Heather Shannon (00:01.589)
Hello, my friends. We're back with another guest episode this week. And I'm very excited to talk about high achieving women and how amazing we are generally speaking, and yet how that can be a struggle in the bedroom and with pleasure. So to help us talk about this, have a naturopathic doctor, author, certified coercive control clinician. We'll find out what that means.
And Dominatrix trained pleasure strategist, Dr. Jordan Wiggin. So welcome, Jordan. Thank you for being with
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (00:34.918)
Thank you for having me, Heather.
Heather Shannon (00:36.613)
Yeah, this is such an important topic. I was telling you before we hit record that I have, you know, my free quiz and I have the five patterns people commonly are falling into when they're stuck in a sex rut and one of them is burnout and I feel like that dovetails so well with your work.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (00:54.35)
It does. that's as a naturopathic doctor for the last 13 years, I was dealing with many high achieving women that were burnt out. And I realized that they had this, what I call the pleasure problem. And I wrote my first book, The Pink Canary, about that, which, yeah, and that was that was in 2019. Exactly.
Heather Shannon (01:06.485)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (01:18.609)
Is that like the canary in the fall line?
Okay, I like.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:23.17)
But it's our low libido and when we lose desire and that aliveness, it's a warning sign for other health problems to come. And it's just really this missing area in women's health. And it wasn't addressed or talked about. We've done, but see, we've come a long way since then. Because even...
Heather Shannon (01:32.735)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (01:46.494)
Okay.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:47.476)
Even Goop did a Netflix documentary about pleasure since I published The Pink Diner. I feel even on social media talking about hormones, women's health, desire, we've come such a long way since then, which is why I'm writing the sequel currently, because we need an update.
Heather Shannon (01:52.351)
I know, I like that, yeah.
Heather Shannon (02:11.486)
that. So tell us a little bit about like who is it that you work with because you've mentioned super traits and I want to hear more about that.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (02:19.608)
So great question, because I was digging deeper into why are these women burnt out? is this so, you know, why do they keep finding themselves in these similar ruts and ruts that a vacation doesn't fix ruts that delegating doesn't, you know, they do all the things and they're still like, what?
Heather Shannon (02:22.664)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (02:37.767)
Yeah!
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (02:48.248)
the hell Jordan, I'm like, I'm not better. It was a bandaid fix. So super traits are the qualities that make you exceptional. So it's empathy, loyalty, responsibility, tolerance, forgiveness, hard work. And they're survival strategies that we developed in childhood. And they make us very, very exceptional.
Heather Shannon (02:50.27)
That's.
Yes!
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (03:18.296)
So the women that I work with have these super traits and I have a free quiz. I'll share it with your audience to determine if the listeners have them. We love the quiz, probably because you have super traits as well. They make us really excel at certain areas in life, but when they are overused, this brilliance, it keeps us in this
Heather Shannon (03:22.731)
fine. Okay.
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (03:47.084)
survival mode where we're scanning, we're soothing, managing, performing, holding the emotional weight of the room and our relationships very hyper vigilant. So when we're the ones managing everything, our nervous systems like we're in that survival mode that fight, flight, fawn, freeze, or burnout. And our nervous system
Heather Shannon (03:53.705)
Yes.
hyperventilating.
less.
Heather Shannon (04:03.518)
Mm-hmm.
Heather Shannon (04:11.828)
Yep.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (04:16.074)
stops prioritizing pleasure. And they've actually done MRIs on the brain. Pleasure centers are turned off when we are stressed out. So that was Pink Canary. That was kind of like my first book. And then now, your listeners get the update. So when we've been rewarded our whole life for being
Heather Shannon (04:27.144)
Yep. OK. OK.
Heather Shannon (04:36.424)
See ya!
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (04:43.82)
the strong one, the one people can go to because we're so empathetic. We're rewarded for these super traits. We're promoted. We have degrees because of these super traits. But when it comes to intimacy and connection, it actually really disrupts the fabric of relationships. And we end up shut down, burnt out, and really struggling.
with sex, intimacy and, and really relationships of all kinds. I've noticed that it transcends just bedroom, but it's our, it's our friendships. It's with our children. It's with employees, coworkers that that's these unhealed super traits when they're over, we're always over giving hypervigilant.
Heather Shannon (05:20.67)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather Shannon (05:25.928)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (05:38.357)
Mm This is I'm so glad that you've like made this specific connection and kind of like called it out so that we can like zoom in on it because this is basically who I work with as well. You know, and I see these patterns. And and I think a lot of people don't yet realize, it's the same kind of strengths that I have.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (06:00.724)
Yeah, and the strengths that get us success in certain avenues of our lives are the strengths that completely disrupt intimacy. So it's really hard for my clients initially to connect those two because, you know, being the strong one, being the one who people come to when things are going down because you've got the solutions, right? But then by the reverse of that,
We're always on, we're always performing. We're not being relational. We're kind of the fixer, the manager. And then we're sitting there wondering why our desire shuts down, but really we're running our partnerships or our families like little businesses, like we're the CEOs of.
Heather Shannon (06:53.564)
You
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (06:57.022)
it's not really erotic.
Heather Shannon (07:00.534)
I mean, yeah, that doesn't sound very erotic.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (07:03.36)
And I mean, maybe it's your thing, right? Like some people love that mommy dom thing and like love that for you if that's your thing. also, no, yeah, then stop listening because what I'm talking about is not for you. I'm talking to the women that are like, you know, successful, on, driven, managing everything. And then they're also like, why are these people not stepping up?
Heather Shannon (07:09.308)
Right, when you go eat this. Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (07:32.32)
You know, like they, they want that partner. They want somebody to co-regulate with them to, you know, lead with them. But also sometimes we're so hyper vigilant that we have trouble letting go of the reins, creating that space to let somebody step into.
Heather Shannon (07:36.637)
Yes!
