Speaker: 00:00:00

I've spent about a week in Boston while I was going around the States many years ago now,

but it's a lovely city.

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Yeah, I really like it.

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It's a really great place.

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Yeah.

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Everything's looking good.

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All right, let's do this.

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This week, we explore what is arguably the most consequential event in the creation of the

United States, reshaping the Western world by enshrining new concepts of liberty, equality

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and self-governance.

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So I want to know what really caused this event, why did people risk their lives for it

and how are modern-day debates about power, justice and identity still shaped by it?

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As I ask...

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What is the American Revolutionary War?

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To discuss this, I am joined by a historian of the American Revolution and the

award-winning creator and host of Ben Franklin's World, which you should absolutely listen

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to and I'll link to in the show notes for you all.

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Her work, both academic and public, shines in exploring how early Americans navigated 18th

century complexity, loyalty and revolution, community and conflict, and the realities of

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freedom and the challenges of pluralism.

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She's also the founder of Scholar.DIY.

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a public benefit company that empowers scholars to transform their expertise into

compelling digital stories.

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So a huge, huge hello to Liz Covart.

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Hi Liam, thank you so much for having me.

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uh I love the American Revolution, so I'm excited to be here and talk.

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Yeah, I'm really excited to learn more, know, for all of the conversations I have about

America and American history, the revolution is just something I have not covered nearly

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as much as I feel I should do.

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So I'm excited to get into this.

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Yeah, it'll be a fun conversation.

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And of course, you know, I'm Ben Franklin's world.

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We cover early American history from 1450 to 1820, which was a really niche topic when I

started, you know, a little over 11 years ago.

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But uh the American Revolution is our sweet spot and our home and probably because it's

not just, it's not only a very fascinating period, but it is my area of expertise.

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Yeah, and I think there's just like naturally like more modern American history is just a

little bit more engaging and easier to kind of get people into.

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But I mean, considering how many millions of downloads you've had on Ben Franklin's world,

clearly there is a fascination still with early American history, right?

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Yeah, mean, early America is really important.

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It gives us the foundation for what the United States is today.

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know, history tells us who we are and how we came to be who we are as people, states,

nations, communities.

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So knowing the past is really important.

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And the American Revolution is key if you want to understand the United States and modern

day uh United States.

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Of course, yeah.

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Well, I mean, let's, let's dive straight into it.

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I mean, a nice, easy and quick question to get us started.

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What caused the American Revolution?

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This is a question where if you asked 100 different historians, you would get 100

different answers.

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So this is purely my take on the revolution from everything that I've read and researched

over the years.

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I think we need to situate the revolution in the world that it existed in, the 18th

century, which is a world of European empires.

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And by the mid 18th century, so the 1750s especially, there start to be a lot of questions

about how these empires should be governed.

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So in the British context, right, people are asking questions of how can London, and by

that I mean the center, the hub of the British Empire, how can London best govern its

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territories that are really far flung throughout the Atlantic and after the Seven Years'

in the Pacific?

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How do British Isles extract as much wealth from these territories as possible?

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We have to keep in mind that the 18th century is a world of mercantilism.

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that's the economic philosophy that there's only a finite amount of wealth in the world.

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And so in order to enrich yourself, you have to take wealth from somewhere else.

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And this was, you know, an idea that everyone in Europe pretty much believed in and

subscribed to.

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And that's where you get these colonies forming.

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So it's how do you not just extract the natural wealth?

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So in the case of the United States, timber, uh tobacco, and these cash crops like indigo,

and uh it's too early for cotton.

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But

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indigo and rice, how do we get these valuable goods out?

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And it's also a specie drain.

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Like, again, there's this idea that there's a finite amount of wealth.

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And in early America, they bear that out because there's always a currency shortage.

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So there's lots of paper money uh being exchanged in early America.

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Other questions that they're asking is how should the Crown and Parliament protect its

colonies from encroachment of other European powers?

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and from indigenous attacks because these are people that are being actively displaced

from their homelands because of empire.

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And then how is the Crown and Parliament ultimately going to pay to govern, protect, and

extract wealth from its colonies?

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And these questions, you know, people are asking them throughout the 18th century and

probably even a bit in the late 17th century.

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But after the Seven Years War, which in the North American context is really a nine year

war,

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that takes place from 1754 to 1763, Great Britain defeats France and they defeat Spain and

they end up with adding, it's like more than doubling the size of their empire from the

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territories that they're able to capture at the end of this war.

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And so Great Britain has this problem of we now have a bigger empire than we've ever had

before.

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How do we govern it?

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And how do we pay for it?

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So these are questions and um

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Colonists in North America, because these are the longest established colonial regions

outside of Ireland, course.

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Ireland was always a kind of experimental ground for imperialism and empire when it comes

to Great Britain.

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But the North American colonies, they were funded privately because England didn't have

enough money to invest in them in 1607 and 1620.

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And so they had this long period of what historians call salutary neglect.

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which is England kind of let them do what they were going to do.

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They'd send royal governors over, but everything was locally controlled.

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And so as the empire comes in after 1763 and starts to say, no, this is a function of

imperial government in Great Britain, not to be based in the colonies, the colonists

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really reject that idea.

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They start to feel the government encroaching on their lives and taxing them without

adequate representation because parliament does not include members of the colonies.

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Yeah.

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And of course, you know, the, the, the famous saying no taxation without representation.

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I mean, that's where it comes from.

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And then, you know, to give that some modern day context, I mean, it's to a much lesser

degree, you can kind of argue that sort of what a lot of Scots, um, sort of argue in terms

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of, you know, fighting for Scottish independence now in the, you know, that sort of

devolved system, you know, works very well for the people in the middle in charge, you

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know, but then when, when you kind of look back to what happened in America, it's kind of

the same thing.

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It didn't really work so well for everyone else because the whole system works so long as

it's feeding back, well, to the king, really.

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And I think another thing we have to keep in mind, this is the 18th century.

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We don't have the internet and instant communications.

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It could take more than a month to get a message from North America to England and vice

versa.

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Three weeks was like the fastest that it could happen.

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And a lot can happen in that time.

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And so there's also a lack of information.

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On Ben Franklin's where we spoke with a historian called Max Edelson.

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And he talks about how after the Seven Years War, Great Britain is just trying to get a

handle on its empire.

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So it sends out a lot of mappers and surveyors and cartographers to try and map its

empire.

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So it has some geographic information about these territories that it now controls or has

had control in an effort to consolidate power in the empire to make it more informed.

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And so you do have these tensions that are at play.

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And I think those are the biggest causes.

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of American Revolution.

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I think you can think all stick all of the ideas and the economics and all the various

points that people argue into that framework of negotiating empire.

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Yeah.

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And I wonder as well, just, you know, how much the, the, the British empire in this

particular instance, sort of leverage the, the, the, power of, of the church and a faith

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to kind of unite everyone.

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Because, know, as, as, know, America into this age of enlightenment, where suddenly, you

know, reason and logic was starting to win people over more than simply faith.

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Um, it, it started to perhaps.

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put the wills in place for what eventually became this sort of uh sense of resentment.

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I think it depends on the region you're talking about.

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The Anglican Church, the state church of England at the time, and even still, I think, uh

they're very powerful in places like Virginia and the South.

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That is where the Anglican Church is a state church.

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But if you think about the way that New England and Pennsylvania were founded, there isn't

a state church.

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Like, technically, it's the Anglican Church.

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But, you know, I don't know if this will be familiar story to your audience, but here in

Boston,

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there's the King's Chapel and that's what it's called.

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And that was the Anglican Church in Boston.

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And what happened was when they were building it in the 1680s, I believe, but it is the

late 17th century that they're building this.

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The governor, Edmund Andrews, couldn't build a church because the Puritans wouldn't allow

him to build a church.

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And if you weren't a Puritan, you couldn't own land in Boston.

