PJ Ellis (00:38)

So hello, Sharon. Thank you for joining us on Wit and Grit today. How are you?

Sharon (00:42)

Hi both, good

to be here. Yeah, I'm well, thank you. Good.

PJ Ellis (00:45)

Cool. So I've looked on the old LinkedIn and I've looked at, who is Sharon Bell? There's no one better to tell me who Sharon is than you. So tell me a bit more about yourself, Sharon.

Sharon (00:48)

yes.

gosh, that's a big question, isn't it? So my day job, ⁓ I'm Chief Executive of Services for Education. So we're the charity that do all the music teaching in the Birmingham schools. And we have another division which is delivering training and consultancy to school leaders and school teachers. And I've been in that job for about, well, for six years now, coming up for six years. So that's my day job, but I kind of have my fingers in some other pies. So I'm...

Chair of a National Mental Health Charity. I'm an accredited coach. I'm the director with one of the Birmingham, well, the Birmingham Diocese Multi-Academy Trust. So different areas of the city I find myself in, but obviously services for education is the big thing.

Andy Dawson (01:39)

Can I, I take you back almost to the start of your career there, Sharon? Cause I had a little nosey around your website and I saw the strategy 20 to 25 kind of paper on there. And of course we all know what happened in 2020 when the world came to an abrupt halt and we're all about grit and a bit of wit on here. So just, talk to us about how was that? How, what was the pivot like? What did you have to do when schools closed?

Sharon (01:57)

Yeah.

Yeah,

so that, mean, that was amazing really, because I started in 2019 in October 2019. So first charity chief exec job and yeah, and then March happened, didn't it? yeah, education and music at that time were...

incredibly tricky. On a personal level, I lost my mom very suddenly in May 2020 as well. So kind of talk about grit or, you know, trying to lead a charity at the time of dealing with sudden loss was challenging, but actually it gave me a real focus. And we, as an organization, we had to, as everybody did, pivoted online. But actually the extent to which we did that,

meant that I think then music in particular was still alive and well, you know, when COVID sort of retreated as it were. And actually in terms of our training and consultancy division, what we have seen, and it will be no surprise to you that the customer wants much more online provision.

And we still do some in person, but the flip is much more towards online. Hopefully doing it better than we were when we had to do it in sort of emergency 2020 circumstances. But it forced us to be creative and innovative at speed. But we all recognize that didn't we back then.

Andy Dawson (03:23)

Did you notice or what did you know about, because my youngest would still have been at school, still, a junior school, would still have been getting some music tuition on the trumpet or the trombone, the plastic one, whatever they were. What did you notice about kids during that time? What changes did you see or feel?

Sharon (03:24)

Hmm.

Yeah. Yep.

So I think for the children that we worked with it was interesting because between the two lockdowns in schools, the second time round, it was a lot easier for us to, the schools were more set up for us to be able to connect with their children at home and all the safeguarding stuff had been sorted out and all that kind of thing. What we saw was a real commitment to the music lessons during that time. I think probably.

because we were a little oasis in the middle of things. And actually, we probably come onto it, but we kept our ensemble provision going online. So kind of all our mini orchestras that operate across the city. Now that wasn't the best experience for everybody, but our colleagues were absolutely passionate about keeping those children together. And again, it was like another little oasis for them in the week. And I think because they kept connected

with us and we were sort of other safe people in a really difficult time. It meant that, you know, when everything kind of opened up again, those orchestras could start back.

PJ Ellis (04:40)

That's lovely. You talk about those Oasis and the ensemble provision. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that looks like within your charity? know it does so much, but there are some of the bigger sort of, I've been to a few of your gigs. I didn't even know it was you that was behind them, if it makes sense. can you tell us a little bit more about what you do?

Sharon (04:55)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, because we were,

yeah, we're bit of a curious conundrum, because 12 years ago, we were part of Birmingham City Council, and you know, everything before that, and then music education and learning assessment services and health education spun out into our land. But yeah, in terms of the music, so we employ about 180, what we call peripatetic music teachers. So, know, the people that go out and about.

in schools so they will teach in multiple schools a day.

every possible instrument you can think of and probably some that you can't ⁓ as well. So that's our kind of school day provision. I probably should say as well, we, I mean, we do work primarily in schools, but we do have a couple of community choirs in retirement villages. We have a project for adults with profound and multiple learning difficulties and we have an inclusive choir. So we do some funded work around the edges, but

in schools teaching and then our ensembles of which there are over a hundred of these. I call them mini orchestras for people that that sort of don't really know what we're talking about but it could range from you know a small guitar group

right up to Birmingham Schools Symphony Orchestra. So, you know, small right up, right up to big. Some of those will be school-based ensembles. So part of our provision in schools. And then we have our auditioned, what we call central ensembles, where there is a pathway for our children who kind of really do want to sort of advance and develop in their music.

