Welcome to Romans Road, the podcast of me, Eddie Roman.

This is where we talk about evangelism and apologetics and all kinds of Christian stuff.

If you have seen the news in the last month, you have probably seen something about UFOs.

UFOs have been in the news quite a bit.

We're going to talk to someone who has had direct contact with.

With aliens, UFOs, all that crazy stuff that most of us only see in the movies.

And how does that all fit into what the Bible has to say about all this stuff?

And so I'm here today with Jack Moreno Chin.

How you doing, Jack?

Good.

I'm so glad to be here.

It's such a joy to be on this podcast.

As you know, it's one of my favorite ever.

That's good.

So this is extremely exciting for me.

Yeah, if you guys watch Way the Master, you might recognize Jack from an episode we did a couple years ago on UFOs.

And so if you did see that, we're going to get a little further into her story today.

Jack also is just about to come out with her first book.

All right, tell us about your book.

Lord willing, coming out June 2026, follows my testimony.

Kind of like a trail using really what I got into at each point along the way, how I ended up deep in the occult, practicing ritual magic in a Masonic Temple.

I didn't just wake up one day there.

It was a very slow progression and using little moments in my story as jumping boards to dive into what I was taught and then open the Bible and show how they are completely opposed to Scripture.

It's one thing for a person to study cults, study witchcraft, study all these different things and have information on it.

It's a very different thing when these things have affected your life personally.

You saw your first UFO when you were little?

Yes.

So tell us, how did this whole thing begin?

Yes.

So I thought I was a Christian growing up, just like I was an American, or I'm somewhat Italian.

I thought you were just kind of born into it because my family was Christian, but I don't remember hearing the gospel in Sunday school that I went to.

That doesn't mean I didn't hear it, but I just didn't have a strong biblical foundation.

And.

And I was sexually abused as a child, which left me very confused and isolated and kind of looking for identity and meaning in the midst of the lies and the pain and the shame of all that.

And when I was around seven, after my parents also had separated because my dad had drug and alcohol abuse Problems.

And my mom didn't think it was safe for us to live with him anymore in the turmoil of all of that.

I was outside at a friend's house.

Well, really the family that used to watch me because my mom worked a full time job and was a single parent now.

And I saw these lights in the sky.

And they weren't just lights in terms of just seeing something, but it felt like this very deep, familiar, personal, powerful presence.

And the only context that I had for that was that they must be the angels of my dad's two friends who had passed away from complications with drug and alcohol abuse coming to visit me.

And I really clung on to that.

And a big part of that was this belief now that whatever small amount I learned about Christianity, I need to have a bigger worldview that fits in this really powerful experience that I had where I believed that they communicated to me that I was special to them, that they knew everything that had happened to me.

Like they knew everything that I was hiding and that had happened.

And they still accepted me and loved me.

And I left that experience with this idea that there was more to embrace.

And I kind of just grew this lust or desire for more supernatural experiences because it felt so exciting to me and gave me a sense of identity and in a time in my life when I was really just lost.

So it sounds like in the beginning you looked at this whole thing as these are guardian angels.

Was that something that you think you just kind of came to the conclusion on your own, or was it like feelings you got from these beings or how do you think you came to that conclusion?

That's a great question.

I think I.

That was the only context that I had for supernatural being is loosely hearing about angels or guardian angels.

But very shortly after I told a family member about this and this family member told me about aliens and UFOs and how this family member had had a strong connection with them throughout his life and really identified with the constellation Orion.

And so that seemed to fit my experience a lot more.

I just hadn't heard of that really before.

And so then I really latched onto this alien thing.

Wow.

They have chosen me.

I am special to them, them.

And it makes sense in that it's not just me, but there are other people who have experienced the same kind of connection, this feeling of familiarity with this kind of experience.

Okay, so what happens next?

I continue pursuing more supernatural experiences now because there's such a high with that experience of it just felt supernatural and it almost was a form of escapism.

For me to escape my feelings to.

To have another high like that.

So I.

Because it sounds like you had a pretty hard childhood.

Yeah.

So I learned about Ouija boards from my friends, started playing with those and got that same kind of feeling of excitement with both the maybe forbidden, but maybe I can really contact something supernatural.

Then I started making my own Ouija boards out of wood, thinking I can get more power.

Wow.

