Every daughter is a story waiting to be told. Every mother is a chapter already written. Welcome to the Mother Daughter Relationship Show, where we explore the most complex, beautiful, and sometimes challenging and painful bond between mothers and daughters. I'm your host, Brittany Scott, and each week we'll dive deep into these relationships. From navigating teenage years to building adult friendships. From healing generational wounds to celebrating shared triumphs. We're here to share, learn, and grow together. Join us as we talk with real mothers and daughters, expert therapists and coaches, and thought leaders who help us understand this unique connection that shape who we are. Whether you're a mother seeking to understand, a daughter looking for perspective, or someone who wants to strengthen this precious bond, this is your safe space. Welcome back. It's Brittany. I have another interview for you guys today. And this one is with Chanel Jackson. This is a story on adoption. So I'm really happy to bring this angle of mother daughter relationships and mother wounds to the podcast. And I really hope you guys enjoy it. I think that's enough of an intro. We're going to jump right in

my name is Chanel Jackson. I am a licensed clinical social worker in the DMV area. I am the oldest of four children underneath me, and I enjoy like doing things with my family. I definitely enjoy that. I also enjoy the work that I do. And I'm here to hopefully give more insight into the mother daughter relationship.

I'm so glad that you're here and willing to share your story with me and my listeners. I ask everybody this question, starting out, what was the event that you would say broke your relationship or that just caused you to realize, okay, no, this isn't normal or this is not how a mother daughter relationship should go?

Mine's happened. in my preteen. So I'm adopted by my mother. And when you're a little bit young, the first two years into it, I didn't even notice it. But then that third year when I turned 13, that's when I began to notice that things had shift and things begin to look a little bit different for our relationship.

Okay. How old were you when you were adopted?

I was adopted when I was 12.

What was happening that caused you at 13 to realize, okay, this isn't how this should feel or how this should go?

I began to see that we were in conference. There was a competition going on and only one person was competing, right? Being raised by my biological mother and other foster mothers beyond that, I know what a mother daughter relationship should look like. And one of the things that I never felt like I was in was a competition. And so when I would get up and sing in church, they would get up and sing in church and be trying to out sing me. Or when there was situations of dating, even the conversations around that, or when I think social media in my later teens had became popular or the cell phones had came up and I was just taking pictures of myself and it was just like, Oh, why you keep doing that? You're so conceited, this and the other, like different messages, conversation. And I was just like, this is not how it's supposed to be.

Okay. Trying to tear you down or pull you down.

Yeah. Pull me down and make me unsure of myself because I came from someone who comes from my environment. Or from my circumstances, you would think that would come with low self esteem. I will come unsure of myself, but that's not how I came. I came with a plan. I knew what I wanted to do. I know where I wanted to go. Like I had my schools all lined up. I even told her like, you don't have to do much. All you gotta do here is just make sure that I get to where I need to go. And that you help me get there with the things that you have or the things that the knowledge that you have and the wisdom that you have. So it's like. The unbelievable, like, how can this person have this kind of assurance of themselves, what I consider to be like something of a wounded individual, but not coming across as that, why they're so strong.

Okay. You think she had those thoughts?

I think so. Because there were like questions that were asked while I was growing up or things that were said what happens if. This doesn't happen, or this may not happen, or this may not occur. And I'm just like it's going to, it's going to, and I was very more so because I had been in the role of being the older sibling and then also responsible for younger siblings in the foster system. I came with a dominant personality. So I'm a leader, naturally. This is what I do. This is how I do it. And when, if I set something up to be a certain thing, it's going to happen. Not only that, because I also have a strong relationship with God. So that in itself did not mimic what other children were probably showing, or even what someone my age would actually probably demonstrate because they probably never been in a situation where they had to focus on getting themselves to the next level in order to survive.

Yeah. Okay. So instead of just supporting your goals or your dreams for the future, she was trying to prepare you for the chance of them not happening, not coming to fruition.

Yes. Not happening. I grew to understand why, right? Not only coming into my field, but also understanding how people saw children who came from the system. And so When you put those two together, you come up with what you get, but then it comes to a point where it's like, Oh, how dare she, how is she doing this? And that was constantly not a question of just her, but others that were. Around me, like you came from this particular background. How did you make yourself into this particular person? Or why are you able to accomplish the things that you're accomplishing right now?

Yeah. So believing that because of your background, being in the foster system, that you would pretty much amount to nothing.

That's what I got. That's what I got.