Andy Dawson (06:28)

I noticed when I was having a nosy round, was a drumming group that played in front of 5,000 people at the Royal Albert Hall.

Sharon (06:35)

It was. yeah, so we have for the last two years we've been at the Royal Albert Hall. And yeah, last year it was our Tabla and Sitar Group. So that's an important part of our world music provision. And I love that because it it's about what Birmingham is about. And it really kind of illustrates the diversity, you know, in the city that we have. Actually, we've just heard like two weeks ago that this November

Andy Dawson (06:37)

Thank you.

Sharon (07:00)

Birmingham School Symphony Orchestra are playing in Royal Albert Hall. So we are really excited about that and that will be a much larger group of children and young people that we take down.

Andy Dawson (07:11)

That's fantastic. Just if you can, could you take us in to the mind and eyes of one of the kids in that group before going into the Albert Hall, playing in the Albert Hall and what we're like after?

Sharon (07:25)

Yeah, well, very excited, I think. So when I was down for the performance in November with our Raga and Tala group, myself and another colleague, we arrived at the Royal Albert Hall just as they were all outside in their traditional dress, taking photographs and, you know, with the big Royal Albert Hall in the background and

the excitement was just right up there and for our teachers as well actually two years ago there's a teacher one of our colleagues posted a photograph and it was one of those you know how it was how it is now type things and she had the photo of when she was the child performing at the Royal Albert Hall you know way back.

well not so great but actually one of my younger teachers but you know what I mean and then now taking a group down there and it's just amazing and it's the same when the groups perform at Symphony Hall in July which is always our kind of end of year showcase event and yeah when I stood on the stage I'm not normally on the stage at that event but I was doing some thanks last year at the end of it and you sort of suddenly see Symphony Hall and you think wow this is this is big.

PJ Ellis (08:35)

Yeah.

And you know what, the impact of that experience and music, you know, look at that teacher you just said there, the photograph there and now, it stays with these children, doesn't it? I remember back in the day that it was like a children in need concert and I went into the local primary school and they were looking for musicians and what have you to go and represent the school. You get a free Big Mac apparently, so I was right at the front of the queue.

And I remember, I I waited for all dinner time and I sang a few verses to Mrs. Houston. Isn't it weird how you remember your music teacher? Can you remember your Sharon? What was your Sharon?

Sharon (09:09)

I

can't remember his name, but I can absolutely remember because I did learn the clarinet at school. I have to confess, I don't really play it now, ⁓ but I can absolutely remember him.

PJ Ellis (09:20)

Okay.

Yeah,

they've got, honestly, it's so impactful. Mrs. Houston, brilliant pianist. She taught me the recorder and yeah, I sang a few notes and then she looked at me and was like, I wonder if we could get you playing some instruments on the day. was like, I'm out, I didn't make it. But the people that went, honestly, it stuck with them forever. They were constantly talking about it, the moment going on stage. was amazing. So how impactful are those days on these kids when it comes to

the confidence, the resilience, the creativity must be so important.

Sharon (09:53)

It is, and I think they learn so many skills around it, don't they? Because yes, there's the playing the instrument, but when you're playing as part of something bigger, you have your part to play, which is kind of obvious, but you're kind of in the moment. I always look at our percussionists, actually, and think, gosh, they have one of the... I mean, I'm not musical by background, but...

they have to kind of count it so right to get that one movement where the big cymbals or whatever go. what is lovely, and I remember this this summer when you come out of Symphony Hall, for example, and I get the train in, so I'm heading back to Snow Hill and you've got loads of parents with their kids doing the same. And you've got these little ones who have been in our big primary choir on this stage and it's half nine, quarter to ten at night.

and they are chatting non-stop to Mom Dad, Carer about what's just happened and did you see this and that and I just think I'm sorry parents you are not going to get that child to sleep tonight and they're in school the next day.

PJ Ellis (10:58)

Just to jump in before, I'm sure you've got a question Andy. Just off the back of that, and I suppose I'm trying to think now more of how beautiful that is. Why do you exist then? You talk about these 180 musicians, musical teachers that you have. Is it not on the curriculum anymore, music?

Sharon (11:15)

So yeah, no, so there will be in terms of our music work, there will be somebody like us covering all of England, if you see what I mean. we would incorporate what historically was Birmingham Music Service. Solihull, for example, will have its own music service. The difference there is it's still part of the council, but what they're actually doing is the same. And I guess why we need to exist or an organisation or a provision like us needs to

PJ Ellis (11:23)

Got you. Yeah.

