Matt Edmundson: Welcome to this week's Crowd Church service.
We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus helps
us live a more meaningful life.
We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith, and a place
where you can contribute and grow.
I want to invite you to connect with us here at Crowd Church.
Crowd Church, and there are a few ways that you can do just that.
Firstly, you can engage with crowd from any device during our live stream.
And if you're up for it, why not invite a few friends over and
experience the service together?
Church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others.
And one of the easiest ways for you to do that is to also join.
One of our mid week groups where we meet online together to catch up and discover
more about the amazingness of Christ.
You can also subscribe to our podcast called What's The Story?
Where we deep dive into stories of faith and courage from everyday people.
More information about all of these things that I've mentioned can
be found on our website at www.
crowd.
church, or you can reach us on social media at Crowd Church.
If you're new to Crowd or new to the Christian faith and would like to know
what your next steps to take are why not head over to our website crowd.
church forward slash next.
For more details.
And now, the moment you've been waiting for is here.
Our online church service starts right now.
Wow, good afternoon.
Jan Burch: Good afternoon.
Matt Edmundson: Good evening.
Jan Burch: Good evening.
Matt Edmundson: How are we doing?
Jan Burch: Very well, how are you?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, good.
Good, Liverpool just won yeah.
Warm welcome to, this is not a football show by the way, warm welcome to you.
If this is your first time with us, welcome to Crowd Online Church.
Great that you're here.
I am with, next to me is a beautiful lady, Jen.
Jan Burch: Hola.
I am next to Matt.
Hello.
Hello, everyone.
Just
Matt Edmundson: in case you didn't know.
Yeah.
Okay, brilliant.
So welcome to you.
It's great that you're here.
Warm welcome to you.
Join us in the comments.
Say hi.
Be great to see how, where you are watching this from the world.
If you are in actually in the UK tearing yourself away from the football, it is
that if you're watching this outside the UK, it's the last day of the season today.
And so the league gets decided today, all kinds of things
get decided today, don't they?
Yes, we appreciate if you're here, just, towing yourself away.
Cause you were sat outside listening to the Everton
game.
Jan Burch: I was in the car.
Before I let
Matt Edmundson: you in.
Yeah,
Jan Burch: and you were listening to the Liverpool game.
Matt Edmundson: I was listening to the Liverpool game as well.
Yeah today we are talking about I say we goodness we'll sup with.
He's talking about goodness.
The goodness of God, yeah.
And you've heard the talk.
Jan Burch: I have.
Matt Edmundson: Is it worth sticking around for?
It is, it's very good.
Jan Burch: Yeah, certainly is.
Matt Edmundson: Which is good to know.
Looking forward to that.
Hey, Peter's in the comments.
Matt's in the comments.
Congratulations to Man City.
Yeah, hey, they have won the league, haven't they, Man City?
Yeah.
A very warm welcome to you.
Hi, Andy.
Let me just check.
I've got to put my glasses on.
Because for some reason, the Instagram comments aren't coming up.
But welcome, Nicola.
I see you're in the comments.
They're not coming up on the screen.
It's not working today, but they're working on my phone.
So if you're watching on Instagram, very warm welcome to you.
It's great to see you here.
This is like a, I don't know, like our fourth or fifth
time going on to Instagram.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
You're watching on Instagram.
Tell us if it's working.
Yeah.
I'm curious to know.
So yeah.
So the way this is going to work is in a few short seconds, we'll have a
few short seconds in a few minutes.
We are going to play the talk from Will on the goodness of God.
And then Jen and I are going to be back after that talk.
We're going to talk about it, talk about your questions, your comments, all
the stuff you put in the live stream.
If you're listening to the.
Talk or the show?
It's not a show, is it?
Jan Burch: I don't
Matt Edmundson: think so.
Yeah, no, it's not a show.
If you're listening to Crowd via the podcast, or you're watching on catch
up, and you're not joining us in the livestream, very warm welcome to you.
The way it works is those who join us live throw in all kinds
of comments and questions.
Yeah.
And then we get to chat about them.
Yeah.
Which I think is very exciting.
It is much more exciting.
So yes, Andy, did you get all your books?
Andy sent me an email this week saying what books should
I read and so I'm curious.
Did you go and get some of those?
Just let us know.
I'm too tired for Edmo's ways tonight.
Come on
Jan Burch: Matt Crew, don't say that.
Matt Edmundson: I don't even know what Edmo's ways are, do you?
Jan Burch: I don't know if I've got a fair idea, but, yeah.
Okay,
Matt Edmundson: yeah.
Maybe this is something you can imagine.
I know where he's coming from.
Yeah?
Okay.
Yeah.
Fair play.
Alright we'll talk It's all good though, Matt.
It's all good.
It's it's good.
Without further ado, let's play the talk.
Then Jan, oh no, and Jan.
I'll start that sentence again.
It's going to be one of those, isn't it?
It's going to be one of those.
So Jen and I will be back after the talk.
Don't go anywhere.
Like I say, write your questions, write your thoughts in the comments.
Really looking forward to hearing those.
And we'll see you in there.
Will Sopwith: We're in the middle of a series looking at the fruits
of the Holy Spirit, the attributes of God that should mark out the
life of a person following Jesus.
And today we're looking at goodness.
Now, good has perhaps become a rather non committal word.
It's a word we sometimes use when we haven't got a whole
lot to say about something.
It's a word we use when there's nothing especially outstanding about something.
It's a word we perhaps use to describe something we're
not 100 percent convinced of.
How was the film?
It was good.
How are you today?
Good.
What are the chances of sun tomorrow?
Good.
How's your meal?
Good.
How does she do?
Good.
The Lego Movie does an absolutely brilliant send up of our modern
tendency to live in the extremes.
And if you've never watched the Lego Movie, do yourself a
favour, it's not a kid's film.
The main character, Emmett, was totally bought in to this idea.
