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Janice Porter: Hi, everyone, and
welcome to the relationships

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rule podcast. I'm your host,
Janice Porter. And my special

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guest this week is Bill Troy.
Welcome to the show, Bill. So

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thank you. So I've had the
privilege and pleasure of

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interviewing Bill's co founder
in his company and wife, Kim, on

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my podcast just recently, and I
hadn't met Bill before. And I

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started looking into what he was
all about, and decided that I

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needed to talk to him too. And
he kindly offered or agreed to

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come on the podcast, because
Bill wrote a book called click

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sand. First of all, I love the
name. Second of all, the the add

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on to that is cliques, and how
online marketing will destroy

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your business. And the unlikely
secret to saving and is that

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part of the Yes,

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Bill Troy: yes. Right. The
publisher said you can't just

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leave it with a like a negative
like that. Exactly. Right. And,

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Janice Porter: and so just the
first thing that I want to say

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to you is contrarian, people are
contrarian. So talk to me about

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that, because I think I'm a bit
on your side with this. So do

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share, please.

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Bill Troy: Well, I will
contrarian is just challenging

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the status quo. You know, it
probably started when I was a

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kid probably started, you know,
in school, every teacher go,

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Wait a minute. Where'd you get
that? Right? Can you prove that?

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So? I just kind of taking on a
persona. Yeah, I just I just

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feel like so many people just go
along with what everybody says

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it's like,

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Janice Porter: yeah. And so you
were that kid that always said,

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why? Oh, yeah. Yes. I know,
there used to be a kid in my

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math class, back in elementary
school. And every time the math

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teacher said something, she had
her hand up. But sir, but Sir,

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and I still remember this to
this day, because that's exactly

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what she was doing. She was
challenging everything that you

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said. And we were in elementary
school. So God knows what she

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ended up being but the kind of
thing to know. Yeah.

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Bill Troy: So I was I was not
the polite one to raise my

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hands. I was just in the back of
the room making smart aleck

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comments. So same family? Yeah,

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Janice Porter: yeah, yeah,
exactly. So what I what I tell

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me about cliques and and you
know, what started that book.

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And, and I know a little bit,
but I want my audience to hear

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Bill Troy: from you. So the book
really started from an

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interaction we had with an
elderly couple who came to

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CIVILUS for marketing help. They
had a business, it was an online

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business. And they were spending
lots of money on online ads, and

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they were making sales. And they
came to us and said, We really

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need that your help to make to
make it work to make more money

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to make more sales, and we
analyze the business, we

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realized they were losing money
on every sale, they were

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spending more to get each sale
with the online ads, and they

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were making in profit. And they
didn't really understand that

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they were naive, they've been
sold a franchise business was

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supposed to be turnkey, was
supposed to be their retirement,

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they put everything into it. And
they couldn't explain to them

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that this is a trap, this is a
negative thing. You there's no

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way out of this, you've been
sold a bill of goods. And it was

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just really heartbreaking for us
to see people sort of fall for a

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sales pitch like that, and
believe that with all their

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heart to need to believe with
all their heart, and it's like,

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Okay, enough of this, I'm gonna,
you know, I wasn't planning to

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write a book, but it's like, I'm
gonna write a book and tell

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people about this. Because there
are things about technology is

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great. But there are things
about and especially the way

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it's sold and used, that is very
destructive. And a lot of people

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don't realize that. And a lot of
business owners fall for it and

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end up hurting themselves
without realizing. So that's

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what quicksand is out there to
stop.

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Janice Porter: Yes, it's so
true. You say, I know you. I've

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heard you say that. You can't
when you can't trust online

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marketing, because even the
online marketers sell face to

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face, right?

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Bill Troy: Well think about
that. Yeah, you've never bought

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online marketing with online
marketing. No, I had actually

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one time with a guy who thought
I told this anecdote anecdote

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before that was VP of Sales for
an online marketing company was

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a local company selling
businesses getting local

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businesses on the internet. I
said, Well, how you getting

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clients, we have ad sales reps
calling on every business in

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town, like do you hear this?
What what you're even saying he

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didn't even understand what he
was saying. It was He was so

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oblivious, thinking he was
helping all these clients like

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it. So online marketers don't
use online marketing. And here's

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the here's the funny thing. And
it's not just a local agency

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like that. If you do go on and
you buy you buy AdWords or you

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buy whatever and these days the
big thing is recruiting so you

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sign up for indeed, if your
credit card and start getting an

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account, guess what you're gonna
get, you're gonna get a phone

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call from a helpful consultant
that those companies you know

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what that call titles job is to
sell you more to get you to buy

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more clicks, more clicks,
they're not there to help you

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fill the position or make sales,
they're there to sell clicks.

