Yeah, to recognize that these are men who face
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challenges that required heroic amounts
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of faithfulness and fidelity and just hard work,
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but at the same time not to elevate
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them up, especially over the one who they're
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giving their testimony to, that's Jesus Christ,
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not to elevate them over the written witness,
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that'd be words of Scripture, particularly
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the New Testament.
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And I think that's the best honor that we can
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show them, just kind of keep them in their
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place beneath the lordship of Jesus and to find
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inspiration from them to structure our
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thinking following their footsteps.
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But if we really honor a church
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father, I think we honor Jesus.
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So Kyle, you spent a lot of
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time studying church history.
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You use that to inform some of the classes you
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teach here at Faith Builders.
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You did some work on Irenaeus specifically, and
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over the years we've done a number of
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various episodes on the early church writers and
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things that they taught and so forth.
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But we've also received a lot of feedback from
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listeners in comments and things about
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some of the things we've said about the early
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church fathers and some of it positive, some
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of it saying, "Oh, you're misrepresenting this.
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That's wrong.
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They didn't actually teach
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this or that or whatever."
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So let's start broad and then
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we'll pull it in a little closer.
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But starting broad, how should we go about
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engaging with the writings of the early church?
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Like really broad stroke, give us some
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foundational guidelines.
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While we're talking reading early church
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writings, I'm thinking the
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first few hundred years after
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the time of Christ, you know, the ante-Nicene
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fathers, the patristics.
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What are some things we
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should be keeping in mind?
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Because it feels like we could pretty easily skew
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this different directions based on our
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own opinions and belief systems.
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So talk to me about that.
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Yeah.
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I'd start by saying I'm excited if anybody's
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interested in church history.
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That makes me excited.
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We need more people who are
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interested in church history, I think.
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And the church fathers
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specifically, we're looking at them.
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It's an era of church history in which some of
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the structures hadn't been quite so formalized yet,
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especially as they are
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later on in the Roman Catholic tradition.
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But there's still a need for people to guide, to
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clarify, to kind of offer themselves in
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ways that help the early church, especially
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through some really difficult times when there
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was leadership needed.
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So these are men, the early church fathers, who
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were working and struggling and believing
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in a time when the church was just beginning.
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So that may be a first thing to appreciate about
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them as a guideline, is that they had
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a historical context.
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That is to say that their thinking, their
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thinking was emerging and
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reflecting on historical
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challenges that they were facing, historical
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opportunities that they had.
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So it can be easy to misrepresent an author or a
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church father when we've only partially
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understood them or when we failed to appreciate
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their historical context.
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Another dimension of that is their literary
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context, we'd say, where,
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let's say for Irenaeus,
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he's most known for his, you know, Against the
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Heresies, but he also wrote some other
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things too.
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We've got some letters from him.
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But it's important to read
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as much of it as you can.
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We've got this tendency to proof text where if
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you've already arrived at a conclusion,
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they go, "Well, who can I find to support that?"
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Let's say a church father,
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they seem kind of important.
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We search for a quote from them which seems to
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support our position, and you can kind
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of trot that out, failing to appreciate the
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entirety of the work of that author.
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That's a quick way to kind of misinterpret or
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misconstrue what they had in mind.
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So these are men, they're responding to and
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reflecting on with the very best of their
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resources and the aid of the Holy Spirit
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frequently, the challenges,
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the opportunities that they
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have.
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I'd also, and this may identify me as an
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Anabaptist, they are men.
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So even though they deserve a level of authority
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in our interpretation, they deserve a level
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of authority in our theological reflection, not
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everything about them is whole or complete,
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and even their theological reflection reflects
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some of their personality, their biases, their
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subjects, sometimes even their hang-ups and
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quirks and idiosyncrasies.
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So for me reading them, you can get to know them
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as men who've had a significant shaping
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force on the history of the
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church, and they need to be respected.
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They are the big men in the room.
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You approach a big man in the room, you don't do
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so cavalierly or indifferently, it's worth
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respecting them, but you do recognize after a
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while they got limitations too.
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I think that might be one of the pieces here
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because it is really easy to just say, "Oh,
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what early church father wrote about this and put
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it in an AI search engine or something,
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and it'll pull up, oh, okay, great, that was
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exactly what I'm looking for," and then fail
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to look into the context that they were writing
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within, as a whole, within the church, within
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the culture maybe that they
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were coming from and so forth.
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Yeah, right.
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I think it can be helpful in addition to reading,
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which I would encourage you, read
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the church fathers, but also
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get to know what their context is.
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And for them, they didn't need to talk about that
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because sometimes they're writing epistles,
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sometimes they're writing treatises.