I've never heard of anyone making their own Ouija board.

Wow.

Okay.

I was probably in middle school by this time and I just thought rather than a board game at the store, if I make my own out of wood and write on it myself, then maybe it'll have more power to contact being.

So I really was driven by this desire to have more of those experiences that gave some form of excitement and identity and escape to my life.

And that's so interesting because the idea of having a guardian angel and seeing these things in the sky and a Ouija board, which we're all told from the time we're kids that, you know, stay away from, these are bad, these are crazy.

That somehow those two things are giving you the same feelings or the same experiences.

Yes.

So by the time I get well, really even in middle school, I developed an eating disorder and was self harming as another means to just cope with the pain inside.

So there's a lot going on inside.

And in high school I started drinking and using drugs.

Even though I'd seen firsthand it was totally destroy my dad's life.

I found so much identity in the approval of my friends that eventually I just thought, you know what?

I'll just do this for now.

I'll go back to doing being who I really am later.

But for now I'm going to do this.

And pretty much right away.

The first time I drank hard alcohol, I knew I didn't want to feel any other way but that for the rest of my life because I actually forgot the abuse.

I actually felt numb.

And I really did escape in that moment.

So.

So that kind of began my life as an addict, addicted to drugs and alcohol, completely obsessed with my next fix, trying to find escape.

What age was this about?

I started drinking when I was 15.

Okay.

And that snowballed into more guilt, more shame, embarrassing moments, giving way more of myself away than I thought in high school.

Until I got into a relationship with a man who was older than me and lived on the a Native American reservation.

And he started teaching me about Native American beliefs and the ancestors.

And he believed that his family was all given gifts to speak with dead people.

And his gift was to communicate with the earth.

And so that whatever little amount that I still was holding on to of Christianity, identifying as a Christian while living just like the world, I started giving away more and more to have.

Again, thought I needed to have a more open mind to embrace these other worldviews.

We'd stay up all night drinking and doing drugs on the reservation and would talk about aliens as well and his experiences with them and how that ties into his beliefs as a Native American.

So that really just continued fueling this belief that, you know, whatever I learned, which again was a very small amount, I didn't have a biblical understanding of Christianity, of Christianity.

I just need to have a more open mind to embrace all these supernatural experiences.

You said that your former boyfriend, that he had some kind of connection between Native American beliefs and aliens.

Touch on that a little bit.

You know, we didn't go into a lot of depth on where religiously that ties in, but just the idea that I'm not alone or I'm not crazy for having these experiences, but that the natives, they've been communicating with the ancestors for a long time, they've been having these supernatural experiences, gifts to speak to deceased people, connections with different elements, that I wasn't alone in what I was seeing either, but that that was something throughout their tradition that they had experienced.

So that made me feel like, you know, whatever I'm experiencing, there's more depth to explore.

There are more different religions that embrace these ideas.

And having never read the Bible, I didn't know that Christianity speaks to these kind of things.

So the first time when you saw these lights in the sky, what exactly happened there?

Like what do you remember seeing and what did they do and what was that like?

I was very young, I was probably around seven.

But what I just remember so vividly was two lights that kind of looked like stars but in a day lit sky.

And they were very clearly personal beings.

Whereas when you look at a star, it's a star.

These felt very familiar, very powerful, very personal.

And in my, you know, little brain, all that I really could think about that was, okay, what is personal, what is powerful?

I've heard about angels, so that kind of put that there, but really they were just going up and down towards me and away from me and it.

And for lack of better words, I believe that they communicated with me not with words, but I guess telepathically, just an inner knowing that they accepted me and I was special and they chose me and all those things.

And that's so interesting because even though you were young and you probably hadn't watched Close Encounters of the Third Kind and all these different types of documentaries on people who supposedly have contact with aliens, the concept of being communicated to without words and just having your feelings affected and just learning some new thing from these, these lights that's consistent with what you see.

And you listen to the stories of all these different people who have, you know, claimed to have contacted aliens.

And the thing that I always wonder about, and even now when we're seeing in the news and all these military guys are showing videos of what they saw, and, you know, these high US officials are talking about UFOs being real, the one thing that continues is the fact that we've never been given any kind of solid evidence to where we could look at it and go, here it is, here's this alien guy.

He's right here.

Talk to him.

