Hi and welcome back to Faith Fueled Living.

This is your host, Kristen.

Today we are talking about the four keys to mental health.

We're going to dive into how taking care of our mind, body and spirit makes all the difference to feel good.

You know, both our bodies, but also our minds.

And how do we battle things like worry and anxiety and even things like stepping into feeling depressed or really having depression.

So my guest today is a pastor, he's an author, and he often educates and speaks about how do we, you know, care for ourselves and really have good overall health and how do we keep ourselves mentally healthy.

So I can't wait to share this with you because it's so full of wisdom and nuggets that you can apply to your own life and it maybe help other people in your lives as well.

Welcome to Faith Fueled Living, the podcast that equips you to live well spiritually, emotionally, physically, and purposefully.

Each week we'll dive into conversations and biblical truths to help you strengthen your faith, pursue meaningful work, care for your whole self, and live in line with what matters most.

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And I know you're going to love them.

One's called Joy Rising.

It's a daily gratitude and joy journal, and it's basically a daily check in for you to write down what you're grateful for, what bits of joy you experience in your life, and how you saw God being present in your life.

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Hi.

Today on the podcast, I want to welcome our guest, Steve Larsen.

He's a lead pastor of Community Celebration Church in Cason, Minnesota.

He's a sought after speaker and he's taught on mental and spiritual health in churches, conferences, recovery centers, and community groups for many years.

His viral videos about mental and spiritual well being reach thousands each week and he lives with his wife Tammy and two children in Rochester, Minnesota.

And today we're going to talk about his Book the Four Keys to Mental how to Feel Better, Think clearly and Enjoy Life Again.

And we're also going to talk about his reason for writing this book and speaking on this is because he himself walked through anxiety and worry and also depression.

So I'm so excited to share this conversation with you today because so many of us walk through these same places.

We, whether that's worry and anxiety or whether it's depression or other mental illnesses.

So I can't wait to share some of the strategies he has for you, some of the mindset shifts and just some of the things he's learned along the way.

Hi.

Today on the podcast, I would like to welcome our guest, Pastor Steve Larsen.

Today we're going to talk about his new book called the Four Keys to Mental Health.

And I'm so excited for this conversation because it's a topic that has the statistics show us mental health struggles, mental health illness, us experiencing depression, anxiety, worry, loneliness.

The numbers are going up and it's, it's affecting people of all ages.

You know, I have my own stories to talk about in this episode as well about this, you know, our own family experiencing this.

So I'm excited because I think the more of us that talk about it, the more times we talk about it, then we can have open conversations about it and we can know what to look for.

We can know how to get help and how to have the wellness that God wants for us and the resources he wants for us as we walk through all the things that life will, will bring forth.

So, Steve, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's a delight to be here.

Thanks.

So can you tell us just a little bit about, you know, the reason you wrote the book and just a little bit about what life looks like for you?

Yeah.

So back in 1996, I felt a calling to start a church and I pursued that calling and everything was going great until a about four years into the church plant and our church started to experience a lot of conflict and I didn't know how to deal with it.

And it led to a lot of anxiety and stress that I didn't know how to handle.

And I found myself just sinking deeply into a deep depression.

And I was so depressed that I decided I was going to quit the ministry.

But our church said basically, and my overseer said quit, take up sabbatical, a three month sabbatical and then decide when you get back if you're going to quit or not.

So I actually did that.

When I left the sabbatical, I really didn't have an intention of staying in the ministry.

But as I was on that sabbatical, I started to learn a lot of the reasons why I had sunk so low.

And three months later, when I came back from the sabbatical, I just made a promise that I never wanted to sink that low again.

So I started to begin this search, this quest to find tools to experience better mental health and well being.

It was kind of like I felt like a person who was drowning just looking for a life jacket.

And then our district of churches asked me to start teaching this to newly credentialed pastors.

And I've been doing this for about 20 years now.

And basically the book came out of that.

The book came out of my pain.

I believe that God allows us to go through difficulties so that we can help others.

Our hurts are our credentials for helping others.

So the book kind of just came from my story.

Yeah.

So good.

Well, you know, and obviously I've gone through the book now and you know, we're going to dig into the four keys, right?

There's four aspects of being healthy and having wellness in all areas of our, in our, you know, mind, body, spirit, if you will.

Even though we'll talk about mental, physical, spiritual, relational.