And so then there's this shock and surprise that you have created a life that you want. And a life that you can be proud of.

Yes. And not only that, even the quality of the boys that I attracted, that's when it really began to become extremely hard for me because there was a relationship that the little puppy love, whatever they call it. Sweetheart relationship. And for the life of me, I couldn't put together why this person was being put through so many loops to just date me. And so there was an excuse of Oh, they were immature. They were to this and the other. But there also was this truth that once that relationship ended, there was an introduction of another person. The person did not come from the quality of family that this other person came from. It was actually lower at the level, probably that you would think that I would come in. And so that was nurtured, that was supported, and that wasn't what I wanted. So then that's when it really dawned on me Oh, you don't really think that highly of me, or you don't think that I'm that deserving of something. And. That's where I was really like, I'm gonna have to continue to fight to even just get the love and compassion that I know that I deserve and want in the relationship that I want from the people that I want to be in relationship with.

Yeah. So there was some sabotage there. A lot of sabotage. That she didn't think you either deserved or were deserved, that you weren't deserving of that person.

Yeah, because at first it made it, there was a conversation that made it seem as if this particular person was just so immature, but we were children. We both were immature. We both were immature. This person did have a lot more freedom, but If you look at the person and you really understood the reason why they had that freedom was because of their character and the simple fact that they were able to have some level of self control with other things that they were engaging in. It came a thing of wanting, controlling that person through me. So saying that this person is so Too free. This person has to is going over girls houses and things like that and putting some insecurities in me that I didn't really didn't care about. I knew this person. I trusted this person. I knew this person was not doing, the wild things that this person was saying because of like how the level that this person was on. And now I was mature enough. And experiencing that to know a dog when you see a dog, it was one of those situations. And I found myself trying to please my mother by exhibiting the behaviors that were shown, insecurities, distrust, all the things that I wasn't. And doing that, I think that caused some challenges there. Not so much so that person did not want to continue the relationship, but challenges within me, because this is not who I am. I'm not one of those people who care. I trust you until you tell me that you can't be trust. This is something that I just learned as being a foster youth. And so if there's no evidence that this person is distrusting, then why am I exhibiting this particular behavior? And it became to a point where then I began to see that this was their way of controlling and having a hold over something that eventually I began to realize that they were fearful of losing me to this. Because of the healthiness of it, so that there's a relationship that they wanted to have with me was going to be affected and they couldn't control. If that makes sense.

I'm following what I'm hearing. I want to ask this instead of saying mom or adoptive mom or whatever it is you call her, you're just saying this person. Is that on purpose or is that just part of just telling the story?

Because it's part of telling the story, but it's also on purpose because that person that was then is no longer this person that is now.

Okay.

So it's like me dividing who they were in the past from who they are now because Of how this relationship was shaped and how it grew with our separation with me living in Cali at the time, and then living in a DMV and having to care for another younger sibling. And so at the time, I refer to that person as that person all the time, 'cause it's I don't wanna give nobody permission to tell 'em I call my mother by her first name, either you not gonna people will call their parents by their first name. Even with my doctor, mother, I, I use, my, not my doctor, mother, my biological mother, I use a certain way of describing her where people won't be able to connect her. with her name from the past things that she has done or even give them the feel the ability to feel like they have the right to call them by their first name because it's a level of respect not saying that you would do that or anything anybody else but it's a level of respect because people be like Sharon over there. No. So I don't ever want to give anyone that freedom to feel like they can just, because that person at that moment, they were that person, they were that person that was manipulative, that person that was, that needed control. That person that was projecting their hurt and their harm. That they have experienced in their own childhood on to me in an attempt to make me function in a way that they wanted me to function versus who I actually was. And then they were that person that felt that because I came from a certain background that I couldn't overcome, or I wasn't different from the background that they thought that I came from when the reality of the situation was that the background that I came from was totally different from what people expect. Children who are in the foster system to come from.

Okay, so it sounds like the relationship you have with who she is today does not reflect who she was when you were a child.

It doesn't reflect who she was because I've learned about why she responds and reacts that way.

And so you've adjusted or she's changed?

There's some change. Not enough. Not a lot. Okay. There's some change. But there also is. I don't know if there's an adjustment like in assimilating into this person being this way without correcting the person in regards to the way that they respond to you. I think there is more of an understanding and some empathy there that is getting your

end.

