Borderland.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

Today Taylor Bodine, lead trail reviewer of Believe in the Run, is with me again, going through hoka.

HOKA is an extremely important brand to ultra trail running, to trail running in general.

As you'll hear Taylor call out, it's the first brand that was born in this like boom of trail running.

So it's been with us, you know, since Born to Run came out.

Contrast that with Born to Run, ushering in the minimalist approach.

HOKA ushered in this maximalist approach and as they refine their product over the years, it has just dominated shoe sales within our great sport.

So we do the deep dive into the whole thing.

We look at the whole portfolio dating back to 09, all the way through present, and talk a little bit about the future, a little bit about the team.

But all in all, we're just really impressed with hoka.

We know we're not the only ones, but Taylor Bodine brings an encyclopedic insight into the shoe technology, into the history of the brand.

And this is just a fantastic discussion.

If you're looking for a 100 miler, look no further than Devil's Gulch 100 Miler in Wenatchee, Washington.

They have half marathon, 50 miler and 100 miler.

The 100 miler is a full loop now, no longer just two 50 mile loops.

I was there last year, made a video of it.

Look in the show notes for that video.

I'm a big fan of Katie Warren and Porter Bratton who I've talked with.

There's a third owner as well.

Really, really great race and I'm stoked to be able to tell you more about it.

They're you're going to hear about them at the beginning of every episode for this month.

It's an incredible familial feel.

If you love sort of classic americana within the 100 mile scene.

This is a race that is, that is for you.

I mean, three of 21 people finished it the first year.

They owned it the second year.

The percentage was a little bit better than that.

It's a hot race, it's a hard race, but I think it's a great race and I hope to be there this year.

I'm still working out the details, but it's in July.

So if you're on the hunt for a hard hundred miler, a Hard Rock esque in terms of difficulty, this is the one for you.

So check it out in the show notes.

I hope that you'll do it.

You'll go there.

You'll kind of join the Evergreen Trail family.

They've got a bunch of races.

This is their only 100 miler, and I think it's their only 50 miler as well.

Well, great organization, great race.

Check it out.

All right, here's my discussion about HOKA with my good friend Taylor Bodine, lead trail reviewer.

Believe.

It'S too damn.

It's too damn cold to run.

It's too damn cold to.

My guest today.

Needs no introduction.

He's been with me a few times and.

And you all seem to really love these episodes, and I would like to say that I was right, that, you know, that you wanted gear discussions, but I didn't know how good they could possibly be because I'm one who loves the deep dive, loves to ask nuanced questions.

I.

I go down tangents that sometimes are irrelevant and.

And it seems like Taylor can always go there with me.

And so today we're going to be talking hoka.

Taylor, before we go to hoka, though, thank you for being here.

Welcome.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

I'm excited for this conversation.

It's in terms of gear and even, like, bridging culture, like, HOKA is the conversation.

It's a big conversation in a lot of ways.

So, yeah, I'm excited about this one and all of our conversations.

I agree.

I'm the nerd, too, and I like going down all the nuances, but I can also track with.

Yeah.

All the side tangents and.

Yeah.

Well, I like what you said.

Yeah.

This is going to be the episode that sort of bridges all of our discussions about heritage and legacy brands and brings us to modern times.

You know, last time, my last gear episode was Thomas Newburger, who you connected me with.

I Believe in the Run.

You're at Believe in the Run, lead trail reviewer.

He's the founder of Believe in the Run because we did Adidas and Versus Puma.

That was a really interesting story.

And that kind of marked the end of heritage legacy.

And I love heritage legacy.

And I think it's fascinating when, like, a massive company like Adidas or Puma or Brooks or anybody has to sort of pivot because it's.

There's probably a lot of bureaucracy when they want to do something and they want to change something like that, the ghost or anything like that.

Like, you've got to go through a lot of layers and you change really slowly, and that's the Hard thing of an established company, but in impressive that they've all been doing it.

But now we're in Hoka talking Hoka.

And what's crazy about Hoka is that it's another French company.

I had no idea until I started preparing for this episode that it's another company that has Annecy France.

I feel like I've been talking about Annecy France so many times.

So let's, let's go there.

We're.

We're now bridging from heritage legacy into modern times, using HOKA as the vehicle.

Annecy France.

Where did they start?

How did they start?

Why?

Yeah, why'd they start?

I mean, well, just to like step back into a comment you said of like even the bureaucracy within industry, these big brands and just the timelines they have to face.

And I think Hoka was the one that really kind of set the fire of like these timelines need to get.

Yeah.

We need to either catch up, we need to expand our thoughts.

And that's what HOKA did for the industry.

Yeah.

And even some other brands that I've worked with, even like testing prototypes and whatnot.

Of like, they have a great shoe, like there's a shoe that I've been testing that's probably the best carbon plated trail racer that I've ever put on.

But because of the bureaucracy of it, it would take two years to make any small twinge.

Right.

And so.

But they're not even one of those big heritage brands.

They're a big brand, don't get me wrong.

Outdoor brand, but not one of those huge heritage brands.

So yeah, when we step into Hoka, that's.

It's a newer brand.

They're huge, they're everywhere.

So that might be a surprise to consumers that like mid 2000s, mid to late 2000s, like 2009.

2000.

Somewhere in there is when they took off and got started.

And the reason why it's all connected to Annecy is because the founders came from within.

Within Solomon.

And so, yeah, so there's this.

And this is a typical thing within the industry.

There's so much cross pollination.

Pollination of.