But as I sort of alluded to as I started to introduce you, it's so important because even in my own house I have three college young and young adult age sons.

And we've walked to that with one of our college age sons.

Other sons of mine have said that, you know, they were struggling with some things, some of their friends have, you know, struggled with these things.

And so it's just, it's so prevalent and so the more resources we have that are down to earth, that makes sense because one, not everybody's going to.

And we'll of course get into, you know, like when should you get help and what are what sort of resources?

Even though that's not the crux of your message.

But the point is, is the more we know as parents, as spouses, as the people that might walk through a hard time might start having some of these things, the more we're educated on it, the easier it will be to address or to get the help we need or to know the tools we can use.

And so that's why I'm excited for this.

So why don't we just first talk about what are the four areas that we sort of need to look at when we're looking at our health and wellness to be a healthy person.

Yeah.

So 25 years ago, if someone would have come to me with anxiety and depression, I would have said, you need to pray more and you need to read the Bible more.

And praying and reading the Bible is obviously the most important thing.

But what I've discovered in my quest is you have to include some other areas as well.

And as I collected all of my research, I realized that those four keys fit under Luke 2.

52, which says, Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and favor with man.

So he grew in wisdom, he grew mentally, he grew in stature, physically, relationship with God, that's spiritually, and relations with other.

That's relationships.

So it actually came from that.

Those are the four keys.

Spiritual, mental, physical, and relational.

And it's summarized in Luke 2.

52.

I love that.

Yeah.

So what would you just say?

So what would you just share with us about your story?

And like you said, you just felt like you just kept going deeper into this place where you didn't really know how to address, you know, everything that was getting thrown at you.

And so what would you say helped you kind of get from that place to moving into a direction where you felt, you know, you were not going deeper into this hole.

Right.

Of depression and not knowing how to handle anxiety and things.

Yeah.

I think what I discovered was that just like a person in recovery needs to work their program, I need to work my mental health program, and it includes the four keys.

So the question is, what am I doing spiritually, what am I doing physically, what am I doing mentally, and what am I doing relationally?

And once I put those four pieces together and am working the process program, it helps me to.

From going back.

And it's an ongoing.

It's an.

On the.

The.

One of the things that I hope people get from this book is not just a reactive response to I'm in a deep depression, but also how do I stay healthy in the Lord and in.

In my mental health?

Because mental health, you know, someone has said, if you have a brain, you have mental health.

And the question is, is it.

Is it healthy right now?

Is it difficult?

I've had both.

And I've learned that these four keys help me to get out of that darkness and also keeps me from going back there by the grace of God.

Yeah.

Well.

And I think the point, even though this might be a different order, obviously than in the book, but is all of these parts are connected, just like you reference Luke and how that's literally right in the Bible there, but it's, you know, later in the book, you Talk about how even our, you know, our thoughts are connected to our physical health, but they're connected to our spiritual health.

But in other words, it's all tied together.

So sometimes maybe you physically don't feel well.

Well, that then affects the different parts of your life, but it just starts there versus sometimes it starts, you know, with our, our mind, our thoughts, you know, maybe what, what's kind of weighing on us.

And so in that case, that'll affect everything else.

And so I think sometimes there's more conversations about this now, but to your point, a decade ago or more, I think less people, you know, just regular people were talking about this.

That one area affects so much the other areas.

And so I think it's so important that to your point, just because you don't feel like doing something, and I know in the book you talk about feelings and we can dig into that, but that's why having a plan matters.

Just like I might not feel like going on a walk or going to go work out, but I know that it's good for me, doesn't mean I won't miss it.

But having a plan, right.

And so that's why, you know, like you're saying, for our mental health and for our overall well being, we need a plan.

And we need a plan in all areas because the research shows that when we, we make strides in each area or we kind of have tools that, that will keep us, like you said, kind of moving up and, and hopefully going towards thriving instead of struggling.

Yes, absolutely.

Yep.

It's one of the things that I learned was called living in the and which means I acknowledge my feelings.

I may, I feel like staying in bed today.

I don't feel like going to church, so I acknowledge my feelings and I'm going to work the plan by God's grace.

So it's acknowledging how you feel.

I feel sad, I feel scared, and I'm going to go for that walk.

And am I perfect?

Of course not.

But I think that's kind of what you're saying, is acknowledging your feelings, but don't let them lead you.

Someone said feelings are indicators, not dictators.