In doing so, I think that knowing history one has been key. She comes from the South where there's a lot of colorism. A lot of trackserism, a lot of other things that probably have taken place when she was young, understanding that. Then there was the understanding of birth order. I'm the oldest, she's the youngest, right? So it's going to function totally differently. And then also understanding that there were things that were thought about and continue to be thought about children in the foster system. And you don't really know how things are going to turn out until you get in that space. And a lot of people, I've realized, a lot of mothers, especially, parent out of fear. If you have fear of losing, first of all, there's the foster youth that you're adopting. You have fear of losing this youth to other individuals where they want, feel like they're more of a family and connected to this other family. That's scary. Then you have, or even their biological family, because that's there too as well, right? And then you have, how can I parent someone that is just this strong and independent? What does that look like? There's no books. There's no classes to tell you how to parent a child who is sure of themselves, who is achieving at a high level. And also already have their life planned out for them, right? There's not even anything in the Bible to there's nothing to talk. There is something in the Bible is Jesus. That's what we're talking about, right? I'm not saying I'm Jesus, but there is Jesus. That's there. But there's nothing that's taught in the church to tell you how to deal or parent children who have this particular type of personality. So you're coming into something with no knowledge, what you really honestly need to do in order to make sure that this person grows into a healthy individual. On top of that, nobody's telling you how to deal with your own stuff. That's going to come up by being a parent. Being a parent is look, sometimes looking at a reflection of yourself or even looking at something that's opposite of yourself and wondering how is that possible or that's possible. You can actually be that type of person. So that's just like one of the things that I had to come to terms with was like, I had to humanize my mother. I had not only had to humanize her, but I had to humanize other mothers before her. Like my biological mother, understanding why it was that we needed to go into the foster system. My other foster parents, one was a Muslim, one was a Baptist person. Understanding their trials and their tribulations and what made them parent the way that they did. Then my adoptive mother, understanding why she parented me the way that she did over these years.

Yeah. When did you come to this level of empathy at what age or around what age or maybe stage of life? Were you able to provide this level of understanding and empathy?

Let me tell you how this happened and people are going to be like, what?

Cause the reason why I asked that is because you talk with a lot of maybe forgiveness and understanding. And so it's like, how did you get there? Because that's a struggle for a lot of women. But also, that's not even a desire of a lot of women who were hurt by mothers. They don't desire to forgive or to even fully understand because they were a child that was hurt.