Heather Shannon (07:56.405)
I'm so glad, again, so glad we're talking about this because I feel like it's also tricky if you start putting boundaries in place, even if maybe you've realized this pattern, because we have a lot of pretty self-aware people that listen to the show. like, so maybe they're like, oh, I don't have this pattern, I have to set boundaries. But then sometimes I think what can happen with that, and I'm curious if you've seen this in your work too, is like then you accidentally push people away because you become so guarded.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (08:21.304)
So yeah, we obviously do have very similar clients and work. So I totally see that.
Heather Shannon (08:25.524)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (08:32.43)
And initially, I think that is sort of a step on the path if we are guarded. We've, you know, it's just as necessary thing, but.
Heather Shannon (08:38.418)
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (08:46.314)
And the way that I look at it when I look at it through this super trait lens is
Because we learned these skills and they were skills to keep us safe because maybe we had parents that weren't emotionally available or struggled with mental health or had addictions and we became that, right, tolerant, forgiving, of less parentified child at a young age to stay safe, to have love. And so,
Heather Shannon (09:03.796)
Thank
Heather Shannon (09:13.17)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (09:19.22)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (09:22.69)
The real issue is not even in boundary setting. It's that we have to learn that over giving and hypervigilance isn't love and isn't connection in the first place. That it's just these survival mechanisms that we learned at a young age and we think it's being loving, but then when we stop taking those, so for example,
fixing. Okay, a lot of the high achievers that I work with, and this is men, women, doesn't matter. But if somebody comes to us, they had a hard day, something went wrong, they were let down. And they really just want to be heard. Right? They really just want space held for them. A high achiever, somebody with super traits, we're, we're fixing that problem, right?
Heather Shannon (10:10.066)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (10:17.799)
You
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (10:18.702)
We're bypassing the emotional connection, the vulnerability part, and we're headed straight to solution. And we think we're helping and we're very intelligent. We're very aware. Usually the solution that my clients are coming up with, it's a great one. They're right.
Heather Shannon (10:40.436)
Pretty good.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (10:46.434)
Being right is destroying the connection. Or, for example, my clients learned, right, to be like, you know, we're hardworking, we don't need much, we've got this on our own, and that having really big emotions or feelings, that's okay for everybody else, but it's not okay for us. So we're only showing the parts of ourselves that we feel will be
received and accepted.
Heather Shannon (11:18.708)
Yes, it's like our identity has become like the strong one and there's kind of this belief. It's like, well, I can just carry more than other people can. I might know a little bit about this personally.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (11:27.102)
Exactly. And that's what I call what I call tolerance. And it sounds like you might be speaking from a little bit of experience. And this, you know, okay, well, we've worked on that, right? We've worked on our perfectionism, we've worked on our boundaries, we've worked on all these things, but it doesn't actually hook up until we get to the root that's deeper.
Heather Shannon (11:38.642)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (11:56.876)
which is if women with super traits that are in this state of hypervigilance, they're in this state of burnout, it's not really a sex problem or it's not really a relationship problem, it's a safety problem.
And that was from learned at a very, very young age. So to stay safe and it's our bodies protecting us. And that's when it's like no amount of sex tips, no amount of communication skills is going to fix that. And it's safety in ourselves first and safety in the relationship.
Heather Shannon (12:29.668)
yeah. Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (12:44.718)
But if we're focused on managing our partner's comfort, fixing, doing, if we're on all the time, we can't open, we can't soften, we don't get turned on to the extent that we're capable of getting turned on when we feel emotionally safe, attuned to, met. But.
those pleasure centers in our brain. I've, that's the pink canary was about the brain, but I've also expanded it to pleasure centers in our heart and our pelvic floor root chakra. And we kind of need all three on and functioning to have the intimate connection that we want in and out of the bedroom.
Heather Shannon (13:24.884)
Okay.
Yes.
Heather Shannon (13:38.409)
Yeah.
Yeah, this is I think everything you said makes so much sense. And it's just like this this pattern of a group of people where, you know, we've all had some similar experiences. And I think the examples you gave of the childhood makes sense. And I think sometimes we don't always realize it because it might be like, our parents loved us. We knew that we were. It's like, yes, but that doesn't mean that they like met all your emotional needs. You know, I also wonder, do you think there's much overlap with this and being like a highly
sensitive person.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (14:12.268)
Definitely. That's an empathy is one of the super traits and
Heather Shannon (14:13.428)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (14:21.376)
again, it was learned at a young age to stay safe and to get our needs met, to get love. And as kids, we're smart. We don't have we're like sponges. We don't have the ability to to know what's going on or the language of what's going on. That's for us to deal with when we're adults, when we're working with therapists and coaches. But
Heather Shannon (14:36.668)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (14:46.419)
No.
Bye now.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (14:52.46)
those by being so sensitive, by being so empathetic, were attuned to everyone, sometimes before they're even attuned to themselves, but were out of the equation. That's when it sets up a power dynamic that's off. So if we're always in that role of
Heather Shannon (15:04.434)
Yes.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (15:19.712)
our attention's out, we're scanning for everybody else, we're wondering, you know, should I should I say this? Did they have a hard day? You know, we're worried about everyone else's moods and feeling and how it's going to land. So energetically, our focus is out, and we've erased ourselves from the equation. And again, so that like, we're doing it with a good intention to be very empathetic to be very
sensitive and attuned to other people's feelings and needs. But if we don't know how to put ourselves in the equation, then it's not intimacy. So we've erased ourselves, but then we're mad that no one's there. We're upset. We're feeling lonely. We're feeling resentful that it's like, well, what about me and my needs? Look at all I do for you. But we don't have the skills to put
Heather Shannon (16:06.228)
Okay. Right. Yes.
Heather Shannon (16:13.203)
Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (16:18.25)
ourselves, our feelings, our vulnerability, our surrender in the equation.
