This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self worth

is made up of more than your job title.

Each week, I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform standup comedy, write, volunteer, and of course podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go!.

Hey everyone.

So this week, my guest is someone that I actually met over in London,

but we've only met virtually.

We both live in London though.

So it's Paul de Gregorio and he's a digital mobilization strategist

and the founder of Rally.

So I kind of gave it away, Paul, which I shouldn't have done, but

where am I talking to you from?

So, yeah, I'm London, specifically I expect

north London and really specifically the bedroom that I converted into

a study before pandemic happened.

So yeah, I'm

in London.

Nice.

So did you actually, you got that ready before the pandemic?

Yeah, I dunno.

I had this kind of foreboding, like maybe I just could, I could

sense something was gonna happen.

I like in just before Christmas in 2019, I decided rather than rent

a space, I was gonna turn my back bedroom into the study and I bought

a big desk and put in shelves.

And my goodness me is my happy that I did that.

Yeah.

That's kind of like, there's those, those people who plan.

What are they called?

Where they like pack like a warehouse full of like supplies and stuff, you know?

but you just did that with like office stuff furniture, right?

Yeah.

I completely like, I mean, I'm not gonna say that I have any sense of prediction

on catastrophic global events, but like, I mean, I'm just super glad that I did it.

Yeah, no, that's great.

Yeah.

You would've been waiting for a desk for like five months, otherwise.

yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

well, so basically, I introduced you as a digital mobilization strategist,

so I am a marketing person and I kind of know that's even vague to say, but

can you tell me specifically what that area is, digital mobilization strategy?

Yeah, definitely.

I suppose a definition is a good place to start.

When I'm talking to potential clients or partners, I, I kind of give the

definition of mobilization as the action of organizing or encouraging groups of

people to take like collective action in pursuit of specific objectives.

And I suppose when I transfer that into the work that I do, like putting it really

simply that's I help charities, campaign groups, some political parties figure

out how they can engage the public at scale and a scale that drives the change

that they wanna, they exist to deliver.

But then like super specifically, that means for the work I do kind of operating

at the intersection of everything public facing from an organization.

So, the brand team, the communications team, the advocacy team, the fundraising

teams to help them kind of come up with strategies or approaches that give people

the opportunity to do things using their time or their money or their voice, as

opposed to like the fundraising team, just wanting money or the comms team

just looking to drive advocacy actions.

It's trying to bring all those things together and recognize that people maybe

don't just fit into the neat boxes that organizations create in their departments.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

And when you look at like your education or early career, did you start out

just doing some general form of marketing or did you just evolve into?

I was kind of a late starter.

I I mean, I'm, I'm 50 years old.

I moved to London when I was 26.

And prior to that, I was doing a whole bunch of like factory jobs.

I worked in a pub.

I worked in a record shop.

I used to put on club nights and do musicy type things.

But my first job was at an agency that did lots of political fundraising.

And I think it was that first job that really made me realize

it was for the labor party.

And it made me realize that when you're talking to people,

you can't just talk to them.

Like they're just a donor or.

A campaigner.

Like there're probably lots of the things that we think they are.

Yeah.

And that's, I feel lucky that I had that experience at the beginning of my career.

So I'm absolutely rinsing it now.

Yeah.

yeah.

Well, and speaking of working for labor at first you've done a lot of work with

like a really wide variety of nonprofit and social activist organizations.

And just, I'll just name a few that I'm gonna read out.

But basically ACLU, Amnesty International, Cancer Research UK, Greenpeace,, the

Labour Party you mentioned, Refuge, Stonewall and that's just to name a few.

And actually I did a show last year and donated to Refuge just after

meeting you and, and learning about them, so you got me mobilized there.

But I mean, for me, like, as someone who, on this podcast,

I talk a lot about service.

I think that's one of the most important things people can do no matter what they

do otherwise, it's really admirable.

And so thanks for all that work, but also like, do you remember why you got involved

or how you got involved with charity or political action organizations in the

first place other than your first job?

Yeah.

Yeah,

that's a great question.

I and so many, so many things spring to mind.

I like, I don't think I've ever felt of it as a career and I don't

wanna sound all grandiose about it, but like, I've just always known I

wanted to do this type of work without really understanding what type of

work was available when I was younger.

I think there's definitely a sense of, and I'm sure lots of people have got

this in their own personal stories, with that kind of sense of early

memories of like injustice or things that weren't quite right or quite fair.

And, you know, I'm the son of an immigrant.

My father came to this country when he was really young from Southern Italy.

So I've always had that kind of sense of like, they came from quite

a poverty stricken background.

They came here for new, for kind of a new beginning, but the, maybe they weren't

necessarily accepted in a way that I just taught as a kid they should be.

You know, my grandfather didn't really speak English very well.

And we were different when it came to family traditions and things like that.

So it kind of marked out as different and not always in a positive way.

But also like, I'm like I'm 50 years old and I, I, for the first God knows how

long of my life we were, this country was being ruled by Margaret Thatcher

and the Conservative government, which was quite a tricky time.

And they're like, I can remember TV images of the miner's

strike and like unemployment and poverty and all of these things.

