1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,519 Matt Edmundson: Hello and welcome to the eCommerce Podcast with 2 00:00:03,519 --> 00:00:05,140 me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:05,379 --> 00:00:10,940 This is a show all about helping you deliver eCommerce wow. 4 00:00:11,169 --> 00:00:15,859 And to help us do just that, today we're chatting with the legendary 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,220 Ben Leonard, a regular on the show, about his brand new book. 6 00:00:20,885 --> 00:00:22,895 This book here, if you're watching the video "Quit 7 00:00:22,905 --> 00:00:24,625 Stalling and Build Your Brand." 8 00:00:24,625 --> 00:00:29,754 You don't need an MBA to crush it in eCommerce is the title of the book. 9 00:00:29,754 --> 00:00:33,475 Got some amazing reviews on Amazon already, even in its launch phase. 10 00:00:33,905 --> 00:00:35,675 So we're going to be getting into it. 11 00:00:35,825 --> 00:00:36,815 All of that. 12 00:00:37,115 --> 00:00:38,005 Grab your notebooks. 13 00:00:38,275 --> 00:00:42,815 Now, before we do, let me just remind you to sign up to the email newsletter 14 00:00:42,825 --> 00:00:47,575 if you haven't done so already, and we will email you the show notes, 15 00:00:47,584 --> 00:00:50,675 the links, all the guest links, all the stuff that they mention. 16 00:00:50,675 --> 00:00:54,345 Like today, we'll send you a link to Ben, his book, and all that sort of good stuff 17 00:00:54,345 --> 00:00:56,485 straight to your inbox, totally for free. 18 00:00:56,975 --> 00:00:58,975 All you've got to do is head over to ecommercepodcast. 19 00:01:00,005 --> 00:01:00,575 net. 20 00:01:01,155 --> 00:01:01,695 Fill out the little form. 21 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,570 And we'll send that to you every week. 22 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,950 And of course, if this is your first week with us, a very warm welcome to you. 23 00:01:08,340 --> 00:01:11,290 I've been saying this the last few weeks, actually on, on the podcast. 24 00:01:12,210 --> 00:01:15,550 I am really stoked about all the new people joining the show 25 00:01:16,130 --> 00:01:17,490 subscribing and downloading. 26 00:01:17,660 --> 00:01:21,290 There's a slight ego boost because we like bigger numbers, but it's just good. 27 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:23,839 It's just good that so many more people are connecting with us and 28 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:25,050 getting more stuff out of this. 29 00:01:25,420 --> 00:01:29,210 So if you are new to the show, a very warm welcome to you. 30 00:01:29,210 --> 00:01:30,330 It's great that you're here. 31 00:01:30,590 --> 00:01:33,110 Do connect with me on LinkedIn or social media. 32 00:01:33,110 --> 00:01:34,300 You'll find me through the website. 33 00:01:34,710 --> 00:01:38,250 And just let me know what you think, because we're just generally interested. 34 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:45,390 Now today we're diving into the riveting world of online entrepreneurship with a 35 00:01:45,390 --> 00:01:50,800 guest who doesn't just talk the talk, no, but he walks the walk and occasionally has 36 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,799 stumbled a few times a bit like myself. 37 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,094 Now joining us. 38 00:01:54,095 --> 00:01:57,655 eCommerce is the illustrious, the legendary, the one, the only Ben Leonard 39 00:01:58,115 --> 00:02:02,305 the mastermind behind the insightful book"Quit Stalling and Build Your Brand." 40 00:02:02,805 --> 00:02:07,735 With a journey that includes navigating the treacherous waters of eCommerce 41 00:02:08,654 --> 00:02:12,105 and has achieved a staggering six million in annual revenue himself 42 00:02:12,405 --> 00:02:14,945 and a mid sev mid seven figure exit. 43 00:02:15,145 --> 00:02:15,765 The dream. 44 00:02:15,845 --> 00:02:17,285 Now Ben is here to share. 45 00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:20,920 Here's pearls of wisdom, sprinkled with a dash of humor and a 46 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:22,820 truckload of practical advice. 47 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:23,860 I love this bio, Ben. 48 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,540 So grab your favorite brew, lean in, grab a notebook, grab a pen 49 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,970 and let's chat to the man himself. 50 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,309 Ben, welcome to the show, man. 51 00:02:32,310 --> 00:02:32,900 How are you doing? 52 00:02:33,650 --> 00:02:34,520 Ben Leonard: It's good to be here. 53 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,520 I didn't write that, but I'll take it. 54 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:37,300 Yeah, good to be here. 55 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:37,640 Thanks, Matt. 56 00:02:38,940 --> 00:02:39,450 Matt Edmundson: No problem at all. 57 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,090 No, it's it's great because the bio is one of those things that 58 00:02:43,090 --> 00:02:45,200 sort of gets put onto my system. 59 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,410 And I sit usually when I'm, when I do the intro on the podcast like I just have 60 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:51,940 with you, it's the first time I see it. 61 00:02:52,250 --> 00:02:53,420 Which is why I giggled to myself. 62 00:02:53,450 --> 00:02:56,000 'cause I just think this, these things are so well written by the production team. 63 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:56,570 It's really cool. 64 00:02:57,500 --> 00:02:59,320 Anyway, we're here. 65 00:02:59,530 --> 00:03:00,670 Whereabouts in the world are you? 66 00:03:00,670 --> 00:03:01,185 For those that dunno. 67 00:03:02,770 --> 00:03:05,790 Ben Leonard: I am in Aberdeen, in North East Scotland, and today I really am 68 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:08,929 in Aberdeen, because as we were just saying off air I've had to come somewhere 69 00:03:08,940 --> 00:03:11,710 different today, because they're digging up the road outside my house, but 70 00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:15,230 usually I live in a nice little town about twenty miles south of Aberdeen. 71 00:03:15,900 --> 00:03:17,880 Matt Edmundson: And is it, at the time of recording, it's what, 72 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:19,500 it's the, it's February 12th. 73 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,859 And we've got little breaks in the crowd clouds here, crowds, 74 00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:25,000 little breaks in the crowds. 75 00:03:25,050 --> 00:03:27,290 So the sunshine's breaking through, the skies are blue. 76 00:03:27,580 --> 00:03:29,520 What's it like up, very up north? 77 00:03:30,670 --> 00:03:33,510 Ben Leonard: Similar, but today is one of the first days 78 00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:35,600 I can actually see blue sky. 79 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,750 It's been miserable up here. 80 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,265 It's normally, if there's any Americans listening to this, we are 81 00:03:40,265 --> 00:03:42,695 like fulfilling, like the absolute British stereotype, aren't we? 82 00:03:42,695 --> 00:03:43,625 Because we're chatting about the weather, 83 00:03:44,055 --> 00:03:44,135 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, 84 00:03:44,255 --> 00:03:47,905 Ben Leonard: but but it, yeah it's been pretty, pretty rubbish this winter. 85 00:03:48,035 --> 00:03:50,345 So I'm looking forward to to spring and summer for sure. 86 00:03:50,665 --> 00:03:51,435 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no doubt. 87 00:03:51,485 --> 00:03:51,735 No doubt. 88 00:03:51,765 --> 00:03:53,895 You can't actually get much further north, can you? 89 00:03:53,945 --> 00:03:56,855 There are still places you can go further up from Aberdeen, but not 90 00:03:56,855 --> 00:04:00,425 many when you think about the British Isles and how far up you can go. 91 00:04:01,395 --> 00:04:04,800 So I, my son's he's at uni at St Andrews. 92 00:04:05,780 --> 00:04:09,740 And ah, a stunning, beautiful place, on the coast there, just amazing. 93 00:04:10,270 --> 00:04:13,960 But I'm never envious of the weather he has to deal with being in that place. 94 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,460 When it's beautiful and sunny, it is stunning, but when it's grey and 95 00:04:18,460 --> 00:04:20,470 cold, man, is it grey and cold, right? 96 00:04:21,405 --> 00:04:21,765 Ben Leonard: Yeah. 97 00:04:21,825 --> 00:04:22,245 Correct. 98 00:04:22,425 --> 00:04:22,755 Yeah. 99 00:04:22,815 --> 00:04:23,235 It could be worse. 100 00:04:23,235 --> 00:04:25,335 It could be on the west coast where it just rains all the time. 101 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:26,300 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's true. 102 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:27,310 That's very true. 103 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:28,780 Anyway, weather over. 104 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,590 We're just bringing you the weather update, courtesy of 105 00:04:31,590 --> 00:04:32,590 your local weather service. 106 00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:35,330 Let's talk about the, we've had you on the show a couple of times. 107 00:04:35,330 --> 00:04:38,380 We've talked about buying and selling businesses, eCom businesses, we know you 108 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,090 involved in brokerage and stuff like that, but for some reason one day you obviously 109 00:04:43,090 --> 00:04:47,550 woke up and thought, my life's not complicated enough I need to deepen the 110 00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:52,210 complexity and the emotional heartbreak of my life and decide to write a book. 111 00:04:52,250 --> 00:04:53,170 What was that all about? 