Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G. And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today our special guest is Jeanette Reaver. Jeanette is the program manager of Animal Crimes and Investigations and Global Animal Rescue and response for both the Humane Society of the United States and Humane Society International. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me.

Can you first let people know kinda like your path, what brought you to where you're at, and then what it is that you do at HSUS and HSI?

I. Sure. So I started off with a degree in animal science and I've always had a passion for animals in general, of course. In 1996 I moved to Chester, South Carolina. Supposed to be for a very short stint for, um, to help with animal control, get them on, um, on board. I was there two weeks when I did my first dog fighting investigation, and I can tell you now that I missed so much stuff because there was no training back then. There was a lot of stuff that we missed, and I think that's why I'm so passionate now about training. About a year and a half later, I went to DC Animal Control, and I worked in the District of Columbia, a lot of dog fighting, a lot of, um, of course cruelty investigations really fueled my passion for being in the field and helping these animals. I then was the, uh, deputy chief and, uh, an animal control officer in Loudoun County, Virginia, and was there for about nine years until 2009 when I went to Humane Society of United States and became the dog fighting expert and now working globally on working dog fighting investigations alongside law enforcement.

Cool. And you are very well known because I was talking to somebody a few days ago about dog fighting, um, a animal control officer, and I said that I was gonna be doing an interview with a dog fighting expert. And she goes, "oh, Jeanette?". So that's great. So you are very well known and I'm super excited that to have you here. I'm also super excited that I've gotten to learn some stuff from you, so you're a great resource. We were just in Mexico doing some training for different states within Mexico, so that was awesome. And my very first dog fighting case in South Carolina, that's still pending, so we cannot talk about it, but. That case was a pretty large case, and it was my first exposure to it. So I was really happy to have had you there, kind of like mentoring me along the way to, to help me with some stuff. I think everybody, we, we all learned from each other during that. During that case.

Exactly.

So let's talk about dog fighting. Let's start with kind of like the basics. Like what constitutes dog fighting.

Well, dog fighting, it's important to understand there's different levels of dog fighters. You've got your street level dog fighters and then you have your organized, so when you're talking about street level dog fighters, these are individuals who, um, predominantly males and predominantly under the, around the ages of 12 to 19, maybe early twenties. And these are are individuals that go out and they have any kind of pit bull type dog. They don't care if the dogs got any papers. They don't care if it's even an American pit bull terrier. They basically will just have the dogs fight. There's no rules. They just go until either one dog dies, quits, or they pick the dog up. Now on the other flip side of that is organized dog fighters. And these are individuals who are known for the bloodlines that they breed. Um, they have specific bloodlines of dogs. They only use American Pit Bull Terriers, which is abbreviated as A P B T. And these dogs are, are basic conditioned for anywhere from six to eight weeks before a fight. So it's very strict, very regimented like you would see with any other type of, um, sporting activity. And these dogs are worth anywhere from $5,000 all the way up. There was one where an individual in an F B I case was offered a million dollars for his dog, and the guy laughed and said, "get outta here, I can make that in breedings alone". So these individuals can make a substantial amount of money when we're talking about dog fighting.

That's amazing. And one of the things is like a lot of people say pitbulls are not a breed, but I would think that in this scenario, pit bulls are very much so a breed. Right. What can you tell us about like their pedigrees and stuff?

So with the American Pitbull Terriers, they have been bred and they've been actually documented in, in a pedigree that was started by the American Dog Breeders Association in 1909. And they started this registry because they wanted to legitimize the, the dogs, they wanted to keep track of the dog's lineage, their wins, their losses. And as I said, each dog fighters can have their specific bloodline that they like to use. So basically keep track so that you know what you're looking for. It also tells you if the parents come from winning, winning bloodlines, what weights the dogs are gonna be. 'cause when you're talking about dog fighting, you have very specific characteristics. It's not like if you go out to buy a poodle or a dachshund, you're just looking for, you know, whether it's show quality or whether it's pet quality. In dog fighting, they don't care about confirmation. They care about how hard the dog bites. They care about if the dog is what's called game, game is when the dog has the drive and desire to continue to fight, even when even mortally injured. And that's what they're looking for. They're looking for very specific traits in these dogs that as a, a normal and compassionate human being would never want, um, would want to exploit in these dogs.

And these dogs are basically treated like athletes, right? Like they have regimens for exercise and diet. How do people come up with those things and how can you identify what those are?

So that's a great question. Um, a dog that is gonna be conditioned for a fight. So, um, Dr. G say that you and I are gonna match our dogs. We're gonna agree upon the time, the place, and then we're gonna put down a deposit. It's, it's called a forfeit. And a third person's gonna keep that. So if we're gonna be matching our dogs at 8:00 PM um, say eight weeks from now, I'm gonna start to condition my dog, um, at around 8:00 PM so that he knows that 8:00 PM rolls around, its showtime. Now we're not training these dogs to fight. They've either got the drive and desire, or they don't, you cannot train a dog to fight. Um, it's something that these dogs are bred that's physically bred into them. And so what you're doing is getting them physically fit. You're getting them, um, trained so that they can have the endurance and they can fight for three and a half to four hours at a time. And, uh, I dunno if anybody here has ever done kickboxing or done sparring in the ring, but let me tell you after a minute, you think that it's been, you know, 20, 30 minutes. It's, it's very grueling. So you can just imagine with these dogs how long that goes. So the most common practice they use is either using what's called a slap mill, which is basically a self-propelling treadmill that's designed for dogs with sides on it. Um, they may do road work, which means they'll either have the dog run beside a car, maybe they'll be beside a bike, and these dogs will go for 10 to 15 miles a day, six days a week. So you're basically getting them so these dogs have, um, what's called air in the lungs, meaning that they're gonna be able to, to go for hours on end. Um, one important thing to point out too is with these pit bull type dogs is when when you watch these videos of these dogs fighting, You can actually see that the dogs check in with their handle or their owner, and they'll have, uh, a very distinct click, or a whistle or a snap, and they'll start calling out to the dog and you'll see the dog will basically get a second wind and continue to fight. So oftentimes these dogs are continuing and get a second wind, if you will, um, simply because they wanna please their handler, their owner. They're very much for wanting to get acceptance and approval from their handler. Now, because these dogs do fight and they fight face-to-face, it brings up a really important, um, aspect on here is the signs of the injuries. And Dr. G as you witnessed, these dogs are gonna have injuries that are consistent with dog fighting. It's gonna be on the face, the front legs are gonna be most common. You may find injuries on the back legs, such as the stifle, but in the beginning, these dogs, when they're first released in the pit, in the the fighting area, As soon as they're released, they immediately go to their opponent. And this is because it's, it's a frontal attack. Unlike injuries that you may see with two dogs that get into a fight, you may see that there's injuries on the face, you may see that there's injuries on the back of the neck, maybe the romp. But dogs that are not bred specifically for fighting will not, um, continue to fight until, um, they won't continue to fight even after they're exhausted. Even if you have two very dog aggressive dogs, they're going to stop at some point. They just don't have the physical capacity. So the things that we look for is injuries that are on the face, the front legs. How severe is the scarring? Is it one where it's, it's, um, devastating bites there? So if you look at a dog, even if you Google a dog that was rescued from a dog fighting pit, and you look at them, you'll see they have these white flicking or, or looks like scarring on the face. Sometimes it's just gonna be discoloration of the hair. That's because when, uh, a dog is bitten, it's a traumatic injury that that destroys the hair follicles. So when that hair goes back, it's gonna grow back white or very light. That's why it's easier to see any kind of injuries on a darker colored dog. Uh, case we recently did in Australia, they actually sedated the dogs and we clipped the dogs. And sometimes you wouldn't see the injuries, but as soon as these dogs were clipped, the amount of scarring was immense on these dogs. You saw a lot of damage to the skin, a lot of raised hair that was covered up. Now the dogs aren't started to fight until they're about 18 months to pre preferably two years of age. So it's not uncommon if you go to somebody's property and you think, you know, I think you may be fighting dogs and say it's a bunch of younger dogs. They don't, they'd be either very minimal scarring or no scarring. It's gonna be important to take into account the age of the dogs because they typically will not start full-blown fighting and, and, uh, rolling, which is a term used to describe short fights, getting them conditioned until they're about two years of age. So all of these things come into account, um, of the reasons why maybe they're not, not showing clinical signs or, or visual signs of dog fighting.

