Larry

It was more sorted I felt, I've never felt it really described me. And I've always felt like my sexuality was is a part of me. But it doesn't define me.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface.

I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Today, we're hearing what it takes to live an authentic life, even when those closest to us might not approve. Larry says he was like Jekyll and Hyde growing up. On the one hand, he was a bit of a tearaway, he had no qualms about getting into fights. But there was a gentle side to him as well, there was a part of Larry that his dad never understood, until one day when he decided to change that.

Larry

Everything so it was kind of a teenager, I was always quite aware there was something other there with my sexuality, even from as young as a kid, you know, seven, eight years old. But even when I was telling my friends when I was like 1718, it was something that I never felt really right saying that I was this or I was that. So I used to say to my friends, oh, don't put me in a box. But that was from a very different time to me, he went through quite a traumatic time himself growing up. And it just got to the stage where I felt it was a massive barrier between us anyway, in terms of communication, the love was very much there, but the communication was kind of a bit stagnant. So I felt maybe frustrated that I needed him to know a bit more about my life. So when it comes to my sexuality, I wanted to tell him about it. And I knew I was going to do what I thought about it on and off. I used to work for this design company under reception. And I think I did it from there. I was having a phone call with him, and he just came out. I basically just said that I just, I need to tell you something, I need to tell you something about my life. And because my dad was such a worrier, and he was just, he had this thing about him that he could just make people laugh with one liners. And he was just a really hilarious guy. He was like an Irish Dell boy. And he was like, What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And I was I was not wrong with me. I said, I just need to tell you something about me in my life and say, What's wrong with you? And I was like, there's nothing wrong. So I was already becoming like, shut up and listen kind of thing. And I was like, listen, that was not wrong. I just need to tell you and share some something about me in my life, you know, you can know me a bit better, and we can, you know, communicate a bit better and whatnot. And I actually didn't say it, and he was just like, he kinda want to be quiet. I was like, Do you know what I'm talking about? And he went, What do you mean? What you mean, and I went, do you not want to talk to him? Do you know what I'm talking about? He went quiet for a second. And anyway. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And then he went, can you see the doctor and a priest about? We stand up just made me crack up. So like, it just it took the edge off would have been, I suppose. It kind of made it a little more like in the moment, because I just felt he knew, you know, I was in London. My aim was to be a dancer. So he kind of guessed that I didn't have a girlfriend and I hung around with girls. And I've always worn clothes like this was anonymise, lab mates back home, whatever we're like, we're like buffaloes back in the 90s. I platform trainers, skinny drawers, back then, back in wedstrijd. If you're anything different, or if you look different, or you're, you know, you're calling this or that or gay or whatever. So I suppose he knew. I just was asking him if he was alright. He was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Sorry. This all right. I just said a lot. She didn't. He said, I lost you as well. He didn't love me very much. Like, like you could see it in him sometimes. And the love was very much there. No matter how much chaos we went through. The love was always the thread that ran through our relationship until he died.

Alex

Why did you not say the words? I am gay to your dad?

Larry

I don't know be greedy. Because not because I was afraid to say the words to him. It was more so that I felt I've never felt it really described me. And I've always felt like my sexuality was is a part of me. But it doesn't define me. Obviously, you define some of your characteristics in terms of maybe the things you like, or you know, for some people, some people are really camp, some people are not camp in the slightest. Like, I just feel it's quite an open thing your sexuality and the only time I've ever said I'm gay over the years is just for ease of conversation with people. But yeah, but if somebody asked me, Do you have a girlfriend? He says, I said, No, I swing the other way or? And do I have any interest in girls now? There was a period where I did probably see myself more in the middle. But now Yeah, I don't see myself ever getting with a girl. But again, like I still don't feel the need to be boxed into a certain binary, you know?

Alex

Do you feel that your father characterised a stereotype of a masculine man?

Larry

Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. Like me, Dad was quite a masculine man. You know, he did hard labour all his life. He was quite a tough fella. He was an old Irish man as well, you know, and he was a sailor so Around the world. So like, Yeah, I think he's his, when he associated anything with gaming, it will be queer this or anything you know, or he associated with people like John Inman on on Are You Being Served or like, you know, and it can come comedians on TV or drag queens or whatever it might have been Janata me. So anything that was kind of camp and then he's only Association back home was probably maybe one person back home who was gay, but then he would have been like, the only gay in the village type. Who wanted my cousin's hung around would actually and they were together. But yeah, so it definitely definitely there was a rigid association there when it came to anything get kind of gay.

