Welcome to the six figure business mastery podcast, where every week

Kirsten and Jeanne dive into the essential topics to fuel your business

growth, from copywriting to course creation, mindset to video marketing.

They've got you covered tune in for expert guest interviews on all things,

marketing and business, and learn how to work on your business, not just in it.

So get ready to unlock your business potential and take it to the next level.

Welcome everyone to our newest episode.

We're thrilled to have you here today.

We also have an amazing guest.

Her name is Masha Koyan.

Her company is Content Vertical, and she is a messaging strategist and

website copywriter for interior design.

She has a signature reveal process, a data driven framework centered

around client interviews, giving her the intel she needs to write copy

that magnetically, almost magically attracts designers dream clients.

So we Masha.

Hi ladies.

Thanks so much for having me.

I love that that just magically connects your ideal clients because isn't that

what everyone wants, that you don't want the clients that are not ideal for you,

there's someone else better to serve them.

So tell us a little bit about how you make that happen.

Absolutely.

As Jeanne just alluded to, I do have a framework and it's essentially a

voice of customer framework, meaning.

I don't just write copy.

I write copy basing it on audience insights that I collect

for my client's ideal client.

So I Simply interview them.

I interview them and I get to know them, which is how I get to know them.

And then the end result is always the copy that resonates with the right people.

Like you person just said, what we want is for our messaging, marketing,

messaging, website, copywriting, to really attract the right clients and

almost to repel the wrong kind of client.

Because when your copy speaks to everyone, that's saying that it speaks to no one.

So we really want to speak to the right kind of client.

I know.

And what I think when you talk about the fact that you interview their clients,

I think that so many people overlook how important market research is, and

that is a form of market research.

And that's one of the things that Jeanne and I do before we roll out

any sort of new program is we do a ton of research by interviewing

people and finding out what would you.

Do you want in this program or what would the transformation be like if you had it?

So getting into the mindset of that person to find out does your ideal client

actually want what you're offering?

And what made you go down this road of okay.

Let me interview My clients, happy clients, so that I

can really use their wordy.

What took you down the path to make that decision?

Cause it's brilliant.

Thank you.

So I think where it all started is a few years ago when I joined one of the

mastermind groups, as we all do, we join coaches and mastermind groups.

And everybody kept saying, you got to find your differentiator.

You got to find something that really separates you from

all the other copywriters.

And.

Back in the day when I used to write website copy, I would

interview my clients, I would get to know their brand story, do the

research, but then I would write.

And the missing link was the voice of customer.

That's what was missing because when I finally said, okay, so maybe my

differentiator is the fact that I actually interview clients and I created a whole

framework around client interviews.

This is just one of the steps, but one of the most important steps in this framework

and what it gives me is that when I interview clients, Not only do I really

get to know them, get to know their pain points, get to know their frustrations,

get to know their decision making process.

How do they make decisions?

How do they pick you out of all the other service provider, whatever

business you're in, but it also allows me to capture their voice.

Because that's a tricky little element that when I write copy, I want to make

sure that I'm right, that I'm using the right language, the language that

actually resonates with ideal clients.

And that's what client interviews give me.

Not only, like I said, not only they give me pain points, the aspirations,

the values of critical audience Intel.

But it also gives me their voice, those little nuances, how they

refer to your line of business.

What are they looking for?

What seems familiar to them?

Because that's what we want.

Because at the end of the day, when they land on your website, you want

to make sure that the client feels seen, heard, and understood, and the

reaction that you're going for is, Yes, she gets me like she totally

gets me and she has a solution.

That's how I came about to creating this framework.

Amazing.

It's so interesting.

I bet you hear when you're interviewing the client, I bet

you hear some really interesting stories from their perspective.

Always.

And I love them because here's the thing.

When you.

Ask your clients at the end of the work to get, Oh, when you sold a product or

you sold a service and you ask them to, to give you a client testimonial, that's

one thing, but when I actually talk to them, I give, I get so much more.

I get anecdotes, I get real life scenarios.

And the most interesting part is when I talk to my clients and I ask them.

