E21_Our friend Julie - It's ok to sometimes feel sad

[00:00:00] Matt: Welcome to another episode of the Mindful Builder podcast. I'm just sitting here in front of my fireplace at the moment. How are you

[00:00:55] going Hamish?

[00:00:57] Hamish: Uh, do you know what? I do find that quite funny, and if anyone who does, follow her Instagram page, what do we, do we call it Fireplace Gate or something, Matt? Because holy shit, it tickled a few people.

[00:01:11] Matt: I don't know how we ended up on a tangent about COVID and Dan Andrews either. I don't know how the two are related. That was my

[00:01:16] favorite part.

[00:01:18] Hamish: Yeah. Julie, if you haven't seen, there was some heated discussion on our Instagram page about banning fireplaces. And, um, I kind of took a step aside from it and, uh, Matt stepped right in. That was quite amusing.

[00:01:34] Matt: You only took a step away from it because you ran over your phone with your

[00:01:37] lawnmower.

[00:01:39] Hamish: this is very true. And if anyone ever wants a break from social media, my advice is to go and mow your lawn on a Friday afternoon and have it fall out of your pocket and then mow over it, because it is probably the best two and a half days I've had in a long time.

[00:01:55] Matt: so today's conversation might be triggering for some. just highly suggest that if you want to put it to the side and wait and listen to another time or maybe listen to it with someone else that you trust, we're going to talk about depression and it can be a very hot topic that sometimes is danced around.

[00:02:09] Sometimes we don't directly talk about. But it's real. It's a real thing. It does happen and it can have huge, implications on people's lives. So again, Hamish and I like to be the dumbest people at the table. , we're surrounding ourselves with Julie, who's an expert psychologist. How are you today, Julie?

[00:02:24] Julie: Yeah, I'm good. Thanks guys. Another important topic to cover, which

[00:02:28] is great. Hmm.

[00:02:30] Hamish: Hey Jill, did you have your fireplace

[00:02:32] Matt: I was going? to ask the same question, dude. So

[00:02:39] Hamish: , I'm probably equally as nervous to say that I did their renovation and was, you know, guiltily a part of, putting that, , pellet heater into your home. maybe with the information that we know now, maybe we wouldn't have put it in there, but you know what?

[00:02:51] Here we are.

[00:02:52] Julie: do I say when you know better, you do better. So starting to think about what we're going to do next in terms of

[00:02:59] cooking and hating. Yeah you gotta come across information at some stage and then adapt

[00:03:04] to it. Hey.

[00:03:04] Hamish: Absolutely. Now, as Matt said, where today is another, you know, topic that some of us dance around. But it is a topic that actually affects. one in seven Australians. Julie, could you give us your professional definition of what depression is?

[00:03:23] Julie: Yeah. Sorry. you know, all of us are going to experience flat times and, and sad times and difficult times and feeling depressed per se is, you know, that's a normal part of life. When it starts moving into the clinical phase, so what we call major depressive disorder or a depressive episode, what we see is that the feelings are more intense. , The period lasts longer than two weeks and it starts to impact our day to day function. So feeling sad is a normal part of the human experience. Depression comes with a number of symptoms that we're going to talk about. So the two main ones are a low flat mood or flattened mood.

[00:04:03] And the other one that we look for is lack of enjoyment or joy in things. So we start. losing interest, or we just don't find things that we used to find fun or interesting or joyful that engaging anymore. So if we have either of those two symptoms, then we start to look a bit further into, , the other types of things that, will present with depression. So classically, I'll ask somebody, , what are some things that you find enjoyable? And have you been enjoying them lately? When's the last time you found that enjoyable? sometimes depression presents as a, is a real, can be a real absence of feeling. So sometimes people talk about sort of feeling numb or not feeling anything in particular and then we start to move into the other symptoms. Would you like me to

[00:04:47] run through those now?

[00:04:49] Matt: go for it. Give us all the

[00:04:50] Hamish: Yeah.

[00:04:51] Julie: Yep. So we start to see things like feelings of hopelessness or pessimism. , depression. We talked last time about anxiety.