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And it's going to seem very nice
and open and wonderful. But

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beware. So yeah, they don't use
that they sell with old school

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relationships and personal. So

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Janice Porter: I also I want to
ask you about this because I my

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experiences with LinkedIn, and I
do LinkedIn training, as you

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know, and I know that I heard
you say on on, may have been

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another podcast, that people are
not using LinkedIn to increase

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intimacy, but to coerce
customers. And, and, and and

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when they use that third party
tool, let's say to help them get

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more messages out to more people
and connect to more people. It's

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quite often it's about selling
them something and pitching them

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as well. And and so I talk to
people all the time about you

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know, it's about trying to build
a relationship, not sell, sell,

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sell. And so how can you do that
when you're using a third party

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tool or an online tool to make
those connections and message

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for you? What's your answer to
that? What do you say to that?

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Well,

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Bill Troy: it's not the tool,
any more than it's paper or

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telephone. I mean, you use tools
all the time to communicate with

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people, I mean, you don't always
aren't always face to face. So

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you do send people notes and
letters and emails and

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telephone. So it's not the tool
itself, it's how you use the

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tool, and who's teaching you how
to use the tool. When someone

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comes to you, you don't say send
as many messages, you can do as

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many people as you can, and just
1% of those people don't do that

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sort of thing. So you can do
that with paper. I mean, one of

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the anecdotes in my book is the
original spam. The first spam in

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the history of the world is the
MacDonald the Montgomery Ward

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catalog, right. In the late
1800s, people started getting

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catalogs in their mailbox that
didn't ask for, which was

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marketing, in hopes that some
small percentage of people would

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buy stuff that was the original
spam unsolicited marketing

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messages, now we get them. So if
you're going to do spam, you can

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do with any tool, I mean, you
can do spam with telephone, you

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know, robo calls. So it's not
the tool, it's how you use it.

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And it's not letting the people
who sell the tool who make money

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from the more you use the tool,
make money from you more money

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from you, if you use the tool
more tell you how to use the

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tool, it's usually about using
it better, not more, right.

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Janice Porter: And you said
something else that I absolutely

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love, because I teach this as
well is, you know, most people

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look at the top of somebody's
LinkedIn profile, and they never

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dig deeper and look. And when I
teach people how to create their

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profile, I'm always saying add
here, add there, do this, add

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those little things that make
you human that make you unique,

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that show who you are, and then
the people who are really paying

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attention will find those
things. And we'll use them in

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conversation with you. That's
when you know, they're trying to

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build a relationship.

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Bill Troy: Yeah. And one of the
things I would add to that, I

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always get pushback from people,
well, I don't have time to

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scroll down. Everyone's
thinking, blah, blah, blah. And

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you know what the answer to that
is, that means you're going

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after people that are too small,
you need to go after bigger

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customers. If you don't have the
time to invest in a

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relationship, then you're trying
to sell something cheap and fast

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and quick. And that is not a
relationship. That's a

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transaction. Right? And most
likely your best sales, your

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biggest sales ever were from
human interaction and

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relationships. So go after
bigger customers that you can

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invest the time. And every
company can do that everybody

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starts to say, well, we don't, I
don't care. If you're a hot dog

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vendor on the sidewalk, you can
go after bigger customers get a

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catering gig, right? corporate
events, get it sold to a

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corporate event and show up at a
corporate party. Everybody can

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go after bigger customers where
there's the room and their

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resources to invest in that
relationship, and then use the

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tools to do that. So

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Janice Porter: to me, that
sounds like you have to be

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creative number one. And also
though, you have to have the

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confidence to do that.

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Bill Troy: Yes. I think it's not
even just that it's also

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sticking to your values. I think
there's fear. I'm afraid that if

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I don't hit more people today
than my competitor, I'm gonna

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fall behind. There's a sort of
fear of fear of missing out

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right home. And that is
perpetuated by the people who

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sell digital marketing tools,
massive marketing tools, and

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you've got to find out what's
true inside you and go with

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that. And that's that's a
message I share a lot with CEOs

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because what I find is the
business owners, let's say

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they're a little older and
grayer like I am. They're told

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that they're out of touch,
right? Because they didn't just

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graduate from a marketing online
marketing class at the community

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college last month, and so they
don't know the latest and

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greatest digital tools. And so
you're, you're, you're you don't

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get it step out of the way. Let
me show you how it's done. It's

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like, No, you know, the root
values of this company and what

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the customer needs. And don't
let people push you aside, step

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back in and say, Look, this is
what we do. This is how we treat

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people. And if we're going to
use digital tools, it's still

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got fit within that we cannot
sacrifice that for some, you

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know, Mirage, we're going to
chase with some perfect keyword.