Or here's this ship, let's take a ride in it and go to dimension number 43 or whatever.

And it's always just this mysterious, kind of right out of the grasp of reality kind of thing.

And it's just so interesting because when you look at that, it has so much similarity to what the Bible would describe as the demonic realm, the spiritual realm, you know, that's what's so interesting about this whole thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, let's keep going with your testimony.

So you're talking to this man and he is talking about Indian beliefs and.

Am I allowed to say Indian anymore?

Is it Native American?

It's my podcast.

I'll say whatever.

So Native American beliefs and their spirituality and how that kind of is in some way connected to UFO stuff.

And so what happens next?

Yes, and since we are focusing on the alien stuff, I should say that throughout my life I continued having different experiences with these beings.

I then believed.

I mean, there was a time when I was living with my mom.

I would have been under nine And I believe that they were coming from the tree outside our window.

I would hide below the window, thinking that they were watching me, but also feeling like I really wanted to connect with them.

But their power was so strong that I was afraid.

Like, in the daytime, I'd really have a desire to connect with these beings.

But then once night started falling, things started feeling a little scarier.

I'd be afraid to get what I wanted in that sense.

So throughout my life, there's this weird push and pull, but continual connection with these beings.

I've seen some of your posts and I've seen that You've had drawings of what they looked like.

Was there a point where you actually saw them or what was that like?

Yes, I would say I saw them most clearly later in my life, although I think when I was even young, I had an idea of, you know, almost like the gray looking beings.

I did end up seeing signs later around the time.

I don't know how old I would have been, but it's kind of like that kind of creature.

So it's hard to say if they actually, if that was an original thought or if I was kind of putting a form on these spirits.

Weird, the spiritual thing that was going on, because it felt very spiritual, more than physical and powerful in a spiritual way.

More than a tall guy standing in front of me overpowering me.

Right.

So, okay, but the drawings you have, they did kind of match that what you think about when you think of a alien.

And so what you're saying is you're not sure if that was because you'd seen pictures of it, you know, already, and you just kind of, you know, figure it out.

I would say when I was young, whatever concept I had was more, could have been more of me taking the small amount that I knew and trying to understand what I was experiencing spiritually.

But as I got older and when I was deep in the occult, I started having very clear physical manifestations of these beings.

And that's what I was drawing.

And they were very.

I don't think that was as much influenced by pop culture because it was so specific.

You just mentioned getting into the occult.

Right.

And so, and it's interesting because you think if someone was to see an alien or a UFO when they're younger, well, maybe they end up following that and they become an astronaut or an astronomer or someone who's a scientist and they're looking for these things.

But so often when it comes to reports of alien encounters, it's usually more often than not mixed in with some kind of supernatural thing.

Either the person is currently on drugs when it's happening, or they're having some kind of religious experience.

And so when did that begin for you as far as like the entry into the occult?

Well, it's hard to.

I would say even in high school I got in into the law of attraction through the book the Secret.

And so that was kind of a starting point for me into manifesting and that kind of belief system.

Okay, so I'm going to stop you for a minute.

You just said a phrase that a lot of people might not understand, and it's probably one of the most well known common building blocks of the New Age movement, the Law of Attraction.

What is the Law of attraction?

Basically, it's that your thoughts create your reality and you can attract like things like attracts like.

So if I were to think a lot about a red car, imagine how it feels to be inside of it, smell the new leather, really get my senses involved, then I can put out a frequency into the universe to place an order and attract that to me.

Basically that you are a co creator with God or you are the most magnetic, powerful being that there is.

You're the one creating your own reality really.

The magic wands in your hand to get what you want.

Once you learn the secret and it's packaged in the book, the secret as this just fun, harmless thing that all these really successful people are already using and that's how they got rich.

So if you just think positively, plus these other ways to think positively in a way to attract what you want, then you, you can have whatever you want and you deserve it.

So it sounds very attractive to our flesh and what we want out of this world.

Sinfully, but the core teaching of the occult is the macrocosm in the microcosm.

In the microcosm.

In the macrocosm meaning kind of like man is a reflection of God and whatever's inside is a reflection of what's outside.

Outside is reflection of inside.

And because of that you have the power to reflect out your inner world and vice versa.

And in the occult it's a, it's a core concept and a huge interplay.

So that was a building block to.

