Alex

Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to give you a heads up that we're talking about some pretty heavy themes, which you might find upsetting. Take care while you're listening.

Jed

I just felt absolutely rocked. The fact that those people were being murdered, and it was just it was scary it was I've never felt like that before it was at all it's like somebody explores a chink in the armour.

Alex

In this series, we hear stories about the role masculinity plays in today's world, as I tried to become a better version of myself every day. Join me and let's discover this together.

In this episode, we'll hear how a man copes when the horrors of war come back to haunt him decades later, and how he balances the brutality of army life with being a caring father. Chet used to be a vehicle mechanic in the British Army. Back in 1997. He was stationed in Bosnia. One afternoon, he jumps in a Landrover with fellow soldier Brett, and they lead a convoy into rural Bosnia. It's a beautiful sunny day, about five hours into the trip, something catches jets I

Jed

we were driving through a village. And I noticed that there was nobody about in the village. So I'd sent a brat as we were driving news versus as well as everybody's Bank is a public holiday or something. There's there's something going on. And restaurant armies down the road, I assure you. And I never thought anything else of it. And then about a mile down the road. We're driving past a field and Brett pointed and he said, Oh, you know, you see in the middle of field is a big crucifix. And I looked in Yeah, there's this huge crucifix in the field. And Brett says that's where the people in the village are the buried there that were taken out one night and massacred. There was no no compassion on nothing. And he's in the way he told me it was just matter of fact. I've never come across anything like that before. But I mean, so far as violence and and what have you. I mean, that is normal. That's part of being in the Army. What did surprise me as we drove past the field was just there was only one crucifix. That didn't seem to be anything else. There was absolutely nothing in this field is possibly because there was no families left to go there and mark the passing. I don't know, I don't know whether everybody that lives in the village that really had nobody else. But there was just this one cross and that was it. Because you're a soldier, you've got to have this armour, you've got to not show any sort of vulnerability or weakness or anything like that. So I think I probably said something like, oh, seems to be them or something and just dismissed it and didn't really ask any more questions or see anything about it. It just got put into a. And there were little filing cabinet in my head and never, never looked back on it at all. And then about 2009. I was, well, we the family were sat one evening, we were sat watching the news on TV or having work or dinner. And this just this tiny little snippet. Towards the end, the news came on the investigators at founder, hidden war grave in Bosnia with a couple of 100 people buried in it. And all of a sudden, this just came at me like a bolt from the blue. I just sat and started crying and I just just wept. And my wife sort of looked, it's definitely not right. And I just I couldn't explain us, I'm sorry, that's just really sort of upset me and leave the room just sort of go outside and get a breath of fresh air and have a drink of water and just took me right back to that day when we're just driving past that field. I mean, I've obviously since I left the army, I got married, I have kids. And life has become so much more precious to me than than it was then. As a young man as a young soldier. I don't think you don't have a value on life because we have tasks is to eradicate life if you have to and as such, I don't think I've ever really thought about that. But yes, with a family around me. I just felt absolutely rocked. The fact that those people would be inverted and And it was just it was scary it was I've never felt like that before it was at all. It's like somebody expose a chink in the armour. Again, you've got this thing where you've got a lot of people just stuffed into the ground and covered and hidden, as if there's been nothing as if the life didn't mean a thing. And then to the sort of, you know, obviously somebody's directed them and started digging and found, found these people, it's just so it's just horrible. Just people can be so nasty to each other.