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Janice Porter: Yeah, that's so
true. So it's, it's also then

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about that famous word that I
love is wisdom is about those of

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us with some wisdom needs to
stand in our stand our ground

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and, and know and believe that
what we're saying still holds

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true. And I think it does. And,
and it's funny, because I was

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talking to a woman yesterday,
about the other side of my

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business, the relationship
marketing tool that I use that

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we've talked about. And she
said, You know, I send cards to

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my grandchildren, my, like,
young adult grandchildren, and

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my teenage grandchildren, but
they never say thank you. She

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said, I don't think they've been
taught to say thank you. And I

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said, first of all, they should
be sending you cards and picking

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up the phone and talking to you.
But secondly, you're probably

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right. I mean, in some cases,
you know, that add mentality

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that, that, you know, we're
still busy that we just have to

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keep moving, and we forget to
teach our children some of these

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things today, you know, because
we're trying to do so many

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things, and keep your head above
water, generally speaking, but

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that just made me think that's
kind of fit with what you were

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saying in terms of, you know,
stick to your stick to your

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ground. And, and, and know that
it really, people have to trust

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their gut more, I think, I don't
know, I've been looking for

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somebody to help me with a
website. And I just knew when I

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talked to this woman, that she
was the right person for me. I

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didn't know it was the
relationship building the

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feeling that I was getting, I
wasn't getting snowed by I can

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do this, this and this, right?
So I didn't. So you've worked

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with some big companies. In your
time, you've worked with brands

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like Sony and Disney and Nestle.
Do you have an interesting story

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from one of those that you can
recall that that speaks to this?

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Because to the power of
relationships and in in

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marketing?

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Bill Troy: Well, I'll tell you,
so one of the things I think

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it's all confusing in the world
these days is what is marketing

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or what is sales, I think a lot
of people believe marketing is

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sales, and the same thing. But I
can tell you an interesting

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little sales anecdote that
relates to the relationship idea

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about how I got to work for
someone, okay, we we had a

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client that was I owned a market
research company for about 25

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years. And we had done work for
various clients, and a VP at one

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of those clients was let go was
out of work. And so, you know,

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if you're going to work, no one
wants to talk to you, because

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they don't want to try to pitch
me for a job. But I've been out

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of work myself, when I was in my
20s, I worked for a company that

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got bought by another company,
and they had their own people.

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So we were all getting checks
and one meeting like see you're

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out of here. So I've been out of
work before. And I'm like, so I

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reached out to Bruce, I'm like,
Hey, what's going on, you got

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some free time. But if you want
to connect, let's talk and just

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catch up, we had not had a lot
of time to talk when he was a

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client of ours. And so we
actually kind of struck up a

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little more of a relationship
than we had before. And I I

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didn't just call him because he
was not at work. And I'd been

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there myself, didn't think
anything about it. And then he

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got a job at Sony. And he called
me and said, Hey, I'm going to

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start at Sony next week, I want
to talk to you about something,

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okay. And sure enough, he had an
idea that he came to me and

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said, Can we do that that day?
And I said, Yeah, we can

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absolutely do that it turned
into the biggest client we ever

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had. And it was because I called
an unemployed guy. So I'm sure

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when your marketing agency comes
in, they don't say, you know,

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call everybody who's unemployed.
But I didn't, I call them

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because it was a relationship.
But that was the kind of thing

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that paid off down the road. So
that was the beginning of let's

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see some new ways to do things.
And if you really sort of look

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at what drives your business,
what kind of relationships drive

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your business. And so we
actually turn that just to

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finish that anecdote. We turned
that into a process in our

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company, we started watching the
trade press, for people that

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work at companies that people we
knew who were out of work and we

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reached out to him, we built a
whole package to help them when

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they were out of work. Make some
introductions in those days.

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This was in the 90s, early 2000s
helped them build little

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personal webpage like you're
talking about LinkedIn, we just

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help them at that moment when
they needed help without any

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expectation. We don't know if
they're going to use our

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services later but good
relationship stuff, right? So

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you don't know where you're
going to find the right kinds of

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relationships to help people
with but that's

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Janice Porter: a great story
because if you come from your

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heart hmm, yeah, it pays off is
that law of reciprocity too,

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because you never know what's
going to come back. It could

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come from some Where else right?

