PART ONE

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season 5, Episode 44 of PeopleSoup. It's Ross McIntosh here.

[00:00:06] Michaela: People listen to what, or see what I do, they don't necessarily listen to what I say. So I had to really work hard with that embodied leadership of stepping into. Who am I when I am with, you know, my inner circle group coaching program in my own home? There's only four women in that program because there's only four seats around my table, apart from me.

[00:00:27] And that version of me who is At home, at ease, comfortable, in my yoga leggings, serving them in an evidence based, psychological practice way. But being my full self, who I am? That person also needs to be on social media, otherwise they'll be jarring. People then think that here's someone who's got a perfectly curated feed and always wears makeup and Like, what message does that send to women who feel that they're never enough?

[00:00:55] Ross: Pea Soupers, here's the first part of my chat with Michaela Thomas. Michaela is a Senior Clinical Psychologist, CBT Psychotherapist, Author, and Corporate Speaker.

[00:01:07] Her first book is called The Lasting Connection Developing Love and Compassion for Yourself and for Your Partner. She's also the creator and host of an award winning podcast called Pause, Purpose, Play, Which I thoroughly recommend. And she offers support for individuals, couples and groups on issues such as perfectionism, excessive worry and low self esteem.

[00:01:28] one of her most recent initiatives is the facilitation and curation of a group coaching program called Burn Bright.

[00:01:36] this is transformational group coaching for the ambitious working woman who needs to be nicer to herself and calm the overwhelm, And if that sounds interesting, please listen on. Michaela is open about her life experiences and how she supports others. And you'll find more details of the Burn Bright program in the show notes.

[00:01:54] You'll also hear how she's making space to write her second book on the theme of perfectionism. [00:02:00] How she's an embodied leader for her community and beyond. The impact of striving for perfection and her first training as a clinical psychologist in Sweden where she was taught that you don't speak about anything in your private life.

[00:02:13] For me, The clarity of Michaela's expression reflects her deep inner work. Now, for those of you who are new to PeopleSoup, hello! Welcome! Great to have you on board. we are an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun. Our mission is to unlock workplace potential with expert perspectives from contextual behavioral science.

[00:02:51] Let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for our last episode, which was part three of our chat with Kerry Cullen, expert in polyvagal theory.

[00:03:01] Over on Twitter, Helen McGillivray said, I really got a lot out of this podcast, thinking about applying act from a polyvagal perspective. Thanks so much, Helen, and everyone who listened, rated, and reviewed. That's exactly what I hoped would resonate with Act folk.

[00:03:16] The similarities between Act and Polyvagal, and the potential to blend them. Now, P Supers, you might have heard that the bookmarks have landed. These are new, freshly designed and printed bookmarks. And each review that's read out on the show will receive a couple.

[00:03:30] What more of an incentive do you need, P. Supers? The bookmarks will be dispatched by our global distribution center in the northeast powerhouse that is led by Big G, my dad. bookmarks to Peru, so distance really is no object. But for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Michaela Thomas.

[00:03:57] Michaela Thomas, welcome to People [00:04:00] Soup.

[00:04:00] Michaela: Thank you. I'm really excited about this.

[00:04:02] Ross: Yeah, me too. Me too. So, as you know, we have a research department here at People Suit Towers, and they've done a bit of digging about you. So I'd like to share with you what they found out, and you just sit back, but don't, don't sit back too far, because they don't always get things exactly right. So it says here, McKayla Thomas is a senior clinical psychologist and CBT psychotherapist.

[00:04:29] She's an author. And her book is called The Lasting Connection, Developing Love and Compassion for Yourself and for Your Partner. She's the creator and host of an award winning podcast called Pause, Purpose, Play, which I would thoroughly recommend. And she offers support for individuals, couples, and groups on issues such as perfectionism, excessive worry, and low self esteem. One of her most recent initiatives is that she is facilitating and curating a group coaching program called Burn Bright. A transformational group coaching for the ambitious working woman who needs to be nicer to herself and calm the overwhelm. And I just love that description.

[00:05:11] It really resonates with me, but I don't think I'm eligible. But, Amen. Hats off to you.

[00:05:17] Michaela: Thank you. Wow, it's always interesting to receive that description, the, the story of one of my identities, one of my roles, one of my hats. So yeah, that's the professional side.