Because there's.

It's a fluid market.

Everybody needs a job.

Right.

And everybody's ideas are a little bit different.

And we're all trying to basically say solve the same problem of creating an experience for the runner.

And so the experience that these two founders.

So Jean Luc Dejard and.

Really Jean Luc dejard and.

But he was working with Jean Marc Bjean.

Exactly.

Okay.

Yeah.

So Jean Luc dejard.

And why am I blanking on his name?

I pulled up.

Can you give me the other?

Yeah, I can.

I wish I could do it quickly, but I don't mind doing a little research on my own.

Jamie from the Joe Rogan show.

Hoka.

But either way, while you're doing that, those two.

And I'm.

I'm kind of embarrassed forgetting his name right now.

No, you're safe here.

Nico Mermoud.

There it is.

Yeah.

So Nico and Jean Luc, they were both at Solomon.

They had this experience at a race where they.

They both have the same experience in the same race where they.

They wanted better downhill feel.

Downhill is what they were focusing on.

They needed more cushion.

They wanted the ride to just roll and just be able to go downhill smoother and feel good.

And so, I mean, again with Salomon, we had that conversation about they came from a ski background.

And so this is around the time where those skis were also being curved on either side.

And so there's a lot.

I mean, they were getting fat.

What a great.

That's amazing.

Skis were getting absurdly fat.

And so then.

So are shoes now.

Yeah.

And then, so, yeah, so big fat powder skis to cruise over anything.

And then that curved kind of architecture of we're seeing in a lot of shoes, it was also in some skis you could ride both ways really comfortably.

And so there's a lot of that design influence that came over to hoka.

So they, they, again, they knew they wanted this certain experience, and so their shoe design came from this experience they wanted.

And so that's what made them very countercultural at the time, because that's when a lot of the minimalist movement was in its heyday.

Yeah.

I mean, 2009, 2010.

That's when Chris McDougal's Born to Run came out.

So it was like a race in either direction.

Race to the extremes.

Totally.

And that's when like Ultra became huge.

During that time, New Balance had some great shoes.

Vibram had the, you know, the five finger and the trail glove.

And there was all these.

Everybody was wearing them to the gym, to the grocery store, out on runs.

And then you have HOKA coming in, and it's the only shoe that has more than like, I mean, to say like 30 millimeters now is a very moderate stack shoe.

But they were around that range with the first shoe, the Mafate, but that was coming from like 10 millimeters.

So tripling the size of shoes just height wise.

And then they knew they needed to solve for the stability issue.

So they went wider too.

Yeah.

And so higher.

Was there innovation just in how much foam or was there innovation in the foam itself as well?

So there's two main parts to their innovation.

How high the foam was for the cushioning?

Yeah, I'm gonna say three.

So they're high.

How high they were for the cushioning, they brought in the shoe outsole.

So let me just grab one real quick.

Yeah, I'll just grab their Tecton X.

So.

So this is their race day model.

This is the Tecton X3 newly released awesome shoe in a lot of ways.

We'll talk about it, I'm sure.

But they, they went higher with the stack.

Yep, that was one thing.

Wider with the outsole.

Because if you go higher, you need to solve for stability.

But the reason why this was innovative is because the stability issue had been solved mostly by putting different pieces of either plastic or different densities of foam to firm up certain parts of the foot so that it won't cave in or go this way or that.

But this, they mostly had the same density.

No other materials really inside there.

But they went wider to solve for the stability issue.

So that's like part two.

But then they were also the first to really go hard and hard in the paint for that Curved.

That curved.

What word am I looking for?

Just the curved shape.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the rocker.

Yeah.

And so when you look at the shoe, for those who don't know a rocker, it's going to have it start curving up toward the front.

And a lot of Hoka shoes also have a gentle curve toward the back too.

So you get really grounded.

They weren't the first to bring it to trail, but they made it more extreme.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so, and all of their shoes, even their lowest stack shoes like the Zinal, is going to have some sort of rocker esque profile.

And so they were the first to really capitalize on that full rocker sensation.

They call it an early stage meta rocker.

And so early stage means it's just happening earlier in your foot.

So if you land midfoot or even heel, that's why they rockered it toward the heel a little bit.

And you're rolling forward.

It's that action of really kind of catapulting your toe.

Yeah.

And so a lot of the even rockered shoes like we talked about, the Brooks Cascadia had a little bit of a rocker, but that came a little toward the end of the toe.

And so you weren't getting as much of like a responsive Action.

And with the full rocker, the earlier stage is catching that rounded edge a little earlier.

And so it's just going to be a smoother transition for most cases.

And so they're really the first to.

Yeah.

Bring high stack, wider profile, get that rocker going.

And that's pervasive through basically all of their designs.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

One thought on also on early days, Hoka, it's.

It's important to know that it used to be Hoka one one, right?

Yeah.

I had no idea how to say that.

Probably everyone in the world, unless I guess you were Maui, who I guess was a Maori and word would have thought Hoka one one.

Which Hoka one one kind of sounded cool.

I think I only ever really said it in my head anyway.

But one time I was, I was running Speedgoat and the race and Carl was introducing, you know, he wanted to say special thanks to my title sponsor, Hoka one one.

And everyone looks around, you know, hundreds of people like that's how you say that.

We had no idea.

So I think, I mean it was smart to.

Smart to remove it just from a branding standpoint because now it's a four letter word like Nike and all that.

But you know, its origins are a bit more complex.

Yeah.