When I was deep in the occult, I, I could see this was like occult light packaged very well.

And the short version of that is you are God, right?

Can be God, you can be like God.

Yeah.

And it's interesting because it's not only packaged in New Age like that, it's packaged in Christianity like that in the form of the faith movement.

If I pray this prayer and ask God for this car or this money or whatever, if I have enough faith, then I'm going to get it.

And it's also a big part of secular society, just the world.

And it comes in the form of if you want something bad enough, you can get it, you know, and it's always kind of nebulous.

So yeah, there's a principle.

If you work hard, you, you can achieve stuff for sure.

But the idea that if I believe something so much that eventually it's going to come to me like that starts getting into some kind of magic you know, okay, so the law of attraction.

And in its most basic form, it just goes against the idea that as Christians, we get what God wants to give to us.

We don't get what we want, we get what he wants.

So along with the law of attraction comes a lot of opportunity just to be greedy, you know.

Okay, law of attraction, I cut you off, now you can keep going.

Yes.

And then I ended up getting into another relationship after the one with the Native American man ended.

And this man was a drug dealer.

And he.

I didn't realize it at the time, but he was teaching me New age ideology.

And the first time we met, I felt that same familiar feeling that I felt as a seven year old seeing those lights in the sky, this deep familiarity and connection.

And even though I wasn't romantically attracted to him and we were just friends at first, I moved in right away.

I felt this just weird spiritual connection.

And long story short, we ended up in a relationship.

I started believing that we were something called twin flame flames, which is.

He taught me that we'd lived hundreds of past lives and in most of them we ended up together.

And some of them we chose to have different quests because God's learning through our experience and all brought in reincarnation and all these things.

But basically that we were the same soul split into two bodies.

So this man became like a God to me.

I looked up to him so much, much like a guru.

And in that relationship we started going to festivals similar to Burning man on a small scale.

I was trying psychedelic drugs and we started using crystals to manifest to heal ourselves.

And I started getting deep into astrology.

And so that was really a big entry point for me into, you know, really embracing these new ways, age concepts.

But there were some things at these festivals that were very pagan or judistic and I just could not do any of it.

And I thought that I couldn't be a free spirit and I couldn't be liberated because my Christian dogma was holding me back from being free like everyone else.

And I started to grow a real anger towards my, you know, Christian upbringing and a desire to completely sear my conscience and run into this stuff.

And from there that relationship ended in an extremely confusing way where spiritually, apparently it didn't end, but just physically it did.

And I wanted to get to the core of the power.

My dad was going through a lot.

The relationship ended and he was my reason for living.

And I was just thinking, clearly, this isn't working.

I'm being held back, back by whatever this conscience is holding me back.

I just need to dive into this.

And so I spent all my time really being led.

I was wanting beings to use my body and see through my eyes because I thought that was noble.

I didn't think that was possession.

And I was channeling and ended up being led to tarot cards by Alistair Cross that I was absolutely obsessed with and started taking in the concepts on the cards and practicing tarot and really getting into Masonic literature, ancient Egyptian mythology, embracing all these occult concepts.

I wasn't working at the time, so I was like one of those crazy people.

A lot of free time.

Absolutely.

I had a clothesline across my studio apartment, like just pinning up these ideas.

It was, it was a whole scene.

I was very lost.

But to make a long story short, I ended up being led to an order called the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

I kept not wanting to join it because Aleister Crowley was in it.

I knew he was known as the most wicked man to have ever lived.

I had these arbitrary judgments of morality, but because I kept being led back to it, I ended up joining an order that was in Los Angeles that practiced this golden dawn system of ritual, magic, ceremonies, magic.

So interesting.

You wanted to be in this order, but at the same time you didn't want to.

And then you look back, you wanted to be with this guy.

But.

And it's like this pattern that I think all of us go through where we know something is wrong, but we just do it anyway.

Yes.

Because our sin, nature just wins.

Yes.

So often you talked about channeling.

Right.

And so what, what is happening when someone is channeling?

You know, I've never been in the room when, when that's going on, what, what's taking place there or.

Except what was like for you.

Yeah.

What did that look like?

So I still believed I had a special connection with these alien entities and that was just prevalent throughout my whole life.

And I wanted to connect with them because I thought that that would help me ascend and awaken more and that they were my guides and I just needed to connect with them more, but I was afraid to.