It just didn't feel right.

Mm-hmm you know what I mean?

It's like, it's just, there's a sense that stuff was being done to

the population, which they really couldn't do very much about.

And then I just, I have really inspiring images of like miner strike

or people standing up for themselves, whether it would be those strikes

or, you know, when I was a kid, the whole kind of South African apartheid

regime was on the telly every night.

And it's just quite horrific to see that people were being persecuted for no...

yeah.

...clear reason.

It's just so yeah, all of those time things come together and I like, I

think actually with I apart, I remember I've got a really vivid memory of

going to see the film "Cry, Freedom", the kind of probably late eighties

was the, the story of Steven B.

Cohen South Africa.

And this really vivid memory of going to the field with my mates and then

coming out there being these really cool people outside the cinema handing out

leaflets and like being activisty and like trying to encourage people after

watching the film to do something else.

Yeah.

I'm just like, I think that was probably the first time.

That's probably, I dunno how old I was; 15 16, 17 years old, just realized

that there are people who were actually doing something about it, not just

worrying about it, which I was probably spending a lot of time just worrying

about things as teenage boys do.

Well, and you were worrying about different things and it sounds

like a lot of teenage boys do, but I think that I mean, that resonates with

me and makes sense to me, just because I'm even thinking, when you were talking

about that, I thought there's a whole generation of kids now who are growing

up, at least I'm from the States, and so seeing people stand up for their

rights over and over, and it happens here too, but I'm more intimately

familiar with what's going on over there.

And, and just those images probably of like Black Lives Matter now, and

even women, which is insane, having to stand up for rights again but I can

imagine that's probably there's some kid or kids that are just kind of...

definitely...

...doing the same now, right?

When I think about this, I, I think that culture and media and art and all of those

things have such a huge part to play.

Like my earliest memories of all this are what was seeing on the six o'clock

news and those really inspiring images.

I'm just, as we're talking, I can just remember there was just like

when I was a kid, there were riots in the UK, in Liverpool, in Brixton

and in Bristol close to where I was living in the Southwest of England.

And I just remember thinking, you know, these are people.

I mean, maybe I just, wasn't thinking that like, this is terrible this is rioting.

It was just really compelling for me to see people stand

up for themselves, which I.

You know, on your podcast, I'm not gonna advocate be an advocate of rioting,

but like it was direct action which was resulting in people taking notice

of stuff, which I just I'm always been fascinated by always interested in.

Yeah.

Well, did you just thinking about your upbringing as far as your parents and

I, my father, I didn't know him for a huge amount of time, but I became

more aware later on in my life.

Like, you know, he was the first generation in the US and there's something

about looking at yourself and being really grateful for where you are because someone

else did something hard to get there.

Yeah.

You know, and did you is there any influence of your parents

and other than you having the knowledge of what they went through, maybe that

influenced on you like to take action or was it really just something you did?

My Italian grandmother who I always got the sense of the driving force behind them

leaving Southern Italy and coming to the UK after the war because you know, I've

been back since I can see where they used to live, how they used to live and all

those things, I can really get a sense that it was, it was a really big thing

for them to make that move, you know?

And in like post-Brexit, Britain, that's kind of frowned upon that people move

borders to like make a better life for themselves and, you know, they did it.

I mean, I, I found my grandfather's immigration papers recently and

it's, it's like entitled that Alien Act of 1920 something, or it's

just weird language that was used.

But like, I always got the sense she was the real driving force.

She was very opinionated on lots of things.

She didn't like Margaret Thatcher very much.

All the Italian cuss words that I learned was listening to her start ranting,

whenever Maggie was on the telly.

There was just, just a different perspective, I think, which I, and

I really, I do look, look back to her quite a lot and just think if

the social justice warrior in our family was probably was probably her.

Huh?

That's funny.

And then your experiences of cursing were just all political cursing, basically.

Political cursing in a foreign language

that I didn't truly understand.

brilliant.

Always followed up by a big cheesy smile from her afterwards when she'd

realized she'd said a really bad word

. that was like her signal.

Yes.

You heard correctly.

Yes.

So I mean, I've gotten a feel for why you've gone into the space you have.

Still like with your, the skills that you've built up and just with being

able to mobilize people and do like, kind of, I would say like some guerilla

marketing kind of efforts and some other ones, and the fact that a lot of

brands and stuff went this just in, in brands that aren't related to activism

or fundraising or whatever, how did you decide then you were gonna take

that and just focus your career on it versus go make the money somewhere else.

And then come back over here and do stuff as a volunteer?

I fluked it, to be honest.

That agency I was talking about earlier on that I ended up working London.

So I was in, I was back.

I was in the west country.

There was a recession.

There were, there were lots and lots of crap jobs going on.

I was that kind of character.

I never really wanted to move to London and do that thing of like kind of the

streets of London are paid with gold.

I never really believed in any of that, but just, I think through necessity

and a bit of a lack of direction.

I thought, well, I'll get, I'll give London a go.

And I was lucky enough that my mate worked at this agency and their

biggest client was the Labour Party.