112 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:55,450 Ben Leonard: Yeah. 113 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,850 The book came out October 2023, and it took me about 18 months to write, 114 00:05:00,930 --> 00:05:06,000 so in Spring of 22, I finally pulled the trigger on writing it, and I'd had 115 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:11,710 the idea brewing away for probably 18 months, 2 years before that, but the 116 00:05:11,710 --> 00:05:15,710 thing that made me pull the trigger was this, it was Spring 2022, I was 117 00:05:15,740 --> 00:05:17,240 sitting at an eCommerce conference. 118 00:05:19,350 --> 00:05:23,770 It was a packed room, and this bloke on stage was mesmerizing the audience. 119 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:29,590 And I took a step back, metaphorically speaking, and took my attention 120 00:05:29,590 --> 00:05:31,640 away from him and looked around the room at everybody else. 121 00:05:32,470 --> 00:05:35,950 And they were fixated on him, reading, reading his lips, listening 122 00:05:35,950 --> 00:05:38,550 to everything he had to say, eating out the palm of his hand. 123 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,920 And here's the thing that kind of got to me, was this guy, everything he was 124 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,160 saying was okay, most, basically correct. 125 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:51,270 It wasn't all that special, and there was no evidence of 126 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:53,100 anything he had actually done. 127 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:58,250 It was all theory, and smoke and mirrors, you could do this, you could do that. 128 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,550 And I've actually done a bit more digging on this guy, and I think 129 00:06:00,550 --> 00:06:01,810 he's a fake guru, to be honest. 130 00:06:02,450 --> 00:06:05,290 And I thought, it's time to come out of stealth mode. 131 00:06:05,770 --> 00:06:11,150 And write a valuable book for eCommerce business owners or indeed would be 132 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:16,750 eCommerce business owners that actually shows people, yes, here's everything 133 00:06:16,750 --> 00:06:18,630 you can do, and here's what I did. 134 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:20,710 I think that there was space for that. 135 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:21,760 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 136 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:23,890 Ben Leonard: And I just felt like I had a book in me. 137 00:06:23,930 --> 00:06:24,450 I wrote it. 138 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:24,680 Matt Edmundson: on you. 139 00:06:24,970 --> 00:06:25,260 Good on you. 140 00:06:25,590 --> 00:06:26,320 I love this. 141 00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:30,390 I've come across this so many times, Ben, where people will go to 142 00:06:30,390 --> 00:06:32,440 people for, eCommerce entrepreneurs. 143 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:34,280 So you're running an eCommerce business, or you're thinking about 144 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,920 setting one up and you're going to go and get some advice from somebody. 145 00:06:37,660 --> 00:06:40,260 And the people you get advice from have rarely run. 146 00:06:40,925 --> 00:06:43,545 Their own eCommerce business themselves. 147 00:06:43,975 --> 00:06:47,785 And it used to be years ago the trend is slightly different now, I think 148 00:06:47,785 --> 00:06:50,965 with social media, but it used to be that if you wanted to know something 149 00:06:50,965 --> 00:06:53,935 about eCommerce, you would go and talk to your web designer, you'd go and 150 00:06:53,935 --> 00:06:56,465 talk to your web development company and it's be like hang on a minute. 151 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,970 Have they ever actually ran an eCommerce business? 152 00:06:59,970 --> 00:07:01,850 Have they ever gone and picked and packed boxes? 153 00:07:01,850 --> 00:07:04,380 Have they ever had to deal with stock shortages? 154 00:07:04,380 --> 00:07:06,030 Do they know how to do customer service? 155 00:07:06,030 --> 00:07:10,850 And it always used to intrigue me that we would, as eCommerce as we would go 156 00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:15,040 and seek advice from people that hadn't actually walked the walk or talk the 157 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,800 talk, mainly because I think there was a lack of people that had at that point. 158 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,690 There are a few people that are emerging now. 159 00:07:20,230 --> 00:07:21,490 Yourself being one of them. 160 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:22,340 And. 161 00:07:22,515 --> 00:07:26,145 So I'm really stoked you've written a book from a point of view of this 162 00:07:26,155 --> 00:07:30,465 is what I did, this is what I would do again kind of thing because 163 00:07:30,515 --> 00:07:31,765 it's not just all theory, is it? 164 00:07:31,795 --> 00:07:36,955 This is actual practical in the trenches kind of stuff, as I like to call it. 165 00:07:37,500 --> 00:07:41,800 Ben Leonard: Yeah, it, what I've tried to create is a roadmap from 166 00:07:42,700 --> 00:07:44,760 idea all the way through to exit. 167 00:07:45,575 --> 00:07:49,345 With strategies that are timeless. 168 00:07:49,495 --> 00:07:52,675 So it's not, the minutiae and the nitty gritty technical of build a 169 00:07:52,675 --> 00:07:54,595 landing page using this tool, right? 170 00:07:54,775 --> 00:07:56,665 Because that's gonna go outta date in five months. 171 00:07:57,345 --> 00:07:59,355 I want it to be useful in five, 10 years. 172 00:08:01,295 --> 00:08:02,495 And what I've tried to create. 173 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,720 Are these timeless business principles but applied to our world of eCommerce? 174 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:12,330 Whether you are somebody who has an idea and hasn't started yet, or you're 175 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:16,390 already turning over, 7, 8, 9, 15 million, whatever it is, I believe that 176 00:08:16,390 --> 00:08:17,980 there's nuggets in there for everybody. 177 00:08:18,190 --> 00:08:20,240 So that's what I've set out to create. 178 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,450 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, and a cracking job you've done too. 179 00:08:22,450 --> 00:08:24,660 I remember when you sent me the first chapter of the book, you said, I'm 180 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:26,480 going to write a book, here's the first chapter, what do you think? 181 00:08:27,170 --> 00:08:29,910 I think I sent my, I can't remember what I said exactly, but something 182 00:08:29,910 --> 00:08:32,310 along the lines of, I thought actually you were writing really well. 183 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,620 Because the thing that I've noticed is a lot of people who write 184 00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:39,660 books don't always have the skill to write, if that makes sense. 185 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:42,700 And I think the way you do write and the way you tell your stories and the 186 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:45,150 way you get the points across in the book is actually quite captivating. 187 00:08:45,745 --> 00:08:49,155 And so you've in effect become the proverbial guy on the stage, haven't you? 188 00:08:49,525 --> 00:08:52,345 Which is which is memorize you're, and you're mesmerizing, 189 00:08:52,345 --> 00:08:53,455 I think was the word you used. 190 00:08:53,715 --> 00:08:55,055 But obviously you're not the fake guru. 191 00:08:55,065 --> 00:08:55,675 At least I hope you're not. 192 00:08:55,695 --> 00:08:56,345 I don't think 193 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:58,635 Ben Leonard: I'm trying I'm definitely not a guru. 194 00:08:58,765 --> 00:09:00,055 But thanks. 195 00:09:00,075 --> 00:09:02,815 I have an unfair advantage because I have a background in academia, 196 00:09:03,595 --> 00:09:04,875 very different science, right? 197 00:09:04,925 --> 00:09:06,875 I studied zoology and then ecology. 198 00:09:06,935 --> 00:09:11,575 So I was always good at writing scientific reports and that, that 199 00:09:11,585 --> 00:09:14,165 type of writing, which obviously is not what's in the book, but. 200 00:09:14,445 --> 00:09:17,095 Once you're half decent at any kind of writing, you can tweak. 201 00:09:17,115 --> 00:09:19,395 And of course, I had, I then had the book edited, right? 202 00:09:19,475 --> 00:09:24,035 We would take my pretty good writing and basically make it better so that it's in 203 00:09:24,035 --> 00:09:27,075 a state that people people can digest. 204 00:09:27,755 --> 00:09:31,305 So the editing process basically took my half decent writing and made 205 00:09:31,305 --> 00:09:34,985 sure that we translated it from British English into American English. 206 00:09:35,675 --> 00:09:37,945 Matt Edmundson: Especially if you want to sell to an international market, right? 