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They understood what the context was and they
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assumed that those receiving their writing
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also understood what that context was.
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We don't because we're
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removed from that historically.
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So taking some time and using some secondary
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materials, in addition to your primary work,
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taking some secondary materials and saying,
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"Okay, what was the situation here?
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What might have prompted him to write this?
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What were the issues that were afloat that which
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could help me understand more clearly
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why it is he's writing these things?"
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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Okay, so we're going to zoom way in now.
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Okay.
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So we're going to zoom way in.
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We did some pieces on infant baptism.
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Not much, just a little bit there.
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And we got a lot of comments about that.
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And different comments, I don't think I'll read the
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whole thing, but basically, they're using
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the case within the New Testament.
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We see everyone converting.
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And so then they get baptized, but when it comes
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to a household, it says they were all
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baptized together.
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Okay, well, that would mean children, infants,
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whatever would be baptized as well.
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He goes on to say John Chrysostom says a lot
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about this, and he very much agreed with it
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talking about infant baptism.
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And he says Irenaeus as well, and so forth.
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And there's more to the quote.
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What do you say to that, to give a specific
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example there of those two church fathers
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that would disagree with what we
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had said in that previous episode?
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The first thing I would say is I think it's okay
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to acknowledge differences.
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I think Chrysostom being an example there, that
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he did promote infant baptism.
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He did.
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So there are some differences there.
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I think the case could be made for Irenaeus.
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I don't think it's quite as strong.
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But to acknowledge that, again, these are humans.
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They're reflecting as best they know how.
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And in contexts which require
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them, of them certain things.
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That's another part that I would
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also suggest if you run across this.
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Frequently these men are
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writing with intent, okay?
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That is to say that they usually write to
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accomplish something, okay?
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And they frequently write not
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just to like describe things.
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They're trying to accomplish something.
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So just as important as asking why did Chrysostom
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seem to condone infant baptism, ask why.
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Why is he doing that?
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Another factor I think I'd put in there, and this
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is just acknowledging a cultural difference,
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is that in their times, in their times, societies
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were much more collectivist.
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So to make an argument based on saying, and
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forgive me for being a little bit cheeky in
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saying their times are a little bit different,
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but I think for the fathers it can apply.
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It was a more collectivist culture.
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You're going to expect baptism to be applied in
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ways that may not be exactly the same as
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what we'd expect in our culture.
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So be careful of the hasty equivocation because
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"in Chrysostom's day he said that, therefore..."
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boom, one to one equivalent,
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that's how things ought to be.
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He might have been being permissive in ways that
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we think he's being declarative.
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You have to be careful of his intent.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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I think it's easy to forget the span of time that
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stands between these writers and us and
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the difference of the world that they lived in.
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It's a cross-cultural experience almost when
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you're reading these guys, because it's a
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different world.
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But isn't it the tendency to say, "Oh, all these
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church fathers agree with our position,
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and so that's great, so
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that verifies what we believe."
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Isn't that the really easy thing to do?
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It's kind of like proof texting, I guess.
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Importantly there, the impulse there that's what
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feels good about that is you are looking
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for consensus among them.
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And when you have a number of human witnesses
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like these church fathers who are offering
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their best testimony and they're saying, "I think
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this is what's right and good.
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This is what we want to embrace," when you see a
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lot of them agreeing about something,
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chances are it's going to be very important.
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Hang on to that.
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Because that's a good way to read, is to look for
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the patterns of consensus.
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And where you find consensus, chances are it's a
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pretty significant issue.
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Same way.
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We say the church fathers as if they're a unified
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voice, they don't all see eye to eye.
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So yeah, you could reach back and say, "I found
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one person who agrees with me, and that
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adds credibility to my position."
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Well, that's possible.
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That's good.
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You also have to be
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looking at the collective voice.
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Another thing that I enjoy or appreciate about
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the church fathers and why I think there's
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enthusiasm for them right now, there's a lot of
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interest in them, is they have a sense
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of scale.
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00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:06,809
Okay.
270
00:12:07,685 --> 00:12:12,940
So sure, yes, they may talk about baptism in ways
271
00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:17,445
which suggest infant baptism, but
272
00:12:17,445 --> 00:12:19,280
they're probably talking about
273
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,657
other things, about formation.
274
00:12:22,283 --> 00:12:24,285
They're going to care about perhaps
275
00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:26,579
discipline formats of church life.
276
00:12:26,579 --> 00:12:29,915
They're going to care about the new creation in
277
00:12:29,915 --> 00:12:31,834
ways that if you're not sensitive, if you're
278
00:12:31,834 --> 00:12:33,919
not aware of everything they write, you say, "Oh
279
00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:36,255
look, he agreed with me on that point."