And it's about following the Lord and his commands.

And so, yeah, absolutely, yes.

How would you say though, first?

So obviously some people listening might either just know somebody struggling with some, some of these areas or, or maybe they've walked through it.

But some, somebody listening might be struggling with some of this now and they might be thinking, yeah, but when I don't want to get out of bed or I don't want to do this thing.

I really don't want to do the thing.

So what did you find practically helped you do the.

And right.

Like I feel this way and I'm still going to like what, what practically did you do to.

To make yourself kind of keep moving forward, if you will.

Yeah.

I think the first thing I would recommend is to go see your primary medical care doctor and rule out that it's a biological source.

For example, I struggle with low thyroid and if my thyroid is low I will experience symptoms of depression.

So that would be the first thing I would just say to you is have you ruled out a biological root cause of it?

And then, you know, just asking the Lord to give you the strength to work your plan.

And something that helps me.

Like for example, one of my favorite mental health tools is exercise.

And I don't ever really feel like exercising, but I feel so good after I exercise.

And something that I learned, if there's something that's difficult for you to do, just say, you know, I'm going to do it for three minutes.

And often if you do it for three minutes, you'll be like, why can keep.

Like I don't like doing taxes.

I like literally just, you know, it's like, oh, I got to do this.

Well, I'm going to just do it for three minutes and then once I get started I'll do it longer.

But so that's something that I've helped.

But again, I would really recommend a person if they're struggling with anxiety, depression.

There's a bunch of things.

Talk to your primary care physician first and rule out a biological source.

Yeah.

But yeah, you bring up a good point as well about, you know, doing, doing something for a short period of time or doing something you enjoy because I think even the habit building new habits talks about that.

Right.

Is that we will not maintain something in this new habit if it's something we really dislike.

So for instance, if you don't mind walking, that's great exercise.

You don't have to go running.

Right.

Or walking with a friend maybe then you see that as a catch up and you don't feel like it's actually exercise.

So you know, you also want to do that we actually don't hate doing because I think we're more likely to stick to doing them.

So whatever that looks like for you.

Right.

In some of these different healthy habits, if you will.

Yeah.

One of the things I recommend in the book that I learned somewhere else was start a life giving list.

What are the things that Breathe life into you.

And I think that's kind of what you're saying.

And instead of doing an exercise that you, you don't like at all, what is life giving?

And maybe it's walking, maybe it's being out in nature and so.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that I talk about that as well.

Like the life giving, life training, you know, it's, it's important to do inventory.

I feel like that on, on occasion because sometimes we don't realize maybe we're doing a really good thing like volunteering, but it could be just sucking the life out of us and maybe it's not the right season anymore for that.

Maybe we need to pause something, know.

So you do have to kind of.

We need to do assessments.

Right.

Of our life, of our activities, of how we're feeling, you know, so we need to, that's the only way we're going to kind of keep a.

Have a litmus test of how kind of life's going.

I think so.

Good.

So I know you talk a lot about, you know, we really need to know our core values and then we need to start there.

Core values and what matters to us.

So what would you share with us about that and how that's really tied to our overall health?

Yeah, I just, you know, in this book I talk about the story of Mary and Martha and how, you know, Martha was busy, busy, busy, and Mary's just sitting at the feet of Jesus.

And Martha gets, you know, kind of upset with her and Mary.

Jesus actually takes the side of Mary and says she's doing what's right.

And Jesus teaches us a value there that being needs to come before doing.

And what I encourage people to do is sit at the feet of Jesus and allow him to help you define your values.

Values say that this is more important than that.

And so what are.

I recommend no more than five to seven.

Just what are you doing?

Your core values, what are the things that matter most to you?

It's easy to allow that which matters least.

Someone said to get in the way of that which matters most.

So.

And one of the reasons this is so important is if you struggle, let's say with depression, your energy is lacking, at least mine was.

You don't have that much energy.

So the energy you do have, investing it in a value, what is this going to move me towards my core values?

And it's making sure also that your values align with God's values.

Yeah, well, and I think that's also a good point about the energy and the values in other Words.

Well, two things.

Right.

You bring up in the book, when we know what our values are and what's important to us, we need to prioritize that into our schedule.

They shouldn't come last.

Right.

Because if we say my faith's important to me, but we're not doing any faith activities during most of the month, or my relationship with my spouse is important, but we're not scheduling time to have that one on one time or whatever it is.

