1 00:00:03,810 --> 00:00:06,390 Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name 2 00:00:06,390 --> 00:00:08,670 is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's 3 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:11,130 passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental 4 00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:14,340 health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different 5 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:17,460 knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental 6 00:00:17,460 --> 00:00:21,090 well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to James 7 00:00:21,090 --> 00:00:24,780 McIntosh, the owner and founder of Macintosh yarn, and also the 8 00:00:24,780 --> 00:00:28,200 author of Knit and Nibble. You can find a link to James's 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,620 website and any of the patterns in yarns we discussed in the 10 00:00:31,620 --> 00:00:34,710 show notes alongside more information on mindfulness and 11 00:00:34,710 --> 00:00:37,560 the evidence base for it. Please note that during our 12 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,470 conversation, we talk about depression, homophobia and 13 00:00:40,470 --> 00:00:42,750 bereavement, but also lots about knitting 14 00:00:48,570 --> 00:00:50,430 them Hi, James, welcome to the podcast. 15 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:53,100 James McIntosh: Thank you. It's good to see you. How are you? 16 00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:54,780 Mia Hobbs: I'm good. Thanks. How are you doing? 17 00:00:55,230 --> 00:00:58,170 James McIntosh: I'm busy on a sleeve at the minute doing a 18 00:00:58,170 --> 00:01:03,810 good, lovely raglan jumper trying to trying to recover from 19 00:01:03,810 --> 00:01:05,880 second sleeve syndrome. Have you ever had it? 20 00:01:06,510 --> 00:01:09,150 Mia Hobbs: I have. I've definitely had second sock 21 00:01:09,150 --> 00:01:12,300 syndrome, I would say more than second sleeve, I do tend to knit 22 00:01:12,420 --> 00:01:16,080 top down raglans. And then you've got it's all attached. 23 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,790 And I feel like it's easier to see. I just need to do it. But 24 00:01:20,790 --> 00:01:22,050 second, socks, definitely. 25 00:01:23,110 --> 00:01:27,190 James McIntosh: I'm doing a bottom up jumper. And really 26 00:01:27,190 --> 00:01:31,030 nice bright one. Because I just want more colour in my life at 27 00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:37,360 the moment. Yeah, what I've always find is with we second 28 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,110 sleeve is a problem. So I've come up with a new idea. And I 29 00:01:41,110 --> 00:01:44,980 think it's quite clever. So do the ribbing on the cuff on one 30 00:01:45,010 --> 00:01:48,850 and then on the other, right. And then there's two sets of 31 00:01:48,850 --> 00:01:52,810 increases as you go so do the first set on one sleeve. And 32 00:01:52,810 --> 00:01:54,910 then the second, the first one on the other one and then the 33 00:01:54,910 --> 00:01:58,840 second and then knit to so many centimetres and one and the same 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:01,510 to the other. And then, you know, take off your four 35 00:02:01,510 --> 00:02:05,020 stitches and each row and then move up to the first decrease. 36 00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:07,000 And then that's how I'm doing that. So I'm doing 37 00:02:07,270 --> 00:02:09,100 Mia Hobbs: so like kind of two at a time. 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:11,530 James McIntosh: Two at a time tango 39 00:02:11,910 --> 00:02:14,070 Mia Hobbs: That sounds very clever. So you beat the the 40 00:02:14,070 --> 00:02:17,070 second sleeve syndrome. So you'd have to do the same thing over 41 00:02:17,070 --> 00:02:20,160 again. Also, I'm not great at remembering. I know in theory, 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,610 I'm following a pattern but making sure the increases are 43 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:26,250 exactly the same on the second one. I'm not sure that always 44 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:26,850 happens. 45 00:02:27,110 --> 00:02:29,570 James McIntosh: That's because you write them out. Right? Yeah. 46 00:02:29,660 --> 00:02:35,120 Row numbers and I put plus two or minus two next to the row 47 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,890 number and I just stroke them out as I go. 48 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:41,960 Mia Hobbs: That's definitely sensible. process. I would love 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,360 to hear James where your story with knitting began. 50 00:02:45,770 --> 00:02:49,520 James McIntosh: began five years ago. Okay. I would have never 51 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,150 met in my life. I always loved to a handknit jumper. There is 52 00:02:53,150 --> 00:02:55,610 something special about a hand knit jumper. 53 00:02:56,420 --> 00:02:58,850 Mia Hobbs: Even before you started you were an appreciator 54 00:02:59,030 --> 00:02:59,420 of that 55 00:02:59,420 --> 00:03:03,260 James McIntosh: Oh I loved a good jumper. You see, the 56 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:08,180 problem was I became very famous very young very quickly and won 57 00:03:08,180 --> 00:03:12,530 more world awards than I could arguably mentally cope with at 58 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:17,150 the time. And I say that no looking back. I'm 43 and a half 59 00:03:17,150 --> 00:03:21,050 at the moment. You see what I've learned is the half is really 60 00:03:21,050 --> 00:03:29,390 important. You know, because I'm not 44 It's not that I'm turning 61 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:35,630 seven. It's not 44 I, my degree was in home economics and food 62 00:03:35,630 --> 00:03:40,910 marketing. And I worked in the Good Housekeeping Institute and 63 00:03:40,910 --> 00:03:45,170 the Cordon Bleu cookery schools. And then I went freelance and my 64 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:49,280 first client and oh, we lasted for years together was Aga 65 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,300 cookers. I was worked my way up to being the global ambassador 66 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:58,730 for Aga. And I launched Aga all over the world, America, across 67 00:03:58,730 --> 00:04:03,830 Europe, Canada, and I was the man that brought Aga to China. I 68 00:04:03,830 --> 00:04:08,150 worked freelance and I also presented Food TV in China. I 69 00:04:08,150 --> 00:04:11,750 was the only Westerner that I think has ever done it. I used 70 00:04:11,780 --> 00:04:18,470 to get 100 million viewers a week on my TV shows. And I mean 71 00:04:18,470 --> 00:04:19,490 the numbers are 72 00:04:19,540 --> 00:04:23,110 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you got even conceive of that kind of numbers 73 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,160 Unknown: 1.8 billion people. Yeah. And I got less than 10% of 74 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,900 them watching my shows. So yeah, yes it wasn't quite Saturday 75 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:39,260 Kitchen. No. So it was huge. I brought all of the business home 76 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:41,870 to my native Northern Ireland and from a farm in the middle of 77 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:45,230 nowhere, but I live in London and Peckham in the posh part, as 78 00:04:45,230 --> 00:04:49,220 we call it. And I brought all the business home. And it was 79 00:04:49,220 --> 00:04:54,050 very clear that because I'm gay, that the business wasn't welcome 80 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,940 in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland and I have letters from 81 00:04:58,940 --> 00:05:03,830 senior elected Northern Irish officials denying meetings 82 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:07,490 denying investment and I Oh, it was just awful. And they 83 00:05:07,490 --> 00:05:11,300 publicly shamed me. And they hung me out to dry and they 84 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:16,490 sullied my name. And one day, I just couldn't function anymore. 85 00:05:17,030 --> 00:05:23,180 I collapsed. And I could not move my leg down the bed for a 86 00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:27,980 few weeks. My head was very dark, it did not make sense. I 87 00:05:27,980 --> 00:05:31,580 did not know what to do. And if I didn't know what to do, I 88 00:05:31,580 --> 00:05:35,600 didn't have the energy to do it. I was diagnosed with what was 89 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,890 called a moderately severe depressive episode, I spent a 90 00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:44,420 full year in bed. There was little I haven't watched on 91 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:48,800 Netflix in that year, five years ago. Because I couldn't do 92 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:56,030 anything else. Until I decided, oh, let's try knitting. Well, I 93 00:05:56,030 --> 00:05:58,970 found a pair of chopsticks and a bit of string in the flat. 94 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,830 looked on YouTube. Learnt how to cast on Thomas my other half 95 00:06:03,830 --> 00:06:06,530 came home from work. Thomas is a doctor. We'll chat about him in 96 00:06:06,530 --> 00:06:10,910 a bit. Yeah, I remember wiggling this cast on something or other 97 00:06:10,910 --> 00:06:15,230 at him. I did this today love and he goes brilliant. Let's get 98 00:06:15,230 --> 00:06:15,770 the wool, 99 00:06:17,070 --> 00:06:22,890 Mia Hobbs: so he ran with it. He what? Because yes, he asked me 100 00:06:22,890 --> 00:06:25,230 did why was it knitting? Do you think? 