We're trying to put a big barn in our property, right.

To consolidate.

There's three shitty other out dwellings on our property, which you just want

to consolidate, make it a bit bigger.

Have an office and a place where we can work.

The council goes to advertising first.

All our neighbors are like, yep, happy days.

That sounds amazing.

You know, we've got reclaimed tin from, uh, warehouse in Collingwood.

We've got a pile of reclaimed bricks ready to go on.

We want to try and make it feel like it's been there for 50 years.

Yep.

Right.

So go to advertising.

And that's the first thing Council does go to advertising.

Yeah.

I'm like, wouldn't you do that at the end when you've done all your checks

and balances and made sure that it fits in with all the criteria from all of

the overlays that are on the property?

And then ask the neighbors.

But you're doing it that first and then you are seeing

if it's okay in the council.

'cause you've wasted everyone's time.

Yeah.

But you know why they do it.

No, I don't.

What happens in my world is they will want to test the temperature of community, the

officers, in order to get an understanding of, um, what the elected officials,

what their position is likely to be.

Yeah.

So when they're putting reports up to elected officials, they

have an understanding of what the, like the likely direction of the.

Council's position will be, yeah, because there's this disconnect between

the officers and the elected officials.

Okay.

So what do they define as community then?

Anybody who objects.

But that, the thing is, what I get frustrated with is that it

doesn't take into account the people who seem like, Hey, I love this.

Like, that gets pushed aside and ignored.

Yeah.

But that's, but that's like, gets to the heart of one of

the other problems we've got.

Is that like people have lost an understanding of how the world works?

Yeah.

So the, the world's run by people that show up.

You know?

Yeah.

And so if you don't show up and actively participate in the Democratic system,

um, it doesn't matter what you say on social media, it just, it doesn't matter.

'cause it doesn't influence the outcome.

So if you are not showing up to council meetings and, and voting

and, and, and getting involved in that process, the people who do

show up are controlling the system.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

It's people who have the most amount of time.

So it's the retired people.

Yep.

And of the people who understand how the world works, who or

don't have any friends who've got nothing better to do with their time?

Well, yeah, I'll say

it.

I totally,

we're already going, but like we've already started that.

I mean,

I'm assuming we started the episode.

Yeah, like, because its an, it's, it's, it's an interesting conversation.

We, me throw to you 'cause you're gonna, you,

you've got a great question 'cause you are a developer.

And words that are typically associated with developers are like, greedy.

Um, arrogant.

Uh, what makes you different?

Oh, man.

The, like, the perceptions of developers, it's such a shame

because there's so much truth to it.

Like, unfortunately, uh, I've, I've worked with and for some of these people.

And, and it's a real shame because like, trust is broken and, and

that's across the entire system.

I guess the trust is broken between community and the development industry.

Um, you know, trust is broken, you know, in part between builders

and the development industry.

So it's, it's, it's an incredibly complicated topic.

What makes us different?

The reason I'm a developer and, and it's kind of a long

answer to this question, but.

I, I guess my old man was a builder and growing up I'd been around

building sites my whole life and he'd, he'd built big commercial projects.

Um, you know, Melbourne Central is one of the largest projects.

He, oh, geez,

that's pretty cool.

He was on, and so that was like a five year project.

So I was a young kid.

I, I'd go to Melbourne Central, um, every school holidays watch that, that.

Um, being built.

It's obviously above Melbourne Central Station, so there's huge in ground

component to that project before the town.

Who was the builder of that?

John?

I remember that.

You know, as a kid, I

remember

that.

Yeah.

So it was Kumu gci, it was a Japanese company, um,

Japanese construction company.

So, uh, and Di Maru, the, the, um, you, you, you know, the shopping center,

um, Japanese Shopping center brand that they were in there to begin with.

So this was like kind of late eighties, early nineties, sort of like peak Japan.

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

Times and, and just exposed to that process.

And I guess like that I got my affinity for buildings and

building through that experience.

It's funny you look back on those seminal experiences of why you attracted to.

You to some things.