And so just so you know, like the race that Jean Luc and Nico were running was in that Polynesian island and that's really this experience together and there's a great race down there.

I don't.

I was talking with Nico at Speedgoat just last year.

He was telling me all about this race and one of his like top three favorite places to run like in the whole world.

And I can imagine he's been all over the world and so that's where that the name came from.

Wow.

Do you know if they were in any way, were they unhappy at Solomon?

Was this a reaction to Solomon or was this just an idea they had?

I don't get the sense, and I say this because I'd like to hear it from them.

Right.

Of like I don't get the sense that they were unhappy.

I think they had this super innovative idea and it was one countercultural.

Yeah.

To the landscape of the industry then.

And even when we think about Salomon these days of like their ethos is having that ground feel they have.

They have the ground feel.

They have the connection.

Not necessarily no stack or you know, barefoot running, but they have that connection to the ground and they're, they're always going to have that.

Even with some of their newer shoes, their High stack shoes.

They.

Yeah, that's like the foremost thing.

You still want that connection.

And that wasn't necessarily the case with the design that these guys came up with.

And so I think, I think it was a friendly departure.

I know it was probably kind of like a.

Probably like a good look.

Like.

Right.

Where else do you see this?

That's a crazy idea.

But look whether surprising that it worked.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, and I mean going from.

And we've talked about this too, of like the early to mid 2000s is really when trail running as a sport started to take off.

Yeah.

And there was like true trail running shoes.

HOKA was like the first true trail running brand.

That.

And so that's just something to keep in mind as we have this conversation of like their first two shoes were the Mafate.

Yep.

And one of their next shoes was the Speed Goat.

And so two heavily influential trail running shoes.

And they did start coming out with some road versions of the Mafate and stuff like that that have now morphed into the Clifton.

All that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

But yeah, they're.

They are committed.

They started in trail and they're absolutely committed to trail.

And so that's a unique kind of jump off point for a brand like hoka.

I mean it's hard to have this discussion on some level without bringing up Ultra because there was maybe a year or two behind an interest.

They were the value proposition.

And as we're.

As I'm thinking, I'm just thinking out loud, they're the barefoot running meets hoka.

Like they're the sustainable barefoot run shoe because you get the zero drop.

But even more, I mean.

And I think we can do a great.

Have a really fascinating episode about Ultra.

But it's just to say similar time period, two brands that have skyrocketed and grown with the industry and two very different value propositions.

And so it's just interesting to see that must have been very challenging.

And be interesting to hear some internal conversations at Salomon at the time.

Like, how do we break through?

These guys are taking so much market share.

But now hoka, in terms of market share, I mean off the top of your head, do you know their shoe counts at some of those races that you've seen?

Shoe counts.

Yeah.

And so like at Western states and utmb, a lot of brands and Ultra is one of them that does a shoe count of all the different brands.

And so there's.

It used to be.

I'm gonna go.

Used to be just to honor Altra it used to be like 30.

Around the 30% was ultra.

And they've done a flip now.

Okay.

Where 30 to 35%, depending on race, is hoka.

And then anywhere between like 5 and 10% is typically ultra.

Wow.

And so.

And to be honest, like, that's still a little bit surprise to me.

Maybe just being like always on the leading edge, getting all the brand new shoes, you know, of like, Ultra's kind of maintained a certain course and just recently have been like, whoa, we need to do something here to kind of continue our trajectory at all.

Yeah.

But HOKA has been.

They've been a steady.

A steady line.

I mean, they've been an exponential line of growth, actually.

Right.

Even this steady exponential line of growth.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And so.

And that's hard to compete with.

Yeah.

And I mean, there's a lot of good reasons for that.

I know Ultra is not for everybody.

Hoka's not for everybody.

But for.

In terms of market share, HOKA is kind of.

They aren't kind of.

They are the commanding leader in trail right now.

Yeah.

Is anybody on their heels, so to speak?

I mean, is anybody like threatening to, to take them off the throne?

Not in the foreseeable future.

I think where we're going with these conversations that there's going to be a lot of those 1%, 2% coming up.

Right.

Like, we have the normal.

We have Nordo, There's a bunch of shoe brands that are going to be starting to pull from there because they're offering also a unique experience.

But I don't, I don't see that HOKA is going to be.

They can't be really competed with with a singular other brand.

Yeah.

Because you would have to combine the next, like leading four to six brands before you equal some sort of percentage.

Wow.

There.

And when you're talking about shoe count at races and when I'm just going to go here with it of like, that's when we're just talking about consumers buying and wearing their shoes on race day, which says a lot.

But also HOKA has been one who has steadily increased their, their presence in the trail running community, not just on race day, but all throughout.

And so that is a huge move.

A huge move for them to.

They'll always be relevant because of that as long as they continue to invest in the trail running community.

And like, here, I'll show you my sweatshirt a little bit.

Is the HOKA Trail Collective, which is part of what I was.

I was a part of this last summer and it was mostly aimed at new runners, either trail running runners who have never been in the trail space at all, or brand new runners and bringing them to trail, giving them the experience of.

The full experience of.

Here's all our HOKA gear for one and here's the support to train you towards some of these races.

And so they.

We started at Speedgoat.

The most of the group just did their big race and javelina and so given them the whole experience and if they're going to continue doing stuff like that and bringing in people from all corners of like what a model, right?

Of investing in the community and be having great products out there.

Yeah.

And so I think that's probably a great segue into this point.

Started in 2009, sold to Decker in 2013, only four years later where they snap, you snatched up.

