Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental
health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to James
McIntosh, the owner and founder of Macintosh yarn, and also the
author of Knit and Nibble. You can find a link to James's
website and any of the patterns in yarns we discussed in the
show notes alongside more information on mindfulness and
the evidence base for it. Please note that during our
conversation, we talk about depression, homophobia and
bereavement, but also lots about knitting
them Hi, James, welcome to the podcast.
James McIntosh: Thank you. It's good to see you. How are you?
Mia Hobbs: I'm good. Thanks. How are you doing?
James McIntosh: I'm busy on a sleeve at the minute doing a
good, lovely raglan jumper trying to trying to recover from
second sleeve syndrome. Have you ever had it?
Mia Hobbs: I have. I've definitely had second sock
syndrome, I would say more than second sleeve, I do tend to knit
top down raglans. And then you've got it's all attached.
And I feel like it's easier to see. I just need to do it. But
second, socks, definitely.
James McIntosh: I'm doing a bottom up jumper. And really
nice bright one. Because I just want more colour in my life at
the moment. Yeah, what I've always find is with we second
sleeve is a problem. So I've come up with a new idea. And I
think it's quite clever. So do the ribbing on the cuff on one
and then on the other, right. And then there's two sets of
increases as you go so do the first set on one sleeve. And
then the second, the first one on the other one and then the
second and then knit to so many centimetres and one and the same
to the other. And then, you know, take off your four
stitches and each row and then move up to the first decrease.
And then that's how I'm doing that. So I'm doing
Mia Hobbs: so like kind of two at a time.
James McIntosh: Two at a time tango
Mia Hobbs: That sounds very clever. So you beat the the
second sleeve syndrome. So you'd have to do the same thing over
again. Also, I'm not great at remembering. I know in theory,
I'm following a pattern but making sure the increases are
exactly the same on the second one. I'm not sure that always
happens.
James McIntosh: That's because you write them out. Right? Yeah.
Row numbers and I put plus two or minus two next to the row
number and I just stroke them out as I go.
Mia Hobbs: That's definitely sensible. process. I would love
to hear James where your story with knitting began.
James McIntosh: began five years ago. Okay. I would have never
met in my life. I always loved to a handknit jumper. There is
something special about a hand knit jumper.
Mia Hobbs: Even before you started you were an appreciator
of that
James McIntosh: Oh I loved a good jumper. You see, the
problem was I became very famous very young very quickly and won
more world awards than I could arguably mentally cope with at
the time. And I say that no looking back. I'm 43 and a half
at the moment. You see what I've learned is the half is really
important. You know, because I'm not 44 It's not that I'm turning
seven. It's not 44 I, my degree was in home economics and food
marketing. And I worked in the Good Housekeeping Institute and
the Cordon Bleu cookery schools. And then I went freelance and my
first client and oh, we lasted for years together was Aga
cookers. I was worked my way up to being the global ambassador
for Aga. And I launched Aga all over the world, America, across
Europe, Canada, and I was the man that brought Aga to China. I
worked freelance and I also presented Food TV in China. I
was the only Westerner that I think has ever done it. I used
to get 100 million viewers a week on my TV shows. And I mean
the numbers are
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you got even conceive of that kind of numbers
Unknown: 1.8 billion people. Yeah. And I got less than 10% of
them watching my shows. So yeah, yes it wasn't quite Saturday
Kitchen. No. So it was huge. I brought all of the business home
to my native Northern Ireland and from a farm in the middle of
nowhere, but I live in London and Peckham in the posh part, as
we call it. And I brought all the business home. And it was
very clear that because I'm gay, that the business wasn't welcome
in Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland and I have letters from
senior elected Northern Irish officials denying meetings
denying investment and I Oh, it was just awful. And they
publicly shamed me. And they hung me out to dry and they
sullied my name. And one day, I just couldn't function anymore.
I collapsed. And I could not move my leg down the bed for a
few weeks. My head was very dark, it did not make sense. I
did not know what to do. And if I didn't know what to do, I
didn't have the energy to do it. I was diagnosed with what was
called a moderately severe depressive episode, I spent a
full year in bed. There was little I haven't watched on
Netflix in that year, five years ago. Because I couldn't do
anything else. Until I decided, oh, let's try knitting. Well, I
found a pair of chopsticks and a bit of string in the flat.
looked on YouTube. Learnt how to cast on Thomas my other half
came home from work. Thomas is a doctor. We'll chat about him in
a bit. Yeah, I remember wiggling this cast on something or other
at him. I did this today love and he goes brilliant. Let's get
the wool,
Mia Hobbs: so he ran with it. He what? Because yes, he asked me
did why was it knitting? Do you think?
