Good morning and thank you for joining us for this week's episode of Real Life.

I'm Pastor Jason and I'm joined, as always, with the pastor Mike.

Mike, hello.

Hey.

Good to be here.

Good to have you.

Today we're talking about something that's a little bit, could be a little bit controversial, even in christian circles, but hopefully, you know, we add some clarity to it through God's word.

That's the goal, at least for this week.

Our topic this week we came off last week is how should christians vote?

Or even should christians vote?

I know you followed that up last night with an amazing message on Wednesday night, too, about the same topic.

But this week we're focusing on right to life and a woman's right to choose.

So abortion is the topic that we're addressing this week, doing research.

I was looking at just some statistics.

I mean, I have to be completely honest, I was really kind of convicted reading through some of these statistics because I think I even in my own mind, have normalized the issue a little bit just because we hear about it all the time.

And, you know, this election, it's obviously a big, big part of kind of the political talking points, but it's not the first election.

This has been an issue.

This has been going on for a long time.

We'll talk about that today.

But I was looking through statistics, and the Pew research states that there's about a million abortions on average in the US every year.

A million.

Looking at the other statistics, you know, from the World Health Organization, did you realize that China alone, 336 million abortions, 336 million in China alone.

Wow.

India comes behind that at about 100 million in the United States.

This is really, since Roe versus Wade is about 62 million.

And remember, these statistics are numbers that can be tracked.

There's some, some accounts say that it's actually much higher because there's places that don't even track, you know, abortions.

So, man, that just, lord, forgive us for not speaking out on this issue.

This is a big deal.

That is a large number of people that are no longer here, that could have been here.

I mean, just, just on the numbers alone, what would that do to the population of China if abortions didn't happen?

That's an extra 336 million people.

That's incredible.

And so I think that's, you know, really, it's a hot, obviously, it's a hot button topic.

Thinking through the perspective of how Christians view abortion versus the kind of the other side, we think about this as like a binary, a and b, right?

Christians versus non Christians.

And I know that it's more complex than that.

There's lots of different views on it.

But what I wanted to do is kind of break it down for the sake of this podcast on, well, what is the general christian consensus today?

And then what is the other view?

We'll call that, just for sake of adding a term, a secularist viewpoint of abortion.

So from a christian perspective, at least, typically, the view is of the sanctity of life.

Most Christians believe that human life is created by God.

It's designed by God, and it's created really at the conception, and we'll get into some of the verses that go with that.

So just from a very fundamental level, from a christian perspective at least, abortion is seen as taking an innocent life.

And I think that's part of the reason you see such a divide on this issue, because one group believes that it's not murder.

They don't look at life as beginning and conception, and the other side absolutely thinks that it's murder because life begins at conception.

So that's kind of one view on the christians at least side or standpoint.

The other one is our moral responsibility.

Christians often emphasize that we're supposed to stand up for justice, to be stewards of life, to stand up for those that that can't stand up for themselves.

And so because of that, we often see ourselves as having a moral obligation to protect the vulnerable, which could be the elderly, it could be mental health issues, it could be poor, you know, people that are more poor than others.

We think of the biblical commandment to take care of orphans and widows, but also that would include the unborn as a voice that can't be heard.

So we'll talk a little bit about that and the societal impact of kind of normalizing, which I think is very much normalized today, even in christian culture, just the idea of abortion.

And then from a non christian or a secular rather perspective, and again, I realize there's many people, there's even people in this category that would call themselves christians that fight for a pro abortion standpoint.

And usually that revolves around bodily autonomy and personal rights.

The idea being that, at least from a secular perspective, that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her own body, the decisions she makes about her own body, which then goes to her choice over the baby.

If you come from, I think, a place of really, and it can come down to what do you view as a human life?

Do you view it in the womb, or do you view it outside of the womb?

And I think that really is the big divide that kind of encompasses the whole issue around abortion is the view of, when does life begin?

When does life begin?

So I'll let you kind of take that one.

Yeah.

And I think it gets answered, you know, very clearly in scripture.

The go to verse for most people is psalm 139, you know, where it says, you know, you made all the delicate inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.

Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex.

Your workmanship is marvelous.

How well I know it.

You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion.

So he's talking about the womb.

As I was woven together in the dark of the womb, you saw me before I was born.

Every day of my life was recorded in your book.

Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

And so I think, you know, scripture, you know, speaks very clearly to it that life begins at conception.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so we think about.

Okay, so in the scope of abortion, somebody who would argue for abortion, there's kind of two trains of thought that they take and.

