Welcome back to another episode of Getting Real with Bossy with your host, Kelly.

Bush and your host, Kelly Metras.

Have you ever felt like you're just not enough?

That you don't have the ability to say no?

Have you ever felt like you're just stuck on that hamster wheel and comparing yourself with everyone else?

Well, we've got the.

This is the show for you.

This is the infomercial for Enough by Barbara Burgess.

Right.

How they do.

I'm really excited for this episode.

Today we are interviewing a woman named Barbara.

Barbara Burgess from Chicago.

And I think this is gonna be really, really wonderful.

She wrote this wonderful book called Enough.

Yeah.

What do you want to write a book on, Kelly?

Let me pull up my.

My book folder in front of me.

My title concept.

Yes.

The money.

Oh, we could feed off of hers and just do stop.

Just stop doing the stupid shit.

Stop.

Do you want me to read them right now?

My.

Go for it.

Nobody can steal them though.

All of the above is copyrighted.

And another thing, this wasn't in the brochure.

The real life of running a business.

Spoiler alert.

You're the problem.

Can we have Taylor Swift help us with that one?

I think so.

Consumers, employees, and all the other wild animals.

I just came up with one.

We love it.

Go.

Can we talk?

You know I like that.

Yeah, right.

Come into my office.

You're not in trouble.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have a lot of books I want to write.

About how I hate your product.

It could be our one star review book.

Oh.

For those of you that don't know, Kelly and I do a fringe show in Rochester every year where we talk about one star reviews and share them with the audience.

And they're very funny and you should check it out.

Absolutely.

I'm sure the new lineup's getting released soon.

It's every September, so find bossy one star reviews.

So, yeah, we're gonna write a book and Barbara's gonna help us and we're gonna inspired today, talking about how to feel like we are enough and stop all the nonsense.

So I'm excited to talk to her.

Absolutely.

We hope you enjoy the show and write your book.

Just do it.

Just do it.

Just do it.

All right, today on the podcast, we're diving deep into the messy, magical middle of life with Barbara Burgess, author, executive, mother speaker, and unapologetic dark chocolate enthusiast.

Barbara is the founder of Core Luma, a Chicago based consulting firm whose name fittingly means heart and light, which we need today because I don't know if you can See, in my background it is absolutely storming out.

So I definitely need that.

She's the author of Enough.

Finding peace in a world of distractions, hustle and expectations and the creative force behind the one woman show.

The extraordinary experience of being ordinary.

With a career that's taken her from selling candy bars from Nestle to launching Grainger into an E Commerce, dabbling at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and running operations, marketing and finance from at a non profit coo.

Geez, I'm exhausted.

Barbara brings a mix of practical wisdom, fierce humor and soulful insight into everything she does.

Today we're talking about how to list, how to stop listening to the voice of not enough, the power of small no's and why self improvement trap isn't all it's cracked up to be.

How we can build bulletproof grace in a world that's anything but quiet.

If you've ever felt like you're too much and not enough all at once, this is the conversation for you.

Welcome to the show, Barbara.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's something to listen to, something about yourself.

Thank you, Barbara.

This is the book for anybody that's watching this on video.

Once we release it on video, if you are not on video and you're just on audio, it is a great read.

It is not super long.

For those of you that hate reading.

I love reading.

So like I read every day at night.

Let's see, how many pages is your book?

Where are we at?

Like 150 with acknowledgments.

Right.

It's short, welcome.

And they're not busy life.

Right?

Yeah.

They're not like long, dense pages.

It's not like Tolkien, you know, you.

Can, you can even dip in.

You don't have to go into order.

You could just open, read a little and get out.

And the chapters are like, they're really, you know, specific.

So if there's like something that sticks out and you just read that chapter, it's only a handful of pages and you're like, wow.

Yes, yes, yes.

And then you're your own cheerleader.

I felt like your book really empowers when you're reading to be like, yes, it's one of those things that you, you know the stuff, but you need someone else to kind of remind you.

And I think this is a great reminder of what we all know we need to do and forget to do it every day.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And I do believe that like there's nothing new under the sun really.

But we don't have enough reflections back of like oh, okay.

So I'm fine.

Okay.

So there are options.

Okay.

You know, like, this is.

I mean, to me, I feel like this whole where I just want women to be writing a lot, producing a lot, creating a lot, publishing a lot is like, you just need to see.

And men too, but you just need to see that reflection back that, you know, some of the narrow ways we've looked at things are not the only way, you know?

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And we talk about on the show a lot, like business owners, entrepreneurs.

We all have similar traits.

We all have high anxiety.

We probably some trauma in our life, and we're all going, going, going.

Colleen, I have about 17, I think, that we've talked about writing.

What was the breaking point for you?

Like, what was the moment when you were like, I need to get this down.

I need to write this down.

It is time to write the book.

You know, I think there was a huge shift, you know, I'm going to say between in the last three to five years.

Right.

And I think for us, globally, for the world, for humans, all that kind of stuff is just seeing different possibilities and perspectives.

And I think, you know, part of it is getting fed up with what's not working.

You know, I had, you know, experiences in my work life where I'm like, I am hitting my head against the brick wall for the third time and the wall is not moving.

Like, hello, what will it take?

Right?

So there were a lot of things like that that was like, you know, and again, yes, trauma.

Yes.

All the things, right.

And so.

But, you know, there's that kind of, you know, I don't even want to call it bottom, but they're good.

You know, there are these certain breaking points, right, that just hit and you're like, I am just done with whatever it is.

Fill in the blank.

I'm done with this.

I'm done with that.

And even at different levels, like, maybe at a certain level, I'm done with it.

And so that was the moment.

And I will say to this, even to what you were saying, Kelly, it is a short book.

So if I were set out on the wild range as an animal, I probably would spend too much time perseverating about getting something right.

I can't call myself a perfectionist because I've met people, I'm the perfectionist.

That's like, all right, I go, perfection, perfection, perfection.

Oh, screw it.

It's fine.

Let's go.

Yeah, that's my coping.

That's my coping with perfectionism.