James McIntosh: Because what else can you do in bed when you
stuck home all day? So you see, I
Mia Hobbs: was like you tried other things. And then that was
the one that stuck in
James McIntosh: I was so scared. So anxious, so afraid. And my
head was so black with depression. I couldn't leave my
bed. I couldn't leave the bedroom. It was the it was
overwhelming. Anyway, Tommy got me beige alpaca and the big 12
millimetre needles you know, we bought an Erika Knight book on
men's knits and we knit a jumper and I couldn't read a pattern
really at that point. No. I still have the jumper it's a god
awful thing as I quoted to Knitting magazine once 15 sizes
too big. You look like a Von Trapp child with hand knitted
curtains for your garb. It's horrible.
Mia Hobbs: But it sounds like it served a very significant
purpose.
James McIntosh: Oh, yes. It's at the back of my wardrobe. But it
allowed me to love myself again. I when I first put that awful
thing on a creation that I had made. Even though it was beige,
I looked in the mirror and I thought I made this I am worth
something that I made for me. And you know, that beige allowed
me to start to get a wee glimpse of colour back into my world. I
was going to the Maudsley hospital every Thursday, I never
really expected to be an outpatient of the Maudsley
hospital. But you know, it was brilliant. They put me on a year
of psychodynamic psychotherapy. Why did these words need to
ssound so clinically? electrolyzing. You know, like,
yeah, like lobotomy. But it was nothing like that. I mean, if
they've called it self improvement, or something like
that, I would've found it easier to go. But I had a therapist who
was brilliant. She was tough. She was tough. And she helped me
realise that many times in life, I was not wrong. Because I was
different. Because I'm gay, in my native Northern Ireland, that
my thoughts and my feelings were worth something. And that I was
worth something. So I came home one night and what what I really
appreciated about psycho dynamic psychotherapy was, you would do
you hour, I was a Thursday I went, and then you'd have a
whole week to think about what you've done in that hour to come
back and complain next week. And then she would ask you why you
were complaining? And are you were feeling that the key to it
was that week in between? I would do a bit of my knitting at
home. And I realised that as a stitch is tangible, and vital in
a knitted project. So my feelings are tangible to me. And
if that stitch wasn't there, the whole thing would unravel.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's true.
James McIntosh: And it would fall apart. So my thoughts and
my feelings were worth something to me and part of me. And I
joked one night and said this is knititation. Nothing for
fidgeters. I've got this busy brain. It's always busy. It was
always too fast. And I can't sit there do this meditation
malarkey or this mindfulness?
Mia Hobbs: I think you tried to do that had you before?
James McIntosh: Oh, yes, yes. I'll tell you about that in a
second? That doesn't work. But one stitch and then another
allows a sense of calm, it stops me fidgeting. So, I realised if
I knit consciously and mindfully, which means no
television, no radio, consciously feeling my feet on
the floor, my bum in the seat, my back in the chair, the
needles, the wool flowing through my fingers, and accept
those feelings and sensations in my body without judging,
analysing or changing them, or evaluating them, just accept
them. Yeah. That it will not solve the world's problems, but
it will help me solve mine. And that I will be able to cope.
Well I got out of bed, I got my life back. But the bit in the
middle of all of this is Thomas my other half. Thomas is a
senior consultant physician in a large central London teaching
hospital. And he's also a fellow of the Royal College of
Physicians. Thomas's inpatients are geriatrics and his
outpatients are related to autonomics. That's faint
blackouts and dizzy spells to you and me. Well, Thomas, is
very into his mindfulness. He's the only NHS consultant that we
know of, that has taken mindfulness outside of
psychiatry, and into clinical medicine. And Thomas uses
mindfulness to treat chronic illness and chronic pain. And he
may he may practices mindfulness for three hours a day, every
day. Wow. Yeah, I know. We've just celebrated 10 years
together last week.
Mia Hobbs: Congratulations.
James McIntosh: Thank you It is an achievement. Yeah. So Thomas,
for every night and morning, I have watched him do an hour of
mindfulness before bed, when he wakens up and an hour at
lunchtime. And I have seen the fruits of this in his life, in
my life, and in our lives together, but I couldn't do
this. And he would go Oh, James you have to do this we tried the
mindful movements. You know, we do the lower cobra on the floor.