101 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:27,610 James McIntosh: Because what else can you do in bed when you 102 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:29,980 stuck home all day? So you see, I 103 00:06:30,070 --> 00:06:32,290 Mia Hobbs: was like you tried other things. And then that was 104 00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:33,280 the one that stuck in 105 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,440 James McIntosh: I was so scared. So anxious, so afraid. And my 106 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,280 head was so black with depression. I couldn't leave my 107 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:46,450 bed. I couldn't leave the bedroom. It was the it was 108 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:53,140 overwhelming. Anyway, Tommy got me beige alpaca and the big 12 109 00:06:53,140 --> 00:06:57,940 millimetre needles you know, we bought an Erika Knight book on 110 00:06:57,940 --> 00:07:02,440 men's knits and we knit a jumper and I couldn't read a pattern 111 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,400 really at that point. No. I still have the jumper it's a god 112 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,410 awful thing as I quoted to Knitting magazine once 15 sizes 113 00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:15,700 too big. You look like a Von Trapp child with hand knitted 114 00:07:15,700 --> 00:07:18,640 curtains for your garb. It's horrible. 115 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,640 Mia Hobbs: But it sounds like it served a very significant 116 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:22,120 purpose. 117 00:07:22,330 --> 00:07:26,350 James McIntosh: Oh, yes. It's at the back of my wardrobe. But it 118 00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:30,010 allowed me to love myself again. I when I first put that awful 119 00:07:30,010 --> 00:07:34,480 thing on a creation that I had made. Even though it was beige, 120 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,510 I looked in the mirror and I thought I made this I am worth 121 00:07:37,510 --> 00:07:43,300 something that I made for me. And you know, that beige allowed 122 00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:47,470 me to start to get a wee glimpse of colour back into my world. I 123 00:07:47,470 --> 00:07:50,770 was going to the Maudsley hospital every Thursday, I never 124 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:53,080 really expected to be an outpatient of the Maudsley 125 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,490 hospital. But you know, it was brilliant. They put me on a year 126 00:07:57,490 --> 00:08:01,150 of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Why did these words need to 127 00:08:01,150 --> 00:08:05,440 ssound so clinically? electrolyzing. You know, like, 128 00:08:05,470 --> 00:08:11,200 yeah, like lobotomy. But it was nothing like that. I mean, if 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,480 they've called it self improvement, or something like 130 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,340 that, I would've found it easier to go. But I had a therapist who 131 00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:26,530 was brilliant. She was tough. She was tough. And she helped me 132 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:35,590 realise that many times in life, I was not wrong. Because I was 133 00:08:35,590 --> 00:08:43,090 different. Because I'm gay, in my native Northern Ireland, that 134 00:08:44,470 --> 00:08:50,230 my thoughts and my feelings were worth something. And that I was 135 00:08:50,230 --> 00:08:55,240 worth something. So I came home one night and what what I really 136 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:01,120 appreciated about psycho dynamic psychotherapy was, you would do 137 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,630 you hour, I was a Thursday I went, and then you'd have a 138 00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:09,280 whole week to think about what you've done in that hour to come 139 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,160 back and complain next week. And then she would ask you why you 140 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,760 were complaining? And are you were feeling that the key to it 141 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,570 was that week in between? I would do a bit of my knitting at 142 00:09:19,570 --> 00:09:26,560 home. And I realised that as a stitch is tangible, and vital in 143 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:32,530 a knitted project. So my feelings are tangible to me. And 144 00:09:32,530 --> 00:09:35,830 if that stitch wasn't there, the whole thing would unravel. 145 00:09:35,860 --> 00:09:36,760 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's true. 146 00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:42,130 James McIntosh: And it would fall apart. So my thoughts and 147 00:09:42,130 --> 00:09:49,960 my feelings were worth something to me and part of me. And I 148 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:54,370 joked one night and said this is knititation. Nothing for 149 00:09:54,370 --> 00:09:57,280 fidgeters. I've got this busy brain. It's always busy. It was 150 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,780 always too fast. And I can't sit there do this meditation 151 00:10:01,780 --> 00:10:03,640 malarkey or this mindfulness? 152 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,780 Mia Hobbs: I think you tried to do that had you before? 153 00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:10,660 James McIntosh: Oh, yes, yes. I'll tell you about that in a 154 00:10:10,660 --> 00:10:15,190 second? That doesn't work. But one stitch and then another 155 00:10:15,190 --> 00:10:22,450 allows a sense of calm, it stops me fidgeting. So, I realised if 156 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:28,300 I knit consciously and mindfully, which means no 157 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:31,960 television, no radio, consciously feeling my feet on 158 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,320 the floor, my bum in the seat, my back in the chair, the 159 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,920 needles, the wool flowing through my fingers, and accept 160 00:10:38,950 --> 00:10:44,500 those feelings and sensations in my body without judging, 161 00:10:44,530 --> 00:10:48,880 analysing or changing them, or evaluating them, just accept 162 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,500 them. Yeah. That it will not solve the world's problems, but 163 00:10:53,500 --> 00:11:00,850 it will help me solve mine. And that I will be able to cope. 164 00:11:01,660 --> 00:11:05,980 Well I got out of bed, I got my life back. But the bit in the 165 00:11:05,980 --> 00:11:10,150 middle of all of this is Thomas my other half. Thomas is a 166 00:11:10,150 --> 00:11:13,750 senior consultant physician in a large central London teaching 167 00:11:13,750 --> 00:11:16,990 hospital. And he's also a fellow of the Royal College of 168 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:21,190 Physicians. Thomas's inpatients are geriatrics and his 169 00:11:21,220 --> 00:11:24,220 outpatients are related to autonomics. That's faint 170 00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:29,140 blackouts and dizzy spells to you and me. Well, Thomas, is 171 00:11:29,140 --> 00:11:34,450 very into his mindfulness. He's the only NHS consultant that we 172 00:11:34,450 --> 00:11:38,290 know of, that has taken mindfulness outside of 173 00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:43,060 psychiatry, and into clinical medicine. And Thomas uses 174 00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:47,020 mindfulness to treat chronic illness and chronic pain. And he 175 00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:51,580 may he may practices mindfulness for three hours a day, every 176 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:56,410 day. Wow. Yeah, I know. We've just celebrated 10 years 177 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:57,520 together last week. 178 00:11:57,690 --> 00:11:58,770 Mia Hobbs: Congratulations. 179 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:06,390 James McIntosh: Thank you It is an achievement. Yeah. So Thomas, 180 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:12,120 for every night and morning, I have watched him do an hour of 181 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,450 mindfulness before bed, when he wakens up and an hour at 182 00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:21,510 lunchtime. And I have seen the fruits of this in his life, in 183 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:24,960 my life, and in our lives together, but I couldn't do 184 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,660 this. And he would go Oh, James you have to do this we tried the 185 00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:30,780 mindful movements. You know, we do the lower cobra on the floor. 186 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:34,980 And yeah, I wasn't having any of this it didn't work for me. As 187 00:12:34,980 --> 00:12:38,670 we say in Northern Ireland. It did not float my boat. Yeah. The 188 00:12:38,670 --> 00:12:43,050 knitting. malarkey works for me. Hmm. And knitting as a form of 189 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:47,400 mindfulness, not as a distraction technique works. 190 00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:50,210 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And how did you guys was that a combination of 191 00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:54,230 the two of you like was that Thomas adding his mindfulness 192 00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:56,990 slant? It sounds like when you're doing it like that, it is 193 00:12:57,020 --> 00:13:00,890 a very specific way of doing knitting. It's not about you 194 00:13:00,890 --> 00:13:04,850 know how most people do knitting watching TV or, you know, it is 195 00:13:04,850 --> 00:13:08,750 a very, much a mindfulness method of knitting. It's very 196 00:13:08,750 --> 00:13:09,500 specific. 