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So Andrews found a loophole saying that no one owns the land of the burying grounds.

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So he encroached on the burying ground in Boston and built the first Anglican church.

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But the Anglican church was never a powerful institution in New England.

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um And in Pennsylvania, I'm not as familiar, but keep in mind, that's a religiously plural

place.

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It's not a place with Puritan hegemony like in New England, but you have so many religions

interacting that sure, it's probably the case that the Anglican church is a state church,

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but are they paying taxes to it?

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I don't think so, not the way that they are in the South.

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So I think religion is really important, and I think the way that it's talked and used as

a tool of empire completely varies as to what part of North America you're talking about.

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Yeah.

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So then what, do you think were the real kind of unifying triggers that started to turn,

you know, a little bit of, you know, whispering about independence into, you know, a full

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blown revolution.

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Well, I think we need to keep in mind that no one is talking about independence until

1775, 1776.

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And again, it's going to vary by region.

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Like once the war starts here in New England on April 19, 1775, people are thinking about

independence and not necessarily seriously.

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There's still the hope that there'll be reconciliation with the British Empire, but the

empire just seems like it doesn't want to even engage in those conversations.

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And that pushes people who are already kind of radically protesting things further into

independence uh territory.

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Now, people like Samuel Adams and James Otis and even John Adams had been thinking about

independence earlier than most.

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But it's a controversial idea.

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These people have just participated in the Seven Years War.

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That was the first global world war as we know world wars.

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they just helped the most powerful empire in the world become the most powerful empire in

the world in winning that.

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So they're proud to be British.

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They're not looking for independence until we get further into 1776.

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So I think that's one thing to consider, but they all are talking about what does it mean

to have imperial governance?

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Should that include representation in parliament?

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That's a question the colonists want to engage with, but that parliament and people in

England don't seem to want to engage with.

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Should it include the power to tax?

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there was, Americans were very clear.

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Parliament had the right to regulate trade, but there was this standing principle in

England that you shouldn't be taxed without representation.

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And so people in the colonies are like, we don't have representation in parliament.

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The closest thing they had was a colonial agent like Benjamin Franklin, who represented

first Pennsylvania, then Georgia, then New Jersey, then Massachusetts as well.

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They don't have an official place in government.

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He's just there as kind of a lobbyist, a colonial lobbyist talking into the ears of people

of parliament on colonial issues.

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That's the closest they have to parliament, know, parliamentary representation because

parliaments like, I believe they call it virtual representation where there's, they feel

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they have enough people in parliament that there's somebody somewhere that has a shared

belief with all parts of the empire.

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and therefore your views are represented.

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And Americans didn't quite buy that.

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So I think for the Americans case, it's really a, how are they being governed and why

don't they have a say in government?

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And if they don't have a say in government, then these taxes that parliament's imposing

really did just protect the North American territory.

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It's not even to pay off the war debt of the Seven Years War, which doubled.

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It's to station 10,000 troops along its frontier borders in North America and the

colonists.

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They resent that.

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They say no, no taxation without representation.

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Yeah.

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But you know, I, I think when we do talk about the American revolution, there's this,

there's this, I guess, sweeping assumption that it was just, you know, it was Americans

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versus the British, but actually, you know, even in spite of, know, what you said there

about the arguments, you know, for it.

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And there was still a lot of Americans that must have been quite loyal to, um, to, to

Britain and to the king, right?

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Absolutely.

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uh When you, you have to, like I said earlier, everybody in America is a loyal Briton at

this point.

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They're not looking for independence.

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And as you move closer into the fact that certain people believe, like they should have

more say in government and that this system isn't working and the revolution heats up and

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moves towards independence, a lot of people are reluctant to leave the status quo of being

loyal.

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First,

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How are these colonies who've not been able to unite in over 100 years of trying going to

fight the most powerful military on the face of the planet at the moment?

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There's questions about that.

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A lot of people who remain loyal found that the British government was serving them well,

know, especially if we look in elite territories, they have the trade contacts.

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They are participating in colonial government on governors councils and things.

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They feel that they have the ear of government.

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They're not looking to

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have massive social and governmental upheaval that affect, and that impacts their lives.

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uh So a lot of people do remain loyal.

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I think one of the most famous cases, of course, is in Benjamin Franklin's household.

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Benjamin Franklin, he is loyal to a point, but after he leaked these letters that showed

that Thomas Hutchinson was working against Massachusetts in the colonies to the colonists,

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Parliament takes him to task and he kind of deserved it.

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And he stood there stoically, he says, and took all of the blame.

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And then he has to leave England in April of 75 because he's about to be arrested.

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So he leaves to come back to the colonies.

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But he changed his mind between the Stamp Act and 1775 as to where his loyalties lie.

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And he decided America, but his son, who was really in many ways his best friend.

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His son, William, is the royal governor of New Jersey, and William decides, no, I'm not

going to support the American cause.

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There's like the colonists are kind of being ridiculous about all of this.

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Of course, Great Britain has a right to rule its territories as it sees fit.

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So he's prepared to make possible uh British imperial governance of the colonies.

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And Benjamin Franklin never forgives him.

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So this is a civil war.

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The American Revolution, we don't like to talk about it because if we talk civil war, we

want to talk about the American Civil War of the 1860s.

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But this is a civil war that saw Britain against Britain, brothers against brothers, sons

and fathers against each other, husbands and wives disagree about politics.

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So this is a very ideologically divisive war, even if no one joins the military to fight

it.

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eh And it costs the lay lists a lot.

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In the end, their property is confiscated to pay for war debts.

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Because again, especially if you're elite, you have a lot of property in terms of enslaved

people, in terms of real estate, in terms of trade goods.

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Those are all sold at auction.

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Certain people are banished from their home states, like William Franklin.

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He's not supposed to return to New Jersey.

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And you have people who have to leave their homes.

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So you see a lot of loyalists end up migrating to Nova Scotia, to Great Britain, to

London, and throughout the Caribbean because they can't

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live where they lived.

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They lost all their friends, they lost all their family because of the choices they made.

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So and I think we would see the opposite happen if Great Britain had won the war.

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People would have sided with revolutionaries, would have been forced to evacuate the

colonies because of their role in the revolution.

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So this is a really serious civil war.

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Yeah.

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okay, what year did the Revolutionary War actually start?

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So 1775 is the most consensus date.

213

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And there is some rivalry here in the original 13 states about who started what.

214

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But most people settle on Lexington and Concord, April 19th, 1775, because it was the

first pretty tough engagement.

215

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It's not the linear tactics where everybody's meeting out on a field.

216

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It's more guerrilla warfare, people hiding behind trees.

217

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and plaguing the British army as it goes out to secure supplies that Massachusetts has

been gathering for war.

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uh But they inflict a lot of casualties on the British and, you know, they get back into

Boston and they kind of stay bottled up there until the Battle of Bunker Hill.

219

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And then on June 17, 1775, you see the first full scale battle of the revolution.

220

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There is some hiding between some earthen fort works that were constructed in haste.

221

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But you do see the British and the Americans lining up on a field of battle and linear

tactics and fighting each other.

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So that's a consensus start of the war.

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At that point, it is not a war for independence.

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That will not come to be until 1776.

225

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But the war certainly gets people starting to think about a possible independence.

226

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Surely though, even the leaders of this movement who at the time, the likes of you

mentioned, know, Ben Franklin and John Adams and George Washington, these people were very

227

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much seen as the figureheads of the colonies.

228

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Surely even they must have realised there was something a bit foolhardy about a band of uh

revolutionaries trying to take on the British Empire at the time.

229

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Yeah, and I think they consider that and everybody comes to their own decision about what

side they're going to support based on their own circumstances.

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m So if you think of a man like George Washington and he was not the most indebted

Virginia planter, ah there were these Virginia planters who would always base their

231

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purchases in England based on what they hoped that their tobacco crops would yield.