[00:04:58] Anxiety is very future based. That's sort of what if, what's coming. Depression tends to be, current and past based. So that will often present as there's sort of no hope for the future. I can't sort of look forward to something and often looking back and what we call ruminating. So thinking over and over and over again about past events and how things could have, would have, or should have gone better or what I did or didn't do.

[00:05:24] That wasn't good. We're sort of, uh, We talk about this laundry list of things that people run through. We can have feelings of irritability or frustration or restlessness. that's often a real classic sign. Sometimes we think of people presenting, with depression as sort of flat and low, but it can sometimes present with anger.

[00:05:43] So anger and frustration can be a really common, way that it might present. Somebody might be feeling, , Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, or helplessness. We often see a change in energy. So often people start to feel really fatigued, lack of energy. They start to feel slowed down. , we can see a difficulty in concentrating, difficulty remembering things or making decisions. So you might be in the supermarket going, Can't decide what to have for dinner. Literally standing on tuna or salmon. Can't pick a tin. That real Indecisiveness not only over big things but small things, So we'll often see a change in sleep fascinating because that is sometimes precedes a depressive episode, a change in sleep.

[00:06:28] So often it's difficulty getting to sleep, , waking early in the morning, not being able to get back to sleep. They're two common ones. So that insomnia can't get to sleep or you'll have what we call early waking and then we're unable to get back to sleep. We see changes in weight, either up or down that are unplanned, so we might eat more than we, we would normally, sort of for comfort, or we might lose our appetite. Then we have a host of physical symptoms, and lastly we might start to have thoughts of, of death or suicide, or suicidal behaviours. So, not always, with depression doesn't necessarily mean that somebody starts to have thoughts or plans of suicide, , but that is certainly, can be part of the, the symptoms, yeah.

[00:07:11] Hamish: A lot of those, descriptors of depression are probably things that we've all experienced

[00:07:17] at one time or another.

[00:07:19] Would you say that, and probably just sort of circling back to something you said at the beginning, it's that kind of that prolonged feeling of that. So, you know, I might have a bad day where I might go into the supermarket and go, Oh, what am I?

[00:07:30] I don't know what I could choose salmon or tuna. And the next day I'll be really decisive. It's like, Fuck yeah, let's go salmon. , but what you're saying is that there's a prolonged pattern of that behavior,

[00:07:42] Julie: That's right. So we're wanting to say that, , for a minimum of two weeks. So yeah, we might all have a flat or a low or a difficult day. We might get some really bad news or, you know, might lose out on a job or something that's really difficult. And it's a really natural response to feel sad and flat and low. It's when we start to see those prolonged symptoms. And another thing to think about is that like any health condition. There are a number of symptoms that we look at and we need to tick off a number of those in order to actually meet the criteria for the condition. , so extended period of time plus a number of those symptoms. Yeah.

[00:08:21] Matt: So I'm going to generalize here, going to say that men are definitely not up to talking about this as much as females. Is there a reason why?

[00:08:30] Julie: you're absolutely right, Matt. Men in general, are less likely to access just generally healthcare, first of all, and then second of all, less likely to access mental healthcare. And so you asked the question why I think that's a really interesting question. There are societal expectations. That's why conversations like this is so incredibly

[00:08:49] Matt: Is it that blokey sort of like, I'm a man, I can deal with it, like, I've got to be tough and strong.

[00:08:56] Julie: absolutely. I think too, a lot of us were brought up in families where. our role models didn't necessarily, demonstrate being able to talk about difficult times or difficult emotions or being able to bring it up quite naturally. So it can seem really, you know, completely out of our familiar zone to be able to just even talk about it. also, you know, there's some stereotypes out there. I mean, women experience depression too, , actually at a higher rate than men, but we're talking about men accessing care. , There can be some perceptions of sort of, , seeming weak or soft or those types of things when realistically it's the opposite, reaching out and getting on with accessing help is actually, a really smart, wise thing to do.

[00:09:41] Matt: Oh, it shows strength. To me, like, like you look at it from like just a, general thought and you're someone that's able to speak up and able to have these conversations and deal with it. that's quite a strong thing to do. That's how I look at it. And I don't want to generalize and say that like, women don't have these problems.

[00:09:55] By the way, I just understand that our construction base is highly men.