Or at least when they would say abortion is acceptable.

And those two.

And again, I understand there's more views on this, but there's really kind of two main views, and that is really kind of a first trimester argument.

And that means abortion up to 15 weeks would be okay.

Right.

But anything after that, at least in this argument, would say that not okay.

You become a life, really, after the first trimester.

The other standpoint for abortion or the other argument is beyond that.

So it would say somebody who believes in full abortion rights would be anything from conception all the way up to, and in some cases, even after birth.

So that's kind of the whole gestational period or all the nine months up to after.

So those are kind of the two.

Two main views in the abortion camp.

Yeah.

And I think the sadness of that is that, you know, it's like, it's a moving target, you know, since you can't argue that it's a baby.

You know, obviously now with technology, we have the ability to look in the womb and see the baby being formed and.

And the way the baby can respond and feel, you know, while it's in the womb of its mother.

So you have to no longer make it an issue about life.

And that's not what they're saying.

The christian perspective is right to life.

The other is a woman's right to choose.

So it's like they concede the argument, yes, we know the baby's alive.

But the woman's right to choose is greater than the life of that baby, which.

That's where our whole discussion's taking us.

Yeah.

So then what does the Bible say, if anything, about abortion?

Does it address it at all?

No, clearly, you know, as we were talking about, you know, Exodus 2013 and the ten Commandments, you shall not murder.

And it's interesting when you think biblically of that word murder, it means to dash in pieces.

And when I think about abortion, I mean, it's exactly what abortion is, is to take that baby in the womb and dash it to pieces.

And it's interesting, the word murder is never used in scripture to describe the death of an opponent in war, nor the death that's meted out through capital punishment.

But abortion takes of an innocent life.

It is what the Bible says is murder.

And God calls that a sin, an abominable sin.

We're breaking God's commands each and every time that it's practiced.

Okay, fine.

So you take that approach, you say that makes sense.

That's awesome.

But then what about to the person who maybe believes that, but has been part of something traumatic?

And this is where kind of the debate gets muddied for a lot of christians.

Well, what about somebody who maybe went through rape or is the, you know, victim of an incest, you know, type of relationship?

Does that change things?

Should we have empathy to that?

No, you know, yes, we should have empathy.

And I think it's a great point to make in this whole thing because of this argument, you know, yes, we believe that abortion is wrong and it's sinful, but we also need to understand, you know, you and I, especially as ministers of the gospel, that we're here to proclaim forgiveness.

People can find forgiveness.

They can find healing.

They can find restoration.

They can find hope.

And that needs to be clear in this.

But it's a very, very sensitive topic.

It's a very difficult topic.

But what we have to understand with regard to really to be pro life, you know, we can't have exceptions.

It's so important that we understand that, you know, what do I mean by that?

You know, the baby's innocent.

Regardless of how the baby, you know, came into being, what type of act it was, whether it was rape or incest, it's important, you know, I mean, for us as christians, we should always answer the question, you know, what about abortion in the case of rape or incest?

I would hope that as believers, this is what we'd say.

Trauma doesn't fix trauma.

And it's so important because you go, why?

And you go, as pastors, we know this.

We're meeting with people years and years after they've had an abortion, and it doesn't matter as to what was the cause of it if they've had an abortion, eliminating the baby doesn't eliminate the trauma.

It's so sad.

There's consequences of the choice of abortion that they're experienced, obviously, physically.

You know, some people become completely infertile than when they want to give birth to a child, emotionally, mentally, spiritually.

I mean, this is all, it's all documented.

You know, no one's denying, you know, that rape, you know, or incest, it's a vile act and it's a vile act of violence and it has long lasting effects, and we get that.

But we also know that terminating the pregnancy isn't the solution.

The world wants to say, oh, you know, it's like out of sight, out of mind.

But we know that, man, that is not true.

I mean, it will stay with you.

You need to find a better way.

You need to find forgiveness.

You need to find healing.

And you go, and how, and God can do that at the same time that a innocent child can still be born into this world.

And we'll get into that momentarily.

About the families, what's the solution with families that are looking to adopt in the world today?

Yeah, and you said it, I think, perfectly.

It's the majority of abortions that take place is not incest or rape.

Do those happen?

Yes, absolutely.

You can't argue that they don't.

And like you said, that's, it's a terrible, evil, vile thing.

And people who commit those acts deserve to be, and they will, they should be prosecuted.

And there's a lot of support that a woman would need, obviously, after that, whether it's, you know, counseling and just love and support all those things.