So it was like feeling the fear and doing it anyway was a huge motto that I had.

That is so unwise, but I use that as an excuse to dive into darkness.

So I would enter a trance like state a lot of the time through breathing techniques that relax your body and get you into a zoned out state, basically where you have.

You're not supposed to think anything, just empty.

And with an intention, though, to Connect with those beings.

And sometimes I'd use a guided meditation.

There are things called binaural beats that do different things in your ears to try to force your brain to get into a altered state of consciousness ultimately.

And then just from that totally guards down state and the intention and asking to connect with those beings to then either write down what you're receiving, which is called automatic writing, or just take it in.

And that was something that I love doing because I believed that these entities loved me.

It wasn't like.

Which is.

Sounds wild, but there was this lifelong connection with these beings that I thought wanted to help me and give me more power and help me grow.

So there was a real relational thing.

Thing to it, to where when I believed that they were communicating with me, that they wanted to use my body and see through my eyes because they'd chosen me.

And before I incarnated, I signed a soul contract saying that this is what I wanted.

So I was just going along with what I already said I wanted before.

This whole loop of thoughts that made me think them.

Entering my body and seeing through my eyes is a good thing as opposed.

To what we see in horror movies where someone just gets possessed and all of a sudden they're, you know, writing this thing and they don't like it.

Yeah, these were your friends and like that kind of thing.

Yeah, man, that's a.

That's a lot.

And it's so.

It's so opposed to scripture where we're called to be sober minded and take our thoughts captive and be filled, filling our mind, letting the word of Christ dwell richly in us.

The opposite, the complete opposite is encourage, where there's no good thought, no bad thought, you're to think nothing, no judgment, just accept whatever comes to you.

And the experience you described, and as I said before, it's consistent with what I've heard and read from other people who've been contacted by aliens.

These kind of experiences are exactly why it makes so much sense just to look at this not as a spaceman issue, but as a demonic issue.

All these things are the same thing that you hear about when you're just looking at the Bible and the way demons operate.

It's a spiritual thing.

It's not like a demon comes up to someone and has a conversation with them with an audible voice.

It's spiritual stuff.

And that's what you're describing here.

That's a great point.

A huge thing that I.

Well, one, because I don't want people to be freaked out that they're just going to suddenly be possessed.

I am not surprised that I did get to a point where I truly believe I was possessed.

But that's not surprising because I'd spent years in active rebellion against God, sinning against him and desiring, begging these entities to use my body like I was living in sin.

And it's not surprising that it got to that point given my lifestyle and my beliefs.

But what these entities were teaching me was very specific.

It was contrast.

Contrast is good.

You need darkness to know the light.

You need to do wrong to feel right.

All these ways that ultimately, is Genesis 3 the same line.

In the garden, if you eat from the tree, the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you'll be like God.

So it was, if you embrace darkness and light, white and black, good and bad, then you'll gain true power because there's power in both.

And then you'll be like God over and over again.

That was a teaching.

That was a teaching.

And I thought it was so noble.

But a clear way to know that, okay, this is clearly demonic.

Is looking at.

Is what is being taught pointing to Christ as it pointing to biblical truth?

Absolutely not.

In my case, it was leading me further and further away from that until I finally just identified as a pagan.

So that was what I was going through.

Satan disguised as an angel of light.

He doesn't come and tell you just to do evil.

You know, he's like, yeah, do some good too, but definitely do some evil.

Yeah.

You know, and that evil isn't evil.

It's just part of a spectrum.

All is good, all is necessary.

But this is just one side that needs to be embraced as part.

As part of it.

So it didn't sound bad.

I would have never said that what I was doing was evil in the biblical sense.

I thought it was noble and right.

Which is terrifying how deceived you can get when you just run headlong away from biblical truth.

Yeah, man.

I'm sure we could talk for hours and hours and hours about all the different aspects of all the bad stuff you did.

But let's get to the good part.

How were you set free from.

From this?

Yes.

So I was in the.

That order.

They practiced something called Kabbalah, which uses, long story short, the Bible.

Out of context.

They were saying Bible verses and initiation rituals.

We were using loosely, Bible verses, names of God in rituals.

And so I just kept thinking, no matter where I go, someone's using the Bible and trying to, like, get power out of it.