But to that point, I was like, you know, is this book, you know, if I were, I could rewrite, write it five more times.

Like, there's a million things I would do differently.

But I think my value shift changed.

You know, it wasn't from, let me.

Let me birth something that is perfect, that people will get down on their knees and worship.

And instead, it's like, man, I got a lot of crap I need to say for myself, you know, And I really do believe this, like, this book.

I am a journeyer.

I am not a thought leader.

I'm not an expert.

I'm not anything because I don't believe in them.

You know, I don't trust those folks.

It makes me nervous, you know, because I coach a lot of people and, like, when you get under the hood, everyone has their crap, right?

And so for me, like, this book was the starting of stuff I needed to hear in some ways.

So, like, to me, it was a gift for me, but I was like, I gotta get it out.

Like, you just gotta get it out because maybe there are four more behind it.

I don't know.

Not my business.

But my business is not to, like, hang on to this thing with some weird, perfectionistic view.

And so that was part of, like, it's fine.

Yes.

It's short.

It's not big.

Like, welcome to my life.

I have time to dip into something and then there's a hot mess to handle.

Right.

You know, so, you know, I think in many ways it was, for me, and it was that turning point of, you know, what is there later?

I mean, who are we kidding?

Like, oh, somehow later I'm going to have it all handled in a better way.

That will be the right timing of this.

You know, you think about people who have kids, like, is there a right time to have a kid?

Probably not.

Like, again, my kids will need to invest in therapy because, you know, they're human and so am I.

And so if I had done that earlier or later or whatever, probably same outcome, you know, so why not do it?

Yeah, I think that that actually circles to a great thing you talk about in your book, and that's choice, right?

So.

So choice is an option.

You don't have to do things.

And you made that choice in writing your book.

So you're proving that it's actually something that you do.

You're not just writing about it.

Well, to that point, it's.

The more that I play in this playground, the more I realize there are more choices than I thought.

But there's, you know, there's like, breaking down the Constructs of what was there before.

Because again, I think when we first, like, maybe you go to school, maybe you work jobs, maybe whatever, like, there is a very narrowed mindset about what's possible and how you have to do it.

And, you know, the more experiences I gain, the more I realize, God, that's just somebody's idea.

That's not truth.

Right.

And so, you know, that whole really reclaiming choice, you know, and again, I was thinking about this with, you know, friends who are getting to different phases in their life and like, yeah, you can reverse age.

You can focus on beauty, you can focus on health.

You can also not.

You can.

You know, I mean, there's just so many.

When we.

When we open up the.

The possibilities of what's there, you know, we can.

And I don't think it's as moralistic or as right and wrong or as black and white as we like to think.

I think there's loads of shades of gray.

And to me, that's like, that's a playground, you know, Like, I can't wait for you guys first book to come out because there's probably some great stuff even behind that one, you know.

Oh, dear.

I can't.

All right, well, let's get into this book.

This voice in our head that is telling us we're not enough.

How do we shut it up?

How do we at least learn to turn down the volume a little bit?

How can you help us learn?

Let's learn some tidbits from the book.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, again, there's.

There's.

We all have some version of this, and there's loads of work on limiting belief and the voices in our heads and all that kind of stuff.

Like, there's lots of stuff out there, has been for decades about this.

But like in my own personal experience and journey, and that's what I share in the book a lot, is like, this is me.

You know, there are all kinds of pathways to discover things, but the first thing I had to do is actually really notice it.

And actually, I think the stark contrast came when I had an experience of Enough.

You know, I had a little moment on the other side that led me to not Enough.

But, you know, the first thing I needed to do is really.

And again, you'll.

If you read the book, it's like, you know, not enough is a character.

It's a he.

It's somebody that came into my life just as well as Enough, you know, who.

Who's more of a feminine presence.

But.

But in that place, like to really notice him.

That not enough voice as a real life, legit, fully fledged thing, you know, Because I think for me, it's so easy and so subtle to be like, well, but, you know, you know, like, it.

It's literally like for our own soul and purpose and our being, like, we can erode that.

It's like death by a thousand paper cuts, right?

And so to really make this personification so that you first notice that voice.

And again, because we might give it a little like, well, that's just me not being sure.

Maybe I'm just not confident, you know, but it's diminishing the power of that.

Not enough that we have truly allowed to move into our spaces.

Like, we didn't know any better, we didn't have better models.

So, of course this is what we did.

But as soon as I started writing about that voice, like, it was amazing to see how prevalent it was, how everywhere it was.

And I'm somebody who's done a lot of stuff, you know, I've done self reflection.

I've done growth work.

I've done all those things.

And I was like, dang, there it is.

You know?

And so to me, the first thing was just noticing where.

Where he shows up, what he says, you know, as its own distinct entity.

Because otherwise it's too insidious, right?

It's too much my voice all the time, as if that has validity to it, you know?

And I think it's amalgamation of our upbringings and the experiences we had in society and all those kinds of things.

But it helped for me to put him into a character.

You know, I was listening to somebody else the other day who talked about.

And I'm gonna steal this one too.

Their.

Their brain.

And they were saying how one of the things to overcome when your brain starts having its moment where it's just problematic, but give it a name.

And I can't remember, this person called it Betty or something.

And it was like, hey, Betty, I see ya.

I got you over there, you know?

But.

But in listening to that, I was like, oh, that's what happened with me.

And not enough is I became super, super aware of his voice, right?

But the other part was to really turn up the volume on the enough voice.

Because that's just as easy as we're rushing through our days to turn down and not notice, right?

These, like, literal micro moments, like, I think we wait for the big call, the big celebration, the big moment to be like, oh, my gosh, that was amazing.

I succeeded at this.

I did this.

Now It's.

And there are these little micro moments.

I mean, the two of you, that you have the shared time together, like, what a gift is that?

Like, if we really, like, hold that, like that is a precious treasure that is worth.

What if you had to put.

I can't even think what the value would be.

Right.

It's just we don't live in a society that goes, wow, these two, you know, kick ass women coming together, having a conversation, they're making gold, they're weaving gold.