I mean, obviously they saw something that the niche that they were carving out, the market share that they were getting in a massive, I don't know, conglomerate.

I don't know how you want a word.

Decker, someone who absorbs other brands into their ecosystem and grows them exponentially with massive investment.

So to be able to even invest in initiatives like that with how much you're growing, I think they grow too much to be able to reinvest on that level.

So they have to still, I think they still having to bring capital in and so they've got a lot of capital behind them.

With Decker, it sounds like that they can continue to do initiatives like this because they're bringing more people, they're creating new customers.

They're saying, we're not going to go take people from Nike, we're not going to take people from Ultra.

We're going to create new people in this space.

And from day one, there'll be HOKA people.

That takes a lot of money.

Yeah, totally.

And I mean with the whole just lifestyle taking off too.

And HOKA has been really.

They've gotten really far into lifestyle of not just having shoes for the nurses, the teachers, the people who are on their feet.

They've done really good at getting into that market, but also just lifestyle in terms of lifestyle wearing around.

Like it's the cool thing if you can get a white pair of Cliftons, like that's still a cool thing.

And then they continue.

Yeah, they're just, they're just able to start branching into all these other spaces where a brand really hasn't in the past been able to without being one of those huge heritage brands.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, they're becoming that for sure.

Yeah.

I've never Been accused of having fashion since the joke.

Always.

I mean, here, living in Paris, where you're in the forefront of fashion.

Oh, yeah.

My wife asked me if I like something, and I'm like, I'm not an early adopter.

I've never seen that before.

Therefore, I don't like it because I haven't seen it.

So I'm.

I'm a late adopter on fashion.

So this.

So keep that in mind as I say this next thing.

The first time I saw someone wearing Hoka wearing trail shoes as a fashion decision was a pair of Hokas.

My buddy Asher, he's way into Japanese fashion, and so he wore.

And he's not a trail runner.

Not a runner of any kind.

And he shows up to.

We did a lot of businesses together.

Shows up wearing these Hoka shoes.

I'm like, what are you doing wearing Hokas?

He's like, these.

There's a trail shoes?

He says, no, they're not.

You know, so to be able to break into that, I mean, even I think of, like, the brand sitting around making the decision, like, hey, we're gonna market toward fashion, and we're trail shoes.

Like, what an interesting decision to even make, because nothing happens by mistake.

Someone, you know, tested the waters on that.

Totally.

And.

And that's where, like, a brand like Hoka, because they are so large, they can make kind of the full deep.

Dive into that.

Yeah.

And invest into that.

Whereas some of these other brands that I've worked with, like I was saying I was testing a prototype, they're making the decision like, sorry, we have to put this on hold, because we're going to lifestyle right now.

And then that's a whole shift.

Right.

And so.

But, yeah, hoka, they're just kind of doing it all.

They're in.

They're in sport, they're in fashion, they're in life.

The way to do it, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Once I saw them at.

In Salt Lake City, I was in a Nordstrom rack.

This was several years ago.

And I see just some plain Hokas in there.

At a good deal.

My thing was like, oh, I'm stoked.

I'd love to get a pair of these.

This is cool.

I'm seeing shoe, and I think it was some road shoes.

But even by the fact that HOKA is in Nordstrom rack says something about the way that they went to market in several different ways.

Yeah.

And even being over at utmb, which, for those who don't know utmb, it's.

It's the marquee Event of the year.

Yeah, all brands go there and they bring people along.

Like, I was there with Salomon, but Hoka was.

They were.

They had some, like, influencers, those kind of people, but they mostly had, yeah.

Big investors like the Nordstrom Rack, those kind of people, because they're.

They're competing to get with Hoka.

And so, like, it's just.

Yeah, it's just crazy to me that a trail brand and most people would never know it as a trail brand.

That's right.

Like you said, it's just.

Yeah, they're making waves everywhere, which is super impressive.

Yeah.

Well, in 2000, maybe 11 or 12, a friend of mine.

Yeah, probably 12, my friend Mike, his dad had bought some Hokas and he wore them, you know, three or 400 miles.

His dad was a little bit older.

He liked them for his knees.

It was a really great fit for him.

But he's like, hey, these still have some life left in them.

Do you want to try them?

And he gave them to me and I ran in him once.

And it was just.

It was not the experience I was looking for.

Yeah, it felt fragile.

It felt a bit precarious.

And also the value proposition of more cushion wasn't on my radar.

It wasn't on my needs list.

Now it is, because I know it so well.

But I thought so I wore them once and I never put them back on, but of course I watched the brand grow.

So my question for you is, what was your first encounter with Hoka and what was your first impression?

Yeah, my first encounter was with their Challenger series, which is the road to trail version of them.

Okay.

And so.

So it had more.

I'm going to go back a little bit.

So they.

Their early investment was trail and they have continued.

I think they have the Mafate, they have the Speed Goat, they have basically all their trail lines.

They have the Stinson.

But then they went really heavy into road to get a road line through.

And so then the Challenger came on the market as being the connection between the two.

So it was more shaped like a Clifton than anything else.

And.

But then it had some tread.

It had a little bit of a wider profile.

And so that was my first experience with Hoka.

And it was different in the fact that it was higher stack and cushioned.

But it wasn't.

Yeah, it wasn't a special cushion.

Even at that time on the market.

Because at that time in the market when I experienced this was like the.

Maybe the fourth iteration of the shoe.

Third or fourth.