[00:05:29] Ross: Yeah, well I've got a bit about your background too, so they say Michaela grew up in Sweden under the Scandinavian ethos of welfare, equality and balance. She was interested in psychology from a very young age, so trained as a clinical psychologist. And what does she love? She loves connecting with others and helping them find their way out of the darkness. And as part of that journey, Michaela came to the UK in 2010 to pursue her dream of helping more people connect with psychological therapy with less [00:06:00] shame and stigma. And fast forward a bit to today, she's married with two toddlers and she also founded the Thomas Connection. Because she's always cared about connecting with people. In fact, her career has been devoted to psychology and wellbeing. She used to work both in occupational health in an NHS hospital and in IAPT primary care psychological services before now fully devoting her time to the Thomas connection. How are we doing so far?

[00:06:30] Michaela: Pretty accurate. I think your researchers have done a thorough job. The only thing is that the children are not toddlers. One is a toddler and one is a school child. So I have a seven year old and a two year old.

[00:06:40] Otherwise it's pretty bang on.

[00:06:42] Ross: You see, I, I struggle with the identification of when toddlerism stops and, so, seven and two.

[00:06:50] Michaela: Seven and two.

[00:06:51] Ross: And at the moment we've got a lovely friend from Brighton staying with us, with her son who's five. And boy is he a live wire. He's super chatty in two languages and is keeping me on my toes.

[00:07:07] Michaela: Yes, well my children also chat in two languages, and it does take a lot of head space. Um, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of my spoons used up every day to go between languages.

[00:07:19] Ross: Yeah, I can imagine that, that attention and that energy devoted to just that.

[00:07:25] Let me just continue. Throughout her journey so far, Michaela has found ways to live in a perfectly imperfect way. And she seeks to share that with others. And speaking of journeys, Michaela has recently returned from a spacious adventure.

[00:07:39] which we're going to find out more about in our conversation. It was a 10 day solo trip to Vietnam. And finally, the research department has heard some whispers. I'm not sure if you can comment on these yet, Michaela, but um, They say that you're already thinking of a new challenge accompanied by a film crew this time with a spacious [00:08:00] adventure emulating the adventures of Phileas Fogg traveling around the world in 80 days.

[00:08:05] Well,

[00:08:10] Michaela: but I love the, I love the sound of that. If someone would have my children and give me the, unlimited do this adventure, sounds good. But yeah, unfortunately that's not quite true.

[00:08:21] Ross: you never know if we put it out there someone from say Netflix might be listening and they might go Hey, I like the cut of this lady's jib

[00:08:34] Michaela: Yeah, I do, I do love watching, uh, Race Across the World, so you never know if that's going to be, uh, the next adventure for me and, uh, you know, apparently manifesting is trendy these days, so if we put it out there, you never know.

[00:08:47] Ross: Trendy and valid are two different things.

[00:08:51] Michaela: Yeah, they, they often actually are opposites, I find.

[00:08:56] Ross: We'll take a punt anyway.

[00:08:58] Michaela: Yeah.

[00:08:59] Ross: But remember, I said it first.

[00:09:01] Michaela: That's very true, I'll give you credit.

[00:09:05] Ross: Brilliant.

[00:09:05] Michaela: Well, it's probably more accurate that I'm writing on my second book. So that's another adventure that I try to make spacious. because it's about perfectionism. So, that has made me really face all the demons and make you really do this work from the inside out because you can't write a book about letting go of perfect and being kinder to yourself and, you know, facing the shame and this idea of over productivity and hinching all your self worth on your achievements, you can't write a book about that in a way that becomes stressful and a risk of burning you out.

[00:09:42] So I'm really, really thinking about how to make the next book writing very spacious. Spacious for me, for my mental health, my physical well being, my family life. So it's not just something I cram on top of it, as we often hear. Clinical professionals who write books just stack it on top of the other [00:10:00] things and work in the evenings and the weekends And that is just an absolute non negotiable self boundary for me that I do not cross those Those limits.

[00:10:09] I'm not limitless. I'm very much a limited edition

[00:10:14] Ross: Absolutely. And that's super exciting to hear about that book. And what sort of timeframes are we looking at?

[00:10:22] Michaela: I have no idea, Ross, if I'm really honest, because it wasn't accepted by my current publisher. No hard feelings, it just wasn't the right book for them and they had something in their library that would potentially be too similar.

[00:10:33] To here

[00:10:33] Michaela: So I'm now publisher hunting. So yeah, let's put that out there. So if anyone knows of a good publisher who would be interested in my second book, then let me know.

[00:10:45] I'm looking for the best home for it. That's how I've reframed it in my mind. because rejection obviously is painful. Rejection hurts. Especially when you have an ADHD brain that's sensitive to rejection. So, I try to just meet myself where I'm at with that. Give myself some space and some grace.