So one, that's whether you're going through something with your anxiety or mental health or not.

The point is, this can keep us at a healthier place, is putting the priorities on our calendars.

But then you also talk about, well, I guess when we don't do that, that shows us that we're really not focused on our priorities.

So anything else you would say about how scheduling that time can kind of keep you moving forward, keeping you healthier?

Yeah, I think someone said that we don't.

Or someone said we make time for what's truly important for us.

So how can you.

You say this is a value, this is what's important.

And if you don't put it in your schedule, it's easy to just let lesser things crowd that out.

So I think it's about proactively, with God's help, planning your day, saying, lord, what do you want me to do today that align me to my values?

I think one of our biggest struggles in our culture is distraction.

Someone said we've been a culture of mass distractions.

And it's so easy to spend hours just going through your phone and all that stuff and you get done and it's like, what did I just invest my time in?

And so it's really just.

It's organizing and executing your life around core priorities that you glean by sitting at the feet of Jesus.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So three things is when you're talking about the.

Your energy, right.

Especially if you're kind of feeling overly anxious or, or you're walking through some level of depression, is if you know and you have a plan, for instance, relationally.

Right.

Both your spiritual relationship with God and then with others.

And you know that at the end of the day or later in the day, you're just like, I'm done.

I don't want to see anybody.

I just want to get in my pajamas.

Well, then for you being aware of that in scheduling, in maybe coffee with a friend at lunchtime or in the morning before work or whatever, for you, it's being aware that, you know what my Energy isn't great and as the day goes on, I don't want to see anyone.

So then it's like having little strategies and having that plan to say, how could I adjust my schedule so that I'm hitting these different things?

So I think, and that was what I was going to bring up is just once again it comes down to awareness, having a plan and then looking at our life, our schedules, and then making choices we don't have to be beholden to.

You know, kind of what life throws at us, if you will.

As far as our schedules, the other thing you talked about is scrolling.

And I agree.

I know we both read the ruthless elimination of Hurry, that book.

And to your point, so many of us don't realize how much time we're losing by scrolling or watching a streaming TV service.

And I'm surely not saying I'm not guilty of that some too.

If I don't put boundaries in place, then nights will go by and I'll definitely do that as well.

But it's once again, some people say I don't have any time for whatever it might be, a hobby, I don't have any.

But most of the time it's once again that we're not actually noticing that we are in a sense wasting time.

Right.

We could be doing something more productive or something that would make us feel better.

Right.

Like maybe a hobby where you're using your hands or maybe you like to cook.

And so instead of because screaming, I mean scrolling.

Right.

They say a lot of us, if you go online, you feel worse after doing it.

Well, that's not helping our mental health either.

And so we need to be aware of what triggers are making us feel worse.

Correct?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let me ask you this.

You and I both talk about gratitude and often and I know you talk about it in your book, but tell me a little bit about the practice around gratitude that you just recommend to people, you know, especially just to keep us mentally healthy.

Yeah.

I think that gratitude is the attitude of thankfulness and it's looking for what you can thank God for.

I remember it's very healthy for you.

It's one of my favorite mental health tools.

And the Bible says that give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you.

So people ask, well, what is God's will for me?

Well, I just shared it with you.

It's to be thankful not for all circumstances, but in all circumstances.

And it's sometimes, as someone said, it's looking for what went right and what went wrong.

And it's just looking for things to be grateful for.

So I try to practice gratitude two or three times a day in the morning.

I call it the bookends of gratitude.

Practicing gratitude in the morning and then at the night.

So kind of bookend your day with gratitude and just looking for what you have to be thankful for is one of my prayers is, Lord, help me to see the beauty of the ordinary.

Help me to see the abundance I already have.

We live in a culture that teaches we need more and more and more, but it's like, help me to see the abundance I already have in you and just to develop that grateful spirit.

And something else that is really helpful is that I call it the two sides of the coin.

So let's say you're going through.

Well, let's say my depression experience.

Obviously it was very painful at the time.

It was, you know, it was, it was very challenging.

The other side of the coin, though, is it gave me empathy for people who are wrestling with mental health.

It gave me a platform to.

So I call it the two sides of the coin.

Is you acknowledge the difficulty, but then you.

What's the other side of the coin?

All things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to purpose.

It doesn't say all things are good, but that God can bring good out of all things.