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Bill Troy: So let me let me tell
you when Bruce got the job at

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Sony, yeah, his phone ringing
off the hook that everybody

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wants to call him. Right? Well,
too late, right. So that's,

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that's, yeah, there's

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Janice Porter: the moral to the
story, right? Yeah, that's

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really good. So I had asked in
the information I sent you what

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your favorite quote was, and you
mentioned one from Steve Jobs.

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It's not the tools you have
faith in tools are just tools,

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they work or they don't work.
It's people you have faith in or

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not. And that really speaks to
what we just said. And yeah, and

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he never struck me as a people
person. Steve was who I love it

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then. Exactly, exactly. You knew
that? Yes, of course he did. And

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when you Okay, so, your business
now your CIVILUS consulting

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business when your wife run
together? I know she's the boss,

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though. Right?

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Bill Troy: She is. Yeah, I'm the
idea guy. Everything.

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Janice Porter: So is it now I
know, it's been going for many

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years now? Is does business come
to you? Or are you still seeking

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business? And if it comes to
you, or when it comes to you? Do

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you ever have to turn people
wait, because they're not

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thinking the way you want them?
To think or?

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Bill Troy: Yeah, definitely
comes to us. And we definitely

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have to turn a lot of people
away. Because we have very

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specific mindset. And right,
we're not going to work for

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somebody that doesn't have that
mindset. I'll give you an

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example. Right now, recruiting
is really big. I mean, everybody

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needs talent. Everybody needs
staff. Yeah, no one can find

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enough and except our clients,
we help them we help them

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develop a relationship based
recruiting strategy versus a

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transaction based recruiting
strategy. So somebody who is

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spending 1000s of dollars a
month on Indeed, and getting so

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many clicks and applications
that can't keep up with all of

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them still aren't filling their
positions. That's the kind of

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person we're working with. Right
now. They're coming to us,

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because we've solved it for some
other clients like, oh, call the

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CIVILUS. Guys, they've got a
solution to get out of that debt

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trap. But they're some of those
companies can't let go of it.

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You know, I can't let go of this
budget I spend on Indeed,

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because then I won't have any
clicks. Like, why do you want

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00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:32,040
clicks, you want clicks, you
want people working here who

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love working here. And that's a
completely different approach

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completely different. And some
people are afraid to let go of

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that the tools, the online tools
are so addictive. And nobody

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realizes how addictive they are.
But if you're involved, you're

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participating in almost like a
casino. Dashboard, and you're

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seeing that? Yeah.

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Janice Porter: Did they think
they're getting more for their

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money? Yes,

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Bill Troy: yeah, they've been,
they forget what they're trying

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00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,790
to actually get, which is people
to work there and stay there.

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They think they're now trying to
get clicks and views and opens

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and likes and all that sort of
stuff. Like, wait a minute, that

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doesn't lead to anything, you
don't want clicks. So we have

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some people that just can't let
go of that they're too afraid to

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go in the direction of
relationships, basically. And

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it's like, well, we can't work
well. So people

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Janice Porter: who have spent
the money on something like

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indeed and so on to do that, and
then they come to you do you

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take what they have and work
from that and start to sift

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through or do you go another
approach completely?

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Bill Troy: We would say take the
resources you're putting into it

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into a deed and go somewhere
else but we wouldn't try to

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tweak their indeed campaign
necessarily. No,

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00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,690
Janice Porter: no, no, but
they've got all these people are

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all these. I don't even know how
it works. So they get resumes.

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Is that how they

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Bill Troy: Yeah, they get you
know, they get applicants. It's

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Janice Porter: yeah, it doesn't
matter. Yeah. I just thought I

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like it's my hamster wheel. I
also have resumes online that

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00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,820
they have to sift through route

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00:19:02,819 --> 00:19:04,859
Bill Troy: don't fit anybody
don't fit anything. It doesn't

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00:19:04,859 --> 00:19:07,049
constantly the applicant just
hits up click apply, apply,

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00:19:07,049 --> 00:19:09,329
apply play can't filter anyone
and then you just dealing with

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00:19:09,329 --> 00:19:13,799
all these. Yeah, so we would
stop and say okay, whoa, whoa,

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00:19:13,799 --> 00:19:17,699
whoa, stop. Where did your best
people come from? Who do you

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love that works here? Who do you
who would you want to get and

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let's build a and so you end up
building something that's

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completely different rather than
some online strategy you might

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end up we have a moving company
we work with we help them

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connect into the local soccer
community because it turns out

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that soccer players are ideal.
Yes, work to work in a moving

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company because they're you
don't need big and strong

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stamina, right? Yes, yeah. And
flexibility and because you got

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you know, tools to help you lift
everything. And so soccer, the

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soccer community was the place
to find people that love the job

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and you could feed back and it
and suddenly now we're this is

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something more meaningful than
just moving furniture, right?