That's sold to him, incidentally.
That his dull, unchanging routine is actually awesome.
That everything is awesome.
Do you ever get an enthusiastic, that's amazing, from someone
on a telephone helpline?
Could you give me the first and fourth characters of your memorable word?
Amazing!
Now, I'm sorry to go all grumpy old man for a minute, but that's
not amazing, that's just memory.
Everyone seems to be a hero these days, or brave, or astonishing.
On the other end of the dial, someone might be described as pure evil.
If something's gone wrong, it tends to be disastrous, the end, worst nightmare.
If we agree with an idea, we agree 100%.
It's exhausting living in the extremes, or more accurately, feeling the pressure
that everything should be at the extreme.
That everything should be felt or experienced intensely.
That if something is just okay, or even good, it's falling far short
of what it could or should be.
Why isn't it awesome?
Or perfect?
Why isn't life a constant high of incredible experiences?
What's wrong with it?
What's wrong with me?
And as I was thinking about goodness, I wondered whether
this was partly the point.
I absolutely love the concept of goodness, maybe in part because it is so underrated.
It shreds the solid, stable ground of consistency in a
world of fragile extremes.
It quietly offers reassurance of going the distance in a fickle, emotional world.
A world where feeling, however fleeting, is celebrated out of all proportion,
and preferably dialed up to the max.
Goodness is ordinary, relatively speaking.
Goodness feels reliable.
It feels authentic, like it can't be faked.
Goodness is safe.
Perhaps the reason goodness is a fruit of God, the Holy Spirit, is
because we desperately need it.
In our rather spiritually impoverished lives, one metaphor that came
to mind was an agricultural one.
The goodness or richness of thick, dark soil, compared with a
dusty, dry field of no substance.
Together with the sun, the richness of the earth results in the slow development
of goodness in a strawberry or a grape.
Goodness can't be rushed or forced.
Goodness infuses a crop over a long period of time.
And you know when something is good.
A tomato ripened through a season of Mediterranean sun will always outstrip
one, ripened in a plastic pack in the depths of a cargo container.
So for me, goodness is a deep and rich quality that has real substance.
It's very apt as a fruit.
But what is it?
One way to always answer a question like that is to think about its opposite.
Bad.
Another food analogy.
When something is good, it's not just delicious, But nourishing and healthy.
Bad food is not just unpleasant, it also has connotations of harm.
A good outcome, even if not perfect, includes a sense
of hope, of positive future.
A bad outcome has other connotations, perhaps ongoing struggle or failure.
Goodness also has a multiplying sense.
Doing something for the greater good describes how the actions of one or two
can spread out to benefit many others.
As I said, I love the concept of goodness.
On the surface, we might equate goodness with something like kindness.
And it's interesting that kindness is also in this passage in Galatians
that we've been working through.
But it's described as a distinct fruit in its own right.
And it's true that kindness usually is an outworking of
goodness, a sign of goodness.
But goodness feels more like a foundational attribute.
Kindness is a way I can sometimes choose to act, but equally I can choose not to.
It feels a bit more temporary.
Be kind is increasingly a response encouraged in public life, which
kind of acknowledges the fact that it's a habit to try and form.
But I think goodness is not so much a behaviour, but a state of heart.
We undersell it if we only think in terms of a habit.
Like the command to a child, Be good for Grandma.
In fact, the whole book of Galatians, where this passage about the fruits
of the Spirit comes, is about being set free in God by grace, instead of
just towing the line to meet God's and everyone else's expectations.
Yeah, the Bible commands us to do good, but good behaviour learned without
a deep underlying well of goodness.
My prison sentence might be shortened for good behaviour, but it doesn't necessarily
give confidence to the state of my heart.
My dog can learn and mimic a certain level of expected behaviour, if
there's an edible reward at stake.
But he and I both know, I think, that it's a sham.
If I left him for too long unsupervised near a table, adorned with roast
dinner, there's no question where his particular moral compass will steer him.
You've probably come across the scenario where a news crew doorsteps
a member of the public to get their view on what turned out to
be a terrorist living next door.
Invariably, there's surprise expressed.
They just seem like a good neighbour, always polite.
So good behaviour can be faked.
And as I said, I think goodness is like A bedrock underlying the landscape.
It's at the core if it's authentic.
It's not a learned behaviour but a fundamental characteristic.
This is certainly the sense where the Bible describes God as good.
In Psalm 100 verse 5 it says, God is good and his love endures forever.
Jesus says in Matthew chapter 19 to one of those engaging in debate with
him, there's only one who is good.
Referring to God.
God doesn't need to be reminded to be good, cajoled into good behaviour.
God is good.
It's part of God's core nature and character.
And to be honest, this is tremendously reassuring because, as I've said,
we are sorely in need of goodness.
But it can also be challenging, because the evidence of that
goodness is not always obvious to us.
And just because God is good, and we can feel God's goodness, Doesn't necessarily
mean that's always our experience.
But because God is good, then the fruit of walking a life in step with God should
also have the hallmarks of goodness.
And this is the case for all the fruits of the Spirit.
That essence of God's nature rubs off on us when we seek to
be transformed through faith.
When we commit to walk a new path as a result of that transformation,
the Christian life exhibits these fruits of God's nature, not because
we're trying to be better, but because we're trying to be better.
Because somehow the Holy Spirit actually changes our hearts.
Christians are not just do gooders, they are, or aspire to be,
reflectors of God's very nature.
God's goodness can be traced throughout scripture, through
his character, through his works.
It's there in the original creation, in Genesis chapter 1 verse 31.
God saw that it, all that he'd made, was good.
The people of Israel were promised a good land on their escape from Egypt.
And in Numbers 14 verse 7, it was described by scouts as exceedingly good.
To the prophet Nehemiah, in Nehemiah 9 verse 20, God is described like this.
You gave your good spirit.