280
00:12:37,298 --> 00:12:37,381
Okay.
281
00:12:37,965 --> 00:12:40,176
But we have to be willing to also sit down and
282
00:12:40,176 --> 00:12:41,677
listen long enough to say, "But what's
283
00:12:41,677 --> 00:12:42,720
his broader project?"
284
00:12:43,888 --> 00:12:46,015
And have we appreciated the whole?
285
00:12:47,099 --> 00:12:51,145
So for my need, say, to defend infant baptism, I
286
00:12:51,145 --> 00:12:52,646
could say, "I'm going to rally some church
287
00:12:52,646 --> 00:12:56,317
fathers, find places where they agree, ignore the
288
00:12:56,317 --> 00:12:58,819
rest of the scale of their argument, and
289
00:12:59,653 --> 00:13:00,571
I've got it now."
290
00:13:01,655 --> 00:13:02,364
Have we really?
291
00:13:03,199 --> 00:13:07,870
Or are we just being dogmatic and preoccupied
292
00:13:07,870 --> 00:13:09,497
with our own need to be right while actually
293
00:13:09,497 --> 00:13:10,998
silencing them on the matter?
294
00:13:13,209 --> 00:13:16,378
So another example here, just to continue on that
295
00:13:16,378 --> 00:13:19,673
thread, someone else said, "Irenaeus
296
00:13:19,673 --> 00:13:22,426
clearly talks about ordination when he says the
297
00:13:22,426 --> 00:13:24,887
list from this apostle has come to this
298
00:13:24,887 --> 00:13:25,346
person.
299
00:13:25,346 --> 00:13:27,973
He gives a specific apostolic succession, and if
300
00:13:27,973 --> 00:13:29,308
you can't figure that out, I'll pray
301
00:13:29,308 --> 00:13:29,808
for you." Says this person
302
00:13:30,851 --> 00:13:33,062
in their comment, because we had said some
303
00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:34,688
things about, or one of the guests had said
304
00:13:34,688 --> 00:13:36,690
some things about apostolic succession.
305
00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:39,485
Maybe tap on that one a little bit too.
306
00:13:39,693 --> 00:13:40,986
Is this another case study where we
307
00:13:40,986 --> 00:13:43,739
can pull some helpful pieces from?
308
00:13:43,989 --> 00:13:46,742
Well, apostolic succession, it's not an unambiguous
309
00:13:46,742 --> 00:13:50,496
term, meaning that it's freighted with a lot
310
00:13:50,496 --> 00:13:52,456
of different meanings, and depending on what that
311
00:13:52,456 --> 00:13:55,042
commenter means, things would take a
312
00:13:55,042 --> 00:13:55,918
different direction.
313
00:13:55,918 --> 00:13:56,460
So they don't have to
314
00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:58,379
favor of being involved here.
315
00:14:00,130 --> 00:14:03,217
For Irenaeus, it is significant for him that
316
00:14:03,217 --> 00:14:06,887
there's a connection of testimony, of witness,
317
00:14:07,096 --> 00:14:10,015
you might say, back to that original stream.
318
00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:12,101
It's in a lot of ways, and this
319
00:14:12,101 --> 00:14:15,271
is what the apostles recommended.
320
00:14:16,105 --> 00:14:18,232
When John and his communities are facing
321
00:14:18,232 --> 00:14:21,235
challenges, he appeals to
322
00:14:21,235 --> 00:14:24,113
what you've heard, what's been
323
00:14:24,113 --> 00:14:25,030
given to you.
324
00:14:25,531 --> 00:14:28,492
With Paul, it's the tradition to Timothy.
325
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,663
It's staying in continuity with this chain of
326
00:14:32,663 --> 00:14:34,582
witnesses, and that's how the faith is
327
00:14:34,582 --> 00:14:34,999
passed.
328
00:14:37,042 --> 00:14:41,547
So that is an important issue, what it can tend
329
00:14:41,547 --> 00:14:42,965
to mean, apostolic succession.
330
00:14:45,009 --> 00:14:48,512
Later on, after Irenaeus comes to be associated
331
00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:53,392
with a more formalized structure of bishops
332
00:14:54,101 --> 00:14:56,103
and authority, and eventually cardinals, and
333
00:14:56,103 --> 00:14:59,315
eventually a pope, and popes, that kind of
334
00:14:59,398 --> 00:15:03,861
chain down and hand down this authority.
335
00:15:05,529 --> 00:15:08,324
I don't think that that's what Irenaeus is
336
00:15:08,324 --> 00:15:10,367
referring to, because there was no pope.
337
00:15:10,367 --> 00:15:11,285
There was a bishop of Rome.