Like, we don't hold it that way so we miss the Enough.

Right.

But if all of a sudden I stole that from the two of you and you had to live on isolated islands, you didn't have contact.

No, no, no.

Right.

But isn't this it?

Right?

So it's like, it's like instead, well, like, oh, gosh, when my business is, what, fully operational with nary problem, then I'm gonna like, have joy and feel life.

And that is just complete and utter bs.

Yes.

You know, I get it.

I have a thousand things to say.

But those moments, I think I have to agree.

So I had a friend who was going through a separation, and as she was reconciling with her husband, I had a similar situation in my life.

And she's like, I'm waiting for that moment.

I'm like, you can't wait for like this grand gesture.

This.

Like, it's the small things, like, it's the little things that come back.

Like, those are the moments.

Like, you can't be waiting for that.

And I'm so glad that you pointed it out because it's those little things that are so important.

And we're always waiting for those grand gestures and those big moments.

And so thank you for bringing that up because those are the things we need to hold on to.

I'm so glad you brought that up.

And you know, Kelly and I have ground is in mental health and behavior management.

And when you're trained in this, and we're so good at talking to other people about this, we always forget to work on this with ourselves.

But so thank you.

Always forget these moments.

And I think that's why it's so important to build community and things that way.

And again, for me, why naming enough was just important is not enough.

Because in some ways it is the micro.

Yeah, in some ways it is the micro moments.

But again, I think we're in a society that doesn't value that.

Like, okay, I'll just be totally, you know, naive if I could craft the world.

Right?

Oh, My gosh, the things that would have attached value compared to what we do.

Right?

So it's money, it's position, it's all these things.

But truly, at the end of our days, right, Is that what we're going to go, oh, I'm so glad I killed it, you know, crushed it with that.

And by the way, I love money.

Please keep coming to me.

I enjoy it.

Like, it's not instead of that.

Right.

But, you know, the small moments are the big moments, you know, and so we miss it if we don't let ourselves treasure and value that.

But I think it's why we need community, to your point, because, I mean, like, decades I've been doing this stuff, but you still, like, there's just still a nuance.

And Wade.

And for me, right now, at this phase of my life, it's surrounding me by other people, with other people who also have that value.

Like, I'm an adult, and I want to continue to meet new adult friends who care about and value the things I do because, boy, it is magic.

Like, it's amazing, you know?

And I will say so.

I had several people want to give me advice on changing the name of this book because what was going to be marketable and not.

And I sat with it, like, I'll consider anything.

And then I was like, every part of my DNA was like, no, because it's.

The whole point is to value the things we don't value, to treasure them, to, you know, kind of do a little reset at that.

So I needed it.

And I think a lot, like, I'm hearing, you know, not enough is a very masculine voice and enough is feminine.

And it makes sense because the world was created and written and founded by men and their values and what they've been told are important values.

And all of the men I know have masculine and feminine energy, whether they want to admit it or not.

Absolutely.

And they all appreciate both sides of it.

They just, you know, call it different things.

And I think a lot of the.

The feminine other side is just that softerness.

And I think as women, we are kind of.

What's the word?

Genetically bound to be caregivers.

You know, we have different hormones, we have different brain waves, the way that we are actually built.

And so we do have this tendency to.

To be in those moments.

Because when you're a caregiver that's ex.

You have to.

Right.

Whether it's another person, whether it's a child or a parent or your spouse, like, you're watching the moments, you're Picking up on the things.

And men don't always have that innate capability as easy as some women do.

But I do think it's so important to talk about the fact that that feminine energy is necessary for everybody.

Yes.

So that we can all take those moments and it's okay.

And you don't have to just focus on what's ingrained in society to push you and to claim what's important.

You know, it is those little moments.

It is going home and not being at work.

It is seeing someone you love smile.

It is watching the first magnolia bloom on the tree next door.

Right.

And, and, and embracing those moments.

And, and I think to understand, even going back to what you said in, you know, kind of that masculine, feminine.

There's also, you know, I was raised with a certain mindset about a masculine world that existed, but it denies a very, you know, some feminine leaning cultures.

Feminine leaning that were never in my education.

Right.

So like I hadn't known until about, you know, the last six months that Socrates had a female teacher.

Yes.

Do we know that?

That just came out.

How did anyone know that?

But are countless versions of that.

Right.

So there has been a certain, literally his story, history written that we learn that discounts this other view, you know, point on it.

And I just want to underline what you said.

The honoring of these feminine values are good for everybody.

They're not good for the women, they're good for society in that sense.

Because again, it is that the ability to unfold, to be fierce, to care.

You know, I believe personally, like I've done a lot of hard things, right.

But the things that I would get acknowledged for weren't the hardest.

Right.

And you know, just what you're saying about relationships, the hardest is to say, you know, I'm feeling vulnerable, I don't know what I'm doing.

This is a hot mess.

And I just feel raw as crap, you know, like that is one of the fiercest things I can do.

You know, as a child with trauma who learned to overcope, I can muscle through, I can soldier through, I can do all those things.

That's not hard.

That's what I'm in the habit of doing.

What's hard is to stop and pause and breathe and let myself cry and, you know, whatever.

I, I went to this event yesterday and it was kind of a little bit more of a formal, stuffy event.

And then the speaker at one time, who is an older man, you know, white haired, he teared up, you know, and he, you don't know what he was talking about.

I mean, he was talking about something with World War I and things like that.

So you can only imagine that there's some intimate connection or somebody lost.

We don't know.

That wasn't the story he was telling.

But I got to tell you, that's when the event changed for me.

All of a sudden, I was so present, and I teared up, and I was thinking about things that are moving me.

It was when he allowed that softness in, that he allowed to me what's real authenticity in.

Right.

I saw him finally not what he was supposed to be there to do.

And then the whole thing, it was literally like somebody turned up the energy and the whole engagement.

So that misnomer in our minds were like, where does the power come from?