But like you said, you can't, you can't confront one trauma with another because we, it can be easy at least to get caught up in the emotion of that and lose sight of.

But there's still another innocent life at stake here.

I think that's what we're trying to do here is speak up for that voice, too, but not minimizing the trauma in those cases.

But it's still a very small percentage of, you know, of the argument here.

So then what is the church's responsibility to the unborn?

And I think that really we have to be willing to stand up to those that cannot stand up for themselves.

And I can't think of anything that that applies more perfectly to.

Than that of an unborn child, that you can't even have a voice.

I mean, they can't say no.

They can't say no.

I probably don't want to do that.

I'd like to be born.

They have no voice.

And I think that, I mean, proverbs 31 eight nine is very clear about, you know, it says, speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute, speak up and judge fairly.

Defend the rights of the poor and the needy.

Right.

The verse emphasizing the importance, really, of using our voice to advocate, to be an advocate for the vulnerable, to ensure justice for the oppressed.

I mean, think of Isaiah 117, many, many others, other verses that talks about standing up for justice, right?

Standing up for those that can't stand up for themselves, you know, being an advocate.

And in this case, we're saying that applies very clearly, I think, to the unborn, to life that hasn't come out of the womb.

Yet.

Another thing that the church has to get better at doing, and I say this from, you know, a place of my own conviction, is just prayer, taking these issues before the Lord in prayer, and then, you know, being a voice.

And how do we.

How do we as christians, how can we be a voice to the unborn?

And I think in light of this season's topics, one of the ways we do that is at the polls.

That's how we use our voice.

We vote.

And again, that's why this is a part of this, this season.

It's issue one that needs to be addressed.

And two, it's an issue that has been drug in through the political kind of arena and is very polarizing.

Whether you're republican, you know, conservative, a Democrat, a liberal, an independent, it doesn't matter.

The topic of abortion is on the agenda.

And if I think if we take that as an approach of, you know, we go from a place of, you know, standing up for those that can't stand up for themselves, it brings that issue, I think, into a little more focus on how we should respond to it, really.

And then the other thing that I wanted to mention is because sometimes you'll see this in the political arena, that we compromise on certain issues to kind of win in other areas.

Right.

So I'll concede this if it gets me that we think of a quid pro quo kind of relationship and abortion is not the right to life is not.

It should not be the status quo for us, or it shouldn't be a compromise issue.

We either stand up for those that can't stand up for themselves, including unborn children, or you don't.

It's not one of those things that we can just compromise away.

So not accepting it as a compromise issue, I think, is an important thing to focus on.

But then now what do you do?

And maybe I'll ask you this question.

Let's say we have candidate a and candidate b, or in this case, we have former President Trump and we have Vice President Kamala Harris.

Let's say they both think that abortion should be illegal.

But one says, well, maybe in the first six weeks, and the other says all the way up till birth.

So both, if I want to be consistent about what I believe, both positions are advocating for abortion in some, to some extent.

So is there a way to reconcile that?

No.

And I think, you know, you bring up a great question, you know, and you gave the answer to it, you know, before the question was, we can't be pro life and have exceptions.

But unfortunately, we're facing an election here.

So let's just put it on the table.

If you are a Republican, your platform is that you believe that abortion is allowed up till, what you said, like 15 weeks, we go.

That's the republican platform, abortion 15 weeks or under.

Okay, we're gonna, we're gonna concede that.

If you're a Democrat, you're saying that we support abortion up to the point of birth, nine months, plus it can even take place after for whatever reason.

I don't know why there could ever be a reason that a life outside the womb, completely viable on its own, that the mother would have a right to terminate that life.

But if you are a Democrat now, that is the democratic platform position.

It's a woman's right to choose and then each state, because with Roe v.

Wade being overturned, now it's back in the states.

Not every state allows for abortion up to nine months, but many do.

So as the democratic platform, that's what you're up against.

You've got two platforms that both allow for abortion to take place.

So what does a Christian do in that?

And like I said, I said it earlier, the sad reality is, you know, this could be a terrible example.

But, you know, if I come on the scene of a car accident and the cars on fire and there's a family of seven in there, there's only one of me, how am I going to decide who lives and who dies?

And like I said, I'm going to run to that car, I'm going to grab the first person I come to, I'm going to pull them to safety.

I'm going to go again, grab the second person.

I'm going to save as many as I can.

And, you know, there's people that go, well, you should have just let them all go because at least they could have win as a family.

And you go, no, I have a responsibility, you know, to care and to love people and I'm going to save whoever I can save.