What captured your imagination as a kid?

You know, for me it was definitely that process.

I've got, I've got a little painting I painted in like grade

three of Melbourne Central.

Um, but I've still got at home.

It's just, just a nice like reminder and won a little art

competition back in the day.

And, you know, for, for my old old man's, um, on my, my stepdad's,

um, 50th birthday, he took this awesome photo standing on top of one

of the SPIs in Melbourne Central.

And it was just with an old, you know, um.

Film camera, but he'd, he'd taken a, a, a stage shot from on the top of the spire.

I kind of stitched that together in Photoshop for him, and, and

that was his present for his 50th birthday, which was pretty nice.

'cause it was sort of like, it had captured that whole period.

But yeah, like I, I guess I'd seen the commercial side of building, which was

very, you know, financially focused and.

Yeah, whilst I had a, had a real love for building, um, I, I, I, um, I,

I went to university and, and, um, I originally got into art science.

Uh.

Long story spent first year there, went out, went out with a girl who was studying

landscape architecture, was exposed to the architecture faculty through that

and, you know, ended up ditching, um, the idea of doing medicine and, and,

and, um, and flipped into architecture.

And that was the beginning of me sort of finding my path, I guess.

And you, you know, I have a real sense of like.

A strong sense of responsibility is what kind of underpins who I am.

So medicine was an extension of that.

I wanted to kind of like be part of the solution.

You, you know, flipping into architecture gave, gave me a more

macro view on what that meant.

Like the, the city, um, the region.

Um, the role of buildings within society, the role of cities within society, um,

particularly the intersection between buildings and cities and public health.

So, um, the way in which we design, um, the shape of our city and how that can

have po positive social outcomes at scale.

Though those sorts of topics of real interest to me as part of the

reason why we have our sustainability consultancy, we can, we can be at the

table helping to make better decisions.

Um, at that macro scale.

But yeah, look, I started off in architecture, did three

years of architecture, spent some time in architecture.

At the time you did three years, and then you did a year of practical experience.

Kind of spent some time in a, in an office, an architectural office.

And yeah, I don't know, just, just, um, there's a real frustration

I guess sometimes within, within architecture at the lack of control.

Like I think, you know, particularly in Australia, architects are really,

they're heavily involved upfront.

At at larger scale projects and there comes a point where, you

know, the architect's design role is innovated across to a builder

and architects really get cut out.

Yeah.

And it's a real shame because it's really limited the role of the architect.

I. In larger scale projects, it's a little bit different on single res where

the architect's still involved from where to go and they project manage

and they deal directly with builders.

And so that doesn't happen

in commercial.

The architect's gone and does the builder then take over like the indemnity on the

insurance, uh, indemnity on the design?

It's a really, it's a really good question.

Um, 'cause under the design and contract, uh, design and construct model,

essentially the principle, and this is all driven by financiers by the way.

Yeah.

It's like the bank requires a, pretty much a design and construct

contract to be in place, which is a guaranteed kind of maximum price.

The design risk is transferred from the principal to the head contractor.

The head contractor then requires all of the sub consultants, one

of which is the architect to you.

You know, they, they require them for their PI insurance.

Yeah.

But essentially the design performance obligations are placed on the

head contractor by the principal.

So the architects there pretty much only for their insurance.

It's really perverse.

So, so why would

you, why would you go design.

One of those buildings knowing that they just want your insurance and

they're probably gonna get, you're probably gonna get sued because

on those massive buildings on a residential project, there are problems.

Yeah.

Weekly.

Yeah.

I can imagine a scale of that size

that is like a really, really good question.

I don't have the answer for that.

There's a, there's a, it's a really good question.

I'm just, seems illogical.

Yeah.

There.

Therein lies one of the conundrums, right?

So, um, even our sustainability team, our better buildings team, when we're working

on large projects, you know, we'll do the upfront sustainability advice, then we're

innovated across to the head contractor.

Yeah.

We then work for the head contractor.

Our PI insurance is on the line for the work that we've done.