Heather Shannon (16:25.502)
Can you say more about the root of this in childhood? I get what you're saying, I think, with safety. can you break that? Because it's not necessarily physical safety, right? Can you say more about a
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (16:37.582)
No, safety. So I believe that we're all on this planet. Like we want to be, I mean, besides having our basic needs met, but we want to be seen and loved and accepted for who we are. And many of us had parents in childhood that weren't capable, they didn't have those skills and maybe they tried. And I think
things have changed a lot in like, even if we look at in a heterosexual relationship, what's considered, you know, with gender roles, like it's, need to, we're totally redefining everything right now, or we should be, because what we're doing was not working. But there was this time when it meant like, you know,
Heather Shannon (17:27.753)
Yeah.
stress.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (17:34.882)
a man could go to work and bring home a paycheck and that was his contribution to the relationship, right? And now things are completely different. And it's, I think also the same with parenting. Meeting a child's emotional needs decades ago wasn't, it wasn't a part of the job description of a parent. It was just, you know,
Heather Shannon (17:39.636)
Right. Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (18:01.678)
Is there food on the table roof over their head? And a lot of parents thought that good parenting meant if somebody was crying or had an emotional need, it meant saying like, shut up, pull up your socks. The the sun's gonna come up tomorrow. I heard I heard that one a couple times. So but exactly. So we internalize like it's not safe to feel.
Heather Shannon (18:04.723)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (18:22.996)
done.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (18:28.876)
and our parents didn't have the skills or majority of parents didn't have the skills. And I say that it wasn't part of the job description because I don't even think it was an intentional, like it wasn't done intentionally to harm children.
Heather Shannon (18:47.164)
No, I think what you're saying makes sense. like therapy wasn't really a thing. I know when my parents were growing up, the dynamic was children are to be seen and not heard is how they grew up. So I was like, interesting.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (18:47.469)
But we.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (19:00.166)
Exactly. So this whole concept of emotional needs being met, wasn't even a thing. So learning that part of relationality and how to connect with people, it wasn't there. many, and I work with majority women, but
Heather Shannon (19:21.555)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (19:29.068)
those high achieving women with super traits, they learn to do the emotional management for their parents to feel safe and to feel loved. Their parents weren't doing it for them.
Heather Shannon (19:44.105)
Yes, I think that makes so much sense. And then you become the parentified child. And then you probably, I think like you said, it does spill over to other relationships. So I've also found myself overperforming in friendships in the past too. And having that reflected back to me by my own coach.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (19:58.51)
Yeah, I know I literally had a client message me yesterday and going through a rough patch in her marriage where she's looked at her super traits, realized they don't serve her. And they're they're sort of redefining what their relationship looks like sexually and in all the other aspects.
And she's in this messy middle part where she's not sure how it's going to go. And she's not sure that if she stops doing all the over-functioning, is her husband going to step up? But she's doing amazing. she's got, she's, I know, we moved, or she moved and she has sort of two close friends. And she's in a community where a lot of the women don't work, but
Heather Shannon (20:40.916)
Okay, that's so good. We're rooting for her!
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (20:58.572)
She's the primary breadwinner and runs this massive business. And her two friends are kind of the only people in her community that also run businesses and she feels sort of connected to. And she felt the one friend pulling away. So obviously it's very triggering if things are destabilized in her marriage and one of her two close connections also feels off. So I was asking her about it and she's like, well.
Heather Shannon (20:58.621)
Okay.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (21:28.8)
I realized that I was kind of over-functioning in that relationship too. So I didn't like make the plans. I didn't confirm the plans. did. So she was showing up in that relationship differently and then kind of feeling the effects of it. And it's, and she was just said to me, she's like, you know, sometimes she's like, I wish that.
I could go back and not know this, also I know that everything that she's in it in the middle. But she said, she's like, realize how much I've done this for my kids, for friends, for in every aspect and just, you know, how it leads to that burnout, that exhaustion. And you're never.
Heather Shannon (21:57.684)
you
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (22:24.366)
Like you can never be fulfilled, because you're always over giving.
Heather Shannon (22:31.698)
Yeah, I think what you're saying is so real. It's like easy to talk about, you know, well, just change this, this, this, and then you'll feel better. it's like, yes, the messy middle is like painful. And you don't know if the people in your life are going to step up. And if you're going to be able to receive, because what if they're not very good at giving, because they've been using you doing all the work? You know? Like.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (22:51.47)
Well, that's exactly it. And it's and then because of our super traits. So what I've realized is a lot of the people that I work with, they are the over functioners, and their partner is an under functioner. And just that dynamic has worked. So if an under functioner needs to start stepping up, and it's fascinating to watch because some of them are like, thank God I'm
Heather Shannon (23:21.564)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (23:22.06)
I've been I've been waiting for this chance. Like, let me know I'm I want to help you, you know, you've just been so, you know, territorial over all of the doing that I kind of just step back and let you spiral and do your thing. But sometimes there is the turbulence and it Yeah, the mess the messy middle is a is a real thing and
women see their super traits and look at everything, it's usually the discomfort of staying the same is worse than the discomfort of wanting to shift this and have peace and clarity and have truly a partner in life. My cats are here so...
Heather Shannon (24:16.532)
like, okay, there was a dark colored one, there was an orange one like that. So what does it look like for people to in this situation for women in this situation to start receiving? You know, like, how do they how do you learn to receive?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (24:20.043)
Yep.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (24:34.572)
I'm really glad you asked. Well, that's the crux of my work is how do I help women go from high achievers to receivers? Because receiving is truly foreign to a woman with super trades. So really, it's about I've found that the best way to do this from coaching over the last seven years is to turn the pleasure centers back on.
in our brain, in our heart, in our pelvic floor.
But in and that was sort of the basis of my work. But what I was realizing was happening is that you tell a high achiever, you tell a woman with super traits like we need to. We need to get you out of this hyper vigilant state and into this. You know. Relaxed, grounded, turned on state.