207 00:09:38,050 --> 00:09:40,770 Ben Leonard: oh, yeah and we would take, it's hilarious because my editor 208 00:09:40,770 --> 00:09:44,000 would be like and what does this phrase mean and I'd have some ridiculously 209 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,800 quaint British phrase in there and she'd be like yeah, no one knows what that 210 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,110 means so we'd translate it so That was 211 00:09:49,155 --> 00:09:50,675 Matt Edmundson: We should maybe do that on this show. 212 00:09:50,705 --> 00:09:53,775 We should maybe have an AI filter that does it in real time. 213 00:09:53,795 --> 00:09:54,785 This is what Matt said. 214 00:09:54,785 --> 00:09:56,025 This is what Matt means a thing. 215 00:09:57,030 --> 00:09:57,550 Ben Leonard: Yeah. 216 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:57,960 Yeah. 217 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,020 Yeah. 218 00:10:01,305 --> 00:10:02,155 Matt Edmundson: Oh, that's brilliant. 219 00:10:02,245 --> 00:10:03,865 He had to get it edited to the American English. 220 00:10:04,245 --> 00:10:08,525 We totally off track, totally off piste Ben, but one of the things that I've 221 00:10:08,525 --> 00:10:12,015 been married 26 years this year, right? 222 00:10:12,940 --> 00:10:17,960 And people often ask me, what, why have you been so happily married for so long? 223 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,120 It's one of the, the big questions I get asked quite regular. 224 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,170 And I remember very early on in our relationship, Sharon and 225 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:28,990 I read the book, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, okay? 226 00:10:29,490 --> 00:10:31,590 Which is, if you've never read it, it's a fascinating book, 227 00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:32,900 I can summarize it for you. 228 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,140 Because there's a fair bit of waffling, but it's a good book. 229 00:10:37,170 --> 00:10:40,870 But in essence, the best bit of the book was, the concept was men are from 230 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,950 Mars, women are from Venus, therefore we talk very different languages, right? 231 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,870 And so what the man says was in, he had this page, what the man said, what 232 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,400 the man means and what the woman hears. 233 00:10:51,540 --> 00:10:53,170 All three things were different, right? 234 00:10:53,410 --> 00:10:54,840 And then they did the same for the women. 235 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,080 What the woman says, what the woman means, what the man hears. 236 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:00,950 And so this was very good for me because it was like data 237 00:11:01,020 --> 00:11:02,490 that I could feel into my brain. 238 00:11:02,490 --> 00:11:05,800 So when Sharon said something, I would run it through this algorithm in my head 239 00:11:06,390 --> 00:11:09,410 and she would just look at me and go, Oh, you're translating right now, aren't you? 240 00:11:09,790 --> 00:11:11,380 And I go, yes, I am. 241 00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:14,140 So then we'd have conversations about it, which was just great. 242 00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:16,850 But I love the fact that you're actually doing this. 243 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,870 Americans are from America, British people are from England, 244 00:11:19,870 --> 00:11:20,830 and we need to translate. 245 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:21,480 Ben Leonard: Pretty much. 246 00:11:21,490 --> 00:11:21,820 Yeah. 247 00:11:21,820 --> 00:11:22,070 Yeah. 248 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,420 But it's important when you think about it, just from, most of the quote unquote 249 00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:32,060 target audience are probably either in the U S or Canada or are from elsewhere in the 250 00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:33,840 world, but have learned American English. 251 00:11:34,110 --> 00:11:34,540 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 252 00:11:34,810 --> 00:11:35,160 Yeah. 253 00:11:35,450 --> 00:11:39,710 Ben Leonard: The only thing that will be interesting is when I record 254 00:11:39,710 --> 00:11:42,340 the audiobook, which I haven't done yet, and I'm reading things back, 255 00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:46,720 and I'm saying cell phone, and hating myself for not saying mobile phone. 256 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:50,210 Matt Edmundson: ha. 257 00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:52,820 Maybe you just have to do an anglicized version, I don't know. 258 00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:54,300 Ben Leonard: I might have to do it, yeah. 259 00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:55,470 Translate it back. 260 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,980 Matt Edmundson: So one of the good things I like about your American English 261 00:11:59,980 --> 00:12:03,380 book here and this is one of those things that people would never know. 262 00:12:03,790 --> 00:12:08,080 But for someone like me, it's brilliant because as you can see on the screen if 263 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:12,720 you're watching the video, the book has really quite nice margins and it's got 264 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,020 a little bit of space between the stack. 265 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,240 I don't know if this was deliberate, but it means that I can underline 266 00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:18,840 and which is I'd like to do in books. 267 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,260 I like to draw around things. 268 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:22,770 I like to make notes in the margin. 269 00:12:22,780 --> 00:12:26,430 So just thank you for that because that's actually quite helpful. 270 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:30,040 The wide margins, the one thing that people never think about, but 271 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,250 it's actually really important. 272 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:34,900 Ben Leonard: And you know what's quite interesting is when I look 273 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,990 at the sales I thought that most sales would come through Kindle 274 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:39,440 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 275 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:40,050 Yeah. 276 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:41,290 Ben Leonard: it's 2024, right? 277 00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:43,780 But still, paperback is still winning. 278 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,430 So it goes paperback, then Kindle, then hardback. 279 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,790 So hopefully plenty of people have got lots of notes in the margins. 280 00:12:49,845 --> 00:12:50,095 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 281 00:12:50,445 --> 00:12:51,175 Absolutely. 282 00:12:51,225 --> 00:12:51,815 Absolutely. 283 00:12:52,195 --> 00:12:55,935 So let me let's dig into the book a little bit and let me just start by 284 00:12:55,935 --> 00:12:59,875 saying there was this bit right at the start, which I thought was great. 285 00:13:00,355 --> 00:13:05,730 In the sense that you said, That you were telling the story about when because 286 00:13:05,730 --> 00:13:11,600 you used to own run a company called Beast Gear right and you're telling the 287 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,610 story about how You're watching the TV. 288 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,700 What was it you get a text message don't you that's it your cell 289 00:13:19,700 --> 00:13:24,540 phone It's a very first sentence in the book my cell phone pinged 290 00:13:27,570 --> 00:13:28,110 It was an 291 00:13:28,130 --> 00:13:32,240 Ben Leonard: Before they translated that, I'd probably written, somebody texted me. 292 00:13:34,220 --> 00:13:39,030 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, somebody texted me, it was an acquaintance texting. 293 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:40,440 Isn't this your mouthguard? 294 00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:44,580 Curious, I opened the text and saw what appeared to be a photo of his TV screen. 295 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:48,440 I looked more closely, it was a freeze frame from that night's fight. 296 00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:53,420 The MMA fighter was grinning widely and he was obviously wearing your mouthguard 297 00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:54,570 and there is, beast gear on there. 298 00:13:55,370 --> 00:13:58,980 And so you talk about that and you say that this was the moment I knew 299 00:13:58,980 --> 00:14:00,520 I had arrived as an entrepreneur. 300 00:14:02,370 --> 00:14:04,330 And here's the best line in the whole book. 301 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,270 I already knew that Liverpool Football Club used my products. 302 00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:10,860 Now I'm saying that just because I'm a big Liverpool football club 303 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:11,860 fan and I thought that's brilliant. 304 00:14:13,305 --> 00:14:13,665 Ben Leonard: Thanks. 305 00:14:13,775 --> 00:14:17,895 I didn't, and again, that, the funny thing about that is, so the MMA 306 00:14:17,895 --> 00:14:19,165 fighter there, he used a mouth guard. 