Somewhere in there, the compression Molded eva, which was a standard, still is basically a standard.

It's.

You just compress together all this material, and that's how you make the midsole.

But there was a lot of other shoes starting to come out that had these nitrogen infused, which is lighter area.

It's a different process of creating the midsole.

And it's lighter, airy.

The cushion feels different.

And so in contrast to that, it didn't necessarily feel special in terms of cushion, but the ride itself, the profile is what really sold me to it.

And so I like that.

And.

But when you say like you.

Your first experience was stepping in at three to 400 miles.

That's where HOKA has had some real challenges.

Because when you have so much material is going to deteriorate.

Deteriorate in a different way.

Interesting.

And so they're finally able to be able to solve for some of that.

But still, getting three to 400 miles out of any shoe is about the tipping point.

But if you get there with HOKA shoes because of how much material they have, the durability of that material was a big knock on them for a while.

And so I would say if that.

Is that your only experience with hoka.

Yeah, to this point.

Because then I became so loyal.

Let's see.

So that was my.

When I was wearing.

I was also wearing Cascadias.

And then.

Yep, it's very loyal to him.

And then I saw some solids.

They looked great.

I've recount this several times.

They didn't fit the way I needed them to, but they looked too good to let them pass them up.

So I ran in them for several races, several years, and then I moved into ultra because I.

I just felt like as a Utah and I needed to be.

If there's a marquee brand that started in Utah, I needed to put those on my feet.

So I ran those for about four or five years and then started running in Merrill's.

And now, now, now I'm.

I'm lost.

I don't.

I.

I'm on a journey to find my.

A shoe that looks good and fits right.

And I'm not gonna.

I'm not gonna compromise on either.

So I'm on the hunt right now for the perfect shoe for road and trail and all that to say HOKA just never ended up back on my feet.

I don't know what it was.

There was something that when I would go, when I was time to think of a new shoe, in fact, I would never leave a shoe because I disliked it.

I would I would just be drawn to a new shoe and go toward it.

And Hoka never.

Yeah, I was never probably the center of their target.

Yeah, I, yeah, I, I totally get that.

I would, I would say that if you want to try it out again, having that fresh foam underfoot, which is not a New Balance cover here, it's fresh.

Just having a fresh pair of hokas underfoot of like, you'll, you'll likely feel a.

Get a different experience.

And so like, can we do a little shoe deep dive here, please?

So, like, the speed goat is not necessarily what I would, based on what you're saying, not necessarily what I would recommend to you, but this is their most popular brand by far.

If you go to a trail race, most of the people we already said like 30%, 35% are going to have Hoka.

So most of the people you just see visually, you just scan the line.

Most people are going to have Hoka.

Almost all of those will be a Hoka speed goat.

Okay.

If you're like going from the 10%, the top, take the top 10% of the runners out because they're going to be in these, you know, highly responsive race day shoes mostly.

But most people are going to be in this speed goat.

This is the most recent speed goat.

Yeah.

What makes a speed goat a speed.

Goat and the reason why a speed goat, which is named after your fellow Utah Carl Meltzer.

And so what makes a speedgoat a speedgoat is that it does still have that higher stack cushion.

Right.

In today's terms, this is a moderately stacked shoe.

So it's somewhere in the kind of the high middle.

So it still has that cushion, still has that support by a wider profile, but it's not as wide as some of their other shoes.

It has a really consistent feel.

This midsole would probably feel really familiar to you with being that the Cascadia and what was it, the Salomon Sense ride that you were in for a long time.

That's right.

Yep.

So this is that it's an EVA material and this was switched this year to be a little more durable.

So it's not going to have a ton of character, which can be a good or a bad thing in the modern market.

Yeah.

But what makes this shoe different is that they have a really nice lockdown throughout.

So most high stack shoes wouldn't have such a nice lockdown on top.

So they have a really nice.

You're able to cinch up that mid foot.

It's a little more narrow toward the forefoot.

Which being your history and ultra.

Maybe this isn't the shoe free, but I have one.

And then it's, it's just totally, totally secure through here.

Huh.

You know what's funny is the only reason I know about lockdown as a term for shoes is because a video you just posted about how you were dissatisfied with the lockdown.

Am I correct on this?

Dissatisfied?

The lockdown.

Tekton, Very much so.

Can you define lockdown?

Just so I mean, it seem I feels intuitive, but just to make sure I got it.

Yeah.

And so lockdown, when we're talking about lockdown, is how that upper wraps and stays connected to the foot.

And that upper, if you're, if you're allowed by the shoe to cinch down on the upper in whatever way.

There's a lot of different ways.

If that can hold you to the midsole, hold your foot to the footbed, that's going to be what we talk about, lockdown.

If your shoe is staying put in all the right places, it doesn't have to stay put in all places, but in the right places, that's an appropriate lockdown.

Got it.

Okay.

And so this shoe is for the most part going to provide that for everybody.

It's the shoe like the Cascadia that you can throw on for a ton of different conditions, ton of different terrain.

And for the most part, you're going to be satisfied, you're going to have that lockdown, you're going to have protection.

It's all the things you think you want in a trail shoot.

And of course, Vibram is the way to go with outsole.

And so that's something that's always been on the shoe.

So it's a good all arounder.

And that's why a lot of people just say it's one of those shoes that people are like, oh, you're looking for trail shoe, speed goat.

It's the modern age Cascadia.

Right.

Do you have any knowledge of the contract?

I mean, anyone who's watched like the Michael Jordan documentary, wildly fascinating.

