Speaker: 00:00:05

Sure, thanks.

00:00:05,967 --> 00:00:07,039

So thanks for having me.

00:00:07,039 --> 00:00:08,180

I'm Tessa Eagle.

00:00:08,180 --> 00:00:11,581

I just finished up my PhD at UC Santa Cruz.

00:00:11,581 --> 00:00:16,203

Our department is called Computational Media, but it's really human computer interaction.

00:00:16,203 --> 00:00:20,395

So kind of looking at, you know, how are people interacting with technology?

00:00:20,395 --> 00:00:23,187

How are technologies shaping social interactions?

00:00:23,187 --> 00:00:30,621

And so I came in really interested in digital mental health, and then I kind of got into,

you know, the ADHD and neurodivergent spaces.

00:00:30,621 --> 00:00:31,840

I met Bre.

00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:39,267

and another two other classmates that were looking into lo-fi as a means of getting work

done.

00:00:39,267 --> 00:00:43,463

And we started talking about body doubling and spending time in these spaces.

00:00:43,463 --> 00:00:45,685

It's just something that you kind of naturally learn about.

00:00:45,685 --> 00:00:50,031

And we realized, you know, we've been doing this and someone's going to be studying it.

00:00:50,031 --> 00:00:53,087

So maybe we should do it in a kind of careful way.

00:00:53,087 --> 00:00:56,401

so my name is Lea Brienne Baltaxe- Admony, but I go by Bre.

00:00:56,401 --> 00:00:59,666

I'm a technologist, coming at it more from a technology angle.

00:00:59,666 --> 00:01:05,453

And I graduated and finished my PhD in ethical engineering methods.

00:01:05,855 --> 00:01:11,770

one of my favorite things coming into a PhD program is just getting to talk to so many

people and develop ideas.

00:01:11,770 --> 00:01:15,801

So like one of these idea offshoots was the whole lo-fi

00:01:15,801 --> 00:01:17,981

study girl area.

00:01:18,742 --> 00:01:20,795

and that drew me into the body doubling space.

00:01:20,795 --> 00:01:23,001

You've both mentioned lo-fi.

00:01:23,001 --> 00:01:25,721

Could you explain to me what that actually means?

00:01:25,721 --> 00:01:30,646

Yeah, so have you seen the Lo-Fi study with me videos online?

00:01:30,646 --> 00:01:40,680

There's one in particular is from a channel where it's just an animated loop of a girl

writing on a page and calming music in the background.

00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,463

And we saw that people were really interested in this and like had this running.

00:01:45,821 --> 00:01:49,286

a lot in 2014 and we were interested in why people were using it.

00:01:49,286 --> 00:01:55,863

And we developed this idea people are forming parasocial relationships with this 10 second

animated clip, which is really interesting.

00:01:58,064 --> 00:02:01,110

And why does having another presence help you get things done?

00:02:01,110 --> 00:02:03,778

and then Tessa was interested in body doubling.

00:02:03,778 --> 00:02:06,521

Lo-Fi is really interesting because it's a style of music.

00:02:06,521 --> 00:02:11,377

So you could listen to it on Spotify, but really YouTube is a place that people go to see

it.

00:02:11,377 --> 00:02:13,970

And Lo-Fi Girl is always live.

00:02:13,970 --> 00:02:16,111

there's this constant chat feed.

00:02:16,252 --> 00:02:19,923

And so you can see, other people are typing and talking studying

00:02:19,923 --> 00:02:21,495

And there's all these different channels now.

00:02:21,495 --> 00:02:28,282

Like it started with just the one and now it's like, that you could think of to have a

lo-fi activity doing, there is.

00:02:29,182 --> 00:02:40,412

I've not actually seen those videos, but I'm totally going to go and Google on YouTube I

can see the attraction of it, And certainly working in the entrepreneurial space, you can,

00:02:40,412 --> 00:02:44,674

you know, often be working by yourself in a room for long periods of time.

00:02:44,674 --> 00:02:50,222

What kind of definition did your participants come up with around body doubling then?

00:02:51,104 --> 00:03:00,163

the definition that was generated by the community is having someone in the room or on a

video call or chat in order to accomplish a task or be productive.

00:03:00,163 --> 00:03:03,735

So the second person may be doing a different task or a similar one.

00:03:03,735 --> 00:03:08,307

And it's a form of accountability that helps you stay on task.

00:03:08,579 --> 00:03:16,747

people use it differently and there's, you know, different ways of engaging in body

doubling that I'm sure we'll talk about, but it seems like people are most often, you

00:03:16,747 --> 00:03:28,197

know, using this to complete household chores, like dishes, laundry, cleaning, things that

you don't want to do, like schoolwork, studying, work, reading, writing, self care, really

00:03:28,197 --> 00:03:29,468

just things that

00:03:29,482 --> 00:03:36,791

And one of the things that really piqued my interest is the fact that you'd talked about

this being a community-driven phenomenon, body doubling.

00:03:36,791 --> 00:03:48,212

And so often in psychological spaces, for example, we will research or observe

participants, we will come up with theories and then we will think of interventions and

00:03:48,212 --> 00:03:51,161

deliver those interventions back to a community.

