Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. We say that we must come to know the difference between mobilization and organization

because the enemy will use mobilization to demobilize us. Mobilization is very easy,

very, very easy. Because since we are people who are instinctively ready to respond against

acts of injustice, anytime there's one little act of injustice, we can blow it up and we'll

find people who come and make some mass demonstration around it. Miss Sally lost her job. Let's

rally. She had a job back. People will come and rally. So-and-so got kicked out of school

because the teacher's unjust. The unjust. The people come and rally. They will come to rally

at issues. And this is what mobilization does. It mobilizes people around issues. Those of

us who are revolutionary not That was Kwame Ture, a revolutionary civil rights activist.

I've linked the full speech in the show notes, you've got to listen to it, but that was him

talking about the difference between mobilizing and organizing. We've talked a lot about that

on the show here as well. What it takes to build a sustainable, powerful movement that can utilize

the skill sets of the masses that keeps pushing forward while also building the structure

for what comes next. When I booked this interview, I knew the guests with Draw the Line were

gearing up for an important date, which is this Saturday, September the 20th. It's a highly

anticipated day of action across Canada. You will hear more about it. What I didn't know

was the depth of the organizing that's been happening around that date and the potential

this has to turn all that mobilizing that we've seen into a real people's movement. And

this couldn't come at a better time. There is no denying our movements are under attack.

And not just from the orange man in the South, Carney has fired continuous shots at Indigenous

sovereignty, climate justice, migrant rights, labor, disabled folks, and obviously the Palestinian

solidarity movement. Every time I see more horrible legislation being rolled out, my thoughts go

to the activists and the organizers on the ground having to feel these blows, likely needing

to respond to them, readjust, and keep going. And lately, under Carney, and in this global

political climate, it's all just hit another level. But thankfully, the resistance to it

all has also ramped up. Our next guests are part of a movement to connect our movements

and to get folks to pick a side in this class war. They have a set of demands that reads

as an anti-thesis to the wants of Carney, the conservatives, and the oligarchs they serve.

Let's meet them, find out what they've been up to, and hear what gives them hope in this

moment. Good morning again, everybody. Can we introduce ourselves to the audience, starting

with Willow? Hi, everyone. My name is Willow Prince. I am Nakh-e-Tanay from Nakh-e-Liw-Tan

in Northern British Columbia. I'm currently living a few hours south on the lands of the

Klaite-Li-Tanay, or what is currently and colonially known as Prince George, British Columbia. I'm

Lusilou Frogclan. uh I do use uh they, pronouns. And I'm currently working with Indigenous

Climate Action as the campaign manager as part of this broader coalition for Draw the Line,

taking place in just about five days on September 20th. And I'm super excited to be here today

with Karen, with Nathan and Jessa. Thank you, Willow. Hi, thanks for

organizations um that has been coordinating at the cross country level um to pull off

the September 20th actions and so we, Migrant Rights Network is a coalition of mostly migrant

led organizations and so we have groups that are going to be participating in and helping

lead and organize a number of the actions from coast to coast. You're a coalition within a

coalition. And we want to talk a little bit about coalition building. So Karen, I'm so

glad you could join us as well. Nathan, welcome. Hi, everyone. My name is Nathan Pryor. I'm

the National President of the Canadian Association of Professional Employees. And we're the third

biggest federal public sector union. We represent mainly policy analysts and translators. um

But yeah, we're the first of the big federal public sector unions to endorse this coalition.

And we're hoping that we won't be the last because we think it's important for federal workers

who are potentially going to lose a lot of jobs over the next cycle if these plans go through

to connect with the communities that are impacted by these cuts. So that's part of that work

and our members are of course also living in this country and impacted by these cuts. That's

why we're here too. And I'm so glad you're all here. The audience is probably running

through the intros in their head going. That's a real eclectic bunch, right? We've got folks

interested in climate justice. We've got labor represented here. So lots of talking points.

And then migrant rights. That's not the only um issues represented in, which you folks

have all kind of hinted towards is why we're here, is to talk about draw the line, a movement

again. The links will all be in the show notes for the website, the when, the where, how you

can take part. But yes. What a coalition! It's very heartwarming to see, especially

as somebody who talks to movements all the time and everyone just wondering how to make progress

on all of these things that we'll talk about, um but realizing, you know, none of it can

be done in a silo. So who else is involved in the coalition and Can we get like a little

bit of a broad overview of what Draw the Line is and then we'll kind of get into the demands

and how you've built it up to, which is shaping up to be a big event on Saturday. Yeah, maybe