So there has to be something to this Bible.

So I started reading the Bible, and I honestly thought of it.

I'd read the Bhagavad Gita with all its commentary, which is a Hindu text.

I'd read so many texts, and I just thought, this is just another one.

But as I was reading the Bible, I read that you can tell a tree by its fruit.

I didn't really know what that meant, but I knew that my fruit was really bad.

I knew that the fruit of the highest up in the order that I was in, they didn't have peace.

They hadn't found the answer.

They were just as depraved as me.

As much as I cared about them, it was clear.

And that really concerned me because I was thinking, how can this be a good tree when the fruit is clearly not good?

And then I read that Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

And that shocked me because I had never heard that.

The whole time I was in this, I thought Satan was behind what I was doing.

But I just kept thinking, I want to find out for myself.

I don't know, making excuses for my sin.

And to read that when I thought I was doing light work and it was appearing as light, it just pierced me.

No, Satan is behind what I'm doing.

But I was so prideful in my practice.

I didn't know who I was, apart from these beliefs that I just didn't turn.

And then one day in my apartment, I remembered Genesis 3, the lie that led to the fall, that if you eat from the tree, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, you'll be like God, knowing good and evil.

It just hit me so squarely in the heart that that is exactly the lie.

That's the grand secret.

And it was a lie.

And it led to the fall, and.

And it's going to lead to the fall and destruction in my life.

And it's Satan that's telling the lie.

And you would think that I would turn, but I was truly.

I was just so prideful and I was so identified in this that I didn't know what would be left if you took it out of me.

And so I just continued in this occult order.

And then one night, I was in my apartment, it was just like any other night, and I was walking across my studio apartment, and I was spiritually attacked, which we can get into later.

The alien, the abduction, the wild things that were happening.

So it wasn't surprising that I was spiritually attacked in this way.

But I had no strength and no power, and I collapsed to my knees Completely weak.

And I heard myself cry out, jesus Christ, save me.

And I meant it.

And in that moment, just like that, I. I had the peace inside that I'd been searching for my whole life.

And I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, who had saved me just like that, from the darkness that I thought was so powerful, it was nothing compared to this God.

And I was shaking because I had opened my Bible here and there and read that sorcery is an abomination, and those who practice it are an abomination, and different texts.

I just kept opening to texts, talking about my sinful practices.

And I'd think, oh, no, that, you know, that can't be right.

I knew in that moment, God is right and I am wrong.

And so I was shaken like a leaf, and I crawled over to my bed, and under it was a Bible.

And I started reading it starting in Genesis.

And I just was hungry.

And for the first time, I felt like I was actually being fed and satisfied, I should say.

You know, before this, I'd randomly turn on the radio and it would be something biblical.

And one time I was like, what is this?

This is the truth.

And then I found out it was a pastor, I'm assuming, preaching the Gospel.

And I was so confused.

Like, how is this Christianity?

My grandpa came out of nowhere and shared John 14:6, that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him.

I was so mad, but God used that.

So all these ways that the Lord had been planting seeds, seeds of the Gospel before that moment to.

In that moment, I was like, I'm wrong.

God's right.

But as I was reading the Bible, it actually fed me, whereas everything else left me emptier and hungrier.

And I was just so amazed at the personal relationship with the Lord.

As I was reading, I got to a point where I realized I can get sober because it's not me, it's the Lord strengthening me.

And in some of the hardest.

I mean, I'd been an addict for eight years at that point.

I didn't even know what it felt like to be sober.

And I didn't want to know.

And to know that the Lord was with me.

And then in those experiences of pure pain, crying out to the Lord in prayer, opening my Bible.

And it just him speaking to me so personally through His Word.

There's nothing like that.

There's nothing like Christ in the world.

And something that amazed me, that stood out to me is in all the religions that I had sought and read, and there was no forgiveness, there was no salvation.

And so to really get to know Christ, not as a way taught in the occult, where you have to be Christ, you have to be your own Savior, but that Christ paid for my sin on the cross, bearing the wrath that I deserve in my place, that God loved the world so much that he would send his only Son to do that, and that Jesus would.

The power of Christ.

I love Ephesians, one that says that he's far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that's named not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

Like learning who Christ truly is.

I mean, there's.

You won't find anything like the gospel or like Christ anywhere in the world.