Heather Shannon (25:33.544)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (25:37.876)
Yep.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (25:41.92)
and you're giving them steps in how to do so. Well, she goes at it with her high achiever brain, and then it becomes like tasks for pleasure. And that's on the to-do list. And we're very, you know, rigid about it. that was my earlier work. But then now that I've added this lens, and it works for some women, but what I was realizing is that
Heather Shannon (25:53.884)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (26:12.734)
Yeah, and the steps and being formulaic and everything about it is good. But what I realized is that
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (26:24.362)
it only worked when things were going well. And then the minute there was stress or the minute that, you know, there was maybe a disagreement or an unmet emotional need or something was off, then they were right back to the super traits in overdrive, the hypervigilance. So in
they could have pleasure, more pleasure, could create these lives, this relationship with rest and joy and fulfillment, but they did it from their heads and trying to teach them to get into their bodies. But then, so for example, they would have the date night, but then something would happen and they'd get in a fight or they'd
go on this amazing vacation and get triggered and things would digress into the super traits again. So knowing what your super traits are is life changing, in my opinion. So that's why I have that free quiz.
So you can finally understand the patterns that make you a high achiever in love. And even some of the things people are sort of like, you know, I thought this made me a good partner, but really it erodes connection. So.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (28:03.354)
learning what the super trades are is key. Learning a blueprint for pleasure centered relationships. So a lot of education that we get, you know, in medical school in therapy in stuff we see online listening to podcasts, it doesn't address
Heather Shannon (28:06.056)
Yeah
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (28:31.316)
relational dynamics for women with super traits. So giving women a blueprint for relationships that will actually work for them. So identifying kind of where our survival patterns blocked us from having desire and connection and being relational. That part is really
a game changer because then we can see the overall patterns and we can see our, our tendencies or we can see what we need from a partner to feel met and feel safe and be able to relax. And it's oftentimes it's our internal journey first. And that's what learning the super traits is. And then
we can learn to receive instead of carry, instead of over function. Because when connection feels like a job or something that you have to manage, it's the wrong way to approach it. So even if we're adding more pleasure, we're learning to receive, we're learning to be present with sensation, to soften, to all these things that are required to have better.
Heather Shannon (29:36.755)
makes sense.
Heather Shannon (29:44.821)
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (30:00.214)
sex, we also need to make sure that we know, you know.
Heather Shannon (30:10.069)
if you can be self-aware of the pattern.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (30:14.294)
Exactly. the relational, yeah, the patterns for ourselves and the patterns in our relationships, because usually what's going on is the person with super traits is trying to fix and trying to manage a lot of stuff that's not theirs. And when they let that go, and then they have a framework to build something new, that's when I find that it
Heather Shannon (30:21.267)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (30:42.346)
like things really shift for the better. There's usually a messy middle though in between the like the learning of the skills and then the action.
Heather Shannon (30:50.047)
Have a good one.
It is inevitable. I mean, yeah, I also think there's probably that searching for external. Because I think sometimes women in this situation do want to receive. And can be like this chip on your shoulder will like, how come I'm always doing whatever? And how come no one's taking care of me or whatever? yeah, realizing that self-abandonment piece that you kind of mentioned of like, well, I'm actually leaving my universe.
going over to someone else's lane and trying to fix their shit and then no one's in my lane taking care of me.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (31:25.598)
Right. Exactly. Yes, that's, I might, I'd probably say stay in your lane like 20 times a day to clients. Like, whose side of the street are you on right now? Well, yeah, and it well, and that's my whole thing is I don't even think that women with super traits are codependent. That it's the power dynamic. Yeah, I think I have, there's gonna be a whole chapter in my
Heather Shannon (31:38.741)
It's like, hello, codependency.
Heather Shannon (31:48.521)
Heather Shannon (31:55.069)
Okay, well I'm excited!
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (31:55.126)
my new book on that. we could have a whole other episode on codependency and super traits.
Heather Shannon (31:59.476)
Seriously?
Okay, so yeah, so let's talk a little bit more about, you know, shifting. I'm curious, like, do you kind of tackle this with people or recommend that they approach it from, like, the nervous system or just like building in relaxation to their day or, you know, when you describe pleasure centered life, like, what does that look like? What does a pleasure centered life look like? Because that sounds really great.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (32:27.438)
It is. It's in a nutshell, it's pleasure is the, it's the guide. It's pleasure first because we live in this society and we've been taught that, you know, work hard, then play hard, check off all the things on your to-do list and then have sex. But it's never done.
Right? The to-do list is never done. There's always more, exactly, always more work to do. So, and when I say pleasure, I mean pleasure in and out of the bedroom. Pleasure is not just sex, right? It's, you know, am I enjoying my coffee in the morning? Am I seeing the leaves change when I go for a walk? Am I...
Heather Shannon (32:57.107)
No, never. No, and then it's like impossible to
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (33:25.282)
Like, am I present enough in these moments to feel? And I know for myself, I went years, you know, in school, building a women's health clinic. I didn't look at the leaves or enjoy a damn thing. I was just, you know, putting out fires one foot in front of the other. No wonder I was in a sexless marriage. There was just...
Heather Shannon (33:47.422)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (33:54.124)
you know, things to do. And so you're making decisions from a framework of, will this bring me more joy? Will this bring us more fulfillment? So just an example, I have another client that was deciding if they wanted to move.
and another client deciding she works with her husband, do they want to expand their business? And a lot of times we make those decisions like, is this a good investment? Will it make us more money? Right? But with the business expansion, yeah, there's potential for more money, but also your relationship is finally in an amazing place after, you know, almost a divorce.
and you're both have time together, you're both relaxing, you're both enjoying each other. So
Will that decision bring you more pleasure? And maybe it is a yes, right. But for them, it's one of those things that that's what they just worked so hard to get away from. So they had time to be present, they had time to enjoy each other, they had time to do hobbies and things that they wanted to do. So for a while, potentially that it
it's not gonna bring them more pleasure, it's gonna bring them more stress.
