[00:00:00] Hannah: Hi, and welcome back to the Awfully Quiet Podcast. Today's episode, it's Giving Mindset Shift and masterclass. We're talking human skills, but this is not as fluffy as you think it is. We're talking skills that actually shape how people see you at work. And I've got the perfect guest for this convo. Haley Dawson, the founder of Let's Talk Human Skills.

Basically, she helps people be better humans at work, and honestly, just better and easier to work with. She runs workplace training that combines research backed ideas, real life stories, and useful tools to help people develop seven essential human skills, which we'll get into. She's also the host of Let's Talk an In-Person Conversation series designed for us to experience the human connection we're all missing out on now.

Yes, we break down what human skills actually are, but the real magic in this convo, it's what Haley makes you feel like. Maybe just maybe you've had the upper hand this whole time. If you're someone who thinks deeply, listens more than you talk and doesn't rush to fill the silence, you might already be doing the most powerful thing in the room.

We talk about showing up to interviews with Get Hired Energy, being trusted and liked without selling your soul, and turning awkward work chats into actual human conversations. So if you are in a season of change, trying to build your quiet influence or just over the performative small talk. This one's for you.

Now, if this hits, please send it to a work friend who gets it and needs to hear it. And if you're feeling kind today, please leave a five star rating wherever you listen. Alright, let's get into it. Hailey, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the Awfully Quiet podcast.

[00:01:58] Hayley: Thank you for having me. I'm really, really looking forward to our chat.

[00:02:03] Hannah: Me too. you know, we've just established it is bright and early. I love that energy. And where I start with every guest is where I really wanna start with you too, is in what's a quiet strength that has helped you in your career that is maybe a little underestimated.

[00:02:19] Hayley: Yeah, I absolutely love this question, Hannah. So my quiet strength is a willingness. A willingness to do whatever it takes to get to where I want to be, and I know where it comes from. It comes from growing up and seeing financial hardship every day and seeing what that does to people and not wanting that for myself.

And so that made me a very hard worker, not a smart worker. It made me a hard worker. I'm now learning how to be a smart worker, but for the first 16 years of my career, I worked one full-time job and then. One to two part-time jobs at any given time. And that's not something I'm recommending. It's something that's just part of my story and what I had to do, and I just had to get on with it.

And I think that's where the willingness to do whatever it takes has come from. And it's really stuck with me as well. It, it hasn't ever disappeared. It's been a golden threat. Throughout my career, you know, and I first noticed it at school really early on because I loved Spanish at school, but I was really bad at it.

Awful, actually awful, horrendous. And I just knew that I wanted to do it. And so one day I asked a teacher if they would help me to get to Spain for an intensive Spanish language course before my exams that would then get me into uni. And a few weeks later, the school had paid for my flights. I was on a plane to Spain.

I came back, I passed my exams, and I got into uni to do a degree in Spanish. And again, it's that willingness to ask, to take action, to do whatever it takes to get to where I want to be. and it's just played out in every part of my career. Whether it be the Spanish translation part that started my Spanish translation career, or the teaching part, or my research career, or now even the founder part.

You know, if something needs to do in with let's talk human skills, it gets done and it, and it gets done quickly. 'cause I've got that, that willingness.

[00:04:30] Hannah: I love that and I also love that, that this is a quiet skill for you. I absolutely agree. I think when it comes to resilience and and achieving things in our lives, we often talk about this as something that is loud, like hustling is very loud for me, but I feel like there is something in that, in that grit that you describe that is quiet and that is a lot less fancy, it's a lot less, attractive from the outside, but it's just something that you build, you build this inner strength that sustains you.

Now, you said something in there that I wanna touch on quickly is that moving from hard work to smart work, I very much relate to that because I feel I'm also somebody who. You know, hard work is, you know, I'm fine to do hard work. this is something that I feel like all throughout my career has sustained me.

This is always something that I could trust on me to doing, putting in the work, but moving into smart work, because at some point in your life you just realize hard work isn't gonna get you to that next level. How do you feel about that? What does that transition look like for you?

[00:05:39] Hayley: Yeah, I totally agree with everything that you've just said, and it's, I used to think that it was. And somewhat it is still about this turning up to work, putting in the hours, trading your time for money, you know.but I think we are seeing, especially over the past few years, we are not actually getting a lot of gain from that, especially financially.

And so I'm now looking at the way that I work and thinking of smarter ways to work. For example, and this didn't happen with, with this podcast recording that we've set up, butmaybe two years ago if someone had said, Haley, I'd love to talk to you on my podcast. Can we talk about X, Y and Z? Maybe I only know about X.

So then I would say yes, and I would run off and go and research everything I possibly could about YNZ so that I could do the recording. That's working ridiculously hard and not smart in the slightest. Now my response would be incredibly different. And I would say something like, I'd love to come and talk to you.

I only know about x. I can't touch on YNZ though. Is that okay with you? And that's just one example of not completely giving myself over to the work, you know, if it's not necessary now I don't do it. And I've got four very strong focuses at the moment, which are, building the education, the human skills, curriculum and education.

That's one.business acumen is another. content creation is another.and the fourth one has actually just slipped out of my head, so maybe I haven't been working on that recently. I'll have to check afterwards.