307 00:14:19,165 --> 00:14:20,775 His name was Michael "Venom" Page. 308 00:14:21,155 --> 00:14:23,005 I had no commercial relationship with him. 309 00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:24,445 He chose my product. 310 00:14:25,135 --> 00:14:26,105 And the same with Liverpool. 311 00:14:26,145 --> 00:14:29,965 So I found out that they were using my products in their gym. 312 00:14:29,995 --> 00:14:33,055 And then I saw, they'd had some photo shoot done, I think I don't know. 313 00:14:33,275 --> 00:14:36,105 It was Virgil van Dijk was coming back from injury and so somebody went into 314 00:14:36,105 --> 00:14:39,565 their gym with a camera and was in the press and there were B-Skill's products 315 00:14:39,585 --> 00:14:43,945 in there and I could see them and Joe Hart was at Man City at the time and 316 00:14:43,945 --> 00:14:46,915 he'd been posting pictures on Instagram of my stuff as well so I had all these 317 00:14:46,915 --> 00:14:50,085 athletes using my stuff and most of these were not actually commercial 318 00:14:50,085 --> 00:14:53,955 relationships and that was yeah, that was a weird but phenomenal feeling. 319 00:14:54,690 --> 00:14:59,750 Matt Edmundson: It's a bit, weird but phenomenal, but it's, I mean it's almost 320 00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:05,550 like, how can I, it's almost like the holy grail, isn't it, that we try and attain, 321 00:15:05,610 --> 00:15:09,100 we spend hours plotting and planning how can we get celebrities to use our 322 00:15:09,210 --> 00:15:12,300 products, now we've got endorsements, we've got influencer marketing, we've got 323 00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:14,710 all that sort of stuff, and yet somehow. 324 00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:17,150 You've got all these people using your products. 325 00:15:17,170 --> 00:15:19,740 There's no commercial arrangement, but there's photographs of 326 00:15:19,740 --> 00:15:20,690 it all over social media. 327 00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:27,020 That to me seems like an absolute gold mine in a lot of ways. 328 00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:30,960 We, like I say, we try and achieve that kind of thing, but was that luck? 329 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:31,860 Was that happenstance? 330 00:15:31,860 --> 00:15:32,570 Was that planned? 331 00:15:32,570 --> 00:15:34,840 Was that something that you deliberately set out to do? 332 00:15:37,275 --> 00:15:42,975 Ben Leonard: I think that it definitely, it was probably none of those, so In the 333 00:15:42,975 --> 00:15:47,235 sense that it wasn't really luck because you make your own luck, like you had to, 334 00:15:47,935 --> 00:15:52,505 for those people to use those products, you had to have a quality product in the 335 00:15:52,505 --> 00:15:56,455 first place, and they had to have heard about it, and they've heard about it 336 00:15:56,455 --> 00:15:59,875 because it's a quality product, and you've marketed it well, and it markets itself 337 00:15:59,875 --> 00:16:01,245 well because it's a quality product, 338 00:16:01,455 --> 00:16:01,735 Matt Edmundson: yeah, 339 00:16:03,175 --> 00:16:06,155 Ben Leonard: and then it shows up on their radar and they start using your 340 00:16:06,155 --> 00:16:10,640 products I certainly didn't set out I always wanted to create a brand that 341 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,410 people would use and that hopefully athletes would use and from the start, 342 00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:18,570 I did work with, I did have commercial relationships with, influencers and 343 00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:21,940 athletes, but at a much lower level, I wasn't getting on the Bellator MMA, 344 00:16:22,170 --> 00:16:23,670 primetime TV or anything like that. 345 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:29,140 But I think once you If you're setting out to build a legit consumer products 346 00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:31,860 brand rather than just sell stuff on the internet, You've got to almost 347 00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:36,700 have an unrealistic goal, if you like, that's always going to keep 348 00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:38,550 pulling you in the right direction 349 00:16:38,875 --> 00:16:42,035 For instance in, there's a part in the book where I'm talking about something 350 00:16:42,045 --> 00:16:47,925 called brand DNA I talk about the vision for your brand, which is a statement of 351 00:16:48,665 --> 00:16:53,315 Where you're going as a result of your brand's purpose and for B Skier, the 352 00:16:53,315 --> 00:16:57,975 vision was to become the go to brand A fitness slash strength training equipment. 353 00:16:58,915 --> 00:17:01,775 And if you read that and you think about that and that's completely unrealistic. 354 00:17:02,115 --> 00:17:05,615 Some bloke running a relatively small eCommerce business become 355 00:17:05,615 --> 00:17:07,105 the go to fitness training brand. 356 00:17:07,205 --> 00:17:08,485 No, it's never going to happen. 357 00:17:08,495 --> 00:17:09,755 It doesn't matter. 358 00:17:09,805 --> 00:17:10,375 It's not the point. 359 00:17:10,465 --> 00:17:13,225 It's a, an aim for the moon and you'll land in the stars kind of scenario. 360 00:17:13,745 --> 00:17:16,385 It's gotta be something that's just going to pull you constantly 361 00:17:16,765 --> 00:17:18,243 in the right direction. 362 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,090 Matt Edmundson: yeah, nah, super, and actually let's dig in this a 363 00:17:21,090 --> 00:17:25,420 little bit more because one, there's a sort of theme in the book, this 364 00:17:25,420 --> 00:17:30,260 sort of golden thread, one of the golden threads that comes through is 365 00:17:32,115 --> 00:17:38,925 This differential you have between building a brand versus just selling 366 00:17:38,925 --> 00:17:41,135 stuff online and selling more stuff. 367 00:17:41,565 --> 00:17:44,875 And it's even in the title, quick stall and build your brand. 368 00:17:44,885 --> 00:17:47,795 It's not quit stalling and sell loads of stuff online, right? 369 00:17:47,795 --> 00:17:50,665 There's a real intentionality here in the title, I'm assuming. 370 00:17:51,245 --> 00:17:51,685 What? 371 00:17:52,025 --> 00:17:53,245 Let's talk about that a little bit. 372 00:17:53,255 --> 00:17:53,675 Why? 373 00:17:53,695 --> 00:17:55,595 Why do you make that distinction? 374 00:17:55,625 --> 00:17:57,725 I agree with it, by the way, I just want to point that I'm not 375 00:17:57,735 --> 00:17:58,575 being awkward from the start. 376 00:17:58,575 --> 00:18:00,935 But I'm just curious, why did you? 377 00:18:01,335 --> 00:18:03,435 Why is that such a key distinction for you? 378 00:18:05,415 --> 00:18:10,400 Ben Leonard: I think that unfortunately in the eCommerce space, there Is this 379 00:18:10,510 --> 00:18:15,250 toxic side hustle culture that is being promoted through social media, YouTube, 380 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:20,160 et cetera, of Hey, you can make money online all you have to do is drop ship 381 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,940 and set up a Shopify website to do it, or sell on Amazon, or sell on Walmart, 382 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,940 or, now it's sell on TikTok shop. 383 00:18:27,505 --> 00:18:31,275 All of those channels are absolutely fine, but if you want to actually build 384 00:18:31,385 --> 00:18:35,385 a real sustainable business that's going to last into the future, that you can be 385 00:18:35,385 --> 00:18:39,585 proud of, that's really going to generate a decent amount of money that can replace 386 00:18:39,585 --> 00:18:43,395 your income, and eventually you can sell for potentially life changing money. 387 00:18:43,575 --> 00:18:45,515 You've got to treat it like a big boy grown up a business 388 00:18:45,535 --> 00:18:46,725 and treat it like a real brand. 389 00:18:47,535 --> 00:18:52,635 And the way I encourage people to think about it is, ask yourselves how your 390 00:18:52,635 --> 00:18:55,635 favorite brands look and feel and behave. 391 00:18:56,215 --> 00:18:58,975 So that could be like a brand related to one of your favorite 392 00:18:58,995 --> 00:19:02,905 hobbies, or your day job, or even the food products in your cupboard. 393 00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:05,385 What do those brands do? 394 00:19:06,015 --> 00:19:08,705 First of all, they make you feel a certain way. 395 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,260 And that could be, they make you feel, it could be a brand that 396 00:19:12,260 --> 00:19:15,540 makes you feel very calm, or a brand that makes you feel very excited. 397 00:19:16,010 --> 00:19:18,950 It could be that you're fiercely loyal about that brand, to the 398 00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:21,230 point that you'll have that brand's logo tattooed on your leg. 399 00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:24,130 For instance, if you're a Harley Davidson fan, or a Nintendo 400 00:19:24,130 --> 00:19:25,140 fan, or whatever it might be. 401 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:32,445 And then ask yourself, what is it that those brands do to make me feel that way. 402 00:19:33,625 --> 00:19:36,015 And that is all to do with how they position their products, how 403 00:19:36,015 --> 00:19:39,125 they position their brand and how they speak to you through their 404 00:19:39,125 --> 00:19:40,335 branding and their marketing. 405 00:19:41,115 --> 00:19:44,275 And then say to yourself, there's absolutely no reason I can't 406 00:19:44,275 --> 00:19:46,025 do all of that for my business. 407 00:19:46,545 --> 00:19:49,135 People, I've had conversations with people before and they've said, 408 00:19:49,135 --> 00:19:52,125 Oh yeah, I I sell these things, I'm not really a brand, right? 