232

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And it happens in Maryland and parts of North Carolina as well.

233

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But they always overestimated

234

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what their tobacco crop would be worth.

235

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And tobacco really saps nutrients from the land.

236

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So keep in mind every year their land is getting less valuable and able to support

tobacco, which is in part of the pricing issue.

237

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So they're heavily in debt.

238

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So there are revolutionaries in Virginia who make the decision, I'm going to go for

independence because I don't want to pay my British creditors um how much I owe them.

239

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There is that kind of decision.

240

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You do have people like um

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I don't know about John Adams, but there are people like minor figures em or even someone

like Alexander Hamilton who calculate and bet on the American Revolution as a way to

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increase their social mobility.

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These men, I'm thinking of Abraham Yates from Albany, which no one has ever heard of, but

he was a shoemaker turned lawyer.

244

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So as a shoemaker, he doesn't have much prospects in life.

245

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And because he's not from a wealthy family, he's also not going to have much prospects of

building up into government.

246

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Yeah.

247

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to take command of the uh Albany, New York committees of correspondence.

248

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And Albany is a big place because it is the home, it is the Northern theater of wars uh

headquarters for much of the early stages of the revolution.

249

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uh But they, know, he has to decide, I'm going to bet on the revolution because this is

the only way I'm going to have a real say in government.

250

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And you do see a lot of loyalists saying, we don't want you to have a say.

251

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And they become, they remain loyalists because they don't want a social upheaval.

252

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of American Revolution.

253

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So I think every leader, whether they're local leaders or what we now see as national

leaders, they make their decisions, sometimes on ideas, lots of times on economics,

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sometimes on politics.

255

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It's just something that really varies and is personal for everyone.

256

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Yeah, but I imagine, you know, okay, so it's, know, the conflict has sort of started in

1775, but it, it must have been, you know, helped by this kind of, I guess, propaganda

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didn't, couldn't really exist in the way we understand it now.

258

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But when you think about, um, literature like Common Sense by Thomas Paine, you know,

when, when that gets published in 1776,

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It must be really galvanizing, you know, to those who are questioning what's happening and

wondering whether to join the revolution or not.

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know, as good a leader as you might be militarily, surely it's that kind of stuff and that

sort of propaganda machine in whatever form it was in that time.

261

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That must have been a great help to the likes of Washington and other leaders, right?

262

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Absolutely.

263

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Thomas Paine's pamphlet, turns 250 years old in January of 2026, was really important.

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we basically, Paine had a way of writing that everyday people could understand.

265

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And he basically framed the idea of independence as the next common logical step.

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Like, look, we have tried X and Y and Z and none of this is work.

267

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But really we're intelligent people, like look at this enlightenment and all of its ideas

about self-governance and the rights of the individual.

268

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Surely we can do this and independence is the next logical step.

269

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And especially after the olive branch petition uh goes nowhere, like the crown's not even

willing to consider it.

270

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People are like, okay, this is the next logical step and we're going to declare

independence.

271

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Yeah, but I think that that's the difference between, you know, like John Adams, right?

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A very politically savvy person, not necessarily much of a people person.

273

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So, you know, although I guess there's a lot of arguments for and against his competence

as the president, you know, as a politician, very effective.

274

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um Would he on his own have been able to kind of stir up the support that was needed to

275

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you know, swing the revolution in their direction in a way that the likes of the Thomas

Pains of the world were able to, you know.

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Not John Adams.

277

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That was the work of his cousin Samuel Adams.

278

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uh Samuel was very much a man of the people and a rabble rouser.

279

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And he, you know, he broke bread and had good relations with the people who controlled the

North End gang and the South End gangs of Boston.

280

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And so he could basically command the mob, like, hey, we need a mob.

281

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And he'd call Ebenezer Macintosh and be like, we need a mob.

282

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And there would be people there and there would be a mob.

283

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284

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So he was a man of the people in a way that John Adams was not, and even George Washington

was not.

285

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know, everybody knows George Washington is keeping a very professional distance from even

his inner circle of officers.

286

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ah So you do rely on people like Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry of Virginia,

people who are very successful politically because they just resonate with people.

287

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It's not just the way that they talk.

288

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It's a way that they understand people because they're intermixing with the people.

289

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uh Patrick Henry was a tavern keeper before he became a lawyer.

290

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So he knows how to mix with people and read people in a way that some of these politicians

that we revere in the pantheon of early America founding fathers just never do.

291

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So I think you need both because you do need.

292

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the street smarts of how to run a revolution and get people involved.

293

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And then you also need these people who are so well-versed in ideas of government and in

history to create something new.

294

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And so I think it's a collaborative effort on that.

295

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Although I'm not, I don't, I mean, I think some of the founding fathers would have

recognized it, but I don't know how much people on the ground during that period would

296

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have recognized it.

297

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That's something I'd have to consider more.

298

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Yeah.

299

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But I think, you know, I guess what, what I was kind of working towards in my head there

was the fact that, you know, this wasn't just a top-down decision for revolution.

300

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It could only really have happened if there was support for it at all levels of society,

even if there were loyalists at all levels of society, had to have been enough support

301

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still from top to bottom for it to really have worked considering how much of an underdog

the American militia were at the time.

302

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And, and I just wonder.

303

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with that in mind, just how that early sense of underdogness and having to rally together,

you know, from the very top to the very bottom really embedded a kind of core value in

304

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what became the United States of America.

305

00:27:18,115 --> 00:27:27,422

You know, do you think the manner in which that the revolution started and was fought did

have a real impact on American identity?

306

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Yes, and I think you're making an argument that the very first historians of the American

Revolution who are based in the United States made.

307

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I think we need to keep in mind that the American people, it's not a unified concept at

this point.

308

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uh And we also tend to, when we think about unity, we think of all the American people

together, but as we discussed earlier, there are a lot of loyalists.

309

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uh John Adams is mistakenly, because he was talking about the French Revolution really, he

was mistakenly,

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quoted as saying, oh, there was a third of people who supported it, a third of people who

were disaffected, and a third of people who were loyalists.

311

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And while I don't think that's entirely accurate, I don't think it's far off.

312

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Like, I don't think we can measure it in thirds, but those are the type of people.

313

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So the disaffected, they just don't support either cause.

314

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You tend to see this a lot in Pennsylvania, especially with Quakers.

315

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But these are people that are annoyed at both sides and just want, like, the war to end.

316

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So they're not actively supporting it or hindering it.

317

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And then you have people who are loyalists who've cast their lots with the crown and

people who are revolutionaries who've cast them with the revolutionary side.

318

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So I think we do have to keep in mind how fractious things were.

319

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And also people are just starting to consider themselves as Americans, but they more like

their first point of identity is the town that they belong to.

320

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And their second point of identity is I'm from Massachusetts.

321

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I'm from Virginia.

322

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I'm a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian.

323

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ah And so the national unity that we have now, and that can be debatable given our

fractious politics, ah that is something that comes later.

324

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But early historians like Mercy Otis Warren, when they're characterizing the revolution

after the fact, they point to the fact of, we were people who only achieved this because

325

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we banded together.

326

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We are Americans.

327

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um And they cast the revolution in these lights, but that is sort of something that

happens after the fact, very close to the event, but after the event that happens.

328

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em so I do think like it's cooperation, right?

329

00:29:34,964 --> 00:29:39,347

You do need the committees of correspondence to help coordinate activities and action.

330

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That's why you get the first and second Continental Congresses is because Virginians are

actually kind of tired of people in Massachusetts determining.

331

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their fate and how action is going to happen.

332

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So they're looking for coordinated responses that both have an impact, but especially

early on, leave some space that they might be able to negotiate some sort of

333

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reconciliation with Great Britain.

334

00:30:00,890 --> 00:30:08,942

And then as Great Britain and the revolutionaries move further and further apart, ah I

think you do see some consolidation.