[00:09:58] Like it's 98 percent men and we want to, that's the reason I bring this up sort of thing. So I don't want to sort of dismiss the fact that women don't have these problems either.

[00:10:07] Julie: Yeah. I think another thing is that, um, if we think about work, sometimes people feel that if they start to talk about, , a mental health condition that perhaps they might be treated differently or looked at differently. But the reality is like we were talking, last time that almost all Half of us, so it's 45 percent of Australians at some time in their life, will experience a mental health condition. And so, there are so many people out there, getting on with their day, at least half of us have experienced, mental health condition. So, yeah, it's common.

[00:10:42] Matt: I do have a question here that I've written down. , so it's fair to say that anxiety will sort of always stick around, which is we spoke about in our last episode. It's always a work in progress. And Hamish made the comment that he had a friend that it was like, I've done my 10 sessions, I'm fine. Is depression the same? Can you actually cure depression then? Because it's, if it's a past history. And it's something that you can kind of get over and move on from. Can you cure it?

[00:11:03] Julie: Yeah. please

[00:11:05] Hamish: these really great questions. I, and I was saying to the, he's just getting better and better. Good on you, Matt.

[00:11:12] Matt: I'll be on like 3AW soon or

[00:11:13] something like that.

[00:11:15] Hamish: Please don't,

[00:11:17] Julie: please

[00:11:17] don't, we'd have to end our

[00:11:19] friendship here, I

[00:11:20] Matt: It's Carl,

[00:11:21] Jackie O and

[00:11:21] Matt.

[00:11:22] Hamish: So

[00:11:26] Julie: Oh, hilarious. so what we want to talk about is, all of these conditions, , can be treated. Yeah. And so just because somebody has had anxiety in the past or depression in the past, that doesn't mean that they are depressed. Or anxious for the rest of their life with the right treatment, the right, tools in their toolbox and the right management. what we hope to attain is somebody below the clinical threshold. So they no longer meet the diagnostic criteria for anxiety or depression. We might tend to have a propensity for it. So often use examples like asthma. So let's say somebody has asthma. If they have the right preventer, they stay out of smoky areas, they do some exercise that keeps their lungs functioning really well, they might never be troubled again And mental health is a similar thing. So if it's , diagnosed and identified correctly, and then addressed with, you know, a whole host of things, not just psychology, it medication might be part of it. I've certainly worked with lots of people that once we get all of the right things in place, they don't need me anymore.

[00:12:29] And that's the goal. The goal is to either, if somebody, , can get to a space where they can self maintain, that's great. They may choose to continue to see a psych for, for maintenance. We talked about that last time. Yeah.

[00:12:42] Hamish: We touched briefly before on the difference between men and women, and obviously, I would assume that more men listening to this podcast than women, but do men and women present differently

[00:12:53] Julie: they certainly can. So, , if we're talking about some generalization, so women tend to what we call internalize. So a lot of the stuff is going on internally and broadly speaking, men can what we call externalize. So we might see might see anger. We might see frustration. We might see some things like, turning to drugs and alcohol. , more often, , we might see some risky behaviors because there's a discomfort internally and that's difficult to deal with. They, these thoughts and feelings and emotions are difficult to deal with. And so, we'll often see men externalized. So if I pick, if like a classic presentation, somebody might walk into my office and they're really pissed off, like they're, you know, things are pissing them right off. And I don't see. An angry grumpy person. I'm just curious going on. That's interesting. What's going on there? you know, somebody might say I've just got these anger issues and that's, , a little bell for me to be asking some further questions. So anger is a really common one, anger and frustration.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:53] Hamish: it's an interesting point you make , and probably something that I want to, dive into a little bit because, you know, we are talking to a larger , audience of men. I mean, I'm not going to name names, but I've had an experience, you know, recently where, , there has been some external behavior, which has been, Unusual.

[00:14:10] And I guess my immediate response is probably to bite back.

[00:14:15] sitting here now in this environment where we're having a chat about it now, my rational mind understands that, biting back is probably the worst fucking thing you should do, right?

[00:14:23] But in that situation, can you give us some tips about how we can respond to that?