In Lamentations 3, verse 25, God is described as being good
to those whose hope is in him.
And Jesus starts proclaiming the good news of salvation in Matthew 4, verse 23,
and argues in Matthew 7, verse 11, that if human parents know how to give good
gifts to their children, how much more does God know how to give good gifts?
Jesus is described in Acts 10, verse 38, by the first gospel preachers as
someone who went around doing good.
In Romans 8, verse 28, we're told that God works all things for good.
And in James 1, verse 17, every good and perfect gift.
is described as coming from God.
And finally, Peter, one of the closest friends of Jesus during his time on
Earth, describes Christians as those that have tasted that the Lord is good.
I hope you're beginning to share some of my enthusiasm for goodness.
A final aspect of goodness you might want to consider is purity and justice.
And there's a sense that the quality of goodness in someone is
associated with their trustworthiness.
We have trust that a good person will do what's right.
Not because they've learned to, but because their motivations are right.
And this is illustrated in a very well known image Jesus paints
of himself as the Good Shepherd.
You probably get an immediate thought of a romanticised vision of a long
haired bearded guy in a robe, perhaps with a halo, tenderly cradling a lamb.
Let's read what Jesus said.
It's in John 10, starting at verse 11.
I am the Good Shepherd.
The Good Shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd.
And does not own the sheep.
So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away.
Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd.
I know my sheep, and my sheep know me.
Just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father, and I
lay down my life for the sheep.
What defines the shepherd as good?
He
looks after the sheep.
Not because he's being paid, or because it's personally convenient,
or because of the social standing or reputation it will give him.
He does so because he cares.
The motivation of the good shepherd is one of care for
the sheep, rather than himself.
Or from some ulterior motive.
The Good Shepherd even goes so far as laying down his life for the sheep,
just what Jesus then went on to do.
Of course.
I think deep down we want to be cared for like this with a constancy, doesn't
waver with our stupidity or our wandering.
A care that doesn't rely on our effort or capacity, but
remains true in every season.
A care that's not going to run out on us at the first sight of trouble.
This is the image we have of God's goodness.
Not only is this God's heart for each one of us, but this heart can also be our
heart through the work of the Holy Spirit.
The
goodness we experience in God.
can become a goodness we express in our lives.
We have a choice, actually on a day to day basis, to put our trust in
this Good Shepherd, to follow him, or the alternative, to put our trust
in ourselves, in our own capacity, or in the social structures around us.
Or, on the promises a public figure, or even a business, may make to us.
This choice often requires submission, surrender, putting aside our own agenda,
but goodness is an attribute I've learned over many years to put my trust in.
Just a quick testimony of God's goodness, and I could think of lots of
stories where I've felt a bit of God's goodness, but this one's our house.
We have an amazing house, one of those corners of Liverpool that's
The house is a hundred years old, it's a beautiful street, before it's
taken over by the rest of the city.
We'd been looking for about four years to a house that, with a garden
that our children could grow up in.
And, over all those years, we're just not found anywhere.
Anyway, we finally find this house.
Just online.
And there was one photo of this house on the online thing.
Now, normally you're looking for a house online, it's got photos of every room.
It had one photo, and that photo looked perfect.
Pretty shoddy.
So we thought this is going to be bad and it was way over our budget.
Anyway, thought nothing more of it.
One morning, woke up just with the name of the road on my mind.
This was like weeks after, didn't even remember I'd seen a house on
that road and thought nothing of it.
A couple of days later, I was just going through my scrolling
as you do looking for a house.
And I spotted this house that I'd saved in my as my sort of
possible kind of right area.
Right sort of size.
And it was the, it was this word.
It was this road that I'd just woken up with a few days before.
So I thought, oh, maybe I'll go and look at it.
So I phoned up the estate agent.
He said, oh, never get any viewings on that.
The the owner lives overseas.
We can never get hold of him.
Yeah, it's been on for ages.
No one wants to see it.
And even if they do, we can't get there.
Anyway, a very long story.
But we just felt, me and my wife, this is God's house for us.
And we're going to trust in his goodness.
And it took us 18 months.
And through that time we got, there was a crack down the front, the garden
was flooded, the stairs were broken, there was a sitting tenant, there were
squatters at one point, the door was smashed in, all before we'd bought it.
And we got a full survey done on it because it there was a crack down
the front and big trees and, lots of stuff that could be really bad.
And this 50 page report started with, use extreme caution in buying this house.
The estate agents thought we were mad.
We'd looked at other places, but we kept going.
Sensing that this was God's goodness to us.
Couldn't get a mortgage, couldn't get insurance.
Anyway, 18 months since we've first seen it.
Finally, it was ours.
And from the first moment it's been home, it's been a lot of work to do on it.
But all that kind of big work.
Turned out actually cheaper than it possibly could have been,
and less than we'd budgeted for.
When does that ever happen?
And all the way through, there was this sense of, this feels
crazy, this feels wrong, but I feel it's what you've said, God.
And there were moments when I thought, what on earth am
I putting my family through?
Let's just buy somewhere sensible that doesn't need all this work doing on it.
But anyway we got the house and it's been amazing ever since.
And we've.
That's it.
That's just one example of how we've been able to, year by
year, be able to do bits to it.
And that's all, that's just remained this story of God's goodness in our family.
I'm saying, against the odds, and we kept on putting aside, in a sense,
our own preference in some ways and say, no, this is a place that
we feel God's got for us to live.
And that's just one example of where you can go.
If you choose to put your trust in God, you can begin
to taste some of his goodness.
And I tell that story a lot and we tell it in our family because it's just
such a good reminder of God's goodness to us and blessing against the odds.
Anyway, to wrap up, God is good.
Goodness is not flash, it's not fleeting, it's solid.
And if we've set our lives to follow Jesus, that goodness will also follow.
Be at work in our lives.
So enjoy it and share it.