So in this law, if I could, out of a hundred, if, because we look at the law and we look at the, the way abortion, you know, takes place in this country, 99% of the abortions are done for convenience sake.

It's just a form of birth control.

If I could eliminate that and save 99 children and then concede the 1% or the one because of rape and incest, you go, and that's the best that I'm being offered in an election.

You go, I'm not going to not vote and go, no, it's all or nothing.

No, I'm going to save the 99.

That's going to be, and that's a personal conviction, obviously, as voting is a personal conviction.

But that's going to be my prayer, my hope for myself that I would have choose to save the 99 and I would hope that christians would make that same decision as well.

So how can the church support a pro family agenda today?

Because, I mean, the, the, you know, the argument is, okay, yeah, we're pro life, so we don't want abortion, but then, then what, what's the answer to, obviously, all these pregnancies where maybe the baby's not wanted or it is inconvenient or in the case of, you know, rape, incest, all this, you know, those, those reasons.

So can the church, how can the church support a pro family agenda and how can we be a part of the solution?

Well, I think doing what we're doing today, you know, we put together a podcast to deal with some of these, you know, hot button issues and abortion is obviously one of them and it's not being discussed from pulpits and pastors, you know, like ourselves are saying the reason they're not addressing it is because they don't want people to feel guilty.

And you go, sad.

Reality is they already feel guilty.

We're here, like I said earlier, we want to offer people hope, so we address the sins of people so they can find hope and forgiveness and restoration and reconciliation through Jesus Christ.

So the first and foremost, I would think that we have to just understand that silence isn't grace that we're going to speak to the issues, and we're going to speak first and foremost to the church, because here's a statistic for you.

One out of five american women having an abortion claims to be born again.

They claim to be a born again Christian.

So, you know, it's happening out there, and there's guilt and there's shame and there's condemnation that comes with that.

So we need to point people to the cross and the fact that they can find forgiveness, you know, in Christ Jesus.

And then to think about, you know, there's families that are out there.

There's estimated between one and 2 million couples in the United States who are wanting to adopt a child.

So that means there's as many as 36 waiting families for every child that's available for adoption today.

So again, to get that information out, you know, let the world know that, hey, there's people that want to love, you know, your children.

They'll take this child and they will adopt that child into their own family.

And so I think it's important, you know, we need to assist families in adoption.

I mean, to think that the cost of adoption domestically here in the states is somewhere between $20,000 and $50,000.

International adoption is somewhere between 30 and 60,000 or even more, depending on the country and the agency involved with it.

And I love this.

And really, it's a portrait of the greatness of the church in America, is our foster care system.

And that's the least expensive form of adoption.

And sometimes it costs little to nothing because the states provide financial support for families that will take in children and foster care.

And usually that's because they're not babies.

They're usually teenagers or young children.

And I love that because I think about the church doing that, because I think back to our history during the roman empire.

The Romans, they'd leave their unwanted newborns out to die.

They would just put them out in the street.

And it was the Christians who would come along and they would rescue them and take them in and raise them as their own.

And I read a quote yesterday and just said this, and it's such a wonderful thought.

It said, may our history become our legacy.

And I hope that it does for us, is that the church, that we can make a big difference.

But it needs to start in the church.

We need to deal with the sin of fornication and adultery, understand what the implications of that are, and offer people hope and like I said, and forgiveness in Christ when we failed.

And then what do we do to come along families and to help them, to assist them.

And churches have done that throughout the ages.

And so I think, in part, we're doing it, but we can't let the culture dictate to the church.

Just because something is now legal doesn't make it right.

And murder will never be right in the heart and the mind of God.

And I think that's what the whole issue of abortion comes down to, is how, how do we define life?

And if life begins at conception, then it should be at least a relatively easy topic to form an opinion on, because are we pro murder or not?

And if we look at abortion as murder, again, it doesn't detract from the trauma that a woman could go through because of the rape and incest.

But again, what is life?

And goddess, to your point, defines that very clearly.

So should this be, then, one of the most important issues on the ballot this season?

Well, you think about, you know, only people who weren't aborted can vote.

So, yeah, there's something about, you know, life, and like you said, and you've quoted it a few times, that we're to speak for those that can't speak for themselves.

And a baby that's in a womb, that is life that's recognized by God, yes, has a voice.

And unfortunately, like you said, there can be others suffering from mental illness or, you know, some form of retardation can't speak for themselves.

And we have a responsibility to stand in the gap and do that for them.

And that's what we're doing here today for the right and the life of the unborn child.

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Real Life.

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