[00:14:28] Julie: So I think the first thing would be to be looking after yourself. So if you've noticed that there's been a change in someone, usually you'd be having these types of conversations and somebody might not be getting angry and you're starting to see them getting more angry. So the first thing would be to look after yourself.

[00:14:44] So that might involve taking some deep breaths. It might actually involve you going, Hey, I'll get back to you in a second and taking yourself away so that you can regulate your distress and then come back to. the conversation. The other thing that we might want to do is to actually find a quiet moment and say, Hey, I'm a bit worried about you.

[00:15:07] I have noticed and really clearly identify what you've noticed. So I've noticed that when we talk about things, you seem to get angry quickly. Have you noticed that? And we're going to expect that if somebody's feeling flat and low and not great about themselves, because that's another part of what goes on with depression, it might take some time for you to be able to get a response back from them.

[00:15:30] So we need to give them some time to be able to, but if you're really clear, are you okay? I've noticed and really clearly the thing that you've noticed. So those two things, making sure that you look after yourself. So walking away, breathing, grounding, regulating, coming back, , but being really clear with what you're worried about and what you can say.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] Matt: So then on the flip side, what advice would you give to individuals supporting loved ones with depression? Like how would you best provide sort of some support and sort of help them provide self care to their loved ones?

[00:16:00] Julie: Yeah, so again, similar to what we're talking about there being really clear. Hey, I'm worried about you. I've noticed X or Y Give them some time to talk say for example, Hey, I've noticed that you're not going out as much as you used to you're not really hanging out with your friends anymore I'm worried about you Are you okay? Give them time to speak. Tell them that , there's no rush. You can get back to me.

[00:16:23] Matt: reason I ask this is, I feel that anxiety and depression, like anxiety, it's a little bit easier to go to someone and ask if they're okay, because the outcome potentially might not be as, bad, but with,, depression, we just commonly link suicide.

[00:16:35] Well, I, I actually do. my cousin took her own life and so for me, I associate the two.

[00:16:40] so when we talk about, like it, how it's so hard not to be like, shit, , this is,

[00:16:45] could be the outcome.

[00:16:46] Julie: the researchers really sound him out. You cannot put the idea of suicide into somebody's mind. Yep. And in fact, what will happen, I asked this question multiple times a week, are you having thoughts of, of hurting yourself or killing yourself? One of two things happen when you ask that question very clearly and very directly, one, The answer is no. No, I don't. Absolutely. I'm not thinking of that. I might ask some follow up questions or number two, they are, and then we need to get help. Just like we, we use that example of, of somebody having a heart attack. Yeah. , we want to know about the symptoms and then we want to make sure that we access help really quickly.

[00:17:29] And so even if, , as my role as a psychologist, if somebody is actively suicidal, I call in services. Yeah. So it's not, not even my job to whatever fix is, it's not my job to hold it. It's not my job to fix it. It's my job to be able to ask the questions. People are generally quite, um, relieved to be able to talk about it too.

[00:17:49] Yeah.

[00:17:51] Hamish: , I know we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but, in a work environment, what are some of the things that we could look out for, , if we're kind of suspecting that someone might be feeling a little bit depressed?

[00:18:00] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So things to look out for in others and yourself. You might notice that. , perhaps people aren't joining out in socially anymore, or you might be feeling like you don't want to go out socially. , we might start to see people who are not getting things done like they would normally. So perhaps they're not completing tasks as you would expect, or you're not completing tasks. Classic one is withdrawing from family and friends, because Often what's going on internally is somebody starts to feel flat and low. They you know, I don't want to inflict myself on anyone. I feel like such a burden. I don't want to bring other people down with my stuff. And so that creates this really tricky cycle because people will go, well, I don't want to hang out with people cause I, . I'm no fun, and they socially withdraw and isolate, and that actually makes things worse. So we'll see people withdrawing. Another thing that can happen with behaviours is that when you're feeling flat and low, you can start to become really dissatisfied with your behaviour.