[00:11:01] I've not written for a couple of months and now regrouping, looking for a publisher for it to find the best home. Because I actually think my publisher and I were very much in agreement that Publishing House wasn't the right place for it. Place for this book there will be a better home for it. So he's given me lots of tips or where I can Move forwards with this.

[00:11:19] So yeah making that a spacious adventure as well

[00:11:22] Ross: at this moment, I'd just like to press pause and acknowledge you for the great courage I see in you. In writing this book, just a few examples there, Paysupers. In writing this book, you really going deep into that inner work. So you can really represent it out there on the page to support others is so courageous and powerful for me.

[00:11:45] Michaela: Yeah, writing my first book, which obviously was about developing compassion for yourself and your partner, it did make me really consider the relationship dynamic I was in and, you know, am I always kind to my husband? Am I always kind to myself? [00:12:00] So, I know this phrase of practicing what you preach is quite an, you know, old one, but there is truth to some cliches because they capture universal human experience and, and being able to You know, to swallow my own pills, so to speak.

[00:12:14] I teach the lessons I most need to hear

[00:12:14] Michaela: And I think, rather than saying practice what you preach in a very preachy way, self punitive way, I think of it more as I teach the lessons I most need to hear. So whenever I teach this in Burn Bright, my group coaching program, you know, in our weekly coaching calls, I feel like I'm talking to The old version of me, who was very self critical, who felt ashamed, who always strived for more, uh, more achievements and didn't feel good enough.

[00:12:40] I feel like I'm not just talking to these women who are a few steps behind me, I'm talking to the version of me that was there, who I need to constantly tell that message to.

[00:12:49] Ross: Gosh. and one of the other things I really applaud you for is, is living your life out loud. Really thinking how you can take your own experience plus all your clinical expertise to support others. And in your social media. You really tell it how it is from your own experience. it kind of has this approach from me of, hey, it's okay. It's okay not to enjoy crafts or it's okay not to enjoy the Christmas preparations or the, the trials and tribulations of Christmas. I think you are a really important role model for us all.

[00:13:26] Michaela: Hmm. Well, sometimes it's referred to as embodied leadership, but I think of obviously being trained in compassion focused methods as well as ACT, I think of it as much more as Compassionate, in which version of me is present on social media, because social media is a, is a huge beast of, of problem. And if you show up there as a practitioner, being all the things you're trying to tell people not to be, or to notice when they are being, like, perfect or hard on themselves, I mean, monkey see, monkey do, right?

[00:13:56] Embodied Leadership

[00:13:56] Michaela: People listen to what, or see what I do, they don't necessarily [00:14:00] listen to what I say. So I had to really work hard with that embodied leadership of stepping into. Who am I when I am with, you know, my inner circle group coaching program in my own home? There's only four women in that program because there's only four seats around my table, apart from me.

[00:14:16] And that version of me who is At home, at ease, comfortable, in my yoga leggings, serving them in an evidence based, psychological practice way. But being my full self, who I am? That person also needs to be on social media, otherwise they'll be jarring. People then think that here's someone who's got a perfectly curated feed and always wears makeup and Like, what message does that send to women who feel that they're never enough?

[00:14:44] Um, looking at someone else who sits there and looking like they never have a problem or they're enjoying all the Christmas crafts and never shout at their kids or never do all those things that they do, uh, that triggers their failure stories. I really think it's very important to lead with that example, that it is okay to show up being your, you know, I don't want to say the words, your authentic self, because you know, we have many selves, but show up as a way that signals that this is who I am and that is enough.

[00:15:14] The Tea Party

[00:15:14] Michaela: And. One of the most liberating things I heard in this sort of space of online business Was someone who said I'm not everyone's cup of tea But I am someone's shot of tequila and I found that quite liberating although I don't like tequila I find that absolutely vile and I don't want to bring alcohol in it.

[00:15:32] So I made it my own I said I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but I am someone's tea party and That's how I then started taking out my finest Japanese bone china for tea parties at the home retreats So that I can serve these women and really, really treat them, really help them receive. So, sitting there sipping from someone's finest china, knowing that's been taken out for them.

[00:15:57] Permission

[00:15:57] Michaela: Not just, Oh, we'll take that out when [00:16:00] someone important comes, but actually they are the important ones. You know, I practice a lot more of those things now, of receiving and giving myself the allowance to have those pleasures in life, taking out the really finest china, making some really nice banana bread or whatever it is I want to make for them.