So I, on one of the videos that you had sent me of dog fighting, one of the things that I found really, um, interesting was the fact that it, it looked like it was almost in slow motion, right? So the, the dogs latched onto each other and then they were just standing there, almost dancing in place attached to each other. And then they let them be like that for a few minutes, and then they used a bite stick to separate 'em, and then they let him go back at it. So I think that people think of dog fights, like, you know, it happens and it's really quick and that it's done, but it, that doesn't seem to be the case all the time, right?

Exactly. And if you, if you've ever seen a dog fight, it's, it's, uh, especially an organized dog fight, it's horrific. Um, before I started doing these investigations, I thought that the dogs would be screaming in pain. They would be, you know, try, it would be fast-paced, which is quite the contrary. Typically, you don't hear the dogs. Maybe in the beginning you hear some yiping, they're excited. Um, you'll hear that, but you don't. There's very little noise coming from the dogs vocalizing after the fight starts. So, just like your MMA fighters, your boxers, dogs are gonna have their favorite fight styles or holds. And so, like some of the videos I sent you, you may have one that's called a head dog. And this is a dog who likes to focus on the head. So they'll, they'll grab a hold of their opponent's head on the muzzle, and that's their favorite spot. So you may see that a dog as, uh, one dog may have a hold of his paw. His opponent has a hold of his muzzle or his face, and they're not moving. So basically they're just, they're, they're putting a tremendous amount of pressure, bone crushing pressure. And if the dogs don't break, or if they're, if, if they're, they're outta holds, they will say to the referee to break your dogs, you'll remove them to the other side of the pit and they'll let them go. So it is, it isn't one where, you know, where it's fast paced, where the dogs are moving the whole time. It can be something, uh, where a dog is trying to struggle to get out of a hold and another dog has got just horrendous pressure on his opponent. And, um, and they'll, it's not uncommon for the dogs to, you know, they'll leave them there for, you know, 20, 30 minutes where these dogs are bleeding out and they'll continue to fight because they know they're not picking up the dog because he's not of any use. If the dog didn't do well in the pit, they'll just leave 'em.

Going back a little bit to conditioning, one of the things that I did wanna discuss was some people think that conditioning involves the use of so-called bait dogs. And I hate the term because I think that a lot of people make a lot of money out of saying, oh, rescued from a dog fighting ring, and it's a bait dog just because it has injuries and that kind of stuff. So what can you tell us about bait dogs?

That is one of the biggest myths out there. And again, I used to believe this because it was all the bait dog myths started in the eighties and it has been perpetuated to this day. And there are people that are, that I know well that still believe the bait dog myth. And the reason why it's such a myth is one, um, it's even been written about in dog fighting magazines and people make fun of the bait dog myth. But when you think about it, if you use a dog of lesser quality for a dog that's gonna be an opponent, that dog's gonna give no, um, it's, it's not gonna give any kind of challenge. So I like to equate it to, um, Mike Tyson is coming back for, he's coming in to do his boxing and I'm his sparring partner. Now I'm gonna give him no, no kind of challenge. There's, you know, I'm basically gonna run out of the pit. Um, he's not gonna catch me type thing. So it's the exact same thing with, with, with bait dogs. Bait dogs are ones that have been made up, um, by well-meaning people. And oftentimes people say, I have a bait dog. I found this dog on the street. He is covered in scars from head to toe. He's got fresh injuries and wounds. And they even send pictures. And you say, okay, that, that's definitely appears to be consistent with dog fighting. And they'll think they're bait dogs because they'll bring the dog inside. He sleeps with the children. He loves the cat. He, he's great with other dogs. They get 'em neutered and he's part of the family. So they're thinking. There's no way that this sweet dog could be such a monster. And so that's where it comes into play. That, that you have to understand there is a distinct difference between gameness and dog aggression. So dog aggression is when a dog may be possessive of a person. Maybe he, he or she doesn't like other dogs. Gameness is when you put that dog into the pit, it's almost like a light switch comes on. And as soon as you face that dog off, he knows it's time to work. So, There's, uh, some of the most famous dog fighters have dogs. Um, one, one really good example that you can research is, uh, is Gambler, and that is Bob Loomis. And with his dog, Virgil Virgil was a five time winner, and Virgil would kill any dog in the pit. He was, was notorious to having, just, just in decimate his opponents. Yet there's a, a homemade video of Virgil. Um, after he retired, he made his owner an incredible amount of money, basically put him on the maps. And so you let rg he let Virgil jump out of the thing. He went through all the dogs, the fighting dogs that are on the chain. Not a problem. If you had those exact same dogs that were in a pit and faced off to one another, we'd have, they would've, Virgil would've, would've killed his opponent or, or extreme, or extremely hurt them. Virgil also, um, slept with cats and there's videos and just a bunch of stuff on here. Virgil with other dogs. Um, Golden King is another very well-known dog fighter who's got a bunch of grand champions. These are dogs as won five fights or more with no losses, and those dogs walk with other dogs. But again, you put those exact same dogs in the pit and they're gonna kill that dog. So there's a distinct difference between gameness and dog aggression. I'm not saying that every dog, um, that that comes outta the pit, that you're gonna be able to put them together. Some are game and dog aggressive and you just cannot have them with others. But the majority of the time, these dogs, after they're spayed and neutered, put into the right homes, um, usually it's gonna be male and female, um, dogs, and they, they live very well together. Most of my PowerPoint that, that you've seen, Dr. G, is it shows there, the, the, the majority of the dogs that I show went on to live with multi, multi-species homes.