So in September 96, I rocked up in London and got a job at this agency in the post

room, like basically stuffing envelopes and sending it to people who'd said

they'd make donations to the Labour Party or other charities that we worked with.

And I just, the energy around that time around Labour, because they were just

about to win this general election in 97.

And, and like, I've got a very vivid memory of the election night

party in that in that agency, everyone was so excited and it went

on all night and it was just wild.

So I think I just kind of managed to fluke that.

So I came to London to find work.

My mate set me up with this job where a place he was working at

doing this fundraising thing.

And I just thought, oh my God, you can actually be a really like activist for

the Labour movement or the Labour Party or these other cultures that I was really

interested in and make money from it.

And given that my background prior to that was doing shitty jobs in pubs and all

that sort of stuff, it was actually like, oh my God, there is a career, there's

like a career path, which I don't think.

Yeah, I have no idea.

When I was at school talking to careers, people that there was this

path you could take, which was about helping charities and progressive

groups do their, do their thing.

And then I just wanted it.

So I just worked hard.

So I started in the, the kind of mail room and I ended up quite a few years later,

but I ended up being the Client Services Director for that organization, just

working through all the different jobs in the structure until I was like responsible

for all of the client relationships and all of the campaigns and all of

the activity across a kind of client base of probably 20 to 30 charities.

I just, I've never thought about doing anything else.

You know what I mean?

I like money.

We all like money, but I don't feel like I need piles of

money that I won't ever use.

So I've just stuck with this.

I get really frustrated about this kind of, and it's my bad, it's like

my problem, like, but I don't wanna sell chips or Doritos or cigarettes

to children or any of that.

It's just like, it doesn't feel like there's any point to me.

I recognize it's because of my background and where I come from.

I just...

someone's gotta do it I suppose, but I don't wanna do it.

So I've just made my peace with what I got.

I got enough for cat food.

Keep the cat happy.

Still buying records and...

Yeah.

go on a holiday every now and again.

So I'm, I'm like super happy.

And to be honest, if I ended up in an interview at one of those jobs, I think

they would smell my rabid anti-capitalism across the interview table and not

really think I was the right person to help sell Doritos or whatever.

Yeah.

That's yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, and it is tricky.

I mean, just, I've been a consultant for a little while now and working

with different clients and some projects I just have been like,

oh, I hope I don't get that.

Or, yeah, I hope I don't get that or something because you just don't

wanna be involved in certain things.

Yeah.

And even working for a corporation.

One of 'em I worked for our biggest like revenue came from this from Rush Limbaugh,

the conservative radio talk show host.

That's the nicest thing I can say about him too.

I'm surprised I didn't curse, but and it felt gross, you know, so it's kind of

nice to be able to work with organizations that reflect at least something that you

care about or aren't bothered by anyway.

Yeah, absolutely.

I like, and I, I, I'm sometimes quite reticent to talk about it cause I

understand that in society, we all need to make a living and we all, you know, not

everyone can follow this path of being lucky enough to be able to work in a

kind of sector, which is also like maybe defines part of their personal outside

of work self, you know what I mean?

So I, I totally recognize that, I come from that position and I don't see things

in the way that everyone necessarily sees it, but I just feel really super lucky

and blessed to be able to, to do that.

Yeah, no, it's cool.

And, and for the people who can't do that, and even I don't do that, but like,

then you can do other things and I think.

Yeah.

Part of it is just, people can see, like maybe someone does

a similar role to mine in marketing or something, but oh, there's ways

you can help organizations outside.

And we've talked about that personally, right?

Cuz I've gone to you more and I'm mentor capacity and that's how we

met was because I was trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing, you know?

But so then you started Rally.

So can you explain what Rally is.

Yeah, I I worked at a whole bunch of agencies,

like, as I've alluded to.

And I mean, I got to the place about maybe, probably about four years ago,

but I was, I dunno, just, I really wanted to grow my personal impact,

sounding like a, an egotistical maniac.

And I could see that when the, in the sectors that I work, they're kind of

in any sector, there's like problems and challenges, and there's an

establishment way of doing things.

There's kind of the, kind of the guru type people in a sector.

There's just a whole bunch of just blur in any sector.

And I was like, I'll just get a bit tired of it.

A bit bored of it and I really passionately believe in this mobilization

approach, which is, we bring all the things that someone can do together into

a public facing kind of communications approach and give people the choice on how

they participate in the work that we do.

And I was just struggling to get traction with those ideas, like.

At the age I was working out.

There's like the people who run that agency were amazing.

I think they really appreciated the thinking I was doing around this stuff,

but I don't think it quite fit into how that organization needed to work.

And I suppose I, again, with privilege, cuz I, I could, I, I just thought rather

than be that miserable person that just sits in a place like being a bit of a

mood Hoover and not like being positive and progressive about stuff that I should

just leave and put my own money where my own mouth was and try and do something.

So I set up Rally, which is, which is at the core it's me.

But what I love about Rally, how I've always wanted to do with Rally is,

is to build a really kind of shit hot network of experts in loads of

different fields around, around Rally.