335

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But keep in mind, how people support the revolution also depends on how the military is

doing.

336

00:30:13,693 --> 00:30:16,288

And you have a few bright spots.

337

00:30:16,288 --> 00:30:18,899

amid which is mostly these periods of defeat.

338

00:30:18,899 --> 00:30:28,505

ah And so there is time when George Washington doesn't even think he can muster enough men

into the Continental Army to fight the next campaign season.

339

00:30:28,505 --> 00:30:40,451

It's why he needs quick victories like at Princeton and Trenton in late 1777, in early 17,

ah in late 1776 and early 1777 to kind of spark.

340

00:30:40,451 --> 00:30:42,442

Like, look, we just defeated the Hessians.

341

00:30:42,442 --> 00:30:45,494

Like it was this totally Christmas day, you know.

342

00:30:45,698 --> 00:30:51,744

kind of attack, secret attack, but it worked and people were then inspired and they joined

up for the next campaign season.

343

00:30:51,744 --> 00:30:55,097

uh But that's the story of the war throughout.

344

00:30:55,097 --> 00:31:02,214

There's just a lot of haphazard victories and lots of periods of defeat that really take a

toll on morale.

345

00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:05,686

Yes, well, I guess let's go through that kind chronology then.

346

00:31:05,686 --> 00:31:10,584

So what were those key events and moments during the war?

347

00:31:10,786 --> 00:31:12,117

We've talked about some of them.

348

00:31:12,117 --> 00:31:22,015

So I think Lexington and Concord in April of 75 is important because that's the first time

the crown and the Americans really kind of go face to face at each other.

349

00:31:22,115 --> 00:31:27,760

Then Bunker Hill on June 17, 1775 is important because that's the first full scale battle.

350

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And it was a Pyrrhic victory for the British, which means they technically won the battle,

but the Americans got what they wanted, which is they inflicted nearly 51 % casualties on

351

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the British.

352

00:31:37,268 --> 00:31:40,570

um So that was huge.

353

00:31:40,623 --> 00:31:46,127

uh Trenton and Princeton, we just mentioned in 76 and 77, because it happens December and

January.

354

00:31:46,127 --> 00:31:55,513

uh That's really key because keep in mind earlier in 1776 in the fall, they lose New York

City to the British at the Battle of Long Island.

355

00:31:55,513 --> 00:32:03,458

um And so this is really uh important because this is a period where Washington's like,

I'm not sure I can muster enough troops.

356

00:32:03,458 --> 00:32:04,939

That was the first of many.

357

00:32:04,939 --> 00:32:09,742

Then later in 1777, you have Burgoyne's defeat at Saratoga.

358

00:32:09,742 --> 00:32:17,502

This was a British strategy where they thought if they just lumped off parts of New York

and New England from the rest of the colonies, they would take the head, cut the head off

359

00:32:17,502 --> 00:32:26,121

the snake because they thought the head of the snake was thinking about every, you know,

thinking about revolution and rallying the other colonies together, which I think has a

360

00:32:26,121 --> 00:32:29,402

bit of merit based on the way things have played out.

361

00:32:29,402 --> 00:32:35,722

But they thought if they could just get the South separated, that more people in the South

were loyalist and the war would end.

362

00:32:35,722 --> 00:32:39,402

And they weren't entirely wrong in that assessment.

363

00:32:39,502 --> 00:32:46,694

um Then in 1778 and 1780, uh we do see European involvement in the war.

364

00:32:46,694 --> 00:32:53,246

So Saratoga, I don't think Saratoga is ultimately what prompted the French to enter the

war.

365

00:32:53,666 --> 00:33:04,449

Vernier was convincing King Louis XVI that they needed to get back at Great Britain and

they were just kind of biding their time until they could rebuild their navy and their

366

00:33:04,449 --> 00:33:08,494

army to a point because keep in mind they suffered a near total defeat.

367

00:33:08,494 --> 00:33:11,914

in the Seven Years War, so they really have to rebuild their military.

368

00:33:11,914 --> 00:33:20,474

So they support the Americans covertly with aid and materiel and some advisors, but they

can't jump into the war until they're ready.

369

00:33:20,474 --> 00:33:29,274

But they use Saratoga as a convenient gateway to seeing like, okay, well now we know that

they can fight, which I do think was important, but this is also a convenient excuse for

370

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us to execute the plan we already had in place.

371

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1778 and 1778.

372

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in 1780 is kind of a mess for the Americans.

373

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There's a few victories, but mostly it's just defeat after defeat after defeat.

374

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And to give you an example of that, in August 1778, the French come in and the

Franco-American force loses the Battle of Rhode Island, which loses the Port of Newport.

375

00:33:51,323 --> 00:33:55,103

They lose Savannah, Georgia in October of 1779.

376

00:33:55,103 --> 00:33:59,083

They lose Charleston, South Carolina to the British in May 1780.

377

00:33:59,083 --> 00:34:02,643

And there are just more defeats, mostly scattered through the South.

378

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that are just devastating.

379

00:34:05,013 --> 00:34:14,664

So in some ways, you really have to get to the Battle of the Chesapeake Capes, which was a

naval battle that happened just before the siege of Yorktown in September and October of

380

00:34:14,664 --> 00:34:17,547

1781 to start to see an upside.

381

00:34:17,547 --> 00:34:25,632

em And I do think the only reason we can see victories there is because of European

involvement in the war, and it's not just France.

382

00:34:25,632 --> 00:34:33,604

It's Spain expanding the war on to hits frontier in Florida and the Gulf Coast, as well as

in Europe with French help.

383

00:34:33,604 --> 00:34:39,646

It's the Dutch getting really frustrated with the British attacking their possessions in

the Caribbean.

384

00:34:39,646 --> 00:34:49,368

just, you know, this was the fourth Anglo Dutch, you know, Anglo Dutch war at this period

that carried on a rivalry that existed since the 17th century.

385

00:34:49,569 --> 00:34:54,876

And it's expanding the theater of war and forcing Great Britain to say, OK,

386

00:34:55,470 --> 00:34:57,512

We're fighting for our empire.

387

00:34:57,512 --> 00:34:59,544

What territories are really important to us?

388

00:34:59,544 --> 00:35:01,075

And they make key decisions.

389

00:35:01,075 --> 00:35:02,977

They're key strategic decisions.

390

00:35:02,977 --> 00:35:07,281

Our sugar producing colonies in the Caribbean are really important.

391

00:35:07,281 --> 00:35:13,286

The new trade ports that we have in India that we gained at the end of the Seven Years War

are really important.

392

00:35:13,286 --> 00:35:20,572

And protecting homeland England from being invaded by the French and the Spanish are

absolute keys.

393

00:35:20,773 --> 00:35:22,154

And so they...

394

00:35:22,316 --> 00:35:27,971

start pulling men from North America and never delivering on promises for more men or more

material.

395

00:35:27,971 --> 00:35:34,518

And I think also part of that is this war has now been going on for a long time and the

people of Great Britain are just tired of it.

396

00:35:34,518 --> 00:35:41,624

It's a money suck to them and they don't seem to be, despite these British victories,

they're never making headway, they feel like, in ending the war.

397

00:35:41,624 --> 00:35:48,030

ah And so yeah, those are the kind of the military and the politics of the war.

398

00:35:48,194 --> 00:36:00,254

I mean, if only the British knew that there was a whole heap of oil and gold to be found

in America, they might not have lost interest so quickly, But I feel like it makes

399

00:36:00,254 --> 00:36:08,214

complete sense to me that, you know, the French and the Spanish and the Dutch, they all

kind of had some schools to settle, which, you know, prompted them to, you know, help out

400

00:36:08,214 --> 00:36:09,154

the Americans.