[00:18:57] Relationships both your, , it might be with your significant other if you have one or your friendships or your family. And so that can be another driving factor for withdrawing. We definitely see increased use in alcohol and drugs. Not enjoying their usual activity. So let's say, I don't know, maybe you go and play golf with your mates or maybe you go and I don't know, ride your lawnmower or something together or go mountain biking. But if you start to see that people are, um, Withdrawing or, you know, they're just skipping , the usual social things. That's a classic one and unable to concentrate. So we'll see that people are struggling to remember things and concentrate, but that withdrawing, that's an absolute classic. Oh, I haven't seen, you know, Fred for a while. Bloody check in on Fred

[00:19:42] because that's potentially

[00:19:43] Hamish: you, Nonfred.

[00:19:45] Matt: And should you call or text or

[00:19:47] Julie: all of the above Yep, and what you should do is not take no response as an answer Yeah, so if someone's feeling flat and low just keep texting them Just the contact is really helpful.

[00:20:01] So you might send them a funny meme or I don't know You A stupid joke or anything like that, but it's that contact interspersed with, Hey, I haven't seen you for a while. You're okay.

[00:20:13] Hamish: don't want this to turn into a podcast of where I kind of share things that, you know, in my life, but I think it is important to maybe have some real life, examples of actually how talking about things can help.

[00:20:25] I have this. workout group. I've got a WhatsApp group where I've got a bunch of local guys in Warrandyte where they come to my shed. I've got a little home gym set up and it's really turned into be like one of my happiest places because of the endorphins and I really enjoy doing it and mingling with my friends.

[00:20:43] usually with the change of the seasons, I get a little bit flat. And I don't know if that's a common thing to happen, Julie. Julie's nodding her head. Thank you. Yep. I found, you know, if I think about the past, it happens to me I messaged the group and I said, look, There was a discussion about, , mental health and stuff like that. And I just admitted it and said, look, , I'm actually feeling pretty flat at the moment, you know, I'm, you know, just struggling a little bit and bang, did I get a flurry of text messages back from these guys, individual messages saying, do you want to catch up and my experience off the back of this, Was at the end of the day yesterday, I felt loved and included and, , I was in a really good mood knowing that I had all these people in my side, in my corner.

[00:21:28] , wanting to help me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that no matter how many friends you have in your life, you have people, friends and family, who want to help you. So don't be shy about reaching out. I'm

[00:21:42] Matt: Yeah. Support networks are awesome. you created that support network and I think it's very important that people put that support network around themselves. And good quality people.

[00:21:51] Hamish: very proud of myself there that I managed to, tell that story without crying this time.

[00:21:55] Matt: Good job, dude.

[00:21:56] Julie: Either way is good. I can't remember if I've mentioned this before, but my master's project was, , looking at evidence based therapies for postnatal depression and anxiety in men. And so I've worked with. a number of men over the years where it's their absolute first time coming to see a psychologist and I absolutely love it because generally speaking people can be really skeptical about whether it's going to be helpful, but often very scared, , and not used to being Doing what you're just doing there, Hamish, talking about what's going on. And it is an absolute joy when I have been working with somebody for a while talking about how it's okay to talk about these things. And then , we go through a number of barriers and I just love it when somebody comes in and says, you'll never guess what happened. I go, what? I had a barbecue last week with my mates and I talked to one of them. And they were really scared to talk to one of their mates, and then their mate listened, and then their mate shared what was going on for them. And suddenly you've got the start of this deeper friendship. But really importantly, what you're talking about there, which is this really supportive friendship, because we know that, , social connections are just one of the biggest protective factors in mental health.

[00:23:13] And for men, Holy guacamole, it's just so incredibly important. Women, on the whole, tend to be a little bit better at maintaining these, social connections and these deeper friendships. On the whole, there's some stereotypes about there where men are not necessarily as good or as focused at maintaining those friendships. I mean, you're a great example, Hamish, of going, yeah, hey, not feeling so great. Instantly, people want to help. They really do. You're not a burden. You're not a pain in anyone's ass. It's that, oh, okay. Yep. Just want to help your mates. So that's one of my favorite things when guys go out and do that.

[00:23:54] Yeah.

[00:23:55] Hamish: you, you touched on medication very lightly before,

[00:23:59] And correct me if I'm wrong, but as a psychologist, you can't prescribe medication. Is that correct? Or you can.