197 00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:13,490 James McIntosh: Yeah, I mean, I get out of bed in the morning. 198 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:19,550 Yeah, I make myself a cuppa. And I sit in my office and just do 199 00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:22,790 hours knitting. Okay? And that's 200 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:25,970 Mia Hobbs: doing it mindfully, like, Thomas, does this 201 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:26,720 meditation? 202 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,770 James McIntosh: Yeah, you know, then I watch the news after 203 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,850 that. And, you know, the news is on a loop at that time in the 204 00:13:34,850 --> 00:13:39,080 morning, so you're not gonna miss much. And if you what I 205 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,430 learned was if I set my mind correctly at the start of the 206 00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:49,070 day, the rest of the day flows. Now, what's really interesting 207 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:54,530 about my story, is there is no evidence that's been peer 208 00:13:54,530 --> 00:13:59,750 reviewed, or anecdotal that we have found that shows how 209 00:13:59,750 --> 00:14:05,900 knitting or mindfulness can get you out of depression. Right. 210 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:11,000 There is evidence to suggest that mindfulness based stress 211 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:19,190 reduction MBSR Yeah. Will delay will reduce the statistics of 212 00:14:19,190 --> 00:14:22,310 someone who's had moderately severe and severe depression 213 00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:28,880 from suffering again, right. Okay. What this has done for me 214 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,470 is it got me better. This is my story. We cannot say this 215 00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:38,330 medically. But this is my testimony and my story, and I am 216 00:14:38,330 --> 00:14:44,270 alive and I am well and I am healthy because of knititation. 217 00:14:45,020 --> 00:14:48,560 I lost my business over what happened. I've been able to 218 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,220 start a business. It's doing brilliant. Yeah, I mean, 219 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,450 McIntosh Wool, I hand dye all the wool myself. It's pure, 220 00:14:56,450 --> 00:15:03,620 beautiful British wool. I do. Deramores, Do you know Deramores 221 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,180 the wool retailer, well they've just started to stock me, and 222 00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:11,450 we're doing a whole campaign about living life with more 223 00:15:11,450 --> 00:15:14,330 colour, but how to have more colour in your life, this colour 224 00:15:14,330 --> 00:15:20,300 is like colours health colour is healing, the more colour I can 225 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:25,520 surround myself with, hmm, the better because it helps me stay 226 00:15:25,550 --> 00:15:26,090 alive. 227 00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:30,230 Mia Hobbs: So that's another therapeutic part of the knitting 228 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:34,580 process surrounding yourself. Yeah, I mean, I certainly have 229 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:37,580 times when I'm like, I need to knit with pink and yellow. 230 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,700 Because that's what I want to be around you just about you have a 231 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:42,890 long relationship with a knitting project when it's a big 232 00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:46,160 garment. Don't you like it its in your hands, in your life? 233 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,970 James McIntosh: You see, you may have the luxury of that. I 234 00:15:49,970 --> 00:15:55,670 don't. I have to be fast? Yeah. Do you know how many tension 235 00:15:55,670 --> 00:16:00,320 squares I have to knit for the shop or retailer to see it. 236 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,440 Anytime a new fibre comes to me, I need to play with it. So I I'm 237 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,730 doing a sleeve a day at the moment. So that is quite I know. 238 00:16:13,190 --> 00:16:17,330 so yes, I have my meditation, my mindful knitting first thing in 239 00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:21,620 the morning. And then I do a lot of reading on the computer while 240 00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:25,340 I am speed knitting to get garments for photography. Yeah. 241 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:27,860 Mia Hobbs: And has your relationship with knitting 242 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:30,500 changed now that it's I don't know, when the yarn brand 243 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:31,910 started. How long ago was that? 244 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,740 James McIntosh: You see what happened was I got better. And 245 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:40,760 then Thomas and I decided to go on holiday. And we we went we 246 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:46,280 decided to go to pride in Tel Aviv. Okay, the plane landed in 247 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,460 Tel Aviv. We can go on the phone and Thomas's mum had dropped 248 00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:49,730 dead. 249 00:16:49,980 --> 00:16:51,810 Mia Hobbs: Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that. 250 00:16:52,950 --> 00:16:55,920 James McIntosh: Well, Thomas is German. What do we do? Stay 251 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,100 here, go back to London go to Germany. We did not know what to 252 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,640 do. She died at home. The police took six weeks in Germany just 253 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,630 to make sure all was okay. And it was just awful. We went to 254 00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:10,470 Jerusalem. It was a beautiful city to go to when you're in 255 00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:14,820 that sort of situation. We have the funeral in Germany. And the 256 00:17:14,820 --> 00:17:18,270 day after my mum was diagnosed with late term ovarian cancer. 257 00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:20,100 Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm so sorry. 258 00:17:20,250 --> 00:17:22,620 James McIntosh: Nine months to the day. The Thomas's mother 259 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:26,190 passed mine did and it was the first week of lockdown. There 260 00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:29,910 were no flights from London to Belfast. I held my knitting 261 00:17:29,910 --> 00:17:34,140 tighter. I was the only one I remember in Heathrow terminal 262 00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:38,850 five that day. When I got home, my mom who was 71 looked 95. 263 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:43,410 There was no morphine available. My mother screamed for hours in 264 00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:46,350 my arms, because the health system in Northern Ireland had 265 00:17:46,350 --> 00:17:47,100 collapsed. 266 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,170 Mia Hobbs: So sorry, 267 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,760 James McIntosh: We were not allowed a funeral. We were not 268 00:17:49,000 --> 00:18:02,140 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So you really have kind of kept yourself going 269 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,490 allowed neighbours. We were not allowed family. We were not 270 00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:58,720 allowed support. We were on our own. And my knitting stayed in 271 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,950 my hands. And that stitch was a breath and the next one was a 272 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:16,300 with the knitting through all of that trauma. 273 00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:07,120 scream of pain and the next was a loving memory. And if it w 274 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:13,270 sn't for that knitting, but I have not been depressed since 275 00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:18,610 managed to get through this hor endous tsunami. I did not get de 276 00:18:17,200 --> 00:19:20,020 James McIntosh: I mean, the best credit, a lot of it was there 277 00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:23,860 ressed again. I then managed to ive up smoking by stopping by k 278 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:29,290 itting. I'd smoked for 23 ye rs. 20 a day. I am six month 279 00:18:29,290 --> 00:18:33,220 and two weeks smoke and nicot ne free. Do I see the health 280 00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:36,700 enefits? Yeah, don't cough on t e pillow every morning. And th 281 00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:40,450 t wee bit on my finger's not y llow anymore. There's mor 282 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:44,140 to this knitting malarkey than meets the eye. So when I st 283 00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:48,430 rt my business, I started Macint sh Wool two years ago, but I h 284 00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:54,460 d to take a year out because f Mum. Oh sure. Yeah. And 285 00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:58,570 ou know, it's a blessing. And we just want to spread the 286 00:18:58,570 --> 00:19:02,350 good news about knitting. And e, human and tell people it's 287 00:19:02,350 --> 00:19:05,710 okay to cry. It's okay to bre k down. Just hold something in 288 00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:07,930 our two hands and make a s itch because that s 289 00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:24,010 was somebody in the Olympics, who decided to do my marketing 290 00:19:24,010 --> 00:19:28,210 for me. I wasn't the only wee boy knitting You know, there was 291 00:19:28,210 --> 00:19:31,540 another one. I just stopped back and I just thought he'd gone. 292 00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:36,400 But I've never seen items as fast in my life as what was 293 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,510 coming off a certain Instagram profile. Hey, yeah. 294 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:45,070 Mia Hobbs: So yes, Tom Daley was doing the marketing for you. Did 295 00:19:45,070 --> 00:19:48,490 you like I did get hundreds of your friends who don't have 296 00:19:48,490 --> 00:19:51,640 nothing to do with knitting sending you. Have you seen this 297 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:52,450 at the olympics? 