I'll jump in just because I sit on the national coordination team. I've been going to the

weekly meetings where we have made a bunch of plans and decisions and are trying to move

stuff forward so I can speak a little bit to um the genesis of this. m original call to

action for September 20th m came actually from Global South groups um who wanted to mobilize

a global day of action um for climate justice. the call, the original call was actually quite

intersectional because as you know, communities um in the Global South know, you know, folks

live the intersections of the various systems that connect with climate change uh to produce

the inequalities and the injustices that people are experiencing right now. And so the Canadian

team um of kind of one of the lead organizations invited a bunch of other coalitions and groups

to join because that kind of cross-section, multiple crises at the same time kind of

analysis felt very relevant. and really kind of timely in this country right now. So with

the kind of economic crisis that we've been seeing worse in over the last few years, with

the kind of political shifts and polarization and rise of the right that we've been seeing

and, you know, the outcome of the last federal election and the track record of this current

government in its first few months um in power have I think really highlighted how necessary

and urgent and the ability to be able to take on this agenda from all sides is right now.

the kind of organizing coalition of September 20th is a number of climate organizations.

So 350.org Climate Action Network, Indigenous Climate Action, uh Sacred Earth Solar. Climate

Emergency uh and a bunch of different climate groups. And then the Migrant Rights Network

on migrant justice side. uh But we also have participation from World Beyond War and endorsements

from unions like CAPE, from the Canadian Union of Public Employees as well, CUPE, um the National

Union of Public and General Employees, NAPJI. uh And the participation of a bunch of Indigenous

groups uh that are engaged in a bunch of fights across the country around resource extraction

and land defense, and also folks who are involved in the pro-Palestine movement kind fighting

against uh militarization and the arming of Israel. So it's kind of this coming together

of a lot of different folks who uh there are relationships that exist, uh but not uh necessarily

very strong ones across all of those movements. And so um the idea was to use this mobilization

because it lands right at the beginning of parliament resuming. So the first day the house resumes

today and all the MPs are back on Parliament Hill. And this is kind of Carney's first full

run at uh being in government. And already he has pushed through a number of really egregious,

contentious bills that have really highlighted how this moment is such a crucial moment for

us to be organizing against this agenda. A lot of the folks, you know, this elbows up kind

of like narrative that really framed the federal election and a lot of people, you know, the

liberals under Carney pulled a lot of votes from the NDP. They pulled a lot of votes even

from the conservatives because of the threat of Trump tariffs and how that was being played

up. And the veil has started to come off, I think, for a lot of people. And the idea is

to use September 20th to really pull the last of that veil off and to really reveal this

agenda for what it is, which is profoundly anti-people, um pro-business em at any expense. And at

the expense of all of the communities and all of the folks who are involved in this organizing,

right? So from seniors for climate, right down to the world-changing kids groups and

all of the other groups that I mentioned that they're really seeing the diversity of the

impacts that this agenda is going to have on people. And so that's the that's kind of been

the motivation of the September 20th Draw the Line Coalition. So like for the third biggest

federal public service union, like I said, Mark Carney lied about his plans for the federal

public service and also his programs. that he was going to deliver here. We're doing 15 %

random austerity again, right after he said he was going to cap, not cut the federal public

sector. So he seems ready to get a lot of programs and services that a lot of people in this country

rely on. He's ready to cave to Donald Trump by like doing a Canadian doge, a department

of government efficiency like Elon Musk did, just massive austerity across the board. That's

partially what we're reacting to, but we also are kind of saying that we can't let this government

do what Jean Chrétien's liberals did in the 1990s, which is to gut our social safety

net thoroughly so we can just hand the country to the oligarchs again. Like we can't do that

twice. And those cuts back then to housing, to healthcare, to post-secondary education,

to a lot of things are like the direct causes of the cost of living crisis that we're in

today. So we need to stop them in their tracks this time. And so with Doge in that, like federal

workers need to look the threat that's in front of us in the eye. We can't let ourselves get

bulldozed by a Canadian Doge experiment like the American federal public servants did. But

like I said before, we also have to live in this country and we don't want it to be an

oligarch run hellscape. that means we're going to have to connect with other folks in this

country that are ready to fight Carney and his backwards agenda. And that coalition that's

forming right now is draw the line. like indigenous communities, immigrant communities, workers

needing relief from tariffs. Anybody who's dealing with the exploding cost of living, people impacted

by climate change, know, anyone who thinks that we should invest in things that actually make

our lives better rather than caving to pressure to blow it up the military industrial complex.

That's who we need to connect with right now. And so federal public servants are ready and

they need to strategically connect the work that they do to the people that rely on some

of the programs that they deliver. So a lot of people here, including federal workers,

know that they're under attack and they're getting ready to fight back. So we need to connect

with those. constituencies out there so we can boost each other's struggles. Here, Willow,

did you want to? Yeah. How did you folks get here? Yeah, I really appreciate what Karen

and Nathan were just talking about. And I could definitely build on that a little bit. uh You

know, like time and time again, and administration after administration, like, you know, we really

realized that Canada is just a few corporations in a trench coat, you know, fronting as this

democratic entity as a democratic country. when we know that it is founded on genocide, you

know, when it is founded on the exploitation of Indigenous lands and waters, not only here

to the territories that are confined within this colonial border, but Indigenous people

globally. And so in this era of, you know, greenwashing and when we're thrown around terms like economic

reconciliation, you know, it's not lost upon us when the colonial state of Canada is co-opting

words like reconciliation and sustainability. to create a false sense of progress. so,

you know, what we're facing right now is like people were talking about is this poly crisis.