What do you think your clients pick you?

Like, why do you think they love working with you?

Where did your last client come from?

And they always say, Oh, it's my customer service or it's my process.

That's what it is.

And then I go and interview their clients and it turns out

it was completely something else.

And the client says, you know what?

She just got me.

She just really listened.

She listened to what it is that I wanted.

She, and then others say she made it so much fun and that's what it is.

So at the end of the day, it's like this.

Human to human connection.

And that was the whole thing.

I realized that what we're trying to get is to create that emotional

connection with your marketing messaging.

And I felt that the best way to do that, obviously there are other ways,

but I felt that the best way to do it was to actually interview them, to

actually talk to them one to one, to understand, and to get more than just

a simple customer testimonial, because nothing is worse than you're working

with a client for three, four months, and then you get, yeah, this was great.

That's it.

There's so much more that could be said.

So client interviews allow me to get so much more.

And then I craft a testimonial based on all the insights that I've collected.

So the testimonial at the end of the day is a lot more rich

and emotionally resonant.

I'm not going to ask you what all your questions are, but can you just

give us one of the more one of the questions you ask that gets the most

interesting answers to, of course, yeah, and I'm happy to talk about it.

So one of the questions I usually ask is what surprised you so I work

primarily with interior designers.

But one of the questions that I ask is what surprised you about working with

so and so with a service provider?

That's where I'm trying to understand their mindset prior

to hiring a service provider.

I want to try to understand where they are today or where they were before

hiring the service provider that changed their life or whatever that is.

And then after.

So typically the things that I get is I didn't realize it was going

to be so expensive, for example, with an interior design project.

Costs escalate.

I didn't think it was going to be.

Take so much longer, or maybe I didn't expect it to actually be fun that I

just wanted somebody to get things done, but I actually loved collaborating.

And another thing that I usually get is something like, I actually

didn't think she was going to be able to capture my vision, but she did.

So that's always interesting.

Another thing that's that's important that I ask is, what were the main

hesitations or concerns that you've had throughout you working together?

Because that what that allows me to get at the insights that I'm trying

to get is What are the objections?

Because at the end of the day, the marketing messaging that we create

after has to overcome the objections has to overcome and address the

questions that our prospects have.

So it's a very strategic question that I asked, and typically the insights

that I get, I simply translate that into website copy and I proactively address

them rather than wait for the person to ask the question, your messaging, your

website messaging and marketing messaging can simply address that proactively.

So quick question, because I do work, we do work with one interior design client.

She's been with us since 2017.

And it's really interesting because I feel like interior design has

changed a whole lot since HGTV, right?

I feel like interior designers used to go into someone's home and they made it look

like what they wanted to make it look.

That interior designer generally had their own style.

And that's if you wanted that type of style in your home, that was

the designer you hired, right?

And things have changed.

People want.

They're home to look and feel like them, not a boutique hotel.

And it's really interesting because what we have found is that our client

also often runs up against the fact that the person has already hired

an interior designer in the past.

And that could be recent past or years ago and had a terrible experience.

But now you go into that appointment already with the cards

a little bit stacked against you.

And it can be fearful because you think, Oh my gosh, there are, They had this

terrible experience and I always say embrace it, ask them what went wrong.

What would they like to have done better?

Because if you just take it head on and you just start asking questions

and you hear what they have to say, it lets them know you're listening.

And that's what most people want is to be listened to.

So as far as working with designers and how things have evolved so much,

as far as interacting with their client, whether it's in person or in

their copy, How do you feel like you overcome that objection of that they

had a bad experience in the past?

So first of all, you actually spot on.

That's what I hear from clients as well.

During client interviews that they were either burned by a previous

experience working with another designer and You're also spot on that the

design landscape has changed before.

Yes.

People were maybe expecting like a signature look, like

they would come to a designer.

Although that's still, I got to say that still exists.

If you're working with a well known designer, like a Kelly Wurstler,

for example, you go and hire Kelly Wurstler because you want that look.

You want that signature look, that bold color is juxtaposition

of different mediums and things.