Alex

Back in 97, you were desensitised to it, you didn't really feel a thing. But now you are feeling it, is it because you've got a family? You thought about how precious your kids lives are? Because they're so young at that time nine and seven. And you imagine what if it was your family? That was

Jed

yeah, totally, totally. And a good example of that is, when my son was about five years old, he had to go into hospital to get grommets put in. And my wife and I took them to the hospital. And then we got them settled on the ward. And the nurse came and said, right, one of us can come down at the theatre with them. So my wife said, Well, you better go because you're the big tough guy, you're not going to be a nervous wreck. So I took them down, and be honest, I did everything I could to distract them, because I didn't want them to get worried. So we joked and we carried on and we had a right we had a good time. And even like in the anaesthetics room, we were laughing and giggling and all that. And then the anaesthetist administer the injection. And as soon as he fell unconscious, I just burst into tears. And the guy looked at me and said, everything, all right, I said, it's just hit me that I am no longer responsible for his life. I've just given you the responsibility to look after my child. That's never happened before. I've never had to think that anybody else was responsible for him, other than me. And that was that again, that rocked me that I was no longer in control of this little boy's future.

Alex

Did you relate that back to what happened in in Bosnia?

Jed

I don't think so. Not not immediately. But I mean, you can see this sort of the connection of the fact that my kids, I'm responsible for my kids. And I've often said, I would kill for my children, I would die for my children. I would do whatever had to be done, make sure that they were all right, and that there were safe. And my wife as well, I can't dare forget my wife. And this is something in the army, certainly I never had, I was a single man. And my life was my responsibility. And that was it.

Alex

I can just imagine you've got to really almost wear this kind of mask or the shield, you're almost dehumanised. But now you've come back to civilian life. And now you've developed these very normal human feelings, but you still don't want to accept that you have those feelings. Because in that moment in the, in the living room, you run out of the room, because you don't want your kids and your wife to see you upset. Yeah, what's stopping you from showing your vulnerability in front of your kids and your wife,

Jed

um, it's just this inbuilt mechanism. The fact is that once upon a time, to survive, you have to be strong, and you have to show strength. If you showed any weakness, that was when you became vulnerable, and you were attacked, and you've died, or you lost the food you were going for your family suffered. And I think it's still very much ingrained in the male psyche, that we can't show that weak because somebody will take advantage of us. I mean, I would guess, even at school, even when you look at going to school, if you showed that you were vulnerable, I would always be somebody that would expose that vulnerability and exploit it. So you're always wore a mask from the very early days. And particularly for boys, I mean, boys and girls or boys or men were supposed to be tough and you fell down your grades your knees, you didn't cry, you just wiped it and you're carried on. And so unfortunately for guys, and this is why as men, I mean, I now understand that it's healthy to talk about your emotions, and it's healthy to share your emotions with people. But you still see the youngsters that were coming through schools and stuff like that they're still having to put on this this fixed identity because otherwise, they just get exploited. They just get ripped apart by their peers. Yeah.

Alex

I'm curious. How is your son? What was your son's name again, sir. Andrew, Andrew. I was Andrew different to you growing up as a man, and I'm guessing he's an adult now, a young, a young adult,

Jed

and those yeas 19 He just finished his first year at university. And there's a lot in in the mirror when I see him because he's is a big guy. I mean, I'm a big bloke and he's a big lad. He's working in a nightclub at the moment. Is you on the doors on the on the bar? No, no, no, he's on the bar. But I've got to be honest, he likes hanging out with a doorman and stuff like that. And he does get involved in stuff that happens in a club. So he's obviously a tough guys to get after his old man. But then I keep trying to hammer on to the softer side that you've got to have. He said something a while back, which I was immensely proud of. It was during lockdown. So he was about 16 or 17. And he'd gone to a party. Yeah, it was quite a small part. Yeah, it was allowed. It was one of these things where I think things are starting to relax. You've been having a bit of a relationship with a young lady or the girl and you've got this party. And I've got to pick them up the next morning. And we're driving home and he sort of looked at me. Some that happened last night dad taught me about it. So I was you know, okay, man, what happened? He said, Well, the girlfriend should was one that the mate love. But she was really drunk. So I decided not to use it at all. I know we shouldn't. And we left it at that. And I just this massive prayed and saved me I just said, well don't make it did the absolute right thing. You absolutely did the right thing. Whether or not she wanted it. Like she was obviously you know, you thought she was drunk. And and I said that you've got to do like, you've got to respect women. And sometimes even when the the second one thing, if you feel that it's the wrong thing to do, then you go with your feelings. And that's something that, that I'm frequently so pleased that he's got this. And I'm hoping to get that off me and his mum, you know that he's got this respect for women, and just just hopefully this respect for everybody. Have you ever