So we have this kind of, this thing called the Rally Network which is

people I love working with or want to work with, like in this Slack group.

And we all like share briefs and ideas and potential work

opportunities with each other.

We form collaborations and like, I can bring people in on Rally projects,

which means I don't have to build this thing with loads of people

and structure and different teams.

It means when faced with a, like a client challenge or problem, I can go and find

the people who are best placed to fix that problem with them, rather than having

to kind of cram that problem into this structure of this thing that I've set up.

And that's why I quite like that kind of flexibility.

And so what we, we fundamentally do, mainly our core thing is, organizations

that wanna adopt a mobilization approach or believe in it, or wanna know more

about it, we help them build that within their organizations both from a, from

a strategic perspective, like how do you change and how do you think to a

kind of delivery perspective, how you actually define creative approaches

and buy ads and sign people up.

And what do you ask 'em to do that sort of stuff?

Well, and it sounds like then one thing that's important for you

is what I've always found to be like a difficult word, but is networking.

And just, but in a way that I don't know, I think I was talking to some,

some students recently that I do like a mentor thing with, and just, they were

saying they have trouble networking and, and it feels weird to them and stuff.

And I've, I've always felt the same way.

Like I've never liked networking.

Cause I always feel like it's just kind of these surface level

conversations with random people just to try to make connections.

But it sounds like you've developed a way of networking.

That's different and meaningful.

And so can you talk a little bit about how, yeah maybe you've evolved

how you build personal relationships in that way or professional ones?

I, sometimes I struggle talking about myself

in the kind of positive way.

I think a lot of people do that, but I've been asked this a few times before

cause there is a perception, I think in my net, in my network, in the community

that I sit that I am good at that.

And it's like, I am just so inquisitive.

Like if I see a thing that it looks amazing, I've just got, I

don't have the kind of fear of being rejected by that person.

If I, if I email them or send them a Twitter message or whatever.

Like if I see something cool and I think it's cool, I'm I'm always doing, it's

like just firing off an email saying, oh my God, I saw you did this thing.

I'd love to know more about it.

If like, can we talk about it?

Or even just I saw you do this thing.

I've got nothing to add.

It's just brilliant.

Can we connect in LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever, or these places?

Cause I genuinely believe that if I was just like locked into

the sector, I'm in like the UK.

I mean, you could argue that the sector I started in was the UK charity sector

like fundraising, but I really work hard to stretch my like points of inspiration

way beyond that narrow band sector.

So I get really excited by technologists doing amazing things with technology.

I get excited by like campaigners on the ground, grassroots people

who develop new techniques.

And I just talk to them.

Just be respectful, like if, if they can share and I've, I've honestly so blessed

to have met some incredible people, like people that when I was like, I

don't know, living in Somerset all those years ago, I just never dreamed that

I would end up having conversations with heavyweight kind of UK politicians

about things to do with that campaigns or really inspiring activists and

campaigners doing amazing work.

Just never thought that would happen.

So I just feel blessed that I I don't have any shame when it

comes to reaching out to people.

Well, yeah, and I think too, like, at least my experience

has been that you also, if someone reaches out to you you respond and...

a hundred percent.

Yeah.

And I think that's super important and

Without any doubt.

Like people ask me for five minutes, sometimes I wish I could find

a way to say no, to be honest.

Cause like it's very time consuming, but I don't think I've ever said no to

somebody who may be seen me speak at a thing or read something that I've written

and do to me what I know I do to others.

Like it would be a massive dick move to just not engage.

So I always do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've.

For me, I've tried to be better about that.

Like sometimes I'll get overwhelmed.

I'll have like 10 emails and not, I don't have a bunch of people trying

to meet with me, but actually I get a lot of just weird solicitations for

random people to be on the podcast or something, but I just go, okay, I'll

answer them in a couple days when I have time and then I can actually answer.

And I think there's a weird pressure people put on themselves to like

answer everything immediately.

But I think you can answer in a couple days and fine.

Yeah, totally.

So right now what causes and there's a lot going on

there's been a lot, there's been a lot going on for people who care.

But what causes are you most passionate about right now?

God, there is so many in there.

I mean, I suppose with Rally I'm in this fortunate position, cause I run

it from a, in a professional level, I can, I can mix my personal passions and

my professional my professional life.

So I get to choose who we work with and can like go and find the people

to work with, who like match up with what I I'm really interested in.

I find personally just inequality, injustice, other kind of, I

just, I, it never fails to kind of move me to some form of rage.

Just the like the, the, the, the randomness of persecuting, a certain type

of person just for what they believe in or who they are and that type of thing.

So I I'm, I'm spending a lot of time with refugee and migrant

rights space in the LGBTQ+ space.

And fortunate to work with like Refuge.

Domestic abuse, I just think is a horrific part of our society.