401

00:36:09,214 --> 00:36:16,664

But there was surely the risk of a bit of a lose lose for the Americans, though, in the

sense that, you know, if they did...

402

00:36:16,814 --> 00:36:26,720

use Spanish or French particularly, you know, help to fend off the British that they would

end up just ultimately, although getting victory in the short term, having to then fend

403

00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,042

off those empires a few years down the line, right?

404

00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:37,773

Yes, I mean, I think they hope that the Treaty of Amity and Commerce with uh France.

405

00:36:37,773 --> 00:36:40,544

So they actually signed two treaties with France.

406

00:36:40,544 --> 00:36:45,176

One is a treaty of alliance and war assistance, and the other one is a treaty of commerce.

407

00:36:45,176 --> 00:36:55,120

And it is a big lure for France to gain the trade of North America that has in part

enriched the British Empire over the 17th and 18th centuries.

408

00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,081

And so there is interest in that.

409

00:36:57,081 --> 00:36:59,382

But let's keep in mind that

410

00:36:59,488 --> 00:37:08,592

North America revolting against Great Britain and causing distractions for France's mortal

enemy at this stage is advantageous.

411

00:37:08,592 --> 00:37:21,167

they, know, I don't, France is less interested in annexing North America to its empire

than it is just seeing Great Britain not have it.

412

00:37:21,167 --> 00:37:27,470

ah And so I don't, I don't think there was ever a danger of France coming in and invading.

413

00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:31,112

North America at this stage before we know about Napoleon.

414

00:37:31,112 --> 00:37:35,846

ah But I do think, you know, it is a question of trade.

415

00:37:35,846 --> 00:37:45,645

And I do think we see this throughout the revolution and the way that the Treaty of Paris

of 1783 gets settled, where France ultimately did not want the Americans to come to peace

416

00:37:45,645 --> 00:37:54,593

with Great Britain before it could come to peace with Great Britain, because it wanted to

take the leading role in negotiating a mutual peace treaty.

417

00:37:54,593 --> 00:37:56,675

But the Americans decide, you know what?

418

00:37:56,675 --> 00:37:58,626

We have the advantageous position.

419

00:37:58,626 --> 00:37:59,887

England's ready to negotiate.

420

00:37:59,887 --> 00:38:06,762

France is not, in part because they're working on trying to secure Gibraltar back for the

Spanish, which they don't do.

421

00:38:06,762 --> 00:38:10,584

uh They treat separately from France.

422

00:38:10,584 --> 00:38:14,286

And so there is a lot of European politics at play.

423

00:38:14,587 --> 00:38:19,060

So I don't think the Americans were really worried that the Dutch or the French would come

in.

424

00:38:19,060 --> 00:38:22,252

Spain doesn't even want to be involved with British North America.

425

00:38:22,252 --> 00:38:25,550

The only reason they're in this war is because of the Bourbon Alliance.

426

00:38:25,550 --> 00:38:33,433

um They're helping a family member out in Great Britain, ah in France, fighting against

Great Britain.

427

00:38:34,094 --> 00:38:39,886

So I don't think that's a key, but keep in mind they do worry about losing.

428

00:38:39,886 --> 00:38:46,979

Men like John Adams, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, they know they'll be hung or

shot or they're gonna lose their lives.

429

00:38:46,979 --> 00:38:55,342

There's a famous saying, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but um basically the

names on the Declaration of Independence were

430

00:38:55,746 --> 00:39:02,974

That was a risky move because if they lose the war, then Great Britain has a death,

they've signed their own death warrants, so to speak.

431

00:39:03,231 --> 00:39:11,746

And surely the Declaration of Independence really was, is in itself fairly meaningless

unless they win the war.

432

00:39:11,746 --> 00:39:14,658

It's just a bit of paper,

433

00:39:16,322 --> 00:39:21,704

Yeah, mean, if they lose the, well, I think the Declaration of Independence is a little

bit more than a piece of paper.

434

00:39:21,704 --> 00:39:31,408

It does declare independence, and that would have been like a meaningless declaration if

they lose the war, but it also contains a lot of ideas.

435

00:39:31,769 --> 00:39:41,823

There are like 27 grievances against Great Britain, and there would have been 28 if Thomas

Jefferson had been allowed to leave in slavery, blaming King George III for slavery in the

436

00:39:41,823 --> 00:39:42,433

colonies.

437

00:39:42,433 --> 00:39:45,199

uh But these are ideas about

438

00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:53,279

You know, these grievances are really commentary on how they think government should be

run, how they think citizens and subjects should be treated.

439

00:39:53,839 --> 00:39:56,319

And I think those ideas would have carried.

440

00:39:56,319 --> 00:39:58,519

And I know Great Britain doesn't like to think about it.

441

00:39:58,519 --> 00:40:01,159

And we don't really think about it as Americans, to be honest.

442

00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:12,259

But as I was preparing for this interview and considering this, when we think about the

legacy and the reach of the Declaration of Independence, more than 100 nations have used

443

00:40:12,259 --> 00:40:12,632

444

00:40:12,632 --> 00:40:16,143

to declare their own independence and form their own declarations.

445

00:40:16,143 --> 00:40:25,566

The United States Constitution, which is, you know, it happens after the revolution, but

still I think a part of this longer revolution period of forming an ideal government,

446

00:40:25,746 --> 00:40:35,849

that's used by most people who have created 20th century constitutions as a model, whether

they wanna use the model as something to emulate or not, it's used as a model.

447

00:40:35,849 --> 00:40:37,970

So those ideas are still prevalent.

448

00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:40,090

And I think about my...

449

00:40:40,492 --> 00:40:48,849

not so deep knowledge, but my knowledge of England in the late 18th and early 19th

centuries.

450

00:40:48,949 --> 00:40:54,654

And you do have England moving towards abolition, which they declare before the United

States does.

451

00:40:54,654 --> 00:41:05,723

You do have uh people in parliament and British citizens seeking more rights that they

have for representation and how they should be treated as subjects.

452

00:41:05,844 --> 00:41:08,716

And I think all of that is possible.

453

00:41:08,748 --> 00:41:10,829

because the Americans wrote it down on paper.

454

00:41:10,829 --> 00:41:12,961

They put those ideas out in the world.

455

00:41:12,961 --> 00:41:19,885

And even if they didn't originate them, they articulated them in a forceful way that was

hard for everybody to ignore.

456

00:41:19,885 --> 00:41:23,397

Like you couldn't ignore them after it, especially because they won independence.

457

00:41:23,397 --> 00:41:26,659

But I don't think you would have been able to ignore them if they had lost.

458

00:41:26,659 --> 00:41:35,174

I think you would have seen a lot of reforms um and trying to reconcile British North

America back into the empire because

459

00:41:35,352 --> 00:41:39,590

Great Britain wouldn't have had the resources to militarily enforce its will.

460

00:41:39,590 --> 00:41:44,268

It would have needed buy-in from the American people for a reunification.

461

00:41:44,379 --> 00:41:45,339

Yeah.

462

00:41:45,680 --> 00:42:00,219

So then thinking about the, uh, the treaty of Paris, um, and sort of the, the, events that

actually led to the end of the war, what, were the sort of the, the sort of the defining

463

00:42:00,219 --> 00:42:02,570

moments that helped America win the war?

464

00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:08,453

I really think it's the opening of a global theater of war.

465

00:42:08,453 --> 00:42:15,168

Great Britain's distraction from the colonies plus fatigue from, you know, and it's a

comedy of follies on both sides.

466

00:42:15,168 --> 00:42:18,281

You know, if we're going to be armchair generals at the end of it.

467

00:42:18,281 --> 00:42:27,649

You know, with history, we have 2020 hindsight, so we can clearly see where General Howe

in the early parts of the war had chances to just decimate and end George Washington and

468

00:42:27,649 --> 00:42:29,871

his Continental Army, but he didn't do it.