338
00:15:13,454 --> 00:15:16,790
He seemed to be on pretty good terms with him.
339
00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:20,794
In his career, he had to make some appeals to the
340
00:15:20,794 --> 00:15:21,962
bishop of Rome, because the bishop
341
00:15:22,046 --> 00:15:24,173
of Rome was mistreating some
342
00:15:24,173 --> 00:15:26,133
people from his regions, he felt.
343
00:15:27,176 --> 00:15:30,429
In some ways, it seems like Irenaeus castigates
344
00:15:30,429 --> 00:15:31,639
him a little bit and says, "You're getting
345
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:32,598
a little high here.
346
00:15:33,349 --> 00:15:34,058
Taking a little bit too
347
00:15:34,058 --> 00:15:35,351
much authority to yourself."
348
00:15:36,727 --> 00:15:38,062
He makes it his mission to set
349
00:15:38,062 --> 00:15:39,730
things right, to act on justice.
350
00:15:40,064 --> 00:15:41,649
Something Irenaeus was known for was his
351
00:15:41,649 --> 00:15:43,192
temperance and his sense of justice.
352
00:15:44,401 --> 00:15:47,154
I don't think that's what he's referring to, is
353
00:15:47,154 --> 00:15:49,114
what it comes to mean later on.
354
00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:53,369
It was kind of Roman Catholic idea of apostolic
355
00:15:53,369 --> 00:15:55,954
succession, starting with Peter, and then
356
00:15:55,954 --> 00:15:58,082
there's popes coming after that
357
00:15:58,082 --> 00:16:00,250
line, because it didn't exist for him.
358
00:16:00,834 --> 00:16:05,673
This is a case of saying, when you read this
359
00:16:05,673 --> 00:16:09,259
early church writer, really pay attention
360
00:16:09,259 --> 00:16:11,095
to the context that they're coming from.
361
00:16:11,095 --> 00:16:14,014
Maybe they're using words that we recognize, but
362
00:16:14,014 --> 00:16:16,725
they meant something different 1,800 years
363
00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:20,312
ago than they do in the context we have now.
Yes.
364
00:16:21,188 --> 00:16:21,980
You're making a real strong
365
00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:24,066
argument here for context, is a big deal.
366
00:16:24,608 --> 00:16:27,069
Context and also our own thirst for anachronism.
367
00:16:27,736 --> 00:16:28,779
We can take our context.
368
00:16:29,029 --> 00:16:29,905
Define anachronism.
369
00:16:29,905 --> 00:16:30,739
Yeah, I'll do that.
370
00:16:31,281 --> 00:16:32,199
It's a great word.
371
00:16:32,449 --> 00:16:34,118
Everybody should know anachronism.
372
00:16:35,119 --> 00:16:36,745
It's partly just fun to say.
373
00:16:38,706 --> 00:16:42,918
Anachronism is this kind of undisciplined
374
00:16:42,918 --> 00:16:45,421
approach to history where we just take our
375
00:16:45,421 --> 00:16:51,593
context as being determining what a word or a
376
00:16:51,593 --> 00:16:53,679
phrase means in all contexts.
377
00:16:54,972 --> 00:16:58,100
For that example of apostolic succession, it's
378
00:16:58,100 --> 00:16:59,601
saying, "Well, apostolic succession
379
00:16:59,768 --> 00:17:01,979
meant for Irenaeus what it
380
00:17:01,979 --> 00:17:04,648
means for the Roman Catholic Church."
381
00:17:05,816 --> 00:17:08,736
Whereas in fact, in the Roman Catholic Church,
382
00:17:09,028 --> 00:17:11,780
they've established and they've refined what
383
00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:13,282
that's meant through the years and carried it
384
00:17:13,282 --> 00:17:16,660
forward in a way that may or may not be
385
00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:19,663
recognizable or intended by Irenaeus.
386
00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:23,333
But when you read it back on to him, we're kind
387
00:17:23,333 --> 00:17:25,169
of saddling with him with that and saying,
388
00:17:25,169 --> 00:17:26,170
"This is what you meant."
389
00:17:26,837 --> 00:17:27,629
In fact, it might be
390
00:17:27,629 --> 00:17:28,714
something somewhat different.
391
00:17:29,465 --> 00:17:31,884
It would be easy to load
392
00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:34,344
meaning into a word that's used.
393
00:17:34,928 --> 00:17:37,681
That meaning wasn't even there originally.
394
00:17:37,973 --> 00:17:39,683
It wasn't even present.
395
00:17:40,142 --> 00:17:42,644
Sometimes we'll say things like, "When Paul says,
396
00:17:42,644 --> 00:17:44,897
"Dunamis," what he meant was dynamite."