Matt Edmundson: Very good.
Yeah.
Very good.
I'm not quite sure what's going on with the screen, but we're
both on there at the moment.
Oh, yeah.
Ooh, something funky going on with the cameras.
Don't know what that is.
Jan, you talk a little bit.
I'm gonna switch that camera on and off.
Jan Burch: Okay.
Yeah.
Now thank you, Will, for that talk.
That was really challenging.
I don't know.
Actually, the last time I heard anybody talk about goodness.
I think that's why it's so good to be going through the, give to
the spirit and we it's something that we should be forefront.
in our minds, really.
And no, I thought that was challenging.
Yeah.
And really interesting as well.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Camera's still being funny.
Jan Burch: Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Don't know why it's doing that.
Yeah.
Don't know why it's doing that.
So anyway, let's crack on.
So yeah.
Yeah, it's just been really funky.
The camera split me in half for some reason.
And I don't know why.
Let's Yeah, who knows.
Every week a tech issue is right, Mr.
Crew.
It wouldn't be Crowd Church without a tech issue, would it?
It wouldn't.
Why do church if you can't have any tech issues?
So what I'm going to do is put the camera back on Jan, and then we'll
keep talking, and I'm going to set up another camera, real quick.
Jan Burch: Keep talking, we'll keep talking.
Yeah one of the first points, we'd love to hear what you all thought of Will's talk.
If you've got any comments, please send them in, write them down.
We'd love to discuss.
Your thoughts as well.
But goodness I had a quick look earlier of the dictionary definition.
And it says that it's a morality, a virtue, and it refers to
qualities of Someone's character.
Yeah.
And it's general quality recognizing character or conduct.
So what we thought.
But then I read about the Greek word for goodness.
which is agathosune, yeah agathosune, yeah, really messed that one up probably
no and it means an uprightness of heart and life, ooh It says, the Greek
describes goodness as an action, a bit like love, in that it's not just
about your heart, it's actually how you live your life, it's about goodness,
so I thought that was interesting.
Matt Edmundson: And do you agree with that?
Jan Burch: Yeah I do yeah, of course, yeah.
And Will described it as a foundational.
attribute and God's core nature.
Yeah,
Matt Edmundson: very much his core nature.
Sorry about this, ladies and gentlemen.
For those of you watching on YouTube, you get to see me twice.
And for those watching on Instagram, you don't get to see me at all.
Which might be a blessing to many people.
We just don't know.
And hopefully we'll get that fixed at some point.
I just this bizarre how it's just done that I don't really know what to say.
Yeah, how very peculiar.
Let's talk about God's goodness then.
Yeah.
Because God's good irrespective of what happens in the life.
Jan Burch: Yes, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Irrespective of whether we get a picture split in two or not.
Yeah.
He is still good.
And Andy actually said in the comment, God is good even when we don't deserve it.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Do you think that's right?
Jan Burch: Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
The kindness, that's the essence of who he is.
It's an unconditional love, isn't it?
And he's, does things for us and in our lives that, we
could never earn or deserve.
Yeah.
So yeah, I do, I agree with that, Andy.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: It's got to be true, hasn't it?
Because fundamentally we never deserved, we Any goodness from God in many ways,
but he, the goodness of God doesn't depend on how well, how good we've been.
No.
If that makes sense.
No.
And actually, that's quite nice.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Absolutely.
It's the grace of
Jan Burch: God, isn't it?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
It's the grace of God.
Yeah.
So just you said you were looking in the dictionary on what goodness was.
Yeah.
Just read those again.
Jan Burch: Yeah, it's about morality.
It's about being having virtue, and refers to qualities like that of character.
Yeah.
And it says yes, generally recognizing character or conduct.
And then the Greek talks of goodness as an action, and an uprightness of heart.
Yeah.
and life.
Yeah.
So it's not just how you behave, or what you say.
But it's actually how you live your life when no one's looking.
Oh, like that.
And
Matt Edmundson: Like that a lot.
Yeah.
How do we were talking about how God is good.
Yeah.
How do you then see in the light of that?
How do you see?
God is good.
What does that mean to you?
Jan Burch: And He is the only one of us, only person, only
deity that is without sin.
Yeah.
We are all imperfect.
Yeah.
We are becoming more like Jesus.
We're growing into his, becoming more like him day by day.
But we're still not.
There and we won't be perfect until we're in heaven.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
Jan Burch: so only really at three o'clock in the morning at 1 a.
m in the morning My reaction to something may not be good.
Yeah, whereas God is always good
Matt Edmundson: Yeah,
Jan Burch: so not only is his character good, but the way he
behaves and it's general who he is at the very core is good.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, totally agree.
Totally agree.
I love that.
And I think when you then think about God being, because in Christian
circles, there's very much this phrase, isn't there, that God is good.
Yeah.
And Christians have a habit of saying that even when things aren't good.
Yeah.
Do you see what I mean?
Yes.
When life is not good.
Yeah.
Jan Burch: In spite of what's going on.
In spite of what's going on.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: We will often hear people say that God is good.
Have you ever found yourself doing that?
Jan Burch: Yeah.
I have.
I have
Matt Edmundson: done it.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: I guess one of the questions if I try and think a little
bit, if I was new to the Christian faith.
Yeah.
Would I.
Yeah.
Would I understand what that meant?
So if something's going on that, and it looks like God's not involved or God's
not doing whatever God needs to do.
But at the same time, I'm proclaiming the goodness of God.
Yeah.
Is that delusional?
Am I deluded?
Does that make sense?
Jan Burch: Totally.
It's a very good point.
I think as a young Christian or a new Christian, you would be.
Totally baffled by that, but I think what the Christian is doing is
reminding themselves that in spite of what is going on all around me,
I know that God is unchangeable and unmoving and God is always good.
So it just because something bad's happening, it doesn't
mean God's any different.
Yeah.