409 00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:53,015 I'm not like Nike. 410 00:19:53,775 --> 00:19:54,385 And I say no. 411 00:19:54,965 --> 00:19:57,765 It's all just a matter of scale, brand is for anyone. 412 00:19:58,405 --> 00:20:01,230 Once upon a time, Nike was just an idea in somebody's head. 413 00:20:02,060 --> 00:20:04,500 And even when it was more than an idea and it was a business, there 414 00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,550 was a day when they hadn't sold anything yet and it was still a brand. 415 00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:12,330 So yeah, that's my take on it. 416 00:20:13,235 --> 00:20:17,125 Matt Edmundson: it's super powerful too because one of the things that 417 00:20:17,125 --> 00:20:21,915 I've noticed going back to the YouTube videos and the social media videos 418 00:20:21,915 --> 00:20:26,045 you mentioned, about go buy this product, sell it on Amazon, make 419 00:20:26,045 --> 00:20:27,555 a small fortune kind of a thing. 420 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,340 My experience is that works for maybe one in, I'm going to guess 421 00:20:32,350 --> 00:20:34,190 maybe five, 10, 000 people. 422 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:35,590 It doesn't work. 423 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:36,970 It's not like a foolproof system. 424 00:20:36,970 --> 00:20:40,935 I But somebody somewhere has gone and probably made a lot of money 425 00:20:40,945 --> 00:20:45,055 just going and buying a widget off Alibaba and then selling it 426 00:20:45,075 --> 00:20:46,515 on Amazon without any real care. 427 00:20:46,515 --> 00:20:53,715 And it, and we like it because it feels easy, right? 428 00:20:54,395 --> 00:20:57,915 We like things that make that feel easy to do. 429 00:20:57,945 --> 00:21:00,085 Oh, I can just go find this product put it on Amazon. 430 00:21:00,085 --> 00:21:02,855 I don't have to think about anything else and the money is just gonna roll in. 431 00:21:03,835 --> 00:21:07,175 Yeah, the reality of life, I think is often quite different 432 00:21:07,395 --> 00:21:13,395 and building a brand feels to me, Ben, like it's a bit more effort. 433 00:21:13,535 --> 00:21:15,525 It's a bit more intentional. 434 00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:20,565 I've gotta, I've gotta do something a little different. 435 00:21:20,675 --> 00:21:21,445 Would that be fair? 436 00:21:23,215 --> 00:21:26,585 Ben Leonard: It would be fair, but here's a really important 437 00:21:26,585 --> 00:21:27,405 distinction I would make. 438 00:21:28,555 --> 00:21:33,475 It's a few years ago, going back to probably between about 2015 439 00:21:33,475 --> 00:21:37,865 and 2018, we'll say, if we take, you mentioned Amazon there, if 440 00:21:37,865 --> 00:21:41,915 we take that as an example, and even like running Instagram ads to 441 00:21:41,915 --> 00:21:43,495 dropshipping sites as well, actually. 442 00:21:44,865 --> 00:21:46,695 It really was as easy as you described 443 00:21:46,905 --> 00:21:46,995 It. 444 00:21:47,005 --> 00:21:49,475 Grab a product, slap a logo on it, stick on the internet, sales will 445 00:21:49,475 --> 00:21:51,225 roll in, literally do nothing else. 446 00:21:52,725 --> 00:21:56,445 And so trying to sell people the idea that they should go to the effort of building 447 00:21:56,445 --> 00:22:01,665 a real brand was the argument that was just more effort and they didn't need 448 00:22:01,675 --> 00:22:03,545 to do that, yeah, that kind of stood up. 449 00:22:04,015 --> 00:22:09,035 But now I would say that doesn't apply, build, going to the effort of building 450 00:22:09,035 --> 00:22:15,485 the brand actually makes the business easier because that is how you stand out. 451 00:22:16,075 --> 00:22:21,345 If you are just selling stuff, you are stuck on a hamster wheel of chuck it on 452 00:22:21,345 --> 00:22:26,575 Amazon, have a half decent listing, run pay per click ads, rinse and repeat. 453 00:22:27,935 --> 00:22:33,865 Whereas, if you do that, but also sell a quality product that genuinely solves a 454 00:22:33,865 --> 00:22:38,075 problem, build a relationship with that customer outside of the Amazon ecosystem. 455 00:22:38,645 --> 00:22:41,655 Provide them with helpful, compelling, useful, engaging, free content in 456 00:22:41,655 --> 00:22:45,265 whatever form they want, whether that's Blog articles or podcast episodes or 457 00:22:45,265 --> 00:22:50,245 videos show up regularly wherever they are on social, providing all of that 458 00:22:50,245 --> 00:22:53,895 value and make them know and trust you and actually potentially love your 459 00:22:53,895 --> 00:22:57,425 brand and make them view you and your brand as an authority in your niche. 460 00:22:58,055 --> 00:23:02,985 Then, next time they need to buy another widget related to your niche, 461 00:23:03,825 --> 00:23:06,425 they won't just go buy something random on Amazon, they'll come back 462 00:23:06,425 --> 00:23:09,485 to you and that might be on Amazon or it might be on your own website. 463 00:23:09,765 --> 00:23:12,045 And that makes the whole thing easier and it makes your customer 464 00:23:12,105 --> 00:23:13,515 acquisition cost cheaper. 465 00:23:14,465 --> 00:23:16,865 And it means you're going to grow your brand bigger and faster. 466 00:23:17,555 --> 00:23:20,855 And it also means that ultimately one day when you want to sell it, somebody is 467 00:23:20,855 --> 00:23:23,645 going to want to pay more for it because they can see you've got a tribe of raving 468 00:23:23,645 --> 00:23:25,235 fans who'll buy any product you launch. 469 00:23:25,585 --> 00:23:28,125 Whereas somebody that's just stuck on that hamster wheel is just 470 00:23:28,125 --> 00:23:31,655 selling stuff and nobody wants to, that's a very risky business. 471 00:23:31,655 --> 00:23:32,635 Who would want to buy that? 472 00:23:32,635 --> 00:23:34,465 Let alone pay you a lot of money for it. 473 00:23:34,865 --> 00:23:35,075 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 474 00:23:35,075 --> 00:23:35,980 No it's very true. 475 00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:36,820 Very true. 476 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,580 In fact, if I fast forward to the end of the book almost at the end 477 00:23:40,585 --> 00:23:44,510 of the book you have something called the value pyramid, right? 478 00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:46,190 So this page here and you've got this diagram. 479 00:23:46,865 --> 00:23:49,425 And this is in the chapter you call Plan Your 8 Tip. 480 00:23:49,525 --> 00:23:52,965 So you're building this business and you're thinking about selling it and a 481 00:23:52,965 --> 00:23:55,295 lot of people want to build businesses to sell them, which is fair enough. 482 00:23:55,935 --> 00:24:00,415 At the bottom of that value pyramid is brand. 483 00:24:01,195 --> 00:24:03,885 And you say to drive home the point you've seen throughout the book, 484 00:24:03,905 --> 00:24:07,345 the bottom layer of the pyramid brand is your most important lever. 485 00:24:08,635 --> 00:24:12,045 With no brand identity, there's no hook, there's no excitement, there's no 486 00:24:12,045 --> 00:24:13,845 legion of fans waiting for your launch. 487 00:24:14,405 --> 00:24:20,395 Etc, etc, so what, why is, I know you've got to read the whole book 488 00:24:20,395 --> 00:24:22,875 in some essence to find out, but let's talk about this a little bit. 489 00:24:23,325 --> 00:24:27,155 Why have you got brand as this very first layer of your pyramid? 490 00:24:27,195 --> 00:24:29,065 Why is that the critical one at the bottom? 491 00:24:30,085 --> 00:24:30,545 Ben Leonard: Yeah. 492 00:24:30,675 --> 00:24:34,065 So just to describe the value pyramid a bit for people listening. 493 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:38,330 It looks like a Mayan pyramid rather than an Egyptian pyramid, so 494 00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:40,460 it seems like five layers, right? 495 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:46,500 So you've got brand at the bottom, then growth and profitability, then risk, then 496 00:24:46,510 --> 00:24:48,410 transferability, and then documentation. 497 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:52,330 And the argument that I make, and this is a model that we use at 498 00:24:52,330 --> 00:24:56,140 Ecom Brokers, is that to sell your business you need at least three of 499 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:57,710 those layers to be in good standing. 500 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,810 The reason brand is at the bottom is if you pull it out, then the whole 501 00:25:02,830 --> 00:25:07,910 thing more or less comes tumbling down because it's as you just described there. 502 00:25:07,970 --> 00:25:13,380 If you don't have a brand, you don't have longevity or sustainability. 503 00:25:13,810 --> 00:25:16,010 Because you're just selling stuff and you're on the hamster wheel. 504 00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:18,200 You don't have that army of fans who'll buy your stuff. 505 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:19,360 You don't have repeat custom. 506 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,630 You don't have anyone on any sort of subscribe option, whether that's on 507 00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:25,230 Amazon or it's on your own website. 508 00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:29,290 You can't just post a new video showing a new product on YouTube and suddenly 509 00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:30,380 have people coming and buying it. 510 00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:31,670 You haven't got waiting lists. 