Sharon (11:43)

exist. If you think about it, to give that child the whole raft of possibilities, whether it's the clarinet, the steel pans, the, you anything in between, a school is not going to employ specialists in all of those. So it's much better that you've got somebody like us coming in for a few hours, many, you know, in some schools, it's many, many hours a week, but able to offer a range.

Andy Dawson (11:50)

you

I mean, with the episodes we've had so far of the podcast Sharon we've had great range of guests and topics like, you know, Tom Clarke Forrest at Sport 4 Life, you know, helping kids do sports. You've had Abby from Millennium Point promoting STEM. So obviously there is some inequality in our city, in our region, and there isn't the country. And there is, you know, high unemployment in certain areas. So.

Sharon (12:17)

Yeah, I listened to the Abby one.

Andy Dawson (12:30)

I'm just interested in what's the demographic like of the kids that you're teaching? How inclusive is it? And have you got any lovely little success stories you can share with us?

Sharon (12:40)

Yeah, so we work really hard on that.

part of things and I think one thing I should say to that point is that we as part of the kind of funding that we get through Arts Council England from the DfE, we supply all the instruments so that no parent has ever got to buy an instrument for their child to learn. They don't have to hire an instrument, you none of that needs to happen. In terms of certainly those first exposures to a musical instrument in

whole class instruments tuition as we call it, the parent, the child will not be paying for that. So, and then we have various ways of kind of working with schools to try and make it accessible for as many as possible. Those ensembles we were talking about.

there's no charge for anybody to be part of those ensembles. So we really, really try and remove barriers to access. One thing I was really, really pleased about, and to be honest, we need to do more of this, was at Symphony Hall this year, we got some funding that enabled some parents from some schools in areas of the city who just wouldn't have been able to afford to buy tickets to come to Symphony Hall. We got some funding to enable that.

and we need to do that more because it's great your child is on Symphony Hall stage or your family member, whatever. If you can't afford to go and see them, then I'm not comfortable with that. So I think it's about opening up to the whole family. And so, yes, in terms of that kind of access, certainly showcasing the range of cultures and diversity in Birmingham is really important to us as well.

PJ Ellis (14:17)

really is. I know how important accessibility and connectivity is with experiences like that. So bravo, bravo. And when they go through these experiences, parents, carers, children, and you see this impact that they're having on both I assume all sides of the fence, it's impacting everybody, isn't it?

Sharon (14:24)

Thank

Yeah, yeah absolutely.

PJ Ellis (14:40)

What sort of skills would you say those experiences and those opportunities are installed into children for future sort of life, What would you say they are?

Sharon (14:48)

Yeah.

Do know, there's something you can track way back. I'll come back to the ensembles in a minute, but I was fascinated to learn when I started in this job, that if you expose nursery school children to music, so at that kind of nursery age, their rate of vocabulary learning increases. And that's just incredible. That blew my mind when I heard it. But I think when it comes to being part of one of our ensembles,

you do start talking about commitment and resilience and teamwork and your place in the team. And we do have quite high expectations of attendance, know, our ensemble rehearsals, if you're committing to being part of something, obviously life happens and we totally accept that. But, you know, if you're in, you're in really. And I think that really helps young people learn those skills and then to support each other because

because if you're in a big group, you know, and something maybe doesn't go quite as expected on the night, then being able to adapt and not be spooked and, you know, not that young person not feeling that they've caused that, you know, that mistake is really important. the everybody having each other's back thing, which I absolutely appreciate you can get through. You you were talking about a colleague that had been on talking about sport. I think there's different ways that these skills can kind of bubble up.

for young people isn't there, but for us it's music that absolutely recognise that in other spaces as well those kind of things happen.

Andy Dawson (16:23)

Yeah, I mean, parents, well, we're both parents. I've got two teenage lads, which brings its challenges at times. In terms of trying to get their attention, I picked upon the point you made about, I think it was the nursery schools and it improves the vocabulary. So in a world where our kids or younger generations are on phones a lot, on apps a lot, gaming a lot, talk to the parents out there.

Sharon (16:32)

I can imagine.

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (16:50)

about the benefits of music and getting involved in music. What can that bring for our young children?

Sharon (16:57)

So I'm not a parent, so I had a need to say that right at the outset. However, I have got two nieces over in Australia, one learning the piano, one learning the flute. And you can see what that does in terms of their confidence and their concentration.