God hasn't changed.
I think we often do say that as a reminder, it's like you
speak into your spirit, yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
And in the Psalms, David.
But you're right though.
Yeah.
David would often speak to himself wouldn't he?
And he would remind himself of the goodness of God.
And how God was in fact good.
Yeah.
Irrespective of what was going on around him.
Yes.
And I think it's, it can be hard to understand that concept, I think.
Yeah.
Quite rightly, I think people could say that is that feels like you're
slightly deluded, or that you're like a crutch, or you're convincing
yourself that something's true, that's not because God was good.
Why would you be in this mess?
And actually, my understanding of God is not that he will keep me out of
every mess, but he will be with me in every mess, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
And I think it's a good analogy.
We'll talk a bit about, with the parent analogy, that actually,
I think I'm a good parent.
I am a good dad.
But I don't solve all the problems for my kids.
No.
And I think that's part of being a good dad.
Jan Burch: And nor are you meant to.
Yeah.
I just think the whole parenting thing and looking looking at things
in that context We, yeah, I've just totally lost my train of thought.
Completely went then, I'm sorry.
No,
Matt Edmundson: not at all.
Jan Burch: Middle aged
Matt Edmundson: women.
I'm not saying that, I'm not getting involved in that conversation.
Just say what you said a moment ago.
So the goodness of God, as a parent, it's not my responsibility
to solve every problem.
What I was going to say.
Jan Burch: Okay, you've figured it out.
Sorry.
Go for it.
What I was going to say is the reason sometimes people can say, Christians can
say things like that, that God is good and blah, blah, blah, is because we know him.
We have a relationship with a person.
Yeah.
He's not just somebody that we've we've learned about.
Yes, we have learned about him in, through the Bible and stories.
But most of us now, many of us would say that we've entered
into a personal relationship.
Yeah.
So it's for that reason, we know, even though circumstances
are often very difficult.
And life is difficult.
It doesn't change who God is.
No.
And God is good.
All the time.
Yeah.
And he is goodness itself.
Yeah.
Like it just as he is love.
He's not just has love.
Yeah, God is love.
Yeah
So I think once you get to know somebody You then know their characteristics and
you then would say that he they would never do that Yeah, you know because I
know them so We you know as we get to know God more and more Deeper and deeper then
we will be able to say that God is good.
Yeah
Matt Edmundson: No, I love that.
Absolutely love that.
I think it's let me just, I'm just going to do something real quick.
I'm going to zoom this one out.
Oh, no, zoom in.
There we go.
Hello everybody.
Sorry about all the camera issues.
Hopefully you can see us all okay.
It's just going to be a little bit funky on Instagram.
So we're going to have to come a little bit closer.
Jan, come in a little bit closer.
Okay.
Oh, left the chair.
. There it is.
Don't be shy.
Let's get a bit closer.
'cause they no one.
There you go.
No one can see us.
It's just lean in.
Lean in.
So yeah.
So the goodness of God then.
Yeah.
So you think it's foundational to the Christian faith?
. Jan Burch: I think it's the very nature of God.
Yeah.
It's the essence of who he is.
Therefore, we're made in his image.
And we are, aiming to be more like him.
So goodness ought to be, could be a part of our characters.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I have to remember on days like today, when I'm stuck in bed due
to MS pain, that God is good.
Bless you, Nicola.
Yeah, and it's a really interesting tension that you have to walk coming
back to that point you mentioned earlier about the belief in the goodness
of God, despite my circumstances.
Yeah.
And that God is fundamentally good.
Yeah.
And, but the outworking of what that means, partly because the plan of God
is not just about me, the plan of God is about the whole of mankind, right?
Yeah.
The whole of the world.
And so I think God is always thinking on a much bigger level.
Yeah.
But at the same time is still very interested in life and in the
pain that we're going through at the phase of this phase of life.
Yeah, I think it's very important to remind ourselves that God is good
because I think it's easy to forget that.
And I think it's easy to.
judge the goodness of God by the circumstance that we're living through.
So if life is good, God is good.
Yeah.
And, we often joke about that phrase in our house, happy wife.
And it's a bit like that, if life is happy, then God is good.
Yeah.
And God is real and God is answering prayer.
But if life is not like that, then we struggled sometimes to believe.
That's a bit shallow,
Jan Burch: though, isn't it?
That's a bit shallow.
That's almost it's easy, isn't it, to be happy and to be believe the best
of anyone when things are going well.
Yeah.
But it's, when things aren't quite so good on a Monday morning, when
you've got a flat tire or blah, blah, blah, you've ran out of, Yeah,
ham to make sandwiches or whatever.
Those common things.
I'm
Matt Edmundson: loving these analogies.
Jan Burch: Does this happen on a regular basis?
Yeah, sometimes it does.
Can be quite regular.
Feeling your pain right there.
And it's all, it can go downhill quite quickly.
Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it can.
It can.
But God is fundamentally good.
I love what Will was saying at the start is like he was talking about how the
way we use the word good at the moment.
It's lost its, it feels like it's lost its oomph a little bit.
It's lost its meaning.
It's lost its sort of its mojo.
Yeah, or the weather's good, or this is good, or yeah.
Do you remember the first place the Bible uses the word good?
Jan Burch: In creation.
In
Matt Edmundson: creation.
Yeah.
The Bible says it.
He saw it was good.
Yeah, correct.
The heavens and the earth and said it was good.
Yeah.
And and then he he creates everything and it was good.
And I think if that's the definition of goodness that's
the definition of good thing.
Yeah.
I think we've got some way to go to redeem that word in our thinking.
That actually, when God uses the word good, he's talking about creation.
The creation of world was good.
Yeah.
Whereas we use it as though it's okay.
And I think sometimes we've underestimated is the wrong phrase.
But we've devalued is a much better word.
Yeah, you're right.
Devalued the word good.
Yeah.
And what it means to us.