Heather Shannon (35:34.196)
Yeah. It's almost like a weird compulsion sometimes where we feel like, well, yeah, I'm going to get this certificate or I'm going enroll in this new advanced degree program or I'm going to grow my business. I have found with hobbies even things that are supposed to be pleasurable, like you said, we can make it a checklist and we can focus so much on improvement that it actually takes the pleasure out of it.
So, guys.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (36:04.366)
Exactly. And it's what I see my clients get to that it's this pleasure ceiling. It's that they're at their receiving capacity. So they're in this point in their marriage that, you know, things are going so well, there's nothing to fix. And from somebody with super traits, like, we're always fixing, we're always hard working. So to be
Heather Shannon (36:24.5)
Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (36:34.2)
to be at this place where life is just good. And that's where all of my clients will get to this point where it's really, really good. There's nothing wrong. then, and it almost looks like an opportunity or something, but it's like, this is a, this is, this is a, not even a test, but a question of how do you want your life to look? How do you want to feel? Right. And,
Heather Shannon (36:38.1)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (36:51.444)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (36:58.549)
Yes. Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (37:03.864)
Sometimes they're creating issue where there is none because they're receiving capacity is so blocked. They're just so used to doing and being hypervigilant and being on that having things be really good for a long time is its own work to do.
Heather Shannon (37:25.383)
It's so fascinating. mean, that's where having a coach is really helpful because I can see people in that situation not even realizing like, wait, I'm falling into my old traps, you know, like, I know.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (37:35.478)
and they jump right back into it and then they're in the same spot and they're like, I don't know what happened. Everything's bad again. Yeah, yeah, because we can see it coming.
Heather Shannon (37:40.91)
Yeah! Yeah!
Heather Shannon (37:47.272)
It's true. It's true. I mean, I also think there's with pleasure, there's, as we're having this conversation, I'm like, there's a lot of forces working against pleasure sometimes, at least in like American culture.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (38:01.902)
I completely agree in North American culture, Western society, none of it is about pleasure. It's about sacrifice and hard work and those are the things that we think that if I do all of that, then I'll have what I desire at the end of the day. I'll have pleasure, I'll have peace at the end of the day and it does not.
Heather Shannon (38:08.403)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (38:16.149)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (38:23.059)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (38:27.411)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (38:30.622)
work like that. That is the biggest gaslight and scam going. Because even even then and not as much anymore, but that was the clients that I worked with for a number of years are the ones that they had checked everything off their list. Like, they, you know, degrees check, house check, family check.
sold the business, retired, check, and then they're miserable. Like, they don't know what to do. So that's the whole thing about pleasure-centered relationships, pleasure-centered life is that sort of the focus of your day. And I work with people that like to work and they like to work hard. So this doesn't mean we're in meadows of wild flowers, like,
Heather Shannon (39:28.277)
you
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (39:29.39)
twirling around all day or anything. Like we like to get shit done and help people and close deals. And like that's, that is pleasure too, but it's one type, right? You know, what does our heart pleasure center want? And we're, we're operating from head a lot.
Heather Shannon (39:42.985)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (39:57.737)
That makes sense.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (39:58.262)
and what we think we should do. So yeah, but checking all the boxes and then thinking that you'll be happy at the end of the day. Scam.
Heather Shannon (40:07.381)
Yeah, it's I mean, it's really like a commitment to an entirely different approach to life. You know, which could be scary. mean, I think it's a little scary. But like, it because we are the delayed gratification people, I think the super trait people, it's kind of like most people suck at delayed gratification, but we have become successful.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (40:15.704)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (40:29.866)
we were masters at it. Yeah. And to the point that a lot of my clients, when they start, when they start shifting things, right. And I have them shifted a little bit, you know, just have, have some time in your calendar every day and like tune in. What do you want to do during that time? which is
Heather Shannon (40:38.932)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (40:52.546)
that's even a little advanced for some women with super traits, because sometimes they need to be very formulaic, right? Like we talked about. So it's getting those, you know, getting to yoga, having the coffee date with a friend and like not canceling it and committing to it and letting everyone else around you deal with the fact that you're gone.
Heather Shannon (41:09.407)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (41:18.476)
Yeah, just having, and then it can turn into you've got just, so for me, I start my day at 10 usually. So I have time in the morning to do things that I wanna do. Well, I've had to get my daughter to school. So then again, it's changed a little bit, like, but I have from school drop off until usually starting at 10. And sometimes I'm at the gym, sometimes I'm reading, you know.
Heather Shannon (41:38.677)
You
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (41:47.006)
maybe it's a self pleasure morning, who knows what's what's on my agenda, but I'm tuning into what my body wants and needs at that time. And that's it's a skill because some people if it's not structured, and they don't know what they're doing, or even to just be or be with themselves. That's, that's a challenge. So it
Heather Shannon (42:05.385)
Yes.
Heather Shannon (42:13.045)
Because there's a level of trust in that, like what you're describing of, I'm going to see and tune in what my body feels. And you have to trust that that's going to be OK. That's going to play out in your life. It isn't going to fall apart doing that.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (42:25.922)
Yeah, and it's that's a little bit about some of what BDSM and coercive control. So I did the I did the so course of control is the like medical like what doctors would do to study about power dynamics. And then when I did a couple dominatrix, yeah, so it's very clinical. But it's about it's the the study of having power over
Heather Shannon (42:34.067)
Yes, please.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (42:55.914)
another. And there's a ton of power dynamics in super women relationships. And it's also something that we don't talk about is kind of like, it doesn't really exist. And then in the BDSM world, because you know, me at with my super traits, I can't just
Heather Shannon (42:57.045)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (43:22.592)
I can't just learn something a little bit. I have to fully learn all of it. I did two dominatrix certifications to understand power and submission, like dominance and submission from a different angle.
Heather Shannon (43:26.469)
You
Heather Shannon (43:42.59)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (43:49.551)
Sorry, one second.
Sorry to your editor, whom I coughed into their ear. it's you, okay.