353
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Yeah, that's it. hear there's
people watching for a reason

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it's connected to what else that
then things I love. And so you

355
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know, it's a longer process than
what I just explained. But

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that's the direction you start
going it is what it is if

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somebody starts school or the
community college or what's the

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community, where do your people
live? How do you get to know

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them? And suddenly, there's no
ads need to be run at all,

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because everybody on the soccer
team saying, Hey, guys, I love

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this job, you gotta come work
here and more applicants than

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you can handle. So that's,

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Janice Porter: that's a great
example. Actually, I quite like

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that. That's very cool.

365
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Bill Troy: And you never know
exactly where it's going to be

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for each company. But for every
company, you can find a way to

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connect into some deeper thing
with people and get people to

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work there. Yeah,

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00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:42,450
Janice Porter: for sure, for
sure. I like that you, you use

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00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:45,630
the word and I'm just going back
to something the volume versus

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intimacy. I love that because
that's really what it is. It's

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about building that
relationship. Now, I just want

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to take a side to tour for a
second. I know we weren't going

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to talk about anything other
than this piece. But I am a

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curious person, which I'm going
to talk to you about in a

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minute. But my curiosity is
about the music part of your

377
00:21:06,690 --> 00:21:10,860
life. Sure. Talk to me about
that. Like, are you a musician,

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by the way?

379
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:14,760
Bill Troy: No, I'm not a
musician. Okay. Okay. I'm a

380
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,740
writer. Oh, yes. So I do
songwriting. So that's a long

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life. That's a lifelong process.
I was in the radio business for

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years and years ago, okay. And
then as the market research

383
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company I started was focusing
on entertainment media. So we

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worked for a lot of
entertainment media clients, as

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well as consumer clients who
grew into that, but we worked

386
00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:39,420
for a lot of record companies
and radio stations, television

387
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stations, and so on. And so
that's how I got connected into

388
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the music world. And then I,
well, I have some creative bone

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00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,420
in my body. So I just start
creating stuff. So now, I'm

390
00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:51,810
involved in creating music and
publishing some music and trying

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00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:54,870
to make that annual creative
outlet.

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Janice Porter: And is that one
genre or different genres?

393
00:22:00,180 --> 00:22:04,590
Bill Troy: It's different. So
quickly, the music industry

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00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:08,700
story. If you're going to write
music, and not be a performer,

395
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really, country's probably about
the only type of music where you

396
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,330
can do that, where you can write
songs and other artists will

397
00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:18,720
perform most other types of
music, I guess, certainly, if

398
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,290
you're going to write plays, or
something like that, or, or

399
00:22:22,350 --> 00:22:24,570
classical type music, other
artists would perform, and you

400
00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:25,950
wouldn't actually be the
performer. But if you're going

401
00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:28,920
to be a pop star, or you're
going to, you know, get into the

402
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,840
world of rap or rock, you're
going to write your own

403
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,090
material, performing raw
material. But a country is a

404
00:22:33,090 --> 00:22:36,300
format where people artists
perform other people's songs and

405
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:38,370
are looking for other songs. So
that's the place where you can

406
00:22:38,370 --> 00:22:41,940
write music, and have other
people interested in performing.

407
00:22:41,970 --> 00:22:42,120
And

408
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:46,350
Janice Porter: those actually
with that, with that genre with

409
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,900
country music, they're
storytelling all the time,

410
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,020
right, more than any other
genre. So that's kind of

411
00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:56,880
interesting. Okay, thank you for
sharing that with me. And I

412
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:01,710
said, curiosity, that's my
favorite words. So I'd like to

413
00:23:01,710 --> 00:23:04,830
ask you my two part question,
which I love to ask my, my

414
00:23:04,830 --> 00:23:12,600
guests. And the first part is do
you think curiosity is innate?

415
00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:19,140
Or learned? And the second part
is, what are you most curious

416
00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:23,280
about these days? Wow, I need

417
00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:27,390
Bill Troy: I think it's both I
think that

418
00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:30,930
Janice Porter: you want me to
read this note that you sent me

419
00:23:30,930 --> 00:23:32,370
and you can talk from that?

420
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:35,790
Bill Troy: I remind Sure. Yeah.
I

421
00:23:35,790 --> 00:23:38,100
Janice Porter: just thought you
weren't? You weren't sure. Go

422
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:38,280
ahead.

423
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,140
Bill Troy: No, I'm, I'm just
thinking about them. Before we

424
00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:43,380
get into. I just think that is
both. I think that we as a

425
00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:46,020
species, we come with a certain
amount of curiosity, but I think

426
00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:48,900
we're sort of our brain is
trained and formed in childhood

427
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:52,500
and a young adulthood about
whether curiosity is rewarded.