[00:07:29] Hannah: something about the magic of three that it is, it it, I think it's a thing. It's like the big three things that you're working on at the moment and they are front and center for you, and I love that you anchor in them because this is where I believe it becomes smart and being intentional and having something to work towards and setting clear.

Guardrails and, principles. Objectives. Like, this is what I'm working on, this is what I'm doing, and it absolutely comes through in your work. I mean the content creation, I found you on Instagram right through Elisa, who has been on the podcast before, and you do these incredible reels, like on hands down.

This is such good content that you create and I can literally tell that you put focus or that you place focus into, you know, doing this and improving this over time. I went way, way back. You've done a lot of work on content and it's incredible. and we wanna get into some of that today. where, where I'd like to start is with, you know, human skills and how they showed up in your careers.

You know, what made you think that this is something that you feel pulled towards or that this is something that's important in our careers. Was there ever a moment where you felt, I. Like there was a human skill that helped you in your career or something that, you know, why did it become so important?

Why did it become a thing for you?

[00:08:52] Hayley: Yeah, of course. So throughout my career there have been sets of very particular moments where I thought to myself, my knowledge didn't get me, that my knowledge didn't get me there.

[00:09:06] Hannah: Mm

[00:09:07] Hayley: And it's hard to pinpoint a particular moment, but there's rather a set of them. And that's every single job interview and promotion that I've received, which I used to find really, I still do find it really interesting now.

I come from a languages and teaching and research background, so I've got lots of technical skills or hard skills in those areas. But I've learned what really matters is how confident you are, how well you articulate your ideas, how well you listen to people, which is hugely underestimated how well you collaborate with people, how adaptable you are, how easy you are to work with. Human skills I noticed mattered wherever likability mattered. And likability matters a lot in job interviews. And when you're putting your name forward for promotions, you don't hire someone you don't like. You don't promote someone you don't like. They have to be great at the work and you have to like them as well.

And employers will tell you that the candidates with the most aligned skills and experience will get the role. But research shows that that's. Not even the case, right? There's some really, really interesting work that came out from, the University of Florida, and they found that a person's success in a job interview doesn't come down to qualifications or work experience.

It comes down to how pleasant you are as a person. So those people who spent time talking about non-work related projects, tried to build rapport with people, smiled, praised the organization, they were the people who were most likely to land the job. And it just goes to show that your academic achievements and your work experience will get you shortlisted for an interview that will get your foot in the door.

But once you're in front of that interview panel, it all comes down to how likable you are. And it's all about your human skills at that point. It's about your communication and articulating your ideas. It's about showing up confidently, even if you really don't feel it in the moment. It's about showing that you are an easy and adaptable person to work with as well.

And it really dawned on me when I was sort of, there was a point in my career where I was putting myself forward for these job interviews and I was getting every single one in the space of about six years. I had a hundred percent interview success rate. I'm a type A, I

[00:11:36] Hannah: We don't like you.

[00:11:37] Hayley: I know I'm, I'm just so weird and would measure this stuff, and, and would also get promoted, but not, I didn't understand why I was getting promoted because I wasn't the best person at the job. You. You don't have to be the best person at the job. You have to be the best person to work with. And that is when I noticed, hang on a minute, this is, this is not just soft skills, this is the, there's something more here.

And that's when I started to dig into it a lot more. And I think I cottoned onto it very early on, early before I even understood what human skills were before I even thought of those words, before I even understood all of the research that comes behind it as well, you know?

[00:12:24] Hannah: Hmm. Well, I, I love the way you set this up and, I couldn't agree more. I've, I've ran so many, interviews. I've done so much recruiting early in my career because I worked in hr. And it doesn't come down to, you know, whatever is on your cv, your experience, the strengths that you bring, and some of the hard skills.

But it really is that, does a hiring manager see themselves work well with you? Do they want you on their team? And, so I couldn't agree more. And, there's a couple of. Of human skills that you mentioned here, and I know there's a few in them that scare my audience. as part of that, because some of it's like a relief to hear, you know, it's not just about the functional skills.

It's not just about what's on your cv. It's about confidence. It's about likability. And I know that this can feel very daunting for, the type of personality that doesn't identify as likable or doesn't identify as as confident. and I also love that you position confidence as a skill because that means that, you know, we can do something about that.

How did you go about, what do you think, what made you confident? What, what makes a person likable? How do we, how do we go into an interview situation and, and are likable?

[00:13:39] Hayley: Yeah, that's a great question. So the way I think of confidence is, I mean, when we think of confidence, we usually think it about us feeling confident as an individual. I think of it as that, but I also think of it as. Building trust in you and your ideas. So you need to feel confident in yourself, but other people need to feel confident in you as well.

Right? And it's not just about, I think a lot of people say, oh, fake it till you make it. And, but I think this puts this in really, really high stress situations that just aren't necessary. So I think it's about identifying what you want to be confident in is the first step because. no point me looking at someone and thinking, oh, that person's an amazing public speaker. I don't feel confident anymore. Well, if you don't want to be a public speaker, you shouldn't really care about that. It doesn't matter that you're not confident in it. Right. That was actually a really poor example to use on my part, because I do think that public speaking is a pretty essential skill, because we do it every single day without realizing.

but that's, that's just, one example of sort of looking at someone and thinking, oh, I, I feel really unconfident now because that person's great at that thing. But it might just be that that's their thing. What's your thing? What do you want to be confident in? And then how can you go and get good at that thing?