397
00:17:45,105 --> 00:17:46,690
Well, no.
398
00:17:47,399 --> 00:17:48,317
He meant power.
399
00:17:49,193 --> 00:17:51,945
More generally, but probably not the explosive
400
00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:53,781
because he didn't have that.
401
00:17:54,406 --> 00:17:55,949
Yeah, that's a great point.
402
00:17:55,949 --> 00:17:59,453
So a thing to keep in mind here then, maybe the
403
00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:01,580
temptation is to label some church fathers
404
00:18:01,580 --> 00:18:03,457
as a bad influence because they
405
00:18:03,457 --> 00:18:06,251
disagree with our beliefs or practice.
406
00:18:07,211 --> 00:18:09,171
That would be, I guess, the same thing you're
407
00:18:09,171 --> 00:18:10,589
saying, just going the other direction.
408
00:18:10,589 --> 00:18:12,132
It's like, "Oh, well, we don't like that church
409
00:18:12,132 --> 00:18:14,176
father because they disagree with what I say."
410
00:18:15,302 --> 00:18:21,099
I'd agree that certain church fathers on certain
411
00:18:21,099 --> 00:18:23,685
points, they lose that sense of scale.
412
00:18:24,144 --> 00:18:27,064
They get out of touch with the consensus that's
413
00:18:27,064 --> 00:18:29,107
emerging, and where they do that, they
414
00:18:29,107 --> 00:18:30,192
should be called out.
415
00:18:31,109 --> 00:18:35,239
Again, some of their limitations as humans and
416
00:18:35,239 --> 00:18:38,408
sometimes their sinfulness has come out.
417
00:18:38,659 --> 00:18:43,622
Would it be worthwhile to perhaps not consult
418
00:18:43,622 --> 00:18:45,582
certain fathers on certain...
419
00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:46,083
Absolutely.
420
00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:47,876
Maybe a bad idea.
421
00:18:48,752 --> 00:18:51,046
I think also we might be just acknowledging here
422
00:18:51,046 --> 00:18:56,009
that the tendency of humans and of these
423
00:18:56,009 --> 00:19:00,013
men too, as great of leaders as they were, is
424
00:19:00,013 --> 00:19:01,765
tremendous pressure they were under.
425
00:19:02,891 --> 00:19:06,395
The human possibility of capitulating, of
426
00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:09,606
surrendering, really important things sometimes
427
00:19:10,315 --> 00:19:13,068
when they're faced with alternatives.
428
00:19:15,362 --> 00:19:17,739
That's also a possibility for some of these men.
429
00:19:18,198 --> 00:19:20,158
Sometimes they do have a history of
430
00:19:20,158 --> 00:19:22,619
capitulation on important points.
431
00:19:23,328 --> 00:19:25,080
We have to be aware of that too, but to be a
432
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,916
church father means that to take the average,
433
00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:30,085
they were faithful men.
434
00:19:31,503 --> 00:19:35,841
And hear me right, commendable in a way that we
435
00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:37,676
can only aspire to measure up to.
436
00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:39,678
Okay.
437
00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:42,639
So clearly there are lots of different groups and
438
00:19:42,639 --> 00:19:44,683
denominations and so forth that point
439
00:19:44,766 --> 00:19:49,187
to the early church fathers to help, as reference
440
00:19:49,187 --> 00:19:51,148
points say, for their belief system.
441
00:19:51,148 --> 00:19:52,649
And things that all of this starts getting really
442
00:19:52,649 --> 00:19:54,443
complicated and confusing because
443
00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:57,738
you have really diverse groups pointing back to,
444
00:19:57,738 --> 00:19:59,239
"Oh, it's in the patristics, the early
445
00:19:59,239 --> 00:20:01,074
church writings that this and this and this, and
446
00:20:01,074 --> 00:20:02,284
then a different group that says the opposite
447
00:20:02,284 --> 00:20:03,869
thing says the same," points back.
448
00:20:04,161 --> 00:20:05,412
It gets really confusing.
449
00:20:06,538 --> 00:20:07,748
So the question is, is it still
450
00:20:07,748 --> 00:20:10,292
worth reading the early church writings?
451
00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:13,503
And if so, why should we care?
452
00:20:14,129 --> 00:20:16,506
And where should we start if we
453
00:20:16,506 --> 00:20:17,633
want to start reading this stuff?
454
00:20:17,633 --> 00:20:19,343
Because I've started to
455
00:20:19,343 --> 00:20:20,510
and it's really overwhelming.
456
00:20:20,510 --> 00:20:21,637
I mean, there's so much there.