Yeah. The first apology that I ever got from anybody who ever taken care of me was my mother, my biological mother. Okay. And she told me, she was like, I can't remember what I did. But I know I did something and whatever I did that harmed you, I'm sorry. That's huge. That's huge. And I was probably, I was at my foster mother's house. So I probably was 10 years old at the time when that first apology came through. Yeah. Fast forward, I was in high school. I went to Bishop McNamara. And my teacher, our history teacher at the time, Ms. Keller, was giving a lesson on colorism and racism back in the South and how it was. This is a Caucasian woman that's giving us this lesson. She looks phenomenal though. And I was like, huh, I wonder if this It's something that my mother went through my adoptive mother went through. And I remember I was in the ninth grade at the time and we were going to my therapy session, which was required by the state of DC, that everybody who was in foster system went to therapy. And so I continued on cause my Medicaid had paid for it. So why not? I was in the car taking pictures of myself on my cell phone. Cause I was going to send it to my high school sweetheart at the time. And she said, why are you always taking pictures of yourself? And I said, why are you not? Like, why are you not taking pictures of yourself? And she was just like, she said this to me, she said, you know how you can tell somebody's beautiful versus somebody being just cute? And I said, no. And she said, paper bag near their face. And if you lie in your skin, And they're still beautiful, then they're beautiful. But if you lighten their skin and they're just okay, then they're just pretty. I remember looking at her and saying, What the hell? Like, why would you say that? I'm like, that is crazy. I said, who makes that determination? I said, it's, and I felt so bad on the inside for her because I grew up with a caramel complexion mother who told us My biological mother told us that she don't birth nothing but gold. So there was no reason for us to ever feel that way. Even in growing up in elementary in the DC area and Anacostia, like near Georgia Avenue, I went to those two schools and those areas never have I heard anything in regards to colorism in that way. Plus we were in the black pride. So there was anthems and stuff like there was never that conversation. And I remember going to my therapist and I tell her what happened. And then she asked me how I felt. And I was just like, I don't get it. I don't get it because dark skin I've seen dark babies, like dark, like dark moon, dark, black moon, black hair, the color, moon, dark. Baby that we had in my foster home that came in, that was a foster mother's grandchildren. And when I say beautiful, I always wanted a dark baby just because of that. And so I'm looking at her and cause she's really dark and I'm just like, that must be really hard for you to maneuver this world and not really think that you're beautiful because your skin color is not what people would deem as beautiful. And I remember being so heated, like upset, how dare she say this, because now this is going to be something that may affect me in ways that I don't know, or I want to be affected. And so I carried that for a while, just like wondering, I carried that and that. Allowed me, my clinician at the time, worked with me and allowed me to see how that was her trauma and how her trauma was coming up in our relationship because of the difference of how I saw myself and how she saw herself at her age. Yeah. So with that, I began to, when they say knowing your history is important, that's why it's important because it allows you to understand why people function the way that they do. If you have someone who is being called names because of their color of their skin, and then also not the person that's seen as the prettiest individual because of that and all the things that go on because of where they were raised, of course they want to bring that into their relationship with you. And then I also had to understand the fear. That wasn't talked about in my therapy, my as a therapist, but then as I got older. Probably in my twenties after that relationship, after several relationships had ended and they were like, yo, your mom is wow, I can't do this, but in that particular relationship, I had to realize that she don't know how to write. She don't know my personality. She don't really know me. She really don't know what it's like to be a foster child. She don't know what to expect out of foster children. Everybody's doing this and they're raising me in fear. You're raising me with the fear of losing me. And then there came a point where I was just like let me secure her and let her know that she won't lose me. And in doing that, I gave up a lot of relationships. But then I realized soon after, in doing that, you can't secure nobody and make them feel as if they are, that you're going to be that person that's always going to be there for them. They have to become secure in themselves. And I realized that was a battle that she was fighting was the security within herself. I'm not the security of me. And then I began to have a little bit more empathy as I began to learn about mental health. More, I'm beginning to learn about history in the South or colorism, erasing the more I began to learn about how people deal with trauma. And so I just. came to a point of I'm not going to allow one, I'm not going to allow you to have that kind of control over me. And then two, I can be empathetic to you and also hold you accountable as well. And also, and then three, knowing that apology is not going to come. They don't have to come. I don't need it because I know that facing the truth is a hard thing for a lot of people. It's hard for me to be honest with myself sometimes. And doing that, I really think that in to answer your question, to gain freedom and to gain forgiveness, you have to humanize them. You cannot put them on as. Pedal stool and say that you're supposed to do all these things, but you have to realize that sometimes they just can't and

they don't have the knowledge they don't have the

knowledge

skill.

Yeah, and I talked to people all the time. I was like, how do you expect your mom to love you if she never loved herself or known how to love herself? It's oh, it's her responsibility. Yes. Yes. And that love can come in many different ways. It may not come in the way that you expected, like the hugging and the kissing, cause we see the things on the TV about how a parent is supposed to nurture their child. It may come in other ways. And that's what I had to look for was other ways that my mother loved and cared for me.

Yeah. That's me. That falls into accepting the person in front of you. And I'm learning, as I say that more and say that out loud for people, some hear acceptance and it's like their brain processes allowance. Acceptance doesn't equal allowance. You don't have to allow bad behavior, but depending on your mom, if she has no desire to change, has no desire to apologize, has no desire to take accountability. then acceptance is going to be the way through to healing. This is the person you were given, unfortunately. And that sucks for some peop like for a lot of women.

Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard because we try, people tell you, the world send this message that anybody can change. Yeah. But the reality is that change takes time and it's hard.

Hard work.

So hard. And sometimes that change won't happen with you. That change may happen with the grandchildren.

Yeah. Yes, for sure.

The change may happen in small ways, not big ways, that you probably can fully feel healed or seen from it. And that's what I've taken away from it. It's I'm not going to allow your trauma and stuff to affect me because that's your trauma. But what I am going to do Is love and care for you the way I see fit that is going to not be in a way that's going to harm me or cause harm to me. So

healthy and strong boundaries.

Yeah, very strong boundaries. And then also opening space for mistakes to be made. Right? And then reinforcing once the mistakes have been made and acknowledging that mistakes have been made and not just brushing them under the rug and acting as if they don't exist.

So not allowing. Is this hard for you? Because I feel like this is also a lot of work on your end. Girl, it's hard! You have this high level of understanding, but you are the one walking through. Making whatever change needs to be made, figuring out how to conceptualize this behavior and make the behavior make sense. You, I know that you're a therapist and you sound like a therapist as you're speaking. So I'm like. As a humanist, just a woman, as a daughter, how hard is this? Because I can't imagine this is easy.