Right. And it's also building trust in you and your ideas. So it's also. Communicating in a way, in a clear way without fluff, that brings people on board with you and convinces people that you are the person that is confident in this subject area. You are the person that knows exactly what you are talking about.

You are the person that can make things happen in this area. And these are all things we need to show in, in an interview as well. So confidence isn't just, showing up to the interview and sitting up straight and pretending that you feel fine in the moment. You can actually convey in so many different ways.

I love that confidence. A lot of people think that confidence has to be loud, and I quite regularly get a question that's along these lines. It's something like. Haley, how can I be confident if I'm not a loud person? But confidence isn't loud. Confidence can be very quiet as well. And I think there's a lot of power in understanding what your confident voice is, right? confident voice, for example, I would describe it as honest, sometimes funny, relatable, knowledgeable, right? That's how I describe my confident voice. If you ask me to be chatty, I'm not gonna feel confident. I can talk, but I'm not a chatty, chatty person, you know?and so I think you, you really have to just think about the words that, how, how would you describe your confident voice?

Think about those words and channel that you know.

[00:16:59] Hannah: I love that. And there is a lot of, intentionality that goes in there, a lot of self-reflection that's required in order to show up in a way that you, feel that inner power and feel that strength of like, what is it that I'm here for? What is, you know, the skill that I feel really confident in. What do I do differently than everyone else?

And how can I make sure that that comes across in an interview situation or any career situation really. And then I love what you said about confident voice, because I do think that we often. Feel like the more outgoing, charismatic, louder voices get a lot of the credit in the workplace. Certainly in interviews, if somebody can sell themselves really well, it is just a skill that feels a little bit daunting, for me, when, when it comes to interview situations.

But I love how you describe confident voice. It's, it's not just one. There's not just one tone to being confident. It can be so many different ones. And I, for me, for example, when you mention some of yours, like the knowledgeable, the funny, sometimes I sometimes get witty in these situations when I, when I feel really confident I have that, when I feel comfortable in a situation that's a side of me that doesn't often come out.

It's really just when I'm, when I'm feeling comfortable and I think I. That is some always very natural to me. Then it's not something that I try to be, it's just a ta of dark humor in there that, that, that just makes me feel like, oh, I feel really comfortable in this situation. And these have always been the kind of workplaces where I was able to thrive because I was able to be myself.

So, it there, it's a lot of self-reflection that goes into what does my confident look like? How do I show up and, what does my confident, you know, what's that tone? What's that voice? I love that.

[00:18:57] Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I teach things on Confident Voice, I use, I use celebrities and famous people as examples, right? Just the words that we all know. And if you think of, for example, Barack Obama, he's very, very considered.

[00:19:14] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:16] Hayley: voice is very considered. He has you hanging on his every word, right?

do you know the host of a chicken shop date? Emelia De Oldenberg.

[00:19:24] Hannah: I don't.

[00:19:25] Hayley: Okay. So she has this very awkward sense of humor, this very awkward interview style, but that's her confidence and it works for her, and she pulls it off beautifully. You know,if you think, for example, of Brene Brown, right? She uses a lot of data.

She's very honest, knowledgeable, also relatable, right? So it's like, just look at the people who you like or who you admire and just see their different, just observe their different ways of communicating and the different ways that their confidence shines through. And it shows that it's just so, so different for everybody.

And confidence does not mean loud.

[00:20:12] Hannah: Mm. How does one go about finding their confident voice? Is there, are there any pointers or are there any questions that you could ask yourself to uncover, you know, what, what does my confident voice sound like?

[00:20:25] Hayley: Mm. So I would say ask yourself what situations you feel comfortable in and what situations you don't feel comfortable in.

[00:20:33] Hannah: Hmm,

[00:20:33] Hayley: example, I said I wouldn't describe myself as chatty. We're having a chat now.but I mean, it's called like yapping nowadays, right? I call it nattering. I will always stick with the word nattering. I can't bring myself to say yapping, but that, that's just not me. I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable in a situation like that. But I do feel comfortable in this situation right here with you, for example. So ask yourself which situations you feel comfortable in and which you don't think of the words to describe those situations as well.

That will get you close to what your confident voice is and isn't.you might thrive in what other people would think is a really, really boring situation. Maybe your confident voice is a bit boring. That's okay because it's yours. Right? Use it. Be it, it's okay. I would also say, yeah, look at the people that you love and admire and sort of try and try and pinpoint how, how would you describe their, their voice as well, like what I just said about those, those three examples.

And also ask other people. Ask the people that speak to you frequently and say to them, how, how would you describe the way that I speak? Am I calm? Am I scatty? Am I loud? Am I quiet? Am I right? And try and get these words from, from other people as well, and then try them on. And see how they feel.use your chatty voice for a whole day at work one day.

Use your boring voice for a whole day at work. One day you'll soon find out what you like and what other people respond to and what feels like you as well.