And just, it's a dream client to be able to work with Refuge on their on their

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:24

A, fund the work that they do, and B, bring people

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:31

close to like take the actions that are needed to eradicate that from society.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:35

It's just like, I feel like really lucky, but also working with like Stonewall

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:39

and Mermaids and the LGBTQ+ space.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:42

And organizations like Praxis, a refugee and migrant rights charity and Joint

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:48

Council for Welfare and Immigrants.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:49

Another amazing charity that does incredible work in that space and

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:52

being, these are the like real, like areas that I am spending time.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:55

And then I think personally where I'm not working I just find food

campaigns and their strategies to 00:24:58

poverty one of the most bizarre things to exist in our society.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:25:02

So I think that personal money and energy into that sort of

campaigns and their strategies to 00:25:05

those sorts of end causes.

campaigns and their strategies to 00:25:07

Yeah, I had to guest recently, Philip Simon, he's a UK comedian

campaigns and their strategies to 00:25:11

and he did just online Zoom shows for kids during the lockdown.

Amazing.

time and, and did a, a children's book.

And so he donates all the profits to Fare Share.

Oh cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is cool.

And I hadn't heard of them, but I just, we talked a lot about it.

I mean, he's someone who, during lockdown, like his career was gone for

a minute, you know, cuz or for 18 months or whatever, but then he chose still to

take what he was earning and give it.

And I thought that was pretty awesome.

Amazing.

Yeah.

So one thing I've noticed too is you're very active on social media and on

LinkedIn, which I love personally.

For me, like, I, I watch it.

I mean, I kind of do stuff with my comedy that I get away with, but I

watch it otherwise just because I get worried I guess what people think.

But how, how do you manage that?

I don't think you post anything that wild, but you know, some people might

come after you or me if I did it.

So how do you kind of deal with that?

I'm just curious.

I don't really know.

It's it's I've always really enjoyed those platforms, like linked to

what we were talking about earlier in terms of that networking.

I think they're incredible spaces and there's a lot of negativity around social

media and I totally get it but I've, I've also just seen these huge positive

impacts of just being able to chat with people that I couldn't just meet down

the pub on the street so I can talk to people in the States and blah, blah, blah.

I dunno, I've always just watched people carefully curate

their brand in these spaces.

And I just, I don't know.

I think I's just really dull.

And whilst I I'm, you know, honestly, there's a certain element of curation

that I do because I, I don't want to bring my whole self into those spaces.

Like there's, we've all got things that, you know, we don't, we don't

wanna talk about, we don't wanna kind of highlight in terms of things

that are going on in our lives.

But wherever possible, I just like everything about Twitter.

I just like, I break Twitter down by these different, like plots in my head

of like, I'm really into graffiti so there's my graffiti Twitter.

I'm really into music.

So there's like this music bit of Twitter.

There's this work Twitter thing of campaigning, fundraising,

mobilization, all that sort of stuff.

I like cats.

There's like this, this, this, like, so I can't just in Twitter or

Instagram or Facebook, just be this one dimensional digital mobilization nerd.

Cause that's not real.

Like I am this person who does all these other things.

So I just try and mix it up and talk about all these bits and bobs, but then

if I feel really compelled or I've got a point to make on something, I

just think that's also part of me.

And so I, I like to try and encourage people to, to do something like yeah.

So if I feel really passionate about it, I'll speak up about it.

But only really where I think I have impact.

I've been told by a couple people actually, especially, I

worked for, for an organization.

It's like, oh my goodness, what do your bosses think about your Twitter?

Because cause sometimes you can be a bit leary and I was, and I honestly

never thought about it before.

I was just like, yeah, I'm gonna have to confess to A never having thought

about it before and B not giving too much of a shit either because like

that's my space on the internet.

And just as I can get a job through my opinions, I suppose I've always

been at peace while with losing a job because of my opinions cuz that

cut would kind of say something about the environment that I was in and

thankfully I've never lost a job based on my opinions, they'd come close once.

That's yeah, I mean, and I won't, I won't make you say what that

is, but yeah, that just the, I, this is when I wish people could see a podcast

sometimes and they could, if I didn't, if I took time to edit video, but the

look on your face was really great there.

The almost...

I like it.

Yeah.

So one thing you kind of just, you mentioned was just, you know, if

you post about things that maybe you can have an impact on and maybe

other people will take action.

And so for me, service is one of my core values.

And one reason I do this podcast and I do this podcast kind of as a

way to serve others, to encourage them to do whatever it is they wanna

do personally or professionally.

And then also in comedy, that's even kind of a service in a way with making

people laugh when I do a good job.

But and then I do a lot of charity work and I know how I've had to like

work hard to fit all that in for me.

You are working professionally in nonprofit space, but also I

think in you're probably outside of there, you do do a lot.

Yeah.

And so, first of all, cause someone might hear you

and go, and this is what people do, "oh, I could never do what he does.

He's doing so much whatever."

And they just kind of use that as an excuse to do nothing.

And what do you think about like, do you think everybody could have

an impact if they want and what are ways you think people could?

I, I absolutely think that we can all have an impact, I think

without wanting to sound like a kind of conspiracy theorist, I think we're

kind of encouraged not to take action, like by government and politicians and

the establishment in whatever sector we work in and all those different type of

things because, you know, there are a lot of us when it comes to like people.