You know, we're facing a climate crisis. There's incarceration, there's substance use, there's

exploitation, there's labor considerations, know, scapegoating migrant people and everything

like that. And so I think what... colonization has done such a great job of is just siloing

us, know, siloing our communities, siloing our understandings of everything. And what

mobilizations and coalitions like Draw the Line seek to do is to break down those barriers,

you know, because we know that our liberation is bound together and that, you know, the plight

of Indigenous people here in so-called Canada is also inexplicably tied to the plight of

the land, you know, as well as our Black relatives and all of those in Occupy Palestine as well.

And so Draw the Line is here to break down those barriers and to, you know, once again,

uphold and highlight that intergenerational and intercommunity transference of knowledge

that will be so key in providing solutions to the polycrisis that we are facing. A million

reasons to do what you folks are doing. And as I'm reading through your demands again this

morning and you're outlining a lot of them just as you're speaking, not directly, but

all these issues that we're talking about. And, you know, in my notes here is like, this is

the exact opposite of Carney's current agenda, right? This is the exact opposite of what

our electoral process produced and what the manufactured consent seems to be around, right?

Like Carney's operating under that he has this massive mandate from people to do this. Conservatives

seem to be excited about him as much as they don't want to admit it. But you folks and

the coalition that you're building is evidence that there are multitudes of people that aren't

just thinking Carney's making a mistake. They're willing to draw a line. They're willing to

go out and mobilize and organize against this kind of agenda. Does anybody want to speak

to like this kind of political crises that we're in and that we're trying to create, you know,

for Kearney himself, but where there are so many people in this moment that know something

bad is happening, right? They can, maybe some liberals didn't realize. But now, you know,

as these bills come in, two and five, especially um egregious, but the rhetoric, the warmongering

Carney's doing. So more and more people, think, are starting to see that, like, now is the

time to take a stand. How did you folks start to come together to make this happen? Because

I think we all know it should happen, right? We all know we should all work together to

push back against capital and its incarnations, right? politicians that further it, but

it's not easy to do. So can you talk about what that formation started to look like, like logistically

speaking, you know, you spoke of maybe like a starter organization that then branched

out and weekly meetings. How does that go with five different movements, beyond five different

movements, you know what I mean? Like you could have Karen, that list, I'll have to find it

somewhere, right? Like was hard to follow, but it's endless. It's like everybody I've ever

wished to have on the show. And somehow you're getting them all to work in one direction.

What is the secret? Anybody, any secrets, any lessons at all for folks listening? So basically,

you know, it was some of those key organizations like 350, which is involved in the Global Day

of Action, um and then Climate Action Network, and then a bunch of the other climate. groups

got on board, like Seniors for Climate, Greenpeace, um folks like that. But 350 in Canada was

really committed to, and has been, I think, for a lot of years, been really committed to

building relationships with migrant justice movement, um with uh Indigenous sovereignty

movements, and with labour. And so they really saw it as a strategic opportunity to say, this

is how we plan this thing will inform um the product and then what happens afterwards. em

And so they brought on a bunch of folks to kind of advise on like, okay, what could this thing

look like? There was a sort of crafting the political direction and then building the structures

that will allow that political direction to manifest. So the five demands were drafted

across movements by kind of a core group of folks that were then taken back to their respective.

member organizations and memberships and base. And then they built a structure to kind of

reflect that. So there's a national coordination team that brings representatives from all of

the partner and endorsing organizations that are organizing five or more actions and that

have membership. um And then that national coordination team provides some of the sort

of bigger picture um direction and makes sure that the thing kind of keeps moving at a big

picture kind country level, but the idea is to have a day that is really decentralized.

So all of the local actions that are happening are highly decentralized. ah as long as you

sign on to, and you have to actually sign on to, but as long as you sign on to the sort

of basis of unity, which is not just the five demands, but also the ways in which you're

going to implement those five demands in organizing your local actions. So ensuring that you are

reaching out. So that includes things like ensuring you're reaching out to organizations you don't

usually work with. Are there people that work on these issues in your community that you

don't know? Go and find them. Make sure that everybody's coming to meetings. Make sure that

everybody's given a space to speak, like that sort of stuff. And then so long as people

signed on to that, the actions could kind of just self-organize. So across the country,

all of the local actions in cities, smaller communities, also in rural areas are being

self-organized by little coalitions of groups and individuals from those places who signed

on to that basis of unity and want to do something together under this umbrella of draw the line

on the basis of these demands. So it's very decentralized in a lot of ways, but it means

that there's like a lot of levers that a lot of different people are pulling on to make