[00:22:22] Hannah: hmm,

[00:22:23] Hayley: And then just come up with three or four words. Ten's not gonna work. You can't be everything

[00:22:29] Hannah: Yeah. Three is three is a good number.

[00:22:31] Hayley: Three will stick with three again.

[00:22:34] Hannah: Yeah. And I, and I do see how, how that clarity and having the, the three, four words in your mind when you go into situations like that, they can feel like anchors. They can feel like they ground you. It's like, this is my game plan. This is how I know I sound like myself.

And, yeah. It feels really powerful to me having that clarity and having that intentionality going into situations that don't naturally feel. Like the most comfortable situations for us. Mm, mm-hmm. I love

[00:23:08] Hayley: agreed.

[00:23:09] Hannah: I love that. Now we've chatted, well, chatted, we've talked about. There it is. talked about a couple of human skills.

Now what I'm really interested in is do you think there are any human skills that introverts are particularly good at? maybe some human skills that we underestimate or that we don't believe we're good at. you've talked about collaboration, communication, confidence is one of them that we've already touched on, and I often feel like as introverts, we believe that we're not good at these things.

Like not naturally good at collaboration, communication, because we're often seen as. The shy, quiet ones who just sit in their corner and wanna work for themselves with their headphones on. how do you feel about these? Are, are there any in there where you would say, no introvert are actually really good at that?

[00:24:01] Hayley: Yeah, so. I think each human skill has two sides, if you like.communication for example. It's not just speaking, it's listening as well. And I think introverts are brilliant listeners and that feeds into another human skill, which is relationship building. Now think of it as networking if you like, but if you don't like the word networking, relationship building, relationship building is not bouncing around the room trying to connect with as many people as possible.

You get way more out of focused conversations. And I think introverts approach relationship building and networking like. In such a masterful way. Introverts are brilliant networkers. And during a human skills workshop that I ran a few weeks ago, someone said to me, Hailey, I'm an introvert, so I don't think I'm good at networking.

And I was so shocked. I had some really strong thoughts on this. And I was saying, well, networking falls under relationship building, which is a human skill. It's a skill, so therefore you can develop it, right? And over the past two years, I've been to a 50 plus, I'd say 50 plus networking events. And I also host my own in-person conversation series, my own event series as well.

And through doing all of this, I've observed that extroverts don't make the best networkers.And no shade to extroverts. I'm one of them. Okay? But extroverts can fall into the trap of dominating the conversation or rushing to meet everybody in the room, but really truly connecting with no one, or pitching too early and selling too soon.

Meanwhile, there are introverts in the room who are, who make excellent networkers by asking thoughtful questions and listening deeply and learning about other people, and engaging in fewer conversations, but more meaningful conversations. And it really just goes to show that the loudest person in the room doesn't win.

The most thoughtful person in the room wins. And I. Have, I, I met somebody last September time. she's like an internet friend who's now become like an in-person friend. She's called Ilda and she say she isn't, she's an introvert and I have. I've seen her in rooms. She's come to my events various times and she builds relationships be beautifully.

She really does. She says I'm an introvert, but the way that she moves around the room sparks such engaging, interesting conversations. I've seen her connect with people afterwards and maintain those relationships afterwards as well. And I think introverts just do it in such a brilliant way. But as I said, no shade to extroverts.

I'm an extrovert. Even though I'm not chatty, I'm an extrovert, I'm just a considered extrovert. I'm thoughtful in my actions and can quite quickly see where to pull back my extroversion or where I need to ramp it up a little bit more. Right? And like anyone, I value human connection. Other people energize me.

I say that the right people energize me, but the wrong people for me will drain me as well. introverts don't usually drain me.

[00:27:39] Hannah: Mm. Oh, I love that. And, no, I think that you are extremely thoughtful. and I love what you said about you can either lean into your personality or you can choose to pull back at certain points and to, to play with it and to be aware of it. And I think as introverts we tend to jump too quickly, you know, into assuming, oh, because we're not naturals in a situation or because we don't feel natural or comfortable in a situation, we're not good at it.

And I think this is where we can potentially lean in a little bit more and, leverage some of these strengths that you mentioned. I've, I don't believe I've ever heard anyone describe it that way and talk about introversion as, you know, having an upper hand and building connection and being, building meaningful connections, building trust.

And you mentioned that as one of the essential human skills in the workplace as well is. Building relationships with others. you also touched on being likable earlier and, potentially building trust with, with other people. How do you think about that in, in the workplace? How do we build relationships that feel meaningful to the other person, but also to us?

I feel like when it comes to workplace relationships, they can be awfully forced or, you know, we gotta work on this project together, how are we gonna make this work? And it can, for me personally, it can take, it can take a little bit of time to warm up to other people and to, you know, really work well together.

how do we go about building relationships in a way that doesn't feel transactional, but that feels honest and authentic?

[00:29:24] Hayley: I love this question, and you mentioned collaboration a few times there as well and working well with other people and the. Most of these seven human skills are interconnected. So relationship building, I see it does connect with collaboration, vice versa. And I think that introverts can be incredible collaborators as well, and can build trust in a way that, that others can't too.