I'm utterly convinced that as, as, as, as individuals and as communities,

we sometimes don't recognize what power we've actually got and you don't

have to be taking to the streets and manning the barricades and all that

sort of stuff to have an impact.

Small things, if enough people do small things, add up.

That's the fundamentals of organizing is like, how do you, how do you, how do

you identify where the power sits in in whatever issue you are looking to change?

Who influences those people who've got power?

And then you start to establish the, the steps that you can take on an individual

or collective basis to, to affect it, to kind of drive change with those people.

So.

I mean, there's been so much going on in this country recently, but I really

have been taking it upon myself to encourage people who've got a view about

the political system, specifically, how Boris Johnson's been behaving about

parties and all this other stuff is to take the time and write your elected

representative because they take notice.

And one person writing to an MP doesn't achieve anything.

But if lots of people start writing to those MPs and it's not one of those

cut and paste hit go letter to MP type campaigns, which are useful at times,

but it's not one of those, but it's a individually crafted message from citizen

one to elected representative two,

they notice and they get spooked by it, and then they start to respond to it.

And I just think we can do those things.

We all choose who we buy from.

We all choose the kind of media outlets that we consume.

And like, we can make choices about who we buy from where we

watched, he, what newspapers we buy and all that sort of stuff.

So I'm just like 100% convinced that as citizens, we have this power

that we don't sometimes realize,.

Which is why I think I put, I mean, Rally, I, we put a lot of effort into

trying to prove to people that they've got power and then equip them or work

with them alongside them to give them confidence, skills, resources, to use

their power in a, the most effective way.

And that doesn't sound like arrogant.

I don't wanna be like teaching people, but I love to kind of show

people the impact of the, the, the actions that they could take.

And the power that they've got, which is, you know, quite a wordy response,

but I, I really passionately believe that's the thing that drives us, so

a small action, a massive action that it's all actions better than sitting

on your ass and just moaning about

it.

Yeah.

That could be the episode title, too.

Better than sitting on your ass, just moaning about it.

We might have one.

Every time I say that though, I find a different one, but I

might stick with it this time.

No, I, I, a hundred percent agree and I think definitely making conscious

efforts not to use certain, at least when possible, not to use certain

vendors, for example, and to procure things from different places is, is

just a really an action anyone can do.

So I personally think that the work you're doing, some of it can be

kind of emotionally charged and, and difficult, especially when I don't know.

I mean, just a lot of people talk about just fatigue they've had with news

just as regular people who just watch it and, or, or with organizations.

Do you experience like anything, any emotion around it and then how do you

kind of deal with that so it's not carrying over into home all the time.

Definitely can get that kind of emotional response to things.

I think sometimes I worry that because this is the, where I work, I see a lot of

things and read a lot of stories and see, just consume a lot of kind of stories of

the problem or the impact of the problem or the outputs of the, of the problem.

And, you know, absolutely from time to time, something really,

really cuts through the whatever shield you put up and gets you.

But I think that's good.

Like it needs to be more than just a job.

If you're not moved to tears or anger or sadness or frustration at times,

then, I don't think you could be kind of bringing the energy to it.

But I'm also, and increasingly, I'd say in the last five or six

years, very, very aware that it's not just me doing this work.

There are a lot of people doing this work.

So taking a break from it is not a bad thing and recharging and

re-energizing is a good thing to do.

And I don't think I would be, I don't think in my early thirties,

I quite read that manual.

And but definitely now.

And I'm about to say things which make me sound like some kind of lifestyle guru.

Believe me, I'm not like, I, I try to get outta London.

I try to go for walks.

I try to have those moments where I'm drawing or reading or listening to

music and doing all of those things.

But invariably, you know, probably quite often I'm probably working

at a weekend when I shouldn't be working and all that sort of stuff.

But I think recognizing it, and then taking active steps to kind of

acknowledge it and confront it is really like really super important.

Cause I think burnout, I mean, I'm really aware that, I mean,

I'm sat in these Zoom environments five, six days a week, talking to

people who will through a pandemic,

like we've all lived through a pandemic, all the other shit that's going on.

It's just like a lot of tired people out there, do you know what I mean?

We all need to delete the apps of our phone and go for a long walk.

Yeah.

Oh, a hundred percent.

And I think coming out of the pandemic, I, I don't know.

I didn't feel that prepared for it in the end.

Yeah.

And I still feel like I'm kind of, you know, some days

go, well, I'd rather just stay in here but I have no reason cause I

wanted to go outside for so long.

Yeah.

I know exactly what you mean.

I dunno about you, but there's like in this post pandemic world, I'm...

in the pandemic, it was Zoom, it was sitting at the desk

and working, it was working.

I now have to plan like in real life meetings with a lot more notice than I've

ever had to before cause I can look at my diary and see, well, I've got all those

Zoom calls splatted through the week.

There's no time to actually get into town and get out again to, to do the to

do the work, which it's just strange.

I mean, Londoners don't need an excuse to bin off social engagements very

often anyway, but my goodness, me, the, this whole post pandemic kind of

experience has certainly added to it.

Yeah, exactly.

Someone just says, say, oh, I sneezed today.

I won't be there.

And you're like, okay.