Alex

talked to you as your son Andrew about the army and the things you experienced it and also that day in the village in Bosnia, I

Jed

don't think I've ever taught them about Bosnia, I've talked to them about the army. And I've always kept saying to myself, I'm going to sit down with a GoPro and record some of the stories because I mean, I've lived a very wide and varied life. I mean, I've done everything from work the doors been a cop out of and pubs have been out and Bosnia loads of things in between always lots of stories so and my daughter will sit and she'll listen to the stories and say I love it love listening to your stories, that they're always really interesting.

Alex

I think it's really good to document this this kind of stuff. I'm whenever I'm a dad in future, I'd love to be able to document all of that, because that's what you're leaving of you in the world. When you pop your clogs. You know, you want something? You want things that your kids and their kids and someone will remember you by

Jed

one Yeah, exactly. I mean, your story dies with you, doesn't it? So if you can't pass on some of your life, then it's it's not been a life well lived. I don't think

Alex

it's really interesting that you've had a very varied life, particularly on the professional side of things with your careers. Army soldier, police, man, bouncer, what was the thinking behind those, choosing those things?

Jed

I think so much of it is just circumstance. The only reason I worked on the doors was because I was working in a shop. And one of the guys I worked with was a bouncer. And he said, oh, we need some lads. You're a big struggle, and why do the front cover work on the doors? So I went along and give it a try and enjoy that. So that was quite interesting. With the army I got involved with the Army through the territorials originally because I had a sort of full time job. I was working in the hotel, had a good mechanical experience. I've done a lot of mechanical work in the back in the past, and I just thought I wouldn't mind trying out and being a mechanic in the in the territorials and then the opportunity that came to sort of join the regulars and so I took it, so it's nothing for me, very little of my life's been pre planned, it always seems to have been fit that has guided me and I do see there's an awful lot of people I think fit, in my opinion as a lot a lot to play with your life, sometimes crap stuff happens. And you get through the press. And so if you think, you know, what's the point, and then a couple of weeks or a couple of months down the line, you're looking back and actually I'm glad that happened because now I'm here and I'm doing something totally different. I mean, I'll give you a good example of the mask of masculinity. I think I'm involved with BF festival and Corbridge tynedale Beer Festival. And I was actually there as a representative for a group I'm involved with called Andy's man club. And I'd seen a friend of mine, I saw his daughter. And I went across, had a quick chat with and she said, Oh, did you hear about my dad? Now I knew and dad hadn't been well, and I'd seen him about two or three months before that. I mean, you'd be looking crate sort of ill, but nothing else. I didn't know what happened. He passed away last week. And I was absolutely good. I mean, it just hit me like a bolt from the blue. I wasn't expecting that at all. And I didn't think he'd been that ill. So I, I went out the tent, and I sat in my car. And I started going through all these feelings, all these emotions started going through my head. But then it suddenly occurred to me that I was sat in that car, when in fact, in the tent was two lads that I've been working with on Andy's man club, who had been my rocks in so many occasions. So I went into the tent, and I walked up these two guys that just burst into tears, wrap my arms around them. And they guys were just like, What the hell's wrong, Jed, you know. And when I explained, we all just sat and had a brew and just talked about it. Now, once upon a time that I would never have, I would have sat in the mortar, and I would have just hated my life and just felt really crap and depressed. And that would have been the end of my day. But since been involved with Andy's man club, I've now got the courage to actually walk up the mat and burst into tears. And see, I've just heard some shit news guys, and no fine, well, that they're not going to rip the mickey out of it, they're not going to judge us, they're not going to go tell them I'm here to just burst into tears. They're just going to put their arms around me Give me hug and say, It's alright, man, we're here for you. And that's what I think guys need to do, we need to be able to wrap our arms around each other and have a hug and not go ooh, you know, or something like that, because it isn't. Far from it.