And yeah, I wasn't having any of this it didn't work for me. As
we say in Northern Ireland. It did not float my boat. Yeah. The
knitting. malarkey works for me. Hmm. And knitting as a form of
mindfulness, not as a distraction technique works.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And how did you guys was that a combination of
the two of you like was that Thomas adding his mindfulness
slant? It sounds like when you're doing it like that, it is
a very specific way of doing knitting. It's not about you
know how most people do knitting watching TV or, you know, it is
a very, much a mindfulness method of knitting. It's very
specific.
James McIntosh: Yeah, I mean, I get out of bed in the morning.
Yeah, I make myself a cuppa. And I sit in my office and just do
hours knitting. Okay? And that's
Mia Hobbs: doing it mindfully, like, Thomas, does this
meditation?
James McIntosh: Yeah, you know, then I watch the news after
that. And, you know, the news is on a loop at that time in the
morning, so you're not gonna miss much. And if you what I
learned was if I set my mind correctly at the start of the
day, the rest of the day flows. Now, what's really interesting
about my story, is there is no evidence that's been peer
reviewed, or anecdotal that we have found that shows how
knitting or mindfulness can get you out of depression. Right.
There is evidence to suggest that mindfulness based stress
reduction MBSR Yeah. Will delay will reduce the statistics of
someone who's had moderately severe and severe depression
from suffering again, right. Okay. What this has done for me
is it got me better. This is my story. We cannot say this
medically. But this is my testimony and my story, and I am
alive and I am well and I am healthy because of knititation.
I lost my business over what happened. I've been able to
start a business. It's doing brilliant. Yeah, I mean,
McIntosh Wool, I hand dye all the wool myself. It's pure,
beautiful British wool. I do. Deramores, Do you know Deramores
the wool retailer, well they've just started to stock me, and
we're doing a whole campaign about living life with more
colour, but how to have more colour in your life, this colour
is like colours health colour is healing, the more colour I can
surround myself with, hmm, the better because it helps me stay
alive.
Mia Hobbs: So that's another therapeutic part of the knitting
process surrounding yourself. Yeah, I mean, I certainly have
times when I'm like, I need to knit with pink and yellow.
Because that's what I want to be around you just about you have a
long relationship with a knitting project when it's a big
garment. Don't you like it its in your hands, in your life?
James McIntosh: You see, you may have the luxury of that. I
don't. I have to be fast? Yeah. Do you know how many tension
squares I have to knit for the shop or retailer to see it.
Anytime a new fibre comes to me, I need to play with it. So I I'm
doing a sleeve a day at the moment. So that is quite I know.
so yes, I have my meditation, my mindful knitting first thing in
the morning. And then I do a lot of reading on the computer while
I am speed knitting to get garments for photography. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: And has your relationship with knitting
changed now that it's I don't know, when the yarn brand
started. How long ago was that?
James McIntosh: You see what happened was I got better. And
then Thomas and I decided to go on holiday. And we we went we
decided to go to pride in Tel Aviv. Okay, the plane landed in
Tel Aviv. We can go on the phone and Thomas's mum had dropped
dead.
Mia Hobbs: Oh, no, I'm sorry to hear that.
James McIntosh: Well, Thomas is German. What do we do? Stay
here, go back to London go to Germany. We did not know what to
do. She died at home. The police took six weeks in Germany just
to make sure all was okay. And it was just awful. We went to
Jerusalem. It was a beautiful city to go to when you're in
that sort of situation. We have the funeral in Germany. And the
day after my mum was diagnosed with late term ovarian cancer.
Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm so sorry.
James McIntosh: Nine months to the day. The Thomas's mother
passed mine did and it was the first week of lockdown. There
were no flights from London to Belfast. I held my knitting
tighter. I was the only one I remember in Heathrow terminal
five that day. When I got home, my mom who was 71 looked 95.
There was no morphine available. My mother screamed for hours in
my arms, because the health system in Northern Ireland had
collapsed.
Mia Hobbs: So sorry,
James McIntosh: We were not allowed a funeral. We were not
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So you really have kind of kept yourself going
allowed neighbours. We were not allowed family. We were not
allowed support. We were on our own. And my knitting stayed in
my hands. And that stitch was a breath and the next one was a
with the knitting through all of that trauma.
scream of pain and the next was a loving memory. And if it w
sn't for that knitting, but I have not been depressed since
managed to get through this hor endous tsunami. I did not get de
James McIntosh: I mean, the best credit, a lot of it was there
ressed again. I then managed to ive up smoking by stopping by k
itting. I'd smoked for 23 ye rs. 20 a day. I am six month
and two weeks smoke and nicot ne free. Do I see the health
enefits? Yeah, don't cough on t e pillow every morning. And th
t wee bit on my finger's not y llow anymore. There's mor
to this knitting malarkey than meets the eye. So when I st
rt my business, I started Macint sh Wool two years ago, but I h
d to take a year out because f Mum. Oh sure. Yeah. And
ou know, it's a blessing. And we just want to spread the
good news about knitting. And e, human and tell people it's
okay to cry. It's okay to bre k down. Just hold something in
our two hands and make a s itch because that s
was somebody in the Olympics, who decided to do my marketing
for me. I wasn't the only wee boy knitting You know, there was
another one. I just stopped back and I just thought he'd gone.