And I think it's the confidence building. know, when I see my nieces be prepared to go and perform, you know, they have like us, have concerts and stuff and they're nervous about that. But then they push themselves out of their comfort zone. And don't get me wrong, some young people are all over that, they? They want to do that. But some are less so. But still they push themselves forward and they do it. And I think that's great. I think as well, it gives them something.

so valuable that's not sat on the phone all the time and scrolling and hey we're all guilty of that at times aren't we but I think you know having that kind of outlet is just so so important and friendships can build up in that space as well and we've certainly seen examples of that you asked if there was a kind of example is I can still remember a conversation with a parent at one of our Christmas concerts because of course my colleagues see the impact every day when they go out to work and I'm ⁓

a little bit more removed from that until it comes to concert season, which is fantastic. And I was chatting to a parent and she said, you know, her child was in the concert. And she told me that he joined our ensemble system through lockdown. And she probably saw me and I go, gosh, that...

was probably quite challenging because know, Zoom rehearsals were not good, but they kept people connected. But it was quite humbling actually, because she said, ⁓ you're wrong. She said, my child has autism. And he found a safe space in lockdown with your team. And because of that...

he was up for going to the in-person stuff and he's on the stage and had he not had that experience that wouldn't have happened and I was like I just I had just thought kind of we kept it going because it was the right thing and it was the right thing to do but to know that some young people joined us in that time and then you know enabled the kind of transition into real life again was fantastic to me.

PJ Ellis (19:17)

That really strikes a chord with me when you say that safe space because I think my children are finding their safe space in creativity, in the arts and stuff like that. We bought them a piano about two years ago. sits in the living room. It looks lovely. We haven't used it. I mean, to be fair, talking about all those confidence building things and taking people away from the phones, it's something that I've put on my to-do list this year to get piano lessons. So if you've got any of those teachers talking about...

Sharon (19:29)

I'm dusting it regularly.

Really? I think I know some people that

can help you with that.

PJ Ellis (19:43)

I was going to say is perfect,

them my way. Talk to those people that could come my way and help me with all those things from confidence to whatever it might be. How do you work with your teachers to install? I assume it's quite, know, they're in one school one day, another school, then actually, there's quite a bit of resilience and confidence that's required there. Do you work with them to install those sort of skills for them to then be able to pass that on to the children, if that makes sense?

Sharon (20:08)

Yeah, we do. So we do it in two ways, I think it's probably important to say. So first with our teachers in schools. Yeah, you're right. It's hugely challenging. I think it's a very challenging job because you're out and about all the time, depending on the school you work in.

You may or may not see somebody else from Services for Education in that day, let alone your working week, etc. So a bit like in a school, we would have the equivalent of INSET days in the sense of all staff training days. Often they are all music training. But just to give an example, on last week, last Monday, we had an all colleague training day together, which for me was super exciting.

because it was the first time since pre-lockdown that we had had...

everybody, our school support team and our music team together and our central teams for a training day. And one of the things that we were talking about in that was resilience skills, listening skills. And to do that, we got two people in, people you should talk to really, ex leading hostage negotiators in the Met and my goodness.

Andy Dawson (21:17)

Bring it on.

Sharon (21:18)

absolutely fantastic in terms of helping people see the importance of listening. And one of their lines really stuck with me. They said, you they never underestimate the privilege or the importance of hearing somebody's story. Now, they do it for hours on end in a crisis scenario. But I think there was something about, you know, how we listen to the people that we work with. So that's in the music side.

Andy Dawson (21:32)

Mmm.

Sharon (21:44)

our school support team have a valuable role in

yes for our own teachers but for training the teachers of the city. So for example we would be the lead safeguarding trainer in Birmingham and for us that's about you know that's what that team do they create safe spaces for those school leaders and teachers to up skill in those subjects on a range of subjects but using safeguarding as an example so that they feel more confident when they go back into the classroom.

Andy Dawson (22:12)

Yeah, superb. I've just looked at my notes and I'm just going to segue into something slightly differently if we may, if that's okay. So, you seem to like planes a lot in your earlier career and you seem to be knocking around East Midlands Airport, Manchester airport, kind of in various airlines. So I'm just wondering, again, it's always good to know where someone's come from. So, and there's a lot of

Sharon (22:19)

You may.

Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Dawson (22:36)

of professionals as well who listen to this. I'm just wondering, how did that, professional background, not saying this isn't a profession, but in terms of going through those kind of qualifications, getting into industry, how is that helping you in this sector?

Sharon (22:45)

Sure.

massively.