[00:24:06] Julie: no, absolutely correct. So I can't prescribe. So the only people that can prescribe mental health medication, uh,, your GP and a psychiatrist. And so I'm, I will certainly have a conversation with somebody around, , it might be part of their, , toolkit for someone. and certainly for some conditions it's a vitally important that people are, are well medicated.

[00:24:31] Hamish: want to follow it up by saying as a man, there is part of me that. Thinks medication is a cop out. Now I know for a fact that it's not right. And I really want to go down to the record of saying that in my opinion, medication is a really important, , part in some people's, journey through depression and anxiety.

[00:24:53] I want to hear from your, your, in your words, like the importance of medication in some cases and how it like can actually help someone who's in quite a depressive state and that it's actually okay. Okay. To have medication.

[00:25:08] Julie: Yeah. Before I say that, I'll just start with a question. Do you have the same view around heart medication?

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:17] Hamish: Yeah.

[00:25:18] No, look, absolutely. Right. Like, okay. So I've got ADHD, right. I'm actually going down the process at the moment to get medicated because you know, there's part of my personality that I actually struggled to regulate sometimes. So it is going to be a part of my journey. , but there still is this feeling inside of me.

[00:25:37] Even though that I know it's the right decision, there's a feeling inside of me, that kind of feels you know, I should be able to figure this stuff out. But like, you know, intellectually, I know it's okay to kind of get help. So I guess I want you just to maybe talk through that a little bit, not, not me personally, but just people's stigma against medication, just in general, and that it is actually okay to,

[00:25:59] have and to help.

[00:26:01] Julie: it's pretty fascinating, isn't it? That, that sort of, cheeky question around, you know, the heart medication, but that's a really common way that people think about mental health medication. First of all, if we're working with people and we, we absolutely respect their autonomy. So their ability to be able to make their own choices. My job is to sit here and talk about whether something may or may not be appropriate for their presentation. And then refer them back to their GP or a psychiatrist to talk about medication. well, there's so many examples. If I give you an example, uh, , for doing cognitive behavioral therapy and we're learning how to challenge some of our negative thoughts or anxious thoughts. It can be really challenging if somebody's, you know, very, very anxious or very, very low to actually be able to do the work. And so for some people, medication is a short term option during that phase to be able to get to a place where you can, what I say, where you can actually do the work. So if you are super duper flat and low and you cannot get out of bed, it's all very well to go, Oh yeah, exercise and be really helpful for you.

[00:27:05] I mean, holy crap. Somebody's so flat mowed, they can't get out of bed. Yeah. can be really helpful and it doesn't have to be, , for the rest of your life. Yeah.

[00:27:13] Hamish: you know what? I, I immediately think about, some of my experiences , in post surgery recovery where, um, managing pain is a really important thing and managing, inflammation of that particular joint or whatever. , and I guess I think about the times where I've had pain medication to actually then help me get through that physio.

[00:27:33] Which is actually going to help me get to that result where that joint, shoulder, wrist, whatever is, , in a better working order. I mean, is that a, nice little analogy to kind of relate it to? So,

[00:27:43] Julie: Yeah. I really liked that. I haven't heard that before, but it's for some people, medication is, is a short term, coping strategy or management strategy, excuse me, to be able to get to a space where they don't need it anymore. I would just pop this in though. , and the, the recommendations are, it's not just medication alone. So if somebody is in a space where medication is being prescribed, absolutely. The outcomes are much better if they're having some psychological therapy at the same time. we don't

[00:28:13] Matt: But they work hand in hand with each other.

[00:28:15] Julie: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:28:18] Yeah. I'm

[00:28:20] going

[00:28:22] Hamish: Julie, there you go. That that's the, it's the analogy that keeps on giving.

[00:28:26] Julie: to take that one away. I'll probably use that at work tomorrow.

[00:28:30] Matt: got a question here. And, like, causes of social media, , causes of depression. And I've got social media and depression. What is the links and the changes that were found over time? This sort of thing has created a bit of a monster in some people's brains. I know, especially what we do, Hamish, people see what we do and it looks all fine and dandy half the time. But it's not always reality. And how is that sort of linked to this um, state of depression in some people's minds?