428
00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:55,470
So I think it's encouraged,
you're not when you're growing

429
00:23:55,470 --> 00:23:59,160
up, mine was encouraged to
challenge the status quo, right.

430
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,190
So I do that as an adult. I
mean, I my parents, you know,

431
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:05,130
challenge authority, you go back
and tell them, you know, and so

432
00:24:05,130 --> 00:24:09,060
that's what I do. So I think you
come with a, like an ability for

433
00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:11,880
curiosity, but then I think it's
formed in your childhood about

434
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,940
whether you express it and go
toward it.

435
00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:17,130
Janice Porter: That's a good
answer. I've never heard that

436
00:24:17,130 --> 00:24:21,630
one before. So that makes me
want to ask you though, what did

437
00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:26,490
your parents do that, that
encouraged that? Contrary, it

438
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,320
can come prairie

439
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,790
Bill Troy: can train them that
my parents were both

440
00:24:32,790 --> 00:24:38,370
contrarians, they are just and
they taught me in both positive

441
00:24:38,370 --> 00:24:41,940
and negative reinforcement ways,
right to basically challenge

442
00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:45,150
authority. Nobody's gonna tell
you what to do. You're gonna No

443
00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:47,640
one's gonna do that. And they
even when they told me what to

444
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,940
do, my job is was to stand up to
them say no, you're not, you

445
00:24:50,940 --> 00:24:54,150
know, and I think they liked
that. They liked that. You know,

446
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:56,280
they felt like they were making
a strong man who would be able

447
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,330
to survive in a world and no
one. So that was sort of You

448
00:25:00,330 --> 00:25:04,290
know, our household challenged
the rules. Yeah. Some of those

449
00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:07,260
parents know when I got in
trouble at school. I got in

450
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:10,980
trouble. You do the crime do the
time. But I also got the wink.

451
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:16,350
So that was a good one. Don't do
it again. Yeah. Yeah, that was

452
00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:17,730
our house inside outside

453
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:22,560
Janice Porter: thing. Yes. Okay,
and, and so what are you most

454
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,820
curious about today?

455
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:28,950
Bill Troy: I'm most curious
about what's in my blind spot.

456
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,870
Right. So I don't know if you're
familiar with Johari Window. And

457
00:25:33,870 --> 00:25:37,650
people can Google that if they
want J O H, a car I window is a

458
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,260
it's a little graphic that was
designed by two guys named Joe

459
00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:43,950
and Harris. Very creative name.
But it basically divides the

460
00:25:43,950 --> 00:25:47,610
world up into what you what you
can see what you can't see. And

461
00:25:47,610 --> 00:25:50,040
then what other people can see
and what other people can't see.

462
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,700
It's a four little two by two
box. Okay. But I really, as I've

463
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:58,680
gotten older, come to realize
how much of the world in reality

464
00:25:58,710 --> 00:26:01,590
is in that blind area that I
can't see. Because I see what I

465
00:26:01,590 --> 00:26:04,110
see, I believe what I believe,
you know, like rules must be

466
00:26:04,110 --> 00:26:07,740
challenged. Well, that's not
true. It just is what I do.

467
00:26:07,770 --> 00:26:10,380
Right? So what if rules aren't
challenged. So this idea of

468
00:26:10,380 --> 00:26:13,020
questioning what's really going
on and looking for other

469
00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:17,760
possibilities is what's always
fascinating to me. And I think

470
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,680
that's where so much opportunity
lies, is to go into areas. And

471
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,780
and I mentioned this when we
were emailing back and forth

472
00:26:24,780 --> 00:26:27,720
earlier about in the areas of
adversity. So that's I mentioned

473
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,740
the Brian kite thing where he
talks about tides consultant,

474
00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:34,860
friend of mine who talks about
how humans are not we're not

475
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:38,850
capable of recognize the
difference in adversity and

476
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:42,900
opportunity. Frequently, what we
think is one thing is the other,

477
00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:45,390
you know, this looks great, and
then it crashes or this looks

478
00:26:45,390 --> 00:26:49,860
terrible, when it turns out to
be great. So what he advocates

479
00:26:49,890 --> 00:26:52,680
is that in order to succeed, you
have to go toward adversity,

480
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,450
because you just have to believe
that's opportunity, because

481
00:26:54,450 --> 00:26:56,850
you're bad at recognizing it. So
just always go toward adversity.