457
00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:23,263
Where do I start?
458
00:20:23,555 --> 00:20:25,891
And it's easy for the stuff to get hijacked by
459
00:20:25,891 --> 00:20:27,392
different denominations and schools of
460
00:20:27,392 --> 00:20:28,477
thought and so forth.
461
00:20:28,477 --> 00:20:29,519
Anyway, speak in to that.
462
00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:31,647
The main point there being if I'm hearing you
463
00:20:31,647 --> 00:20:35,901
right, that if you're hoping to make a
464
00:20:35,943 --> 00:20:39,821
unified church out of reading the fathers, that
465
00:20:39,821 --> 00:20:41,573
may not be the best solution.
466
00:20:41,573 --> 00:20:44,368
It can actually be divisive.
467
00:20:45,118 --> 00:20:48,497
Well, yeah, or maybe just confusing is the word
468
00:20:48,497 --> 00:20:50,290
that comes to my mind because I see it
469
00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:51,708
and use, I mean, you're seeing this in the
470
00:20:51,708 --> 00:20:53,168
comments that we're getting, right?
471
00:20:53,710 --> 00:20:56,004
You know, "Oh, well, clearly you should believe
472
00:20:56,004 --> 00:20:58,715
in infant baptism if you read the early church."
473
00:20:58,715 --> 00:21:00,509
Whereas the next person that I might talk to
474
00:21:00,509 --> 00:21:02,094
says, "Oh, no, clearly not if you read
475
00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:02,803
the early church writings."
476
00:21:03,136 --> 00:21:04,554
It starts getting really confusing.
477
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:05,472
And so then it's just like, I
478
00:21:05,472 --> 00:21:06,306
don't even know where to start.
479
00:21:06,556 --> 00:21:08,475
I'm not even going to read these because it's
480
00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:09,351
just too much to untangle.
481
00:21:09,893 --> 00:21:11,770
And that can discourage people from ever engaging
482
00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:13,522
with these writings to begin with.
483
00:21:14,147 --> 00:21:15,941
So I guess what I'm saying is make a case for
484
00:21:15,941 --> 00:21:17,859
like, why should we care about these writings
485
00:21:17,859 --> 00:21:19,486
and why you think people should read them?
486
00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:20,153
Yeah.
487
00:21:21,571 --> 00:21:25,367
Well, I hope in saying this that I don't diminish
488
00:21:25,367 --> 00:21:27,119
them too much, the fathers.
489
00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:31,540
But I could have first maybe
490
00:21:31,540 --> 00:21:33,333
see this in terms of encounter.
491
00:21:34,793 --> 00:21:37,504
And in my work with Irenaeus, it started off, I
492
00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:39,840
just wanted to engage his ideas because
493
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:40,632
I had a project.
494
00:21:42,217 --> 00:21:44,636
But toward the end of it, I got to know him a bit
495
00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:50,559
more as a person, as a man who turned
496
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,479
himself in to some really challenging times in
497
00:21:54,479 --> 00:21:55,897
church history, especially with his work
498
00:21:55,939 --> 00:21:57,274
with the Valentinian Gnostics.
499
00:21:59,526 --> 00:22:04,156
And I began to appreciate him and admire him and
500
00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:07,200
hope to learn from him in the same way
501
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,162
that I would from somebody that I appreciate
502
00:22:10,162 --> 00:22:13,540
because of the kind of life that they have
503
00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:14,041
lived out.
504
00:22:14,791 --> 00:22:16,626
So maybe that's a starting point to move through
505
00:22:16,626 --> 00:22:18,879
that confusion, say, "Who were these men?
506
00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:20,964
How did they respond?"
507
00:22:21,214 --> 00:22:23,133
Because all of them had a story to tell.
508
00:22:24,134 --> 00:22:27,596
All of them had a life for the fathers.
509
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:29,514
It included adversity and difficulty.
510
00:22:30,474 --> 00:22:31,391
And there's usually something
511
00:22:31,391 --> 00:22:32,642
there that's worth imitating.
512
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:36,354
Now, the second thing I might just suggest is,
513
00:22:37,481 --> 00:22:39,983
yeah, watch for their intent.
514
00:22:40,817 --> 00:22:43,862
Part of why they're recognized as a church father
515
00:22:43,862 --> 00:22:45,697
frequently isn't just because they
516
00:22:45,697 --> 00:22:47,616
are really sharp, which they were,
517
00:22:47,616 --> 00:22:49,201
are really capable and competent.
518
00:22:49,201 --> 00:22:50,118
They tended to be.
519
00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:54,498
It's also because they loved
520
00:22:54,498 --> 00:22:56,917
the church and they loved Jesus.