That was one of the things that I found most interesting at that dog fighting case that we went to is that I was a little bit concerned as far as safety, right? So we're going to get into a place that there's potentially, first the safety of the people as far as with the individuals that are fighting these dogs. Like, are we gonna get there? And we're gonna get shot at, like, what's gonna happen? But then once we start getting these animals, are they gonna start trying to attack us or bite us? And it was amazing how none of those dogs were acting aggressive against us. And some of them did not care about the other dogs that were around them. And some of them definitely looked like they hated some specific dog, uh, like there was, uh, something there. So, so yeah, I got to see firsthand how these dogs were really looking for us, if anything, to for attention. And that is really important because they have to be able to be in a pit with their owner and not redirect the aggression at them. Right. So I know that there's even some, some things that are used for exercising them that are more like game, right? To try to create a bond with them. Like what are, what are the kind of things that they do to help strengthen that bond?

So, um, uh, just to add real quickly on what you said about getting the dogs off the pit that is, or off the chain, um, is one of the ways that they train these dogs, or I should say condition these dogs is by having them in super close confinement. And as you've seen, in other cases, the dogs will be inches apart from each other. It's called chain circles where the dog's chain that dirt spot is basically his entire life. And so being so close to these dogs, being to one another, they're terriers, of course, they're very high and high energy. They're frustrated 'cause they're on a chain. They're frustrated because they want to run. It's, it goes against any quality they have. And so having someone beside you that's barking constantly, it's like, it's like being in a, a, an endless car ride with your brother or sister and is constantly just knackering back and forth at one another. When you take these dogs off, off the chain and you put them against their opponent, they're so, they have so much built up frustration that just the housing itself is enough to help with conditioning these dogs, to, to bring out the, the qualities. Some other things they will do, um, is what's called a flirt pole. A flirt pole is if you take a long stick or a pole, be something as simple as a string on the end, and you tie on it, either cow hide, deer hide, or something of substantial quality and you basically flick it on the ground. That dog is going to lock onto that and he's gonna try and catch it. And so what dog fighters are doing is one, is, uh, you're, is is getting that bond. Um, you're, you're bonding with that dog. Number two, the dog is going to, it's gonna help build up the eye coordination because if you're flicking this around, um, he's gonna build up a eye coordination. So when it is time for him to go in the pit and say, your dog tries to be sneaky and grab my dog stifle, he's got that eye coordination built up and he's gonna see it coming counter and get a better hold on your dog. See, and obviously the, and the main thing here is that it's your building up the endurance also. So it's a win-win. It's important to point out that just because you have, um, say a treadmill or flirt pole does not mean you're a dog fighter. Um, you have to put the pieces together. It's the totality. Dogs with fresh or old scarring. What do you have there? So it's, I don't want people to think that you have a, you have a pit bull and you have a flirt pole then you're a dog fighter. That's not, that's not how the law works. Um, other methods they may use, and we'll see this more down south, they're, you know, in the islands and such, they'll have swim tanks where they'll, they'll have the dog swimming in there. They may have 'em in a pond or in a lake. Will tie them out there to swim. There's different variations that they can use. They also have what's called roll dogs. Now rolling, as I said previously, this is a very short, controlled fight, um, between dogs. The older the dogs get, the little bit longer it goes. During this process, they're gonna weed out the dogs who don't make the cut. Maybe a dog that is, um, that's, uh, that's, they'll, the term it is looking at the clock, like constantly looking at the pit wall, looking for a way out. Um, or a dog that maybe doesn't wanna fight. He doesn't, he's, even though he's bred from impeccable bloodlines, he doesn't have the gameness. So the dogs may be, um, they'll, they're gonna cull any dog that doesn't have that ability. So once the dogs, they, they weed out the ones they know they're gonna keep, they're gonna continue this process until they have the best outta the quality. This is going to be, um, they'll use, typically they'll take dogs that either are to, are past their prime, but yet they've still their game. And they can still throw a young dog around. They're gonna use what's called roll dogs. And these are fighting dogs that just aren't gonna be put into the pit anymore. They can do short fights, but they just don't have the capacity for these long-term fights. So you'll see that they'll be put in there with roll dogs, um, or other dogs to, um, you know, to kind of weed them out. And the methods that they use to, to cull these dogs or kill these dogs is typically electrocution, um, hanging, which takes anywhere from eight to 12 minutes on average. Um, drowning, I mean, just the most barbaric methods you can think. These people are just, you know, derelicts of society. They, they have no problem with abusing humans, let alone an animal.

And speaking of that, I mean, People that are involved in dog fighting are usually involved in other crimes as well, right? As there's like human trafficking and child pornography and that kind of stuff. So what are the, what are the dangers to society from people that are involved in dog fighting?

Um, that is 100% true. Dog fighting is considered a cluster crime, meaning just like with child molestation, just like with domestic violence, it's typically not just one crime you're associated with. So dog fighting studies have shown, and the FBI actually, two analysts recently did a, a paper on this and it demonstrates that there is a, a distinct link with people who commit violent acts against animals and against humans. So when dog fighting in particular, it's, it's been shown over and over these individuals very, very commonly are involved in other nefarious activities, um, domestic violence, child abuse, um, very common that we see child molestation or child pornography found on computers. Um, human trafficking. The cartel has really started to put, put a foothold more. We're seeing it mostly with cockfighting, but we, of course, it is very, very prevalent with the cartel, um, in other countries. But we're seeing it start to move more into the United States like we are with cockfighting. Um, Using people for this, but it is one where this is not just about the animals. Um, we emphasize this a lot to law enforcement or federal agencies when we'll say, um, you know, if you're looking for people that are dealing large quantities of drugs, if you're looking for people that are making bombs or involved in hate groups, most of the time they are also involved in dog fighting. The best way to get, um, to get to these people in the conduit is to use the animal fighting investigation. get in there. that's how one of the major F B I and dog fighting cases was back in 2016. 367 dogs were seized. And these were from individuals that had, had done murders for hires. They had allegations of human trafficking, domestic violence and, murders. Um, so there was a lot the, we're talking about people that were just horrible in society in general. So this one, um, started off where they couldn't get these people for drugs. Um, they got a allegation for, um, murder for hire, and turned into, into a case where, uh, we ended up taking, we hit eight states and between the ASPCA and HSUS, we took possession of all the dogs, which at the time was 367. After it was all said and done, there was hundreds of puppies that were born. Um, so put the, the number up there, um, just under 500 dogs after all was said and done with the breeding and such. But that really took a lot of really horrible people off the streets that were not only just a danger to humans, but of course to animals.