And you give me a vulnerable woman who's been kicked to the curb, I will take her at the end of days, all day long to somebody who didn't have to struggle and succeeded, quote, unquote, in this world.

Because, you know, what I know is, like, I don't know.

We'll figure it out.

Zombies are coming.

Well, how should we attack zombies?

Let's.

Let's gather it up.

Let's loop it together.

But it's because of, you know, ability to be fierce, be warm, hold the collective care about everybody, you know, and again, I think we have too many binary, limiting, you know, viewpoints of what that looks like.

And it's just not my belief system, you know, And.

And it's courageous to say that in this world.

And again, I work with a lot of executives.

You know, I'm like, well, you could do that.

And maybe, maybe there's a little different way you could approach that thing, you know, just hypothetically, like, shop the idea, maybe, you know, but we are so in this almost like mental prison of this is what it looks like.

This is success.

This is how my days are valued, all that kind of stuff.

And so, you know, I think in some ways, that's why this enough concept has been one of the biggest gifts to me, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

I love it, and I love that sometimes it's just enough to get through today, like we talk about in our episode Kelly and I did together.

Just that there's days where you're just not enough.

Not enough.

Yeah, Right.

You don't have it in you.

You're having your own stuff.

And you still have to run this business.

You still have to do the things.

And not everybody is always going to care that you have the stuff because you're the boss.

You're the.

The head honcho.

You're the person that's got to get it all done and just getting through it.

Like, bare minimum.

You talk about that in your book, like, totally.

And this is where you are that.

That chapter where it says enough even when you're not feeling it.

Because, like, three quarters of that book was written.

And then you just have these moments where it's like, I cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel, you know?

And so to be honest about that, like, that's what I appreciate about when you guys are talking in your podcast, it's like the real stuff.

Like, let's just share what's real.

And sometimes I don't care what I've learned how much my training is.

I cannot see the light for the ended.

I mean, I had a day like that yesterday, and I was like, could I possibly have the grace to just have a crappy day?

Can I just let it be there as it is and know that was the best I could bring at that moment?

Like, guess what?

I didn't kill anyone.

Nobody's physically harmed.

You know, in the scheme of things, you know, I was maybe a net neutral to the world and not a net positive, but great, you know.

And that was the other piece that, you know, again, this stuff emerged as I was writing.

But that whole idea of saving versus serving, you were talking about women and how much were trained.

Well, I get tremendous value out of contributing to a human.

It is a dopamine hit.

And so that's beautiful.

There's a beautiful aspect of that.

But where does that cross the line between me really serving or me?

I give this example in the book of staying in your energy lane, or when am I stepping outside of my energy lane, getting into somebody else's and doing something that's not mine to do.

And I will say, for somebody who likes to care, likes to contribute, all that kind of stuff, holy cow.

The level at which I step outside of my own zone to go save somebody or take care of something for them so they don't have to feel discomfort or whatever.

It is like, I think massive addiction for me, if I'm honest about it, right?

And to reclaim that is tough because so much of that saving or over giving gets characterized as serving and it's not.

And, like, where is that line?

So for me, yesterday, like, it was saying no to one kid who wanted to be driven somewhere and, like, she found a way to get where she was going and got somebody to pick her up.

It's like, there is a Part of me that's like, why would you not?

You're the one that chose to live here.

You're far away from her friends.

Like, I can run you down the whole thing, right?

But I was like, I needed to know.

I needed.

You know, I talk about that in the book as well, but, like, I needed that moment to just say it.

And I can't tell you that.

Like, oh, my body felt, like, uplifted, and it was so obvious in the sunshine.

No, I still had that, like, little click of guilt because again, you compare that to, you know, a super business owner, a super mom, a super whatever, and there we are just, like, stuck in it again, right?

And so really learning these super, super subtle distinctions for me at least, between, you know, you know, what serves me does serve the planet.

And that is really uncomfortable new territory.

It is not how I was trained.

It's not where I got rewarded in, you know, it was like, work hard.

I mean, work hard's the win, right?

And then maybe something else will come in the afterlife.

Oh, my therapist asked me, did you ever think about why you work so hard?

And I was like, no, can we talk about something else?

Yeah, please, can we avoid that one right now?

Because there's a lot of things I want to talk about.

That's not it.

We're gonna loop that and that.

No, my therapist and I talk about that.

Have talked about that a lot, too.

Like, the no, you're never.

You're never.

Your personality is never going to feel good about that.

That guilt is never going to go away.

There is no amount of work we're going to do.

You're going to see the benefits of that in other ways.

And hopefully we can retrain your brain to acknowledge that quicker.

But the no's never going to feel good.

So don't ever feel like you're going to feel that instant gratitude.

You're going to recognize the positives of it sooner.

But the no is never going to feel great.

No.

And when I'm working with people one on one, like, my best metaphor I got for that is like, we can turn down the volume or turn up the volume.

So, like, literally, you know, not enough.

Even at the end of the book, like, still there, just.

It's like, turn the volume down and turn hers so much higher.

But, you know, I got wired the way I got wired, and I chose this existence the way or however that happens.

Like, I don't know.

I'm not going to figure it out.

But there's something about that, you know, I.

I Say for myself, an increasing self acceptance, you know, like, do I still want my body to be like I'm five three, you know, and have struggled with weight my whole life?

Da da da.

Would I love to be 2 to 5 inches taller?

You're darn right.

Would I love to have those legs that I've seen people have.

I can't imagine I have hobbit legs.

You know, I'd love, you know, that would be so fun to play with.

On the flip side of it, like that is not what I'm driving around in.

Like that's literally not my car.

And so there's been these places in my moments where like you know, the whole like hobbit, Lord of the Rings, blah blah, like I have hobbit feet.

And dang, they're just darn cute hobbit feet.

If you can love hobbit feet.

Right?

But they're not, I mean they're not gonna be other ones, you know.

But it is funny how much of my life force and resource I have wasted.

You know, I talk in the book about the ladder of comparison.

Like I just like what part of why I went down the wormhole yesterday is a friend who had a tremendous success.

And I started comparing myself again.