00:03:51,161 --> 00:03:55,202

But this is the community saying to us, hey, this works for us and this is what we do.

00:03:55,202 --> 00:03:56,216

Do you want to come and have a look?

00:03:56,216 --> 00:03:58,950

And how did you get involved with that?

00:03:58,950 --> 00:04:01,764

is it something that you just kind of became aware of?

00:04:01,764 --> 00:04:03,966

Yeah, I think that's totally true.

00:04:03,966 --> 00:04:10,250

in our field as well, we kind of look to subjects to generate knowledge, not as like

having the knowledge themselves.

00:04:10,250 --> 00:04:14,784

And we both identify as neurodivergent.

00:04:14,784 --> 00:04:16,516

So we're already a part of those communities.

00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:18,758

And we are just trying to do the best research that we can.

00:04:18,758 --> 00:04:23,717

how do we want to properly engage with communities and uplift them as knowers and makers?

00:04:23,717 --> 00:04:27,255

And yeah, so it comes along with our own ethos, our own position

00:04:27,255 --> 00:04:34,921

our PhD and our advisor is coming from a disability studies perspective, which has been a

really interesting journey to go on.

00:04:34,921 --> 00:04:40,274

I discovered I was neurodivergent in grad school and everything started to click and make

sense.

00:04:40,334 --> 00:04:43,651

And, you know, I think we mentioned we didn't have we didn't come up with body doubling.

00:04:43,651 --> 00:04:47,987

Like we both use it and see it as something that people are using a lot.

00:04:48,118 --> 00:04:59,227

My research was looking at online communities for ADHD, so it just felt kind of like a

natural progression and a good marrying of, you know, Bree's and Kevin and Lee's work with

00:04:59,227 --> 00:04:59,889

Lo-Fi.

00:04:59,889 --> 00:05:04,783

And we kind of grappled with this a lot of, you know, should we even be doing this in

academia?

00:05:04,783 --> 00:05:12,240

Like the community doesn't need us to legitimize them and their practices, but people are,

already developing technology.

00:05:12,268 --> 00:05:17,208

and platforms around this phenomenon and someone was gonna research it.

00:05:17,548 --> 00:05:29,828

So not that we're automatically qualified to be the ones to do it just because we're

neurodivergent, but I think our lab has really emphasized the importance of care in the

00:05:29,828 --> 00:05:35,788

research process and reflexivity and giving back to the community and really prioritizing

them.

00:05:35,788 --> 00:05:40,759

So we really wanted this work to be, know, forefronting the community.

00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:42,422

I think that really shines through.

00:05:42,422 --> 00:05:50,896

One of the things that I was kind of thinking when I was considering the types of

questions I wanted to ask you is, given that you've spoken to lots of people and your own

00:05:50,896 --> 00:05:56,373

interest in this area, what are the main benefits that you think folk find in body

doubling?

00:05:56,373 --> 00:05:58,465

So that's actually one of the questions that we asked.

00:05:58,465 --> 00:06:04,081

We asked, why do you do this and why do you think it helps separately?

00:06:04,081 --> 00:06:08,525

you mentioned in the beginning, you have worked with people who use it as a form of

accountability.

00:06:08,626 --> 00:06:14,470

We think accountability is part of it, but it's not all of it because you can do

accountability in many ways.

00:06:15,151 --> 00:06:19,736

We talked to people who said that they felt being perceived was part of it.

00:06:19,736 --> 00:06:25,523

So my favorite quote is someone had said that they have to cos- play as a productive

person.

00:06:25,523 --> 00:06:27,985

Body doubling kind of forces them to

00:06:28,551 --> 00:06:37,181

to go through the motions of, my hands are on the keyboard if I'm supposed to be writing

or my, you know, I'm at least walking around, I'm in the right area.

00:06:37,181 --> 00:06:42,066

So accountability plus, you know, getting the basics of starting.

00:06:42,388 --> 00:06:44,149

I think there's a social component of it.

00:06:44,149 --> 00:06:52,235

You don't have to be doing this with someone you know, but it could help if you're doing a

monotonous task that you have someone who you can talk to as you're doing it.

00:06:52,235 --> 00:06:54,677

So I think there's a lot of different factors happening.

00:06:54,677 --> 00:07:05,557

quite interesting isn't it, that whole cosplay type of thing because when I researched

imposter phenomenon there was something around enclothed cognition and when we wear

00:07:05,557 --> 00:07:08,637

clothes that make us feel more confident etc.

00:07:08,637 --> 00:07:18,417

So this is kind of subverting that a little bit and saying I don't need to put clothes on

but actually if I get myself into a space where I perceive myself to be that type of

00:07:18,417 --> 00:07:24,050

person actually it's not even about a uniform, it's about the sense.

00:07:24,050 --> 00:07:25,418

How intriguing.

00:07:25,418 --> 00:07:37,417

Yeah, and I think also like in ADHD realm, getting yourself to do a task, like I just have

to go stand next to the dishwasher or like, you know, go to the general area.

00:07:37,417 --> 00:07:49,048

So I think that initiation is a thing that I personally really struggle with and that, you

know, having someone watch you do the thing, even if they're not actually watching you do

00:07:49,048 --> 00:07:50,700

the thing, it helps me.