But I've never seen items as fast in my life as what was
coming off a certain Instagram profile. Hey, yeah.
Mia Hobbs: So yes, Tom Daley was doing the marketing for you. Did
you like I did get hundreds of your friends who don't have
nothing to do with knitting sending you. Have you seen this
at the olympics?
James McIntosh: you seen this? Have you seen this? Yes. Yes,
just because he looks better than me with his top off is not
my problem
Mia Hobbs: the rest of us just don't do it in speedos.
James McIntosh: So no knitting has saved my life. Well, I would
have committed suicide by now without it. Men don't talk men
can't talk. And I was watching a lot of the parliamentary Select
Committee yesterday. About Yorkshire cricket. Oh, yes. And
I was very interested to hear the guy who was racially abused.
He said, for a lot of my life. I went along with things they
said, because they told me it wasn't racist. And I know that
from homophobia in Northern Ireland. It was okay, all my
life for people to call me a poof or a fruit. And I had to
accept that was okay. And it's only now that we are getting the
freedom to say I am worth something. Don't call me that.
Knitting has given me the strength for that.
Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's amazing.
James McIntosh: Oh, we'll get great jumpers too.
Mia Hobbs: But you know, the other stuff, you know, and I
think it can take some time to go back over all those memories
and think actually, that wasn't okay. Yeah.
James McIntosh: I don't like doing moss stitch because
there's too much back and forwards. And I use that as
anger management.
Mia Hobbs: And, I mean, does does the type of knitting make a
difference to you? Do you? Does it matter whether it's like you
said moss stitch or stockinette or a pattern or colour work or,
or not particularly?
James McIntosh: It depends what I do I There is not enough in
the market for men. It is really hard to get a nice pattern for a
bloke you know, the market, it's barren for it. I wrote a book on
it, Knit and Nibble, but apart from that, there's not much. Um,
Mia Hobbs: there was a men's Knitting magazine for a while. I
don't know if it's still around.
James McIntosh: Rib. No it's gone.
Mia Hobbs: Oh, has it?
James McIntosh: You know, then we had I tried to stick to
blokes and gender neutral. I will expand into other things
but I'm a small company, you know, and I'm only just starting
to get knitting patterns together now for my brand. Yeah,
I can't stand intarsia I just can't those bobbins get all
messed up. I just don't want that in my life. Yeah. Other
people seem to like it. Yeah, do love a good bit of fairisle. I
mean, a multicoloured stranded yoke can just bring so much joy,
it can tell a story. And you can knit your mood in it. You know,
your pattern repeats. I hate doing the mathematics for
knitting. But Thomas does that. For me. He's great with a
calculator, and he enjoys that
Mia Hobbs: for patterns do you mean for developing patterns.
Yeah, yeah. Right, like calculating yards and that kind
of thing.
James McIntosh: I mean, if he can do morphine doses and stuff
that's important in hospital in his head and he can, he can do
shaping of garments as well. I just don't enjoy that bit.
Mia Hobbs: Does he knit?
James McIntosh: No, I've banned him from knitting.
Mia Hobbs: Okay. It's your thing.
James McIntosh: That's my thing. He doesn't have time to be
honest. He does crochet which I'm trying to learn. Okay. Do
you crochet?
Mia Hobbs: Well, I have and I do occasionally. And if I was
making a toy or something 3D, I might choose crochet over
knitting, maybe because I've done a couple because I wanted
the thing to give to somebody or something. And I don't find it
as I don't choose it. anywhere near as often as knitting. I
also think in terms of the physical action, I would get
more kind of RSI type pain. If I did it. And I think I prefer the
fabric of knitting personally.
James McIntosh: I'm trying to learn crochet at the moment. And
if any listeners would like to come I will cook lunch if you'd
show because every online video I've looked on how to do a
granny square the I get lost? No. Okay. I'm not daft I've got
a Master of Arts Degree. Yeah, I can follow things, but they show
you once. And then they go really fast and finish. Oh,
okay. I need to see what the treble is again, please. Slow
down!