sure that the machine kind of keeps running. So there's a whole national Digicom's team

that is supporting the like, you know, template media advisories that people who at the local

level who may not have as much capacity or experience can repurpose. And there's like financial support

that's going to some of the local actions where people who maybe don't have an organization

that has like, let's say staff and a budget and an office that can support. So there's

a whole kind of, there's a bunch of different systems that are in place to kind of help the

local actions. take off, but also reflect their local reality, but staying within this big

tent of what it is that we're trying to do and the analysis that we're trying to push

forward and the agenda we're trying to set. So it's a lot of different pieces. em you know,

it's like, I don't know most of what's going on. And I don't think anybody knows most of

what's going on. because it's pretty decentralized, that's kind of the way we've kind of tried

to build it. I suppose that goes to answer one of the questions that I pre-submitted to you

folks to help prepare, it was asking you to almost comment on the difference between mobilizing

and organizing and how you would use this moment of really mass mobilization. to organize and

folks are always looking for the evidence kind of afterwards, but you're setting the foundations

for the afterwards. I can feel all these lessons from within the movements being played out

here, just like allowing the local to build what they can build, right? Build it uh unique

to their community. um But then you figured out the structure so that you don't get stalled.

like you say, the way to nurture in a new product as well, right? Like whatever manifests after

this will be set by that basis of unity that you folks built. Was it hard to build consensus

around the five demands? Because I'm not arguing with any of them. We haven't listed them.

I'll just kind of sum them up very bluntly. know, tax the rich, feed our communities is

one. Indigenous sovereignty, two. migrant rights, you know, status for all and the end of scapegoating.

Number four is ending the war machine. Like you're just like pissing Carney off. And then

number five is ending fossil fuels. Like people are just, this is like absolutely contrary

to everything that's been passed. How's it been watching Carney do this while you know, not

just your movement has been so deeply impacted, but you likely know that comrades working

across have probably just been hit many blows prior to this, right? So how's that helping

us push through this dismay, right? Where folks, where do we start? What do we do? How do we

prioritize? And you're like, we're doing all of it. Willow, you want to speak to what it's

been like watching Kearney? We called it a paradigm shift here on the show. Like it's,

it's not a continuation of Trudeau, although like we're not letting him off. Those, those

policies were awful, but it's really hyper. It's in hyperdrive at the moment in an ugly

political atmosphere globally. So, yeah, let's talk to that a little bit. Yeah, of course.

So I feel like the current political landscape is, you know, we we witnessed Carney's platform,

you know, in the in the election. And he was talking a lot of what sounded all right, you

know, and just in over 100 days in office, like it has been a total switch up, you know. And

so. When Carney's administration is passing things like Bill C-5, and so for listeners

who might not be familiar with Bill C-5, it um essentially fast tracks major projects

and it doesn't allow Indigenous people in so-called Canada to consent or to say no to the projects

that are relegating their communities, their lands and waters to the sacrifice zones of

industry and notably of oil and gas expansion. And so, you know, this is not just an attack

on Indigenous sovereignty, but rather a way of waging war on all of our futures. You know,

when Indigenous people safeguard 80 % of the world's biodiversity in a time of unprecedented

climate chaos, climate justice cannot occur without the meaningful inclusion of Indigenous

people. And so under this new era of, you know, economic reconciliation with Indigenous communities

and oh You know, things like the First Nations Major Projects Coalition and even this Indigenous

Advisory Board that was uh released with this, you know, major projects office under Bill

C-5. You know, we don't need more Native capitalists. You know, we need real people doing real work

in climate action, you know, and uh this co-optation of words and, you know, it's being redwashed

or... making it sound much more responsible and friendly towards Indigenous people and

their livelihoods. But, you know, we know that it's a tokenization um and that this

is just a way to, you know, check off some reconciliatory boxes um in their however many calls to truth

and reconciliation that they have not acted upon. um And so in this era of Bill C-5, you

know, and um I think it was last week where the list of projects was released. And over

half of them are actually taking place in British Columbia alone. And so what we're seeing also

with these projects is, you know, there's an epidemic of missing and murdered Native women

that takes place where these projects are happening. And so even where I'm from on Yenka Dene territories

in Northern British Columbia, you know, it's the highest rates of missing and murdered Native

women in North America. And so my home territories are actually known as the Highway of Tears.

because of the sheer amount of missing and murdered Native women. And so, you know, this

takes place because of the man camps that are so integral to the success of major projects.