00:07:50,767 --> 00:08:01,280

One of the first tips I found when I started interacting with the ADHD community was, you

know, leave your shoes on if you want to be productive, like, or put your shoes on if

00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:01,780

you're home.

00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:05,332

Like, you know, you get home, you take your shoes off, you get into kind of relax mode.

00:08:05,332 --> 00:08:14,595

And so I thought that was very funny and that, you know, spending more time in the space,

I started to learn about, you know, analysis paralysis is a common term in this space of

100

00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:18,690

this loop of kind of avoidance and, you know, not wanting to

101

00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:21,232

engage in a task and so you just get very stuck.

102

00:08:21,232 --> 00:08:26,375

And so, you know, one of the benefits I think can also be reducing the overwhelm about a

task.

103

00:08:26,375 --> 00:08:30,267

Like, Bre and I talked a lot when we were doing this about the stages of doing a task.

104

00:08:30,267 --> 00:08:37,020

Like, there are so many, it's not just, you know, okay, I'll just go do this, which is how

most people think of a task.

105

00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:43,762

But really, you know, there's getting ready to start a task, starting the task, staying on

task, completing the task.

106

00:08:43,762 --> 00:08:45,423

There's a lot of

107

00:08:45,965 --> 00:08:48,837

hurdles for neurodivergent minds.

108

00:08:48,837 --> 00:08:54,372

And, you know, it's interesting because the people that we surveyed, it's not just ADHD.

109

00:08:54,372 --> 00:08:58,026

So mostly people responded and identified with ADHD.

110

00:08:58,026 --> 00:09:05,373

But we had a lot of other like forms of neurodivergence present, which is, I think,

something that's kind of interesting and unique about body doubling.

111

00:09:05,554 --> 00:09:14,711

when you talk about the stages of doing something, my early career I used to do a lot of

training and one of the training exercises we used to do in a train the trainer setting

112

00:09:14,711 --> 00:09:22,775

was to say to somebody write some instructions for making a cup of tea and you'd think

it'd be quite simple you could do it in six steps or less and we actually used to have

113

00:09:22,775 --> 00:09:27,953

competitions because there's about 30 steps in making a cup of tea when you start to

114

00:09:27,953 --> 00:09:34,215

think about it and then you get the analysis paralysis of going how much detail am I

supposed to be going to here

115

00:09:34,215 --> 00:09:43,240

I think there's a lot of our lives and everyday stuff that we just take for granted and

that thing around shoes, it's so obvious isn't it when you think about it

116

00:09:54,198 --> 00:09:50,361

include the stage of making a cup of tea, which is forgetting about it, putting it in the

microwave to warm it up, and then forgetting about it again.

117

00:09:50,361 --> 00:09:52,451

Because that's me every day.

118

00:09:52,451 --> 00:09:53,283

putting

119

00:09:53,283 --> 00:10:05,362

I like the idea of, in your description of body doubling, as a tool to get unstuck and

generate momentum Your research points to the challenges of language around productivity

120

00:10:05,362 --> 00:10:13,698

So productivity is such a loaded concept that I feel like we love talking about,

especially in academia where, you know, that is your worth, right?

121

00:10:13,698 --> 00:10:16,871

Like your productivity, your output, your papers, your grants.

122

00:10:16,871 --> 00:10:25,537

Something we talk about a lot in our lab and, you know, in disability studies is that we

exist in a world that isn't built for us, for neurodivergent and disabled people.

123

00:10:25,537 --> 00:10:30,513

Like our social norms are very much built for neurotypical people.

124

00:10:30,513 --> 00:10:36,800

And this doesn't work with our different ways of thinking and being and our need for

flexibility.

125

00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:44,466

So this can lead to not meeting traditional success metrics like good grades and

promotions.

126

00:10:44,787 --> 00:10:52,795

So we always are thinking a lot about productivity and kind of trying to push back on

norms and timelines.

127

00:10:52,795 --> 00:10:57,038

But it's really interesting talking about it more broadly.

128

00:10:57,111 --> 00:11:06,651

Like I always say, and you know, this is kind of a hot topic post like girl boss era and

you know, side hustle era.

129

00:11:07,112 --> 00:11:12,392

But you know, Devin Price has a really great book called Laziness Does Not Exist.

130

00:11:12,392 --> 00:11:17,213

And it talks about, we don't have to be productive to justify our right to exist.

131

00:11:17,333 --> 00:11:21,653

Like here in the US, health insurance is tied to your employment typically.

132

00:11:21,674 --> 00:11:25,599

So it's like, if you're not employed, you're not worthy of health insurance.

133

00:11:25,599 --> 00:11:32,885

And so we're kind of pushing ourselves, but you're meeting this kind of brick wall of like

the society that isn't built for you.

134

00:11:32,885 --> 00:11:34,967

Like we always feel like we're not doing enough.

135

00:11:34,967 --> 00:11:43,955

And this concept is very much shaped here by, you know, puritanical principles and, know,

a capitalist society where we're only valued for our labor.

136

00:11:43,955 --> 00:11:46,568

And so I think this is a big topic in

137

00:11:46,568 --> 00:11:48,056

know, disability spaces.