Mia Hobbs: I think we, you know, I started knitting before. I
think YouTube was a thing, but I think it is much easier
generally to learn from because I think I learned from a book.
But much easier to learn from seeing somebody and I've had a
couple of people who've asked me to teach them to knit over zoom
and I'm thinking really would be quite challenging. I think it's
better to watch a video produced by somebody who has a proper
camera that's on their hands. For example.
James McIntosh: I For Oh, for three years until lockdown, I
haven't re-started. I ran a knitting group in Peckham. Okay.
Yeah, we get up to 96 came. I mean, it was. Yeah. But
everybody needed to learn to knit. Right? Yeah. So you start
with a tension square. If you can get your tension, you can go
on to a hat. Well, it was 96 drop stitches. Well I gave up,
okay, if I bought everybody a Jager bomb at the bar. 96
dropped stitches.
Mia Hobbs: They were all new knitters, were they? Oh, wow.
That's, I mean, that's a lot. I'm running a therapeutic
knitting group in a primary school. And I've found eight new
knitters, you know, a lot. They are children. So they've
obviously got other, you know, I have to also help them find the
scissors or allow them to go to the toilet and that kind of
thing. But, yeah, I think you do need an element of one to one
support when you're just starting, don't you and then
once you've got the flow of things, I think the other thing
that's challenging over Zoom is sometimes you do just need to
hand your knitting to somebody who knows what on earth has
happened when it's gone wrong. And get them to help you
James McIntosh: we're actually recording this over zoom, as do
you want this sleeve, because theres a dropped stitch you can
see it as you're interviewing.
There's a dropped stitch is there? No
Of course there is, I'll fix it up later at the end. It's for
photography. No you do. And th re is something caring about
eaching someone to knits, you k ow, there is I am inter
sted in your well being let m work with you. It's about a fri
ndliness. It's you can talk bout things that are perso
al. And talk about things that re deep. You can talk about
life love, and you know, wash n cold water, dry flat and ri
se and repeat. Yeah, life is tho e stitches.
Mia Hobbs: Do you feel like people talk more in a knitting
group kind of environment? Because I suppose I wonder
whether the lack of kind of intense eye contact and people
kind of talk as they work on something. And sometimes that
makes people more likely to share something because they're
busy with their hands.
James McIntosh: One lady came to knitting group one night, her
husband died that morning. She just wanted to be at her
knitting group. Yeah, because she knew she could talk. And
what an honour an honour it is. To start something with somebody
will tell you that. I just gave her the biggest hug.
Mia Hobbs: I've found you know, it's a way of giving someone
comforts it's really hard, isn't it when someone's been through a
bereavement from the outside to know what.
James McIntosh: tell me about it from the inside.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, exactly. And that's a whole nother story. But
even from the outside thinking, how can I be helpful to this
person, but I guess sitting alongside them and knitting
without,
James McIntosh: at a time, one stitch at a time. It's not a
race unless you own the wool company
Mia Hobbs: And has that changed how you feel about the knitting.
James. I'm wondering.
James McIntosh: I have my knitting. Yeah, and I have my
work knitting
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so that's separate.
James McIntosh: Yeah. Work is about coloured blocks and stitch
patterns. My knitting is about a jumper for me. Yeah. No. As we
talk, I've sent some stuff out to designers. And I'm absolutely
shocked that a two skein shawl has been knit in three days. And
when we come off this interview, I'm going to have a look to see
what it is because I've been sent a picture of it. They can't
wait. I don't know how Brian Smith Designs has knit that
fast.
Mia Hobbs: Wow. That's very fast.
James McIntosh: I know.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Is knitting ever unhelpful for your mental
health?
James McIntosh: No, no, no, because, you know, his best bet
is if you get really peeved off with a pattern, yeah, you just
put it in the bag. I've got 72 of them. My PhDs my project half
dones. Oh, I haven't found it. I have knit everywhere. I mean,
everywhere. Around the world, knitting. There is no problem
getting needles on a plane. I have.
Mia Hobbs: I used to worry a lot about that though. I did bring a
crochet hook once because I was thinking well, they're not
surely they're not going to take that off me.
James McIntosh: I just cry at security. Don't take my needles
away. And I've knit in nightclubs I used to knit in the
Royal Vauxhall Tavern and discos to get things finished. i Oh,
the night bus used to be really good the N63 night bus in
London. Yeah, I've knit everywhere. Do you know you only
ever get a smile and you are just sending love from your
knitting needle to somebody else? And there was one night
and these blokes got on the N63 Night bus Thomas and I were
coming home from a Night Club and let's just say they looked
like they were well oiled gentlemen with alcohol. Yeah.