511 00:25:31,670 --> 00:25:34,860 You haven't got people devouring your newsletter or listening to your podcast 512 00:25:35,310 --> 00:25:38,230 or consuming the content that the influencer you've got a partnership 513 00:25:38,250 --> 00:25:40,320 with is putting out every week. 514 00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:50,550 It's just a business that sells products, and if I'm an investor, and I'm Dave 515 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,400 from M& A, at a private equity backed firm who's buying eCommerce businesses, 516 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,450 or even a strategic organization who wants to buy an eCommerce business 517 00:25:59,450 --> 00:26:04,480 in your niche to bolt on, And I've got a pot of money, and I've got two 518 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,420 businesses that are virtually the same size, selling virtually the same stuff, 519 00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:11,440 and everything else is basically equal. 520 00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:14,020 Profit's the same, year over year growth is the same. 521 00:26:14,915 --> 00:26:16,495 Which one would I rather spend that money on? 522 00:26:16,495 --> 00:26:19,945 The one with a legit brand identity with raving fans who I know will help grow the 523 00:26:19,945 --> 00:26:23,185 business bigger and faster in the future with the product pipeline that's planned? 524 00:26:23,855 --> 00:26:27,555 Or the business that is basically just a bunch of products on a hamster wheel 525 00:26:27,555 --> 00:26:31,815 relying on paid traffic over and over again to rinse and repeat that cycle? 526 00:26:32,755 --> 00:26:35,865 I'm gonna buy the one that's way more sustainable and less risky, right? 527 00:26:35,925 --> 00:26:38,775 Actually, the risk layer of the pyramid, which is further up, is 528 00:26:38,775 --> 00:26:40,505 actually intricately tied to brand. 529 00:26:40,655 --> 00:26:43,245 Because when you have a brand, immediately you have lower risk. 530 00:26:44,385 --> 00:26:45,845 So brand ties the whole thing together. 531 00:26:45,845 --> 00:26:47,645 You have a brand, you have more growth and profitability. 532 00:26:47,655 --> 00:26:48,835 You have a brand, you have less risk. 533 00:26:49,575 --> 00:26:52,675 And this was, for me, was one of the things that everyone else in the 534 00:26:52,955 --> 00:26:56,065 mergers and acquisition space as it relates to eCommerce was missing. 535 00:26:56,115 --> 00:27:00,675 They were talking about profit and growth, but they forgot all about brand. 536 00:27:01,030 --> 00:27:01,360 Matt Edmundson: yeah. 537 00:27:02,650 --> 00:27:05,570 That's a really powerful point and I'm curious then Ben, let's 538 00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:06,500 talk about this a little bit. 539 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:10,430 Let's say I'm launching a new skincare brand and I'm reading your book. 540 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:14,430 What are some of the key things that I'm going to learn about building? 541 00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:18,850 What are some of the lessons in there that are going to be super helpful for me? 542 00:27:18,850 --> 00:27:24,260 Because it building brand is just one of those phrases that kind 543 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:27,200 of rolls off the tongue for many people, but in real practical 544 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:28,640 terms, what does it actually mean? 545 00:27:29,145 --> 00:27:30,805 Ben Leonard: I think there's a lot of different ways we can look at this. 546 00:27:30,805 --> 00:27:39,225 So we can, because the way I define a brand and I got uninvited on a podcast 547 00:27:39,225 --> 00:27:40,385 a few weeks ago because of this. 548 00:27:40,995 --> 00:27:41,125 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 549 00:27:41,125 --> 00:27:41,815 Sorry about that. 550 00:27:41,815 --> 00:27:44,425 It 551 00:27:44,485 --> 00:27:46,655 Ben Leonard: I promise I'll come back, but I'll just go off on a slight tangent for 552 00:27:46,655 --> 00:27:48,285 a second because I promise it's relevant. 553 00:27:48,825 --> 00:27:51,455 A lady on LinkedIn looked up what I was doing and sent me an 554 00:27:51,455 --> 00:27:52,545 invite to come on her podcast. 555 00:27:52,585 --> 00:27:55,235 She had a PhD in stuff to do with branding. 556 00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:57,610 And I sent her a couple of chapters from the book. 557 00:27:57,630 --> 00:27:59,300 This was before the book had come out. 558 00:27:59,910 --> 00:28:02,380 And she read them and came back and said sorry, I can't have you on. 559 00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,640 And so basically her point was she was an academic. 560 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,670 She had a PhD in this stuff and she knew better than me. 561 00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:09,630 And my definition of brand and branding was all wrong. 562 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,410 And I said wouldn't that be a really interesting episode for your guests? 563 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,150 No, was the answer. 564 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:17,530 I'll come back now to what you were saying. 565 00:28:17,550 --> 00:28:19,040 Look, my definition of a brand is this. 566 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:22,780 It's a group of products or services, it solves products for 567 00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:23,740 a particular group of people. 568 00:28:24,325 --> 00:28:24,585 Matt Edmundson: tells 569 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,780 Ben Leonard: So solves problems, sorry. 570 00:28:25,780 --> 00:28:25,930 Yeah. 571 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,460 Solves problems for a particular group of people through the 572 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:28,150 products that they sell. 573 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,040 So that could be a boxing brand or a brand of high-end tools for dentists, right? 574 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,520 Doesn't matter. 575 00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:38,370 And branding is how you make those people feel. 576 00:28:39,850 --> 00:28:41,260 And marketing is how you tell 'em about it. 577 00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:48,285 So if people want to talk about brand, there's several lines you can go down. 578 00:28:48,545 --> 00:28:50,235 You can go down the business side. 579 00:28:50,285 --> 00:28:52,465 So we can talk about when they're building the brand, they're going to 580 00:28:52,465 --> 00:28:55,535 need to think about, and this is one of the key things I see people messing up. 581 00:28:55,935 --> 00:28:58,875 They don't properly calculate their unit economics on their actual products. 582 00:29:00,095 --> 00:29:01,845 And then they wonder why they're a few months in and 583 00:29:01,845 --> 00:29:03,005 they run into cashflow problems. 584 00:29:03,195 --> 00:29:04,585 So you're going to learn about that in the book. 585 00:29:04,615 --> 00:29:07,835 You're going to learn about the business side of understanding how 586 00:29:07,835 --> 00:29:12,450 this whole thing's going to actually work from All the way from sourcing 587 00:29:12,450 --> 00:29:15,210 your products and understanding if this stacks up and you can make money out 588 00:29:15,210 --> 00:29:20,570 of this, right the way into the whole, the overarching value of the business 589 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,480 and understanding what it is that's going to make your business valuable. 590 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:27,920 And understanding your growth and your profitability and all that good stuff. 591 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,630 And then we've got the more branding side of it. 592 00:29:31,810 --> 00:29:32,680 The emotional part. 593 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,220 How we're going to make our brand appeal to people and make it connect 594 00:29:36,220 --> 00:29:39,350 to people and make them want to love our brand and keep coming back to us. 595 00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:42,570 And then we've got the marketing side, how we're going to tell people about it. 596 00:29:43,310 --> 00:29:48,330 So the book kind of ties together all those three threads, if you like, 597 00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:53,800 at every stage from ideation through to developing your first product, 598 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,840 launching your product, launching more products, scaling your business. 599 00:29:58,215 --> 00:29:59,395 And then getting it ready to sell. 600 00:29:59,975 --> 00:30:00,275 Matt Edmundson: Love it. 601 00:30:00,275 --> 00:30:03,605 And I love the simplicity of it in terms of branding is how people are gonna feel. 602 00:30:03,605 --> 00:30:05,315 Marketing is telling them about it. 603 00:30:05,375 --> 00:30:07,050 And I love the simple definition. 604 00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:12,030 I'm curious, I dunno if you remember the lady that declined you to come on 605 00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:15,300 her podcast, what was her definition and how is it different to yours? 606 00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:18,680 Ben Leonard: We didn't really get into much of a back and forth about 607 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,030 it, but she basically made the point that my definition of a brand being a 608 00:30:23,030 --> 00:30:25,420 group of products that solves problems for a particular group of people 609 00:30:26,060 --> 00:30:30,920 was wrong because it didn't have to be a physical product or a service. 