Yeah, so I trained as an accountant with KPMG and then I'd got this airline aviation specialism, which took me for about 12 years. But then there was, I think there's always a moment, isn't there, in people where maybe something shifts. And I was working for Manchester Airport, Manchester Airports Group, and I was offered a secondment into learning and development. And to be honest, that was the, that was the crunch point in terms of moving the rest of my career much more

into first learning and development, but then into education sectors. So University of Nottingham, Warwickshire College and here. But I think, I mean, it's interesting because coming into this job, I think everybody can be a bit nervous about somebody with what they would see as a commercial background. But more and more,

you know, I was talking at a charity thing recently, you we need to be using that kind of approach in the charity sector. Don't get me wrong, never, you know, holding the tension absolutely with impact of the organisation that we work for and the culture that we want to create. think the intersection of those three things is something I'm quite passionate about.

But, you know, without that kind of, I talk about commercial with a little C to try and of soften it slightly internally, but without that background, I wouldn't have been able to do my job in lockdown, really, for example, because it did become.

about the numbers. So I was really fortunate to have that opportunity to kind of move much more into the people side of things. And although my career, if you look on LinkedIn, I describe it as squiggly. It to me has when you look back, it makes sense because the sort of second half has always been about the person and putting the person first. And yes, in the organisation that I lead, but the kind of the service that we offer. So

yes it's music, Warwickshire College it was obviously FE students and the University of Nottingham again very different as well.

Andy Dawson (24:53)

Can you go back to a moment when you were staring at the planes taking off at the airport and you thought, I want to switch? Was there a particular conversation, a particular course, a particular moment that kind of...

Sharon (25:07)

Well, I think

in the spirit of honesty, we need to say that that was a redundancy moment. that, yeah, there was definitely a moment earlier on where I knew that as much as the numbers and all that kind of thing were really important.

PJ Ellis (25:16)

Thanks.

Sharon (25:22)

the people side of things was really important. So when I was offered that opportunity to second that that was a no brainer to me that I was going to do that. I remember my dad will still say now he can remember a conversation when I was training with KPMG and which was a fantastic you know start to my career but he said he asked me one day how it was and I said it's all right but I'm not sure about the numbers. A bit of an issue.

PJ Ellis (25:45)

Hahaha!

Sharon (25:46)

in an accountancy firm but when it came to that really quite a shock redundancy scenario from Manchester.

that's happened three times in my career, but I have to say each time it has kind of opened up the door to new possibilities and bigger things. That's not how it feels in the moment. I would never take from that moment of, my goodness, who's paying the mortgage type thing. But each time it's opened up something bigger. And what it did then was I knew I was really much more interested in the learning and development space and this, that, and the other. And I was like, oh, what?

I lived in Nottingham at the time and I was thinking, where else could I, where else would I want to work? Nottingham had been my university way back when. And so I was like, ⁓ I wonder what they've got. And it, was a really classic example of, say now, don't we, that we, we're preparing children for jobs that don't even exist yet. But I actually think then as well, you know, there was, when I went onto the Nottingham website, it's like director in the careers.

with a commercial background is what they're looking for. Who knew that something like that existed? And that's what sort of then took me on this path that became a bit different in the education sectors.

Andy Dawson (26:57)

Yeah. mean, sometimes moments happen and it helps you get your eyes outside. Look what's going on around you. And that's when the magic happens. I mean, I'm a fellow graduate from, from Nottingham uni. And I guess a little question If I was sat in front of you now, it's, 11th of September, 2025. I was asking you for a bit of guidance about what I should be doing in the next couple of years, knowing that there's lots of noise about AI and stuff.

What would your advice to me be? to graduates coming in to see you?

Sharon (27:26)

Gosh, well, funnily enough, just the other day, a friend in her 20s, late 20s, I'm not quite sure, got in touch with me and it was, I wanted to have a coffee and it was a job kind of decision moment. And what was really interesting, and I think it probably applies to that kind of question, is in a way...

She was possibly slightly overthinking it in that, do I want to be doing this thing that was being kind of mooted for 10 years, say. And I think way back when there was more of a sense of, you know, when you're going into something, you're going to be doing it for quite a long time. And don't get me wrong, we were like loyal colleagues, we would like commitment and all that kind of thing, but it is so much more normal now.

to build on those experiences, of one job at a time. And I think for graduates, if it was a graduate I talking to you now, I would say, take the opportunities that come your way and almost don't overthink it, but also believe in yourself because I think you sort of see two camps, I'm sure there's many more camps of graduates, but you see the ones that, yes, who are the kind of uber high performers.

PJ Ellis (28:30)

Hmm.

Sharon (28:41)

And then yes, there's this big group in the middle, but there's some people that they go through and I just don't think they've got enough people cheering them on actually that says, you've learned all of this, go and try for that thing. Interestingly, all of the three, each of those redundancies along the way, each time I applied for a job that was a promotion and admittedly it was done out of a, my word, I haven't got a job. So I think there's something about

PJ Ellis (28:44)

it.

you

Sharon (29:07)

pushing yourself out there as well.