But most often if we're just talking about regular people, they want their home to

actually look like them, feel like them.

They want to be comfortable.

They want their home to represent them.

So yes, you do come across clients that got burned in the past.

So what you do is you really try to get to know them.

I agree with you.

I think you should go ahead on and overcome those

objections as they come to you.

So ask them, what do you think?

What's going on, what went wrong?

You want to try to get as much information as you can, and you

don't want to be sly about it.

You want to be like, okay, let's talk about it.

Let's talk about it.

What went wrong?

And then you present your solution in a way.

Here's how I work.

One of the most important things is.

Whether it's face to face or your marketing messaging is to present

your process, whether people are going to read it word for word,

because there's different types of personalities online, there's

different ways people consume content.

Some will definitely were read word for word.

Others will simply scan and skim.

But the fact of the matter is.

It is important that your process is well articulated on your website.

And if it is, if we are simply talking about website copywriting, do you want to

make sure your process is there and your process not only highlights how it is you

work, but also what value does it bring?

How does it actually change my life as a client?

So not just this is how I work, but also what does it actually mean to you?

Like, how are you going to make my life better?

Don't just say things like we deal with general contractors and no,

You are taking that stress away.

You know how to read technical drawings.

Like you're actually showing them what's it like to work with you

and you're overcoming objections more proactively rather than

waiting for them to bring it up.

Because it's true.

Clients come to you from all walks of life.

They might've hired.

One of the questions I actually do ask is what other solutions

have you tried in the past?

Cause I think the more we know about our clients, the better, because if they

have tried it, if they tried, there's.

A few things they could have tried.

They try, they probably tried to do it themselves to DIY their project.

That did not work.

That cost a lot of money that took forever, or they hired a bad designer

who just brought their vision and that completely overshadowed

whatever it is that they wanted.

So definitely get to know your client.

That's why client interviews is just so critical for me.

That's where everything starts.

You get to know your clients, the good, the bad, and the ugly, right?

You're getting to know what it is that they want, but you also, it's important

to understand how do they make decisions?

What are they afraid of?

What are they afraid of?

What keeps them up at night?

So after the client interviews, and then you think about moving into

brand story, how important is a brand story to the copy of a website

or into different marketing tools?

I think it's one of the things that can actually set you apart because

Interior designer, or let's say construction, whichever service

providers, your listeners are.

Everybody has somewhat similar process.

A copywriter is a copywriter, but what separates us is not only maybe

a little bit about our process, but also it's our brand story.

Like what brought us here today?

So nobody can replicate our story and stories connect people a lot more.

The people are more engaged when they hear a story.

So I always urge for people to actually.

Showcase where they've come from showcase, what experience they've had in the past.

It could be something so surprising, but it could, it could give something

to your audience to resonate with.

Maybe you were in fashion in the past.

I just happened to, I just happened to know a lot of designers and their

experience, their, their background is always fashion or not always,

but I meet a lot of people from the fashion industry, but your brand

story is definitely important.

You want to make sure it's also relatable.

Give your audience something that they can hook on something

that truly sets you apart and something they can resonate with.

And sometimes it's surprising, even if it's like your story

that like you're a single mom.

You don't have to go all personal in your brand story, but sometimes when we are a

little bit more vulnerable and authentic, it's a, it just resonates so much more

effectively with the right people.

So what's your brand story?

I've come from a marketing background, so I have 17 years in marketing and

I've always been a marketing manager, a marketing specialist, and I worked

with big corporate conglomerates.

And then I obviously talk about the transferable skills that I picked

up along the way, how to get the buy in from senior stakeholders.

So I, Tie it all back into my story because I didn't just,

I wasn't born a copywriter.

I was first in the marketing capacity working for global firms.

And then I decided to, to become a copywriter.

So tell us about how you help people evolve their brand story or how

someone listening could at least start the process of their brand story.

Cause it feels like it could be very overwhelming cause we've

done a lot of things in our lives.

We've got lots of different experiences, but which ones

are the right one to focus on?

That's such a great question.

So I always start with, I ask them a ton of questions.