For example, if we think about being an easy person to work with, well, we, we all, we've all worked with a difficult person or people haven't. We, we all know who they are. We can all see their faces in our heads right now.but. It's really important to be adaptable. I think of it as being like a chameleon.

When you're collaborating with people, each person has their way of doing things, right? Somebody might be very, very open to new and fresh ideas. Somebody might be allergic to change, right? If you are working with a person who is allergic to change, but you are a person who loves new, fresh ideas, how are you gonna work with that person?

Now, introverts, I think, are naturally more thoughtful, naturally more considered, naturally sort of think about other people and think, oh, how can I, how can I do what's best for them? How can I serve them in a way that helps them? And that's perfect for collaboration because if you see someone who's allergic to change. You can, you can be more considered and thoughtful about how you approach that. You can drip feed the things that are going to change or make sure that you are really, really clear about something that isn't ever gonna change. You know, at least for now, you can also look at it as, you, you might have somebody who is really, really detail oriented, and then you might have someone who's just a bit sloppy in their work.

These people are gonna find it really difficult to collaborate and work together, and they're each gonna think that each other is a difficult person to work with. Right. So again, being thoughtful and considered in how, how do you approach this person that approaches work in the opposite way to you?

Right. How can you. Feed, I guess their sloppiness, but also get the detail that you require or vice versa. And so there are so many different traits that we bring into the workplace, but it is, I think, about being adaptable, which, sorry to bring another human skill into it, but as I mentioned, there're so they're so connected.

but it's, it's just really important to, to be a chameleon and shapeshift and change with the person that you've got in front of you.

[00:32:15] Hannah: yeah, yeah, yeah. I really resonate with that term of being a chameleon. I often feel like a chameleon. I can, you know, if so many different kinds of friendships that I often think if all my friends, like my one-to-one friends would meet, they wouldn't get on because they're also different. And I'm, I'm different depending on who I spend time with.

because it has something to do with my energy and the way I pick up the energy in the room and the energy of the people around me quite quickly. And in the workplace, I feel like it, it's extremely powerful, as you say, for facilitation. You can sense the energy in the room and you can feel something is off or they might not get along because.

Of, you know, some of the examples that you mentioned, and, I do think there's a lot of power in being that chameleon, but I do have a question about this too, because it's something that I often think about is how can we also ensure that we are truly ourselves and that we don't fall short in this, in the, in this setup and in this scenario where we're always on the lookout for how do other people feel?

How am I gonna make this person comfortable in the meeting? How can I attain to the, you know, this person's perspective and how can I make sure that everybody is, is happy and everybody is, you know, working well together in a situation? Do I, am I also going to be happy in this situation? Am I also going to be, you know, at my best or when I'm constantly looking out for, for others at work?

[00:33:49] Hayley: Yeah, this is a brilliant point. So what we don't want to do is be so much of a chameleon that we're sacrificing ourselves to everybody else in the workplace, right? That would be terrible. We wouldn't know what we liked, what we didn't, how we worked, how we don't work, who we are, we'd get so stuck, right?

So I think there's a lot of power as well in telling people how you like to work and what you need from your work, right? So what I was saying before about, for example. If you've got somebody who's very detail oriented, working with somebody who's not, and just a bit scatt and sloppier in their approach to work, which isn't bad, still get the work done right. what you wanna be doing is maybe sending them. So you are the high detail person. Maybe you wanna be sending them much shorter emails with three quick bullet points because you know they're not gonna read anything more than that. Have a really, really clear ask in your email, this is what I need from you, you know, to make sure that you are getting the things that you need as well, but you are also doing things in a way that are suiting other people.

But I do think it is, you are, you are quite right, and it's a brilliant point you made is you, you, you can't give yourself over to everyone and, and everything and constantly be on the lookout for what other people need. It's also making your needs known in the workplace as well, and telling people how they can be an easy person.

To work with, work in your eyes. It's not just about making yourself an easy person to work with, but telling other people, Hey, it's a bit difficult actually when this happens. Can we do it this way instead? How do you feel about that? You know, and just talking about it as well. But yeah, bringing your needs in a hundred percent.

[00:35:37] Hannah: Yeah, that's brilliant. 'cause I often feel like, you know, there's a chance that we blend into the background, when we're always on the lookout and, voicing how you like to work. And now that I'm thinking about it, I do sometimes notice other people do that too, is like, here's how I'd like to work.

And I often find that so powerful. and so considerate of, of other people in the project or on the team, to set some of those guardrails and to voice some of those boundaries. but at the same time, to be considerate and to flex your style a little bit depending on who you work with. I agree that this is something that, is really important in the workplace and might not be something that we have many examples of.

Which leads me to another question that I have about human skills and you talk about future proofing your career with. Human skills. do you think that there are human skills that are currently under or over overlooked or that are currently that we need in the future? Some of the skills that, don't show up as often as they should in the workplace?

[00:36:44] Hayley: For sure. So. I'm bringing another one in now. It's probably the only one we haven't mentioned so far, which is ideation. So the ability to generate and develop ideas by connecting the dots between unrelated things. Think of it as being a curious, creative, experimental thinker. Okay. I'm worried about ideation at the moment.