Heather Shannon (43:57.034)
And it's me. I'm the editor. I just wrote down what time it was. It'll be fine.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (44:03.022)
Okay.
No, that's good. And good for you for editing your own podcast. have no idea.
Heather Shannon (44:10.229)
It's a very good software. didn't do it at the beginning, and then I went through so many editors. And then I was like, I think I just have to do this myself for now. So I use Alitu for the audio only editing, and it's like half an hour. Great.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (44:24.248)
Hmm. I've had an editor since I started podcasting six years ago. So I, yeah. And the AI was not as good. you know what I mean? Like there's, yeah. So it wasn't even an option then, because I zero bandwidth or desire to learn that stuff. But maybe it's a revisit.
Heather Shannon (44:30.933)
are you doing for six years? That's amazing.
Heather Shannon (44:37.683)
No. No.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (44:52.79)
for me if there is tech stuff that can help. anyways.
Where was I?
Heather Shannon (45:01.525)
You were talking about the course of control and how you got the BDSM certifications. And then I was going to ask you about what were your big learnings from doing the course of control in the BDSM?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (45:15.566)
I had zero idea that power dynamics were at play at all times. That you're giving or receiving. And BDSM for me and people, people think of it a lot of times. It's like,
whips and dungeons and 50 shades of gray and what BDSM taught me is about consent and about boundaries as invitations and really how submissives have the power. Like they're the ones that say no at the end of the day.
so just consensual power dynamics is what BDSM is and it's beautiful. And I think the whole world has a lot to learn from that because in heterosexual relationships, marriages, there's a bunch of power dynamics, but it's like contracts that you signed, but you never read.
And then people are miserable. So, but BDSM just kind of brings it all to the surface and it's, it's consensual and it's, it's beautiful. And, and I wanted to understand how as a woman with super traits and so much, you know, perceived power and control, I had it all taken away from me in an abusive relationship.
And it was like, how did this happen? But it happens to many women with super traits. They're actually prone to it. Oftentimes, what I've even realized is what looks like a libido issue or mismatched libido is often a power and control problem. And they have zero idea that they're being like coercibly controlled as the
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (47:42.026)
medical kind of term for it.
but because they're so high functioning, because they're so high achieving, they miss it, their therapists miss it. Yeah, it's wild actually. in my abusive relationship, I probably spent like 50 or 60 grand, therapists, coaching, couples therapy.
Trying to fix the relationship and out of I think five therapists and coaches, one spotted the abuse, one.
Heather Shannon (48:30.293)
He was even willing to go to couples counseling. That's interesting.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (48:35.662)
It's very interesting. And I think I personally think, and it's a part of my bigger mission for everyone to understand what coercive control is and how to search for it. mainly, therapists need this education, doctors need it, frontline workers need, they need to recognize the signs of it because it's actually damaging when they don't.
I had a client who, so she stopped over functioning and realized, because when we're talking about power and control and in all the dynamics of relationship, money is one of them. And her, so again, educated, multiple businesses,
and her husband controlled all the money and she had no idea where it came from, no idea about a whole bunch of other stuff required or asked him like, can we meet with the accountant and you know, they've been married for like 15 years. Let's, you know, I need to know where everything is. Yeah, kids, right? The whole thing. Anyways.
that created some discord in their relationship. She didn't want to have sex. He got violent, her vibrator, broke a table. So this is an extreme situation, but it's one that is very clearly exemplified in women with super traits. When they stop the over-functioning, they ask for accountability, then
Heather Shannon (50:17.204)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (50:34.67)
sometimes the course of control that was hidden because she was an over functioner comes out. And, you know, when she had boundaries and she had a yes and a no, and she was asking for equal power in the financial making decisions, it didn't, it didn't go over well. So once you
learn about course of control, it's very clear to spot it in relationships. And I just personally think that it should be a standard for education for all therapists, for all doctors, because we spend so much time trying to fix things that are not the real root of the problem.
Heather Shannon (51:16.489)
Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (51:30.766)
once therapist and everyone understands what coercive control is, it's very, very clear. Because had I met that first therapist at the beginning, it wouldn't have been years and, you know, now at this point, hundreds of thousands of dollars in court and stuff to try to, you know, protect myself, deal with the issues.
Heather Shannon (51:41.877)
I that you had to.
Heather Shannon (51:59.413)
Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (51:59.466)
of the abusive relationship. Yeah, it should just be standard. It should be absolutely standard. And then as you're creating new relationships and or healing the ones that exist with that pleasure centered framework, yeah, it's quite...
Heather Shannon (52:06.165)
should be.
Heather Shannon (52:21.077)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (52:27.446)
it becomes quite clear if there is coercive control happening. And that should just be a term that everyone knows what it is.
Heather Shannon (52:32.339)
Right.
Heather Shannon (52:37.609)
more people will know after this episode. So that's good. Yeah. Yeah, we have a decent number of people who work in health care or mental health that listen. So when people kind of go through this process with you or in whatever way they're going through it, how does their sex life transform? What are you usually seeing at the beginning? And then what are they usually winding up with in terms of pleasure and sex?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (52:40.694)
Yeah, good. Yeah, great.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (53:05.614)
So yeah, at the beginning there is that they realize that they've generally been having sex for performance or having sex for the other person. So it's very similar, right? What's happening out of the bedroom and in the bedroom, it's kind of a mirror, but they're focused on the other person. And they think what makes them good at sex is that they please the other person. But they're out of the equation, right? They don't feel
fulfilled after necessarily and I do have some women that are the higher drive partner, but they're seeking connection and sex that they're not getting outside, right? So they're you they usually end up feeling empty, whether they're the higher driver, lower drive partner, they feel empty or extracted from after like sex isn't this amazing fulfilling experience, because they don't know what they like and
Heather Shannon (54:02.261)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (54:05.944)
how they wanna be touched and they're worried like, if I say this, am I gonna hurt his feelings? And they're kind of walking on eggshells, right? In and out of the bedroom. So there's this beautiful self-exploration and figuring out what she wants first and then bringing that to the relationship to see if...