PJ Ellis (29:09)

Yeah, I'd agree. I think the squiggly career for the win I do ⁓ Yeah, I think my career has been very squiggly. I was a lawyer for eight years and no way would I have thought I'd be doing what I'm doing now, you 15 years ago. And I do, we're starting to see more conversations, certainly I am around actually your career now is more a series of mini projects.

Sharon (29:14)

So I like that. Squiggly career from the win We'll take that.

Okay.

PJ Ellis (29:35)

where you can build on skills and what have you. and equally, do think Sharon, you bang on, I do think that's a technical term for right, in that you need those cheerleaders to better position people into opportunities. Paul Faulkner, one of our previous guests, said that CVs should probably start with those experiences rather than your grades, you know, which is really interesting. What also, ⁓

Sharon (29:42)

you

Yeah. ⁓

And I think when you, because when you, I was just going to say, when you, when

people start talking about their experiences, you see their passion come out for whatever that thing is. And often from that passion becomes, could come great work or great contribution to something.

PJ Ellis (30:06)

Yeah.

Well, I would say that you know, that passion piece, know, it was numbers first, Abigail, very similar, know, numbers first, that gave her a great foundation to then put people first and, you know, to be able to manage an organization like yours, you millions and millions of pounds of income, you know, you need that professional experience, but you also need that passion play around people. And I think that's really makes me go a bit cold, actually, that I love that. What's your hope for the kids of the future, Sharon?

Sharon (30:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

PJ Ellis (30:41)

What does that look like the next gen?

Sharon (30:43)

So.

I would hope that they would feel that they could, so kids are unique, young people are unique, they? I think that's the thing, that they each come or are going to go into the future. I mean, they're there now, aren't they? But they're there with their own unique set of skills and talents and passions. And I think my hope would be that they feel enabled and supported to kind of go forth into the next bit of their world and kind of make a difference in the way that they want to.

you know and that's that's important because some people some young people will have those big aspirations some will be much smaller but you know all the gifts and the talents that they've got that they are championed and supported to be and and if they're from Birmingham you know I'm not clearly from Birmingham but it's kind of my adopted city now so I can be passionate about Northern Ireland I can be passionate about Nottingham where I spent the other chunk and now you know Birmingham and I would be I would really

those young people to be proud of where they've come from or at least the part that Birmingham's had in that journey because they won't all be from here, they might have moved here but Birmingham has a part in that.

PJ Ellis (31:50)

Love that, I might steal that for a LinkedIn post if that's okay.

Sharon (31:53)

steal away.

think that's the way to do it.

Andy Dawson (31:56)

Just

what struck me, I've kind of scribbled in a couple of things down and I've thought of it for music before, but I guess as you're learning an instrument, playing in an ensemble, performing on a stage, the good thing about that for younger people is you fail all the time and you learn all the time because you get the note wrong. You miss the drum beat. You're not in tune. You're not in sync. But over a period of time, that constant go again, go again, go again, really builds that.

Sharon (32:23)

Yeah.

Andy Dawson (32:23)

that resilience in them, I'm sure. So I then go to funding. So give you the stage, right? Everyone always needs more funding. So take the stage for a minute. Why should we, if anyone's listening out there, make the case for more funding for music in schools?

Sharon (32:38)

Because without that our children are missing something absolutely life-changing. I really do believe that. And, Andy, you talked about resilience there. And I think if there was one superpower I could give to children...

that would equip them its resilience. And I think music, learning an instrument, delving into the arts, it unlocks a different part of their brain. Don't get me wrong, the academic subjects are important and I absolutely do believe that. But I think that through creativity, something else unlocks and we need to give more and more children the ability to do that and to find their thing. And it might be that they pick up the clarinet.

And it's not their thing. But then they get to have a go on the steel pans and they think, do you know what, that brings me joy and there's something I want to be part of in that. So I think we need as many children as possible to have the ability to experience it, but then importantly, continue it as well. And I think for me, that's the thing, because that's when it comes to sort of individual lessons or very, very small group lessons.

That's where at the moment, although we are paid by the school, the parent will be paying in the background. And I think we need to unlock more more funding so that that is less of an issue. So that kids can have a go and have a go for longer because I do think, yes, there's the ones that go through and they'll go to the conservatoire and they'll...

do great things and that's great. But alongside that, the kind of wellbeing thing and that more holistic curriculum part of things is so, important.

PJ Ellis (34:15)

Does your role involve any lobbying Sharon?

Sharon (34:18)

So, not lots and lots, but we try where we can. So funnily enough, just literally last week, I met up with Saqib Bhatti because he is now the shadow minister for education. So, and he would be my MP as well. So we were talking about all things education related and because we're still awaiting new policy changes from new government.