138

00:11:48,056 --> 00:11:49,527

It's definitely reinforced, right?

139

00:11:49,527 --> 00:11:55,123

Like you hear like, you're just lazy or like, can't you just get a planner or, you know,

just try harder.

140

00:11:55,123 --> 00:12:02,320

So I think like hearing that again and again and again messes up all of our relationships

with productivity,

141

00:12:03,561 --> 00:12:08,581

I also wanted to highlight, body doubling doesn't need to be just used for productivity

purposes.

142

00:12:08,581 --> 00:12:14,746

We had a lot of people say, really love gaming in the same space as someone who's doing

crafts, right?

143

00:12:14,746 --> 00:12:17,096

I really love doing this for self-care.

144

00:12:17,096 --> 00:12:24,885

It helps me get to sleep on time and get good sleep if I am coordinating with someone or

it helps me brush my teeth.

145

00:12:25,033 --> 00:12:25,881

Mm-hmm.

146

00:12:27,381 --> 00:12:30,668

So maybe some of that momentum is also around motivation.

147

00:12:30,668 --> 00:12:35,867

But I think we have to do a little bit more research into this to figure out why it really

works.

148

00:12:36,041 --> 00:12:47,882

I think the thing that I like around body doubling and the way that it's kind of exposing

some of those narratives around productivity I mean, you alluded to obviously that

149

00:12:47,882 --> 00:12:56,907

capitalist and neoliberal sensibility of women having it all and, you know, there's that

kind of ethos that...

150

00:12:56,907 --> 00:13:07,081

if you work hard then you get results and actually some people work harder than others to

get the same results because it takes them twice as long to get started, get going and

151

00:13:07,081 --> 00:13:10,652

stay motivated and stay on track.

152

00:13:10,652 --> 00:13:15,565

there's some real privilege isn't there in the way that the world of work is set up

153

00:13:15,565 --> 00:13:18,139

you have to keep pushing and pushing and advancing.

154

00:13:18,139 --> 00:13:25,662

But, know, especially like autistic burnout is a phrase that gets discussed a lot in these

spaces, but it's just exhausting.

155

00:13:25,662 --> 00:13:26,692

does that work then?

156

00:13:26,692 --> 00:13:35,659

So I think with my experiences of body doubling, I've used body doubling in an academic

setting around PhD writing.

157

00:13:35,659 --> 00:13:40,254

It's used quite a lot to bring people together, like-minded people into one space.

158

00:13:40,254 --> 00:13:43,227

Writing days, writing is quite difficult to do, isn't it?

159

00:13:43,227 --> 00:13:49,583

Because you just kind of sat there with a blank piece of paper, usually, some results that

you've got to make into 10,000 words.

160

00:13:49,583 --> 00:13:50,797

But also, I've

161

00:13:50,797 --> 00:13:58,664

I see body doubling happening more often than not in virtual spaces and that's where my

research has mostly sat.

162

00:13:58,664 --> 00:14:09,805

I've often wondered how, especially if we think about autism and sensory overload and that

kind of thing, is how helpful is body doubling in that kind of space?

163

00:14:09,805 --> 00:14:16,511

Because it feels a little bit counterproductive or counterintuitive perhaps that you've

got something that could be quite sensory.

164

00:14:16,511 --> 00:14:18,082

How is that helping?

165

00:14:18,434 --> 00:14:26,777

the interplay between masking, getting overstimulated on all this stuff is definitely

something to look into.

166

00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:28,718

I would say that like,

167

00:14:29,665 --> 00:14:36,101

People who deal with these things know themselves the best so they can choose the type of

thing that works the best for them.

168

00:14:36,101 --> 00:14:47,711

You know, being in a coffee shop surrounded by a bunch of noise and people might be

overwhelming, but then like having your own environment and having just a computer screen

169

00:14:47,711 --> 00:14:55,748

with a lo-fi study channel, there's like not a lot of human engagement, but you're still

getting that body doubling.

170

00:14:55,927 --> 00:15:05,038

We definitely saw that people had different preferences, not only for, you know, in

general, I like this, but also for this kind of task, I like this kind of body doubling

171

00:15:05,038 --> 00:15:07,081

for this kind of task, I this kind of body doubling.

172

00:15:07,081 --> 00:15:11,543

So I think it can really be person to person and they could figure out their own

preferences.

173

00:15:11,543 --> 00:15:12,001

174

00:15:12,001 --> 00:15:18,341

I'm excited to have collected all of this so that people can explore the different types

of body doubling that exist.

175

00:15:18,341 --> 00:15:20,580

There's a lot of flexibility in it.

176

00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:31,792

I've kept a watch out on articles and keywords around body doubling and finally yours kind

of popped up I was really excited because it's the kind of area I think there will be

177

00:15:31,792 --> 00:15:41,693

loads of psychological research on this but there's actually very little in your paper you

talk about some related theories that could explain.

178

00:15:41,983 --> 00:15:44,645

how body doubling works.

179

00:15:44,645 --> 00:15:49,338

So for those listeners I've got who are very interested in that, but why, why is this

working?

180

00:15:49,338 --> 00:15:56,544

You'd identified parallel play, mirror neurons, social facilitation and diffuse sociality.