It's hard. There are times where I want to do things that are illegal. That will get me locked up. There's

the real.

Yeah, there are times I want to do things that will get me locked up. And then I realize I'm like, girl, just look, hey, I need the space. There are times that things get intense. And I have to step out like yo, Hey, I could be about that life. No I think that we got normalized that too. Like it get hard. There's some times that you won't have to walk away and you're going to have to be like, no, I may not be dealing and it's just, it's a therapy thing again, but. This is also knowledge. You may not be dealing with a full grown woman. You may be dealing with a teenager or a child or something like that and your mother. And that's how it is. Once I got into it recently, I got to back and forth and I was just like, Hey, yo, Hey, honest. We're not about to do that. You're not about to take me there. I said, whatever it is that you need to work out, go over there and work it out. I say, because I'm 10 seconds. Okay. Goodbye. I'm dissing you. Goodbye! That's

real. That made me think of the meme that says I forgot the exact wording, but it says it's hard trying to raise my mom because that woman don't listen. So it's she's probably in a teenager, like child mindset when she's triggered by something. And even that's not fair to the daughter. This is not my job.

It's not fair. And it's one of those things that I was like, if I ever become a mother, this is something that I don't want to inflict on my child. You have to do the work. Parents have to do work, but depending on where they come from. what age they came from. My mom is a late baby boomer and they always ready to die. I don't know what it is. Late baby boomers always ready to die. And it's girl, you're not dead yet. So there's still work that you can do to better yourself and get yourself where you need to be. But there's always this pushback because a lot of people think that doing the work requires you going back to some hard things that you may not want to address. And that is not the work of, if you've seen that something is happening with your relationship or why you're not calling or why you're not doing this or why I don't hear from none of y'all, I said if you act like you got some sense, maybe you hear from me, right? Even in saying that they're not processing it. They not processing it the way that they should process it. Like maybe I'm the problem and it doesn't come. And so then it's okay, she not getting it. So I need to do the work to protect myself. And in some situations. Some people may need to walk away, depending on how detrimental that relationship is. But for me, I can deal with it here and there. But I also do a lot of self care. I know, when we say self care, what is self care? Because people, I don't want nobody to get on me and be like, Girl, what? She's gonna get her nails done and massages. No, I don't. I cry. I write everything that I want to say to that woman. Somewhere, I ain't gonna tell y'all where, cause that lady's snoopy. You also, sometimes I record it and I talk, record about it and yell, scream, do what I need to do in a car or situation, get myself out of that situation and then come back. And then for sometimes it's she wants to go back into as if nothing happened, but I'm, sometimes I have to go back and be like, look, when you did this is wild and crazy.

Yeah.

And so in talking to her, sometimes she's receiving, sometimes she don't receive. But I don't expect that always to, I expect the struggle.

Okay.

That's what it helps

To manage when it does come. Cause you're already expecting it to happen.

Yeah. Expect the struggle. Don't expect it to be easy. Don't expect you to walk away and everybody understands each other. No, it's never going to be that. There's some moments when she's that's in the past. I don't want to talk about it. That's in the past. And it's Girl, that may have been the past, but it's still present today.

I would say that same behavior is still

happening. Even with the high school sweetheart, they're still, Oh, you could have been missed this. Or you could have did this. Or maybe y'all could go to, Oh, now? Now? Now? After you sabotaged it. After you sabotaged it and I had to give it up to protect that other person. That was the one key. Or what happened with the other person? Mom you happened. And it's oh, you want to blame me, but it wasn't me. It wasn't because even to this day, It wasn't me. When I talk to people of the past that I've dated, it's still, your mom's still crazy. Your mom's still trying to control situations. Your mom's still doing this. I can't make it up when people are telling me, right? And then also accepting the fact that they're not always going to get it. They're not going to get it. And sometimes they go out of their way to not get it. That has been also like, I'm like, okay, you just choosing not to get it at this point. I think that happens a lot. A whole lot. A whole lot. But then you can also choose. to ignore the fact that they don't get it and still implement things that are going to protect you until they do get it and force them to get it with those boundaries. I told her, you can no longer call me, say that, how two family household, they'd be like, Oh, you acting like your dad or you acting like your mom. But for me, when you say that I'm acting like my biological mother, that's something totally different. Now I feel like you're putting something on me that doesn't belong to me based and you're labeling me now with something that can be very hurtful or harmful. To my mental, emotional, and spiritual self. Then I put in that boundary there was hard to adjust to, but standing on it, and I don't care what you say about, I don't got no daddy in this household. So you can't say I act like my daddy, but when you refer to that one, and that way, You're playing with me and we can't play like that. We can't play like that. And so it's like one of those things that when I say force, you have to continually force them to stick with the boundary. Yeah. Because they're going to try and eventually they'll get it. But it takes time.

