We now have to find a way to deal with this. 470 00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:45,392 And I think this is the challenge where CPOs companies like Zapmap and automotive manufacturers will have to face. 471 00:37:45,392 --> 00:37:53,067 They need to find a way to make it easier for the consumer to understand that it's still the right choice to make. 472 00:37:53,067 --> 00:37:57,019 And it's still the right choice to make with their car or with their 473 00:37:57,019 --> 00:37:58,254 charging provider. 474 00:37:58,254 --> 00:38:06,305 because the irony is this is something if it does come in, it's going to be coming in from 2028, whereas from September this year. 475 00:38:06,305 --> 00:38:08,447 fuel duty is going to rise. 476 00:38:08,447 --> 00:38:13,499 because of the way fuel duty works, will rise with the RPI or CPI, whichever. 477 00:38:13,499 --> 00:38:23,193 So by the it gets to 2028, people who are still driving petrol and diesel will actually end up paying more than somebody who's driving electric vehicle at the three pence a mile. 478 00:38:23,193 --> 00:38:25,134 But that wasn't communicated that way. 479 00:38:25,134 --> 00:38:29,547 I mean, if it had been communicated that way, I think the public perception would have been different. 480 00:38:29,547 --> 00:38:31,588 Yeah, that's a very different message, isn't it? 481 00:38:31,588 --> 00:38:43,639 But I guess that's the, don't want to scare the horses because as soon as they make any kind of reference to fuel duty increases, then they've got a lot of people on their case. 482 00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:44,270 So yeah. 483 00:38:44,270 --> 00:38:45,871 Yeah, yeah. 484 00:38:45,871 --> 00:38:52,165 the other thing with the eVED, I've been involved in a number of discussions about this, including one where the Treasury were present. 485 00:38:52,165 --> 00:38:57,057 And at the time when we discussed this, this is a pay in advance. 486 00:38:57,057 --> 00:39:02,440 So you have to estimate what your mileage is going to be and pay it upfront. 487 00:39:02,571 --> 00:39:06,224 And if you sell or get rid of the car there is no refund. 488 00:39:06,224 --> 00:39:10,377 Although I believe they've now walked that back after complaints. 489 00:39:10,377 --> 00:39:14,756 If you want to pay in installments, you will pay more. 490 00:39:14,756 --> 00:39:17,156 It just, you know, it's one of those things that... 491 00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:18,847 why are they doing it this way? 492 00:39:18,847 --> 00:39:24,993 Even if people thought this was a good idea, some of those are ridiculous kind of constraints that they're putting in there. 493 00:39:24,993 --> 00:39:34,872 But hopefully because of the pressure that companies like organizations like EVA England and EVUK have been adding to the treasury, I think they're starting to moderate some of 494 00:39:34,872 --> 00:39:35,914 the situations there. 495 00:39:35,914 --> 00:39:41,671 we shall see when the, because the consultation closed yesterday as of this recording. 496 00:39:41,671 --> 00:39:46,129 or two days ago, so we'll see what comes out of the consultation. 497 00:39:46,731 --> 00:39:47,533 Interesting. 498 00:39:47,533 --> 00:39:53,760 that they will be recording the number of miles you've made during MOT. 499 00:39:53,760 --> 00:40:02,680 So why not to just add that cost to MOT cost and then you can kind of estimate in your head, but at least it's a bit simpler, right? 500 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:08,356 You do your MOT once a year and then you pay the additional chargers. 501 00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:13,674 So the two reasons they won't do that is first, MOTs are only on after three years. 502 00:40:13,674 --> 00:40:15,555 So what about the new vehicles? 