181

00:15:56,544 --> 00:16:01,360

So parallel play is something that we often kind of associate with.

182

00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:02,395

child play.

183

00:16:02,395 --> 00:16:03,617

Is that right?

184

00:16:03,655 --> 00:16:15,461

Yeah, it's typically seen as a stage in the developmental process for children, but it's

something that has gotten more popular as a concept a lot in autistic spaces, but in adult

185

00:16:15,461 --> 00:16:16,941

spaces in general.

186

00:16:16,941 --> 00:16:23,445

think the concept of there's less pressure and you're just kind of in the same room as

each other.

187

00:16:23,445 --> 00:16:26,812

think like Bre was saying, maybe I'm playing a video game and

188

00:16:26,812 --> 00:16:35,271

my friend is crafting, but it's kind of this sense of, companionship and you don't have to

be sitting and staring at each other and talking and you're just in the the presence of

189

00:16:35,271 --> 00:16:37,612

someone who you also enjoy.

190

00:16:37,726 --> 00:16:45,557

Sounds a bit to me like my marriage in the evenings where one of us will be watching TV

and then I'll often get told are you online again?

191

00:16:45,557 --> 00:16:52,812

I'm quite happily sat there not listening to the TV but doing some research around body

doubling or something else.

192

00:16:52,812 --> 00:16:59,517

And then there was mirror neurons and I mean mirror neurons We think this is something

that

193

00:16:59,925 --> 00:17:05,465

allows us to react to other people's emotions.

194

00:17:06,245 --> 00:17:09,185

it's around observation, isn't it?

195

00:17:09,185 --> 00:17:16,025

So when we observe somebody else doing something, then we think it has a mirror effect on

us as an individual.

196

00:17:16,025 --> 00:17:21,485

by the very act of being in a body doubling space, observing someone else doing something

could help you.

197

00:17:21,485 --> 00:17:22,336

Is that it?

198

00:17:22,336 --> 00:17:31,916

Yeah, it's a little bit like we were talking about earlier, where just like, being near

someone that's doing something, even if they're not watching you do something, it helps

199

00:17:31,916 --> 00:17:32,996

you to get started.

200

00:17:32,996 --> 00:17:35,076

It helps you with all these things.

201

00:17:35,076 --> 00:17:43,224

And so all these things are theories that we think probably play into body doubling, but

don't fully describe body doubling on their own.

202

00:17:43,541 --> 00:17:48,828

the social social facilitation was one that I was interested in, I think from a work

perspective.

203

00:17:48,828 --> 00:17:58,839

I think we know that some teams are high performance and work very well together and you

get competition and people facilitate each other's performance.

204

00:17:58,839 --> 00:18:01,362

In traditional work settings you see that a lot.

205

00:18:01,362 --> 00:18:05,986

In the entrepreneurial space, I found it quite intriguing that we've had this

206

00:18:06,204 --> 00:18:10,545

rise in online spaces where people will virtually come together and create.

207

00:18:10,545 --> 00:18:14,746

It's almost a bit like self-selecting your own virtual work team.

208

00:18:14,826 --> 00:18:28,931

And I do wonder if some of that performance enhancement is playing into the success of

body doubling across different communities, not just for neurodivergence, but also just

209

00:18:28,931 --> 00:18:33,562

for anyone who thinks, yes, this will give me bit of edge, you know, I'll get a bit more

done today.

210

00:18:33,661 --> 00:18:39,796

I think that's why, you know, I think it's so common to go to a coffee shop or the

library, even if you're not neurodivergent, right?

211

00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:48,063

You see other people being productive, someone in our survey mentioned it's kind of a

physical reminder of what they feel like they're supposed to be doing.

212

00:18:48,063 --> 00:18:50,875

Or like Bre mentioned earlier, like cosplaying, being productive.

213

00:18:50,875 --> 00:18:54,178

And I think social facilitation is interesting because

214

00:18:54,178 --> 00:19:00,614

it's often working on the same task and it tended to be like more kind of competitive.

215

00:19:00,854 --> 00:19:05,849

Whereas, you know, in co-working or in body doubling, know, it doesn't have to be the same

task.

216

00:19:05,849 --> 00:19:10,704

It doesn't have to be, especially in body doubling, a work-related task.

217

00:19:10,704 --> 00:19:12,286

I find that really interesting.

218

00:19:12,286 --> 00:19:20,201

I was rereading a paper by Robin Dunbar and he's the psychologist who wrote the book about

friends and quality of friendships.

219

00:19:20,201 --> 00:19:24,376

But he referenced something around synchronized tasks.

220

00:19:24,376 --> 00:19:34,392

and how when we synchronise tasks with other people, either through singing or whatever,

it can enhance performance and also pain thresholds.

221

00:19:34,392 --> 00:19:43,556

there's obviously quite a few psychological theories we can kind of draw from when we look

at it, but like you say, it's just kind of going, well, which bits to explore next and

222

00:19:43,556 --> 00:19:44,097

how.

223

00:19:44,097 --> 00:19:47,948

The final one was diffuse sociality.

224

00:19:47,948 --> 00:19:52,534

And I think you've touched on that, but the example is going to a coffee shop.