You know, he's known for, you know, I feel like they credit his mom with it or something like that, where he got a royalty for every Jordan sold in perpetuity.

So, you know, one of the greatest business deals of all time for him, one of the worst for Nike.

Do you know anything about Carl's relationship with Hoka?

Yeah.

And so this was kind of cool that we went to Speedgoat with the Hoka Trail Collective this last year.

And so they had a panel and I was so jacked about this panel because it had Nico, one of the founders.

It had Carl, the namesake of the shoe, and it had the lead.

He's a product line manager, but he works on the Speed Goat line.

Jared.

Okay.

And so had these three guys.

So it's like all intersections of this shoe and the history of it.

So they went down the history.

It's really that Nico approached Carl and said, I have a shoe for you to try.

He loved it.

And within that contract, they wanted.

He wanted to get his name on the shoe, make it.

Make it his shoe.

And so.

Because he just loved it so much.

And so that's the basics of it.

And so that's.

And now it's exploded into something that it could never not be.

The Speed Goat.

Right, right.

And so I don't know the other contract details and whatnot, but yeah, you know, from a shoe that is probably the most successful trail shoe on the market right now, and it has been for a long time since.

I know the Speedgoat 2 was really the tipping point for people who really got into trail running at the time where the trail running was booming, but also as a good shoe.

And then you get to, like, people Talk about the Speedgoat 4 and the Evo Speedgoat, and those are like the cult favorite.

So it'd be awesome if this shoe kind of went back to some of that.

Ah, okay.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, this is going to please most consumers.

For me, personally, I have another shoe.

Yeah, I.

I enjoy a little bit more, and I think most people would enjoy more if they gave it the chance.

Here.

I'll give you two versions of it.

It's called the Mafate Speed.

And the first trail shoe that HOKA came out, the first shoe that they came out with was the Mafate, which does look a little bit different than this.

You can get.

They relaunched the first Mafate for lifestyle.

That's cool.

And so, yeah.

And so this is some of the Fate Speed 4.

It has a similar profile.

You can get a pretty good lockdown through there, but it's wider in the forefoot, which I personally like that.

I don't have a wide foot, but I like to have a little more play.

Like I said, if you can lock down a couple places.

Appropriate places.

If you can lock down the midfoot and the heel really well, which this shoe and the Speed Goat does really well.

Yeah, this shoe is going to have a little more play in the forefoot.

This is called the Vamp and it's softer.

And it can flex more.

Oh.

And so that's one of the reasons why I like this shoe more than the Speedgoat, personally.

I also like it because it feels more modern with two different foams here.

Okay.

So two different densities of foam.

And so it's gonna, it's gonna feel more cushioned.

You still have that wider profile so you're gonna have some stability on the trail.

Vibra Mega grip.

Of course.

Yeah.

And so like this shoe, whenever someone's like asking about hoka, I get a lot of questions online about what shoe would I use for this.

I've heard about hoka, what would I do?

I mostly push people toward this because I think it's going to be a crowd pleaser with all of the sensations in mind.

And so I've really enjoyed this shoe.

Do you know the price point?

I think this is 160.

Okay.

I believe which is fair for this day and age.

Like that's pretty much what you're going to be.

It's wild that that feels like, okay, not too bad because I'm not that old.

But when I was first buying shoes, to break into the triple digits was a, was a real decision.

I remember when Altro making the jump to triple digits and they went straight to $120.

They didn't go to 105, 110, they went straight to 120.

And all of a sudden it felt like, oh man, I don't know if I should do this.

But now 160 feels pretty good.

Which is like I've been doing this for five years now.

And one of my, the first things, because I think I shared this on a different show between you and I of like, I was the one.

I had one pair of trail shoes.

Yeah.

I had one pair of road shoes and then another pair of shoes that I was given and those were my three shoes because that's all I could afford.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, just think nowadays of like.

So that was my.

One of my favorite things about reviewing of like, I feel like we can give a really informed, honest feedback on hey, if you're gonna invest, this is this.

Yeah, this would be a good investment.

I say that that makes the case for really good reviews because you're offering a service to people of like, hey, you're mate, you're about to make an investment.

These shoes are going to be with you from anywhere from six months to 24 months.

And so spend the money on the right stuff.

There's a real strong case for good reviews.

Exactly.

And so I'm seeing this one is at one on running warehouse 180 which is getting up there speedgoats at that 160 price point.

And so yeah, it is some of that technology if you're more into running and the experience is going to be felt in here for sure.

But if you want to go even more, which I don't even know if you can get these anymore.

This is that same Mafate speed anymore or mafate speed 4, but it satisfies collab with it.

Yeah.

And so it's a much similar, the same concoction down here, but on the upper it's a more technical upper.

It's lighter, more breathable.

You can get a better lockdown.

You have these lock cinch lock laces that you would see on some.

All of Salomon's the Tekton x 2.5 for those who got it.

But this is like, this is where HOKA is really nailing it.

Like if you can collab with satisfy.

This is their second collab I think.

And it sold out like less than an hour, like minutes.

Crazy.

I think when it was online.

And so.

So it's fun to see these types of things coming out.

Yeah.

And, and with a good shoot.

Like if they did this with the Speed Goat, I'd be kind of like ah, maybe.

But the fact that they did it with the Mafate speed was a good call.

Yeah.

What is Hayden Hawks wearing?

Is he wearing a Tekton?

Yep.

Is that what they're all wearing?

I mean I feel like at first for a while they were all wearing the Speed Goat.