And so we were talking about what that might look like. And, you know, that was good to have that voice. And then you asked me at a time where there's not often lots, but next week I'm down at the Houses of Parliament and all the, there's an invitation, one of the MPs, it's not a Birmingham MP, but one of the MPs in the country has invited all music services for an event together to try and raise up the profile of music on the curriculum.

opportunities and for me it's kind of grabbing them while they're there.

PJ Ellis (35:14)

think the reason why I asked, that's fantastic. What a perfect time to ask that question because for me, my son's just had to pick his options for year 10. And the standard sort of debacle exists, history or geography, IT or business studies. Why is it music mandatory if it's so impactful? Why? Because I would have loved to been, for want of a better word, forced to pick up an instrument. I would have absolutely loved it. Can you imagine now just being able to play the piano? You absolutely...

Sharon (35:18)

you

PJ Ellis (35:40)

Beautiful, it? Is that something, I mean, we can't change the curriculum, can we? I don't think we ever will whilst in our lifetime, but if you had a magic wand, would that be a mandatory lesson in your eyes?

Sharon (35:44)

Yeah.

Yeah,

think making it mandatory to take at a qualification level personally, I'm not so sure about that. think some of my colleagues might say differently to that, I think we have to enable children, young people to choose what they want, not what they want, but where their passion is. And yes, it's going to be a balanced curriculum. I do have a concern though, that because of the lack of people doing GCSE music,

There is a real problem around A-level music and it's very difficult to find A-level provision music and that is a worry for the sector, I think, for young people who do have those sort of aspirations. But I think some kind of exposure to music, which of course you do have up until you kind of options type scenario in terms of the classroom, I think that is important. But yeah, I think it's got to be right for the young person.

but I think absolutely more could be made of it to push it as a thing, which would be amazing, wouldn't it? I like you, I would love, I think, you know when you go through stations and you've got the piano and somebody sits down who, I know they don't look, not that they should look like they're going to be an amazing performer and they just, everybody stops. It's just amazing, isn't it?

PJ Ellis (37:06)

Yeah,

yeah, that power of connection and stuff like that. Yeah, it's blows me away. It really does. ⁓

Andy Dawson (37:12)

Yeah.

My youngest never kept up his instrument, but he is doing GCSE music tech and he absolutely loves it. He thinks he's a wannabe DJ, but he's really enjoyed his project that he did kind of last year and we all surprised, you know, it's one of his highlights of his week.

Sharon (37:19)

Yeah.

Do you know,

funnily enough, we are using some of our funding. That's an area that we have not been doing enough of. And it is an area that we're doing some pilot projects in schools. This time round we're...

kind of an associate is going to work with us to take music tech into schools because again, like you say, music way back then will always been thought of quite traditionally.

But for the young people today, it's not, it? So we need to be giving them the whole range of options. So I'm hopeful that the music tech offer will, you know, from these kind of pilot projects will just continue to grow and grow, which means there'll be more people like you, like your son Andy, kind of, you know, really embracing that.

PJ Ellis (38:15)

It is remarkable

the amount of lessons that are available. And if we can spin that, I suppose, that offering musically to suit kids like, you know, that want to get into DJing or back at the house or, I mean, my in-laws grew up on treading the boards basically, but not necessarily acting. They did all the production. So the sound and stuff, know, so there's so many, I suppose it's these careers things, isn't it? It's that education about what you can do.

Sharon (38:35)

amazing, yeah.

PJ Ellis (38:42)

⁓ you know, when I was told to be a lawyer, I was also the other option I had was either be a lawyer or a diver. That was it. I was like, what? Yeah. Really bizarre. ⁓

Sharon (38:51)

Is that that

little, that kind of computer program that we used to use kind of pinged out?

PJ Ellis (38:54)

Yes. Do

remember? Do you want to work outside? Do want to work at heights? It was literally that, be fair. So hopefully that communication improves.

Sharon (38:59)

But I think

you're right, I think there's something about, yeah, what are the career pathway, if somebody does want to take that music interest. Yes, there's going to be some very obvious things that they can do with that. But there's going to be some less obvious ones. And it's about raising the profile of those, isn't it? agree.

PJ Ellis (39:20)

100 % if off the back of those things, not necessarily different options come from a work perspective, but also you're gonna learn these life lessons as well around resilience, emotional intelligence, these things I've written down here, making sure everyone's got each other's back. I think that's so important. I love that. What gives you confidence when things get tough, Sharon?

Sharon (39:37)

Yeah.

Gosh.