225

00:19:52,534 --> 00:20:01,838

And it's interesting because you want to be around people, but you either don't want to be

social, like maybe you don't feel like you have the spoons for that, or you don't want to

226

00:20:01,838 --> 00:20:05,789

do it because you know that you won't be productive and you'll get distracted.

227

00:20:05,789 --> 00:20:14,061

Like, I don't know if you've seen, there's a lot of memes of people at their offices and

they either put a note on their door or on their chair and it's like, please do not talk

228

00:20:14,061 --> 00:20:16,143

to me, I am very distractible.

229

00:20:16,143 --> 00:20:23,331

So I think that's kind of, you you're getting that social aspect while also kind of being

in your own little bubble.

230

00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,333

think boundaries have changed quite a lot in the workspace.

231

00:20:26,333 --> 00:20:32,616

Quite often I'm working in flexible spaces with different people, sat next to different

people all the time.

232

00:20:32,616 --> 00:20:34,207

And so I think about this a lot.

233

00:20:34,207 --> 00:20:39,991

And I think, why is it that I dislike sitting in offices less now than I used to?

234

00:20:39,991 --> 00:20:41,641

It's not that I don't like being in an office.

235

00:20:41,641 --> 00:20:44,476

It's perhaps that the office space has changed so much, you know.

236

00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:48,512

you'd developed this space time and mutuality model.

237

00:20:48,512 --> 00:20:50,655

Could you just explain what can we do with that?

238

00:20:50,655 --> 00:20:53,708

How's that going to help us when we're thinking about body doubling?

239

00:20:53,982 --> 00:21:00,275

Yeah, I think we saw all of these different forms of body doubling and how we were like,

okay, how do these all relate to each other?

240

00:21:00,275 --> 00:21:04,768

sometimes you can be in person with someone, sometimes you don't have to be in person.

241

00:21:04,768 --> 00:21:06,878

Sometimes you know the person you're working with.

242

00:21:06,878 --> 00:21:11,111

Sometimes you really want to be in a coffee shop, not know the people that you're working

with so you don't get distracted.

243

00:21:11,111 --> 00:21:12,911

So that's that mutuality bit, right?

244

00:21:12,911 --> 00:21:15,359

Is do you know who you're working with?

245

00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:22,846

And then we have this other part of a graph that we made to map all these things out,

which is space and time, right?

246

00:21:22,846 --> 00:21:28,631

One of the things that we haven't really talked about is you can body double not at the

same time with someone.

247

00:21:28,631 --> 00:21:37,919

So technology kind of helps us out here where there's these videos of, you know, study

with me, work with me, two hour Pomodoro blocks.

248

00:21:38,021 --> 00:21:44,115

where someone's writing at their desk or coding at their desk and you can have that up,

but it's prerecorded.

249

00:21:44,115 --> 00:21:49,416

so that's time aspect of it doesn't have to be happening at the same time, but it also

could be.

250

00:21:49,416 --> 00:21:53,501

You could be on a Zoom with someone at the same time.

251

00:21:53,501 --> 00:21:58,114

And we've seen technologies pop up kind of all over this graph of, or actually,

252

00:21:58,114 --> 00:22:06,632

Most of the technology that we've seen pop up has been not sharing the same space, so

online and also at the same time.

253

00:22:07,253 --> 00:22:09,636

There's YouTube videos which are not at the same time.

254

00:22:09,636 --> 00:22:20,819

But we wanted to have this overly researchy, graphy thing so that technologists and

researchers could look at this and be like, where could I fill in the spaces?

255

00:22:20,819 --> 00:22:21,739

Mm hmm.

256

00:22:22,220 --> 00:22:30,966

It's interesting to like, think going back to what you're saying earlier about, you know,

being online and like, there's sensory preferences, even if you want to do it online.

257

00:22:30,966 --> 00:22:32,487

There's so many ways to do it.

258

00:22:32,487 --> 00:22:41,142

Like Bre said, you know, there's this website called Focusmate, which pairs you with a

stranger and it's one on one and you talk briefly about what you want to get done.

259

00:22:41,142 --> 00:22:45,156

And it can be anything like you could be cleaning your room, you could be writing a

dissertation.

260

00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:56,010

whereas some people on Twitch or TikTok host these live stream body doubling sessions

where it's very much focused on them and then there's people in the chat, but there's less

261

00:22:56,010 --> 00:22:58,164

pressure on you individually.

262

00:22:58,164 --> 00:23:00,467

Yeah, for me, I use both.

263

00:23:01,850 --> 00:23:04,054

But Focusmate for me is like a last resort.

264

00:23:04,054 --> 00:23:10,705

Like I really need to get this thing done and I need someone's webcam pointing at me in

order to do it.

265

00:23:10,705 --> 00:23:13,308

But it definitely does feel like a lot more pressure.

266

00:23:13,966 --> 00:23:25,050

Could I ask you then, suppose, I ask you first Bre, is there anything that you heard or

listened to or observed in this research that you thought, wow, God, I might give that a

267

00:23:25,050 --> 00:23:25,951

go.

268

00:23:25,951 --> 00:23:27,963

Do you do anything differently now?