Right.

And then they moved on because that.

That was the shoe.

It was for its time when a lot of those athletes were coming on.

When.

Yeah.

Jim Walmsley, Hayden Hawks.

Those types of athletes were coming on.

The Speedgoat was still kind of the leading innovator within trail because you could have that cushion and protection while having a more secure upper which just allowed for confidence on the trail.

Yeah.

And that's when when ultra trail running started to take off is when this speed go really got serious.

And so you'll.

And so that's why it's so popular.

But most of them will be wearing a Tecton X which this is the newest version.

Newest version.

Um, here's a lot of athletes, especially some of their short distance athletes are still wearing the Tecton X2.

Okay.

Which is available at a good price right now, which is also a great shoe.

It's.

It's a much different shoe than the newest Tecton X3, I'll tell you more about this.

Okay.

But what's nice about the Tekton X2 is that it does feel like it has a better lockdown for those who want that.

Plus you get some action with two carbon plates, which is one of the unique things about the Tectonic series.

They have two carbon plates that run side by side, which is where the Tecton name comes from.

They can work independently of each other.

And in this particular shoe, the Tectonics two, you do get some zing propelling you forward because it is rigid, like, it's hard to bend, like.

Yeah.

So you.

Once you put a lot of force into that, that is going to give you force out.

So there's like.

That's true.

But that's only on a certain type of trail, really, that you're going to get that.

What's really nice is that it ha.

It has this independent suspension, like stability.

Interesting.

Okay.

And so that's.

That's pretty cool with the Tectonic series.

That's what they.

And if you're looking for a race shoe, like if you go again, go to a start line and you start scanning, most race day shoes are going to be this tectonics two.

Right now it's bridging into the Tekton X3, which anytime you get to a third version of a shoe, that's where they start to make these bigger innovations, bigger jumps.

So with this one, I mean, it is a stark contrast with that booty having an integrated booty, which Jim Walmsley's shoes at UTMB the last few years have been iterations of this shoe.

Okay.

And so which actually most of their athletes are wearing a different iteration.

Not the Tecton X3, it's the Tecton X 2.5.

Which I was going to ask about that.

What was.

What was up with that?

Was that.

I mean that was, that wasn't.

Was that a marketing play on their end to make it so exclusive, so limited?

Totally.

And they.

I'll just bring out another shoe that would.

We'll play into this conversation.

Yeah, the 10, nine.

Oh yeah.

And so Hoka's.

They are.

Their marketing is brilliant.

Yeah, they're just so good with their marketing.

And so when you come out with something like this, of course it's gonna catch attention, get articles written, whatnot.

There was not very many pairs of these.

I mean, look at this.

The Hoka Tecton X3 is a big shoe in a lot of ways.

But look at this.

What am I looking at?

What is that?

So this is the outsole of the shoe.

This is the Hoka 10 9.

I mean, that is.

And so a joke.

I mean.

Yeah, that's what.

But when they marketed it, it marketed it.

That's a hard one to say.

That is.

It wasn't a joke.

And so.

But they had this extremity and I actually kind of like running in this shoe.

It's made for downhill running.

Yeah.

Like when I got the box, it's like, don't walk downstairs.

Do not drive in the shoe.

Like, it had disclaimers on it and for right reasons.

And the idea is that this heel would catch and then it would align your.

Your foot for toe off.

Wow.

Okay.

And so.

But then immediately after this, immediately after this, they came out.

It's kind of like a drag race car, right?

Yep.

It catches you.

And so immediately after this, they came out with technology with just a little bit of a heel bumping out with like the Clifton Edge.

And so.

And you see that design principle through a lot of shoes these days.

But they marketed it as extreme and then they brought it into many of their other shoes, which is a great application.

Yeah.

Even here, I mean, look at that.

That still does have that extended heel bevel.

Not near as extreme, of course, but I think the.

My take on the 2.5, it is.

Yeah, it is much classier.

I would maybe wear this on a date, but not the other one.

Right.

But so that Hoka Tectonics 2.5 was exclusively set out there at Western States.

You could pre order a pair and you had to pick it up at western states.

So that's how you would get it.

Some people would get a few pairs, sell them on ebay.

So it's getting worldwide.

And that's what the winner of UTMB wore this year.

That's what Jim Walmsley wore the previous year closest to that iteration, as opposed to this iteration.

And so it was a marketing thing, but it's also, also kind of showing that if your athletes are choosing to wear that over this, it's a better shoe.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so Thomas.

Thomas had a pair when we were out at Western States.

And I got like a mile or two in it on a trail and I went hard on in it.

Yeah.

And so, because I wanted to feel.

Because I knew I was going to be getting the Hoka Tecton X3.

Yeah.

Which is a good shoe, don't get me wrong.

But the 2.5 has a more tenacious material up here.

It's this matrix material, which is it's just super durable, super strong.

You can mold it in different ways.

It can really create some good lockdown.

But that shoe had just a better application.

You get better lockdown.

The foam was slightly different and I believe the plates were the same in that the 2.5 to the 3 and so.

But a lot of their athletes are choosing to wear the 2.5 and having more success in it.

Got it.

And so I'm saying all that to.

I'll get to the three here.

What's different about this?

So that was their marketing kickoff.

Like this is exclusive.

And then here we'll bring the Tecton X3, which is the closest you can get to that shoe.

It looks almost exactly the same as the 2.5.

That one that Jim Walmsley was wearing and one UTMB with.