So the, the gratitude to me is one of my favorite by far antidotes to mental health challenges.

Yep.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I just like, like, like you said, I like the way you phrase it, the bookends of gratitude.

You know, I often do at least one write down gratitude things once a day.

But I also, some days I don't do it every day, do micro gratitude practice, which is just a dialoguing with God throughout the day.

And just whether it's on a walk or I'm eating something, you know, and I'm just saying to him, you know, or praying to him just out of my mind, like, lord, thank you for this amazing basil or this delicious flavor.

Like, how did this combination is amazing, you know, so it's just kind of that awareness, right, that it all came from him.

And so, you know, however we do it, I think the point is, is when we're focused on being grateful, when we're focused on being thankful once again, it's, it's outward instead of internalizing.

Maybe, you know, what was we're struggling with because we all know, you know, you talk about this too in the book, when we set our sights on other people doing things for Other people, checking in on other people.

Even if we're not feeling our best in that particular day, it shifts how we're feeling within us.

Right.

Like at a spiritual level, heart level.

And so it's just that idea that.

That gratitude changes us.

It rewires.

Right.

Every part of our body.

And they've even proven that having practice of gratitude or just having those kind of thoughts affects our body, our physical body, in positive ways.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I know another, actually, before we talk about that.

So I do want to talk a little bit about worry and then also forgiveness in worry.

It's that.

Well, I think even if someone hasn't struggled with different levels of depression, most of us have probably, especially in the last many years, struggled with too much worry and anxiety.

I have definitely walked that path many times, and I've.

I've had to really take it, you know, pray to God to be like, you know, I need you to take this from me because I. I realize I've become.

I've gotten in a pattern that.

That wasn't healthy or, you know, I couldn't control the situation, but it was consuming much of my thoughts.

And so I've.

I've walked those paths as well.

But what did you just say to us about what is worry really doing to us and why do we want to just keep, you know, bringing that to God and.

And how we can do that?

Well, I think the root word for worry is to choke.

So it's choking the life out of us.

And I call, you know, rumination is meditating on what's wrong or what could go wrong.

Biblical meditation is meditating on God.

And it's.

Instead of meditating on people's imperfections, it's meditating on God's perfections.

And worry just chokes the life out of us.

And I cite a study in the book that just shows that.

The thing is, is that most of what we worry about never comes true.

So it is a costly sin.

It robs us of times with our family.

It robs us of.

Of times with the Lord.

It robs us of the fruit of the spirit.

But it is something that I have wrestled with for most of my life.

So it's just something that is easy to do, I think, and that's why Jesus talked about it.

And so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

And for me, I find just trying to reframe it right when I have those.

Those thoughts creep in.

Just remind myself I can't control the outcomes.

I can only pray about something.

I can.

But I have to Let it go, right?

Like, I have to let it go to God and.

And know that no matter what happens, whatever I'm, like you said, you know, worried about or I'm ruminating about is I don't really have any business to be worrying about that.

Right.

And so I really have to remind myself, and then I have to try to replace that with some other thought or activity to try to refocus myself.

And then there's a lot of tools to do that, right, to kind of refocus your thoughts.

But I do find that those are very helpful.

What about forgiveness?

Because I think holding on to unforgiveness is obviously, one, we're told not to do that.

But two.

And you talk about that in the book.

But two, it also harms us.

It can.

It just weighs on our body.

It weighs on our mind.

And so what would you just share with us about that and why we would want to release that?

Someone has said that unforgiveness is the poison we drink, hoping someone else will die.

So unforgiveness poisons us, and it's holding on to that hurt instead of acknowledging it.

It hurt, it mattered.

But I release you.

And, yeah, unforgiveness is.

It's that poison going through your soul.

I heard analogy once of.

Imagine a person walking through the woods and they were stung, not stung, but bit by a rattlesnake.

At that moment, they have two choices.

The one would be to get revenge.

I'm going to chase after that snake and hurt it because it hurt me.

Or number two, to realize I have poison in my body.

I need to go to the hospital and get that poison out.

And when we have unforgiveness in our heart, it's like that poison running through our body.

We're trying to get revenge.

We're.

We're focused on that.

But the healthier thing to do is to get that unforgiveness, that poison out of your soul.

One of the things that I do when I'm struggling with someone that has hurt me is I just pray over and over, Lord, I bless them, I forgive them, and I wish them well.

And I may not feel like it, but I'm saying that in faith.

