You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast.

This is a conversation with Carmen Emmy, writer, director of Plainclothes.

In a way, I kind of had to throw out that idea that it had to be technically perfect.

I'm glad I have the technical knowledge I have, but I have to know when to throw that out in order to better serve the story and just follow, like, your gut and your heart.

The film had quite a journey since Sundance, Newfest, south by London, now Frameline, just to mention a few.

So I guess to begin with, what kind of a space does a queer festival like Frameline or newfest present for a film like Plainclothes?

And to separate the two a little bit, what does it mean to you specifically, especially when it comes to a story so personal?

Well, it's just been.

It's been so fulfilling to experience this movie with audiences, especially audiences in the queer community, but just audiences in general.

Everyone has been responding so positively to it.

And the conversations that I've been having after the screenings, whether it be on Instagram or in person, have been really meaningful and I expected would happen fully.

It's something I wanted, but I.

You just never know when you're making these things if you know, if it will stick or if people will gravitate towards it.

So I'm very.

I feel very fortunate, and it's just been a very beautiful experience overall.

Yeah.

Could you tell me a little bit about the journey of the script itself for playing clothes from the Nickel Fellowship, Screencraft?

Yeah.

All these impressive credentials even before production.

I. Yeah, so essentially, I. I went to film school and I really wanted to direct, but it was, you know, it was kind of hard to get there.

And I was living in LA and I was doing.

I have a cinematography background, so I. I was shooting a lot, you know, but I. I knew that I wanted to direct.

And so in order to do that, you have to write, especially if it's your first one.

At least that's what I thought.

So I had to learn how to write, and I was thinking about the stories I wanted to tell, and I had recently come out, and so it just felt kind of right for me to journal and.

And through that process, this script was born.

Around the time that I came out.

My brother was becoming a police officer, and I had read something in an.

In the newspaper, in the L A Times about an undercover sting operation in Long Beach, California.

And this was in, like, 2014, but I learned about it in 2016.

I learned about these men who were being arrested for indecent exposure by undercover police officers.

And that was kind of shocking to me that that was happening so recently.

You'd think that with these sting operations, you're like, oh, that must have been the 40s or the 50s.

And it was.

But could still possibly be going on.

Like, we.

We might not even know.

Yeah.

So I started journaling and the character was born from there.

I did a lot of research with my brother, like through ride alongs, and.

And I really immersed myself in policing culture while also kind of during, like.

And this was all during my coming out.

So I was like, figuring out, like, what my life was going to look like.

And.

And I kind of did all of that through writing this story.

So in a way, it's kind of like a time capsule.

Sorry, that was long winded.

But that's kind of the genesis of what was.

Yeah, yeah.

And now that you bring up cinematography, I'm just gonna straight away latch onto it because it is such a passion of mine.

And I'd really love to spend some time with your background in the craft and this transition to writing and directing, especially considering how inventive and ambitious the project still is on the cinematography front.

Firstly, did you always see yourself as, above all a storyteller, or was there a point when you were, with the cinematography of it all, more invested in the technical side of filmmaking?

I think it started with me being interested in the technical side of filmmaking when I was like, 10.

But that was by way of falling in love with stories, I suppose.

But I was.

I was really interested in how to make that happen.

And I really loved still photography and I still love still photography.

I love taking portraits.

But in some ways it's just all kind of connected.

I feel like it's a balance.

I found that when I was trying to make Plain Clothes happen, I would shoot these proof of concepts and I got so hung up on the technical side for the first one that I did, where I wanted to make something that was aesthetically beautiful and, like, cinematic and reminded me of the conversation, which was like my big cinematic inspiration for this.

And I watched it and I just, like, I felt like my direction, it wasn't.

It wasn't right, it wasn't where it needed to be.

And I.

And mainly because I wasn't getting across the main character's anxiety in the way that I needed to.

And I felt like I could do that with the film format, you know, So I reshot, I did another proof of concept, and it was.