298 00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:57,970 James McIntosh: you seen this? Have you seen this? Yes. Yes, 299 00:19:58,060 --> 00:20:00,640 just because he looks better than me with his top off is not 300 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:01,570 my problem 301 00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:03,670 Mia Hobbs: the rest of us just don't do it in speedos. 302 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:09,090 James McIntosh: So no knitting has saved my life. Well, I would 303 00:20:09,090 --> 00:20:12,600 have committed suicide by now without it. Men don't talk men 304 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:20,490 can't talk. And I was watching a lot of the parliamentary Select 305 00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:25,440 Committee yesterday. About Yorkshire cricket. Oh, yes. And 306 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,180 I was very interested to hear the guy who was racially abused. 307 00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:35,430 He said, for a lot of my life. I went along with things they 308 00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:41,340 said, because they told me it wasn't racist. And I know that 309 00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:46,740 from homophobia in Northern Ireland. It was okay, all my 310 00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:52,500 life for people to call me a poof or a fruit. And I had to 311 00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:56,910 accept that was okay. And it's only now that we are getting the 312 00:20:56,910 --> 00:21:01,080 freedom to say I am worth something. Don't call me that. 313 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:03,780 Knitting has given me the strength for that. 314 00:21:04,110 --> 00:21:05,820 Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's amazing. 315 00:21:06,479 --> 00:21:08,039 James McIntosh: Oh, we'll get great jumpers too. 316 00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:12,360 Mia Hobbs: But you know, the other stuff, you know, and I 317 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:15,180 think it can take some time to go back over all those memories 318 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:18,360 and think actually, that wasn't okay. Yeah. 319 00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:20,730 James McIntosh: I don't like doing moss stitch because 320 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:22,650 there's too much back and forwards. And I use that as 321 00:21:22,650 --> 00:21:23,370 anger management. 322 00:21:27,020 --> 00:21:31,220 Mia Hobbs: And, I mean, does does the type of knitting make a 323 00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:35,450 difference to you? Do you? Does it matter whether it's like you 324 00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:39,680 said moss stitch or stockinette or a pattern or colour work or, 325 00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:41,510 or not particularly? 326 00:21:42,050 --> 00:21:46,940 James McIntosh: It depends what I do I There is not enough in 327 00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:51,260 the market for men. It is really hard to get a nice pattern for a 328 00:21:51,260 --> 00:21:56,420 bloke you know, the market, it's barren for it. I wrote a book on 329 00:21:56,420 --> 00:22:01,820 it, Knit and Nibble, but apart from that, there's not much. Um, 330 00:22:02,330 --> 00:22:05,120 Mia Hobbs: there was a men's Knitting magazine for a while. I 331 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:05,990 don't know if it's still around. 332 00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:07,340 James McIntosh: Rib. No it's gone. 333 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:08,240 Mia Hobbs: Oh, has it? 334 00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:14,930 James McIntosh: You know, then we had I tried to stick to 335 00:22:14,930 --> 00:22:18,050 blokes and gender neutral. I will expand into other things 336 00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:20,540 but I'm a small company, you know, and I'm only just starting 337 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:23,240 to get knitting patterns together now for my brand. Yeah, 338 00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:28,460 I can't stand intarsia I just can't those bobbins get all 339 00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:32,300 messed up. I just don't want that in my life. Yeah. Other 340 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,410 people seem to like it. Yeah, do love a good bit of fairisle. I 341 00:22:36,410 --> 00:22:40,400 mean, a multicoloured stranded yoke can just bring so much joy, 342 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,740 it can tell a story. And you can knit your mood in it. You know, 343 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:49,250 your pattern repeats. I hate doing the mathematics for 344 00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:52,070 knitting. But Thomas does that. For me. He's great with a 345 00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:54,290 calculator, and he enjoys that 346 00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:56,900 Mia Hobbs: for patterns do you mean for developing patterns. 347 00:22:57,140 --> 00:23:00,710 Yeah, yeah. Right, like calculating yards and that kind 348 00:23:00,710 --> 00:23:01,010 of thing. 349 00:23:01,430 --> 00:23:04,130 James McIntosh: I mean, if he can do morphine doses and stuff 350 00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:07,610 that's important in hospital in his head and he can, he can do 351 00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:12,290 shaping of garments as well. I just don't enjoy that bit. 352 00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:13,940 Mia Hobbs: Does he knit? 353 00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:15,890 James McIntosh: No, I've banned him from knitting. 354 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,240 Mia Hobbs: Okay. It's your thing. 355 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,270 James McIntosh: That's my thing. He doesn't have time to be 356 00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:25,100 honest. He does crochet which I'm trying to learn. Okay. Do 357 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:25,850 you crochet? 358 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,690 Mia Hobbs: Well, I have and I do occasionally. And if I was 359 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,300 making a toy or something 3D, I might choose crochet over 360 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,420 knitting, maybe because I've done a couple because I wanted 361 00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:45,940 the thing to give to somebody or something. And I don't find it 362 00:23:46,330 --> 00:23:50,890 as I don't choose it. anywhere near as often as knitting. I 363 00:23:50,890 --> 00:23:55,450 also think in terms of the physical action, I would get 364 00:23:55,450 --> 00:23:59,590 more kind of RSI type pain. If I did it. And I think I prefer the 365 00:23:59,620 --> 00:24:01,450 fabric of knitting personally. 366 00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:04,060 James McIntosh: I'm trying to learn crochet at the moment. And 367 00:24:04,060 --> 00:24:07,120 if any listeners would like to come I will cook lunch if you'd 368 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:11,650 show because every online video I've looked on how to do a 369 00:24:11,650 --> 00:24:16,390 granny square the I get lost? No. Okay. I'm not daft I've got 370 00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:22,180 a Master of Arts Degree. Yeah, I can follow things, but they show 371 00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:26,020 you once. And then they go really fast and finish. Oh, 372 00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:30,700 okay. I need to see what the treble is again, please. Slow 373 00:24:30,730 --> 00:24:30,880 down! 374 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Mia Hobbs: I think we, you know, I started knitting before. I 375 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,920 think YouTube was a thing, but I think it is much easier 376 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,070 generally to learn from because I think I learned from a book. 377 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,830 But much easier to learn from seeing somebody and I've had a 378 00:24:47,830 --> 00:24:50,200 couple of people who've asked me to teach them to knit over zoom 379 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,020 and I'm thinking really would be quite challenging. I think it's 380 00:24:53,020 --> 00:24:56,680 better to watch a video produced by somebody who has a proper 381 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,600 camera that's on their hands. For example. 