I was like, oh my God, I know better and here I am, right?

But how can I lean into increasing self acceptance for what's so while still giving myself permission to change the whole darn thing if I wanted, right?

So like I talk about that even with my weight a lot.

Like I want to be okay exactly as I am, you know, whatever that might look like.

And if I choose to, you know, at some moment get on some diet plan or not even diet plan, I don't believe in that.

But like exercise thing, whatever that does something else.

I also want that to be a choice.

So like part of to me like embracing this experience as I have more of them is it is opening all the options to me.

But none of them in like that reactionary.

I have to because they said they did they whatever.

Like that's the win to me.

So it's you know, to what you were saying like that increasingly moving it a little bit more to an internal locus of control versus an external one.

Like increasingly I'm not saying like going to get there, never going to go back, blah blah, blah blah.

No present.

Yeah.

And my honesty is, yeah, it's all still here.

I remember after the, you know, main pandemic, people came back asking for donations.

Can you donate food to this event?

Can you donate food to this event.

Can you donate food to this event?

And we had always supported charities, especially grassroot charities, like, Hardcore.

Gave them everything.

And I was like, no, I have negative money.

Like, I can't give anything away for free.

And there was a group that actually sent me the email asking for the food.

I told them that unfortunately, we didn't have it in our budget this year, but to think about us next year and hopefully things would be better.

And they turned around and messaged my husband, who's my business partner, and he was pissed because he was like, well, Kelly already told you no, so, like, who do you think you are?

And he, like, sent back a really snotty response.

And it was like, so you're saying it's not okay for me to not give you things for free for your charity?

Like, I get that charities were hit really hard, like, yep.

But I was a restaurant.

Yes.

And for a really long time, I had to say no to a lot of the programs that we supported, and they were not happy about it.

And it's like, but you don't understand, like, that's money out of my pocket.

That's money that's paying for my kids to eat and have a house.

And, like, people don't put that connection together.

And then you feel bad.

And I'm like, how am I feeling bad about choosing my family's health and safety right now over giving away free stuff?

Yeah, well, and again, that's where, you know, again, everybody talks about boundaries and.

And how to say no and all that kind of stuff.

But for me, like, the journey of that small nose and big nose, like, there.

There's a difference.

Right?

But what I learned and continue to learn is, boy, there are a lot of people I've attracted in my life who are not okay with me saying a small no or a big no.

And this was after the book was published.

I had an acquaintance who kind of wanted me to, you know, help on an event.

And I had before, right.

But.

But he came at me, you know, for the ask and said, so, you know, I have this event coming up, and I haven't decided if I want you to help or be a participant.

Like, I haven't.

Like, I lost my stuff.

Because again, as you write about it, you start to see.

See what happens.

Right?

And so we have a very good relationship.

And I cut him off.

I said, listen, I'm going to pause you right there.

You know, thankfully, this book was teaching me.

I'm going to pause you right there.

I said, we've had this conversation before just reminding you I'm educating.

I'm going to go with my bulletproof grace first, you know.

You know, that's not a fit for me to do this.

And before I could even then respond to the second part, he's like, great, then you'll assist me.

And this is.

And it went down this road, right?

And so what?

And it really turned into a thing.

Like, I was so proud of myself.

So then I finally.

I let them finish, and I had helped them, like, think through this event, all that kind of stuff.

And at the end of it, I said, listen.

I said, so appreciate the way you've recrafted this.

I love how we talked about it, worked about it, you know, and it sound like it's going to be amazing.

And it's just not a fit for me to be there in either of these fashions, you know.

Wish you all the best.

If I can help you with the framework at all, let me know.

Da, da, da, da.

Right?

And I felt so proud in that moment.

I was like, oh, you did it.

You did a small no.

And then you did a big no.

Yay.

You're like, I'm cheering myself on, right?

And you still helped, and I still helped.

Oh, by the way.

And I'd helped up to that point, right?

And so I'm not exaggerating, it was probably a week, week and a half later where I got a call where he was super upset with how he had been treated all like, da, da, da, da, da.

And I literally, at first, I was so upset because again, we hit our trigger moments, right?

He stepped right on one of mine, and I, like, lost it.

Couldn't even get my cognitive functioning working.

And then I went back and I really, like, in my mind, because trauma response, we can overwork anything.

But I went back through that whole conversation trying to figure out where I had erred, because I am unfortunately one of those people that thinks, well, I must have done something wrong.

And so I walked through the whole thing and I was like, oh.

Oh.

There was nothing, you know, there was nothing problematic here.

In fact, it was massively gracious, massively kind.

It had massive context in it.

But this person.

I had a relationship in the past of always being there for everything, and they didn't like who was showing up.

And this didn't get his wife.

Yeah, yeah.

And again.

But, like, you know, this is a.

This is.

Takes two to tangle, right?

Like, what's so sobering to me right now in this moment, like, I can give you things.

I thought about Yesterday it's like, holy cow, I have set up this game with a load of my relationships.

And so I don't know, as I continue to grow and evolve and show up in the way that feels more authentic to me.

I don't know which ones are going to make it through or not.

Because there are ones for whom life for you with this charity, like all of a sudden they're going to break this really beautiful relationship because you're not trusting me that I'm making a choice that's best for me and, and you know that one you couldn't.

But like, even the one that it would be fine if you did have it but still wasn't the right choice for you, like, where does someone else get to make your choices Right?

Which is how I had wired myself, was like, what's the good choice?

What's the bad choice?

What's whatever?

And like to be.

And again, this is where I think it's fierce and courageous and strong to go.

Hmm, I wonder, let me tune in.

Like, where in my body, like I talk a lot in the body.

Where in my body does this feel, you know, as if it's workable and not workable for me?

And so learning to do that and also realizing like people might lose their crap around you while you do that, you know?

You know, and I love that your spouse was like, hello.

Which part of you didn't get the no the first time?

We still don't have it.

Like, yeah, yeah.

I don't have a different book accounting than she does.

Like, yeah, yeah.

Well.