And so when we have man camps accompanying all of these different projects, we have missing

and murdered Native women, you know, and we also have the entire disruption of livelihoods,

you know, whether that's pipelines crossing hundreds of salmon-bearing streams. We have

these man camps and sexualized violence, you know, and ultimately we have these emissions

that are contributing to the climate chaos that we're already facing. And so it is, I don't

think disrespectful is even the word to do this justice, but it is incredibly disrespectful

that, you know, Mark Carney is passing something like Bill C-5 in this time of literal unprecedented

climate chaos and another summer of absolutely devastating wildfires. you know, and supporting

these projects that directly contribute to that. And so not only in these environmental concerns,

you know, here in so-called Canada, but also supporting Israel while they carry out a genocide

in occupied Palestine. You know, I'm not even sure of the updated number right now, but I

know that after just a few months, like almost two years ago, after October 7th, 2023, the

emissions of Israel's carpet bombing of their siege on Gaza You know, that was equivalent

to like 20 countries annual emissions in just a few months by one country. And then the next

staggering fact that I saw was about how it's, you know, these emissions are equivalent to

over a hundred countries emissions. And so, you know, Canada is complicit in this genocide.

know, Canada is actively supporting and arming and, you know, bankrolling the genocide that

we're witnessing live happen on our phones, you know, for the last two years. And so Mark

Carney is, you know, I think a shell of a human being. I think he proved that Canada

can be bought, you know, whether that's by oil and gas officials, by the state of Israel,

and by oligarchs like Nathan was talking about. You know, Canada in just over 100 days of office,

uh there's this nickname that I heard for Mark Carney, and it's uh the carbon cowboy. because

he's very big on carbon markets, which we know are a false solution and a very dangerous distraction.

That's his baby. Exactly. And so, you know, carbon cowboy Mark Carney has ridden his ponies

or his projects of national interest all across this country at the expense of all of our futures,

at the expense of healthy lands and waters and for any generation to, you know, get a

green planet for them to inherit. And so, yeah. I think the current political landscape is

mind blowing to witness day to day. And so something like draw the line where, you know,

we have all of these different intersectional fights, but ultimately what we're doing here

is to build this solidarity with anti-colonial movements globally. Absolutely. You hit on

so many reasons why all these demands are interconnected. Nathan, you're representing. uh maybe not labor

as a whole, I mean, in this discussion you are for all intents and purposes, but you you

represent a very large union that you explained very clearly why it's directly impacted by

this Carney regime, but was it difficult to, you know, sign members up, so to speak, for

the other four demands? We'll assume. Well, I don't even know where your uh membership

would fall under the demands, like meeting the end of austerity. But this is kind of outside

your collective bargaining agreement. It's not always easy to get Labour to sign up this publicly.

You listed uh CUPE and there was one more, NOOPG? So many acronyms, Karen, help me. NOOPG,

yeah, National Union of Public in general. Thank you. But, you know, We need more labor.

how, maybe you have secrets from within CAPE that you can share with other labor leaders

who might be listening, or how can we bring labor along more? Because Carney and the liberals

are a very anti-worker from the back to work legislation, the examples. There's no shortage

of proof that this continued path of NATO spending will lead to even more austerity and, Karen

and Willow have outlined other things, but yeah, like there's a real urgency here and what's

the secret? I mean, I'd say on Cape's side, so the current executive of Cape, myself included,

like really took a strong line saying we will be a social unionist union, which means that

we're very actively connecting with constituencies that aren't just our own members, but are also

our own members, right? Our members are indigenous people, our members are, uh or at various

times have been migrant workers. uh There's a lot of different kind of constituencies within

our own membership, but also just if we're talking about where federal workers kind of see the

coalitions that we're going to need, I think, to face down a really anti-worker government

like Carney, it's not just going to come. It will come from the strength of our own collective

action as a membership or our unity, our discipline, our ability to take big steps like the Air

Canada flight attendants did to defend our rights as such. But it's also going to be connecting

to people in this country that have a lot of the same needs that we do. Like we need affordable

housing. We're trying to advance reconciliation. We have lot of responsibilities on that front

because public service, for example, I've been actively involved in genocide before. don't

our members don't want to actively contribute to the one that's happening right now in Palestine.

So this is way bigger than just kind of like saying what's in our collective bargaining

agreement. This is what our members are being expected to carry out and do. And like I said,

we live in this country, too. So we don't want it to turn into the oligarch run hellscape.

But when we saw groups like M.R.N. or 350 kind of connecting the dots on what's going on here

and obviously, you know, fronting the reversing the 15 % cuts to all federal programs right

now was front and center. So we said that that involves us directly. But I think more importantly,

and this is very important, uh this coalition is calling on folks in Canada to pick a side,

right? Like all the discussions around Carney being a master of austerity, a representative

of the corporate or the oligarch class, like I said before, you know, a threat to the collective

well-being of just ordinary people in this country, as well as like more specific constituencies

that are going to be the hardest hit. Indigenous communities defending their lands and their

sovereignty, migrant workers saying, we're not going to be hyper exploited anymore. Palestinians

saying we're not going to co-sign a genocide. We're seeing sides forming here and Mark Carney

isn't on ours. So we are choosing a side here and it's on a different side of the line than