Alex

Did you feel a sense of pressure to live up to the way that your father was as this stereotyped masculine man? Did you feel like you had to go and play football or rugby or Well, I suppose for you to be Gaelic football and hurling

Larry

higher the Gaelic football, I did, I didn't, I did them all. I tried them all, I tried loads of things thrown up, I like I had so many like interests. And you know, I'd set up nature clubs, I'd be in karate one weekend, I'd be in a major X band, or I'd be like trying to play football, but running around to the wrong end of the field with the ball. I mean, so it just didn't interest me, man, I was all about like, pop stars in Hollywood. And like, you know, the glamour and like, it was just one agent, and I had this thing is as well, like, I always, I've always had this fierce, rebellious Ness in me, even though like, I could be a target by wearing particular things or whatever, or I still didn't care, I still do it. But I'd still have a consciousness that I got very conscious that people were looking at me or people were saying things or whatever it might be, but I still dating, because I refuse to be, you know, told by other people who are what I can't be. And that's always been the same since I was a little boy. Above it all, I've always just tried to be my true self. When you have different sides of your personality as well, I think people just think, Oh, well, you have to be this, you have to be that but no, we don't. Because, you know, like, when I'm with my straight mates, I am, a different sides of my character come out than they do with my gay mates. But then that's not me trying to be somebody for them. It's just different traits of my personality. And sometimes they inter mingle or whatever. Like you see people like, you know, Keegan Hearst, for example, coming out, and you know, he's a very masculine guy, but I'm sure when he's out on Canal Street in Manchester, when he's gay mates does a lot more RuPaul coming out in in Janome. So I think we should just embrace all of it and be like, not so afraid to be showing your vulnerable side, or it's very important as well, when your weight your straight friends or your male friends are. And there's that barrier where no one wants to talk, or everyone's trying to be bravado is off, like I try my hardest when I'm getting my straight face not to be like that, especially my friends back home, where it's much more of a masculine vibe, I tried to show them that, like, you know, you can be open, you can be vulnerable. And it doesn't have to be a negative thing, or you don't have to be seen as the lesser. That's the thing as well, if you guys are just afraid of being seen as like the lesser, and they're not masculine. If they do this, or they do that, which is really stupid, really,

Alex

when you say less than what do you mean? Like a hierarchy,

Larry

like it's like a pack mentality, isn't it? Like lions, like just the alpha, if you show weakness, then you're below that person. And then again, more weakness, you're below that person. So it's like kind of it's the person that feels probably the most damaged by that is the person who's probably going to end up like committing suicide, which is ridiculous, because those people in that pack should be all have to be seen as all have the same level and be there to pick up differences. And notice when their friends are like, you know, feeling mentally damaged, or are in a bad headspace, rather than just like taking the pace or laughing or like brushing it under the carpet. Because that's when you know dangerous things happen. And that's when people take their lives. And I think people live miserably because of that, trying to keep up with something that they're actually not because no matter how, how manly you are, how how masculine you deem yourself to be and what you do as a job or what you do with your life. Everybody has all guys have a feminine vulnerable side to them. But no matter how very, very deep, and maybe it takes bigger balls to embrace that and it ever doesn't have bravado and be running around thinking you're like, you know, fairly big tech.

Alex

There's been a massive call and a hope that Premier League football players who are gay will actually come out in that sort of setting. They're not willing to show any sort of feminine side because they're worried that you're going to be outed as gay. And that must be a horrible feeling for people.

Larry

Yeah. And it's really sad that it's a horrible feeling. Because it's again, you know, it's very disrespectful to like the gay community and to gay people because of this fear. It is, I think, to be like blunt about it, right? When you say to straight fellas and I've said I've had this experience works. I just had this talk with somebody before and I said to them, like, what's the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word gay? And I was and he was like, and I was like it's barman in it. You just think of like being bombed? He was like, Well, yes, also. And I was like, Why do you think why does your mind go straight to sex? When it comes to this do not mean, you're just bypassing the person and all you're seeing is like sex and like, negative stuff and like, all backs to the wall, and all that shit is ridiculous. You know what I mean? And I think that a lot of straight guys have distinct fear of being seen as like, again, because gay people have been seen as the lessor for a hell of a long time. And we know things are changing. But yeah, until a premier league player comes out, which is definitely few of them, until they have the, you know, the balls to come out and be themselves. And, you know, maybe they don't want to be a poster boy for it, whatever. They're gonna, they're gonna make headlines, but they should be also allowed to deal with it in their own way. They shouldn't have to be a poster boy for it. But football seems to be together to one where it's still a big taboo.