[00:28:56] Julie: Yeah, there's some really solid links between social media use and, declining mental health. I've got about a million and one answers, so I'll pick, two. One is that, , We've got these mammal brains. Yeah, and we love to think we're smart and intelligent and these incredible things But we've got a mammal brain and a mammal brain Responds and is highly attracted to what's called intermittent reward So, I could bore you with the, the studies, but if we give, uh, rats or mice rewards, high value rewards at a known, , interval, that sets off less dopamine in their brains than intermittent reward. Social media is just your classic intermittent reward, generating device. So we've got, notifications that come up and we don't know that they're coming. Yeah. So we, we can't predict them. We've got likes and we've got comments and we don't know when they're coming. And each one of those goes ping, ping, ping, ping. dopamine is released, stimulates the receptors. And so it's, um, diabolical actually, how well designed it is similar to poker machines. That's a whole other conversation. And so. We start to become for want of a better word addicted. It's a very attractive thing to a mammal brain. The other thing that it does is back in the day, back when we were roaming the Savannah in, , caves and such, we had a very small tribe say 40 or 50 people in a tribe. And so our social connections were with real people. And it really matters what the people in our tribe think of us because inclusion is really important. But we only ever had to track a certain number of people. Social media is how many people like me? Am I getting likes? And our mammal brain cannot tell the difference between our tribe members and these people on that, that, that are liking us or not liking us. And our brain reacts the same way. It's actually really problematic If we go back to that tribe example, we needed to be included in a tribe. It's really important that we do things and that other people approve or like or want to keep us in that tribe because that keeps us alive. Now the likes and the not likes, our brain can't tell the difference.

[00:31:19] Matt: And people suck. The stuff, the comments that people can write and have a crack at people. Like, I know we spoke with Sarah from Electrify, this Hamish and the shit she was getting, that what they were saying to her is fucking, like,

[00:31:29] I like, I've referred them as low lives, but.

[00:31:32] Hamish: , even the interactions that we were having off, the episode we have with Cam with the, with the fireplace comment. I mean, people just feel like they've got agency to comment on anything and like horrendous comments,

[00:31:44] Matt: really hope some are listening and they're actually like, Hey, yeah, you know what, this actually might be me. I need help.

[00:31:48] Hamish: I've got a strategy to, to cut back your social media, mow over your phone with a lawnmower.

[00:31:54] Julie: I like it. toolkit.

[00:31:55] Hamish: was a

[00:31:56] really beautiful thing to come out of that experience? So for anyone that doesn't know, last Friday I was mowing the lawn and I accidentally mowed over my phone and it blew up. my immediate thought, and I shit you not, when I say this, my immediate thought was, huh, this is going to be a really quiet and distraction free long weekend.

[00:32:14] And I'll tell you what, when my phone is not there, I do not have this compulsion to go and check it. So I've made a promise to my seven year old son that comes six o'clock every Friday.

[00:32:26] I'm going to turn my phone off and not turn it on until Sunday. Now, there's a couple of caveats around it. You know, if I'm home alone with the kids, I'm going to tell Darcy where it is and he can turn it on and all that stuff. Or if I'm out with the kids, I'll have it on me. Two and a half days of not feeling like I have to check my phone was incredible.

[00:32:46] Julie: get yourself a lockbox instead of mowing them over. There they go.

[00:32:49] Matt: I'm using a good app, Blockr app at the moment. So I, like I only did this last night, but I've been doing it for a while at certain times at night where I just log on and I just block certain apps for two, three hours and it's awesome. So I'm actually trying to make a habit of it. The moment I walk in the door now at night, I'm going to block it for hours.

[00:33:05] Julie: It's a really good thing to do. when we're relying on willpower, that's really challenging. So if we just go, oh, I'm not going to check my phone for the next hour and a half, you can't actually turn off your mammal brain there that, is, is on high alert because your phone is also sources of, connection, but it's also sources of news. And so expecting your brain to not look out, you know, like a whole bunch of meerkats popping up and looking around your brain is looking toward that phone. That's what it's going to do. And so doing things that mechanically stop you going near the phone are really helpful. Yeah.

[00:33:42] Matt: I have another question here, what are the biggest misconceptions around depression?