I'm really worried about it because it's a strange thing to be worried about, but I see information being spewed everywhere, but we are not connecting the dots, and I think connecting the dots is really what's needed going forward. Because if you think about it, information or ex expertise isn't the information that you know. It's being able to synthesize the information that, you know, it's being able to apply it to the way that you work. And there's just so, so, so much information out there. And we can generate information now at the click of a button. But to what end? Right, instead of churning out information, we need to be connecting the dots between the information that we already have, and I'll bring AI into it momentarily, if I may.

Last week someone asked me if I'm anti ai. And I get this question a lot. I think it's because I'm building a company that's quite literally called Let's Talk human skills, and it does what it says on the tin. so I do get the question a lot, but I, I had a, a, a short answer in defensive ai and then I had an answer in defense of the humans as well.

And my short answer in defensive AI was, no, I'm not anti ai. And I think it's brilliant in many, many ways, and it's just already been so transformative and it will continue to be transformative. My answer in defense of US was that we need to think very carefully about the tasks that we are asking AI to do and whether we could benefit more from doing them ourselves.

So I'm all for using ai, but only if. ask themselves a question first, and that question is, is it more important that I get this task done quickly or that I use this task to develop a skill, right? Because if AI can do a task for you and save you time, great, fantastic. Use it. But if a task helps you to build a skill that you still need, do it yourself.

You know, connect the dots yourself. Don't just churn out something to just contribute to the masses and masses of information we already have out there that we still haven't connected together yet. And if we take writing writing's a technical skill, but if we take it as a very, very basic example, if you use AI to write a teeny tiny email to a colleague, or if you use it to write your entire university essay without much thought or attention before submitting it, or if you use it to write all of your LinkedIn or social media posts, you are not developing your ability to ideate.

You are not developing your ability to connect the dots. You are not developing your ability to write. Instead, what you are doing is you are developing AI's ability to do all of those things. And you know, we, we do need to become AI literate. Absolutely. I'd never discourage anyone from using it, but we do need to continue to develop our skills and connect the dots with the information we already have, rather than creating more and more and more of it, you know?

So I think, yeah, at the moment, ideation is overlooked and well, you can see why I think it's a bit worrying.

[00:40:49] Hannah: Yeah, yeah. It absolutely is. And one of the things that came up first for me in ideation is the sentiment of where we often, call it that in the corporate world is brainstorming. It's like, you know, coming together, you know, brainstorming ideas. And I don't actually think that the corporate world is particularly good at brainstorming and I guess sitting long enough with the ideas or sitting long enough in the uncomfortable of not having a solution for something.

we often call it design thinking these days of where you sit with the problem actually a little bit longer than it feels comfortable. In order to get to solutions that are truly innovative and that are different out of the box, fresh perspectives. And I feel like that is often something that we, or in my experience, that we don't do well enough when it comes to ideation.

It's often like jumping to solutions very, very quickly without really considering the full picture and having just enough data points at hand to warrant a certain course of action instead of really understanding, you know, is there anything else that we have overlooked? Is there something that we've not considered yet?

what would, you know, a completely different course of action look like and, I do believe that that is a bit uncomfortable. but it is still something that I often feel like some of us in the rooms who are a little quieter, who are a little more observing of the situations we can usually tell.

Like I often find myself in rooms where I can tell we're going for the fast solution and we're not sitting with the uncomfortable long enough for us to really crank out what's gonna be a fresh, innovative, new way of going about it. So I love that you're saying that, and I, again, I do think that there is a lot of value in somebody in the room who is more of an observer who listens really well and who has some of that perspective and, and point of view, but it's up to us to, to voice it.

And I guess, I guess that can be uncomfortable to, I don't know. I know that you work with a lot of. Organizations these days. Do you sometimes feel that happens when you work with groups of people in workplaces? how do you go about that?

[00:43:14] Hayley: Absolutely. So there, I, I've worked in a lot of organizations and, and, and with them through human skills education as well. And there are many, many teams out there where half of the team is rooting for the quick, fast solution. Let's just get it done. and the other half of the team are more. I guess it's the words that I used earlier as well.

More thoughtful, more considered more. We need to mull this over for a bit longer and not just ship it and get it out the door immediately. And what I try to encourage people to do is really think, okay, we can do our work faster these days and each week we are able to do it faster and faster and faster with the new tools that we have available.

But to what end? What are we spending our time on? More fast work? And to me, we are just gonna end up shipping things that are not great quality. 'cause we haven't thought about them enough, we haven't chatted about them enough. You know, we haven't considered them enough. And so what I really like to encourage people to do is actually okay if you've embedded tools into your, into your work that allow you to ship work much faster.

I. You don't need to ship it faster. Instead, spend the time thinking about the work more. Right? If there's a side of your work that can be done quicker, spend more time on this side, which is everything that you've just mentioned as well, and you get far better results that way. Far better. Also, what I say is that for the loud people in the room is too, and you know, we don't name the names, but without, with the loud people in the room.

Think about the quieter people in the room. How can you include them in this conversation? Right? And then the quieter people in the room. Think about the loud people in the room. How can you articulate your ideas in the way that they are going to take them on board? Because there, there's two different ways of working here that we're talking about, right?

And it's up to both sides. To be aware of how they work and then think about how they can include the other side in the discussion in the team and the work as well. That's super important.