Alex

The reason why I use football is the number one sport in the country. And think about the influence that that could have on changing perceptions around homosexuality in this country. Because everyone knows who Cristiano Ronaldo is, everyone know who Harry Kane is, and all these other Premier League players, it could really change things because the word gay when I think of that word in society, it made me think of weakness, which is interesting, because it goes back to what it ties in with what you said about being lesser, or being lower down the lower down the hierarchy.

Larry

It's like, you know, the word gay there a few years ago, still a little bit now, but not so much was used. You hear a lot of kids in school going, Oh, my God, I saw gay. And like, I've heard kids saying that, and I pulled him up on it. Because, again, it's that you're, you're saying it in a way that like, it's the lesser? Oh, that's gay. It's like, no, that's, that's crap. Like, that's like, like, we don't want to be associated with that. And that's just another form of like homophobia, really, that kind of thing needs to be stamped out in the vocabulary the same way as other words, like the F word and stuff that needs to be stamped out as well.

Alex

I want to explore this, you and your father, and how did your relationship change? After you had the phone call, you know, six months a year, however many years down the line? Well, to

Larry

be honest, as he went on, he just kind of, I think he didn't try to brush it under the carpet. He knew, you know, but he did try to kind of he found it hard to accept. So again, there was still sometimes he would mention girls are getting married was like, I did have to tell him kind of twice more. But that was, you know, that was in a pub situation. And I was been upset about stuff. And I just kind of needed him to kind of get it. So I was trying to like make him understand. But he never, it never changed anything really. It didn't change us an hour. Really relationship was in Paterson, he never disowned me or judged me or anything like that. But he also the communication that didn't improve. So the communication that was a barrier that was already there was still was still there.

Alex

Yeah. Because he's come from such a different generation.

Larry

Yeah, because he grew up in a time where it was illegal to be gay. You know, in the 50s, he saw people who were gay, basically hunted and like, put in prison and beaten up all the time. And like, so he's experienced victories, like, he would have seen stuff like that happen. So it's it was ingrained in him. And then for his son to be saying to him, I guess it was kind of a scary thing for him as well, and fueled his anxiety and worry about me and what was gonna happen to me in my life?

Alex

Yeah, I think for the fact that as a 46 year age gap, I think, you know, there

Larry

will be other people out there with parents with where your parents were a lot older, and they were able to talk to those parents. And you know, it was just it comes down to the personality and that person's life and their experiences as well. I mean, like, in, in terms of like, sex education, there was zero, like nothing. Like, what I learned nothing in school, I think we special was a birth video once in science. That was as much as I got Sudan, like, you know, there was none of that I wasn't even allowed to watch kissing on like soap operas like HomeAway, or neighbours, whatever we thought would be like that. Look away. And it's always just, like, totally taught repression when it came to like, the sexual side of things. So I definitely couldn't talk to him about anything like that. I don't know, sometimes I do wonder if I was if I hadn't got, you know, if I was with a girl, I got married, whatever, would I be able to talk to a bit more, and I still don't think I would have been able to, because that side of things was just totally off limits. We'd never spoke about anything to do with sex or, you know, so again, in terms of like, my emotional state, and my metre normal, more about me want him to know more about my life. I also couldn't talk to him about anything to do with sex. So just to to kind of barriers there, you know, so it was it's quite a lot for me to like, keep keep in. So I think that was one of the maybe one of the reasons as well, I thought maybe telling them might help us communicate there.

Alex

You hear about a lot of people who are gay and they they get married to someone just to appease their parents, but in your case, it sounds like it wouldn't have even changed the relationship anyway, it just would have mean that you would have been living in authentic life because you're not allowed to be who you really are. Oh, yeah,

Larry

no, totally. I think my dad would have been really happy by adding America's he would have taught, or that's by No, he's, he's settled, he can have some children and he would have, I'm sure he got on really well with the wife, and he would have loved to have seen the grandchild, he would have been, you know, but you know, that wasn't that's not who I am. And that's not what I where my life was meant to be. So, yeah, but I mean, you know, people have done that. And people still doing that to these today, you know, in other countries and stuff, and probably here in the UK as well. But Gareth Thomas was married for more number of years living living a double life, you know, so

Alex

he's an interesting guy, because obviously, he's come from that really muscular in pursuit of rugby. Yeah, obviously, he came up many, many years ago. Now.