And I think also like part of where I'm still struggling that I'm working on is understanding, like, just because I'm seeing these things for now.

Like a lot of these things I probably would have been on the other side of before because of the way I saw the world and myself and things.

And so like, how do you keep being gracious?

How do you keep, you know, how do you keep wanting to contribute or whatever?

Because there are days I just like, oh, could you just all go away?

And I'm gonna like just tuck myself under a blanket and not have to deal with any of it.

Yeah.

And sometimes people like, what do you need?

I'm like, for it to be tomorrow.

Cuz hopefully after a good night's sleep, I will be this much better so I can achieve some things.

But right now I am just going to lay here and watch TV and like, yes, watching.

Check back later.

Yeah, dinner is leftovers.

Like we are just going to like get through.

Yeah.

Hopefully tomorrow, which again isn't even a good enough.

It's beautiful like to be able to have that wherewithal in that moment to make that choice to me is freaking like Olympic medal.

Oh, but that other voice is there the whole time going, you should be, you should be, you should be, you should be, you should be.

Yeah, well, and again that's where I think really for me that not enough voice.

And again just where my triggers are getting right on that ladder of comparison.

Like I should, because they're doing and look at them over there and they might have and if I can imagine this other one and I just learned like being on that and again I know that there are world class athletes that use comparison as a competitive advantage to improve themselves.

Like dang, that just was not programmed into my DNA.

Like maybe in my next life, right?

Anytime I'm comparing it, usually I feel worse about myself.

I end up in some self criticism etc and so truly for me I had to like step back and stop.

I mean that had to be almost like a cold turkey is like if you notice yourself comparing to your stop.

It's what tanked me yesterday, right?

So again the difference of me now versus a year ago, six months ago is like I, I really noticed and even though I still felt yucky, I didn't exacerbate it.

I didn't believe it, I didn't buy into it.

It was just a, like, well, I'm going to get through this moment and see what there's here for me to learn.

And that was what I had, you know, which I think again isn't even not bad, it's magnificent, you know, because that's the game, right?

In some ways, yeah.

Getting through today.

I mean think of those like world class athletes.

That's not sustainable.

Usually those are for moments, right?

Those are for certain things.

So if you think about it like that, like that's for one race, one thing that's not sustainable, there's no way to keep that up.

It's not a way to live.

And by the way, the celebrities, the athletes, the ones that I love, that I follow are the ones who have that bigger perspective, who have that grace, who like, you know, again help the opponent when they're after the match, who you know, are spending their time really contributing, caring in different ways.

Like, you know, that is what I find motivational, like the one that at all cost crushes people.

Like I bless you, you're not my people.

You know, like that's great.

It's just, you know, we're you know, I joke, like, if there's an afterlife and there's certain sections, like, please don't put my house next to their house.

I just.

I want to be with the people that are kind and real.

Okay, well.

And it's like, you see, like, these people who win, you know, they lose the super bowl or they get the, you know, the fourth place at the Olympics or even the bronze medal, and, you know, they.

A lot of them are crying and I'm like, you're the fourth best in the world, like.

Or you're the 20th best in the world.

Or, like, you're like, you should be so excited.

But that's not how we're built.

Right.

That's not how we're taught is.

Yeah.

And I just wish there was a day that, you know, everybody that performed in the Olympics could celebrate the fact that they're like, even if you're the top 50th person in that thing in the world, you are the top class person in that trait.

And I wish that that was, like, more important than winning number one.

It's like, what was that telling Talladega Nights, if you're not first, you're last.

Yes.

You know, it's that mentality of, like, you have to be first.

And it's like, well, maybe I'm just the best in this part of what I do.

Well, I think that's part of what led me to do that one woman show.

Like, I just, like, this was not a.

Like, oh, this is gonna be my new career.

Like, it was bizarre, unexpected thing.

But what it.

The whole premise of that is, you know, there are two of me, and there's the me that lives in this world with all the vulnerabilities, all the experiences, all the things.

And then there's this other version of me living in a parallel reality where there is a.

It's the same resources we have, the same people, the same everything, but they've made different choices than we've made.

And it's fascinating.

So she's coming in, you know, observing, like, she's gotten this permission to come into this in between space and the theater and talk about what she sees here versus their space.

Right.

In their planet and things like that.

But in, you know, there's these little micro moments that, again, I think were, you know, selfishly for me, but where even about wealth and helping and stuff like that, they say they.

She ends up calling it Grace is this other place right.

Where these folks are living.

That's a parallel to the Earth reality.

But in that moment, she says, you know, it's like we find it really strange as we observe you.

You know, like, it's really interesting how you choose to do things.

She's like, in our space, like, if we're somewhere and everybody, anyone has a need, like, we can't wait.

Like, we're excited to delightfully help if we have the thing to help, if it's ours to give and we have it.

Like, we can't wait to share that abundance, to give it.

Because your heart swells, you feel better, your energy's great, you're healthier.

And, you know, she's kind of looking at ours where there's so much hoarding, so much like the wealthiest at the top and nothing else below.

And it's like, I don't understand that.

Like, if that's not good for the body and it's not good for that human and it's not good for the whole thing, like, why are you guys doing that again?

Like, it's really this almost like naive kid kind of perspective.

But I think it was just kind of my naive, optimistic way of saying, gosh, you know, it doesn't have to be this way.

Like, it really doesn't, you know.

Yeah.

And I think there is so much of like, well, that's how it is.

Well, you know, if it didn't have this, then this would happen.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

That's in our world's like, but is it.

Is that really true?

Or, like, is that just what we have followed along?

Because that's what we believe, you know, and that's where for me, in business, like, you know, yes, I do.

You know, the self reflection.

I've written this thing, but like, you know, I work in and out of businesses a lot, but, you know, to me, business is just an excuse to encounter humans.

You know, that's really what it is.

And I believe ultimately, like, you know, you can have a beautiful business.

It doesn't have to be a big business to be a beautiful business.

Like, a beautiful business is just like, you have people there who actually want to do well.

It doesn't matter if it does end up doing well.

But that there is this desire, right?