610 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,790 It could be related to, for instance, a charity for argument's sake. 611 00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:38,100 And to which I would say I don't particularly disagree with you, 612 00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:42,250 but I'm framing this in the context of consumer products brands. 613 00:30:42,555 --> 00:30:42,975 Matt Edmundson: Yes. 614 00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:46,240 Ben Leonard: The it was a bit bizarre, I think that she, the way 615 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,440 she ran her podcast was she wanted people to come on and agree with her. 616 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:50,010 And that was that. 617 00:30:50,790 --> 00:30:51,350 So there we are. 618 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,240 Matt Edmundson: and you love those kind of podcasts where all the guests are 619 00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:57,970 the same and every bit of information is the same, but listening to it, 620 00:30:58,670 --> 00:31:01,970 in some respects charities exist to solve problems for a specific group of 621 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,880 Ben Leonard: Yeah, precisely. 622 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:04,460 Yeah, they do. 623 00:31:04,530 --> 00:31:05,180 Exactly. 624 00:31:05,310 --> 00:31:08,330 The World Wildlife Fund exists to solve problems related to environmental 625 00:31:08,330 --> 00:31:12,720 conservation for A, humanity, but B, people who care about that type of thing. 626 00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:13,120 Yeah. 627 00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:14,810 So it does fit. 628 00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:16,740 Matt Edmundson: interesting. 629 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,970 What has been some of the most surprising feedback you've had since 630 00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:26,150 the book has launched a few months ago? 631 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,650 Ben Leonard: Other than Ben, there's a typo on page 234. 632 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,110 Matt Edmundson: Let's blame the editor. 633 00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:32,630 Ben Leonard: yeah, absolutely. 634 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:33,400 That's what I'll do. 635 00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:35,600 Mostly just people have liked it, which is great. 636 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:37,880 I just would love more people to read it. 637 00:31:38,010 --> 00:31:41,920 So just trying to spread the word really because I think that it's proud of it. 638 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,620 It's a valuable book. 639 00:31:42,620 --> 00:31:45,270 I think that people, whether they're just starting or they're quite experienced 640 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:46,360 we'll take something away from it. 641 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,130 And my intention is that. 642 00:31:47,735 --> 00:31:50,565 Yeah, you might read it cover to cover the first time, but then I want it to be 643 00:31:50,565 --> 00:31:53,245 a book that will get really worn out and battered, because it's going to be on your 644 00:31:53,245 --> 00:31:56,235 shelf, or on your desk, and you're going to refer back to it quite frequently. 645 00:31:56,855 --> 00:31:58,045 Just specific little bits. 646 00:31:58,725 --> 00:32:02,970 I think the most surprising feedback has been when There's been a couple 647 00:32:02,970 --> 00:32:06,440 of people in my network who are actually very experienced at doing 648 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,320 pretty astronomical numbers and they've come back and said, actually, 649 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:10,430 I really like what you said here. 650 00:32:10,430 --> 00:32:14,140 We've just passed that on to my CMO and we're actually going to be doing that. 651 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,170 Wow, holy cow. 652 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,070 That's pretty cool. 653 00:32:16,125 --> 00:32:17,075 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, 654 00:32:17,505 --> 00:32:22,315 Ben Leonard: Yeah something funny did happen actually this was pretty hilarious. 655 00:32:22,915 --> 00:32:25,415 So the book came out at the start of October, at the end of October 656 00:32:25,635 --> 00:32:30,175 Stephen Bartlett was speaking in Aberdeen at the music hall. 657 00:32:30,820 --> 00:32:33,460 1500 people paid well over 100 quid to go and see him, 658 00:32:33,725 --> 00:32:34,065 Matt Edmundson: yeah, 659 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:37,310 Ben Leonard: and I had managed to blag my way through the organisers 660 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,960 into being the support act, so I got 15 minutes before he came on. 661 00:32:41,245 --> 00:32:41,915 Matt Edmundson: oh well done, 662 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:43,090 Ben Leonard: Thanks, 663 00:32:43,235 --> 00:32:44,935 Matt Edmundson: a pretty impressive thing to do, I'm not gonna 664 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,790 Ben Leonard: It was pretty mental and so afterwards, went off stage, and I 665 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:49,870 managed to get 10 minutes with him. 666 00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:53,600 One of the brands that I co own is a boxing brand, so I'd made some custom 667 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,950 boxing gloves for him, and I gave him a copy of my book, and this was hilarious. 668 00:32:59,675 --> 00:33:01,255 He goes, would you sign it for me? 669 00:33:02,915 --> 00:33:06,495 Bearing in mind, this is Stephen Barclay, who is now an A list celebrity, and 670 00:33:06,495 --> 00:33:08,795 there's me, and I'm like don't have a pen. 671 00:33:09,095 --> 00:33:11,185 And he goes don't worry, I've got one. 672 00:33:11,185 --> 00:33:13,355 He pulls out a sharpie and gets me to sign it. 673 00:33:13,865 --> 00:33:14,645 That was pretty funny. 674 00:33:15,310 --> 00:33:16,310 Matt Edmundson: that's quite incredible. 675 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,150 Yeah, I like that. 676 00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:21,400 Steve Bob, there's a friend of mine actually called Andy Kent, and his, he did 677 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,300 this thing, he's been doing it for years. 678 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,380 Whenever he sees someone famous, he just goes up to them and gives them 679 00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:30,790 his autograph, and he gets someone to take a picture of it whilst it happens, 680 00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:34,390 and just the look on the celebrity's faces, it's just What's going on here? 681 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:35,260 It's 682 00:33:35,420 --> 00:33:36,370 Ben Leonard: is very funny. 683 00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:38,960 Matt Edmundson: He's just done it with some crazy 684 00:33:39,150 --> 00:33:39,590 Ben Leonard: start doing that. 685 00:33:39,770 --> 00:33:41,430 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, here's my autograph. 686 00:33:43,150 --> 00:33:45,260 I love that though, you had custom boxing gloves made and 687 00:33:45,270 --> 00:33:46,440 gave them a copy of your book. 688 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,200 There's a guy, a friend of mine actually, called Ram Gidoomal. 689 00:33:49,585 --> 00:33:50,275 He's CBE. 690 00:33:50,295 --> 00:33:55,325 He ran several years ago to be the mayor of London and he's written a book 691 00:33:55,375 --> 00:33:59,155 called, I think it's called The Silk Road, about his sort of journey from 692 00:33:59,765 --> 00:34:04,285 from India through to Kenya to being an Indian immigrant in the UK and what that 693 00:34:04,285 --> 00:34:08,825 was like and then how they built this 500, I think it was like half a billion 694 00:34:08,825 --> 00:34:11,705 dollar empire, I don't know, it was massive, it was worth a lot of money. 695 00:34:12,585 --> 00:34:16,415 How the family went from this corner shop to this massive thing and he sent 696 00:34:16,415 --> 00:34:19,265 me a Photo a couple of months ago. 697 00:34:19,295 --> 00:34:27,335 He just sent it to me on whatsapp and it basically he was in New York and The 698 00:34:27,335 --> 00:34:31,095 mayor of New York his name has totally slipped my mind the mayor of New York 699 00:34:31,095 --> 00:34:34,625 was at the same event and so Rams like Quick, give me a copy of the book and 700 00:34:34,625 --> 00:34:36,155 he goes over to the mayor of New York. 701 00:34:36,155 --> 00:34:37,785 He gives the mayor his book. 702 00:34:38,255 --> 00:34:41,945 Do you mind if we take a photo, because Ram's just like this, and he had somebody 703 00:34:41,945 --> 00:34:44,895 take a photo and of course then it's all over the everything, now the Mayor of New 704 00:34:44,895 --> 00:34:48,615 York has read Ram's book, so I thought, so you've reminded me of that story. 705 00:34:48,715 --> 00:34:51,925 Here Stephen, have a copy of this book which is great oh well done, that's 706 00:34:52,285 --> 00:34:54,835 no mean feat getting on the stage I don't think, with someone like Steve 707 00:34:54,845 --> 00:34:56,325 Bartlett, that's quite impressive. 