521
00:22:58,210 --> 00:23:01,004
So our response to them, our response to them, if
522
00:23:01,004 --> 00:23:02,756
we're going to be willing to cherry pick
523
00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:06,384
just to add a little padding to our argument,
524
00:23:07,219 --> 00:23:09,721
that might be exactly violating their intention.
525
00:23:12,307 --> 00:23:16,770
You've got to look past, not just mine them for
526
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:20,899
my own historicist project, but also to
527
00:23:20,899 --> 00:23:22,359
see toward their heart a little
528
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,152
bit, which again, is not unmixed.
529
00:23:24,820 --> 00:23:27,239
These men lived lives of repentance frequently.
530
00:23:29,699 --> 00:23:32,702
But to ask the question, how is it, like Paul
531
00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:36,123
would suggest for us, how is this expedient
532
00:23:36,665 --> 00:23:38,333
for the building of Christ's body?
533
00:23:39,084 --> 00:23:40,794
And that becomes the primary question.
534
00:23:43,547 --> 00:23:45,924
So practically speaking, if someone wants to
535
00:23:45,924 --> 00:23:48,593
start, do you have a recommendation of
536
00:23:48,593 --> 00:23:49,386
where in the church fathers
537
00:23:49,386 --> 00:23:50,303
they should start reading?
538
00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:52,681
Oh, wow.
539
00:23:53,598 --> 00:23:57,769
There's a lot of options to choose from.
Yeah.
540
00:23:58,603 --> 00:24:01,148
I think you should all start with Irenaeus.
541
00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:07,487
He still won my heart in some ways.
542
00:24:08,446 --> 00:24:10,740
But there's a lot to appreciate.
543
00:24:11,241 --> 00:24:12,909
There's some that are more
544
00:24:12,909 --> 00:24:15,162
philosophically or dogmatically inclined.
545
00:24:15,162 --> 00:24:17,080
They tend to be harder read and a real slog.
546
00:24:18,165 --> 00:24:24,045
Gregory of Nyssa, a Origen, some
547
00:24:24,045 --> 00:24:25,338
of them, a lot of appreciation.
548
00:24:25,964 --> 00:24:28,925
But I wouldn't recommend starting there
549
00:24:28,925 --> 00:24:30,260
necessarily unless that's your gut.
550
00:24:32,679 --> 00:24:37,642
Some like Clement, Clement of Alexandria, Clement of Rome,
551
00:24:38,476 --> 00:24:40,020
Irenaeus, I'm just drawing from memory.
552
00:24:40,770 --> 00:24:42,564
In my experience, have been a little bit more
553
00:24:42,564 --> 00:24:44,441
approachable and maybe don't need quite so
554
00:24:44,608 --> 00:24:45,734
much explaining either.
555
00:24:47,986 --> 00:24:48,570
But do start.
556
00:24:49,404 --> 00:24:52,199
Yeah, I think that's the one piece.
557
00:24:53,617 --> 00:24:55,452
If people take something away from this podcast,
558
00:24:55,827 --> 00:24:58,455
is to actually go and engage with these writings
559
00:24:58,580 --> 00:25:00,916
themselves instead of the, like you've been
560
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:03,043
saying, the cherry picking, not paying attention
561
00:25:03,043 --> 00:25:07,172
to the context of what these men were facing as
562
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:07,923
they were writing these things.
563
00:25:07,923 --> 00:25:08,673
What were the issues that
564
00:25:08,673 --> 00:25:09,591
they were having to wrestle with?
565
00:25:09,591 --> 00:25:12,719
What was the context of the society and culture
566
00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:14,471
and language and all of
567
00:25:14,471 --> 00:25:15,931
these things that, I mean,
568
00:25:15,931 --> 00:25:18,183
these works were not written in a vacuum,
569
00:25:18,391 --> 00:25:20,602
obviously, and keeping all of that in mind.
570
00:25:20,602 --> 00:25:21,353
I think that's some important
571
00:25:21,353 --> 00:25:23,021
principles to leave people with.
572
00:25:23,521 --> 00:25:26,316
And I hope, I should say here too,
573
00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:30,487
as we wrap up, by emphasizing history,
574
00:25:31,071 --> 00:25:33,615
by emphasizing the humanity of these men, it
575
00:25:33,615 --> 00:25:36,284
could feel like I'm diminishing them.
576
00:25:37,077 --> 00:25:38,161
That's not my intention.
577
00:25:39,287 --> 00:25:41,790
That can frequently happen where as soon as you
578
00:25:41,790 --> 00:25:42,874
start to look at context,
579
00:25:42,874 --> 00:25:44,251
you start to historicize.