And so that like that's where the shoe is getting a lot of sales.

I believe because it's the closest to that.

They were getting the market prepped and ready for this shoe to come out because they don't have an option where this, this booty is not on it.

Which would be probably a smart marketing move for next year if they're not coming out with a brand new version of this.

Just cut the booty and you'll sell X amount more, I bet.

Yeah.

A little cheaper maybe.

Yeah.

And so this shoe is a really good shoe for that easier train to getting into the moderate.

But my, my hard part, just for our honest review's sake of like my heel wasn't the.

My heel was dancing around more.

And that's a pretty crucial spot to be able to get that lockdown.

Yes.

And so that's why I tried going with these lock laces.

It's a better lockdown.

And the 2.5 has a version of lock laces too.

Of these.

The bungee cord strap.

Yeah.

And this particular type of stretchy bungee cord wasn't the best application for it.

I'm just going to say that out there.

But they had a firmer, firmer lace on there.

Closer to a Solomon esque.

But once you did that, then did your heel stop moving around so much?

Not completely stop.

Because these are also a little stretchy.

These are meant for triathlons more so.

So they are a little stretchy.

Expand a little bit, which is really comfortable.

But I didn't get the lockdown.

But there's also a lot of people who haven't had that issue.

And that's why it's good to be like looking at the.

The other two reviewers who reviewed this with me didn't have that as much as I did.

And we all share that within our review.

But what's best about this shoe is that it's taken some of like the latest and greatest technologies.

Still has those two plates but they are more reactive in this material because.

Or in this shoe because of the midsole material.

This is that Peba.

This is that really high energy, really light also really soft cushion that you would get into like a road marathoning shoe.

And so you get a lot of great reaction from this shoe.

It is super comfortable.

The upper is great.

Fits awesome everywhere else.

But once you get to technical, that was my issue.

Got it.

But you'll be seeing this and I've already seen this a lot.

Even though it's a 300 shoe, maybe 275, can't remember but it's, it's up there.

But a lot of people are starting to grab for this.

Wow.

And so again they're masters at marketing.

They're getting extremely good at making new products.

They're still innovating and it's.

Yeah.

I mean it's really working for them.

I think one of the highest, let's, let's say the evidence of what they have accomplished and are accomplishing is their earnings report.

The Decker's earnings report.

There's very few companies are exceeding their earning projections the way that Deckers just did in this market.

This sort of flat down economy, this kind of season that we're in.

And Hoka's sales are just exceeding expectations.

And when company, when public companies put out their sales projections, they're not ambitious.

They have to be like maximum fidelity to what they think honestly will happen or else you're playing with the market and they just destroyed what they thought would happen.

So I mean that's, that's one of the many pieces of evidence other than just the eye test at a race to see them everywhere that they've done something truly special.

The right, the right product.

Yes.

Sounds like a phenomenal team behind it at the right time as our industry has just been exponentially growing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It really is amazing what they're doing in the just the shoe side of things.

I mean they're even starting to get into like really quality gear of like I would, I'm starting to recommend even some of their technical gear.

It's like super light.

Really fits well.

Yeah, exactly.

And so they're, they're really.

Yeah.

The team that they have and how they're expanding is just hasn't been seen in any other really outdoor brand.

There's.

Yeah, there's still an outdoor brand at their heart.

And so I love saying that, but we haven't seen that in, in the market in this day and age.

And they're, they're expanding a lot of possibilities for everybody else.

Yeah.

And because they are so innovative.

Yeah.

I'll say as a, as a final thought on my end, I liked seeing Hayden Hawks in.

On the ultra team because Utah, Utah in a Utah brand.

But man, does he look in Hoka.

He's just one of my favorites.

Everything about him.

I love him.

So I.

Their team, the team is so good.

Obviously Walmsley, but you know, Hayden's my guy.

Yeah, totally.

And they, yeah, they just have.

Again, I'm just going to come back to this.

They have this sense that they're wrapping in all these things like we talked about, like we've talked about Adidas, Terex and you know, the North Face and all these.

Even with their team, like they have a team.

But that was a really heavy investment for a while and you could feel that from the brand, which Hoka again is just, they're continuing that investment in their team while simultaneously being able to invest in all these other areas that just making their footprint wider and wider and wider and wider.

And thankfully, like, they have a pretty good track record and like just being a good brand to work with.

They seem to be doing good things like for the community.

And that's what matters most to me as like, because I'm, I'm still a consumer.

Even though I'm the one getting all these shoes and doing all these reviews and product deep dives, whatnot, I'm still a consumer and I'm still a fan of the sport.

And when you have someone like Hoka at like kind of leading the charge and expanding everything, that makes me feel good for the future of trail running as a sport.

The future of technology integration.

The future of everything.

Right.

Yeah.

And so when that's, when that's your world, I think we can feel pretty good that HOKA is the one leading it and hopefully continues to lead it in, in a positive manner.

It's a great brand.

Yeah.

Like you say, to be out front, it's a great brand.

Yeah.

Let's do this again, Taylor.

We'll pick a brand and yeah, let's do it again in a week or two.

We might even need to do a part two of HOKA eventually.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, I love it.

Yeah.

And I think, think this is the right time to start looking at some of those other brands, like you said, because Hoka was really the catalyst for all of this other change within the outdoor trail running industry.

Yeah, they showed that people were receptive to it and that they're willing to pay for it.

Yeah.

Yep.

Totally.

All right, man.

Let's do it again.

Okay.

Thank you, Josh.