269

00:23:28,033 --> 00:23:32,973

Oh yeah, I had not heard of Focusmate before we did this, so I did use that.

270

00:23:33,333 --> 00:23:38,913

And then also, you know, we started this project before I started writing my dissertation.

271

00:23:38,933 --> 00:23:42,933

So I think it really shaped the way that I approached writing my dissertation.

272

00:23:43,373 --> 00:23:48,473

You know, I wasn't just relying on, you know, grad student work together.

273

00:23:48,833 --> 00:23:54,274

I called a lot of my friends and family and I was like, hey, do you want to meet up at

their coffee shop and work today?

274

00:23:54,274 --> 00:23:56,986

I realized how much body doubling really does help me.

275

00:23:56,986 --> 00:23:59,147

So that shaped my work life a lot.

276

00:23:59,867 --> 00:24:07,973

And it's great doing research that helps the way that you work and live too and kind of

validates your own process.

277

00:24:07,973 --> 00:24:08,784

So that was great.

278

00:24:08,784 --> 00:24:09,480

Thank you.

279

00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,626

And Tessa,

280

00:24:11,133 --> 00:24:13,284

Yeah, I think it's been interesting how it evolved.

281

00:24:13,284 --> 00:24:16,566

Like, I think you mentioned, you know, your work practices during the pandemic.

282

00:24:16,566 --> 00:24:19,489

And, you know, I was body doubling before I knew about it.

283

00:24:19,489 --> 00:24:27,614

And that's something I think that's super interesting about this work is most of our

respondents didn't have a name for this concept and they learned it while they were taking

284

00:24:27,614 --> 00:24:28,184

our survey.

285

00:24:28,184 --> 00:24:38,823

But, you know, I would not have gone through the pandemic without Discord and, you know,

talking with two of my classmates, like every day we would just get on a chat.

286

00:24:38,823 --> 00:24:42,956

I found out about some new apps, like Bre said, through this research.

287

00:24:42,956 --> 00:24:51,224

There's this app, Forest, on your phone that it's supposed to help you focus and it grows

like a little tree, the less you use your phone.

288

00:24:51,224 --> 00:24:56,401

So it's been fun to experiment and really like find out what works best for you.

289

00:24:57,392 --> 00:25:03,577

We would always laugh while we were doing this process because we're like, we're body

tumbling and we're writing about body tumbling.

290

00:25:03,577 --> 00:25:07,007

I think we said that in the paper too, there's like a footnote maybe.

291

00:25:07,179 --> 00:25:12,954

It kind of takes the reflexivity and positionality to a whole new level doesn't it?

292

00:25:12,954 --> 00:25:13,955

I do like that.

293

00:25:13,955 --> 00:25:15,858

where would you like to take this next?

294

00:25:15,858 --> 00:25:18,909

Yeah, I also would just like to plug Misfit Lab.

295

00:25:18,909 --> 00:25:26,163

think both of us have graduated, but they're still continuing to do a lot of this work,

especially in the neurodiversity space.

296

00:25:26,163 --> 00:25:30,366

So that's Misfit Lab at UCSC, UC Santa Cruz.

297

00:25:30,366 --> 00:25:36,951

But for me personally, you know, I'm transitioning out of academia, so looking to see

what's next.

298

00:25:36,951 --> 00:25:41,297

I'm really thankful to have been a part of this research.

299

00:25:41,823 --> 00:25:47,430

And if I find a job that's continuing to work in neurodiversity and tech, like, amazing.

300

00:25:47,438 --> 00:25:48,600

Job done.

301

00:25:48,683 --> 00:25:53,476

I've had some conversations with startups that are doing work in this space, which had

been interesting.

302

00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:54,586

So I think it'd be cool.

303

00:25:54,586 --> 00:25:59,028

Like, I don't know, maybe we could partner with them or like go present to startups.

304

00:25:59,028 --> 00:26:05,582

But I think you were saying earlier, it'd be interesting to explore, like further explore

the nuances of body doubling, even

305

00:26:05,804 --> 00:26:10,156

I think observing people body doubling might be counterintuitive too.

306

00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:12,396

I don't know, that might be something Kevin is working on.

307

00:26:12,396 --> 00:26:22,019

think Kevin is going to be interviewing people about their work practices and their use of

body doubling, so getting even more direct feedback on that.

308

00:26:22,019 --> 00:26:30,743

But further exploring the nuances, like you said, there's different preferences around

sensory things and modalities.

309

00:26:30,952 --> 00:26:35,803

it'd be cool to say like, this is what we're seeing with ADHD or autism or OCD.

310

00:26:35,803 --> 00:26:37,234

And there's a lot of overlap.

311

00:26:37,234 --> 00:26:43,076

And so I don't know if you can necessarily parse all of that out, but it'd be cool to kind

of explore like what's working for people.

312

00:26:43,076 --> 00:26:45,807

Looking at, you know, situational uses of body doubling.

313

00:26:45,807 --> 00:26:55,550

And I think there's so many interesting ways this could go, not necessarily that we'll be

working on them, like, you know, with VR and AR and, people are developing companion

314

00:26:55,550 --> 00:26:56,162

robots.