Mark Carney is on. Because Mark Carney, like he said, has shown us who he is. He could care

less about bargaining rights for workers or just plain rights for migrants. He care less

about reconciliation with Indigenous people. He doesn't care that much about a climate that

we can actually live in. For his whole life, he's been on the side of the oligarchs. And

that's becoming plainly obvious now as he takes the mask off and kind of shows us that he's

a more polite Canadian version of like Musk and Trump. And that might seem harsh, but I

think that's how we need to really frame this right now. like, Carney likes to present himself

as a bookish economist who's just gonna make the rational choice like he always has rather

than kind of the ideological warrior that he is. And like federal public servants already

know better. So Carney, just uh like Trudeau before him, just like... Well, yeah, they like

to drone on about how the public service is so bloated. But like we actually spend proportionally

less on public servants now than we did under Stephen Harper. And that's like blows most

people's minds because of the ideological way that it gets framed. The truth is that programs

got way bigger. And like, think for good reason, things like childcare, things like that we

desperately needed in this country got built a little bit under Trudeau. And now Mark Carney

wants to roll a lot of that back. And he's not going to be able to promise the world to

everybody like he's doing and saying, We're just going to, you know, blow it up the military

and we're going to do all these tax cuts and we're not going to have like the proper resources

that we need to fulfill these promises. So we're calling that right now. We're calling

the question, as they say, in the labor movement. um Public servants didn't cause the deficit.

Tax cuts for the rich caused the deficit that we're in right now. And now we're asking like

working people to pay, including public servants who are the most efficient people to do any

work that needs to be done. And Carney doesn't want to take the political risk of telling

Canadians what he's about to take from them. by handing the keys to the palace, to like

the military industrial complex that's contributing to a genocide. Oil and gas barons that are

like chomping at the bit to extinguish Indigenous sovereignty. The massive tax breaks he's about

to hand out to the rich and that he already has. So he's just saying we're magically going

to save money by cutting public servants specifically while somehow keeping all the services and

programs that you want at the same levels. And that's a scam that Canadians can't keep falling

for. We can't do a 1995 budget again. But right now what they've been doing is just setting

random targets for cuts before knowing what their actual program needs are going to be

and what staff they're going to need to do those jobs. And then just handing even more money

than they save to McKinsey to Deloitte when the work still needs to be done. And they're

not, they don't care about efficiency at this because they won't grant public servants remote

work rights, which would take billions of dollars in office costs off the book every year. So

this is not about efficiency. It's not about some like just abstract bookkeeping and balancing

the budget. Just like they did in 1995, the balancing the budget actually meant attacks

on communities across this country, on workers, on Indigenous communities, on the poor, on

working people in general. So we're here to call that out as well as protect the work that

we do, which we think in a lot of ways serves Canadian as well. I think a lot of the language

that you've put together on the website for Draw the Line, and I've seen in various places,

does a really good job of also not asking folks to plead with politicians. but to do what Nathan

described, know, pick a side ah and to show that that side is really not either right

or left. I mean, this is a left-wing show. This isn't to coddle the right, but it's just to

point people up, to capital, to the actual enemy and the cause, because provincially, you're

all seeing the same bills as well, right? British Columbia is, this is only possible with the

aid of the NDP government in British Columbia and in Ontario, the conservative government.

So it's like across the political spectrum. They're working towards the same end. Carney,

as we use his name, I use his name all the time, but it's not him, right? It's the oligarchy

speak of it. It's the corporations. And again, like the language that folks have been organizing

around, I think is really clear there. You know, we're not signing another petition begging

for Carney to do the right thing. We're showing him how much people are willing to mobilize

against this particular agenda. Karen, was that deliberate? I know I'm gonna squeak a

couple last words out of you before you have to run, but in the planning of this, you know,

it has to set a direction. I know draw the line language was given to you, right? It was

part of a plea from the global South, right? um But the appeals to Canadians um was, you

know, crafted, right? You're trying to pull as many people in as possible and point them

in the right direction. Can you talk about how that was deliberately set in motion,

the direction you folks would take? It's definitely aspirational, like the language of all of the

demands. ah And it has not been without ah its challenges. There are a lot of folks

who don't see themselves necessarily reflected in all of the content of all of the demands,

who don't see the connections between some of those other issues. and the stuff that

they may feel most impacted by or most passionately about. In a way, that was kind of the point

was to sort of like kind of move the dial in kind of our collective consciousness about

what is going on and what's going to be necessary to address it. And using this moment where

there was this kind of momentum around this, what was originally, you know, kind of mostly

just a climate mobilization uh to kind of say like, if this is the moment that where we

have a government that is clearly indicated that it is going to come for all of us and

those who haven't realized it yet will soon, then this is an opportunity for us to build,

start building the kinds of like collective and organizing infrastructure that we are going

to need to fight that agenda on a going forward basis. So it is not a coalition that is organizing

towards September 20th. It's actually a coalition that is organizing beyond September. And that