So you're still involved, like you can still continue to

consult through that process,

you consult and depending on the principal's objectives, so.

Um, you know, if the principal's objectives are profit maximization,

that they're perhaps, um, the incentive between the builder's profit motive and

the principal's profit motive is aligned.

Um, IE the, the head contractor, you know, pushing the consultants really hard to

water down the design and basically get away with the bare minimum so the head

contractor could carve out their margin.

Is, is aligned with the, the principles.

Yeah.

Um, interest.

For us, we have a carve out clause in our DNC contracts.

Um, number one, we design a lot further before we hand over to a builder.

So we'll design typically to 80 to 90%.

Um, you know, standard industry practice might be 50% or less.

Yep.

Some developers, so you

de-risk

mate some developers designed to 25% and then handball it to the head contractor.

Wow.

Um, you know, off a set of renders.

You know, and then the head on track D actually you getting

a surrenders and go, Hey mate,

go build it.

Yeah.

I, I, I mean, it's a lot different because you've got your, your client is the person

that's gonna be ultimately living in the home, so there's a, you know, yeah.

The, there's not pa there's, there's not enough parallels there to say, Hey,

what would you do in that situation?

But, but that's

our client too, right?

So our client as a developer.

Whereas hit versus, hi, our client is our customer, the

person who we've sold a home to.

Yeah.

And so we've gotta carve our clause in our Dan c contracts, which if

say the architect or any, any one of our key consultants that have been

innovated to their contractor, if they have concerns that the intent

of the design is not being followed.

There's a carve out clause that enables them to raise their

hand with us as the principal.

'cause standard DNC contracts don't have that carve out clause.

Yeah, yeah.

That's one of the ways that we maintain oversight through that DNC process.

If that clause isn't there, you won't do the project.

If the head contractor wasn't willing to agree to that clause,

we wouldn't, we wouldn't engage

them.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

I. I guess shows your ethics and your values, like to actually

have that clause in there.

'cause surely it would be a lot easier for you as a business not

to have that clause in there.

Yeah, it's easier, but like, again, it comes down to like, what's our objective

as a developer, you know, we, we are fundamentally an end user focused

business.

Well, that, I mean, I think that was the question that you were trying to get

to before, Matt, that that's the answer right there of what sets you apart.

As hip versus hype as the developer, hip versus hype than other developers

because you guys actually have the best intentions of that end user insight.

Yeah, and, and look, I see personally, I see commercial alignment there.

'cause any, any brand that I. Am am attracted to outside of the

built environment, they produce products and, and seek to maximize

the customer's experience.

If you do that, people continue to buy from you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, if you cut corners and, and you don't honor your promise, people

aren't gonna continue to buy from you.

So there's fundamentally commercial alignment there.

As a business though, we probably believe in a little bit more than that.

Like we believe in.

Every day when you, when you go to work, you get to make a choice.

You know, am am I here to just make money or am I here to try and

leave the world in a better place?

And fundamentally, we made the choice that every day when we

come to work, we're gonna try and make the world a better place.

And, and that just changes your mindset, right?

You, you go the extra mile 'cause you, you do do work that you don't get paid for.

And you guys get this, you guys are doing the same.

I'm, I'm sitting here smiling right now, thinking of all the, like the

last two or three days for me have been SBA Mind for Builder podcast.

Two things that I don't get paid for.

Yeah.

But.

I fill my cup up.

Yeah.

I feel like I'm maybe in a very small way making a difference

to the broader industry.

Yeah.

And like every time I, you know, do stuff like this, I think to myself,

what are my kids gonna think of me?

Totally.

Because I'm not that person out there.

It's just all about money.

Money, money.

Totally.

Because I could 100% make a fuck load more money if I was just

concentrating on sanctum homes.

Yeah.

No doubt about it.

But like, where, where does that, where does that put you like.

You know, is buying a Ferrari and a fancy Rolex watch and, and

staying in five star hotels, am I, I gonna be happy with, with that?

Fuck no.

No.

Yeah.