Yeah.
And I think, so when we say that God is good, it's not oh, God's all right.
And, but God is good.
He is this is insanely good.
This is, awesomeness that is and massive.
It is just, it is the way it is.
Yeah.
And I think, nicholas put in the comments, they've just popped up here.
Everything is awesome.
Matt will mention this in his talk, didn't he?
The Lego thing using the word awesome.
Everything is awesome.
And I just put in the comments to Nicholas.
I said, thanks for that.
Cause I've now got that stuck in my head.
I know.
I've got that song going around and around.
But everything it's, but if everything is awesome, nothing is awesome.
Yeah, exactly.
You've got to have that sort of contrast.
Haven't you?
Apparently.
And the same if everything's good, then I remember sitting down with Felicity
Jeffery once, who's a dear friend, and she's just an absolute legend.
And Felicity was very much she was like, she was almost telling me
off for overusing the word awesome.
Yeah.
And she's I've had enough of people saying all that panini was awesome.
It wasn't awesome.
God's awesome.
And I think it's a, in some respects, it's the right thing to
do just to reframe your vocabulary.
Yeah.
You know what you mean by words like awesome.
Yeah.
Good.
Although I have a t shirt on that says, I don't know if
you can see it to the camera.
Oh, yeah.
Jan Burch: Sorry.
What is it?
It
Matt Edmundson: says create it awesome.
You
Jan Burch: have been created.
Matt Edmundson: Awesome.
Jan Burch: Yeah, you are awesome, Matt.
Matt Edmundson: And so I think it's, yeah, I think in that phrase,
it is actually, this is a t shirt designed by my daughter, by the way.
Oh, wow, really?
Yeah.
And it's a little catchphrase I have that Yeah.
It's just a burden we have to bear.
Yeah, exactly.
When I sign off a podcast, we're created awesome, it's just
a burden you've got to bear.
And I think, yeah, it's one of those things where, actually, yes,
I was created, By an awesome God.
Yeah.
That is awesome.
Yes.
A panini.
It might taste good.
Yeah.
Jan Burch: Nice.
Matt Edmundson: Nice.
Flavoursome.
But it is not awesome.
No.
And yeah, take his awesome on a Sunday, says Matt.
Oh yeah, I love that, Andy.
Andy says, that's why it's called the Great Outdoors because it's not just good.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Again, just redeeming words.
There was a book written by Jim Collins, which is actually quite an
interesting book, if you've never read it, especially in the business
sphere called From Good to Great.
There was this journey from good to great.
And there used to be this thing years ago, which says, we don't want to be good.
We want to be excellent.
We don't want be an eight outta 10.
We want to be a 10.
Outta 10.
Jan Burch: Yeah.
Matt Edmundson: It caused insane levels of burnout, by the way.
Can imagine insane levels of burnout, but let's not go there.
Goodness.
Wow.
But it's this whole idea from good to great.
Actually it's from good to good.
God is good.
When we use the word properly and rightly.
Yeah.
But yes.
God is good.
God is great.
God is awesome.
God is all of these things.
Yeah.
But tying that back in with this.
So we're talking about goodness in relation to the fruit of the spirit.
So how do we manifest goodness?
Because by definition, a fruit of the spirit is something that grows in us.
Yeah.
And we're talking about wholeness, we're in a series about wholeness
and about how to become whole.
And so whole people are good people, are people that have goodness in their lives.
Jan Burch: What does that look like?
So I think it's someone who's has morality who is virtuous.
Now, that's another word that we, we don't use very often.
But you would say that someone who is good.
Yeah, it's generally of good character.
Yeah, so they're a decent person.
You probably would expect that they'd be kind that they'd be
patient that they'd be sincere yeah
But did mention that sometimes it can be false.
Yeah, you can pretend to be good.
Yeah, but it's everything, it comes down to the fruit.
Yeah.
Jesus said, by the fruit you shall know them.
If someone's heart is not good, It will come out eventually.
Yeah.
You know what?
None of us are perfect.
I wish I was perfect.
But there's some days where I'm not.
Yeah, not many, but there are a few occasions.
Yeah.
But I do.
I just think, yeah.
Yeah, but we don't want, we want solid goodness.
We want the world needs people to be credible.
Yeah.
To be sincere.
Yeah.
To be honest.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Jan Burch: And we live in a world of fakeness, and I just think when you meet
somebody who's pure of heart, like almost a child at times, the way they, if you
ask a child a question, they will say they will spell it out very as it is, yeah.
And I think sometimes we dress things up too much and we You know, we puff
it up and we just need to be quietly
who we are, yeah, I do.
We don't need all the frills and we just need to be, Jesus didn't have frills.
No.
He was,
he just was who he was.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Yeah,
Jan Burch: but I think we've become afraid of, I think in it,
we live in a world of hype, of a hundred percent of fantastic, and
it's not really who we are, when you close the door, it's, as Will said,
it's exhausting to be surrounded by pumped up people, blooming heck, yeah.
That's not real life, is it?
Matt Edmundson: No, I think it's an interesting one, isn't it?
Because one of the things that we noticed within church a few years
ago was this drive for excellence.
So the church, not just our church, the church generally was, there was
this constant strive to be excellent.
And if things weren't excellent, if things weren't the best they could
be, yeah, on the belief that we serve a great God, and we should actually
bring our best to him every time.
Yeah.
And then people were like something's wrong, we need to fix that.
And there's this constant striving.
And I think it like I said earlier, and I think we'll say that,
it leads to a lot of burnout.
And you can't live like, the belief that good is good enough is actually
quite a liberating I was just gonna
Jan Burch: say
Matt Edmundson: it was
Jan Burch: set you
Matt Edmundson: free.
Yeah, it's not that you're necessarily happy with imperfection.
But it's a realization that perfection is God's domain.
And in the meantime, good is good enough.