Like, for you, you know, people come into your space, you have the opportunity to have a moment.

Sometimes you will, sometimes you won't, Right?

We don't know who they're going to be.

We don't know who we're going to be that moment.

But, like, there is this almost communing, this place where people can come together, right?

That's what business has the opportunity to do.

And it is so not what we have been trained to think about or do.

Like, think about this.

Like if people are talking to you about your business.

And, and I, I had this when I first started my business, like, oh my God, I just wanted to hit people.

But I was like, please, like, don't, don't ask me to qualify, like how well I'm doing based on either your standards or the world's standards.

Like, really, what is this definition?

We're evaluating it by, you know, and, and particularly like I had people from my past life who had been very successful in business.

What that meant was in the dollar amount of profit they had gotten a lot.

That was the definition.

So therefore that definition was the evaluation of whether or not my business was valuable in doing well.

And to me I'm like, wow, what a limited view.

Now I can say that I didn't feel that at the time.

I just felt inferior.

I guess I'm not doing well enough.

I guess I'm not making it.

Oh crap.

I didn't understand that's how the tax is worked over there, you know, and, and so like.

But I understand now.

I'm like, I, you know, I will listen to those folks.

I'm like, oh sweetie, you just don't get it.

There's such a bigger game and you're only playing this limited slice and bless you.

But like there's this whole game of magic which is just humans interacting with humans and yours is only narrowly defined by your dollars.

Oh, that's a shame.

Now again, I'm not going to say that out loud, but that's what I kind of think now, you know, now that I've had the experience to meet people like you and other folks who, who are just showing up with a heart and yes, we're going to, you're going to buy my mental health therapy services or you're going to buy my food.

And either one of it, I'm there to contribute, you know, in whatever fashion I'm meant to do.

Right.

Which is not always that common.

Yeah.

So what's it like to write and sell a book?

You know, I, I think depends.

So, so I had a, I was, you know, fortunate in my life experience to work with some folks who had published before and, and I was actually the right hand person.

So like I had, you know, in the big publishing world, I've met loads of publishers.

I've, you know, I've gone on media tours.

I've, blah, blah, blah, blah, fill in the Blank.

So I was really blessed in the sense that I understood what that game is and what the choices are in that regard.

And it is a totally valid choice for certain aspects.

And I knew that wasn't what I was doing, so I had an advantage in that regard because I knew I was going to put this book out, to put it out, and that was it.

Like, I had no, like, fantasies that it was going to pay my bills.

Like, no, I work my job and this is something else.

Right.

And again, I'm more than happy if all of a sudden, you know, it wants to.

I'm not going to get in its way, you know, for sure.

But, you know, the, you know, book publishing is a business like any other business, right?

And what, what people don't understand is how many millions and millions of beautiful books are out there that will never be on a bestseller list, right?

So, so the experience for me, I had this advantage because I got to let it be a labor of love, you know.

And so one of the beautiful things is, like, I have a business, so I can.

This is an expense.

I can pay for it.

I can do it in any way I want.

And so I was constantly picking my line of where I wanted to do it.

So, you know, I have a friend who just put a book out that's coming out in the first week in May that's gorgeous.

It's well crafted, it's beautifully designed, it's robust, it's going through a publisher, it's all those kinds of things.

And that's the right journey for her at the moment she's at.

And what she's doing, it's not what I was doing.

So for me, it was super satisfying just to do it, you know, because, like, how many of us have talked about things we're going to do like, well, someday, well, maybe when I retire.

Well, if this happens, like, we've got all these, like, wonderful pieces that we want to do, and so to actually write it, send it off to somebody.

I, you know, I chose to have somebody do my cover design and I have chose to have somebody do my interior design because, you know, if money were no object, there's all kinds of places I'd play in that regard.

So I, I did chose to do that.

I chose to self publish, but I chose to self publish under a publisher attached to another one because I wanted it in, like, you know, the Ingram distribution channels.

I wanted it available on Amazon, but also Barnes and Noble and also, you know, so, like, I chose that hybrid path in a way that I knew would work for me.

So for me, it was, like, amazing.

Just kind of amazing.

Like, I remember I got, you know, I've got this thing to my house, and I was like, oh, my God, it's real.

Look.

So there was such a joy in the creation of that.

And then, like any other thing, like when we bought this house, there was a moment in time I felt totally vulnerable, totally insecure, totally.

Oh, God, what have I done?

For those of you who haven't read the book, I tell vulnerable stories about myself and my body and my journey and all that kind of stuff.

And I am a highly private introvert.

And I'm thinking, oh, did I just throw up on myself?

And again, I have a friend who's an editor that worked for National Geographic for years.

I have other folks that.

And so, like, who am I?

Who am I to do this?

Who am I to put it out?

Like, so you had all of that, too.

So as much as this, you know, beautiful moment came, not enough was there.

With his voice strong as all get out right after, you know.

And so the good news is, like, I think where the beauty of the content of the book helped me was like, all right, I see you.

You know, like, I do hear you.

I'm not missing this.

And we're not gonna stay here too long.

So I allowed myself to indulge in some of those moments.

But, like, this is where.

And I think I might have told you guys this before, but, like, I just think we should all just do it.

Like, I hate to say the Nike slogan for them, but, like, why not?

Like, what is the harm?

Like, if you can make it happen, you know, I think there's a lot that our world needs from ideas and messages.

I don't think any one person's supposed to hold this message.

I had a very good advisor who said to me, by the way, when you put this out, all of a sudden you're going to see all the other enough books that have already been written that sound so similar that blah, blah, blah, blah.

And they basically said, please don't pay attention to that.

Like, you're here to do your own unique voice, your own thing, and it's not your business, like, to get into all of that.

And I think that really helped also, because, you know, I read the same topic from five different people, but it's different because they're different.

And I think the magic is, like, I really do believe this.

Like, we have our own sound.

You know, we have our own sound in the orchestra of life and where we get into trouble is where we try to, like, make someone else's sound.

And I think a book is an experience of sounding our chord, you know.

And so that was.