I have this client questionnaire and a few of my clients hold it like a

therapy session because you know, I'm trying to uncover all the things like

you give me everything and I'll help you determine what fits, what's important.

Start with where.

What were you doing before you became a designer?

Let's say, cause not everybody becomes a designer right away or whichever

service provider is applicable.

I feel like a lot of people say that's not relevant.

That's not relevant.

I'm like, can you just tell me, and then we'll decide together if that's relevant.

And chances are, it's usually relevant because there's

always some type of lesson.

There's always like a pivotal moment that helped you realize something.

And then that's what made you.

Whatever you are today.

So I asked a series of questions.

I'm like a serial question asker.

So that's how I do.

That's how I help you weed out your story or create a story.

Because a lot of people that come to you, there's nothing really that

that's different or do what everybody else is, but it's not true at all.

Because you've got all of the, all of these different experiences.

And one of the most important things is first of all, to.

Lay it all out to, to make sure to talk about all the things, to,

to bring it all to the surface.

Like, here are the things that I've done.

Here are some of the transferable skills that I picked up along the way.

But then we want to find that little nuance.

What resonates with your clients?

What's relevant to your clients?

How do they benefit at the end of the day?

It's all about how does this benefit your clients?

If you were, let's say today, you're an interior designer, but

before you were a project manager.

Okay.

Yeah.

Completely different.

But Interior design is a project management to that's probably

one of the aside from creativity.

That's probably one of the biggest chunks of your job.

So showing your clients, explaining how it's relevant, not letting the audience

or your clients think for themselves.

Cause the last thing that you want to do is let them think because

thinking like leads to an action.

We want to eliminate that.

We want to tell them, so don't leave it up to them, but articulate it to them.

This is how it's relevant.

Now I can manage a project from A to Z.

You don't have to stress anything.

I'm going to hold your hand throughout the whole thing.

So, A, be aware of all of your stories.

B, know that it's all relevant.

And then C, you have to figure out the things that are relevant

to your clients and how they can benefit from all of your experiences.

And that's your brand story at the end of the day.

All the things, all the experiences that you've had, all the jobs that you've done.

Maybe it's life experiences.

Maybe it's not jobs.

Maybe it's something else.

And of course, paying attention to it's so funny because in a partnership,

we have two brand stories, right?

And where they merge and Jeanne and I like to joke when it comes

to us writing copy together, we bicker like six year olds, right?

Because we have very different voices and very different communication styles.

So writing copy has always been one of those things that's challenging

for us to have us, to have our own individual voice within our content,

but then to us For us also to have a storyline that really merges together,

explains why we are a partnership.

So it's been interesting over the years trying to pull all of that out of us.

So we definitely get what you're saying.

But that's actually very cool that you have two stories because I feel

like the goal here is to let your audience know that, let your prospective

customers know how they double benefit.

Because they get a little bit of you, a little bit of you.

And here's where you get like kind of best of both worlds.

You just have to find like a, an articulate way of telling your story.

But it's, I think it's pretty cool.

I've done a couple of projects where there were two founding members, and

then you just had to marry this story.

But like I said, it's all about what kind of value do you bring to your clients?

Like why you benefit from these two stories.

So it's really funny because I, like you go on a lot of podcasts as a guest,

and it's so interesting to me because.

The host are asking you questions in different ways.

And so sometimes I'll find myself saying something and I'm like, Oh my

gosh, that explains this so well that we've never been able to verbalize.

It just pops out.

So it's been interesting because like really narrowing it down, like

Jeanne's background is marketing and my background is business.

And so we really focus on marketing and outsourcing.

So those are the two places that we really marry what we do.

And finding a better way to verbalize that.

And so one day I was on a podcast and I said, we're not a marketing agency

and we're not an outsourcing agency.

We're marketing strategists and coaches who train our client virtual assistant

to take care of all the backend tasks.

And it was like, Oh my gosh, that flew out so simply.

And we've, it's something that we never, ever worded that way.

So if you're struggling, I think with your brand story and your messaging,

I think for most of us, that's normal.

Right.

And that's where hiring someone like you can be so beneficial.