[00:45:40] Hannah: yeah. It is truly a skill tool to then ask the right or to articulate your feelings in a way that is not offensive. just to say, you know what? We're overlooking this point entirely. You know, you're going off in the wrong direction. I can sense it. That's not gonna help the situation.

Right. It's almost like, how can I contribute in a way that makes that steers the conversation? In the right direction, and it potentially asks a, a meaningful question that is gonna have people think, you know, maybe we've overlooked something. Maybe we went a little bit too fast. But, overall it's that fast versus slow.

That fascinates me a lot. And, I, I, I feel like this is something that, still have to crack, a little bit better in the workplace.

[00:46:24] Hayley: I think so too. I really love asking what if, what if we approach this in a way

[00:46:31] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:31] Hayley: that we haven't done before? What if we are missing something here?

[00:46:38] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:46:39] Hayley: what if questions can be really, really helpful? And if as a team you can encourage, or if as an individual you can encourage the team to ask what if questions, that's a really good way to slow down thinking and to allow the quieter voices to, to come up more as well.

[00:46:57] Hannah: I love that. What if Well, it, it is, it can be so simple, right? But, yeah, we don't often do this.

[00:47:03] Hayley: Yeah.

[00:47:04] Hannah: Hailey, where I still wanna go in the last couple of minutes that we have is conversations.

[00:47:11] Hayley: Mm.

[00:47:11] Hannah: I said this earlier, I am loving your content on conversation starters and your

[00:47:16] Hayley: you.

[00:47:16] Hannah: and, I've binge watched all of them and there's so many different, so many brilliant little things that just speak directly to some of my struggles in the workplace, and I'm sure they do for my audience too.

we've touched on conversa making conversation before and, and, networking, building relationships. I wanna understand how do we build a meaningful. Relationship. How do we have a meaningful conversation? What, what are the parts of a conversation that makes somebody walk away and have had a positive experience?

What are some of those things that we can actively shape?

[00:47:56] Hayley: Yeah, of course. So I think the first thing to mention is listening before speaking. Listening is everything, isn't it? And it really helps someone feel as though they've had a meaningful conversation. One of the most common things people say to me is, I don't feel like people listen to me. And it breaks my heart because I know exactly what is happening in these conversations.

People are listening to respond and to say what they want to say. But what we really need to be doing is listening to understand the other person or listening to learn something as well. Right. So listening is, is right up there.the other thing is that we can get so caught up in boring autopilot conversations.

[00:48:46] Hannah: It's always the same. Huh?

[00:48:48] Hayley: Always the same. Yeah, exactly. And have you ever been on a call when someone has, asked you how you are three times in a row because they don't know what to say. They don't know what else to say or how to take the conversation elsewhere. Right. I love to jump straight into it and that's exactly why I did that content series, of conversation starters and conversation keepers to get people just jumping straight into the conversation.

Now, I don't, I dunno if you've ever seen that friend's episode where Phoebe, Rachel go out for a girl's night and they leave their partners, Ross and Mike alone together, and Ross and Mike have nothing in common, nothing. And the conversation goes a bit like, Hey man, how are you? I'm good man, how are you?

Yeah, fine. And that's it. Right? When that happens, and I see this happen. Out and about so many times the conversation just halts. It just stops, freezes, and it's awkward. It's boring. It doesn't allow you to connect with someone. And then what happens is you feel like you can't maintain a conversation. You feel like nobody wants to talk to you.

so then you don't strike up conversations when the opportunity arises and you miss out on opportunities. But we can do so much better. There. there's a researcher called Dr. John Medina and he's researched dopamine, which we know is the chemical of excitement and motivation. So it doesn't just get us excited about things.

It gets us up off of our bums in doing things as well. It motivates us. And he found that dopamine creates mental markers in our brains, like, post-it notes, right? So if you come across someone. Who makes you feel excited and powers you up with energy, you are likely to remember them. And then you have a post-it note in your brain for this person.

And one of the ways where we can become more memorable and experience deeper connection is by using our words. And I put this to the test myself. So when I hosted hosted my first live event, I greeted every single guest myself at the door. But instead of saying things like, how are you? Thank you for coming.

Nice to meet you. I said things like. Are you ready to talk confidence together? 'cause the event was called Let's Talk Confidence. I'd love to hear about your day before we begin, or, Hey, anything exciting happened today? I dived into the conversation. I snapped that person out of what they were thinking was about to happen, right?

And you can hear the difference in those conversation starters, can't you? I filled my greetings with dopamine and this makes people excited. It makes people want to engage with you, and it makes people want to hear what you have to say. You know what? That was the first live event I've ever hosted on my own, and the event was a huge success. Honestly, people may think I'm a bit wild for thinking this, but I greeted every single person at the door and I filled them with dopamine. And I think, I think that had something to do with the success of

[00:52:05] Hannah: Mm mm

[00:52:06] Hayley: really, really do. And some people say to me, Haley, there's no way I'm asking these questions.

This is so cringey I'll get laughed at. But I always say, well, there are two different situations here. Think about what's more uncomfortable. Is it situation one, which is having the, Hey, how are you busy? You conversation for 10 seconds, then dealing with what feels like infinite silence 'cause no one knows what to say.