And sometimes it's praying it a hundred times a day.

I bless them, I forgive them, and I wish them well.

Lord, help me to forgive.

And the reason we forgive others is not because they deserve it.

We forgive because Jesus Christ has forgiven us.

I did not deserve to be forgiven, yet Jesus forgave me.

And that's why we're called to forgive others and to realize that forgiveness and trust are two different issues.

When we forgive someone, it doesn't say that we automatically trust them them.

We're just releasing the right to settle the sp.

We're releasing the right to get even.

We're saying, God, this is in your hands.

Yeah.

So good.

You know, I thought it was also interesting that you give.

Well, obviously throughout the.

Your book, you talk about, you know, scripture, and then you have some stories obviously from the Bible.

But, you know, you talk about lamentations.

My soul is down, downcast within me.

And you talk about how there's several people in the Bible who wrestled with depression or these things.

So is there just maybe one story from the Bible that you want to share that you think would be relevant to the conversation?

Yeah, I mean, I think the classic example is Elijah in First Kings 18.

You know, he has this Super bowl victory on Mount Carnal, and he overcomes with God working through him, the Ba'al and those folks.

And then one chapter later, he sinks to suicidal depression level.

And I think that that is.

I think one of the amazing stories of the Bible is just how this great man of God one day was just on top of the mountain, and the next he's saying, God, kill me.

I want to be done.

And if you do read the Bible, you will see that others went through.

Through it as well.

And I found that that is a really big part of the healing process, is just understanding you're not alone, that others are dealing with this as well.

In fact, in the book, I tell the story about going to the Rochester Public Library.

And at the time, I felt a lot of shame because here I am a pastor.

We're not supposed to have problems.

We're not supposed to.

And I was dealing with this depression, and I felt so much shame.

And I went to this library and literally, a cassette tape.

Do you get.

Do you remember cassette tapes?

Okay.

A cassette tape series fell out of the bookshelf into my hands.

And it was on dealing with anxiety and depression.

And I brought it home.

And on one side of the tape was a teaching on anxiety and depression, but on the other side was a story, a testimony of a pastor who wrestled with depression.

And I just remember how healing that was for me, because I thought, you mean I'm not the only one.

Yeah.

So just that that fellowship of suffering, that.

That knowing you're not alone is so powerful.

And as I read the Bible, there are others who went through these struggles as well.

Yeah.

I mean, I actually think it's so important.

One, I agree with you.

It's, it's encouraging that the Bible shares even these, the side of life of others that walk through this.

Two, I absolutely know what you mean though, about seeing yourself in someone else's story and that you're not alone is so important for, I mean, I've talked to, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people over the last couple years on my different podcasts and no matter what they're going through, it's when they no longer felt alone and that they could share with someone else that's walked through it, that they had this hope that they didn't have prior to that.

And so I think you're right.

One, I just had an interview with a pastor from Texas a couple weeks ago and he shared that I forget if it was five years ago, but a handful of years ago he walked through depression and he openly talked about that.

And you know, but I think like you said, if you don't talk about it, then other pastors, other people in ministry or even people at your church, because I think not saying someone has to walk through something to help somebody with something, but, but being somebody that helps people, right?

In ministry, if you've walked through that, you can help people in a different way now in that area, right?

If you're not a parent yet, you may not be able to help your church, you know, the parents as well, until you're a parent.

Like.

So I think one, like you said earlier, right, we can use these experiences to help other people.

Two, knowing that someone else walked through this makes us not feel so alone, you know, and that there is hope.

And so I think that's so important.

And I remember when my, one of my sons was walking through a severe depression, I would tell people that I knew, I mean, not just random people on the street, but, and I shared it.

But it was because what if my story of sharing what, what we went through and kind of how that looked would help someone else because maybe then they would notice when their child was going through something because we also unfortunately in my area, you know, it's a good size area.

I sadly know people of people that have lost young people, 12 years old and 18 year olds, right.

That that did not choose to get help.

And so, you know, I share the story because helps someone else that may find themselves in this place or they share with me that they've had someone in their family or whatever it might be going through this.

And so once again, instead of hiding and feeling shame about it, you know, I was willing to talk about it one on one with people because you know, I knew that I would want someone to do the same for me.

Like, oh, I didn't know that, I didn't know to look for that or I didn't know, you know, what to do.