And in a way, I kind of had to throw out that Idea that it had to be technically perfect.

I just had to make something that felt honest and real to me, and that was really just like honoring the story.

So I don't know if that answers the question, but it is kind of like hand in hand in some ways, like, you have to have.

I'm glad I have the technical knowledge I have, but I have to know when to throw that out in order to better serve the story and just follow, like, your gut and your heart.

Absolutely makes sense.

And I know it's a big question, but in your experience, what do you see as the key to having the confidence to take that leap from DP to director?

I saw people do it, and I also wasn't that successful as a dp.

I think it was.

It was one of those things where I learned while I was doing it that what I really loved about it was camera operating.

That was.

I come from theater.

I come from a theater background.

I thought I wanted to act growing up.

And what I realized was, like, the camera, for me is like a character.

What I loved about dping was, like, the performance part of it, like, becoming a character with the camera or, like, figuring out, like, who the camera was in a way.

And I had a lot of conversations with DP friends who were just very.

Just masters of light.

I can shoot natural light very well, but in terms of setting something up, I get very anxious.

And I found that I wasn't serving the stories that I was being hired to dp, and so I stepped away from it because it just didn't, you know.

But I'll always operate.

Like, if ever.

I'm meeting a lot of, like, directors on this journey, and I'm like, if ever you need an operator, like, I'm down to come on for a day.

Like, I love.

I operated some of this movie, but taking that jump, I saw other people do it.

Like, Reed Marano was a DP on a show called Looking.

That was a very big inspiration for me.

Actually.

Russell Tovey, who was in my movie, was in Looking, and that was kind of like my first experience seeing gay men on television who weren't, you know, the comedic relief or something that we laugh at.

It was such a great show.

Gosh, it's such a great show.

And Andrew Haig just came to our BAFTA screening in London, and I got to talk with him.

He's the director of Looking, and he directed all of Us Strangers, and he is just an incredible, incredible man.

Such a genius.

So down to earth.

But, yeah, Looking.

I was really into how that.

How the show visually looked.

And so I followed Reid Marano a lot, the cinematographer.

And then she started.

I think her.

She's directed a movie called Meadowland.

And that, to me was like, okay, wait, maybe I can.

Maybe I should focus on directing.

So I tried to.

I guess that was kind of helpful for me to see.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And one last question regarding cinematography.

What's your current perception or relationship with the craft?

With this experience?

Did it change how you think about the role of a DP and cinematography as a whole?

Huh?

No, I mean, it didn't change, but I learned so much from Ethan Palmer, our cinematographer.

I was supposed to work with another DP on this, and he had to drop a few weeks before production, which was tough because his.

It wasn't anything, you know, no conflict between us.

It was just his schedule, and our schedule just didn't work.

And that was kind of.

I went to film school with him.

His name is David Bolan.

He shot a movie called Thelma last year.

He's a very talented person, but everything kind of works out the way it's supposed to because Ethan hopped on and he just brought this very, like, Zen, calm energy to set that I really.

That we really needed.

Not that I was, you know, a mess and, like, you know, yelling.

Actually, the one rule on set was no yelling.

But he just had this very calming presence.

And he came in even though there was, like, no time to plan anything.

We shot, like, the first version of our shot list, but we just, like.

He kept saying, like, we just.

We have to think about this in terms of broad strokes, and we'll just, like, narrow it in as we go.

And that was very freeing for me.

He taught me a lot about, like, directing in a weird way and, like, the.

The qualities that I want to bring to my role as a director.

And he was just super observant.

You know, he would.

I would be running around with my Hi8 camera that from when I was a kid that we shot some of the movie on.

And he was like, you know, I'm noticing that you're standing on that side of the room, but you're zooming into the person's eye on the other side of the room.

He was like, so we're gonna need, like.

And I always knew I wanted to use zooms in the movie.

He's like, so, you know, we thought we had to use, like, this size zooms.