Yeah, don't come.

There it is.

You know, Do you have any, so you mentioned music which, and,

and I think, I think it was during this we talked about like buy records and

stuff, but what do you have outside of work that kind of charges you and, and

that you love that you wanna talk about?

Of course.

Yeah, I like drawing.

It sounds quite, I've never really spoken about this before, actually,

so excuse my hesitation, but it's like, I, I love making marks on paper.

So I've, I've just got like loads of notebooks.

I've got loads of pens, I've got scissors and magazines and print sticks.

And I just like, just making just really getting into something and just

like drawing or writing or scribbling or doodling or cutting and pasting.

I just feel it just take, I'm just concentrating on that and nothing

else and absolutely loved doing it.

Like when I left the last job I had which was the an agency, this kind of

brilliant agency that I'd been at for about five or six years, I left the,

that place with nowhere to go next.

I just wanted to figure out what I wanted to do.

And I had a kind of, bit of a crisis of confidence when I'd left.

It was just like, oh my God, like I've left.

I actually did it.

Like now what?

I signed up for a week's course at Central St.

Martins in King's Cross.

And the course was called Experimental Printmaking.

It was just a random selection.

I just like, I'll do that course for a week.

And this incredible tutor in this week, and there are about 10 or 15 other people

doing the course and this brilliantly brilliant studio at the art college there.

And he just taught us all these different techniques and taught, I think me that not

to, not to worry about making that mark on the piece of paper, but just to do it.

And if you don't like it, chuck it.

And I just, honestly, it was the best thing I've ever done in my life.

I just tried to keep that moving, which is I enjoyed doing that week

cause I wasn't thinking about work.

I learned some stuff and just carry on in that kind of vein.

Oh, that's amazing.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

That's really great.

And Paul, I've learned a lot and I'm sure listeners will have learned a lot

from this, but do you have any sort of advice or mantra that you just wanna

share that, that you like to follow?

I know it's weird to give people advice on a non-specific subject.

Yeah.

Sometimes when I write, I rant, I rant write.

And I wrote this kind of list of things that One one should do like, like,

and it was quite a fun thing to do.

And I stuck it up on Medium and it got loads of well, for me, loads of

like likes and interactions on it.

And it was like, things like, it was a real rant, but it was like, it recognized

that you were a work in progress.

None of us are complete.

We're all learning.

None of us know everything.

Be open to new ideas.

Be happy to change your opinion, which I think lots of people struggle with.

I know that when I learned that it was okay to change my opinion,

I felt better about stuff.

Yeah.

Give credit to others.

It's a big thing.

I think so many people just like sit and bask in the glory of the work of

a team, but like seriously, if you wanna share power, share the credit.

That's the only way that I think we all move on.

Don't be a dick.

Like , it's like, we all know when we're being awkward, just don't do it.

And I think really big one for me, actually, that I was talking to someone

about this very, very recently and it really resonated was go where energy is.

Don't waste, don't waste your time.

Don't waste a second of your time in a situation or, or with people

maybe who are a bit of a mood suck.

It's like, just not helpful.

Remove yourself from those mood sucky situations as quick as you can.

I mean, and you can't get out of all of them, like life is life, but

we all know we can remove ourselves from some of these situations a

bit quicker than we probably do.

So like yeah focus on progressive stuff, not looking back and being miserable.

Nice.

Those are, those are great.

So, now I just have the Fun Five.

It's the standard set of questions I ask everybody.

It's supposed to be fun.

We'll see how fun it is.

That's fun for me.

What's the oldest t-shirt you have and still wear?

I have the sickest t-shirt from uh, that is

football club in some Italy, Naples.

Napoli, the kind of football club.

I've had this t-shirt for my goodness, me,.

It is so baggy.

It is so washed out and I've only very recently retired it.

Like I've stopped wearing it recently, but there's no way

I'm throwing that t-shirt away.

It's just.

When I talk about my immigrant identity and all that sort of thing,

it's like wearing this Napoli badge proud, even though I've never,

ever been into the stadium, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna change that.

But yeah, it is just, I get disapproving looks from people when they see

me wearing it, but I don't care.

Perfect.

All right.

And then during, well, during the lockdown time, it, this is where

this question derived from, but I still think it can, it can apply.

It felt like Groundhog's Day.

So like in the movie where bill Murray woke up to the same song every morning.

So if it really was Groundhog's Day at some point, what song would

you have wake you up every morning?

Two songs sprung into my mind, right?

One is my favorite song ever.

Which is a track called Unfinished Sympathy by Massive Attack.

I just love it.

It's beautiful.

Love that song.

But the other thing that popped into my head then was Shut Up by Stormzy.

Oh yeah.

I just think, yeah, I just love the energy.

Love it.

Cool.

All right.

Well, I, I have a Spotify playlist, so I'll probably just toss 'em both on and

you don't have to make the decision.

Yeah.

Alright, coffee or tea or neither?

Definitely coffee, black coffee espresso, the whole Napoli thing.

It's in my roots.

It's part of the contract I make with life.