[00:16:17] And I think that permission piece has been the bit that has unlocked all my other practices, the pause, the purpose, the play practices that I talk about on my podcast, that without the permission piece We can know all the stuff, we can be aware of all the self care practices and self compassion practices but we're not doing them because we don't allow ourselves the permission to receive that, to have that compassion flowing in.

[00:16:43] So, that's a long winded way of explaining how it's really important to me how I show up and who I am and needing to kind of let my different circles, sort of the psychologist circle and the, You know, who I am as a private person, needed to overlap a lot more than they used to when I first trained, when I first came into clinical psychology when I was 19 and was told by, you know, my first ever supervisor that, you know, you don't speak about anything about your private life.

[00:17:12] There was the whole tabula rasa, the blank slate, and I remember with You know, horrible anxious agony when I think back to this memory. A young person who was asking my supervisor, Did you, you know, was it stressful to go to work today? You know, the young person was very anxious and they were trying to make small talk.

[00:17:33] And the stone faced response from my supervisor of not discussing that. So I knew well that he commuted by bus to work because I had to Awfully sit, you know, two seats ahead of him because he wouldn't sit with me because that was, you know, private sphere and professional sphere could not mix. And that was my first journey into thinking that this is what a psychologist is.

[00:17:58] And I still remember the [00:18:00] agony, the misery I felt in my body. A visceral sense of, I'm feeling this awkwardness, this pain in this young person asking a A question and not being given a answer because of how clinical psychology was supposed to be. A blank slate, tabula rasa. And I mean we're talking that's over, hang on I'm doing the maths, over 20 years ago.

[00:18:23] And it has really shaped my career that that's not how I want it to be. I couldn't do this thing of holding your clients in mind intellectually and not emotionally. This just was never possible to me. And 20 years later, I now know, with the ADHD brain, that my emotional intuition is very high. I have a high level of sensitivity to emotion, um, high levels of empathy and being attuned, and I can viscerally feel the feeling of others.

[00:18:50] And that means that I can't just hold them intellectually, be a blank slate and a tabula rasa. So I'm hoping that the more we now bring neuroaffirmative practices, where psychologists are open with Actually, I'm ADHD, I'm autistic, I'm dyslexic, or whatever it might be. As much as we have had queer therapy, people talking about the LGBTQ allowing that to be part of it.

[00:19:13] Allowing us to be, be who we are, the full identity. Be it, you know, a black therapist, a brown therapist, or an ADHD therapist. To bring that, and we're no longer the blank slates. I think that's really important, and that's why I bring that into social media as well. Because I'm okay with saying whether I commuted by a bus or walked to work today.

[00:19:34] Ross: absolutely agree and I think when we as coaches or facilitators of groups, if we are creating a facade or a barrier, it's creating some imbalance between us and the people we're working with. We want to show them that we're human too. We're not, we're not goddesses and gods of, we haven't nailed [00:20:00] all this thing called life, and the more we can be honest about what's going on for us, I think, well, I say the more, I think there's a balance, but I

[00:20:10] think some measured disclosure with the people we're working with can make things stick, can make learning stick, can make points stick, and can Create a more of a equality in in that relationship with the people we work with.

[00:20:27] Michaela: Absolutely, because it's, it's like a good DJ would know its audience, you know, and play the songs appropriate to the dance floor. And he needs to know the dance floor, he needs to tune in to the vibe. And I think, I try to do that with the people I sit with, so when I, before I do self disclosure, obviously I consciously think about this.

[00:20:47] Striving for perfection

[00:20:47] Michaela: And I ask myself, Michaela, you want to say this, this is on the tip of your tongue, is this about you? Or is this about them? If it's about them, it's that the story I'm about to share is something that has a psychological concept built into it, or it has a lesson, or it has a piece of common humanity to model to them that I'm human too.

[00:21:08] So we move away from that, the guru leader thing. and especially in my audience of perfectionists, they have a tendency to do what I call the pedestal and the pit. You know, it's much more with the all or nothingness that we get there, where the Guru leader sits on the pedestal and I can do no wrong.

[00:21:26] And if I don't wash away that, they will then inevitably, when I make a mistake or do something that isn't optimal, because I'm a human being who will try to show them imperfect perfectness, if you see what I mean, I will then fall into the pit. So I need to get that balance right from the start to show them that I'm not perfect, I'm not aiming to be perfect, because perfection is unattainable.

[00:21:48] And it's costing you an arm and a leg to continue to strive for that perfection. My job here is to show you instead the value and the power of self compassion for when you make a mistake, not if. [00:22:00] For how you allow and embrace those imperfections, how you bring them in and how you soften and let go around the intense control that you try to have.