September 20th is just the beginning. And that sentiment has been kind of like built over

the months in the organizing and definitely like it wasn't necessarily all there in the

beginning. And we've really seen a lot of shifts, I believe, you know, reflected, you know, across

a number of different movements, both in the like how folks talk to each other, how people

understand what it is that we're trying to build. how people are communicating that understanding

to their base and to their followers and to their members and stuff. So I think that that's

really the probably the point that I want to leave off on is to say like, this is really

about the beginning of something. And I think it speaks to that question about like the mobilizing

versus the organizing. And that requires, you know, a lot of us. Some of us have been doing

this for a long time. Some of us have been doing it just for a few minutes. And so we have different

relationships to what those two things are and what that looks like. And I think the objective

here, and it feels like what's being achieved in a lot of places is pushing that forward

and creating that understanding amongst folks in local communities, but also in the movements

across the country that... This is something that we need to be thinking about long-term

and relationships that we need to be building, trust that we need to be building, understanding

that we need to be building about how our issues intersect, trust and understanding and learning

around the use of different tactics and their limitations and their utility, um all of these

sorts of things. We're trying to build across and speak across movements at a lot of different

levels. And the idea is that we are going to need that and we're going to need those relationships

if we're going to be able to fight what is coming. And Carney has very clearly shown what he's

willing to do this far. And I think we're only going to see more of that in the next few months.

we are having, you know, we have the situation where we have the liberals and the conservatives,

like the NDP don't even have party status. The liberals and the conservatives are basically

vying for who is going to be more. right than the other and they're trying to outflank each

other on the right constantly and that's going to go very badly for absolutely everybody who

isn't them and their financial backers right um and their international allies in some governments

and also in their financial backers internationally so the relationships we're trying to weave

here and the trust we're trying to build here i think is going to be crucial for being able

to build that kind of a fight back that we're going to need in the coming months and in the

coming years. And one of the last questions that I left for y'all to answer, I could, I'm

going to answer myself first because often one of the big critiques about big marches is that

they're just parades, right? That they're just, they're showings of power. can, we can find

positive points in them always, right? But we're at a point where folks are wanting to

draw a line, right? And Karen did a great job of explaining the foundations and talking

about September 20th actually as a beginning. That acknowledgement I think is important

for folks to really feel the weight of it as well, that it's not just another big march.

So what about this moment that has me most hopeful, and then I'll ask you to answer that

question, is seeing all the strings that are kind of being drawn. That's how my mind I think

visualizes how Karen described just the coast to coast. uh organizing that was going on,

big, small organizations, the way some structure was being fed out to these but leaving it decentralized.

it's like this web that we needed to build. Each movement itself has been doing a great

job of building databases and connections and learning from each other and leaning on one

another. And I think the Palestinian movement has done a great job or just, you know, being

confronted with the genocide also of bringing the movements together for that purpose in

this moment of urgency. And now I feel like this is the step beyond that, right? Where

it's not just Palestine, although that is top of our mind still, but that wouldn't solve

the whole problem, right? We have an anti-capitalist agenda at hand as well. So that's what left

me most humbled, just like, thinking of how many more people are now connected and feel

connected within their own communities and to other movements, right? So they're not alone

in this time and then they won't be alone. So what has you most hopeful about watching

this coalition build towards September 20th? But I use the very words Karen cautioned me

against, right? Cause September 20th, you're not building towards the 20th, but beyond.

But it's still very exciting to see it manifest itself on a single day. But yeah, do you want

to talk about what's hopeful in this moment? Because Lord knows we've got all kinds of examples

why we need to be on guard, right? So I think with with hope, you know, hope often seems

like this very abstract, intangible concept, you know, and I think it's it's important to

acknowledge that hope is not necessarily something that's rooted in positive thinking or burying

your head in the sand. You know, hope is something that's it's muscular and it needs to be exercised

every single day. So I think hope exists in the acknowledgement that a better life is possible,

no matter how small or statistically improbable it may be. What we're facing right now, politically,

environmentally, this is a crisis of imagination that we're in because of the last few generations,

the last few lives, we're now unable to imagine a life outside of capitalism, outside of colonialism.

You know, and so I think now more than ever, it's important that we have our creatives

and our visionaries and our artists as part of these movements so that they can imagine

lives outside of capitalism and outside of colonialism. You know, because we know and especially as

Indigenous people, like we know that the government will not save us. We know that the United

Nations will not save us. And the power has always been and will always be with the people.

And so in this time of, you know, really dark dire times in the political landscape in anticipation

of ecological collapse, you know, like we need to acknowledge that we all have a role to

play. We all have a role to take and that carries responsibilities, you know, not only to us

in our lives, but to the generations that come after us, you know, for a hope of a green

planet for them to inherit, you know, in the hopes that they will inherit a just future

because of what we do today. You know, and I think that's what's so incredible about the

Draw the Line mobilization is that, you know, we have to think globally. We need to build

this solidarity with anti-colonial movements globally, but we need to act locally. You

know, that's where we can exert the most influence is the community that we can reach on foot.