That's one of the things that the ACO that I was talking to, she said that one of the issues that she was having with her case is that it was in multiple states, right? So she is an animal control officer here in Ohio, so she can handle some of this stuff going in Ohio, but there were some other stuff in other states. So how do those, uh, multi-state cases get, get managed?

So the multi-state cases, um, can be difficult. So what I would strongly recommend is get in touch with the agency called O I G, and that's the Office of Inspector General. Now the O I G agents, they're, they're sworn just like any other agent. Um, they have the same. They're on this exact same training, et cetera. Um, but they are sworn under federal law that they are to enforce not only food stamp fraud, but also animal fighting cases. And, as you know, they're really taking a strong, strong stance against animal fighting, both dog fighting and cockfighting. In, South Carolina, there has been a large number of dog fighting cases. Recently, Kentucky. There was recently a cockfighting case in Ohio. You have an outstanding federal agent, Mark Barnhart, who and who he does all the dog fighting. So basically, even if they don't take the case, they can work with law enforcement and get them working with other agencies. Of course we can also help at HSUS, we can also help with putting them in touch with people, getting touch with other agencies and building up the evidence that is needed. Um, not law enforcement of course, but we can help, um, facilitate between law enforcement and get some interest there. But the federal agencies is an excellent way. Normally do you have the three, um, three letters behind your name and special agent? Um, it, it helps get buy-in from law enforcement, but it also, you have those other agents and other states.

And dog fighting is a felony in all 50 states, is that right?

Yes, and it's a, it's also a felony to fight dogs for federal level. It's a federal misdemeanor to be a spectator. And 16, and under the age of 16, it's also a federal felony to bring a child to a dog fight or cockfight. So any kind of animal fighting venue. And unfortunately, we see this quite a bit. If I may add, we see this quite a bit where children are indoctrinated into this, especially little boys. There was one case in particular many, many years ago. Um, little boy was eight years old. His father, um, had hung one of his dogs that didn't do well in the pit. He went to school resource officer, he was devastated. He was so upset. He ended up confiding in the school resource officer and we tried to get local law enforcement to do something. Unfortunately, nothing happened. Move forward to now. The individual has moved so many times that once you get interest, he, he moves. Um, but, um, his son is now involved in dog fighting. So it's one where you have this compassionate little boy who has just been, you know, pushed into this lifestyle and is now following his father's footsteps. So this is one that you'll see is the children unfortunately get caught up in this lifestyle and they go right down the same, the same path, just like you will with domestic violence. It's, it's learned violence.

I've seen that personally because growing up in Puerto Rico, cockfighting is a big thing and it, it, it hurts me. And when we went to Mexico, bull fighting is a big thing and people see the, the animal abuse, but it's hidden behind the veil of culture. Well, this is part of our culture. So yeah, we like animals, we love animals. We want laws to protect animals, but leave our cockfighting alone. Leave our bull fighting alone and that kind of stuff. And yeah, that's one of the things that I see as kinda like this desensitization, if anything. Mm-hmm. Uh, to animal killing, because regardless of how you wanna call it, it is just animal abuse and animal killing in a barbaric way.

If I may add to that, there is also a belief that dog fighting or cockfighting is only done in rural countries or in, in the inner cities, which is not true. Dog fighting in particular, it doesn't matter race, color. Um, females participate just as, um, not as much, but females. One of the top in the nation is a female dog fighter who's also an animal control officer. So there are these individuals that, um, you can't say, okay, this is a white female. She drives a red Corvette. There's no way she's into dog fighting. That is not the case. You can't say because someone of their religious or their economic status, you, you can't discount anybody. Also with dog fighting, because these dogs are so quiet when they're in the pit, you can have a dog fight in a multimillion dollar McMansion that is maybe six feet away from the neighbor and nobody will hear it. So it's one that you can't say these, these individuals aren't involved in dog fighting. There's no way they're pillars of society or, or they're a coach or they're a teacher. Um, we've seen all walks of life do this. So it's important to recognize that anybody can be involved in dog fighting and not to discount just 'cause of who they are or their physical appearance.

Here, you know, as a, as a veterinarian, every now and then you see a dog and then you get kind of concerned about could this be a dog from a dog fighting and that kind of stuff. But then also the, the other side of that is that dogs are dogs, and dogs will get into fights. So I don't want people to be concerned that if their dog is a pit bull or a pitbull type breed and it has scars or it got into a fight that they're going to go into a veterinary clinic and they're automatically going to call the police. 'cause especially Ohio is now a mandatory reporting state. So if we see or believe that there's negligence or abuse or cruelty, we are mandated to, to report that crime. But it's not, you know, again, dogs will get into fights. It's all about seeing patterns and, and that kind of stuff. What are going to be the injuries that we're going to expect from a dog fight that it's more to dogs getting into a fight as opposed to dogs that are trained for dog fighting.

Right. And it's not just the scarring that you're looking for. So exactly like you said, it's not gonna be just that one incident. If it's truly dog fight, there'll be other evidence there. And I'm a big believer if you see something, say something, whether it's a human that's being abused or you have any kind of concern, same thing as animals, children, and the elderly. These, they're, they're just like animals in the sense that they can't report it. They're, they're afraid. Um, so it's so important that you be the advocate and you, you bring any kind of concerns. I'd much rather investigate and find that it's not dog fighting than have there be a hundred calls come in and, and miss that one. So, um, definitely if you see something, say something.

In Ohio, the law that mandates us to report also protect against reporting in good faith. I always tell like fellow veterinarians, because a lot of people are afraid to say something because of the repercussions. But it's not about saying we're we're not blaming somebody, we're not accusing somebody. All we're asking is for a checkup. Like whether it be a wellness check, just whatever. And, and realistically people that are doing things in good faith usually appreciate that checkup, right? Like the veterinarian cared enough about my family and my dog to send somebody to see what's going on. Usually the people that are gonna be angry and complain are gonna be the people that are doing something sketchy. 'cause that's just the, the way that is. Uh, so are, are there any resources for veterinarians that want to learn more about the signs of dog fighting and kind of what things to look for at their clinic?