Heather Shannon (54:11.647)
Yes.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (54:36.574)
know, to create this new way where her wants and her desires and how she likes to be touched or what she wants to explore is a big part of it. So sometimes there is that messy middle piece where she's doing that work on herself to figure that out. And she kind of doesn't want to engage in sex that's been for somebody else's pleasure.
that whole time. And then usually what ends up happening is the partner is like so on board because she's been inadvertently, you know, putting a lot on him, him to initiate him to decide what happens next, because she didn't know she wasn't in the equation.
more often times than not, once she figures out what she wants, the partner's more than happy to give it to her. the, again, sometimes we've got the...
Heather Shannon (55:41.395)
I mean, you're right, you've got the coercive control people that's not good.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (55:45.482)
Exactly. That it's like they just liked the sex that was for them and they didn't give a shit about her. And that is an option sometimes. So.
Heather Shannon (55:58.026)
Yeah, mean, assuming that's not the case, which hopefully it's not for most people, but I'm sure it is for a lot of people, then it's nice to identify your needs and actually get them met. It's almost like this untapped treasure trove. It's like there's this treasure chest of amazingness, and you kind of just haven't opened it yet.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (56:10.424)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (56:19.254)
and they get to explore that part together, which is kind of this revitalization of the whole relationship.
Heather Shannon (56:27.253)
And then for the people who are and who maybe don't know I think like you said if you don't realize they're in a coercive control relationship and then they start doing some of this work and that becomes very abundantly clear Do you have any words of wisdom for those people?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (56:42.968)
DM me.
Heather Shannon (56:44.123)
Okay.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (56:47.532)
or take my super tric quiz, email me. But in general, we like to jump to conclusions or our super woman brain wants to fix, right? So.
Heather Shannon (56:55.925)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (57:07.756)
there is understanding that has to go on and you need the right support. some someone that is certified in coercive control, couples therapy, relationship, like any, if you are being coercive controlled, you know what, I need to make a quiz just.
Heather Shannon (57:24.201)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (57:35.266)
for that so people can clearly just be like, is this likely coercive control? Yes or no. And anyways, therapy that does not understand coercive control when you are being coercive controlled is harmful. It is damaging. accessing the right support and that's even I have people that
Heather Shannon (57:35.429)
K-Tune.
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (58:00.586)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (58:05.162)
will DM me and they're like nowhere near me or, you know, but I'm referring them to a resource that will at least help. Because like I said, in in my case, you know, accessing therapy and accessing supports, but no one was actually addressing the problem. It was it's harmful, harmful for me.
Heather Shannon (58:12.605)
Yeah. Yes.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (58:34.274)
harmful for my daughter to
Heather Shannon (58:36.757)
if you're changing up the dynamics with someone who's kind of an unsafe person, like that's going to create volatility and that puts everything at risk. Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (58:42.926)
Exactly. Exactly. So and I was at risk, my life was at risk, and many, many therapists missed it. the the correct support, the correct planning all needs to happen. And it also, it also doesn't mean you have to leave necessarily. Like some people think, I'm, you know, I'm out. But if
Heather Shannon (59:10.366)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (59:11.43)
as if you are leaving a course of controller, sometimes it is, yeah, there's like post-separation abuse and considerations that we have to make. So women are at more risk after leaving an abusive relationship than they are in it. So that's why we need people trained in course of control, people trained in.
intimate partner violence, domestic abuse. you know, I'm just, I'm not, the more I'm talking about this piece specifically, I'm not seeing people do the correct referrals. You know, that client that I mentioned whose husband was breaking things and she was scared. Her therapist that she's seen by herself, like as
her therapist for years recommended that she start seeing them as a couple. So first of all, one, unethical, right? If she's been seeing the wife for a number of years and has so much of her side of the story to start treating as a couple. And two, like,
zero safety plan made. It was just like, this is like childhood trauma and wounding. it's like, no, this is a referral. This is a like that you are out of your depth. It needs to be referred. But I'm, I'm not, I'm not seeing that. And that's a big part of my my work in advocacy is that at least
Heather Shannon (01:00:43.187)
Yeah.
Right.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:01:02.718)
if people don't have that training themselves. And I did it in, and it's not anyone's fault, right? We like, I went to school, I have lots of degrees and certifications and nobody taught me to look for this. But yeah, once, and you do harm to women with super traits by not knowing.
Heather Shannon (01:01:08.828)
No.
Heather Shannon (01:01:13.575)
Yeah!
Heather Shannon (01:01:19.177)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:01:31.246)
because you have them over-functioning in situations that actually are not safe.
Heather Shannon (01:01:36.425)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so important. Thank you for just bringing a little bit more light to that. And I definitely think if people are in that situation, they should reach out to you and get some appropriate resources and referrals. Because you're right that that's not something that the average therapist is equipped to handle.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:01:53.922)
Yeah, unless they have like extensive domestic violence.
Heather Shannon (01:01:57.798)
Exactly. Right, but most don't. I mean, I would refer out for something.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:02:00.152)
training but no.
Mm Yeah, and I just think it needs to be a part of people's initial screening when they're taking on new clients. And I mean, I'd personally like to see it be part of everyone's education from the very beginning, but
Heather Shannon (01:02:10.015)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (01:02:21.301)
I mean, we don't even have sex courses. Like, my master's degree, not only do we not have that, we didn't even have a sexuality course. feel like, know, advanced training programs, as much as we sometimes, I think, glorify people who are like experts or authorities and have these advanced degrees, it's like, I feel like we get enough to like not mess people up too much. And then we just get kind of the bare minimum.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:02:43.846)
Yeah, agreed. And then everything that really helps and really makes a difference that we learned after was additional education afterwards. It's true.