So I think it's so powerful, you know that like you said one, you talked about it when you found that example because obviously that was some time ago.

And then that gave you even more hope that you know what, I can keep working on this and I can feel better.

So I think that's so good.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, okay, so one thing you talk about, one of the tools that you use and that you recommend is journaling, right?

The abcde journaling.

So can you tell us about that and how you feel?

Like that's helpful.

Yeah, it's such a valuable tool.

And basically it's when you find yourself worked up, when you find yourself triggered when your insides are uneasy.

What I like to do is I like to just call a timeout and I like to go and process it on paper.

And if you were to see my day planner, I old fashioned, I still use paper, you would see sometimes I do this twice a day, sometimes I do it quite often.

And the first step is to just to become aware.

And this was a big step for me in that I would have this intense emotion.

I would just find my insides just boiling.

And the first step is just to become aware that it's happening.

So you would just write down I'm feeling anxious because I'm feeling angry, because my hands are sweating, my heart is pumping.

You just become aware of the current reality within you.

So that's kind of the, the, the A, the B is to bear it.

And what that means is to just kind of recognize that this is your current internal weather.

It's kind of like it's raining outside here right now.

That's what it's doing, it's raining, I can't change it.

Sometimes what we can do is let's say I'm feeling anxious right now.

Instead of just accepting that as a temporary emotional reality, I then become angry that I'm anxious and then I become ashamed that I'm angry that I'm anxious.

And do you see what I'm doing is I'm stacking all these things on top of it.

So that's the bear component.

The C stands for call upon God.

One of the things I love to pray is lord help me to see what's really going on here.

Because often the external issue Is not the issue.

It's symptomatic of something deeper.

So you think you're mad because of the remote control situation, but maybe there's probably something deeper that is going on.

So Lord, help me to just respond in a wise manner way.

And the D is where you just challenge.

Our thoughts lead to our feelings and our feelings lead to our behavior.

So you're asking what's going on in my mind?

What are the thoughts that I'm thinking that are maybe causing me to be anxious?

And the main question is, is that true?

Is that true according to the Bible?

And I found that this is probably one of the most important parts is, is to just analyze what thoughts may be leading to, how you're feeling.

And then the final thing is where you just say what is the wise way to respond?

So instead of just responding in your anger, someone said it's moving from your emotional mind to your wise mind.

In other words, going from that triggered state to that you've processed it with the Lord and then how are you going to respond in a wise way?

So it's just a little format that I've found that is just so helpful.

Yeah, well, I think, gosh, yeah, I agree with you.

I mean, just one.

Having the process.

But the first key to that is that you're pulling yourself out of a situation where you could have boiled over in that normally is not going to end well if it has other people on the other side.

And so just taking yourself out of that.

And I think those are such good steps, especially like awareness, slowing down, really seeing what's behind it, you know, all those areas.

Because so many times if you're frustrated or angry or anxious and when you get out of that thought of like, oh, I'm so whatever.

And you wait a second, like you said, you pay attention to your thoughts.

Is it, what is it?

I, I feel like they ignored me.

I feel like I wasn't hurt.

Like there's a feeling or a.

We think something behind the reason why you're boiling over.

But if we don't give ourselves that time and that time to reflect, then we're going to miss it.

And sometimes people keep repeating these patterns without realizing it.

Like, oh, what's my part of this equation?

Right.

You know, so, yeah, I think that's really powerful.

And I think with so many things, if, if more of the time we would take time to stop and do some of this stuff, we would find ourselves in a better place.

Even if it's.

I keep having this one gloom and doom thought And I can't ever get out of my head.

Okay, well, maybe then that's where you need to go.

Work with somebody that's going to give you more tools, more resources, more, you know, whether that's a pastor, whether that's a, you know, counselor, whatever it might be.

But in other words, if you don't really know what's going on with you and you're never writing it down, you're not going to see patterns either.

And so I think it's, you know, that's important as well.

Yeah.

Okay, so any other maybe.

Is there another tool that we haven't talked about or resources that you just want to recommend that you feel like is just a powerful one that's helped you, you know, just have better mental and overall mental.

Better mental health and overall wellness?

Yeah.

I think that one of my favorites is exercise.

And you know what really got me hooked on exercise is when I understood what it did to my brain.

And, you know, there's just a ton of research that shows that exercising your body energizes your mind.

And I tell a story in the book about going to the doctor because I was so fatigued.