And he was a big bruiser. And there was a fight about to
start. And he looks at me and he goes, my granny used to do that,
can I feel your balls? I said, Excuse me. I said, my Merino. He
calmed down, he sat beside me. And he said, that wool just
feels like what my granny used to knit for me. And she was
really, kind to me.
Mia Hobbs: That's amazing.
James McIntosh: I was about to die.
Mia Hobbs: It diffused everything
James McIntosh: Do you know what knitting makes you smile, it
gives people hope. And I think specially, during and after the
pandemic, especially with the climate crisis. You know, we
need to look at our fibres carefully now, I know not
everybody can afford new wool. But we need to consider manmade
fibres carefully. We need to consider what the petrochemical
industry makes, we need to consider making yarns out of
kerosene. And we need to be careful about this. Because the
fossil fuel it takes to make them and they don't biodegrade.
And we need to look at this and it is I don't have an answer.
Yeah. I know the price of hand dyed pure British wool, yeah,
not everybody can afford that.
Mia Hobbs: Yes, it's expensive.
James McIntosh: It is. And I'm not yarn shaming. I'm looking at
a debate. There's also a medical research paper that's out you
can it's very easy to Google and it shows where there is acrylic
fibre in human lung tissue, okay. Right. This is this is
serious, you know. But we have to look at this sensibly, we
have to look at microplastics but all this will start to
happen. You know, COP26, I must say to get as far as they did
with so many nations and so many cultures and so much invested
financial interest for countries. I was impressed
knitting, for me is mental health, but knitting is life. It
is family, it is society, it is environment. It is industry, it
is economics, it is farming, it is food production. It is it is
politics. Knitting is not just one thing.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, you can make, I don't know demonstrate your
values, I suppose. And make choices about your politics by
what yarn you choose and what fibres you're using and
James McIntosh: what Pussy hat you wear. And that I am proud of
you know, the pussy hat whenever Trump was a little bit crude
with his as he called locker room talk. unexcusable
ignorance.
Mia Hobbs: Do you want to just explain for people who don't
know about that? Because it was a few years ago now, isn't it
when Trump was elected
James McIntosh: When Trump was elected He said the most
disgusting thing about females about why he wanted to grab
them. And he excused it by saying it was a locker room
talk. Well, I'm sorry. That was degrading, misogynistic, and
just, quite frankly, disgusting. So the ladies in America decided
right can, we do best knitting. But they do other things better.
So what they were doing was actually playing to the
stereotype and just saying, don't mess with us. So they
developed what was termed the pussy hat is what we would know
Shapeways as a tea bag hat. So a large rectangle folded over and
it was in pink. And they used a yarn originally from a wonderful
company I know very well in South America called Malabrigo.
And they developed this and they wore it in their 1000s to the
rallies to protest against Trump. And if something so
innocent as knitting can make a colourful sea of statement
across the world, what hope is there for us in those stitches
and how blessed are we to knit those stitches?
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really is knitted politics.
James McIntosh: It's knitted life is visibility to the to the
invisible in society. It is saying I am here. This is my
statement, and you will see me I will knit because I am worth
something like those knitted stitches are worth something.
Oh, I'm all for knitting. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs: And it's so important and it has been throughout your
life in so many different ways, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And I
always ask on the podcast about a significant project. If you
wouldn't mind telling me it sounds like there's been a lot.
James McIntosh: There was one.
Mia Hobbs: There's one. Okay.
James McIntosh: There was one. I grew up with a lady called
Kerry. And she she married a friend of ours called Dean on
the farm next door. And when mum died, she came with a casserole.
And she jumped out of the car and said James. I know there's
COVID I am giving you a hug, because you need one. Kerry came
to see me every day. And it was lockdown. And I wanted to say
thank you when I got back to London, and I knit a blanket.
it was known as a Hue Afghan Shift blanket. Okay, I can't
remember who designed it. I can look it up on Ravelry. Okay. And
it was mitre squares that joined together, it was huge. And it
made a cross in the middle and an just a display of colour from
top to bottom corner to corner is gorgeous. And I knit it for
Kerry one stitch at a time. It was all done in garter stitch.
So I could put my grief and my tears into that without having
to think Yeah. And as this grew, and as the colours grew, I
realised that the end there was a beautiful yellow cross in the
middle of it. And then this was my grief blanket, I called it
and you know what? The most important bit of that blanket
was giving it away. And I gave it to Kerry. And I was just
like, I had to give my mum away. My tears and the pain and my
feeling and my anger and my happiness and my sad and my
worry and My strength. And every fibre of what I was struggling
with, I put into that blanket.