482
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:00,840
Love that, right? That's kind of
what I'm doing is going well,

483
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,440
okay. I don't like this. This
feels weird. I need to go toward

484
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,140
it. See what's going on there.
So that's, that's what a

485
00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:08,160
curiosity means for me.

486
00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:11,820
Janice Porter: Oh, that's really
interesting. Unless I check back

487
00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:15,390
with you and see how that has
worked out. Because that takes

488
00:27:15,390 --> 00:27:17,610
courage to write? Yes,

489
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,150
Bill Troy: really does. It takes
practice and courage because the

490
00:27:21,150 --> 00:27:23,160
beginning it's scary, you're
going toward things that are

491
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,540
scary. And, but then it's like
practicing anything else

492
00:27:27,540 --> 00:27:30,780
practicing juggling or
practicing piano, if you do it

493
00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:34,320
enough, you go, Oh, I know this,
I can do this one I'm good at so

494
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,200
you get good at going toward
adversity. And because you keep

495
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,930
realizing now every time I do
that, I find some interesting

496
00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:42,030
stuff. So it's, it's something
you can practice.

497
00:27:42,869 --> 00:27:45,149
Janice Porter: Yeah, that's
really interesting. When I think

498
00:27:45,149 --> 00:27:48,809
about things I've done, though,
that I've been very afraid of,

499
00:27:49,409 --> 00:27:53,639
like climbing to the top of a
pole and you know, jumping off

500
00:27:53,639 --> 00:27:57,329
into oblivion. I mean, I thought
the second time I got the

501
00:27:57,329 --> 00:28:03,539
opportunity to do it, I wouldn't
be as scared. But I was. So I

502
00:28:03,539 --> 00:28:06,599
did it. But I was just scared
and went through the same

503
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:09,719
emotions I went through the
first time. Like, I can't do

504
00:28:09,719 --> 00:28:12,359
this kind of thing. But I did it
anyway, another story for

505
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,769
another day. But, um, so lots of
interesting things on the

506
00:28:16,769 --> 00:28:22,949
horizon for you. I know. Because
you operate in many different

507
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,109
fields, what would you say is
the most important message that

508
00:28:28,109 --> 00:28:33,239
you might want to leave with my
listeners today? Around what

509
00:28:33,239 --> 00:28:36,719
we've really been talking about
relationships, and yeah,

510
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,710
Bill Troy: I would say that
you've got to trust your gut,

511
00:28:40,890 --> 00:28:41,970
it's there for a reason.

512
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:48,150
And the world right now, and not
just now, but the world

513
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,270
increasingly will continue to
try to take you away from your

514
00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:55,020
gut. And that whether we're
talking about cliques and

515
00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:57,660
technology tools that are trying
to convince you to, you know,

516
00:28:58,770 --> 00:29:01,080
manipulate people in line or
whatever, or whether it's, you

517
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,980
know, who knows what it is? And
I think that, you've got to go

518
00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:08,100
back to that really know what
that is it for example,

519
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,180
relationships, do you have a
good clear definition of what a

520
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:15,240
relationship is? I think a lot
of people use the word but they

521
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,620
don't really well. I don't know,
what is, Do I have a clear? Do I

522
00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:22,920
know if I have one with someone?
Right? And we do in CIVILUS, we

523
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,490
actually do that with people. I
mean, when for example, you can

524
00:29:26,490 --> 00:29:29,010
measure the relationship with
someone, when you send them a

525
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:31,980
note of any type, any kind of
email, telephone message,

526
00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:37,470
whatever, a few get one back.
That's the first indication you

527
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:40,530
have relationship. And B, if you
have a really good relationship,

528
00:29:40,710 --> 00:29:43,470
they put as much or more energy
into their response than you

529
00:29:43,470 --> 00:29:47,190
did. Right. My best friend when
I send him a note, I get a

530
00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:52,020
paragraph back, you get what? I
get a paragraph backwards and in

531
00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:56,430
one sentence, right? And so you
can say, Oh, I have a

532
00:29:56,430 --> 00:29:59,730
relationship with him where he
feels good about spending time

533
00:29:59,730 --> 00:30:03,060
with me. and investing in me,
it's not I'm trying. So you can

534
00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:05,550
actually start to realize and
measure whether you have

535
00:30:05,550 --> 00:30:08,400
relationships, you can define
it. And then you're gonna find

536
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,800
that that is something that
comes from your heart from your

537
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,560
gut. And you know if it's right
or not, and you got to stick to

538
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,770
it, there's no reason and this
is a lot of what we spend time

539
00:30:16,770 --> 00:30:19,290
with on CIVILUS. with clients,
there's no reason you have to

540
00:30:19,290 --> 00:30:23,550
sacrifice your values to
succeed. And in fact, our theory

541
00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:27,060
is that if you go toward your
values, and go toward that, what

542
00:30:27,060 --> 00:30:30,180
feels like adversity scary,
going toward my own values feels

543
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:32,700
scary. But that's the case for a
lot of people I'm going to lose

544
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:35,670
my business from and you'll find
you can be more successful,

545
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:37,680
you're gonna be more authentic,
you're going to come up with new

546
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,490
solutions. And that's what you
need to do is go toward your gut

547
00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:42,960
and not listen to other people.