[00:22:10] To prevent bad things happening in your life and knowing that when we soften that control when we release a bit more Good things happen. Your world is cracked wide open and the magic happens because you are looser You are softer. You have a spacious adventure in your life and you can live a more meaningful Richer, fuller life.

[00:22:32] So we do a lot of work around savouring, pleasure, and I know anyone who's listening is thinking, Pleasure? What does that mean? That's a bit racy. Um, that's not all I mean, obviously. It can be everything from savouring your food and allowing yourself the pleasure of actually putting nutritious food on your plate, allowing yourself to feed yourself, nourish yourself with good, nutritious food, and not just, like in my community, feeding yourself scraps or eating the leftovers from your kids plates.

[00:23:00] Which is a very common story. I forgot to eat today, or I grabbed something on the run, or I literally shoved the food off my kid's plate into my mouth, standing up by the kitchen sink, and that was my way of doing the dishes. That's the story I hear a lot. So, coming back to that sense of not being a blank slate, and thinking about what we share, Storytelling is the oldest form of human communication and it's incredibly powerful.

[00:23:24] This is why metaphors are so powerful when in act and why they're so memorable, because it connects with that sense of telling a story. So you just have to remind yourself of who is the hero in your story. And for me, I'm not the hero, the client is the hero in their own story. So I think of how am I telling my story or where I am at to show them that I'm just a few steps ahead of you.

[00:23:46] I'm still human, I'm still make this, I still make mistakes, I still get hooked by my, my perfectionism from time to time. But the times are fewer and further between and I catch myself more quickly and I more gently steer [00:24:00] myself back without the shame and the self criticism about it. Because it's probably going to be a lifelong thing for me.

[00:24:05] I'm probably going to have this. It's almost like being a sober alcoholic with perfectionism. It's probably going to be there and I have to then, as a way to be treating myself with kindness, I'll have almost like medicinal practices I have to do on a daily in order to remain well. Much like someone who was a sober alcoholic would need to still go into AA meetings, for instance, if that's the practice they chose to have if a 12 step program worked for them in sobriety.

[00:24:33] I think a bit similarly to that. So, in order for that to work, We do need to step into that darker place of when did it not work? What happens when I drift away from my healthy habits? What happens when I've not been self compassionate and been outright self critical? What happens when I shame myself?

[00:24:51] How do I share those stories as well? Because otherwise we become all or nothing about even the journey out of perfectionism. That in itself becomes the perfect pursuit of never failing, never being self critical, never being horrible to yourself. Always choosing the healthy choices, that becomes perfectionistic too.

[00:25:10] And we cannot come out of perfectionism by being perfect.

[00:25:14] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much for unpacking that and talking about your your strategies for perfectionism that take time and need to be attended to. I wonder if I could change text slightly. We've heard a little bit about your background, the details from my research department, but I wonder if you could tell us a bit more, expand on how you've got to where you've got to in your life today, and maybe some pivotal moments along the way.

[00:25:40] Long Fade Out

[00:25:40] Ross: And

[00:25:46] Michaela: age eight that I was meant to look after others. You know, my best friend, who's still my best friend in Sweden, were her parents were going through a divorce and I saw her suffer and I could feel it.

[00:25:59] Ross: [00:26:00] That's it, pea soupers. Part one of my chat with Michaela in the bag. You know what they say, always keep them wanting more. Thanks to Michaela for being so open about her life and work, and there's much more to come in part two next week. and if you're liking the cut of Michaela's jib, and are interested in her Burn Bright program, you'll find the link in the show notes.

[00:26:23] and please do tell her you discovered her on PeopleSoup. Now, folks. We need your help. You can support us and help us reach more people with this behavioral science. So

[00:26:33]

[00:26:33] you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, we'd love you to do three things.

[00:26:37] Ross: Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe and give us a five star review, whatever platform you're on.

[00:26:45] Number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This would all help us reach more people and make some noise with stuff that could be useful. We'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at peoplesoup. pod at gmail. com. On X, formerly known as Twitter, we are at peoplesouppod. on the gram, known as insta, We are at People. Soup and on Facebook we are at PeopleSoupPod. You can also drop us a review or get in touch using a voice note on WhatsApp.

[00:27:13] Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves, peace supers, and bye for now.

[00:27:22] Michaela: What you see today, how I show up on social media, that is not what I was 10 years ago. That's not what I was when I was 19 and started studying psychology. That is not who I was when I was 8 and felt I needed to take my best friend home and keep her safe.