382 00:24:59,530 --> 00:25:04,480 James McIntosh: I For Oh, for three years until lockdown, I 383 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,450 haven't re-started. I ran a knitting group in Peckham. Okay. 384 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,800 Yeah, we get up to 96 came. I mean, it was. Yeah. But 385 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,010 everybody needed to learn to knit. Right? Yeah. So you start 386 00:25:15,010 --> 00:25:18,100 with a tension square. If you can get your tension, you can go 387 00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:22,180 on to a hat. Well, it was 96 drop stitches. Well I gave up, 388 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:27,850 okay, if I bought everybody a Jager bomb at the bar. 96 389 00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:28,480 dropped stitches. 390 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:32,500 Mia Hobbs: They were all new knitters, were they? Oh, wow. 391 00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:34,840 That's, I mean, that's a lot. I'm running a therapeutic 392 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,600 knitting group in a primary school. And I've found eight new 393 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,020 knitters, you know, a lot. They are children. So they've 394 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:44,740 obviously got other, you know, I have to also help them find the 395 00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:49,750 scissors or allow them to go to the toilet and that kind of 396 00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:53,410 thing. But, yeah, I think you do need an element of one to one 397 00:25:53,410 --> 00:25:55,240 support when you're just starting, don't you and then 398 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,850 once you've got the flow of things, I think the other thing 399 00:25:57,850 --> 00:26:00,520 that's challenging over Zoom is sometimes you do just need to 400 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,920 hand your knitting to somebody who knows what on earth has 401 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,920 happened when it's gone wrong. And get them to help you 402 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,670 James McIntosh: we're actually recording this over zoom, as do 403 00:26:09,670 --> 00:26:11,380 you want this sleeve, because theres a dropped stitch you can 404 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:12,520 see it as you're interviewing. 405 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,180 There's a dropped stitch is there? No 406 00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:21,120 Of course there is, I'll fix it up later at the end. It's for 407 00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:27,810 photography. No you do. And th re is something caring about 408 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,160 eaching someone to knits, you k ow, there is I am inter 409 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,170 sted in your well being let m work with you. It's about a fri 410 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,390 ndliness. It's you can talk bout things that are perso 411 00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:46,980 al. And talk about things that re deep. You can talk about 412 00:26:46,980 --> 00:26:53,010 life love, and you know, wash n cold water, dry flat and ri 413 00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:57,840 se and repeat. Yeah, life is tho e stitches. 414 00:26:58,170 --> 00:27:01,080 Mia Hobbs: Do you feel like people talk more in a knitting 415 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,720 group kind of environment? Because I suppose I wonder 416 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,200 whether the lack of kind of intense eye contact and people 417 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,230 kind of talk as they work on something. And sometimes that 418 00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:13,560 makes people more likely to share something because they're 419 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,090 busy with their hands. 420 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:19,170 James McIntosh: One lady came to knitting group one night, her 421 00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:22,770 husband died that morning. She just wanted to be at her 422 00:27:22,770 --> 00:27:27,030 knitting group. Yeah, because she knew she could talk. And 423 00:27:27,030 --> 00:27:31,320 what an honour an honour it is. To start something with somebody 424 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,160 will tell you that. I just gave her the biggest hug. 425 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,520 Mia Hobbs: I've found you know, it's a way of giving someone 426 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,950 comforts it's really hard, isn't it when someone's been through a 427 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:43,410 bereavement from the outside to know what. 428 00:27:43,530 --> 00:27:45,240 James McIntosh: tell me about it from the inside. 429 00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:47,790 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, exactly. And that's a whole nother story. But 430 00:27:48,060 --> 00:27:50,490 even from the outside thinking, how can I be helpful to this 431 00:27:50,490 --> 00:27:52,920 person, but I guess sitting alongside them and knitting 432 00:27:53,790 --> 00:27:54,270 without, 433 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,430 James McIntosh: at a time, one stitch at a time. It's not a 434 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:02,430 race unless you own the wool company 435 00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:06,150 Mia Hobbs: And has that changed how you feel about the knitting. 436 00:28:06,150 --> 00:28:07,170 James. I'm wondering. 437 00:28:08,670 --> 00:28:11,520 James McIntosh: I have my knitting. Yeah, and I have my 438 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:12,180 work knitting 439 00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:13,500 Mia Hobbs: Okay, so that's separate. 440 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:18,240 James McIntosh: Yeah. Work is about coloured blocks and stitch 441 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:25,080 patterns. My knitting is about a jumper for me. Yeah. No. As we 442 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,770 talk, I've sent some stuff out to designers. And I'm absolutely 443 00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:35,520 shocked that a two skein shawl has been knit in three days. And 444 00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:38,100 when we come off this interview, I'm going to have a look to see 445 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:40,290 what it is because I've been sent a picture of it. They can't 446 00:28:40,290 --> 00:28:44,670 wait. I don't know how Brian Smith Designs has knit that 447 00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:45,480 fast. 448 00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:47,460 Mia Hobbs: Wow. That's very fast. 449 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,360 James McIntosh: I know. 450 00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:51,840 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Is knitting ever unhelpful for your mental 451 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:52,260 health? 452 00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:56,880 James McIntosh: No, no, no, because, you know, his best bet 453 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,100 is if you get really peeved off with a pattern, yeah, you just 454 00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:06,570 put it in the bag. I've got 72 of them. My PhDs my project half 455 00:29:06,570 --> 00:29:11,820 dones. Oh, I haven't found it. I have knit everywhere. I mean, 456 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,050 everywhere. Around the world, knitting. There is no problem 457 00:29:16,050 --> 00:29:19,500 getting needles on a plane. I have. 458 00:29:19,620 --> 00:29:22,860 Mia Hobbs: I used to worry a lot about that though. I did bring a 459 00:29:22,860 --> 00:29:24,960 crochet hook once because I was thinking well, they're not 460 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,430 surely they're not going to take that off me. 461 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,120 James McIntosh: I just cry at security. Don't take my needles 462 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,450 away. And I've knit in nightclubs I used to knit in the 463 00:29:35,450 --> 00:29:40,910 Royal Vauxhall Tavern and discos to get things finished. i Oh, 464 00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,480 the night bus used to be really good the N63 night bus in 465 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,020 London. Yeah, I've knit everywhere. Do you know you only 466 00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:51,650 ever get a smile and you are just sending love from your 467 00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:55,460 knitting needle to somebody else? And there was one night 468 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,330 and these blokes got on the N63 Night bus Thomas and I were 469 00:29:59,330 --> 00:30:04,640 coming home from a Night Club and let's just say they looked 470 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,270 like they were well oiled gentlemen with alcohol. Yeah. 471 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,960 And he was a big bruiser. And there was a fight about to 472 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,490 start. And he looks at me and he goes, my granny used to do that, 473 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:23,390 can I feel your balls? I said, Excuse me. I said, my Merino. He 474 00:30:23,390 --> 00:30:29,090 calmed down, he sat beside me. And he said, that wool just 475 00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:31,670 feels like what my granny used to knit for me. And she was 476 00:30:31,670 --> 00:30:32,570 really, kind to me. 477 00:30:33,890 --> 00:30:34,940 Mia Hobbs: That's amazing. 