[00:33:47] Julie: Oh, that's a really good question. The biggest misconceptions. I think that that point that people are necessarily flat and low, and so that presentation where people can present as angry, , the other one too. unfortunately, we, we see people who, use all of their energy to put on the smile and do all the good stuff at work.

[00:34:08] , and then they're, you know, at home suffering greatly. So, I mean, Robin Williams is a pretty good example there. Somebody who's. lots of fun and happy. depression doesn't necessarily look like the stereotypical flat, low, sad. , and so that's why we definitely want to look out for those other types of things where those, those changes in behaviors, , and, you know, setting up networks where we actually are talking to each other.

[00:34:34] Yeah.

[00:34:34] Matt: So can depression then be genetic?

[00:34:37] Julie: Mm. Absolutely. the risk factors, uh, things like a family history of depression. same with anxiety, so any health condition, if there's a family history, , that's one of the risk factors. Yeah.

[00:34:49] Hamish: I probably want to wrap this up, Julie. It's been incredibly, valuable and insightful, but my last question to you is how would I talk to someone that I'm worried about? And I think this is a really great question to leave on. Uh, and if, , people are going to take one thing away from this podcast, let's make this a really great answer because I think it's really important.

[00:35:13] pressure.

[00:35:13] Julie: No pressure. I'll bring my a

[00:35:16] game for this question.

[00:35:18] Yeah. So there's no right or wrong way to do this. , and I make mistakes too. And you know, I'm the so called trained professional and I make mistakes. So that's okay. But be genuine, explain why you're concerned. So we talk about saying, I've noticed you're not going out as much, or I've noticed. you seem to be more angry or I've noticed you're getting really frustrated. Is everything okay? Be prepared to wait and be prepared to have to approach it a couple of times. , Often, somebody's got a lot going on in their head. Especially with depression, sometimes their thinking is slower. The actual cognitions are slower. we do want to be able to be comfortable with, with silences, which is sometimes, you know, not the easiest thing to do. Listen. It sounds simple, doesn't it? But listen to what they tell you, and don't start giving advice. Just start to ask them more about what's going on for them, and be really comfortable with that silence. and then as the conversation moves on, we can then start to talk about, I'm a bit worried.

[00:36:20] Do you feel like some help might be be useful? Have you thought about that? Not barreling on and go right. I'm doing this for you, but just slowly and gently Reassurance, so making sure you know, you don't have to do this all by yourself. I'm here for you. I'm here things can get better we can talk about this and Patience. Yeah, so sometimes it's going to take a couple of goes before somebody's going to Answer open up so you haven't failed if you've gone. Hey, I'm worried about you. I've seen these things, you know, are you okay? You can talk to me and they don't talk to you. Don't take it personally, just give it another try.

[00:36:59] Matt: , they're super, super helpful tips and I'm, I'll put my hand up and be the person and say like, I've, in that situation before, I've tried to problem solve for people

[00:37:08] And I know being in that situation, you don't want that, but it's, it's a natural instinct because you just want to help them,

[00:37:14] like, you really really want to help them, but, and you want to try to fix a problem, but sometimes that isn't the best thing to do,

[00:37:21] Hamish: my advice for people is to bookmark Julie's answer for that and listen to it again. Because, , there's some absolute gold in there. So thanks for that, Julie.

[00:37:29] Matt: Yeah. And for coming on again and I will. Be speaking to you very shortly. I know the one takeaway I've had from this myself. It's, it's okay to feel sad. Sometimes

[00:37:39] I think it's really important that you can feel sad and be upset and have shit days,

[00:37:43] but don't be afraid to speak out. As Julie said, it shows a huge amount of courage and strength to be able to work through something like this very openly, but again, thank you very much for joining Hamish and I on this awesome wet

[00:37:56] day.

[00:37:57] Hamish: I just want to say as we so on out here that I love both of you very much, and I'm

[00:38:01] Matt: I love you too.

[00:38:02] Hamish: are in my life.

[00:38:03] Julie: Love you

[00:38:03] Matt: Thanks buddy.

[00:38:04] Julie: Take

[00:38:04] care.

[00:38:04] Matt: buddy