And so when I think about hope, you know, I think about acknowledging a better life as

possible and that, you know, it was in recent lifetimes where we didn't live like this, you

know. That's hard for people to imagine, Willis. Right? And so like we need to, you know, acknowledge

that it doesn't have to be this way. You know, it can be a billion different ways, but it

does not have to be this way. And so I think when what gives me hope is just seeing how

much power there is in the people in organizing something like this. And I think there's also

so much power in the youth leadership that I've been seeing across this country, you know,

organizing mobilizations, taking action. you know, and yeah, I think there's a lot of hope

to be had on days like September 20th. Take it away, Nathan. What's leaving you most hopeful?

I don't think I'm going to top Willow in terms of what they said on a poetic level that was

beautifully well put. I will say, though, that just like what we do in the labor movement

often, what people do in social movements often is something called power mapping. You have

to find the right strategies, the right tactics to aim at a target. move them. like the target

here isn't just Mark Carney, it's 40, 50 years of government for the oligarchs by the oligarchs,

right? Like I'm really framing this as this is a class project that they're doing, and

they're taking it out on most of the people in this country. um And so like, you know,

we've been experimenting a lot over the years, over the decades and whatnot. And what we do

in the labour movement is called structure based organizing, we have the numbers were brought

together in the workplace by the employer. And like, if we can get to 90 % action, we can

do what the Air Canada flight attendants didn't defy. laws, right? Like that's possible if

you have the discipline and the unity, but that's, you know, contained to your workplace and whatnot.

like what I'm most excited about here is that we're stitching together so many different

really honed organizers, activists, people who have experimented with strategies and tactics

to confront this bigger project that the oligarchs have been unleashing on most people in most

countries across this world for the last 40 to 50 years. We're really excited about connecting

all these things together and finding new relationships and finding new creative ways that we can ah

use our power mapping and use the strategies and tactics that we've honed over over years

and decades to synthesize them with each other and start building kind of like joint infrastructures

that aren't just about coming to a protest. Right. Like we saw we saw what happened in

the US with the federal public servants who frankly weren't organized enough to be able

to do more than go to protests when frankly when like the scale of the crimes of Musk and

Trump were kind of like coming. they should have shut down the government at that point,

but that's such a huge risk level that involves so many calculations and you need to know that

people have your back in those moments. So this is the start of something and I think a lot

of people are gonna have each other's backs in really exciting ways that can really confront

the power structures that are in front of us that frankly are making all of our collective

lives a lot worse and have been for the last 50 years. So this is a hinge point in Canada

at least and across the world also that I'm really excited that we can like stitch together

a lot of infrastructure. that's already been built and we're not starting from scratch.

I'm here for all of that. Absolutely. And I will be in downtown Toronto on Saturday. If

you can, you don't have to share your exact location, you know, if you don't want to, but

where and what will you be doing on September 20th? CAPE is going to have a contingence.

We're running federal public service worker contingence in Ottawa, obviously, the national

capital region. And then, and Montreal and Toronto as well. obviously there's actions happening

in over 60 cities and you'll see Cape flags at a bunch of those as well. But those are

the three main ones that we're driving people to right now. You can go to the Cape website

if you'd like to join the federal public sector working contingent. What about you Willow?

You're going be busy. Yeah, you'll find me in Vancouver. So I'll be on the West Coast

and yeah, I'll be in the March. Hopefully sharing some words as well afterwards. But

yeah, anybody can find me in Vancouver that day. Alright, and for folks, I know a lot of

listeners are in Toronto and if you're just so lazy, you won't click on the link. It starts

at Young and Dundas at 2 o'clock and then we will end up at Queen's Park by 4-ish. You know

how these things roll, right? So find them in between if you need to. But again, more information

in the show notes and ways to find these folks and the organizations that they're working

with. I cannot thank you enough, not just for taking time to come into our little studio

and talking to our audience who's equally as excited about this as I am, I'm sure, but

for the work on the ground. We are all very appreciative of all that energy that you folks

are spending to build towards something that we need. um A lot of folks don't take that

effort. It's very easy to not to do anything right now as well, right? To be overwhelmed

and happy to amplify any of that work. Very, very, very grateful. And good luck on

Saturday and beyond. I would love an update, you know, like three months down the road to

see what fruit, what other fruits it bears. thanks for having us and we'll see you all

in the 20th. Because unconsciously, instinctively, they seek freedom. What we must do is make

them conscious. Look, you want freedom anyway. Let's be serious. Let's sit down. Let's plan

it. Let's wait protracted war and let's tear down the system and walk on to liberation.

It's as simple as that. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank

you for joining us. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively.

You can follow us on Twitter at BP of Disruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting

the status quo, please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a

patron. Not only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content.

So reach out to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time,

keep disrupting.