There is, HSUS offers free training to law enforcement. Obviously you are a, a, just a, a very highly coveted instructor for us. But I think it's so important for, um, for veterinarians, for law enforcement, animal control, for people who are in the field, they have to learn what to look for plus learn what some of the, um, what some of the people may say, I'm not fighting my dogs. All this evidence here paraphernalia is 'cause I do weight pulling, whether it's, there's, that's two totally different things, not only from the one time winner versus the point rating system when you're talking about wins, um, to the, the amount of, of, uh, weights that's being pulled. So it's so important that, that you get to know, um, everybody in your community, especially if you're a veterinarian, law enforcement, um, non-sworn law enforcement. I. Make friends, make friends outside of your jurisdiction and then know what to look for, know what, what is out there, whether it's online training that's, um, that, that we do, there's some really good resources out there pertaining to that offers training. Also make sure that it's accredited and up to date. Um, if someone starts talking about bait dogs or someone starts talking about trunking, then that, that's, that, that is antiquated information that has been disproved over and over. So we try and make sure that, that the information we provide is gonna be germane and specific to your location and to their, um, for example, in Ohio, like you said, you guys are now, um, uh, mandatory reporters, so that's gonna be imperative that veterinarians and their staff feel comfortable, um, on what they can report. Um, there's so many, um, nuances there such as, you know, animals. Uh, They may say, my dog broke a bone when, uh, he was running in the field, but yet the dog's covered in scars to take an x-ray. And you can actually see the, the bite wounds in there. So there's things that, that they should look for. Um, but the main thing is, is if if you feel like you, you have dog fighting, you're not getting anywhere, you can reach out to me, um, my contact information is available for anybody. It is 100% confidential and there have been cases where law enforcements reach out and ask me, will I testify in court and or write an expert opinion? And it's just simply, there's not enough evidence there or it's not dog fighting, um, that they're looking at. But again, I take it as you said in the beginning of the podcast, that everything is learning opportunity. I learn something new all the time. Working with you, I've, I've learned stuff. So I think it's important that people keep an open mind and uh, and remember that you are always learning every single day is a learning opportunity.

I always start my forensic lectures with one of my favorite TV shows ever was House and he was always saying People lie. And so I start with a picture of Dr. House, and I say People lie because whether it's on purpose or by omission, you have to hear the history, but you have to do the examination. You have to make the observations, and then you have to make an objective, uh, interpretation of what you're seeing. It doesn't mean that the person is lying. It, it means that it's just information that you're getting, and then you have to put everything together. Another favorite show is CSI, and Grissom always says the evidence doesn't lie, so I just kind of put those things together. It's like, we're gonna listen to the history, we're gonna take it into consideration, but we've gotta look at the evidence and we have to see what's going on. As you said, just seeing a treadmill doesn't mean that somebody is training dogs for fighting, just seeing vitamins in somebody's house, seeing creatine or whatever. But then you start putting everything together and then you're going to, to get into. Knowing that that is potentially what's, what's happening. Um, so, uh, one of the things actually that you just brought up that I had not heard before until, uh, one of the presentations that you sent me was this whole thing about trunking. So can you tell people what that is?

Sure. So, um, I think it was right around the, the late nineties people, um, the, what all started with, let me back up a little bit. Um, there were two dogs that were found in a trunk, and the dogs, uh, were coming back from Michigan, heading down to, to Tennessee. And as they're traveling through West Virginia, a state trooper pulled them over and the, the taillight was flickering on and off, and the trunk was moving a little bit and there were smears of blood on, on the, the base of the trunk. So the trooper pulled the car over, he did a felony traffic stop thinking, oh my gosh, is there a body inside, you know, someone being transported? So when they pulled them over, they opened up the trunk and they found a deceased female pit bull. And then they found a male pit bull. Well, the media automatically said, oh my gosh, there, it's, it's a new trend called trunking. This is where you put the dogs in the trunk and you fight. Well for, for this to happen, um, for actual dog fighting, the, the pit has to be 14 by 14 up to 20 by 20, it's a spectator sport, the dogs have to have mo room to move around. So it just doesn't make sense. If something doesn't make sense such as bait dogs, trunking, then, then it, it just, it's not real. So the media dubbed this as the Samson and Delilah. Um, these dogs were, were used for fighting when in all actuality, um, in in organized dog fighting, these dogs are fought male to male, female to female at an exact weight. So with these dogs, not only were these different sex, but different sizes. And what happened was this individual was transporting his dog back to, uh, back to Tennessee. And so one of the, the females had died and the male, he was gonna try and patch up and he was going to use him again for breeding and then for future fighting. So what dog fighters have started to do now, and we discovered in 2016, Is that the, I use this term loosely. The gentleman thing to do is if I'm hosting a dog fight, and if, if your dog dies, you're not allowed to take your dog with you. We, um, I've got a, a pit, I'm gonna dispose of the dogs. And if you have a dog that's really messed up, um, and you're, you're not, you're gonna end up culling this dog anyway, I will have a hanging pole outside and I will put everybody's dog out there and hang them, take them down the next day. So trunking is one again that the media, um, capitalized on and people believe it because it's in the media. They're saying, oh my gosh, of course they're trunking. There has never been a confirmed case of trunking. There has never been one, um, that has happened. The problem when you see people talk about trunking, bait dogs, or feeding, feeding dogs gunpowder, Is that you have these street level dog fighters that hear this and they're like, oh, okay, so this is the new trend. This is what I'm gonna start to do. And that's what happens is it gives people ideas and then when, and the worst thing also is if you go to court and you believe this is true and you testify in a case and you get discredited and then you have no credibility in the courts. So trunking is, is another huge myth that has just been, been way too long in the media. And it's unfortunate. We're trying to get people where, you know, where we've, where it's no longer that other people are using it. Um, we're trying to dispel all the myths out there.

Another myth is the whole filing their teeth. Right? So what can you tell us about that?