And I love the fact that you just keep peeling back that onion

with all of those questions to create a very rich brand story.

That's not just about one point in a person's life, but generally about

multiple things that they've experienced to get them to this point where

they could truly help their client.

Yeah.

And the one thing that I want to add to that is.

For people that are struggling articulating their story, but maybe, or

maybe they have a situation like yours where there's two founding members.

What I always recommend, and I have a service for that, but what I always

recommend that you could do right now in your own business is to create.

So I have this thing where I create brand voice and messaging guides.

It's for people who start outsourcing, who start growing, and it's important

for them to articulate what is their business to somebody else.

It's not always easy.

Not everybody has an elevator pitch about your business, putting you

on the spot at a networking event.

So tell me what you do.

And then you have to succinctly explain what it is that you do, but you also have

to explain the audience that you serve and how you're different than everybody else.

What I always recommend is creating like a one pager of your core stories.

And I, I include those in my brand messaging guides because I think

it's so important because there's not just one way of explaining what your

company does or who both of you are, or the difference, your differentiator.

So have a couple of stories.

I usually have a couple of slides with core stories.

One could be how you both met.

One could be the true difference that you make in your client's life.

One could be about the service that nobody else has.

So there's, there could be so many different angles and you just have to,

you'll know where to use which story, but I think it's so important to have seven

core stories that you can, first of all, you'll be sharing them on social media.

Second, you can share them, first thing you said, you speak on podcasts.

You can share them on podcasts.

You could share them at networking events, speaking gigs, whichever.

But now you have this archive and it's ready.

And anytime you need a story is okay.

So which one should I tell today?

But at least you've got something you're not trying to like, Oh my God, how do I

like cram everything into this one story?

You don't need to.

You don't need to, you can just pick and choose the right one.

Would you include client stories in there as well?

Yeah, there's a spot for that in the messaging guides for sure.

And client stories is one of the most important ones just because they're like

customer testimonials and that truly shows what exactly you've done to help them.

Yeah.

How do you teach your clients to leverage testimonials?

Oh, my goodness.

This is social proof.

Customer testimonials probably speak the loudest in any of the messaging, whether

we're talking about social media marketing or we're talking about website messaging.

And one of the mistakes that I often see on client sites or on just service

provider sites is that they have either no testimonials whatsoever,

or they have a separate tab that says review or customer testimonials.

When you have this separate place or another page, you're making your

Audience work double duty to find that social proof customer testimonial speak

volumes because they actually show that real people hired me real people

trusted me with their money, with their business, with their life, whatever

that is that you help your clients with.

So.

I always recommend strategically sprinkling customer testimonials

across your website.

If you are on a homepage, make sure there's a customer testimonial.

If you are on an about page, make sure there's a customer testimonial.

If you're on a service page where there's an overview of how I work, let's say there

is a five step process to work with me.

You want to make sure that you've got the appropriate customer

testimonial that supports your claims.

Because yes, you can say that you're so awesome to work with, but wouldn't

that be so much more effective if.

Let's say Jenny said that, Oh my God, these ladies are amazing to work with.

That's yes.

It could come from you, but you want to amplify your claims.

And that's what customer testimonials do.

They amplify whatever it is that you're selling.

I absolutely love it.

Yeah.

You have different products that are for different audiences.

How would you approach that?

Yeah, that's a tricky one.

And I've actually worked with a few scenarios where I

can think of one right now.

I worked with a custom drapery company that served

homeowners, regular homeowners.

They had a retail store, but they also served interior designers because

interior designers work directly with these workrooms that serve draperies.

There's not like a simple answer, but there are two ways.

I'm sure there are other ways to do that, but there are a couple

of ways that I can think of one.

You can have a separate tab on your website that addresses specific audience.

So it's super clear to whichever audience lands on your website that

they're super clear on where they go.

Another version is to actually explain it, like on your homepage, let's

say you've got the main header, the main headline that speaks to what

it is that you do so beautifully.

And that sets you apart from everybody else that you can have that, but

right under, you can have two separate paragraphs, two separate sections.