Yeah, hopefully they'll get it. Okay, I have, I'm curious. And this is really just curiosity. Why do you stay in a relationship with her? Why do you do this much work to keep her in your life?

I honestly don't have

to. That's what I'm curious. Why?

I guess in humanizing her, I realized that I also have flaws too. I'm not perfect, but I don't also don't deserve the treatment, but I guess there is still like this feeling of love and compassion, but also understanding of. What you feel that is necessary for you to do. Like my mother's getting up in age, right? I already humanized her. I already forgave her for what she did. And I expect her to not make that many changes, but I still will enforce my boundaries. Now, there have been times I wanted to leave her in spaces that I'm not supposed to leave her. Like I even told her that she can get out in the middle of traffic. Okay, but there is also this other piece that when you look at. Your mom and you see them, they still were your mother. There were still sacrifices that were made and not saying they didn't, they had to, but they did. They still make some sacrifices and I've known mothers to do worse. Like my mom has done some things, but my mind never maxing the levels of some others. And I can deal with that. I can deal with her imperfections. I can deal with her. traumas, I can also create space when needed and that in itself allows me to keep my relationship with her, whereas others may feel that they can't or don't

desire to

don't desire, right? Being someone who worked as a social worker, I've seen it. I was like, huh, okay, I get it. I don't think that it's talked about much about how traumatic that relationship with your mother can be. And a lot of people make it seem as if you may have to maintain these relationships with them because of the simple fact that they nurtured or they cared for you or they gave birth to you or life to you. Your father did too. And if we can be as hard and cold and turning our backs to our fathers, we can do the same thing for our mothers as necessary. So I hold that and I don't try to force anybody to see that, but I also want them to see that your mom's human, your dad's human, your mom's human. There has to be a level of grace, but then there also has to be an understanding of where you are. Now, if you know that you 10 seconds from pushing your mother down the steps. And beating her and this, that, and the other. Might as well create some big distance there. Okay? Create some big distance there. Feeling like you want to do it and actually knowing that you're about to do it is two different things, right? My mom can still talk crazy and I'd be like, Oh, I'm gonna throw her out this wheelchair if she was in a wheelchair. Girl, you, ooh, you lucky. Yee! Versus actually being like, you know what, throwing her out the wheelchair and then watching her fall and then walking away with nothing in your heart, no feeling whatsoever. If it ever comes to that, I do support cutting that tie because you're dangerous now. You're in a whole nother level now, but if you're not in that level and then you can make it work. If not, then no, so I understand that, but I also understand that in my situation, I'm able to deal with it because I've given the grace. I understand some of the, I'm grateful for some of the sacrifices that were made, and I also learned how to create the relationship I want with her. And I wanted to look like, and you have that, there are certain things that I know that I can't talk to her about, there are certain things and people that I know that I can't bring her around. There's just certain things that I just know. I know her. So I know how to protect her and I know how to protect others from her and I know how to protect myself.

Yeah.

So when learning that I now know how to be in relationship with her.

What about your birth mom? Do you have a relationship with her?

No, it's a little challenging to do that. My biological mother has a mental health disorder. Sometimes she's here, sometimes she's not. But when she's here, when she's present, I am able to connect. I have really good memories with my biological mother when she was well. And I had some horrible ones too when she wasn't. But I think that when I was 10 years old and she told me that she was sorry, that kind of okay, I can move forward in relationship with her. I've had some really good conversations with her about situations that I was going through and gotten a lot of good guidance from her. Right now, she mad at us, but she's not talking to us. But when the day comes, when she will talk, which will probably be soon, we will reconnect with her. But it becomes, it's a lot of work, even in that relationship. And I have to be honest about the capacity that I have to continue on a consistent level of having connections with her. Because having one parent over here doing this, and another parent over here, Doing that, it becomes overwhelming, and then eventually, I probably will be like, you know what? Deuces to both of

y'all. Okay, so you're standing in between the middle of two women. that both require you to put in a lot of work to make the relationship possible.