I have to have to drink espresso and be that really, really snooty coffee dude

when people serve up crap espresso, I have to say something like where it wouldn't,

it wouldn't taste like this in Italy.

And my wife will say we shouldn't order it.

Because she, and she's right.

Of course, she's right.

I should only ever drink it over there or when I make it,

but yeah, espresso, love it.

Nice.

All right.

And can you think of a time that you like laughs already cried or just something

that always gets you when you think about it that that's safe to share?

Put it that way?

Yeah.

I I love really ranty, sweary, bad language, right?

I just find it funny when people are so breathtakingly rude.

Yeah.

They don't really have any kind of awareness

that they're being that rude.

So like, I, I know that like Malcolm Tucker in the Thick of It.

I can watch Malcolm Tucker Thick of It compilation videos

on YouTube, like forever.

And I've seen them all a million times and some of the insults are.

Off the scale, but they're like really, really, really, I find it just so funny.

And I, I mean, it is like actually, when I was spending a lot of time working in the

states at my last job, Every time I got on an airplane, I would be just so delighted

if they were showing VEEP on the plane.

Oh yes.

Because like it was made by the same people, but it had the American

angle on rudeness and insults.

And I just, I just think it's funny.

I can't...

so it's a combination of Malcolm Tucker and VEEP reruns or

combination YouTube videos, which

Have you watched succession yet?

No, I haven't, but I've heard so much about it.

Because you can look up Brian Cox F off and he, it's just a

compilation of him and I do curse, but I just try to not curse here that much.

What they say in that show too, they say the most incredible lines that

are the most vulgar and it's amazing.

So, I'm

Really, really out of the blue swearing, I find really

entertaining like in kind of semi-formal situations and then somebody just tells

somebody where they should be heading?

Love it.

Nice.

All right.

And the last one, which I'll see how hard this one is for you,

but who inspires you right now?

I mean, it there's so many people, I mean, like right now, probably the last week

or so, I mean, I'm constantly impressed by AOC in the US, like how, how she

presents her ideas and her constituents and her kind of values and stuff.

I just love that.

She's just amazing.

I think using digital channels to communicate with the people that

she's trying to communicate with.

So I love that.

Just that authenticity and, and passion.

She sent an, she sent a fundraising email recently, which was just so brilliant.

She's basically saying if you, if you're on my list, you're on

a load of other people's lists, but let me make a promise to you.

I'm never gonna like.

give you fake kind of calls to action or, or, or try and encourage

you to give to me purely out of like made up deadlines and all of this

false urgency and things like that.

And she was just talking about the movement and the community of which

she's a part of, rather than being at the center of or the figurehead of.

And I just thought it's like really quite inspiring.

And then I think over the longer term, I'm just constantly refreshed and

energized by the kind of creativity and passion of youth in the climate movement.

It's just amazing.

Refreshing to see.

I follow a UK based group called Green New Deal I think they're called.

And they've got young kids, like 15, 16, like going out and just doing these really

amazing actions with UK politicians and like trying to call them to account

or hold them to account on camera.

And it's just like the bravery and the tenacity of those kids makes me

absolutely realize that, you know, we have got a hope of fixing some

of this stuff with that energy.

Yeah.

Oh, awesome.

Yeah.

And AOC, I mean, she's, she is incredible.

And I got that email and yeah, there's always these emails you get, when you're

you sign up with one Democratic candidate basically, and you have like a million

emails from all of them, and they're always saying, oh, donate now, or, you

know, the election's over kind of thing.

And it's like, okay, fine.

Like, or maybe just do better guys, you know?

Yeah.

I dunno.

Yeah.

Alright.

So people wanna find you or follow you or even hire you, where should they go

and what you want, want them to look at?.

I'm, I'm kind of in all the usual spaces like Instagram and Twitter, like

Twitter is my name, Paul de Gregorio.

So I was lucky to get that much of the annoyance I think of some US electoral

commission type guy who's also called Paul de Gregorio, I think would love to have

my Twitter handle that he can't have it.

I've got it.

But also if, I suppose, if people are interested to any of the stuff

we've talked about today, I run a newsletter which is semi frequent.

I don't send it to a fixed kind of schedule, but it's all like

politics, mobilization, activism, campaigning, fundraising, all with

a digital and fundraising slant.

And that's one of those tiny newsletter things.

I have no idea if that's the right place for it to be, but it's tiny newsletter

dot com forward slash paul de gregorio (tinynewsletter.com/pauldegregorio)..

Cool.

Awesome.

Well, Paul this has been an absolute pleasure.

I'm glad we got to connect in this way.

So thanks so much for being on More Than Work.

Brilliant.

Thank you so much for having me.

It was quite fun and quite challenging to think through some of those

thinks so i hope that you listeners, don't think that you've hired a

pup or you've, you've brought on a, you've brought on a bad participant.

I don't think they will.

Thank you.

Cool, man.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for listening.

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe mafia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metke does all the design for which I am so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Rob M E T K E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch

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The pod is on all the social channels at at more than work pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at rabiahcomedy (@rabiahcomedy) on TikTok.

And the website is more than work pod dot com (morethanworkpod.com).

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to yourself.