580
00:25:44,918 --> 00:25:47,796
That is to say, oh, you belittle them and then
581
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,215
you can just kind of do more cherry picking.
582
00:25:51,424 --> 00:25:53,218
He didn't really understand what he was doing
583
00:25:53,218 --> 00:25:55,428
here, but here are some things that I feel
584
00:25:55,428 --> 00:25:56,596
mattered as a historian.
585
00:25:57,097 --> 00:25:58,598
No, I don't think that's quite right.
586
00:25:58,598 --> 00:26:03,728
The invitation here is to look at them as men, as
587
00:26:03,728 --> 00:26:06,773
limited and sometimes as broken as they were,
588
00:26:07,607 --> 00:26:12,028
who added leadership and who added thoughtful
589
00:26:12,028 --> 00:26:14,239
ways of looking at the world to the church,
590
00:26:14,864 --> 00:26:18,660
but neither to elevate them too highly,
591
00:26:20,704 --> 00:26:24,165
especially not to give them priority, say, over
592
00:26:24,165 --> 00:26:25,959
the New Testament or over Jesus.
593
00:26:26,793 --> 00:26:29,379
And I think that's one of the things, not lift
594
00:26:29,379 --> 00:26:32,299
these writings more highly than they are,
595
00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:35,385
but yet also give them the due respect and honor
596
00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:39,222
that they do deserve, you know, for sure.
597
00:26:39,848 --> 00:26:41,766
Yeah, to recognize that these are men who faced
598
00:26:41,766 --> 00:26:46,104
challenges that required heroic amounts of
599
00:26:46,104 --> 00:26:48,857
faithfulness and fidelity and just hard work,
600
00:26:49,691 --> 00:26:52,485
but at the same time, not to elevate them up,
601
00:26:53,111 --> 00:26:55,196
especially over the one who they're giving their
602
00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:56,865
testimony to, that's Jesus Christ,
603
00:26:57,824 --> 00:27:00,660
not to elevate them over the written witness,
604
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,746
that'd be words of Scripture,
605
00:27:03,038 --> 00:27:04,247
particularly the New Testament.
606
00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:07,959
And I think that's the best honor that we can
607
00:27:07,959 --> 00:27:10,587
show them, just kind of keep them in their place
608
00:27:10,587 --> 00:27:12,255
beneath the lordship of Jesus
609
00:27:12,589 --> 00:27:15,800
and to find inspiration from them, to structure
610
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,594
our thinking, following their footsteps.
611
00:27:17,594 --> 00:27:20,138
But if we really honor a church
612
00:27:20,138 --> 00:27:22,015
father, I think we honor Jesus.
613
00:27:24,559 --> 00:27:26,728
Yeah, that's an important piece.
614
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,734
Well, thanks for describing this. Hopefully, some
615
00:27:32,734 --> 00:27:35,445
of the people who had these comments and feedback
616
00:27:35,445 --> 00:27:36,821
for us can listen to this,
617
00:27:36,821 --> 00:27:39,240
and maybe you'll give them some more pieces to
618
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:40,492
work with. I think that's important.
619
00:27:41,326 --> 00:27:43,620
And in the end, so that people listening to this
620
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:44,829
will say, "Oh, maybe I should
621
00:27:44,829 --> 00:27:46,247
pick up some of these early church writings
622
00:27:46,581 --> 00:27:49,250
and give them a read." I think that's the one
623
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,419
piece that I hope comes out of this.
624
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:54,422
Yeah. I'm so glad for the questions, too.
625
00:27:54,964 --> 00:27:55,173
Yeah.
626
00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:56,174
Wow.
627
00:27:56,174 --> 00:27:57,592
Thanks for sharing, Kyle. We appreciate it.
628
00:27:59,135 --> 00:28:01,137
Thanks for listening to this episode with Kyle.
629
00:28:01,596 --> 00:28:03,139
If you found this interesting, you may want to
630
00:28:03,139 --> 00:28:04,224
check out our other project
631
00:28:04,224 --> 00:28:05,809
called "Anabaptist Origins,"
632
00:28:05,809 --> 00:28:07,519
which is a documentary series about the
633
00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:09,104
beginnings of the Anabaptist movement.
634
00:28:09,604 --> 00:28:11,481
You can find more information on the other
635
00:28:11,481 --> 00:28:14,192
website we have called AnabaptistOrigins.org.
636
00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:16,027
It's also its own YouTube channel,
637
00:28:16,027 --> 00:28:17,570
which you can find linked down below.
638
00:28:18,113 --> 00:28:19,239
Thanks again for listening, and
639
00:28:19,239 --> 00:28:20,573
we'll catch you in the next episode.