469

00:42:29,871 --> 00:42:33,996

And there's also periods where George Washington had opportunities to, you know,

470

00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:39,671

Maybe not a death blow, but serious blows to the continent, you know, to the British army

and he missed them.

471

00:42:40,152 --> 00:42:52,983

And so there are those opportunities, but I do think what makes independence possible is

the fact that Great Britain is forced to decide where it's going to fight when Europe

472

00:42:52,983 --> 00:42:54,445

medals in the war.

473

00:42:54,445 --> 00:43:00,670

So I am kind of grateful they won the Seven Years War thinking about this as an American

because.

474

00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:07,199

That meant that they made enough people enemies in Europe or intensified animosities in

Europe against them, right?

475

00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:19,355

Everybody hates a winner, you know, um that they have to decide, do we keep North America

or do we fight to keep Jamaica and our islands in the Caribbean?

476

00:43:19,355 --> 00:43:26,146

Do we fight to keep, you know, a port like Charleston in the south of the United States or

do we?

477

00:43:26,146 --> 00:43:32,068

go out and try to secure our new foothold in India that is already bringing in lucrative

trade.

478

00:43:32,068 --> 00:43:37,731

And so ultimately, I don't think we would have really had the independence.

479

00:43:37,731 --> 00:43:42,683

I don't think we would have had independence if it hadn't been for the openings of these

global theaters.

480

00:43:42,683 --> 00:43:45,714

And that's not something we like to talk about in America.

481

00:43:45,714 --> 00:43:55,810

Like we do bring in the French, but having the assistance of the Dutch and the Spanish,

who I knew wanted nothing to do with colonies rebelling against a monarch.

482

00:43:55,810 --> 00:44:00,179

But they were there to help France and France like it's just.

483

00:44:01,729 --> 00:44:04,902

We underplay that importance and yet it was so important.

484

00:44:05,110 --> 00:44:06,010

Yeah.

485

00:44:06,612 --> 00:44:17,837

I mean, you mentioned earlier on in the conversation that when the conflict started

between the Americans and the Brits, it wasn't really about independence.

486

00:44:17,837 --> 00:44:19,839

So when did that change?

487

00:44:19,839 --> 00:44:23,373

When did this actually become a war for independence?

488

00:44:24,718 --> 00:44:26,339

That's an interesting question.

489

00:44:26,339 --> 00:44:29,991

think, again, it's going to vary as to the historian you speak to.

490

00:44:29,991 --> 00:44:34,904

Because, and this is what I love about the American Revolution versus something like the

American Civil War.

491

00:44:34,904 --> 00:44:38,206

The American Civil War was flat out about slavery.

492

00:44:38,206 --> 00:44:43,550

I mean, people have argued in the past states' rights and things like that, but really at

the heart, it's always slavery.

493

00:44:43,550 --> 00:44:45,471

The American Revolution is just so complex.

494

00:44:45,471 --> 00:44:46,651

It's complicated.

495

00:44:46,651 --> 00:44:51,126

There's different answers, like different correct answers for everything.

496

00:44:51,126 --> 00:44:55,768

And I love the fact that it's so complex because it just makes it so interesting to study.

497

00:44:55,769 --> 00:44:58,710

So when did independence become a thing?

498

00:44:58,710 --> 00:45:05,694

um I really start to think you start to see that in 1776.

499

00:45:05,694 --> 00:45:10,877

I think it's the battle, the victories at Princeton and Trenton, they help with this.

500

00:45:10,877 --> 00:45:19,302

It's Thomas Paine's common sense, kind of showing the logic, you know, in plain terms, the

logical flow of everything that they have been.

501

00:45:19,544 --> 00:45:22,757

tackling against and how there's still no resolve.

502

00:45:22,757 --> 00:45:29,133

Like the opening of this war has not prompted Great Britain to offer reconciliation terms.

503

00:45:29,133 --> 00:45:41,834

They are not willing to discuss certain things, at least of those among independents, but

there are key issues like Parliament's right to tax uh that they're just not willing to

504

00:45:42,155 --> 00:45:43,096

compromise on.

505

00:45:43,096 --> 00:45:45,527

And so I think it's that lack of compromise.

506

00:45:45,527 --> 00:45:55,293

inspired by a bit of good luck and victory in the military sense and inspired by past

actions that causes people for independence.

507

00:45:55,293 --> 00:46:04,268

And I think in a place like Pennsylvania, because keep in mind, New England is really kind

of exceptional in that they're for independence much earlier than other people, other

508

00:46:04,268 --> 00:46:05,198

colonies.

509

00:46:05,198 --> 00:46:11,874

But I think, you know, especially in Pennsylvania and New York and other places where

they're kind of hedging their bets.

510

00:46:11,874 --> 00:46:13,936

that maybe a reconciliation is possible.

511

00:46:13,936 --> 00:46:15,837

They do this even in Virginia.

512

00:46:16,214 --> 00:46:30,650

I think when you see the fact that they're not willing to compromise and then King George

III is not even willing to entertain the olive branch petition, independence becomes

513

00:46:30,650 --> 00:46:31,160

inevitable.

514

00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:41,118

So Richard Henry Lee um of the Lees of Virginia, he goes down to Virginia to the uh House

of Burgesses and they...

515

00:46:41,282 --> 00:46:49,365

I'm not actually sure if it's still the House of Burgesses at this point or a new assembly

house, but it's the equivalent of their House of Representatives.

516

00:46:49,365 --> 00:46:53,807

But he goes down and Virginia decides it's ready to declare independence.

517

00:46:53,807 --> 00:47:02,366

And so they formulate a resolution which Richard Henley really rides back up to the Second

Continental Congress in June of 1776.

518

00:47:02,366 --> 00:47:05,782

And on June 7th, he issues a resolution.

519

00:47:05,782 --> 00:47:10,004

And it's like these colonies of right ought to be free and independent.

520

00:47:10,274 --> 00:47:11,395

colonies or states.

521

00:47:11,395 --> 00:47:15,118

uh that resolution does three things.

522

00:47:15,118 --> 00:47:21,264

It gives the United States permission to declare its independence, to create the famous

Declaration of Independence.

523

00:47:21,264 --> 00:47:24,736

It gives them permission to form foreign alliances.

524

00:47:24,736 --> 00:47:33,013

So this is when John Adams goes to work on his model treaty that they use as a basis to

help secure alliance with France.

525

00:47:33,054 --> 00:47:35,646

And it gives them permission to form their own government.

526

00:47:35,646 --> 00:47:38,243

So to draft Articles of Confederation, which

527

00:47:38,243 --> 00:47:41,005

Americans like to forget was their first constitution, but it was.

528

00:47:41,005 --> 00:47:47,511

um So they get to become an independent nation, form foreign alliances and form their own

government.

529

00:47:47,511 --> 00:47:52,555

And I think, you know, by that June, like that's how people are feeling.

530

00:47:52,555 --> 00:47:55,077

um And that resolution passes.

531

00:47:55,077 --> 00:47:58,539

And then we see the, you know, the vote for independence.

532

00:47:59,581 --> 00:48:04,064

New York abstains and John Dickinson does not show up that day from Pennsylvania.

533

00:48:04,064 --> 00:48:06,686

So they get an unanimous vote for that.

534

00:48:06,814 --> 00:48:07,634

Right.

535

00:48:07,634 --> 00:48:08,425

Well, okay.

536

00:48:08,425 --> 00:48:16,917

So obviously the events following uh independence, clearly benefited the rich white men of

America very, very well.

537

00:48:17,658 --> 00:48:30,796

You've mentioned a few times throughout our conversation about slavery and I do wonder how

the revolution impacted some of the more marginalized groups in

538

00:48:30,796 --> 00:48:37,239

the US at that time or, you know, what became the US, you know, African Americans, even

Native Americans by then, you know, women.

539

00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,206

And how, how did that impact those groups?