478 00:30:35,570 --> 00:30:36,860 James McIntosh: I was about to die. 479 00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:40,670 Mia Hobbs: It diffused everything 480 00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:44,950 James McIntosh: Do you know what knitting makes you smile, it 481 00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:50,710 gives people hope. And I think specially, during and after the 482 00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:56,650 pandemic, especially with the climate crisis. You know, we 483 00:30:56,650 --> 00:31:00,760 need to look at our fibres carefully now, I know not 484 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:06,760 everybody can afford new wool. But we need to consider manmade 485 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,990 fibres carefully. We need to consider what the petrochemical 486 00:31:10,990 --> 00:31:15,250 industry makes, we need to consider making yarns out of 487 00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:20,110 kerosene. And we need to be careful about this. Because the 488 00:31:20,110 --> 00:31:24,130 fossil fuel it takes to make them and they don't biodegrade. 489 00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:29,380 And we need to look at this and it is I don't have an answer. 490 00:31:29,710 --> 00:31:35,380 Yeah. I know the price of hand dyed pure British wool, yeah, 491 00:31:35,410 --> 00:31:36,970 not everybody can afford that. 492 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,680 Mia Hobbs: Yes, it's expensive. 493 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:43,220 James McIntosh: It is. And I'm not yarn shaming. I'm looking at 494 00:31:43,220 --> 00:31:48,500 a debate. There's also a medical research paper that's out you 495 00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:53,360 can it's very easy to Google and it shows where there is acrylic 496 00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:58,130 fibre in human lung tissue, okay. Right. This is this is 497 00:31:58,130 --> 00:32:04,550 serious, you know. But we have to look at this sensibly, we 498 00:32:04,550 --> 00:32:07,670 have to look at microplastics but all this will start to 499 00:32:07,670 --> 00:32:13,400 happen. You know, COP26, I must say to get as far as they did 500 00:32:13,490 --> 00:32:17,120 with so many nations and so many cultures and so much invested 501 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,660 financial interest for countries. I was impressed 502 00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:24,830 knitting, for me is mental health, but knitting is life. It 503 00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:28,700 is family, it is society, it is environment. It is industry, it 504 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:33,650 is economics, it is farming, it is food production. It is it is 505 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,310 politics. Knitting is not just one thing. 506 00:32:37,620 --> 00:32:40,650 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can make, I don't know demonstrate your 507 00:32:40,650 --> 00:32:44,730 values, I suppose. And make choices about your politics by 508 00:32:44,730 --> 00:32:49,290 what yarn you choose and what fibres you're using and 509 00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:53,530 James McIntosh: what Pussy hat you wear. And that I am proud of 510 00:32:53,530 --> 00:32:57,370 you know, the pussy hat whenever Trump was a little bit crude 511 00:32:57,370 --> 00:33:01,630 with his as he called locker room talk. unexcusable 512 00:33:02,170 --> 00:33:03,160 ignorance. 513 00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:05,650 Mia Hobbs: Do you want to just explain for people who don't 514 00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:08,830 know about that? Because it was a few years ago now, isn't it 515 00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:09,970 when Trump was elected 516 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,900 James McIntosh: When Trump was elected He said the most 517 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:16,560 disgusting thing about females about why he wanted to grab 518 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,160 them. And he excused it by saying it was a locker room 519 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,180 talk. Well, I'm sorry. That was degrading, misogynistic, and 520 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:30,720 just, quite frankly, disgusting. So the ladies in America decided 521 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,760 right can, we do best knitting. But they do other things better. 522 00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:37,830 So what they were doing was actually playing to the 523 00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:41,550 stereotype and just saying, don't mess with us. So they 524 00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:45,960 developed what was termed the pussy hat is what we would know 525 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,670 Shapeways as a tea bag hat. So a large rectangle folded over and 526 00:33:50,670 --> 00:33:54,900 it was in pink. And they used a yarn originally from a wonderful 527 00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:57,750 company I know very well in South America called Malabrigo. 528 00:33:58,620 --> 00:34:03,000 And they developed this and they wore it in their 1000s to the 529 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,590 rallies to protest against Trump. And if something so 530 00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:12,300 innocent as knitting can make a colourful sea of statement 531 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:18,570 across the world, what hope is there for us in those stitches 532 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,210 and how blessed are we to knit those stitches? 533 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,270 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really is knitted politics. 534 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,580 James McIntosh: It's knitted life is visibility to the to the 535 00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:34,200 invisible in society. It is saying I am here. This is my 536 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,570 statement, and you will see me I will knit because I am worth 537 00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:42,960 something like those knitted stitches are worth something. 538 00:34:44,130 --> 00:34:45,810 Oh, I'm all for knitting. Yeah. 539 00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:50,250 Mia Hobbs: And it's so important and it has been throughout your 540 00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:56,790 life in so many different ways, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I 541 00:34:56,820 --> 00:35:00,180 always ask on the podcast about a significant project. If you 542 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:02,820 wouldn't mind telling me it sounds like there's been a lot. 543 00:35:03,420 --> 00:35:03,900 James McIntosh: There was one. 544 00:35:04,140 --> 00:35:05,400 Mia Hobbs: There's one. Okay. 545 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,640 James McIntosh: There was one. I grew up with a lady called 546 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:13,190 Kerry. And she she married a friend of ours called Dean on 547 00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:18,860 the farm next door. And when mum died, she came with a casserole. 548 00:35:20,450 --> 00:35:23,180 And she jumped out of the car and said James. I know there's 549 00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:26,750 COVID I am giving you a hug, because you need one. Kerry came 550 00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:31,370 to see me every day. And it was lockdown. And I wanted to say 551 00:35:31,370 --> 00:35:35,900 thank you when I got back to London, and I knit a blanket. 552 00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:44,780 it was known as a Hue Afghan Shift blanket. Okay, I can't 553 00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:50,540 remember who designed it. I can look it up on Ravelry. Okay. And 554 00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:56,090 it was mitre squares that joined together, it was huge. And it 555 00:35:56,090 --> 00:36:00,050 made a cross in the middle and an just a display of colour from 556 00:36:00,050 --> 00:36:05,810 top to bottom corner to corner is gorgeous. And I knit it for 557 00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:09,770 Kerry one stitch at a time. It was all done in garter stitch. 558 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,450 So I could put my grief and my tears into that without having 559 00:36:14,450 --> 00:36:20,180 to think Yeah. And as this grew, and as the colours grew, I 560 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:23,450 realised that the end there was a beautiful yellow cross in the 561 00:36:23,450 --> 00:36:28,610 middle of it. And then this was my grief blanket, I called it 562 00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:34,220 and you know what? The most important bit of that blanket 563 00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:40,460 was giving it away. And I gave it to Kerry. And I was just 564 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:45,140 like, I had to give my mum away. My tears and the pain and my 565 00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:48,530 feeling and my anger and my happiness and my sad and my 566 00:36:48,530 --> 00:36:54,020 worry and My strength. And every fibre of what I was struggling 567 00:36:54,020 --> 00:36:56,510 with, I put into that blanket. 