And the goodness of God being manifest in my life is not me being perfect.
Never has been, never will be, but it is about, like you say, I think it's
a good foundation, isn't it, for the kindness of God and all these other things
to come in, for not striving, for not trying to be something that I'm not, for
being honest, for being kind to people.
All those things that you mentioned, I think it's super, super important.
And yeah I really this topic of goodness because to be whole I
think you've got to wrestle with it.
And I think you, if you're not a Christian, actually wrestling with
this idea of am I a good person?
This is something that I hear a lot.
I am a good person.
I don't deserve this or I do deserve that because I'm a good person.
I'm trying to manifest this in the world because I am a good, like
everything's dependent on your goodness.
Yeah.
But by whose definition of good, right?
Who is defining goodness in your life?
Is it you?
Yeah, is it society?
Because, society will have a very different definition in a few weeks time.
Whereas if it's God your definition of good and God's
gonna be very different, right?
And so you're gonna fall way short of that standard.
Yeah, and I think this is part of the Christian message, isn't it?
That fundamentally, when you talk about being good, being a good person you
have to understand by whose measure you're using to measure that, because
actually what you perceive good, somebody else might perceive to be
bad, and the opposite of good, right?
So let's say I think that free will is a good thing.
So then that works out as actually, let's take that down
the road of free market economics.
So I might say actually, something like democracy and capitalism is a good thing.
Now I've experienced that's what I know, that's what I experienced.
And so this is what we did, isn't it?
We were like democracy and capitalism is a good thing.
So let's go and implement that in the rest of the world.
That backfired.
Because it turns out what's good for you is not good for everybody else.
And so by what definition, I keep coming back to this, are we
using to determine what is good?
And when God says he is good, he is determined, he is the
very definition of that.
So what is good?
God is good.
Only God is
Jan Burch: good.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
So that's the definition, isn't it?
So what is good?
God is good.
Okay.
That I think puts a very different slant on it and a very different feel about it.
So being a good person is a noble cause, but it's a fundamentally flawed cause.
Yeah.
If you're not totally clear on what the definition of the word is.
That's
Jan Burch: right.
I think we've like many words, we've, society, we've ruined them, so it's
a shame really, because it needs almost to be re sanctified, that word.
We've really understood what it really meant.
We wouldn't use it as, as often as we do.
So I, I really do think like in all seriousness that we need
on a personal level to improve and increase our vocabularies.
I was watching something the other day and a man has just gave
himself a challenge of learning.
Say 10 new words a week or a month.
And every time he was tempted to say, Oh, it was fantastic.
He would say it was really, it was interesting and it was thought provoking.
And he, he'd stopped using the word fantastic.
So consciously a little challenge for us all.
Try and increase your vocabulary so then the words that are like awesome,
like goodness, like I love, you're using it in the, in a proper way and
a way that will have more meaning.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, exactly.
No, I love that.
Love that.
Jan Burch: Do you love that?
Matt Edmundson: Love it.
You mean, you agree is what you mean.
I do.
And I think it's very thought provoking.
It challenges some of the preconceptions that we have.
Because it's an interesting point that you raise, though, because it is so easy just
to let certain words roll off your tongue.
Yeah.
And Actually defining what you mean instead of just using placeholder words.
Yeah,
Jan Burch: it's empty and
Matt Edmundson: hollow.
It's tricky because you have to sit and you have to sit and think about what
is it I'm trying to actually say here.
Yeah.
And I think validating it.
So that is good.
Why is that good?
That's good because of X, Y, and Z, I love that.
Why do you love that?
I love that because of X, Y, and Z.
So I'm starting to validate what I say, rather than just letting it be a word
which rolls up your tongue, which is really important, I think, when you
give praise to, or feedback to others.
Often say to people, Oh, you're a legend.
It's a phrase.
Jan Burch: But we know though, Matt, that your, it comes from your heart.
So you are a really encouraging, kind man.
I think you're very for you for people.
So that we receive that you do say legend a lot.
You do say awesome a lot.
But you mean that you're the end.
Your heart is behind it.
Matt Edmundson: No, I get it.
But it's still
Jan Burch: wrong and annoying.
But we understand where it's coming from.
Yeah, and you need to get some new words but we really appreciate
Matt Edmundson: it.
Thanks, Jo.
You're wrong and it's really, excuse me, wet the whistle.
But no, I think it's really powerful to I like your challenge in the
sense of validate what you're saying with your vocabulary.
So people understand it a bit more.
And I think it makes us
Jan Burch: think.
Before we speak a bit more.
Do you know what I mean?
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Matt, he's just quoted you.
It's still wrong and annoying.
You understand how many times he's now going to quote that back.
Thanks, John.
Jan Burch: I'm your biggest fan, Matt.
I really am.
Absolute
Matt Edmundson: legend.
Jan Burch: I'm not really a legend.
There
Matt Edmundson: you are.
Absolute legend.
Written in the annals of history.
Jan Burch: Yeah,
Matt Edmundson: not the a nules, annuals, annals, I've no idea
Jan Burch: annals of history,
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I think that's what it is.
Anyway, look, gosh, the time's gone already.
Promote the Zoom, says Matt, what's happening next week?
That's a really good question.
I don't actually know what's happening next week.
We're going to carry on the Fruits of the Spirit.
I think, actually, no, I do know, Sharon's talking next, Sharon's doing the talking.
Oh, brilliant, yeah.
My good lady wife is going to be.
Your beloved.
I'm looking at the wrong camera.
I keep looking at the wrong camera.
Sorry, it's this camera here.
This is my camera now.
So yeah, Sharon's going to be with us next week, carrying
on the fruits of the spirit.
And looking at that.
So yeah, very excited to carry on.
Make sure you do come join us.
Hopefully next week, the tech will be working fine.
Oh, don't worry.
Yeah.
Very bizarre.
But yes, do come join us.
Make sure you like and subscribe.