And during that conversation, the doctor found out that I had stopped exercising.

And he said, why did you stop exercising?

And I said, well, it's because the last doctor I saw told me to stop exercising because I had a bad cold.

He said, well, how long ago was that?

Two weeks ago.

He said, well, how long you been really tired?

And I said two weeks.

And then made the connection that the importance of exercise.

Someone has said that motion affects emotion, so.

And walking.

Yeah, you talked about it earlier.

Walking is such a powerful thing.

Another thing I love to do is rucking, and that's walking with a weighted backpack is a really neat exercise.

But exercise is one of my favorite mental health tools as well.

Yeah, you're right.

And there's so many studies now on that, on the importance of it.

And even if you're somebody that is walking through depression or other things like that, the data shows that it is one of the best tools you can use, actually.

So, like you said, that's it's something to think about.

And like you said, you may not feel like it, but, you know, try to find a way that you can fit in a little bit at a time.

Right.

Like you said a couple earlier, you know, even three minutes of getting outside in the fresh air and taking a walk, maybe it's just around your going half a block, but any of it's going to start getting you know, those Right.

Habits to help you start hopefully feeling better.

Even my husband, who's not walked through depression or anything like that, he.

When he doesn't do some sort of workout, and he plays in a lot of, like, men's, you know, sports leagues and stuff now that he's done coaching our kids, but he says, ah, I feel so horrible if he doesn't work out.

Like, he just.

It makes him feel.

Maybe not.

He.

Sometimes he might say depressed, but he doesn't actually mean depressed, but he just feels like you just.

He just doesn't get that.

That release.

Right.

That positive endorphins.

It doesn't.

You know, his brain doesn't feel as good when he doesn't exercise, you know, and so.

And we're all more sensitive to some of these things.

Some of us miss a day because we're so used to doing it, and it has a big impact, and others of us could maybe miss a day, and it doesn't do that to us.

But to your point, it really is very powerful.

So I love that.

Okay, so as we wrap up, two questions for you.

One is, is there anything fueling you right now?

It can be something about your faith, or it can just be a great, fun activity you're doing or seeing family.

Is anything fueling me?

Like, as in.

Yeah, just like getting you excited or motivated or happy.

Just fulfilling you, filling you up.

Yeah, I would say one of the things is.

Is definitely reading.

I've learned that if I'm not reading and not learning new things, that I kind of get depressed a little bit.

So I've just.

And I.

And reading is actually really good for your brain as well.

So I kind of took some time away from reading.

I mean, my normal role as a pastor, I read a lot.

But I'm just saying, like, just focused reading on other things is been very helpful.

It's been feeding me very much.

I love that.

Okay, so any last words of encouragement before we wrap up?

Yeah, I would just say that victory comes from vulnerability.

In other words, there is no shame in wrestling with mental health struggles.

We had a group at our church, and they did this exercise where the group leader asked the group, what do you think of when you think about someone struggling with cancer?

And they said, champion, hero, role model.

They then asked, what do you think of when you think of someone struggling with mental illness?

And the group said, wacko, crazy.

And that's the problem in our culture is we, as someone that stigmatize certain kinds of brokenness over others.

We're all broken in different ways.

That's why we need Jesus.

And don't be afraid to get help.

I mean, you probably need help fixing your car.

I know I do.

There's no shame in reaching out and getting help.

It's okay to not be okay.

Just don't be not okay alone.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

I love that.

All right, so, Steve, tell us, where can people connect with you, learn about your book and all the other things you're doing online?

Yes.

So you can get the book at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Christian book distributor, just about everything else.

I do have a YouTube channel and you can check that out.

Just look up Steve Larsen.

And that's another way to connect with my ministry.

Wonderful.

Well, thank you so much.

I love that you released this book because I think, you know, we definitely need more resources in this area.

And I thought it was so well written and it has so much great information in it and I think very useful information.

So thank you for putting it out there and then coming on and talking about it with us.

Thank you so much for having me.

I really appreciate it.

Absolutely.

And I just wanted to mention again, if you haven't already joined my online community and you're not getting my weekly emails, head over to KristenFitch.com you can grab one of my free workbooks, the Joy rising Daily gratitude and joy Journal, the rewire your mind from negative to joyful Thinking, or the Reignite your passion workbook.

I know one of those will be perfect for you to kick off the new year.

So go grab that and then get inspired.

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