We need to use, like, really big zooms.

So he was just.

By watching what I was doing instinctually, he was able to make Technical decisions.

And I think that's so rare in DPs.

I, I haven't, I haven't come across a DP like Ethan in my experience.

So it's.

Yeah, it was just a really lovely experience.

And we shot it so fast.

He had, he had experience shooting 18 day shoots before ours was an 18 day shoot.

And so he brought that knowledge to, to this because I had never done that before either.

Yeah.

And to steer our conversation back to the story, the script and everything around it.

And yeah, once again, the personal element and you working with your brother so closely on.

Even though the story comes from you, from within you by you.

Did any of the turns it took or you took scare you or surprise you at first?

Well, I mean, yeah, the, the sting operation scared me.

A lot of the research I did, I learned about some things in our history that aren't so pretty.

There was a sting operation in Mansfield, Ohio, where police officers, you know, recorded men in a bathroom.

And we actually were able to use that footage in our film.

But like, watching that footage is very haunting and to get to kind of preserve it in our film in this emotional way is, I guess I don't even like think I fully even feel the weight of it.

But it's a huge deal and it will be in there forever.

That it wasn't scary, but it was a very sobering experience in some ways.

Yeah, shooting in 18 days is scary, but yeah.

With that in mind, the sting operations, you're taking what could be the premise of a cold blooded procedural and turning it into something utterly unique, beautiful, romantic, interwoven with this palpable shame in the form of what feels like an everlasting panic attack.

And yeah, because from the outside, the complexities and layers of this film have the makings of the perfect creative entrapment for a filmmaker, especially for someone working on their first feature.

So in hindsight, how do you see yourself navigating the hurdles you posed for yourself?

I think it did go back to like, I always just kept saying to myself that story comes from character and character comes from emotion.

And so I was always just focused on like the emotion of the scene and what I needed to convey.

And I think because I grew up in a time, you know, I grew up in the 90s, we were always like, there was always new technology coming out, like every year.

It was like something was changing.

And so when I look at my film and I see like how it has this mixed media format, it makes sense because of that.

Just like how I grew up.

I was I grew up having like one camera and then it was like the phone and then I was learning to shoot on film in film school.

It was just like all of these different things that kind of informed my like film background and that kind of like helped me navigate this, you know, I felt like I had so many different tools to express myself and it kind of created this mosaic of a vibe that I'm, I'm really excited about.

I really just wanted to show people.

I wanted to express what it feels like to police your feelings.

And I feel like a lot of people can relate to that.

Not just queer people.

We all have a secret, you know, and we all.

That secret has tormented us so.

And that's kind of what I wanted to convey.

And I was able to do that with these different technical aspects.

I suppose there's a lot of working with my team too, and trusting them.

I'd like to quickly talk about the ending without spoilers, of course.

And the reason why I bring it up is because to be honest, it's pretty hard for me to recall the time when a film stuck the landing in such a striking yet on point manner.

So once again, no spoilers.

But at what point or when did you know what the ending would be, where you'd like to end up with the story and where to arrive?

I always knew the ending.

Yeah, I always knew.

Yeah, I think that that was like.

I think there was, there was a YouTube video that I saw.

The writer of Little Miss Sunshine, he said he, it was like all about endings.

I think it was a talk he did at Pixar.

My friend Jeff sent it to me in film school.

For me, especially as a first time writer, knowing that ending is so important, it just informs everything.

And knowing my ending and knowing my midpoint, the middle part of the film, when he has a bit of an awakening, I guess I always knew that and that just helped me navigate how I was gonna write it.

But yeah, I always knew what the final frame was gonna, was gonna be.

It was helpful for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I guess now we know where our conversation ends, but I really hope we get to reconnect rather sooner than later, but yeah.

Carmen, once again, thank you so, so much for your time and for the film itself.

I absolutely loved it.

Yeah, of course.

Oh my God.

Thank you.