So Dr. Melinda Merck, she's the author of two books on veterinary Forensics. And she actually talked about that in her second book. And oftentimes, and again, I used to believe it up until I started investigating full-time, I used to see these dogs and I would think, oh my gosh, their, their teeth were filed down and they are used for bait dogs. And, but when you look at virtually any dog who is either chained outside or is in a very barren environment, maybe they're, they, they're, they've just got rocks and a doghouse. Dogs become frustrated 'cause they're very social animals, especially when they're chained. It's an unnatural form of confinement. So the dogs will start to bite on, on rocks. They'll chew on rocks, they'll chew on their dog house, they'll start to chain chew dog fighters, um, oftentimes will post and they'll say, need help. Um, just put my boy out in the chain. And he's starting to chain chew. So what happens is, is when they're chewing on these chains and they're pulling on them, they're literally eroding away at the tooth. And so when you look at it, the pulp is not exposed because it's a gradual, um, erosion of the teeth. Kinda like if you grind your teeth, how the teeth will get down to nubs. So, that'll happen in dog fighting. We'll see that very, very commonly, especially when the dogs after, usually they retire around six to eight, very short life that they're used for in, in the pit. But you'll very commonly see, someone will say, lost a cutter. She's used for retirement. So, um, what this means is, either she lost a canine tooth, either in a fight or either from chain chewing, and she loses it. But it literally looks like the teeth are filed until you open up that mouth and you see that it, it's ground down and the pulps not exposed. Unlike if you were to file the teeth, the pulp would be exposed 'cause it's not a gradual, erosion. The other thing is, is that, with, uh, the, the bait dog myth with filing down the teeth, the dog's mouth is gonna hurt. The dog's not gonna bite back. It just makes absolutely no sense to file this down. But again, there's scientific proof on the chain. Chewing and Dr. Merck's manual, um, her second edition,

and dogs, even when they have teeth that are worn down, their bite is still gonna hurt. So they're still gonna inflate some damage. Right, right. So it doesn't really make sense to just file him down because they're still gonna gonna cause some problems.

Right? Yeah. Um, as a matter of fact Ed Faron, one of his, uh, he's a two time convicted dog fighter and one of his dogs, um, uh, his name escapes right now. I think it might have been Vader, but. Someone, um, uh, came to purchase a dog from, from Ed Faron, and he laughed about this old dog on a chain and he said, let your dog go. So he let one of his, his younger dogs that he brought there for breeding. Um, anyway, he let the dogs go and his old dog with virtually no teeth killed his opponent, killed the, the other dog. This was just while he was on the chain. So, It makes no sense, um, to, to, you know, to do that. And typically you only see this on dogs that are on chains. And, and I encourage anybody, if you see a dog that's on a chain, especially if you're animal control, you're probably aware of this, but lift up those lips and you'll see either on the front, the teeth are, are worn down, um, or on the sides. It may just be one side where the dog is just so bored that they start chewing on chains. They chew on their doghouse rocks and it wears down those teeth. And sometimes it causes wave mouth, where you'll see it's kind of like a wavy motion, um, where they chew it. Most of my dogs are rescued from situations where it was very barren, um, or they were on chains and, um, most of them have the chain chain, you know, the, the worn teeth.

So we talked about how the street fighters will kind of like meet wherever, but these organized fighters are going to have more of a known ring that they are. So how are those things set up?

So if, um, it, it depends on where you're gonna be matching a dog. Um, say that I live, um, I live in South Carolina and you live in, in Ohio, so you may know of somewhere and you're gonna put out the word and say 38 pound female, east Coast. So what you're saying is, is you have a 38 pound female that you're willing to fight and you're looking to match on the east coast. So you may know somebody that's got an established area where, um, where we can bring six people each side, meaning that I can bring six people and you can bring six people, or you may know of a, a, a place where it's out in the field where you rent the property. And at any time, you know, you can call the farmer and say, Hey, we wanna use your barn, um, and he'll let you use it. And so basically, um, that's a set location. Or it may be somewhere where, um, we know there's a lot of heat in the area. We don't trust the people that's been hosting fights. So we may, um, we may set up something, may get a, a temporary, um, location, fight the dogs in a basement somewhere. Maybe it's an abandoned house. And we know that, um, that the, the guy that patrols the area, we know that he's not gonna come around from 12 to six. He's, he's, you know, in the other side of the, the county or whatever. And you may fight them there, but there are definitely areas, um, again, going back to the 367 case from, um, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, et cetera. Um, we knew that Donnie Anderson was providing set locations for years. And with this, he had an established dog fighting pit. He had multiple pits actually set up. He had someone at the gate that would take in the money as they come in. He had that service where if your dog, um, if you didn't wanna take your dog home, you're gonna cull your dog. He would have dogs. He would put on the, the, uh, hanging line. Um, he had places to dump the dogs. Um, very recently we worked on a case for an individual, um, worked at a mortuary. So after hours, he would turn off security cameras. Bring in a small group of people and they knew he would get whatever the entry fee was. It was, I think it was $50 per person. And then he would take any bodies if any of the dogs died, or they didn't want the dog, throw it into the, um, throw it into the incinerator. So the poor dog's in there. So, um, again, dog fighting can happen anywhere. It is so quiet. And what usually gives us away is large numbers of people cheering, um, or, uh, seeing dogs being carried out, um, that type of thing. But you don't need a lot of space. 14 by 14 is a sanction size pit, so it's really not that big. And it can be, you know, you can have a collapsible pit, take four sides, put carpeting down, you pull those sides down, you roll up your carpet, and it can go right back to a normal backyard.

We were talking about behavior wise, how these dogs tend to be really nice. I was talking a few weeks back with Dan Ettinger, host of the Animal Control report. He has an awesome podcast that it's primarily directed towards animal control officers, but themes for everybody. And he was discussing about people that shoot dogs, right? So kind of the how unnecessary in his eyes, and honestly in my eyes it is to, to shoot a dog. Like is there ever a reason to to shoot a dog? And I would think like some of, some people that think, think about these pit bulls from dog fighting and then pit bulls because they're used for dog fighting. They think that there are these like just horribly behaved aggressive dogs. Um, that, you know, that's kind of where, where you end up. So what is your, your thoughts on that as far as behavior? Their, their natural aggression, and do you think that there's ever a need or a dog so aggressive that you would have to shoot it?