I've been doing it for so long. Yeah. It feels regular. Okay. So it's not like something that's added to my plate. My only concern, and I think this is probably has affected me in ways of probably being in a relationship is how this will play out once I get into a relationship. What's someone, how would I explain this dynamic to my partner and how would my partner go about being in this relationship? With me knowing that this is what is necessary. This is what's going on. And will that change the dynamics of the relationship?

Will you give a warning of your adoptive

mom? I always give, this is crazy thing. I always give a warning. Everybody says. Mothers love me until she's trying to push you outside, have you outside the house of the door lock eating something that she had fixed on the steps until she keeps telling you, keep asking her for to date your daughter, but she keeps telling, because of reasons that don't make sense until she is, we are supposed to go on a date. And this is when I was dating in the house. We were supposed to go on a date and she's holding everything up and trying to sabotage the date and make you angry and frustrated with me by having me doing a list of things and before I get out the house. So it's all dandy. She will like me, but then you meet her and then you realize, oh, this is a different level. I even warned friends. I even warned friends. One of my friends was like, girl, I gotta go. You did tell me about your mother, but I did not know it was this level. And I was just like, see? Nobody believes you until you get there.

Okay, so then will you be cautious in even making the introductions?

I'm very cautious now. I'm very cautious even with friends and family. Like people will tell you that they have never really met anyone. It got so bad that even a neighbor asked me like, do you date? I'm like maybe not,

don't let her find

it. So it's just like one of those things that I have been very protective of. The dating part, because I also know that, I've dated my last few dates have resembled my mother's old behavior and that I was just like, let me hop in therapy real quick. And one plus one is not equal to two is equal to four. Why am I dating this character? And I come to realize that sometimes, even though I'm doing the work and I'm still engaging with her, there's still some animosity and some anger and some frustration that is there. From the harm that was caused when I was growing up and the way that the sacrifices and maneuvers that I had to make in order to protect others, protect her and protect myself. But also then there was the key piece that came in there that I never knew. I never was a people pleaser. And now I'm growing as a people pleaser, trying to please you and not understanding that nothing can actually come. And I think that realization came in the last relationship and I was just sitting there with tears. I'm like, why does this feel so familiar? And I'm talking to God and he was just like, because this is your mother. This is your mom. This is my, this is your adopted mother. Look at what you're seeing here. These are the facts. Not the emotions, the facts. And when I saw that, I was able to deal with that and then move it out of the way to then realizing that I need assistance to help address that. And I think that one of the things that I saw that really brought that to the forefront was when I was walking through the Clark sisters. Now I grew up in a Baptist household. And the clock sisters had a really strange relationship with their mother. And in one of the segments, one of the clock sisters told their mother, I don't know if I'm serving you or if I'm serving God. And that in itself brought it all to a forefront a few years ago with that last relationship was like, I began in people pleasing, I will begin to idolize. And seek the acceptance of people that I really didn't really care to have the acceptance of, or I really didn't care to please. I was just trying to lick the wounds that they had and make them better, where it wasn't even my responsibility. Those are not my assignments. My mother is not my assignment, which is why I also, in another way, been able to have a relationship with her. She's my pastor's assignment. Whatever y'all do, this is your assignment. This is not mine. Also realizing that she has the freedom to be herself. And also function within her own trauma. So if she is not willing to do the work, I am not responsible for answering to that at the end of the day. When judgment comes or whatever comes, I'm going to be held accountable for what I did. And I'm not saying that, God wants you to be in health, unhealthy relationships, because I don't believe that at all, but I do believe that I have a choice of maneuvering this relationship the way that I desire to. And the healthiest way for me to do is the way that I'm doing it now.

Okay. And it feels good for you.

Oh, it feels good. It's challenging, but it feels good in a sense that I'm constantly reminding myself that I don't belong to anyone. My entering into the foster system does not define who I actually am. And then three relationships come and go. And if this person wants to be in a relationship with me, they will make certain changes and they have may not have been big changes, the big ones that I want, but I do see the effort when it are, when certain things come up. They do make an effort to do certain things. And so for me, that was what keeps me in a relationship with my mother.

Okay, so she's changed a little bit. You have healthy boundaries that you enforce. And you take breaks when you need to. And those three things, it sounds like allows you to remain in a relationship with her, even though there are some bigger changes you would like to see, but you have accepted that they're probably not coming. What relationship today, any of them, so not, it doesn't have to be romantic. It can be friendships, it, whatever. What relationship today in your life brings you joy and freedom to not have to work so hard to keep it together or to keep you safe inside of it? Which one is just safe and joyful?