If you are one audience, go here.

If you are This audience go here.

Sometimes the simplest way to go is the most clear way to go.

The more clear it is, like I said, don't let people think, make it stupid,

simple, they get on your website.

They see, okay, two audience.

I'm clearly a coach, or I'm clearly a service provider.

And make it easy for them to understand where to go, but trying to marry the

messaging into one, unless there's a common pain point, everything

starts with a common pain point.

If there's a common pain point, that's what you lead with.

If there's a common aspiration, like a transformation that both audiences

are looking for, lead with that.

But if we're talking about a separate set of pain points, a separate set of

aspirations that people want, then make it simple for them to offer two routes to go.

If you're this, go here.

If you're this, go here.

But, but like I said, if there's something in common, that's what you lead with.

Yeah.

It's interesting because we generally work with real estate agents and coaches.

We, we do have other industries that come to us, but that's our focus.

But when you said like their pain points and their aspirations is most of it

is lead generation and building their.

Individual brand.

So I feel like they do have the same goals and aspirations.

And I do think they do have the same pain points around building confidence

on camera or figuring out like their content topic, their understanding SEO,

or simply not having enough hours in the day to do it, which is why they

need a trained virtual assistant.

So it's interesting.

They definitely have similar pain points and they definitely have.

Similar goals, but that is something we always struggle with because it

is two very different industries.

And our real estate agents are generally, they're usually going to

have a talking head style YouTube channel where they may occasionally

do interviews with an attorney to talk about 1031 exchanges or something.

But their path is generally local SEO and then building that brand awareness and

becoming the authority in this space where with coaches, they can have that exact

same type of channel, or they can start a podcast where they can choose to actually

just go on other people's podcasts.

So they have three different paths that they could really go down

depending on what they wanted to do.

So it is, it is always a struggle for us to figure out how to get

all that headed in one direction and then where to divide them.

Where do we say, okay, if you're here, they go here.

So.

I love that.

Yeah.

And what I also heard you say is you were listing all the ways that you work

with different audiences like with your coaches and with your real estate agents.

You do a lot.

So you offer a lot of different things.

One of the biggest mistakes that I also see above the fold, like

when we're talking about above the fold, just the landing page that

people land on is cramming too much information on that first page.

That's one of the biggest things.

Cause we all do a lot.

Like, obviously some of us have more than Three service offers.

Some of us have worked with clients in different capacities.

Like we work with group coaching and you can work one on one and you can work.

You just get different support, not to cram too much.

Not because that overwhelms you lead with one pain point or with

one transformation, and that's it.

Because the goal of you're above the fold is really to move them.

To the next step, not to communicate everything under the sun about what you

do and who you serve and how you serve, but to simply move them to the next step.

And that's why people because when I talk to people is like, but I also do

this and it's important to mention this.

Yes, it is.

Yes, it is, but not here.

Like in a different place on a dedicated page where you lead them.

That's why we create this hierarchy on your homepage.

And that's why user experience is so important because you want to, you want

to take your audience on a journey, but don't just throw everything at them.

No, take them on a journey.

Hey, first learn about this first.

All you have to know is this.

Then move to the next point, they move to the next point, and then we move them to

our ideal call to action at the end, but don't put everything all at the same time.

I think you're a genius.

I did not make this up.

It's simply the experience of all the things that all

the clients I've worked with.

So please tell our audience how they can reach out to you

if they would like your help.

Of course, you can find me on contentvertical.

com.

That's my website, or you can follow me on Instagram.

I show up every single day sharing all kinds of insights about marketing,

about copywriting, all the things.

And that's Masha.

Copywriter.

And I also have a podcast, Marketing for Designers.

Podcast.

I love that.

Thank you so much for being here today.

You are a wealth of information and you've shared so much amazing tips and

helpful things that I know our audience are going to love and we will have your

contact information in the show notes.

So thank you so much again.

Oh, I appreciate it.

Thank you so much for having me.

This was wonderful.

Thanks for listening to the six figure business mastery podcast.

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marketing on all online platforms, or maybe even start your own video

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