And if you bundled up all the wisdom of the world together, it would look like trash in comparison to who Christ truly is.

Man, you're different now.

Amen.

Praise the Lord.

Yeah.

The life you just described, your past is the current life of so many people I run into at the beach or at the park.

And this is such a. I mean, as much as people talk about established religions, Mormonism, Islam, you know, all these different things, the reality is, from what I see, the average kid who's grown up just watching tv, listening to his music, and they're going to be far more susceptible to this kind of thinking because your average kid doesn't have a parent who takes them to any kind of religious anything these days.

And what you're describing is just so common, and we only have a little bit of time left.

But one question I want to ask.

And when you hear this question, you're going to be like, oh, man, this could be two podcasts.

But very basic.

What's something that would be good for a Christian to know when they're speaking to someone coming from that worldview?

Yes.

I will always start with saying, so many people reached out, as though there's some, like, for lack of better words, magic thing.

And it wasn't some, you know, really wise or really someone who really knew the occult or anything like that, that God used to really pierce me.

It was someone sharing the gospel.

It was someone sharing the truth of God's word unwaveringly in the moment.

I was so mad, I vowed to never talk to my grandpa again.

I was shaking, but it didn't matter because God pierced me so deeply that as I was going on in my life, practicing magic, it was just echoing in me, and I couldn't let it go.

So just remembering, if you just sharing the gospel, just sharing what God has said, God uses that whether you see it in the movie or not.

And then I love what you do.

It's so important to ask questions.

What do you mean by that when you say Jesus Christ, what do you mean?

What is your understanding?

Because I, on the outside, even watching old videos of myself, which I have a million, because I was so isolated and just reported social media, yes, I could have maybe passed as a Christian even in my darkest moments, because I used words like Holy Spirit and Jesus and Christ and things like that, but my definitions were completely different.

So the importance of having those conversations, asking questions, getting to the bottom of when they say these things, what.

What are they actually believing?

That's a great point.

So many of the people I talk to in any kind of different religion, they'll have respect for Jesus in some way and they'll even say, well, we need to follow Jesus, we need to follow his example.

But, but it can mean a million different things in someone with your worldview background.

It often means the Christ consciousness.

Right.

Give me a definition of what that term is, the Christ consciousness.

Yeah.

Well, I believe that basically Christ Jesus was a person who tapped into a Christ consciousness that is this powerful thing, but we also all can tap into that.

So Jesus was just teaching us how to tap into this higher state of consciousness called Christ consciousness that we can all attain to.

Again, you can be like God.

And so it's not the person and work of Jesus Christ as the.

As God incarnate.

It's this power that you can harness or in what I was taught in the occult is Christ is more of a type for you to become.

So the same idea of, of, of.

It's just a symbol.

Yeah.

This is what you want to be when you grow up.

Right.

You want to be like Jesus in some way.

And that's definitely a common factor with any kind of false religion.

They're going to talk good about Jesus, they're going to have respect for him, but they're going to be very wrong on him.

Just the other day, I'm talking to a Mormon and he was telling me that he believes in Christ, he has faith in Christ.

And I asked him if his Christ was the one who has a moment and a dad and they're both gods living in heaven.

And he didn't want to answer that because he knows that that's what they believe and that it's different than the Bible, you know.

So, yeah, very, very important to ask questions and have people Define what they're talking about.

If somebody wants to hear more about you, I know you have a podcast and you're going to have a book and you got all kinds of stuff.

Where's the best place that someone can learn more about you and hear more of your content?

Thank you.

I make videos on YouTube, Lord willing.

More now talking about, you know, my past experiences and opening the Bible to talk about them and show how they are just pure darkness.

My Instagram is jackmarino chen as well and I have we have 37 episodes on new Age to New Heart, which is a podcast that I've done with Doreen for Virtue and Jen Niza.

Jenny is an ex psychic.

Doreen Virtue is an ex new age guru and we address a ton of those more New age topics there.

That's a great podcast.

I love listening to your guys.

Thank you.

Stories and past experiences and just so much insight again and how to how to address a lot of these things.

Well, Jack, thank you so much for coming on the show and man, best wishes with your book.

I'll be I'll be reading it when it to comes.

Really looking forward to it.

Thank you so much.

All right, God bless you.

You too.

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