Heather Shannon (01:02:54.461)
Yeah, additional education, experience, life experience, you know, is what is going to make someone really good. yeah, so, okay, so back to let's wrap it up a little bit on the sex topic. what do you think are the biggest benefits? So if someone's like, I don't know, this sounds like a lot of work. I'm a super trait woman or maybe my partner is a super trait woman, you know. Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:03:18.968)
I hear that I get that a lot, the men as well. Like it's my wife is a superwoman, help. Help me help her.
Heather Shannon (01:03:24.359)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, let's actually answer that question first. So, like, if your partner is a super trait woman, like, what do you do?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:03:35.832)
Well, this is another lesson of we can't go on someone else's side of the street and fix them, right? I know I've had men buy my program for their wives and it's, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink situation. So, yeah, just being present, attuning to her.
trying to meet her needs. But it's work that she has to do. She has to do that, all the work that we talked about today.
Heather Shannon (01:04:16.229)
is letting her know how you feel affected. So if you're like, hey, I want to do more, you're kind of not letting me, and I'm feeling a certain way about that.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:04:26.038)
Yeah, and you know, I'm even, I'm even realizing that a lot of these conversations about feelings are not like, they end in these loops and both people are triggered. I'm liking a lot of the what's the, what's the desire, like, you know, and just be super direct with an ask so we can know, did this happen?
Heather Shannon (01:04:45.149)
Yeah
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:04:54.614)
yes or no. if you're not feeling like you're helping, contributing, then
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:05:05.422)
do something, you know, or, cause even asking a lot of the times are those conversations will somebody that is in that superwoman brain saying like, what can I do to help? Or, you know, you're just asking her to do more emotional labor. She's stressed out. It's gonna like, you're just, you're worsening the dynamic that you're trying to fix. So, you know,
Heather Shannon (01:05:24.991)
Right.
Heather Shannon (01:05:30.483)
Yeah. That's good advice.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:05:33.598)
Seeing something that you could take off her plate and doing that consistently will probably get you further than trying to talk about it. Because if it's like two people's wounds trying to talk, it's not.
Heather Shannon (01:05:40.948)
yeah, 100%.
Heather Shannon (01:05:46.71)
Yeah, well, right. I think that's the key is like you have to be out of the wounded part to have the conversation go well. if you're kind of realizing, oh, that's actually kind of hard for us to get out of the wounded parts, that's when calling in a coach or a therapist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. But yes, I think.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:05:52.366)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:06:00.079)
Yeah, we need help. That's when you need support, for sure.
Heather Shannon (01:06:06.815)
I just want to emphasize being one of these people myself. It is possible to make progress and to really feel so much more connected to your body. It can take a long time, I think, for the nervous system to kind of like chill the fuck out. I feel like I've been recently doing a bunch of sound baths that have been wonderful for my nervous system, like a little yin yoga stretch and stuff.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:06:29.229)
Mmm.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:06:32.559)
love a sound bath and some yin yoga yeah anything
Heather Shannon (01:06:36.101)
like deeply real. I'm like, this is like deeply relaxing. you know, whatever it is for you, think like finding that. But I think what you said that's so important is it's it's really like a life switch. It's not just like do this, this, this occasionally for an hour or two throughout the week. It's
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:06:53.142)
Yeah, we can't just check a couple, we can just go to a sound bath once a week or twice a week and think it's gonna change our lives. We need to really change our worldview. And the most, like super women, it's what I call women with super traits or super people, really, I do. I work with some men too, but the majority of my clients are women and they are like, they actually are so capable of
Heather Shannon (01:06:57.191)
that.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:07:20.664)
change and of doing things differently because of their super traits. But when they realize that it's like relaxing and letting go and surrendering and being vulnerable and they're like, what? Like, let me leave my superwoman armor on. That's easier.
Heather Shannon (01:07:39.581)
intimacy and a great relationship with your partner once you find a healthy partner if you don't currently have one. And then you're also going to have, you know, sex where you can actually be vulnerable and receive and actually center your own pleasure and then like
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:07:54.446)
Yeah, the sex is amazing and worth it. that would be for me, that would be like, that'd be the main reason why we should be learning to, you know, heal our super traits a little bit. And the other thing is, is you don't have to give up who you are. This that that is who you are. The super traits are always there. They're always you know, people think, oh, if I like, stop, then I'm never going to start again, or like they
Heather Shannon (01:08:00.362)
What the?
Heather Shannon (01:08:19.476)
Yeah.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:08:22.104)
can't get it through their head that, you know, they think that they're gonna lose everything and it's what makes them them and all that. That part's never gonna go away. It's just learning to add that pleasure piece and turn on those pleasure centers. And then that's when life and everything gets really, really good. Best sex, better connected relationships.
Heather Shannon (01:08:44.551)
You
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:08:48.022)
You can still superwoman it whenever you want and it's easier because you're not burnt out.
Heather Shannon (01:08:54.579)
Yeah, the burnout is real. So many people are functioning in the burnout state. And let's just stop doing that, please. It's not nice to ourselves. But yeah, this was such a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Jordan, for being here. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We will link to your quiz in our show notes so people can take the quiz and find out what super traits they have. But if people are just looking to connect with you more, where should they go? Where can they find you?
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:09:20.95)
Instagram at Dr. Jordan Wiggins. And if you take the super, when you take the super trait quiz, send me a DM because there's seven traits and the quiz is set up to only give you your top one, but I'll send you the reports of the others. It's quite eye opening. And I have people that are, they're like, I've never felt so seen before, like called out and seen before.
Heather Shannon (01:09:48.149)
you
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:09:51.086)
yeah, and my podcast, the pleasure principles podcast with Dr. Jordan Wiggins is another great place to go deeper into my work.
Heather Shannon (01:09:51.221)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (01:09:56.106)
Yeah.
Heather Shannon (01:10:04.384)
Amazing. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And we will catch you next week with another episode of The Airface.
Dr. Jordin Wiggins (01:10:09.454)
Thank you for having me.