The Crowd Church, wherever you get your, wherever you're watching from, really.
Yeah.
Whether it's YouTube, Instagram.
Whether you're listening to the podcast, whatever it is.
Do come join us.
Is it live next week?
Yes, it will be live next week.
Are we going to have a day of the week?
Oh yeah.
That we're good.
Like Thursday's being kind.
It's very, yeah, it's your choice actually.
Andy, that's reminded me.
If you listen to the podcast of the podcast, I keep wanting
to say the show on the podcast.
If you listen to Crowd, it's 'cause I do a podcast during the week.
Yeah.
If you joined us last week on the live stream, we talked
about having a kindness day.
That was brilliant.
And I happened to mention Thursday.
I think it was just a random day that I played.
Did you do
Jan Burch: it?
Did you do the whole Kindness Day thing?
Matt Edmundson: You thought it was brilliant, but did you do it?
I
Jan Burch: think I did one thing, yeah, that I wouldn't normally do.
Matt Edmundson: Can you say what it is?
I
Jan Burch: can't remember, but I remember What did I do?
It was a big impact.
No, I did do Oh, yeah.
I gave my neighbour Some fruit and vegetables.
Matt Edmundson: Very good.
Yeah, very good.
So yeah.
What did you guys do?
Did you do a kindness day during the week?
What day was it?
And what did what happened as a result?
And are you going to keep up the practice?
Because yeah, I think that's a really good.
It's a really good thing to do.
But what is a good thing to do?
Because kindness is a godly thing.
So are we gonna have a day of the week that we're good?
Yeah, I think just mix it together with kindness.
Have a good and kind day.
I think that would be really interesting and let the goodness
of God be manifested through you.
by demonstrating kindness.
Yeah, sticking with it.
But good question, Andy.
I like that remind I even wrote down in my notes to ask about
it and then Completely forgot.
Did
Jan Burch: you see Matt, my kindness was locking myself away from the world.
Matt, that's not, that's sad.
Matt Edmundson: That's not, I think he's just playing with you.
That's not kindness.
Jan Burch: That's not kindness.
Matt Edmundson: No, not at all.
Yeah, have a good and kind day.
Thursdays are a good day to be good and kind, I think.
So keep doing that and let us know your stories.
We'd love to hear what's been going on.
But yeah, I think that's it from us.
Thanks.
Jan Burch: Yes.
Just read the scriptures that Will's talked about.
Yeah, go with them again.
Psalm 23, Surely goodness and mercy shall follow you all the days of your life.
Love that.
Amen.
Do you know
Matt Edmundson: when the word follow I heard somebody say to me once, when the
Bible says in Psalm 23 that surely the goodness and mercy will follow you all the
days of your life, which is a great thing.
They use this explanation.
They said the word follow means to be in hot pursuit.
On your tail is in hot pursuit of somebody or a police officer is in hot pursuit.
And it's God's goodness and mercy is in hot pursuit of you.
It's amazing.
Love that.
That is awesome.
That's radical.
That's life changing right there.
Yeah.
So listen, thank you so much for joining us.
It's been great being with you talking about the goodness of God.
Thanks for bearing with us the tech issues.
I can't promise there won't ever be tech issues cause it's a live stream.
There's always going to be tech issues, but it's nice that you
can just rock and roll with that.
I appreciate it.
So yeah, come join us next week as Sharon carries on the conversation
about the fruits of the spirit.
I'll be back hosting.
I'm not sure who's hosting next week, actually.
Jan Burch: It should be me, but I'm on call, but I'm with you the week after.
Matt Edmundson: Oh, so you're back in two weeks?
Yeah.
Very good.
Yeah.
You should probably tell people what you're on call doing,
what that actually means.
Jan Burch: I'm a midwife for home births.
Ooh.
So I might be called to a home birth next week.
Matt Edmundson: Ooh, so you might be watching Crowd Church
while delivering a baby.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's just awesome.
Jan Burch: Hopefully it'll come out within the hour.
Matt Edmundson: Childbirth's got to be an awesome thing.
You've got to look at childbirth and go, that's awesome.
That's incredible.
It is.
Jan Burch: Yeah, absolutely.
It's a miracle.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Do you get that sense every time or is it all it's just all part of what you do now?
There's
Jan Burch: parts of it that you, that always, you think, wow
how a human body has done that.
Yeah.
It is amazing.
It is incredible.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, seeing life arrive every day.
Incredible stuff.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I need to, it's Charlie.
Good.
It's Jolly Goods.
I'm gonna be monitoring my vocab this week and I'm gonna be going Oh.
So that's, no,
Jan Burch: I'm not really having to go.
We all do it.
All of us.
It's just a challenge to us all.
No, I think it's important because you don't want
Matt Edmundson: trivialize things really.
No.
And yeah.
But that's good.
Enjoyed it.
Lovely.
This conversation.
Yeah.
Thank you, Jim.
Me too.
Thank you, Matt.
Thank you so much for joining us, ladies and gentlemen.
Have a fantastic week wherever you are.
Sorry we've overrun a little bit, but yeah, have a blessed week.
We'll see you next week.
Thank you so much for joining us here on Crowd Church.
Now, if you are watching on YouTube, make sure you hit the subscribe
button as well as that little tiny bell notification to get notified
when we The next time we are live.
And of course, if you are listening to the podcast the live stream podcast,
make sure you also hit the follow button.
Now, by smashing the like button on YouTube or writing a review on your
podcast platform, it helps us reach more people with the message that
Jesus really does help us live a more meaningful and purposeful life.
So if you haven't done so already, be sure to check www.
crowd.
church, where you can learn more about us.
As a church, more about the Christian faith and also how to
connect into our church community.
It has been awesome to connect with you and you are awesome.
It's just a burden you have to bear and hopefully we'll see you next time.
That's it from us.
God bless you.
Bye for now.