My girlfriends. We probably all have a story or something where I create wild mothers. So it's like normalizes it. But then we also like the way that we come and we show up for each other. For me, it's super important. We don't need to talk every day. We can go months without talking to each other and then dive in. And you won't even know that we have not been with each other. And so that nurture, that love, that care that we show each the grace. That we show each other for me is enough.

I like that. What did you need from your mom that you didn't get as a child?

Freedom. Some freedom. Freedom. Not the sense of let me go run out of the streets and do what I want. None of that that never existed. The freedom to grow without their fear.

Okay. I'm following.

So whatever it was that. She was scared of, from me leaving and going into another family, never have a connection with her again. For me, whatever it was, the stereotypes that came with being a foster child, I wish that she would have trusted herself more and what she can grow and who I, and actually trusting me from the morals and values that I came with. And even if she did not understand what those were, ask more questions about what that looked like. Because ain't nobody coming to you talking about something, I'm going to Bishop McNamara at a young age. I'm going to be a Bennett Bell and then I'm going to go to Harvard University. What 13 year old you know is talking about that? So there had to be something there and a drive. The reason why I got adopted was because I knew that in my foster home where I was at, I could not get to where I needed to go. So I told my social worker, Mr. Knight at the time that I wanted to be adopted. And then he was like, okay, who do you want to be a doctor by at the time? She was my Casa. So I said, my God, because I knew that she had the ability to get me to where I needed to go, but I needed her to trust.

Yeah.

Even with all the things that came with me having ADHD and dyslexia and all the other stuff that the doctors try to say a white therapist, white male therapist put on me. You should know that wasn't going to be true because what was I already doing? How was I already moving? What were you already preparing me for? When you left me up at nighttime, did the work not get done when you came to the school and I was not making as decent grades, but then when I started making decent grades, what happened? What changed? What was the challenge there? Looking at the facts, instead of looking at the stereotypes and the false myths and stuff that were made about people from my background would not allow me to struggle and a doubt myself a little bit the way that I had grew up because I didn't have that until all this other stuff came into play.

Yeah.

So I wish she would have trusted herself and gave me a little bit more freedom to do the things like I couldn't cheer because she thought it was gonna make me fast. Cause she felt like I came from a, I was fast when I was young and I was just like, no girl, I wasn't, I may have liked boys, but it wasn't never a given. Oh, let me go get pregnant. It never came back. I was too focused. I really was more focused on going to. McNamara and Howard and Bennett, then I was actually in some people, even when that relationship ended with my high school sweetheart, my focus then began to get more into what I was doing, even with him, my focus was still there. Even with relationships outside of that, when I got in with the adult males, it was still there, there was never. Let me go over here and do all these things. Not saying there's nothing wrong with that, but still trusted and got to know me better and trusted her, the values that she instilled in the values that others instilled, I came from a. Very strict foster home that was Islamic. I came from a Baptist home that was very strict in some ways. They had some freedoms there. I shouldn't have been allowed, but had some freedoms. And then my biological mother, there was a lot of foundation that was, that started with her. Yeah. That drew me into the young lady that she met.

Yeah.

So I wish she would have been a little bit more trusting of herself, those before her, and gave a little bit more freedom for me to explore who I was instead of like second guessing myself or not really establishing some skills that I could have established that I had to wait till later to establish.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She placed a lot of her own fears onto you and didn't really allow you to explore and experiment and figure out the person you were trying to become.

I learned from falling. Let me fall.

That's a good lesson. Great lessons come out of failures and falling and trying again. Last question. What would you tell a listener here who may see some of herself in your story or may just see similarities in her mom and your adoptive mom? What would you want to leave her with or what would you want to tell her?

Make the choice to live your life according to the way that you desire. Don't let other people's fears Or limitations and seeing you become who you desire to become, stop you from growing and becoming that individual.

Yeah. And with that, I don't think there's much else to say. Thank you Chanel so much for sharing your story and letting me interview you and being vulnerable with us and, to share pieces of both of your moms.

Yeah, you're welcome.

You made it to the end of the interview. Thank you so much for sticking around. That was a story on apologies, adoption and birth mothers. And I think the overarching theme here is trust. There was a lot of trust missing, while Chanel was growing up and some sabotage along the way. Thank you for joining me for another interview on the Mother Daughter Relationship Show and I hope you'll listen to the next episode.