315

00:26:56,162 --> 00:26:59,377

It's going to be interesting to see what comes of this.

316

00:26:59,450 --> 00:27:05,273

I think some of my open questions are like, what's the interplay between body doubling and

masking?

317

00:27:05,673 --> 00:27:11,839

And then also, like, what does the physical person need to look like?

318

00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:20,926

Like, if we're seeing people body doubling with a 10 second animated loop, could that just

be a light that pops up when Tess is at her desk and I'm at my desk?

319

00:27:20,926 --> 00:27:22,548

But we're in different spaces.

320

00:27:22,548 --> 00:27:23,768

You know, what

321

00:27:23,906 --> 00:27:28,601

what does that actual interplay look like and can it be technologically mediated?

322

00:27:28,601 --> 00:27:34,806

And I think we have a lot of space to look at on our time space mutuality.

323

00:27:35,817 --> 00:27:40,354

You know, there could be a lot of things developed and that we don't know that exist yet.

324

00:27:40,354 --> 00:27:41,804

I was just talking to someone about that.

325

00:27:41,804 --> 00:27:48,616

I don't know if you've seen these pillows that they like light up when your long distance

partner is like sleeping on them or something.

326

00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:56,139

And I was saying, it'd be nice like, you you can't always find a person to body double

with and there's backups, like there's YouTube, there's Twitch.

327

00:27:56,139 --> 00:28:01,781

But I was telling them, you know, I would love something that sits on my desk and it

lights up like, Breeze Online.

328

00:28:01,781 --> 00:28:05,903

Or, you know, so I think there's a lot of cool ways that this could go.

329

00:28:06,674 --> 00:28:19,720

we're quite used to notifications as a way of kind of prompting or nudging behaviour and I

was thinking there in terms of what you were saying, Bre, in terms of faces and I jumped

330

00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:30,816

to cognition and if I think about masking and emotional regulation then we know that

having the presence of somebody else's face, human to human face, cognition

331

00:28:30,816 --> 00:28:34,057

We know that there's an emotional regulation at play there.

332

00:28:34,057 --> 00:28:40,990

So at what point does that meet a threshold of need versus go over?

333

00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:47,313

And does some people body double to a point at which they're comfortable masking and then

have to like come away from it?

334

00:28:47,313 --> 00:28:58,443

And like you say, I'm really interested in or intrigued certainly from the work I do with

my own clients is what is enough for one person versus what's too much for another?

335

00:28:58,443 --> 00:29:03,767

So I think there's just so much, there's so much here isn't there to kind of explore and

to think about.

336

00:29:03,767 --> 00:29:11,734

And I really wanted to just kind of get you on because it just feels like one of those

topics that we use the word body doubling, but actually, like you say, it's so nuanced,

337

00:29:11,857 --> 00:29:16,011

we have a colleague, Kritika, who's doing some research on masking.

338

00:29:16,011 --> 00:29:24,978

And so I don't know if there will be any interesting connection with this, but that made

me think about, you know, our respondents mostly indicated that they're body doubling with

339

00:29:24,978 --> 00:29:26,559

friends and family.

340

00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:34,259

So I think there could be some interesting interplay there maybe having someone you know

can enable you to kind of like unmask a bit more.

341

00:29:34,259 --> 00:29:42,004

I've just recorded actually, this episode will come in after my first episode on

accountability.

342

00:29:42,004 --> 00:29:49,188

And I was reflecting about a time where I did some long distance running and how myself

and a friend kept each other accountable.

343

00:29:49,188 --> 00:29:57,263

And actually it was a form of body doubling, but I hadn't associated it with being body

doubling, because we were just texting each other all the time and when we started, when

344

00:29:57,263 --> 00:29:57,975

we finished.

345

00:29:57,975 --> 00:30:00,026

But it did make me think that

346

00:30:00,186 --> 00:30:08,919

The presence of social bonds and the quality of that social relationship, and that's what

Robin Dunbar talks about, is the thing that leads to better health for us.

347

00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:13,541

And we know it's better for people to not have to mask because it leads to better health

outcomes.

348

00:30:13,541 --> 00:30:15,562

So yeah, I think it's all related.

349

00:30:15,562 --> 00:30:17,573

It's just knowing how, isn't it?

350

00:30:17,573 --> 00:30:24,805

And that's the psychological query that always comes around is how is this related and

what are the effects?

351

00:30:25,223 --> 00:30:29,135

Well, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.

352

00:30:29,135 --> 00:30:34,058

It's just been wonderful to actually chat with people who've explored this from a

scientific perspective.

353

00:30:34,058 --> 00:30:37,813

And I can't wait to see where the research goes with the lab, et cetera.

354

00:30:37,813 --> 00:30:41,222

I'll put all details in the show notes for anyone who's interested.

355

00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:44,713

And I think your paper is open access.

356

00:30:44,713 --> 00:30:48,305

So I think people can get to that and read it.

357

00:30:48,486 --> 00:30:49,489

Fantastic.

358

00:30:49,489 --> 00:30:50,421

Thanks for having us.

359

00:30:50,421 --> 00:30:52,155

This has been so interesting.

360

00:30:52,155 --> 00:30:53,440

Thank you!