Alex

It's a really nice story to talk about what it means to be a man in, in 2022 is almost like the addition of vulnerability will take you to the next level of being a man so to speak. Whereas back in the day, you know, my father, my grandfather, they were both coal miners that was similar kind of background to you, in the sense of men don't show their emotions and their feelings and look at the difference. I mean, if you almost think about who Jed the man is today, if you had that situation in Bosnia today, would you have had the emotions flood out? Fill it out? Have you seen that crucifix?

Jed

Oh, yeah, without a doubt, without a doubt, we wouldn't have driven past we will have stopped I would have wanted to know what the hell was going on? Why? Why the graves weren't marked why why why something wasn't being done about it, I would not have just rolled past and put it away at all.

Alex

So that was indicative of what men were supposed to be back in the 90s. Well, that's

Jed

part of the whole point of the army or the forces in general, is that you've got to be able to defend, defend yourself, defend the around, defend your country. And as a consequence, the trainee, you've got to be strong, you've got to be tough. You've got to be able to compartmentalise things that you see, because it's not good. For morale, you look at the First World War, and the stress and the strain that that that what was happening to the soldiers on the front lines was so bad that the guys were cracking up, and they were they were going mad. And because this officers were scared that this was going to affect all the soldiers. They immediately called them cowards, took them away and executed them. And that was how they kept control. And I'm sure to this day wouldn't be the same, but they would certainly take measures to try and remove anybody who was struggling away from everybody else, not particularly for their own good but for the for the circumstances of the situation because you need your 100 guys all looking at the front or ready to pull the trigger already to sort of like fight and kill and die. And you can't have somebody distracting everybody by having a breakdown behind unfortunately, that's just not not the way of the armed forces,

Alex

not acceptable. And you could have been shunned by your your colleagues, as well. I

Jed

mean, yeah, we had a guy I was on a particular training course. We're with guys from the unit and we had this lad. He was a Scotsman he was a Glaswegian, and he was a tough kid. He was a tough guy. I mean, he was a real Glaswegian hard man. And you did not look at them the wrong way. And then one day, we were doing some training in the, in the gas chamber use wear masks, use my regular as with tear gas, to make sure that you're doing your drills properly. This is your NBC drills. And this guy got some go got some gas and his gas mask, he got a lung full of tear gas. And he just burst into tears. He just became hysterical, and actually ran out of the emergency exit screaming like a kid. And we were all just sort of stood laughing. Just think a bit. You know, that's vulnerability that you're going to regret Shawn, because he then when we came out afterwards, that was it. He got the Mickey him something rotten, in many respects are out. Some people would say rightly so because he had this he was such a tough bastard that it was nice to see that the guy had a weakness a weak side. But it was something that is fought not this year, no matter what the circumstances, whatever you're doing, it did not show that you were, you know, upset.

Alex

I remember being in Hong Kong in 2016, where I'd started my business, I had experienced a lot of depression, anxiety, and all of it was coming from my business failing. I remember bursting into tears one day, and I had a decision to make in that moment. I could have been completely embarrassed about it and wiped the tears away from my eyes and pretended everything was okay. I could just continue crying, let it all out, be vulnerable and own it. Thankfully, I did the latter. The times when I've not found my tears, it's just suppressed it and made it worse. So that's why I've got so much respect for Jed, that he was able to cry in front of other men and own it as a man. JET has always been a tough man throughout his life. But what I find really revealing about this episode is how his definition of tough has changed throughout the years. In his army life. He was this tough man who was I suppose a traditionally tough man who was using his strength and not revealing any emotions and not being vulnerable. But nowadays, he's willing to be vulnerable and let people know how he's feeling. I think there's a lot of strength in that which is almost created a new definition of what a tough man really is. Jed is guiding his son to be a very different man to the way he was 3040 years ago. What does toughness mean to you? Let us know what you think by going to our social media channels and comments in there.