[00:52:31] Hannah: right?

[00:52:32] Hayley: Or is it situation two where you take two seconds to use a dopamine field conversation starter, which will get people thinking positively engaged, excited, and thinking, thank God they asked me that question 'cause I didn't know what to say.

[00:52:47] Hannah: Mm,

[00:52:49] Hayley: What's more uncomfortable?

[00:52:51] Hannah: Yeah. And it goes back to what you said at the very beginning, is that. What's your confident voice? I think you can figure out, you know, here's a conversation starter that feels natural to me or that feels like it's something that I could potentially say. And then you say it in a voice and in a style that feels true to you and that feels natural to you.

So it doesn't feel like something I, you know, picked up on social media and I'm just not now gonna put to the test. But it, you, you can make it yours a little bit. Right.

[00:53:20] Hayley: absolutely. Yeah.

[00:53:20] Hannah: and I love the, in the intentionality behind filling them with dopamine, because if we think about it, it becomes a little bit more of an intention, more of a challenge, and that kind of, you know, that works really well for me.

You mentioned conversations that happen over and over again. and I feel like, and I know we've talked about this, it's like the Monday morning conversation. The weekend conversation. And there is nothing that haunts me more in corporate than going on a Monday morning call with the team. And then it's like, how was your weekend?

I dunno what it is about it. It's, it's, I also know that for us introverts or, you know, quieter people is extremely uncomfortable to talk about personal stuff and, and to be as open as that. So I'll often resort to, same kind of thing I did on the weekend. You know, I went for my cycling class, went for a dog, walk long one, and then I did a whole lot of laundry and

[00:54:15] Hayley: Yeah.

[00:54:15] Hannah: you know, errands and, you know, recorded a podcast, something like this.

But, it often feels like we're just scratching the surface and feels so disingenuine how you do take these normal. Seems, or, you know, small talk conversations into something that is more meaningful. How do you steer the conversation into something that just feels a little bit more, more natural, more authentic?

[00:54:41] Hayley: Of course it's the tiniest tweak. The tiniest tweak can make such a big difference. For example, the, and you really have watched all the videos. 'cause that was one of them, the weekend one. So if you, if we take the weekend question, oh, how was your weekend? You are giving somebody the opportunity to say, good, you. Right? But with a teeny tiny tweak, you could say, what was the best thing about your weekend? What was the one exciting thing you did this weekend? It's a very similar question, but you'll get a very different answer. You'll get one. You are asking somebody for one specific thing. One specific thing, and.

Then they might throw the question straight back at you, and that's okay. But you've got one specific thing from them. You mentioned dog walk. They might have a dog too. Point of connection. Great. And that's so much better finding them, discovering a point of connection than just saying, how was your weekend?

Good. Yours? Yeah. Good. Oh, back to work then Monday morning. Why? Why do we do this to ourselves? Find a point of connection and these tiny, tiny tweaks can get us there.

[00:55:58] Hannah: Yeah, I love, I love the tiny tweaks. I wish, I often wish I could come up with them, by myself. but this is why your work is so, so important and meaningful. It's like, it is a tiny tweak, but it's often just not as natural, to us. And then, you know, obviously there's lots of conversations, boring conversations about the weekend.

So there must be a lot of other people who also don't, you know, come up with these, with these prompts and conversation starters. So, so that means a lot, to me. And indeed I think that I've learned a lot like opening up in the workplace. Ah, there's so much magic in there because at the end of the day, it's people working with other people and it's not just about business.

There is a lot of interpersonal stuff that goes on and that shapes the way we, you know, we grow our careers. It shapes the way, you know, business results come about, and there is so much power in it, truly that I think we tend to underestimate. And for me personally, I've seen so much positive change come from opening up a little, sharing a little bit about myself and about me personally.

It feels counterintuitive at first, but as you said, I would've come, I would've had people in the team who said, you know what? I go to cycling classes as well. What, what are the kind of classes that you like? And then you have a different conversation and it becomes more meaningful. And the, at the end of the day, it also becomes more enjoyable.

And I feel like that's a big, big win. especially at a place where we spend so much of our time. Yeah.

[00:57:32] Hayley: I couldn't agree more. Yeah,

[00:57:34] Hannah: Hailey, thank you so much for joining me today. I wish we, I could talk for hours about these things, and I will be, you know, hanging onto every single piece of content and reel that you put out there. I love them. Let my audience know where they can find you, work with you, how they might go about improving their human skills if they're interesting to learn more and connect with you.

[00:57:57] Hayley: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved this conversation. I really, really have. so people can find me on LinkedIn as Hayley Dawson. It's H-A-Y-L-E-Y, on Instagram at Let's Talk Human Skills. And then we've got, let's talk human skills.com as well, which lists all of the workplace training I do with confidence, emotional intelligence, communication, collaboration, relationship building, ideation and adaptability, all of those interconnected human skills.

so yeah, I love delivering talks and workshops for corporates and charities and universities, and that's where you can find it all. Let's talk human skills.com.

[00:58:43] Hannah: I love that. Thank you so much for joining me, Hailey.

[00:58:46] Hayley: Thank you.