540

00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,753

The American Revolution is something that impacted everyone in their everyday life.

541

00:48:45,753 --> 00:48:55,649

You couldn't ignore it, whether it's the economics that are impacting your pocketbook or

the armies coming through your town and taking your supplies forcefully, sometimes paying

542

00:48:55,649 --> 00:48:55,809

you.

543

00:48:55,809 --> 00:49:00,483

They actually did prefer to sell to the British because the British had money and the

Americans did not.

544

00:49:00,483 --> 00:49:04,566

uh So the revolution impacts everyone.

545

00:49:04,566 --> 00:49:07,808

But I do think at least early on, it offers hope.

546

00:49:07,808 --> 00:49:11,254

So you see this in the sense of Abigail Adams.

547

00:49:11,254 --> 00:49:12,355

You know, we hold her up.

548

00:49:12,355 --> 00:49:18,700

She is a bit elite, not as elite as Virginians because they're not as wealthy, but she's

elite.

549

00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:27,267

And she writes her husband famously and was basically like, don't you you better remember

the ladies as you form this government because we're not going to ditch one tyrannical

550

00:49:27,667 --> 00:49:29,369

king for another.

551

00:49:29,369 --> 00:49:31,811

And then John Adams basically writes her and dismisses her.

552

00:49:31,811 --> 00:49:33,412

But women are thinking about it.

553

00:49:33,412 --> 00:49:41,098

And you can see this in work like Mary Sarah Builder talked about this um female genius,

this constitutional moment that even

554

00:49:41,167 --> 00:49:47,547

Even still in 1787, there was a chance to write women into the Constitution.

555

00:49:47,547 --> 00:49:53,167

And there was this idea that women had the capacity to be active citizens in their

government.

556

00:49:53,167 --> 00:49:55,427

And ultimately that doesn't pass.

557

00:49:55,427 --> 00:49:58,507

But when they're starting these discussions, that's there.

558

00:49:58,507 --> 00:50:02,127

And that's because the revolution allows people to think about that.

559

00:50:02,267 --> 00:50:04,387

Then you see men like Lemuel Hayes.

560

00:50:04,387 --> 00:50:05,667

He's also from Massachusetts.

561

00:50:05,667 --> 00:50:07,927

Sorry for all the Massachusetts examples.

562

00:50:08,227 --> 00:50:09,122

But...

563

00:50:09,122 --> 00:50:09,913

He's a black man.

564

00:50:09,913 --> 00:50:10,873

He's a free black man.

565

00:50:10,873 --> 00:50:15,747

He's a minister out in what is now roughly the Springfield area of Massachusetts.

566

00:50:15,747 --> 00:50:17,567

So further inland.

567

00:50:17,608 --> 00:50:26,072

But he debates the merits of fighting for independence, you know, or fighting this

revolution for greater liberty.

568

00:50:26,994 --> 00:50:34,380

When you have all of these people enslaved or you don't treat men like him, free black men

like him as equals to whites.

569

00:50:34,380 --> 00:50:38,264

And so Hayes fights in the war early on and when it becomes apparent

570

00:50:38,264 --> 00:50:42,997

that George Washington is not going to allow black men into the Continental Army.

571

00:50:43,118 --> 00:50:47,762

But the Dunmore's Proclamation does allow black men in the Continental Army.

572

00:50:47,762 --> 00:50:53,547

Haynes isn't really willing to serve in the military, but he's also not willing to give up

on his country.

573

00:50:53,547 --> 00:50:56,809

And James Fortin is another example of that, although he's much younger.

574

00:50:56,809 --> 00:51:08,138

He's a black man from Philadelphia who becomes a privateer and then becomes like he fights

for freedom and equality among all people until his death.

575

00:51:08,236 --> 00:51:22,570

And then in terms of Native Americans, you know, we think about the impact on on Black

people and on women, but Native Americans are the ones who are impacted the most.

576

00:51:22,650 --> 00:51:24,450

Many tried to stay neutral.

577

00:51:24,450 --> 00:51:28,312

They just didn't have a political reason like to have a dog in this fight.

578

00:51:28,312 --> 00:51:35,364

Others like the Haudenosaunee, the famed Six Nation Iroquois Confederacy, they're divided

over this.

579

00:51:35,364 --> 00:51:37,075

The Mohawk almost

580

00:51:37,075 --> 00:51:41,358

overwhelmingly support the British and they join in that fight.

581

00:51:41,358 --> 00:51:45,220

The Oneida decide that they're going to side with the Americans.

582

00:51:45,220 --> 00:51:56,636

um And when you see what happens with land distribution and dispossession after it, you

know, the Oneida were saved some of the dispossession, but only for a short period because

583

00:51:56,636 --> 00:51:58,287

they were allies of the Americans.

584

00:51:58,287 --> 00:52:00,869

They're dispossessed ultimately in the end.

585

00:52:00,869 --> 00:52:03,500

And I think that's what happens is Great Britain

586

00:52:03,950 --> 00:52:09,170

They did not negotiate in the Treaty of Paris of 1783 to protect indigenous peoples.

587

00:52:09,170 --> 00:52:10,850

They kind of forsook them.

588

00:52:10,850 --> 00:52:18,950

But I think they did have at least intentions in the war if they won that they were going

to protect at least some indigenous lands.

589

00:52:18,950 --> 00:52:20,050

And the Americans never did.

590

00:52:20,050 --> 00:52:24,990

They just looked as the gates are open and these aren't real, they're people, but they're

not really citizens.

591

00:52:24,990 --> 00:52:25,730

They're not equal.

592

00:52:25,730 --> 00:52:26,730

They're not Americans.

593

00:52:26,730 --> 00:52:29,110

So their land is our land.

594

00:52:30,038 --> 00:52:30,402

Yeah.

595

00:52:30,402 --> 00:52:39,021

yeah, I know we went off on a few tangents there, but that's how the revolution I think

gets thought about among what we would say are marginalized peoples.

596

00:52:39,112 --> 00:52:39,412

Yeah.

597

00:52:39,412 --> 00:52:52,692

And I think the reason that I feel like that's so important is because some of the most uh

horrendous or brutality uh in America happened after the independence.

598

00:52:52,692 --> 00:53:06,042

And, know, there is an irony there that uh for a country that fought for uh freedom and

liberty and equality, uh actually, that was only really meant for

599

00:53:06,238 --> 00:53:08,189

certain people, wasn't it?

600

00:53:08,189 --> 00:53:13,966

you know, America then had the challenge of trying to put all of those ideas into actual

practice.

601

00:53:14,636 --> 00:53:24,793

Yeah, and I think it's in the implementation of those ideas that we see the revolution

fall short of at least our modern day expectations of where it would be, where it fully

602

00:53:24,793 --> 00:53:31,117

lives up to how we today defined uh liberty and equality for everyone.

603

00:53:31,117 --> 00:53:43,255

uh I think in that time period, I think during the revolution, there is hope ah among

people that it might lead to the end of slavery sooner, that it might lead to equality for

604

00:53:43,255 --> 00:53:44,367

Black people.

605

00:53:44,367 --> 00:53:50,687

I, it's unfortunate to say that like indigenous peoples, they're not even considered.

606

00:53:50,687 --> 00:53:59,947

I mean, we have to keep in mind, I think it's 1920 or no, was 1923 or 1924 when indigenous

people are actually recognized as American citizens.

607

00:53:59,947 --> 00:54:05,187

So that's quite a far removal from the revolution.

608

00:54:07,267 --> 00:54:09,847

So yeah, it's the implementation of these ideas.

609

00:54:09,847 --> 00:54:13,772

But as I said, know, scholars have done work where they were considering

610

00:54:13,772 --> 00:54:25,096

having women take a greater political role than they were allowed before 1920 or 1919 with

the 19th Amendment, they were thinking about expanded political franchise.