708 00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:57,460 Ben Leonard: Yeah, 709 00:34:57,495 --> 00:34:58,915 Matt Edmundson: write a book on how you did that, ha, 710 00:34:59,565 --> 00:35:00,435 Ben Leonard: I just asked, 711 00:35:01,395 --> 00:35:02,215 Matt Edmundson: oh it's a short book, 712 00:35:02,215 --> 00:35:04,405 Ben Leonard: what, actually, it's funny, if you watch, I don't, I stopped 713 00:35:04,435 --> 00:35:06,155 watching Dragons Den for a while, but I've started watching it again 714 00:35:06,195 --> 00:35:07,135 because it's quite good entertainment. 715 00:35:07,445 --> 00:35:10,655 And there was an episode a few weeks ago, these ladies, they have a business, 716 00:35:10,735 --> 00:35:14,395 they produce artificial diamonds, and they managed to get Steve Bartlett to 717 00:35:14,395 --> 00:35:15,985 invest quarter of a million for 3%. 718 00:35:16,965 --> 00:35:20,085 And during their pitch, they were 3%, yeah, bananas, right? 719 00:35:20,315 --> 00:35:20,935 Matt Edmundson: Wowsers. 720 00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:24,260 Ben Leonard: But I guess that's the diamond industry although the economics 721 00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:25,770 of the diamond industry are up for debate. 722 00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:30,100 But anyway, during their pitch, they said that Meghan Markle wore their diamonds. 723 00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:32,730 And and he said Stephen Barlow said, how did you manage to 724 00:35:32,730 --> 00:35:33,980 get her to wear your diamonds? 725 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,280 And they said, oh, we just asked. 726 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:35,870 Cold email. 727 00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:37,720 And he loved it. 728 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,910 And that's a really important thing, lesson, I think, that if 729 00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:41,800 you don't ask, you don't get. 730 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:42,570 So just ask. 731 00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:44,460 Worst that happens is somebody says no. 732 00:35:45,245 --> 00:35:45,885 Matt Edmundson: It's very true. 733 00:35:46,455 --> 00:35:47,425 The power of asking. 734 00:35:47,865 --> 00:35:50,655 You have not because you ask not is that old famous wisdom, isn't it? 735 00:35:50,655 --> 00:35:51,845 And it's so so true. 736 00:35:51,965 --> 00:35:52,705 So so true. 737 00:35:53,185 --> 00:35:57,055 Listen, I've got one more question for you Ben, as I'm aware of time and I'm 738 00:35:57,055 --> 00:35:58,425 gonna go straight to the back of the book. 739 00:35:59,155 --> 00:36:05,605 And the very last words you wrote were on the Acknowledgements page, Thanks To, and 740 00:36:05,605 --> 00:36:09,685 there's a whole bunch of people on that list, Stephen Butler being one of them. 741 00:36:10,335 --> 00:36:15,025 And then you said, No thanks to Fake Guru's Porsche Guy. 742 00:36:16,740 --> 00:36:18,070 Tell me about Porsche guy. 743 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,670 Ben Leonard: You're the first person that's asked me this. 744 00:36:21,390 --> 00:36:23,550 I would love to tell you about Porsche guys, so I will. 745 00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:27,570 It was twenty I think it was about 2018. 746 00:36:28,175 --> 00:36:32,035 So I still own my first brand and I went on my mate's stag do. 747 00:36:32,785 --> 00:36:35,215 And my mate, he lives in Edinburgh. 748 00:36:35,425 --> 00:36:38,845 And there's a lot of kind of bankery types that he's become friends with. 749 00:36:39,435 --> 00:36:42,095 And so one of these bankery types turns up at the stag do. 750 00:36:42,095 --> 00:36:42,715 It is Porsche. 751 00:36:42,805 --> 00:36:44,955 And I turned up in my VW Polo. 752 00:36:45,975 --> 00:36:50,515 And over the course of the weekend, he, He asked me what I do, and I said, I 753 00:36:50,515 --> 00:36:52,725 think I still work at my day job at the time, so I mentioned what my day job 754 00:36:52,725 --> 00:36:56,535 was, and I said, I'm doing this fitness brand thing, and he looks down his nose 755 00:36:56,535 --> 00:37:01,425 at me, and he says, so basically, you flock skipping ropes on the internet, 756 00:37:05,785 --> 00:37:05,935 and 757 00:37:06,005 --> 00:37:06,485 Matt Edmundson: Wow 758 00:37:06,605 --> 00:37:10,675 Ben Leonard: I sold the business I think I texted my mate, I didn't have Porsche 759 00:37:10,675 --> 00:37:13,505 guy's details, but I texted my mate and said tell your mate with the Porsche that 760 00:37:13,505 --> 00:37:18,055 I just sold my business for and then I put in quite a lot of money and yeah. 761 00:37:18,055 --> 00:37:21,215 So I put Porsche guy on the no thanks page. 762 00:37:24,005 --> 00:37:24,575 Matt Edmundson: Very good. 763 00:37:24,735 --> 00:37:25,395 Very good. 764 00:37:26,035 --> 00:37:29,435 What a great story and I would love to have seen his face 765 00:37:29,435 --> 00:37:30,585 when he got that text message. 766 00:37:30,585 --> 00:37:32,275 That would have been, that would have been brilliant. 767 00:37:33,335 --> 00:37:37,105 Ben, listen, thanks for coming on man and love chatting to you about 768 00:37:37,105 --> 00:37:40,165 the book and obviously all the best with it and what's going on with it. 769 00:37:40,165 --> 00:37:43,145 If people want to buy the book, if they want to find out more about 770 00:37:43,145 --> 00:37:44,265 you, what's the best way to do that? 771 00:37:44,825 --> 00:37:48,065 Ben Leonard: Best thing to do is search on Amazon for quit stalling and build 772 00:37:48,065 --> 00:37:49,935 your brand or just my name, Ben Leonard. 773 00:37:49,995 --> 00:37:50,815 You'll find the book on there. 774 00:37:51,355 --> 00:37:53,685 And then in terms of, getting in touch and if you want any help with 775 00:37:53,685 --> 00:37:57,395 anything I'm all over social, my handle's benleonardpro, I'm on LinkedIn. 776 00:37:57,995 --> 00:37:59,335 If you want to sell your business, ecombrokers. 777 00:37:59,335 --> 00:37:59,365 co. 778 00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:03,315 uk and yeah I'm here to help them. 779 00:38:03,365 --> 00:38:05,985 Very much keen to hear from other eCommerce entrepreneurs. 780 00:38:06,945 --> 00:38:08,005 Matt Edmundson: Absolutely, brilliant. 781 00:38:08,305 --> 00:38:12,865 We will of course put all of those links in the show notes which you 782 00:38:12,865 --> 00:38:16,775 can get along with the transcript for free on the website ecommercepodcast. 783 00:38:16,775 --> 00:38:19,225 net or of course it'll be coming to your inbox if you sign up to the 784 00:38:19,225 --> 00:38:20,595 newsletter which I mentioned earlier. 785 00:38:21,025 --> 00:38:23,775 Listen Ben, loved it man, it's been great having you back on the show. 786 00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:28,330 Love the stories, love the book, think it's such a great thing you've done and 787 00:38:28,410 --> 00:38:32,060 I, all the best man with that and I wish you all the success and seriously if you 788 00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:34,870 listen to the podcast, go out and buy Ben's book, you definitely won't regret 789 00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:36,310 it if you're involved in eCommerce. 790 00:38:36,310 --> 00:38:36,890 It's a great book. 791 00:38:38,165 --> 00:38:38,395 Ben Leonard: Thanks, Matt. 792 00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:41,400 Matt Edmundson: Huge thanks to Ben again for joining me today. 793 00:38:41,665 --> 00:38:45,685 And also a big shout out to the sponsor of this show, eCommerce Cohort. 794 00:38:45,875 --> 00:38:48,445 If you're not yet a member or if you want to find out more about what this is 795 00:38:48,445 --> 00:38:49,635 all about, just go to eCommerceCohort. 796 00:38:50,415 --> 00:38:52,395 com, enough said, as they say. 797 00:38:52,645 --> 00:38:55,825 Now be sure to follow the eCommerce Podcast wherever you get your podcasts 798 00:38:55,835 --> 00:38:59,785 from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up and I 799 00:38:59,815 --> 00:39:01,655 don't want you to miss any of them. 800 00:39:02,045 --> 00:39:06,660 And in case no one has told you yet today, let me be the first, you are awesome. 801 00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:08,090 Yes, you are created awesome. 802 00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:10,270 It's just a burden you have to bear. 803 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:11,290 Ben's got to bear it. 804 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,230 I've got to bear it. 805 00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:13,720 You've got to bear it as well. 806 00:39:13,770 --> 00:39:17,040 Now, the eCommerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 807 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,590 You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 808 00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:24,580 The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak. 809 00:39:24,830 --> 00:39:27,000 Our theme music was written by Josh Edmundson. 810 00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:29,980 And as I mentioned, the transcript, the show notes, they're all 811 00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:31,470 available on the website. 812 00:39:32,645 --> 00:39:33,685 ecommercepodcast. 813 00:39:34,035 --> 00:39:34,555 net. 814 00:39:34,965 --> 00:39:36,175 That's it from me. 815 00:39:36,195 --> 00:39:37,145 That's it from Ben. 816 00:39:37,145 --> 00:39:39,075 Thank you so much for joining us. 817 00:39:39,075 --> 00:39:40,865 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 818 00:39:41,265 --> 00:39:42,175 I'll see you next time.