Well, I can tell you when I went through the police academy in 2003, um, when we went through, we were, it was a, a five month program and we had 30 minutes that was, that was equated that we had animal training. And that 30 minutes was, was responding to do, uh, to a barking dog complaints. There was nothing in there about reading a dog's body language, absolutely nothing. Of course, I was animal control at the time, and I had a fit about it. I was constantly saying, you know, the, the state mandate question would be if a dog was to charge you, what is the proper response? And the state mandate for the Commonwealth of Virginia at the time was to eliminate the threat by shooting the dog. That it didn't say if it was a chihuahua, it didn't say if it was a, you know, huge Mastiff, if the dog was aggressive, that was what the mandate was. So I think a lot of these comes down to lack of training on law enforcement's part. And I'm not saying that law enforcement, of course it's not bad, but I'm saying that that. Oftentimes these smaller departments don't get the training they need. And also when law enforcement goes, say, if it's for, um, they're, they're tracking someone that is armed, um, you know, someone along those lines is that you can get almost like a tunnel vision where sitting back you can say, why didn't he get a fire extinguisher? Why didn't he, you know, he heard the dog toenails coming. Why didn't he put a foot on the door to stop the door from opening? And there's so many things. Um, what I think is, is wonderful now is that there's so many departments that is taking, taking the necessary steps to train their officers. Um, several years ago, the uh, animal Farm Foundation, In conjunction with the Chicago Police Department and Department of Justice, they did an entire section on training law enforcement. It's a, um, it's an internet, uh, format based, and it's in there on, and it shows you, when you walk up to a dog, like you'd walk up to a person, you're very, you got a, you know, you're very frontal, you're very authoritative, you stand up straight, um, you kind of square off with the person talking with them, and then the instructor, Ian Dunbar says, okay, now step back and approach this dog. Slightly turned, you know, basically contrary to what you're taught on how to approach a suspect and the difference. So I think that is a tremendous, um, a tremendous help there. Um, I have to be honest, sometimes I read about these reports and I just get sick to my stomach. You know, it was just, it's, uh, there's, there's no excuse. Other times I can understand from law enforcement perspective, um, but I do think that the owners also need to be held accountable when these dogs are running at large. Whether the dogs are quote unquote aggressive or not. The point is, is is the perception, uh, people call in this dog almost attacked my child. You know, it gives a heightened sense of alertness and I think that the owners also should be held accountable when a dog is at large, um, you know, be held in account for that. There's certain breeds that are always gonna have a stigma. Um, you know, any kind of pit bull breeds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, certain breeds. Unfortunately, we're gonna have that stigma and people are gonna walk on the other side of the street. And, and I think you need to take a a, uh, I know with some of the dogs I have, I take a much, um, I, I'm very, very cautious with my dogs because I know of their perception. So I'm very, very cognizant of other people. If I see a small dog, even though my big dogs live with tiny little dogs, I still walk on the other side of the street. I try and just be a good pet owner. I think that's what everybody needs to, to focus on and. Um, also is to make contact with law enforcement and especially if you're animal control humane officer, do free training for your police officers. They would greatly appreciate it. Um, something simple as an umbrella, or if you know you're going to a person's house and you know that they've got nasty dogs, or you know, this guy's a history of flinging, open his door and his dog charges out at you barking and, and causing a scene, then you know that you should bring animal control or maybe bring treats or, or do something to deflect that dog, that it's not only muscle memory to go for your gun and shoot the dog.

And we have to, we have to keep in mind the fact that not everybody grows up with dogs, right? Like we're used to working with dogs, we're used to seeing dogs. So like at my work, we deal with a lot of dogs that are farm dogs, some dogs that are aggressive dogs. So they come into the, into the unit to have surgery. And some of them want us dead. I mean, that's the best way to say it, but I've never felt in a way to where, oh my God, like I, I really need something to hurt this dog, or whatever. Like, there's always a way, and it is about reading the dog's body language. I mean, that is a, that is a really great point. It's like, if you know that the dog is scared, if the dog is like growling at you or showing you his teeth, you're not gonna keep moving forward. You're gonna take a step back and then you're gonna think and rethink your situation and try to figure it out. I think that, uh, that's one of the thing missing in a lot of these cases is that it's just like, let's move forward instead of thinking the, the process out. And I like how you say, you know, like, bring in an animal control officer, you know there are animals and you know that you're not prepared for it. Bring an ACO that perhaps may have a, even if it's needed, a catch pole or, or some way to, to help with controlling the dog. So it doesn't get to, to that point. 'cause unfortunately there are too many stories of good dogs that are shot just because the dog's just being a dog and. As you said, because the owner is just not being a good owner and thinks, oh, my dog is great with everybody, so it doesn't need a leash. It doesn't need to be next to me. You know, I'm just gonna leave it, leave it be. You don't know what your, how your dog's gonna react in situations. Plus you also don't know how another dog is gonna react. Uh, another issue that we see is like these little dogs that see a pitbull and then they're just like growling and barking and attacking like it's gonna eat the pitbull. And I tell them, I look those little dogs in the eyes and I tell them, this is how you die someday. 'cause this is not okay for you to be doing that. And, you know, and then if that little dog attacks the pitbull and keeps going and going and going, and then the pit bull just reacts, the little dog is gonna be in the losing end of that. Right? But who's gonna get, be at fault is gonna be the big dog because the big dog won the fight, even though the little dog is the one that started it. So if you are a good conscientious owner, you protect your dog from the dangers that are, that are around. Right. I, one of the things in, in Ohio, little by little we're starting to see B S L be removed, which is to me super important. So can you tell people kind of what B S L is about, what it means and why it's not? Okay.

Sure. So, BSL stands for breed specific legislation, and this is where a certain categories of dogs are targeted for being aggressive or, you know, not allowed, um, in the area. Um, I give an example. I know that, uh, a lot of places in Ohio, started repealed out, which is outstanding, is that some dogs are labeled as pit bulls, or they're labeled as, as, um, uh, massive type dogs that are not allowed. In Prince George's County in Maryland, they've had a pit bull ban for decades, uh, since back in, I wanna say 90, 94, 95. It's, it's been on there for decades. But, uh, they have an entire section that's dedicated to the, um, that's dedicated to pit bull type dogs. And there has been several people that have fought this and had their dogs DNA tested, and the dogs aren't even pit bulls. They're not even pit bull types, whether they're catahooulas, whether, you know, some dogs just have that appearance. So breed specific legislation is just another form of racism because you're categorizing, uh, something of how they look. Um, every dog is different. Every dog has their own personality and should be treated as an individual. So we at HSUS emphatically opposed breed specific legislation. It should be, um, for the dogs, if you're so worried about dogs being aggressive or running at large. Some of the things that you desperately should look into is anti chaining because chaining a dog makes 'em. Much more aggressive. Um, when the dog breaks off the chain and someone tries to get 'em back on or approaches the dog, the first thing he thinks is, I'm not going back on that chain. So, um, oftentimes when you look at these dogs, these fatal dog attacks and and stuff, it's um, for example, Diane Whipple with the two Presa Canaries. Um, the Presa of dogs. I mean, that was, that was absolutely horrific what happened to that poor woman. Not only that, but leading up to it, because it was the people's ownership of these dogs and lack of control and allowing these dogs to intimidate, um, intimidate the, the neighbors and law enforcement having their hands tied, that woman died a horrific death. And that's what we see is oftentimes it's, it's bad dog owners that, um, either raise the dogs to be aggressive, to be, for lack of a better term, like junkyard dogs or watch dogs. And they are aggressive towards the dogs and or they're chained and the children constantly go by taunt the dogs. The dog gets off the chain or gets outta that fence one day, and that's when tragedy strikes. So it's, it's heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking for the victims, for the dogs, and especially for the families that are excellent family, um, who love their companions, and then they get their animal taken away because of an appearance.