503 00:40:15,555 --> 00:40:16,547 Do they not pay it? 504 00:40:16,547 --> 00:40:20,030 And second one, who's actually going to administer the gathering of that? 505 00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:24,865 Is it the MOT company, the company doing the MOT who will take the money and then have to transfer it? 506 00:40:24,865 --> 00:40:30,290 Or will the MOT then say, this is how much you pay and you've got to go to a website and pay it. 507 00:40:30,290 --> 00:40:31,996 And you know, it's just, it's 508 00:40:31,996 --> 00:40:35,669 poorly thought out as to how you will understand this. 509 00:40:35,669 --> 00:40:43,345 I think the other thing is people are going to start looking at clocking speedometers or odometers so that they won't show the value thing. 510 00:40:43,345 --> 00:40:48,088 Little fact I found out recently, and I'm sure people in the comments will validate this. 511 00:40:48,088 --> 00:40:50,512 It's not illegal to clock a vehicle. 512 00:40:50,512 --> 00:40:54,615 It's illegal to sell a vehicle that's been clocked and not say it's been clocked. 513 00:40:54,615 --> 00:40:56,287 but it's not illegal to clock a vehicle. 514 00:40:56,287 --> 00:40:59,193 So how's that gonna work with e-Ved? 515 00:40:59,193 --> 00:41:01,117 It's just completely bizarre. 516 00:41:01,117 --> 00:41:02,559 Completely bizarre. 517 00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:04,742 Any final thoughts before we move on? 518 00:41:05,775 --> 00:41:09,157 I shall take the silence as saying, no, we have no final thoughts. 519 00:41:09,157 --> 00:41:09,837 Fine. 520 00:41:09,837 --> 00:41:12,068 So I think that's about it for today. 521 00:41:12,068 --> 00:41:13,399 I think we've had some great discussions. 522 00:41:13,399 --> 00:41:14,140 Thank you, everyone. 523 00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:17,752 And to the listeners, I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show. 524 00:41:17,752 --> 00:41:20,763 It was put together this week with the help of Jade Edwards and Victoria Hutton. 525 00:41:20,763 --> 00:41:23,704 Many thanks to both of you for your participation. 526 00:42:23,717 --> 00:42:31,401 If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms or other general messages to pass on to me, I can be reached at info at evmusings.com. 527 00:42:31,421 --> 00:42:36,144 On the socials I'm on bluesky at evmusings.bsky.social. 528 00:42:36,264 --> 00:42:43,949 I'm also on Instagram at evmusings where I post those little short videos in the odd podcast extract regularly. 529 00:42:43,949 --> 00:42:45,359 Why not follow me there? 530 00:42:45,501 --> 00:42:53,783 Many thanks to everyone who supports me through Patreon on a monthly basis and through coffee.com on an ad hoc basis. 531 00:42:54,103 --> 00:42:57,604 Now, if you enjoyed this episode, why not buy me a coffee? 532 00:42:57,604 --> 00:43:01,386 Go to coffee.com slash EV Musings and you can do just that. 533 00:43:01,386 --> 00:43:05,107 KO dash FI dot com slash EV Musings. 534 00:43:05,107 --> 00:43:06,647 Takes Apple Pay too. 535 00:43:07,487 --> 00:43:09,848 Regular listeners will know about my two e-books. 536 00:43:09,848 --> 00:43:14,279 So you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable. 537 00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:20,892 Now they're 99p each or equivalent and you can get them on the Kendall store on Amazon. 538 00:43:20,993 --> 00:43:28,757 Now check out the links in the show notes for more information as well as a link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles. 539 00:43:28,860 --> 00:43:40,587 Now I've spoken to a few of you and I know that you're probably driving, walking, jogging, ironing or sat on the sofa watching this on your phone but if you can remember and you 540 00:43:40,587 --> 00:43:47,240 enjoyed the episode drop a review in iTunes please, like, subscribe, leave a comment on YouTube because it really helps. 541 00:43:47,313 --> 00:43:50,585 If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. 542 00:43:50,585 --> 00:43:53,177 Why not let me know you've got to this point by messaging me. 543 00:43:53,177 --> 00:43:59,148 at musingsv.beesky.social with the words, halfway there, hashtag if you know you know nothing else. 544 00:43:59,148 --> 00:44:01,051 And thanks as always to my co-founder Simon. 545 00:44:01,051 --> 00:44:02,764 You know he's been very quiet this week. 546 00:44:02,764 --> 00:44:04,077 I bet he'll be back next week. 547 00:44:04,077 --> 00:44:05,730 Thanks for listening and watching. 548 00:44:05,730 --> 00:44:06,491 Bye now.