548
00:30:44,790 --> 00:30:49,020
Janice Porter: Amen. I mean,
that's right. That's so true.

549
00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:53,010
And I think that's a great place
to stop because I could go here,

550
00:30:53,010 --> 00:30:57,960
there and everywhere with you. I
love that though. You know that

551
00:30:57,990 --> 00:31:01,980
it feels scary. But you have to
stick to your guns, because in

552
00:31:01,980 --> 00:31:04,770
the end, you won't love yourself
at all. If you don't, if you

553
00:31:04,770 --> 00:31:07,590
don't, right, it just wouldn't
feel right. Well,

554
00:31:07,589 --> 00:31:10,109
Bill Troy: and, you know, I'll
tell you, anecdotally, from we

555
00:31:10,109 --> 00:31:14,069
talked about the music industry
a little bit ago. When you begin

556
00:31:14,069 --> 00:31:15,959
in something like music
industry, or whatever business

557
00:31:15,959 --> 00:31:19,559
you're in, you think you're
there to satisfy other people,

558
00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:21,989
and the more other people love
you and more applause and sales

559
00:31:21,989 --> 00:31:25,829
you get that's love. And what
you'll find in the long run is

560
00:31:25,829 --> 00:31:29,819
that it's not right. You know,
the most successful music, music

561
00:31:29,819 --> 00:31:31,919
art in the world, artists in the
world end up sort of crashing

562
00:31:31,919 --> 00:31:34,409
out going well, that's just
plastic and fake. And I want to

563
00:31:34,409 --> 00:31:37,799
get back to truth and react and
real. And so it can be the same

564
00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:40,259
as as a business owner, you
start off well, this is where we

565
00:31:40,259 --> 00:31:42,509
need to go as we need to grow
and you get revenue bla bla bla

566
00:31:42,509 --> 00:31:45,689
bla, and you can get you can
take yourself away from what you

567
00:31:45,689 --> 00:31:48,989
are all about. And then you're
just you build something that

568
00:31:48,989 --> 00:31:52,859
isn't you you hate, I don't want
you to can't. So you've got to

569
00:31:52,859 --> 00:31:55,049
stick to your gut, you've got to
stick to what's what your true

570
00:31:55,049 --> 00:31:59,009
values are, and, and then insert
that into your company, and

571
00:31:59,009 --> 00:32:00,809
it'll work. That's

572
00:32:00,809 --> 00:32:03,659
Janice Porter: awesome. Thank
you for all that great advice.

573
00:32:04,169 --> 00:32:09,959
Yes. And I'm sure that the
people that listen to my show

574
00:32:09,959 --> 00:32:12,509
will appreciate hearing some of
those things and it's a lot of

575
00:32:12,509 --> 00:32:15,749
food for thought for some
people. So you know, very well

576
00:32:15,749 --> 00:32:22,679
taken and Bill. I will put in
the show notes, but where can

577
00:32:22,679 --> 00:32:26,849
people find your book or find
you if they are? Right

578
00:32:26,850 --> 00:32:30,960
Bill Troy: so the company is
Seville this consultancy IDI LIS

579
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,690
consulting.com, and I'm billing
sales consulting, and the book

580
00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:37,260
is quicksand CLI CK sa nd and
that's available on Amazon if

581
00:32:37,260 --> 00:32:40,560
they want to read it. It's
interesting historical reading.

582
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,670
And one of the things I do in
the book is talk about how this

583
00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:47,640
quicksand in we're in now is not
new. I talked about that Mark

584
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,750
Montgomery Ward catalog it's 100
year process that we're involved

585
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:54,030
with. So it's not something new.
You're not out of touch every

586
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:55,830
century.

587
00:32:57,150 --> 00:32:59,670
Janice Porter: Thank you. Thank
you so much. Thank you for your

588
00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:04,110
time. Thank you for your your
wisdom and thank you to my

589
00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:07,290
audience for listening again and
appreciate you if you like what

590
00:33:07,290 --> 00:33:10,980
you heard, please leave a review
and remember to stay connected

591
00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:12,060
and be remembered