I always tell people it is definitely like the individual dog, right? One of the issues that I have with some of the pit bull advocates will say that, oh, you, you know, there are no breed specific characteristics for these dogs. And I think that that is a disservice because we are trying to take it all the way to the other extreme and we'll say, you know, these, these are, these characteristics can not be attributed to pitbulls or pitbull type dogs. But then we'll say, don't have a husky in an apartment because it runs a lot and it, and it does this and the other, you know, dalmatians or whatever, or Rottweilers or even chihuahuas, like anybody thinks about a biting dog and immediately the first word that comes outta somebody is chihuahua. Right? So there are trait characteristics for these dogs. I mean, a lot of them are prey driven. Um, so it's important to be careful as far as having them in a house with small dogs or cats or even kids that are running around. But it depends on the individual, because I have friends that have pitties with cats and the cats rule the pitties, right? Um, so. It's going to, you know, people that are advocates for the breed need to be honest and transparent about these dogs. 'cause the worst thing that can happen is to try to adopt the dog out and hide the fact that there are triggers, right? And then a trigger happens and then this dog hurts a child. And who is that gonna hurt? It's hurting the child. It's hurting the family that's never gonna wanna pit bull ever in their life. And it's hurting that dog that's probably going to get destroyed because the information was not, was not given out. You know, I, I have very strong feelings about the whole concept of, or the appearance of the no kill, just in that. We are trying to make it sound like no animal should be euthanized. And in a perfect world, absolutely, we should try to help every single animal that we can. But I see shelters and rescues that have these aggressive dogs and they're keeping them in cages and they're keeping them for so long, and then the dogs are getting even more crazy, and then they hide some of the behavioral problems before, you know, sending them to somewhere to potentially be dangerous. I mean, it, we have to do them, uh, a good service by saying the good characteristics of the breed, the things that we need to look for the breed, and then letting people make an educated decision on it. Like, not lie one way or the other.

Right, exactly. And, and, and when you brought up the, the no kill, there's a. Um, huge city, um, in the United States. I won't say which city it is, but they are now quote unquote no kill. And they're, the shelter should, I think it was 250 dogs. They're up to almost 700 dogs. There's dogs that are in the hallway that are in crates. They get walked once a week. They get moved from a clean crate to the dirty. And it is all, all a types of animals imaginable. And it is so unethical and so wrong for these animals. And like you said, some of 'em are there for years and years until they absolutely just start to deteriorate. They start to self mutilate. It. We're doing a gross disservice to these poor animals. So it's a, it's a really good point. And being, um, when we send dogs to placement partners, whether it's from the meat dog industry in Korea, or they're fighting dogs or, or rescue a fighting dog situation, we will be very upfront where they came from. Any kind of observations and sometimes you just can't, their, their dogs are either so, Mentally damaged, um, that the dog is either gonna be a danger of placed because he has to be managed so intensely or is just, it would just be cruel to, to keep this dog. 'cause they've just been through so much trauma in their life. And sometimes that's the only humane option is euthanasia. And even if you have to euthanize a dog that you save, um, for that type of situation, the fact that that dog didn't linger and die in horrific conditions that he was given, the chance was shown love, was given respect and kindness. And in the end he was, he received peace. That's what you need to focus on. And I think that's one of the hardest things as a rescuer is you feel like, like you failed the dog, which is not true. You can never feel that way. You rescued that dog from a horrific situation and sometimes that's the only humane option.

Yeah, I'm working on a, on a case currently that I cannot give a lot of details, but it is a rescue that took in a lot of animals, uh, a lot of dogs that were coming from kill facilities and they're trying to save these dogs from getting euthanized, and they just kept giving them to this rescue, and the dogs ended up dying and they died a horrific death. So, you know, it's, we have to be really aware. We're just passing the buck, right? Like, we don't wanna be responsible for euthanizing an animal, so then we wanna live in this fairytale that we took it somewhere else, and we, you know, save them from death. Sometimes it's kinder to be there with them and give them treats and give them love and be with them at that time that send them to an unknown fate. And somewhere, I mean, I, in researching that one case, I started looking up to see how big this problem is. And it's a completely other podcast, um, because there are so many so-called rescues. And I think that most of 'em start with great intentions and then they get overwhelmed and they, they just become hoarders. And then they become, they get to that point where they don't know what to do and they, they don't have anywhere for these animals to go and then they just let them die. Mm-hmm. And it's just something, something horrible So, if anybody, uh, if animal control officers, humane societies, anybody, uh, has a case, a potential dog fighting case, or a concern or anything like that, how can they get a hold of you guys to, if they need help with an investigation?

So there's, there's two emails that they can reach us at. The first one is animal cruelty@humanesociety.org. Humane Society spelled out, or they can email me directly and is my first initial, last name. So it's j r e e V as in Victor, e r at HSI stands for humane society international.org. Um, you can also contact me either by text or phone at 240-252-8400 and any information that is provided is 100% confidential. I do not even provide this, or we do not even provide it to law enforcement unless you give the, okay, if you do give information, it would be obvious that it came for you. Say that your, your, it's, uh, your neighbor and it, it would be pretty obvious just from what you observed and from, from the vantage point. Then we just have to find a backdoor to get the information and to make it, whether it's on Facebook, social media, find, um, the evidence there, and then go to law enforcement. So, um, on that also, we do offer a up to a $5,000 reward for any information leading to the arrest and or conviction for animal fighting. And all we need is a letter from law enforcement on their letterhead, basically stating that your information led to, led to the arrest or conviction for animal fighting.

Excellent. So thank you so much for being part of this episode. I think it has been really educational, both for people that are involved in law enforcement, but also for people that are curious about what dog fighting is and could dog fighting be going on in, in their backyard. Uh, and if anybody out there has any questions, any, concerns, any comments about what we have discussed, you can go to our Facebook page on animal welfare junction and uh, find a, find this episode and leave your question in the comments and maybe we'll, uh, even include it in a future episode to, to answer the questions. Um, so thank you so very much for being here and I'll see you again soon, I'm sure for, for another case. I love working with you guys. Um, it has been, it has been great. Um, and for everybody that's listening, thank you for listening and thank you for caring.

Thank you.