Well, I suppose it depends if you're asking that from a personal point of view. So I'm a person of faith. So that is the kind of lens that I look at things through. So that's, that's kind of a rock for me. But I do think alongside that, you know, having some attention to our kind of how we stay sane, everything else is going around us. So well being really, you know, what what kind of rhythms and habits we put in place. So pickleball is the thing that I have discovered we could

do a whole thing about that. But then I think what gives me confidence.

PJ Ellis (40:11)

of that.

Sharon (40:14)

in kind of the professional space is the creativity I see around me, both in my team and across the city of Birmingham, to kind of know whatever challenge does come our way. So yes, we had COVID, now we've got employers national insurance contributions, that'll be whatever coming next, you know, but I'm confident that we just kind of take whatever that one is and kind of go to the next thing.

Andy Dawson (40:36)

So a final reflection for me then a favour to ask you Sharon. So I just love the, take the opportunity. Don't overthink, believe in yourself. We all need more cheerleaders. That was a lovely message and I'm sure that I'll make it onto the socials PJ, won't it? I'm meeting Saqib as well in a couple of weeks time. And one of the things I'm talking to him about is to come on here because education is a key theme.

Sharon (40:56)

Okay.

Andy Dawson (41:02)

I'm not sure he'll say yes, but if you give him a nudge, share your experience, then maybe when I talk to him, he'll say yes. So that's, that's the fave I'm going to ask him.

Sharon (41:05)

I'll give him a nudge.

I am

literally writing that down now because I owe him an email after our coffee last week so I will do my job and hopefully he'll be on.

Andy Dawson (41:15)

I'm glad it's not good.

PJ Ellis (41:20)

I didn't think we were giving our guests actions to take away. Takeaways are really important for us on these conversations, Sharon, and many a takeaway we will certainly take from this meeting. Never underestimate the power of hearing someone's story. And I think we can tell those stories through music, I really do.

Andy Dawson (41:23)

I don't ⁓

Sharon (41:24)

To-do list from podcast.

PJ Ellis (41:45)

When I do my radio presenting, I know it's not necessarily me playing music, but I suppose it's around music. But I find me being able to tell my own story, but also listen to others is such a powerful outlet and a thing to be around. So I appreciate you reminding me that. How friendships can build up in this space of creativity and music. mean, it's just absolutely amazing. Do you genuinely understand?

What an impact you and your team are making Sharon.

Sharon (42:11)

I think I need to remind myself of that and remind the team of that regularly. And so when I go to things like the Royal Albert Hall, the Symphony Hall, I have those kind of pinch me type moments of going, that's what you're all doing. When I see, you know, when I run into delegates that are on our safeguarding courses.

in our building and they tell me how amazing our trainers have been and that's going back into hundreds of schools across the city. But like anybody, it's very easy, isn't it? You kind of get stuck in the whatever's of the day job. So I think the more one of my things at the moment, actually, I've challenged myself this year is to make sure like a couple of times a month I'm out and about in the broader charity sector and therefore we get to talk about what we do and we get to

of enthuse and be passionate about it because I think that's an important reminder to me and then hopefully you know to the team that we do what we do and why we do it.

PJ Ellis (43:06)

100 percent and hear hear to that because I think the more stories we tell about the brilliant work that you're doing and how it's impacting people that we love and our future, the better. One last thing from me, throwing you under the bus a little bit. Are you reading at the moment?

Sharon (43:21)

Am I reading at the moment? I am reading at the moment. Yeah. I am reading the I went to see Jacinda Ardern in London recently. And she was, you know, through lockdown, how she led, I just found really inspirational how she led the people of New Zealand when she was doing her book tour launch recently. So that is the book I'm reading. Because I went to the launch and got the book as part of

PJ Ellis (43:22)

Yeah, what we saying?

Very nice.

There we go.

And would you recommend it so far?

Sharon (43:46)

I would recommend it, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

PJ Ellis (43:48)

I mean, very different

in my house. I'm reading Thursday Murder Club at the moment.

Sharon (43:52)

Okay, I

have read those books as well. is I'm not to be honest, unless I'm on holiday or whatever, I am not a big reader. I just haven't got time. But so that is the one that is on the go at the moment. And then it will flip to a Thursday murder club esque type book.

PJ Ellis (44:05)

Yeah, it's

the only one I can cope at the moment. ⁓ Sharon, we could talk forever. None of us can, unfortunately. We've got busy days, haven't we? So thank you so much for joining us. I've taken so much from that. I really, really do appreciate it and you. Thank you, Sharon.

Sharon (44:08)

Thank

No thank you, I've really enjoyed it. Good to be here.

Andy Dawson (44:20)

Thank you.

PJ Ellis (44:22)

Yes.

Thank you.