611

00:54:25,096 --> 00:54:36,180

And I think you can see this in places like New Jersey is always the example, but until

like, I don't know, the mid 18 teens, black people and women were allowed to vote in New

612

00:54:36,180 --> 00:54:37,100

Jersey.

613

00:54:37,666 --> 00:54:46,213

So I think you see that negotiated, but ultimately in the end, and scholars have argued

this, it's the Constitution, where basically the Articles of Confederation, they don't

614

00:54:46,213 --> 00:54:55,479

work, and there's a variety of reasons they don't work, but they were far more democratic

than the Constitution of 1787 that we still have in place today.

615

00:54:55,620 --> 00:55:00,803

And you do see men like John Dickinson at the moment as he's drafting the Articles of

Confederation.

616

00:55:00,803 --> 00:55:04,460

He puts it in the Marginalia Note, and I'm paraphrasing, but it's essentially like,

617

00:55:04,460 --> 00:55:08,013

Maybe we should abolish slavery because it's incompatible with these ideas.

618

00:55:08,013 --> 00:55:10,114

So people were thinking about it at the time.

619

00:55:10,114 --> 00:55:19,341

And Dickinson went so far as he's the only founder who freed his enslaved people and also

helped them monetarily um throughout the war.

620

00:55:19,341 --> 00:55:23,904

And basically he freed them by the end of the Revolutionary War.

621

00:55:23,904 --> 00:55:29,157

um So yeah, I think it's still a struggle today, right?

622

00:55:29,157 --> 00:55:33,268

We are constantly talking about who has the right to be an American citizen.

623

00:55:33,268 --> 00:55:34,499

What does that mean?

624

00:55:34,499 --> 00:55:39,665

What does that get you in terms of being enfranchised to participate in your government?

625

00:55:39,665 --> 00:55:43,449

em And these are questions we haven't been able to shake.

626

00:55:43,449 --> 00:55:48,774

And I don't think the United States is the only nation that grapples with this, but we

grapple with it a lot.

627

00:55:49,076 --> 00:55:58,089

Yeah, I guess perhaps in 2026, these questions are more prominent than they have been for

a long time considering the current political climate.

628

00:55:58,229 --> 00:56:11,213

But I guess to sort of bring this to somewhat of a close, I wonder how you think the

American Revolution is being remembered and memorialized today.

629

00:56:11,653 --> 00:56:15,914

And is it is it being remembered appropriately?

630

00:56:16,866 --> 00:56:25,671

I mean, I don't want I don't know about the appropriateness because I feel that that like

the revolution is kind of individual people decide on their on their own terms.

631

00:56:25,671 --> 00:56:36,037

I do think that every 50 years we all have the advantage of being able to really think

about the revolution and commemorate it in a way that we don't do so on our day to day.

632

00:56:36,037 --> 00:56:46,252

So I think that 250th anniversary is a big opportunity for us to think about the values of

the United States, founding values and what they mean and what we want them to mean.

633

00:56:46,252 --> 00:56:48,313

because the revolution is always unfinished.

634

00:56:48,313 --> 00:56:53,649

And I'm not sure it will ever be finished because there's, know, times change, people

change.

635

00:56:53,649 --> 00:57:02,197

um And what I think is great, even about the ideas in the revolution, but even in the

constitution is they were designed to change if we want them to.

636

00:57:02,197 --> 00:57:10,264

uh And so I do think it's a good place for us to think about in terms of actual events

that will be happening.

637

00:57:10,264 --> 00:57:11,645

You'll see a lot of parades.

638

00:57:11,645 --> 00:57:12,966

639

00:57:12,984 --> 00:57:19,198

There hasn't been a lot of national coordinated action and this isn't the first 50th

anniversary to suffer from that.

640

00:57:19,198 --> 00:57:25,542

So I think you'll see a lot of people on state levels uh and on individual levels

commemorate it.

641

00:57:25,542 --> 00:57:32,006

But to give you an example of things I've heard of, uh California, which is not a place we

think of when we think of the American Revolution.

642

00:57:32,006 --> 00:57:38,787

um And it's because Spanish colonization was really just starting to happen around 1776 in

California.

643

00:57:38,787 --> 00:57:50,130

The Autry in Los Angeles is going to have a wonderful exhibit considering what Southern

California looked like uh in 1776 and the indigenous peoples who were there.

644

00:57:50,130 --> 00:57:56,991

um And it's really going to be an indigenous story and in California in 1776.

645

00:57:56,991 --> 00:58:02,773

Colorado, I believe it's bicentennial of its founding from 1876.

646

00:58:02,773 --> 00:58:09,064

So they're going to combine their commemorations of the revolution with the founding of

their state.

647

00:58:09,134 --> 00:58:20,838

um Here in places, I live in Massachusetts, so I'm in one of the original 13 colonies,

you're going to see more m exhibits about individual state roles in it.

648

00:58:20,838 --> 00:58:31,681

And of course, people like to remind Massachusetts that we kind of ended in 1775, although

I would say it's at least with the British evacuation in 1776 in March, um so that our

649

00:58:31,681 --> 00:58:34,456

celebrations are almost over, but really.

650

00:58:34,456 --> 00:58:36,817

we played a big role in the Declaration of Independence.

651

00:58:36,817 --> 00:58:45,430

So I think you'll see exhibits and rivalries kind of play out the way that we do, but

you'll also see places like Missouri and Illinois, which did have battles of the American

652

00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:47,790

Revolution um celebrating those.

653

00:58:47,790 --> 00:58:59,894

So I think it's gonna depend on states and their actual involvement in the revolution or

their incontinuation of revolutionary ideals uh that were enshrined.

654

00:59:00,138 --> 00:59:00,498

Yeah.

655

00:59:00,498 --> 00:59:06,101

And considering how much we've spoken about Massachusetts in this episode, we've not

mentioned the Boston Tea Party once.

656

00:59:06,101 --> 00:59:08,482

So whether it's going to have to be another episode, think.

657

00:59:08,482 --> 00:59:16,447

oh But sadly, that's all we really have time for today, even though we've only really

scratched the surface on everything about the revolution.

658

00:59:16,447 --> 00:59:29,748

As we bring our journey today through the revolutionary water close, it's clear that this

wasn't just the story of generals and battles, but a drama of families, communities.

659

00:59:29,748 --> 00:59:32,860

and ideals that were contested at every level.

660

00:59:33,081 --> 00:59:40,368

The revolution challenged what it meant to be governed, to be free, and to belong to a

nation in ways that are still felt today.

661

00:59:40,478 --> 00:59:49,357

So I'm super, super grateful that Liz was able to join us today and kind of guide us

through that journey.

662

00:59:49,357 --> 00:59:55,152

And uh Liz, actually, please do tell everyone where they can find you in your work.

663

00:59:55,458 --> 00:59:59,113

Yeah, the best place to find me is actually through my podcast, Ben Franklin's World.

664

00:59:59,113 --> 01:00:05,242

can visit benfranklinsworld.com um and you can find the podcast everywhere in your

favorite podcast player.

665

01:00:05,242 --> 01:00:10,078

So wherever you're listening right now to America history, you can also find Ben

Franklin's World.

666

01:00:10,580 --> 01:00:11,050

Excellent.

667

01:00:11,050 --> 01:00:18,724

And of course, for those of you listening who do want to explore further, there'll be

links to Ben Franklin's world and also everything else that we've discussed in the show

668

01:00:18,724 --> 01:00:19,074

notes.

669

01:00:19,074 --> 01:00:21,335

So go and check all of that out.

670

01:00:21,335 --> 01:00:29,319

And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing with friends, subscribing to the

newsletter and following us on Patreon as well.

671

01:00:29,399 --> 01:00:31,660

All the links for that are in the show notes.

672

01:00:31,660 --> 01:00:35,442

Thank you again to Liz and thank you all for listening.