Mia Hobbs: And that's amazing actually James the bit about
giving it away because I've heard a few other people talk
about significant projects and getting them through
bereavements.
James McIntosh: Yeah, you have to give it away, and then it's,
Mia Hobbs: but I haven't heard anyone else who's given it away.
And that's really interesting that you know, the parallel with
having to give your mum away
James McIntosh: Grief has to be shared. Grief has to be shared
because there were many people who loved my mum. I mean, mum,
mum was a home economics teacher. She was a farmer's
wife. She ran the ladies group in church, she ran the, the
infants and babies and toddlers group in church and mum was the
community. And we were not allowed a funeral. Do you know
what that was? Like? We were allowed 10 minutes in the
garden. So I had to do something for Kerry, who loved my mum too
who I had to do something to make this all, it will never be
okay. Yeah, but I had to set Mum free in my heart. Yeah. And I
did it. And I gave it away because the metaphor of if you
really love someone, you set them free is not about love and
two teenagers falling out when they're going out. It's about
losing, deeply losing. But you know, my mum's still with me I
chat to her every day. We talk about the stitches.
Mia Hobbs: Was she a knitter?
James McIntosh: Oh, yes. Okay.Oh, yeah. Oh, mum, knitting
and crocheting crafts. And our mum was stunning at it and
embroidery. And yeah.
Mia Hobbs: Do you think maybe that planted a seed for you?
Like maybe that was why your brain went to that place when
you were needing something you could do in your bed?
James McIntosh: Oh, no. Mum said to me quite clearly. Boys don't
do that. It's okay. So mum came over in the middle of my
depression and brought her to John Lewis. And that's how it
all started really. So yeah. Mum Mum helped me a lot with it. And
for Knit and Nibble. Mum did some of the some of the jumpers
for me, but
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so you did knit together later on?
James McIntosh: Well, she did it in Northern Ireland. I did it
here, pray the Lord for FaceTime. And yeah, away we go.
Yeah. So yeah. This hasn't been too heavy a podcast for you.
It's
not at all I think it's it's just amazing how important
knitting has been and how you've also really used it very
deliberately, mindfully, intentionally for like you said,
keeping yourself going, saving your life, managing some really
difficult times discrimination, bereavement, you know, making
political protest, protest, you know, it's really, but knitting
is all of those things. And like you said, it is, you know,
exactly, so I think it's really and probably not many of us
think about all of those things that often and I guess that is
part of the podcast is thinking about actually, a lot of
knitters really feel it is very significant to them. So I don't
think you're going to be alone in having, you know, like I
said, bereavement something that's come up very often when
people talk about significant projects. But I think you've
definitely thought about all of these things and the role of
knitting a lot more than most people and articulated those
thoughts.
I've got on my knitmcintosh.com website, I've got a little bot.
So when I'm not there, you know, you can type in questions and
the bot will give you answers that are pre programmed in.
Yeah. And a lot of people use it. And what we've noticed, when
I get up in the morning, if I'm not there to answer the
questions, I get an email with what people have typed. So I can
get back to them. You know, people tell me their stories,
people tell me about the worry that the can't be with their
husband who's had a heart attack and how they're nothing's kept
on going. And there's something viral happening privately viral,
that by me being able to tell my story, other people are telling
there's that people are finding freedom, and they're nothing and
talking about it. And this is all good. This is wonderful
therapy. This is then I am here, and then they can wear it. They
can wear their story, in bright colours and be proud of it. And
rightly so.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I think it's something certainly from my
conversation with Betsan Corkhill, who
James McIntosh: Oh Betsan is wonderful, she helped me start
my journey.
Mia Hobbs: And she talks a lot about therapeutic knitting. And
the way she started was by discovering this filing cabinet
at a Knitting magazine or crafting magazine that where
they had all of these letters from people who'd, who were
writing about the significance of their story with knitting,
and it was a filing cabinet that she discovered and turned into,
you know, the catalyst for the rest of her career, really. But
now, I guess it's happening more online, so other people can
share and interact with those stories more, I think, whereas
previously when they sat in a physical filing cabinet, maybe
that was more difficult.
James McIntosh: What I love most about Betson was how She
struggled to get research published on knitting So she
changed it quite sensibly to instead of calling it knitting
into a bilateral rhythmic psychosocial intervention. Of
course, everybody wants to fund a bilateral rhythmic
psychosocial intervention and give it money, you know, well
done, you Betsan.