Larry

Yes, because she has that attitude. Indeed, in interviewing attitude magazine, I remember it read and I think he came out in a newspaper door. But I remember his interview with attitude magazine was really, really interesting. And really quite an important thing, probably for a lot of young lads to read. This is it as well, like you got you notice, some of the things you see in media and stuff can really have an impact on, you know, under words, people hear from podcasts, or wherever they can really help somebody, you know, feel who is feeling very lost in the moment, whether it be to mental health or their sexuality, just to hear to someone else's gone through it have come through it, or has dealt with it in a way to maybe they're not dealing with it. It can really like, you know, say somebody,

Alex

did you change as a man in any way after the conversation with your data and coming out to him?

Larry

No, I don't think so. I always tried to just live my authentic self, regardless of what people think of me, and you know, regardless of judgments, and that, but obviously you like as you're growing up, that's, that's a journey in itself.

Alex

Yeah. How did you change as a man after coming out?

Larry

I suppose I was very, it was probably more conscious of it, when every time I went back home, because people knew and stuff like sort of more people knew. And I was probably more conscious of it. And like, you know, sitting into Power BI be maybe a little bit paranoid, or somebody be thinking, Oh, he's the gay one. He's gay, or whatever. You know what I mean? So I suppose if you're stuck in a bad way, but also, yeah, obviously, it's, it's more free when you're not trying to not sure I ever really tried to hide it anywhere that much. But I didn't, I didn't kept it from my dad,

Alex

after you came out in 2005. And you went into pubs, and, you know, people knew about you being gay. Were you trying to put on this sort of masculine side? Or were you just being yourself, you know, trying to, because because it probably wasn't as accepted, then,

Larry

I would say there was times that I probably dumb it down a bit. Like I had, I've always had, like, an anxiety about going home, whether that be to do with my dad, and his drinking, or whether it was to do with previous bullying, or judgments or people, you know, just just the paranoia, and I kind of an anxiety. And I literally only brought that anxiety this year. Like, yeah, which was crazy. And such, it's such a weight lifted as well, because like I said, I've never cared what people thought when I got home, but I was very conscious that I was making myself stand out. But to be fair, Ireland has changed so much in the last 24 years. It's like, unbelievably, the changes are unbelievable. They're like, there's so many like, gay kids, trans kids, whatever non binary kids in Ireland and like, they address it more, it's more interesting schools. I think it's worse because like the Catholic religion is its grip has been less than London country. So I think, you know, obviously, Ireland was, I think, believed the first country in the world to legalise gay marriage by a referendum from the people, which was amazing. So you know what I mean? So they're paving the way it was paving the way as a country. And also, I think just attitudes have changed, you know, as generations change. And like, nobody's ever said anything to me actually, nobody's ever said any apart from stuff in school. But in terms of being an adult, nobody's ever I can't think of any I can give a couple of comments but and like some Navid from school who like turned around when I went to shake his hands like that. That was one instance. But yeah, like, other than that, I can't really think of it no one's ever really said anything to me. Plus, I've had my girls around me and my friends like fiercely protected me.

Alex

You cannot the protection from Irish girls. You're probably starting. Laura, can you just very briefly mentioned about your about the books you've written?

Larry

Yes, I've got three books. Well, two of my own one is a collaboration books. My first book is called being brave. Second book, on the back of my first book, which I got asked to be part of was, it's called the Book of hope. So that was 101 voices talking about their mental health journeys and tools. And then my newest book just came out earlier this year. It's called the mindset handbook. And that's me sharing it First thing I've kind of learned in the last five years since being brave come out, kind of in a shorter punch your hand handbook style, but about mindset and various other things from visualisation to comparison and judgement. Yeah, so they're all out now on Amazon.

Alex

We often wear masks in public that can enhance certain aspects of our personality, and reduce other aspects. But there's a balance to it as well, because if we enhance or reduce excessively, it feels like we're not being our true selves. Why do we feel the need to do this as men? People have lots of ways that they define themselves. And a lot of what we do is we label people. He's a gay guy. She's this he's that Larry has made the decision not to define himself by his sexuality. So perhaps we don't need to define his story by his sexuality as well. In a lot of ways, this episode was about the old generation and the new generation. Larry is a progressive, open minded guy. His dad was more old school and wanted him to have that nuclear family life, wife and two children and live a traditional life in Ireland. I was really impressed by the fact that Larry was very understanding of his dad, and understood that he came from a completely different background and had a completely different reality to him. He didn't show any anger or frustration towards this, even though his dad didn't accept his sexuality. And at the end of the day, we can't control the feelings and emotions of other people. All we can do is control our own thoughts, feelings and emotions. I think a lot of times we want to change our parents. I know I've done that as well in the past, and I felt a lot more love and happiness in their presence and really as part of the whole relationship. Once I've just accepted them for who they are.