To be able to do that and the one woman show was the same.

To be able to put those two things out, like, kind of unapologetically, is some of the most empowering things I've done.

Because then after that, you're like, well, crap, now that everybody saw that, like.

Like, what's in the way of whatever the next thing is?

And I really do feel that way.

Like, it was an empowering launch point.

It was not a done thing.

Like, I'm probably gonna put out four other things.

I don't know.

Like, I'm just in this journey, open to whatever's next.

But, you know, and I'll go back to the.

The man woman thing.

I think when we don't have a society that's necessarily been in, you know, supportive of.

Of, you know, letting women take up space and do what they want to do, etc, then, you know, we do shrink away from things sometimes.

And, like, I'm at a place in my life where I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not gonna apologize.

Like, what a wonderful thing to have that out.

And I'm gonna give a very funny metaphor about this.

So I was traveling for work, for business, driving, staying in a Holiday Inn in this, you know, little middle America town.

And for whatever reason, I threw my bathing suit in.

Like, I'm not somebody who's like.

Like, my husband was like, a competitive swimmer.

Like, you know, that hasn't been my background, but I.

I have been.

I was sitting so much here and then sitting in my car, and I'm like, I have to move.

Like, I just have to move.

My back was hurt and all this stuff.

So, like, I chose this one night, I went down, just messed around in the pool.

There's nobody there.

You know, I found out later there was a conference of 700 female cops at the same holiday in which was.

The woman says to me, she's like, you should feel very safe.

But here's the fascinating moment.

So I'm walking back to the room and, like, they give you those little towels at the pool, right?

I'm sorry, it doesn't fit around my middle.

I can tuck it in my waist.

The thing's gonna fall off.

Like, I feel like it's a torture joke for someone of my, you know, middle.

And so the old part of me would have been like, oh, my gosh, you know, you Know, like, hide yourself, cover yourself.

Da, da, da.

There's conference on elevator, there's business people there.

And I just didn't care.

I was just like, you know, if my big body frightens you in this bathing suit, well, that is your problem, not mine.

You know, like all these things, right?

And I'm wet and I'm bleh.

You know, and I was so proud of myself.

I was just so happy to take up space in the Holiday Inn.

I was happy to take up space in the hallway.

I was happy to take up space in the elevator.

And I feel like that's what doing the book was, is like, oh, no, no, no, no.

You're going to exist, you're going to show up.

And yes, a thousand people may have an issue with it.

You know, they may have their own criticisms with.

I have my own stories on that as well.

But that's not my job, really.

Like, not my problem, not my job.

And it was so empowering, right?

And so again, it's these little micro moments that then I'm like, ooh, well, she did that.

And I wonder what else she's going to do.

I just had this image of your book soaking wet in an elevator.

Just like power standing.

I love it.

A little sassy maybe.

So how do we buy your book?

Amazon, barnes and noble.com.

you have to Google enough by Barbara Burgess, you know, to make sure you get the right one because there's loads of other enough books but available in all the places and spaces.

And then, you know, you can learn more on my website.

I have coreluma.com C-O R L U M A.com is my whole business.

But the.

There's a little book landing page that's be enough dot com.

And I put together just some weekly inspiration that's free that people can sign up for if.

Because like you said at the beginning, like, I don't remember, for gosh sakes, you know, so just to keep us inspired and remember.

Oh, I love that.

That's beautiful.

Is there anything else you want the listeners to know?

Gosh, I think just.

And I think it comes back to this writing the book thing.

Like, you know, life is short.

Like, let's just do this stuff, you know?

You know, I know there's lots of stuff out there about that, but if we could, you know, not make apologies for existing for who we are, for what our choices are, and just be bold about being ourselves, which is not anybody else's definition.

And again, that can look a lot of different ways.

But I Think I think it makes it a lot more fun.

You know, I think we then meet our right people.

You know, I think we tend to be surrounded by folks more that support us in the things that matter to us.

So mostly that, like my friends will joke now, like, if you have an idea, be careful if you get around her because she's probably gonna make you do it.

But I think that's the thing.

Right, let's do those things.

Why not?

I love it.

Well, thank you for joining us.

So enough be enough.

And Korluma and Barbara Burgess, we loved having you on today.

This was a great talk.

I could talk for another hour about this stuff.

Well, as soon as I knew I was going to be on here and I had the privilege of listening to some of your episodes, I'm like, oh my gosh, these are my people.

And like, if again, if the book just gave me an excuse to meet folks like you, I think it's worth it.

Well, thank you.

Thank you so much.

All right.

Love her.

I want to go to Chicago right now.

Let's just move there.

Screw it.

I love when a 30 minute episode turns into an hour.

I know, right?

Two sheets over here.

Yeah.

We didn't even talk about energy lanes.

Yeah.

Bullet fruit proof grace.

All kinds of things that we didn't even get to.

Hamster wheels.

Yeah.

Toxic people.

Yeah.

So, yes, you should get her book and you should read it and go to her website.

It's amazing.

She's amazing.

And I don't think, like I said, that she's going to tell you anything you didn't know, but it's going to be in a different way.

I think her tools are.

I think it's, it's very clever.

And I think it's an important time to start revisiting some of this stuff because as we've just talked about, I think it's just an important time to really start thinking about this stuff and really start reinforcing.

We do know what we're doing.

We are good at what we do and recognizing those small moments.

Well, it's like what, it takes seven times or something to learn somebody's name or like learn a new concept.

So we have to learn that we're enough.

We have to learn boundary setting.

We have to learn saying no.

We have to learn utilizing our people.

And that's something that you have to do over and over again and you have to learn over and over again until it sticks.

Absolutely.

So, yeah.

So Barbara Burgess.

Enough.

Kor Luma.

Get the book.

And don't forget to follow us at Bossy Rochester or bossyrock.com B O S S Y R O C Email us your ideas, your thoughts, your questions if you want to be on the show.

Bossyrock gmail.com and stay bold, stay brave, stay the boss.

Just switch that up on us.

I don't know why.

We'll be talking soon.