568 00:36:58,070 --> 00:37:00,050 Mia Hobbs: And that's amazing actually James the bit about 569 00:37:00,050 --> 00:37:03,170 giving it away because I've heard a few other people talk 570 00:37:03,170 --> 00:37:05,780 about significant projects and getting them through 571 00:37:05,780 --> 00:37:06,740 bereavements. 572 00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:09,140 James McIntosh: Yeah, you have to give it away, and then it's, 573 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,570 Mia Hobbs: but I haven't heard anyone else who's given it away. 574 00:37:11,570 --> 00:37:14,210 And that's really interesting that you know, the parallel with 575 00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:16,910 having to give your mum away 576 00:37:16,660 --> 00:37:20,530 James McIntosh: Grief has to be shared. Grief has to be shared 577 00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:23,770 because there were many people who loved my mum. I mean, mum, 578 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,110 mum was a home economics teacher. She was a farmer's 579 00:37:26,110 --> 00:37:30,580 wife. She ran the ladies group in church, she ran the, the 580 00:37:30,580 --> 00:37:34,060 infants and babies and toddlers group in church and mum was the 581 00:37:34,060 --> 00:37:39,310 community. And we were not allowed a funeral. Do you know 582 00:37:39,310 --> 00:37:43,000 what that was? Like? We were allowed 10 minutes in the 583 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:50,290 garden. So I had to do something for Kerry, who loved my mum too 584 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,980 who I had to do something to make this all, it will never be 585 00:37:53,980 --> 00:38:00,730 okay. Yeah, but I had to set Mum free in my heart. Yeah. And I 586 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,480 did it. And I gave it away because the metaphor of if you 587 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,470 really love someone, you set them free is not about love and 588 00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:12,220 two teenagers falling out when they're going out. It's about 589 00:38:12,220 --> 00:38:16,360 losing, deeply losing. But you know, my mum's still with me I 590 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,000 chat to her every day. We talk about the stitches. 591 00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:20,380 Mia Hobbs: Was she a knitter? 592 00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:25,060 James McIntosh: Oh, yes. Okay.Oh, yeah. Oh, mum, knitting 593 00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:28,780 and crocheting crafts. And our mum was stunning at it and 594 00:38:28,780 --> 00:38:30,040 embroidery. And yeah. 595 00:38:30,070 --> 00:38:32,200 Mia Hobbs: Do you think maybe that planted a seed for you? 596 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,690 Like maybe that was why your brain went to that place when 597 00:38:34,690 --> 00:38:36,730 you were needing something you could do in your bed? 598 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,300 James McIntosh: Oh, no. Mum said to me quite clearly. Boys don't 599 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:44,470 do that. It's okay. So mum came over in the middle of my 600 00:38:44,470 --> 00:38:47,650 depression and brought her to John Lewis. And that's how it 601 00:38:47,650 --> 00:38:52,720 all started really. So yeah. Mum Mum helped me a lot with it. And 602 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,450 for Knit and Nibble. Mum did some of the some of the jumpers 603 00:38:55,450 --> 00:38:55,930 for me, but 604 00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:58,540 Mia Hobbs: Okay, so you did knit together later on? 605 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,150 James McIntosh: Well, she did it in Northern Ireland. I did it 606 00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:04,240 here, pray the Lord for FaceTime. And yeah, away we go. 607 00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:09,280 Yeah. So yeah. This hasn't been too heavy a podcast for you. 608 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:09,460 It's 609 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,100 not at all I think it's it's just amazing how important 610 00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:17,430 knitting has been and how you've also really used it very 611 00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:22,170 deliberately, mindfully, intentionally for like you said, 612 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:26,400 keeping yourself going, saving your life, managing some really 613 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:30,960 difficult times discrimination, bereavement, you know, making 614 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,280 political protest, protest, you know, it's really, but knitting 615 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,670 is all of those things. And like you said, it is, you know, 616 00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,750 exactly, so I think it's really and probably not many of us 617 00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:45,360 think about all of those things that often and I guess that is 618 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,600 part of the podcast is thinking about actually, a lot of 619 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,600 knitters really feel it is very significant to them. So I don't 620 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,370 think you're going to be alone in having, you know, like I 621 00:39:56,370 --> 00:39:58,800 said, bereavement something that's come up very often when 622 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,910 people talk about significant projects. But I think you've 623 00:40:02,940 --> 00:40:06,090 definitely thought about all of these things and the role of 624 00:40:06,090 --> 00:40:09,090 knitting a lot more than most people and articulated those 625 00:40:09,090 --> 00:40:09,510 thoughts. 626 00:40:10,170 --> 00:40:14,280 I've got on my knitmcintosh.com website, I've got a little bot. 627 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,330 So when I'm not there, you know, you can type in questions and 628 00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:22,050 the bot will give you answers that are pre programmed in. 629 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,030 Yeah. And a lot of people use it. And what we've noticed, when 630 00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:29,700 I get up in the morning, if I'm not there to answer the 631 00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:32,970 questions, I get an email with what people have typed. So I can 632 00:40:32,970 --> 00:40:35,820 get back to them. You know, people tell me their stories, 633 00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:38,760 people tell me about the worry that the can't be with their 634 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,100 husband who's had a heart attack and how they're nothing's kept 635 00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:45,990 on going. And there's something viral happening privately viral, 636 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,250 that by me being able to tell my story, other people are telling 637 00:40:50,250 --> 00:40:54,990 there's that people are finding freedom, and they're nothing and 638 00:40:54,990 --> 00:41:00,030 talking about it. And this is all good. This is wonderful 639 00:41:00,030 --> 00:41:04,740 therapy. This is then I am here, and then they can wear it. They 640 00:41:04,740 --> 00:41:09,840 can wear their story, in bright colours and be proud of it. And 641 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:10,800 rightly so. 642 00:41:11,070 --> 00:41:13,920 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I think it's something certainly from my 643 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,990 conversation with Betsan Corkhill, who 644 00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:18,630 James McIntosh: Oh Betsan is wonderful, she helped me start 645 00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:19,260 my journey. 646 00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:22,800 Mia Hobbs: And she talks a lot about therapeutic knitting. And 647 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,550 the way she started was by discovering this filing cabinet 648 00:41:26,610 --> 00:41:29,370 at a Knitting magazine or crafting magazine that where 649 00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:33,390 they had all of these letters from people who'd, who were 650 00:41:33,390 --> 00:41:37,170 writing about the significance of their story with knitting, 651 00:41:37,230 --> 00:41:41,430 and it was a filing cabinet that she discovered and turned into, 652 00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:45,960 you know, the catalyst for the rest of her career, really. But 653 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,260 now, I guess it's happening more online, so other people can 654 00:41:49,260 --> 00:41:52,260 share and interact with those stories more, I think, whereas 655 00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:55,590 previously when they sat in a physical filing cabinet, maybe 656 00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:56,760 that was more difficult. 657 00:41:58,250 --> 00:42:01,070 James McIntosh: What I love most about Betson was how She 658 00:42:01,070 --> 00:42:04,280 struggled to get research published on knitting So she 659 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,670 changed it quite sensibly to instead of calling it knitting 660 00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:10,970 into a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention. Of 661 00:42:10,970 --> 00:42:13,850 course, everybody wants to fund a bilateral rhythmic 662 00:42:13,850 --> 00:42:16,940 psychosocial intervention and give it money, you know, well 663 00:42:16,940 --> 00:42:18,920 done, you Betsan. 