Mia Hobbs: James I always ask about knitting high and low,
they can be deep and meaningful or entirely frivolous, whatever
comes to mind for you.
James McIntosh: I think you've dealt with the lows. I think
I've told you about the love. That's the highs. Yeah. And I
don't know, I think I've covered that well. I have knit all over
the world. Oh, knitting high lying in the Dead Sea. Which was
the day after Thomas's mum died. And I was lying in the Dead Sea.
Knitting
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Wow. And how did you keep it dry?
James McIntosh: I put it on my tummy.
Mia Hobbs: And you were that boyant?
James McIntosh: ,you're only going up to your knees and walk
in backwards. And you just sit down? Yeah. And it throws you
over. So my whole tummy was dry,
Mia Hobbs: and you were knitting there? Yeah, extraordinary.
Yeah, definitely sounds like a knitting like a once in a
lifetime.
James McIntosh: No it makes me sound like I'm weird. And I need
to go back to the Maudsley for more.
Mia Hobbs: Sounds like you're very dedicated knitter just
depends on what spin you put on it James. Indeed, do you find it
and you end up striking up conversations with random people
because they see you knitting?
James McIntosh: The most Random? Honestly, I mean, who else knits
in a night club, I mean there was a very famous gay nightclub
back in the 90s. called Heaven. Yeah, it's still going well,
there was a certain sound of music in the 90s naughties in
Heaven. And they were doing a tribute to it at the Royal
Vauxhall Tavern one night, but I had a photography sample to do
and I haven't heard this music in years. And I really wanted
to go out and just be it. You know? 20 something again? Yeah.
So I was clubbing doing my knitting I think to get it
finished, and do you know what it worked.
Mia Hobbs: Are there any places where you feel like the knitting
has helped you? I don't know feel okay in a place. I don't
own a doctor's waiting room or that it's helped. I don't know
whether it helped him that night bus whether you felt
James McIntosh: my biggest phobia is injection needles. is
cruel phobia to have. It's awful. Getting COVID Jobs was
not easy. was not easy. I had to get quite a bit of diazepam from
a doctor. It was it was not Thomas, by the way. It was not
easy. During my depression, I needed some dental work done.
And I couldn't but Christine who goes to my knitting group. She's
a dentist, okay. And I sit in her chair knitting. While she
does my dental injections and that's how we do it. Wow.
Mia Hobbs: And that helped enough to get you to manage it
James McIntosh: i still scream like a two year old. So you're
killing me, but it just didn't do it. He just, I can do it.
Yeah, I don't like it, but I can do. And I do have a shake after
my body just shakes after having injection, but I can still get
it done. Yeah. And everybody's got something like this.
Everybody. I was scared about giving up smoking. The thought
of being not being a nonsmoker. But the thought about giving up
something that I'd done habitually for 20 odd years.
Yeah, it did scare me. But knitting just. A stitch is a
breath stitch, A stitch is tangible. So I am and if I can
make this stitch, I can do whatever I need to do.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing
James McIntosh: that answer your question does?
Mia Hobbs: And it feels kind of, I don't know whether it's
slightly frivolous to ask this question when you've offered so
much. But I always end with asking the greatest gift that
knitting has given you for the rest of your life. And I guess
for you, maybe it's difficult to pin down because it's
James McIntosh: Oh, no. That's easy. My greatest gift through
knitting? Yeah, is a song that the late and very great Whitney
Houston sang. And that is once I have learned to love myself, it
is the greatest gift of all. And when I've got that no one, no
matter how hard they try, with homophobia with whatever, they
cannot take away my dignity, because through knitting, I have
found me.
Mia Hobbs: And that's the ultimate. It is. Yeah, the key
to all of the other things.
James McIntosh: I have peace in myself. You know, and that's,
that's not an easy thing to find. No. But I've done that
through knitting.
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing.
James McIntosh: Thank you for having me.
It was an absolute pleasure to talk to you. And can you just
let us know? Because I'm sure there'll be lots of people who
want to find out about your yarn and your books, and
my knititation
Exactly. So just tell people what are the best ways to get in
touch or to find out what you're up to?
would just come and see me online at knitmcintosh.com.
That's knit K.N.I.T. mcintosh.com. At KnitMcIntosh on
all the socials. Come and see me drop me an email. I normally say
Hello, nice and friendly.
Mia Hobbs: Thank you so much, James.
James McIntosh: Pleasure. Thank you, Mia.
Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
knitting you can follow me on Instagram
@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website
therapeuticknitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is
released. Please subscribe on your podcast app.