664 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,200 Mia Hobbs: James I always ask about knitting high and low, 665 00:42:21,380 --> 00:42:25,670 they can be deep and meaningful or entirely frivolous, whatever 666 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,380 comes to mind for you. 667 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,850 James McIntosh: I think you've dealt with the lows. I think 668 00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:37,280 I've told you about the love. That's the highs. Yeah. And I 669 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,250 don't know, I think I've covered that well. I have knit all over 670 00:42:40,250 --> 00:42:45,440 the world. Oh, knitting high lying in the Dead Sea. Which was 671 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,070 the day after Thomas's mum died. And I was lying in the Dead Sea. 672 00:42:49,070 --> 00:42:49,220 Knitting 673 00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:52,970 Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Wow. And how did you keep it dry? 674 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:53,990 James McIntosh: I put it on my tummy. 675 00:42:55,790 --> 00:42:57,410 Mia Hobbs: And you were that boyant? 676 00:42:57,410 --> 00:42:59,540 James McIntosh: ,you're only going up to your knees and walk 677 00:42:59,540 --> 00:43:03,500 in backwards. And you just sit down? Yeah. And it throws you 678 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,600 over. So my whole tummy was dry, 679 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:09,020 Mia Hobbs: and you were knitting there? Yeah, extraordinary. 680 00:43:09,170 --> 00:43:11,870 Yeah, definitely sounds like a knitting like a once in a 681 00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:12,380 lifetime. 682 00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:16,050 James McIntosh: No it makes me sound like I'm weird. And I need 683 00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:17,700 to go back to the Maudsley for more. 684 00:43:18,030 --> 00:43:20,640 Mia Hobbs: Sounds like you're very dedicated knitter just 685 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:26,010 depends on what spin you put on it James. Indeed, do you find it 686 00:43:26,010 --> 00:43:28,860 and you end up striking up conversations with random people 687 00:43:28,890 --> 00:43:30,330 because they see you knitting? 688 00:43:30,690 --> 00:43:35,040 James McIntosh: The most Random? Honestly, I mean, who else knits 689 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,030 in a night club, I mean there was a very famous gay nightclub 690 00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:43,170 back in the 90s. called Heaven. Yeah, it's still going well, 691 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,210 there was a certain sound of music in the 90s naughties in 692 00:43:48,210 --> 00:43:51,270 Heaven. And they were doing a tribute to it at the Royal 693 00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:55,380 Vauxhall Tavern one night, but I had a photography sample to do 694 00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:58,020 and I haven't heard this music in years. And I really wanted 695 00:43:58,020 --> 00:44:02,700 to go out and just be it. You know? 20 something again? Yeah. 696 00:44:02,730 --> 00:44:08,910 So I was clubbing doing my knitting I think to get it 697 00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:11,220 finished, and do you know what it worked. 698 00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:14,220 Mia Hobbs: Are there any places where you feel like the knitting 699 00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:17,250 has helped you? I don't know feel okay in a place. I don't 700 00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:21,540 own a doctor's waiting room or that it's helped. I don't know 701 00:44:21,540 --> 00:44:23,400 whether it helped him that night bus whether you felt 702 00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:27,090 James McIntosh: my biggest phobia is injection needles. is 703 00:44:27,090 --> 00:44:30,660 cruel phobia to have. It's awful. Getting COVID Jobs was 704 00:44:30,660 --> 00:44:36,540 not easy. was not easy. I had to get quite a bit of diazepam from 705 00:44:36,540 --> 00:44:40,620 a doctor. It was it was not Thomas, by the way. It was not 706 00:44:40,890 --> 00:44:47,910 easy. During my depression, I needed some dental work done. 707 00:44:48,420 --> 00:44:51,690 And I couldn't but Christine who goes to my knitting group. She's 708 00:44:51,690 --> 00:44:56,460 a dentist, okay. And I sit in her chair knitting. While she 709 00:44:56,460 --> 00:45:00,360 does my dental injections and that's how we do it. Wow. 710 00:45:00,450 --> 00:45:02,400 Mia Hobbs: And that helped enough to get you to manage it 711 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,180 James McIntosh: i still scream like a two year old. So you're 712 00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:09,740 killing me, but it just didn't do it. He just, I can do it. 713 00:45:09,830 --> 00:45:14,180 Yeah, I don't like it, but I can do. And I do have a shake after 714 00:45:14,210 --> 00:45:17,060 my body just shakes after having injection, but I can still get 715 00:45:17,060 --> 00:45:20,270 it done. Yeah. And everybody's got something like this. 716 00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:27,740 Everybody. I was scared about giving up smoking. The thought 717 00:45:27,740 --> 00:45:31,790 of being not being a nonsmoker. But the thought about giving up 718 00:45:31,820 --> 00:45:35,090 something that I'd done habitually for 20 odd years. 719 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:41,330 Yeah, it did scare me. But knitting just. A stitch is a 720 00:45:41,330 --> 00:45:46,760 breath stitch, A stitch is tangible. So I am and if I can 721 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,430 make this stitch, I can do whatever I need to do. 722 00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:50,870 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing 723 00:45:51,230 --> 00:45:52,820 James McIntosh: that answer your question does? 724 00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:58,220 Mia Hobbs: And it feels kind of, I don't know whether it's 725 00:45:58,220 --> 00:46:01,790 slightly frivolous to ask this question when you've offered so 726 00:46:01,790 --> 00:46:05,180 much. But I always end with asking the greatest gift that 727 00:46:05,180 --> 00:46:07,430 knitting has given you for the rest of your life. And I guess 728 00:46:07,430 --> 00:46:09,830 for you, maybe it's difficult to pin down because it's 729 00:46:09,860 --> 00:46:13,760 James McIntosh: Oh, no. That's easy. My greatest gift through 730 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,890 knitting? Yeah, is a song that the late and very great Whitney 731 00:46:18,890 --> 00:46:23,720 Houston sang. And that is once I have learned to love myself, it 732 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:27,710 is the greatest gift of all. And when I've got that no one, no 733 00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:32,210 matter how hard they try, with homophobia with whatever, they 734 00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:36,770 cannot take away my dignity, because through knitting, I have 735 00:46:36,770 --> 00:46:37,820 found me. 736 00:46:39,690 --> 00:46:42,840 Mia Hobbs: And that's the ultimate. It is. Yeah, the key 737 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,070 to all of the other things. 738 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,630 James McIntosh: I have peace in myself. You know, and that's, 739 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,770 that's not an easy thing to find. No. But I've done that 740 00:46:52,770 --> 00:46:53,340 through knitting. 741 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,370 Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. 742 00:46:56,820 --> 00:46:58,200 James McIntosh: Thank you for having me. 743 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:02,980 It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And can you just 744 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,320 let us know? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of people who 745 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,700 want to find out about your yarn and your books, and 746 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:10,660 my knititation 747 00:47:10,810 --> 00:47:14,680 Exactly. So just tell people what are the best ways to get in 748 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,420 touch or to find out what you're up to? 749 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,220 would just come and see me online at knitmcintosh.com. 750 00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:30,010 That's knit K.N.I.T. mcintosh.com. At KnitMcIntosh on 751 00:47:30,010 --> 00:47:33,550 all the socials. Come and see me drop me an email. I normally say 752 00:47:33,550 --> 00:47:34,930 Hello, nice and friendly. 753 00:47:35,050 --> 00:47:36,460 Mia Hobbs: Thank you so much, James. 754 00:47:36,490 --> 00:47:37,570 James McIntosh: Pleasure. Thank you, Mia. 755 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,900 Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit 756 00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:43,450 podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic 757 00:47:43,450 --> 00:47:45,400 knitting you can follow me on Instagram 758 00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:48,700 @knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website 759 00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:52,750 therapeuticknitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is 760 00:47:52,750 --> 00:47:55,480 released. Please subscribe on your podcast app.