Am I gonna be happy surrounded by people who give a shit, who I have

meaningful relationships with, who have a shared journey in, in, in trying

to make the world a better place?

Matt, talk about fulfillment.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Yeah, definitely.

Look, listening to all your experience and I guess your, fuck, I hate the word

journey, but I'm gonna use it anyway.

Like your journey to get to where you are now.

Like, um, and I know what, one thing I do want you to touch on quickly is just, you

had quite a bit of practical experience on site, um, during your architecture,

and I think that's, that's an important piece before I go on to maybe talk about

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well.

Probably starts started even earlier than that.

Like my stepdad, you know, he is a, he is a, got his garage and he is a

bit of a nutty, nutty scientist, you know, so, uh, we, we always had a

garage, always had access to tools.

Um, probably did stuff that I should have at a, at an early age, like was,

you know, using a drop saw at eight.

And what's wrong with that though?

I think totally unsupervised.

Have we just gone into the cotton wool wrap the kids?

'cause now you've got kids.

Would you let your kids at that age use a drop saw?

I,

I would, but I would give them a little bit more instruction than I was given.

Right.

Okay.

'cause I've like sharded bits of aluminum off and I'm pretty lucky

they didn't get me in the head.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Um, but you know what I mean, like all been theirs.

Yeah.

They've all been there.

Yep.

Um, but fundamentally that experience of picking up a 12 inch angle grinder

and knowing how much torque it's got.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, and having that in your hands is.

Is pretty important.

Yep.

I think kids have lost that though.

I think we're in a generation now where they spend all their time in front of

the computer and there's a, I think as we go in time, there's gonna be less

people that want to get their hands dirty and, and, and go down that road.

And I think the trade industry's gonna be really hurt in the future.

I think we, it's already hurt.

I also feel like it's in our little bubble.

It's not 'cause we find skilled people.

Yeah, yeah.

As a wider society.

Maybe not.

Yeah.

But you guys are, that, that like the answer to Amy's question I guess.

Like, you know, I look, I had this background on tools

and I'd always loved it.

So I've always liked how things are put together.

It's always something that I've been really interested in, but like.

Three years in architecture.

I spent three months in an office.

It's like, fuck this.

I'm not, I'm not doing this.

And, um, a, a friend Alan Ting, who now works for Waddle, who's an

incredible architect, is Alan's one of these architects that takes the

time to figure out how stuff's built.

Yeah.

As whilst he's designing it.

And Ward All As a practice is really big on that intersection.

Yeah.

Cool.

Um,

that John Ward?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's in house.

Sound Angley.

He's gorgeous

mate.

His.

Yeah.

That, that officer's work is unbelievable.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, and Alan, Alan was working for

60 Degrees.

Sorry, John.

John.

John Water.

That's, um, the Shearers Quarters down in at Bruny.

Yeah, that's,

you can hire

that by hands down, like one of my favorite.

Buildings.

It's on Airbnb.

Yeah.

Someone has said

that to me.

You can like go down and, and have a birthday party with a bunch of,

oh, you need get John Waddle.

John Wattle, if you're listening, because I'm sure you are.

I'd love for you to come on.

Um, well it'd be good to get a bunch of builders down to check out that

Yeah.

Shed room because the details there and, and mate, we should do a SBA event.

Less done.

Alright, done.

So you, you speak about a bit, and I've spoken to in the

past about not getting paid.

And so you go to a meeting to try and push a development.

And I remember making the comment that you might have someone

from the government there.

You've got a, a planner there.

Yeah.

They're both getting paid to be there no matter what happens.

You are not.

Yeah.

Happens a bit.

And how, how does that affect the way that you then go about pushing a

further, like a better building that,

oh look, I just look for alignment wherever I can in life.

Like you gotta look for win-win situations.

Um, and so you might not be getting paid on the day, but.

Like for, for example, for me, you know, because we have our sustainability

advisory business, because we do a lot of work with government at

all sorts of different levels, I can justify my time two ways.

I can say, Hey, I've got a seat at the table.

I'm influencing better outcomes.

Yep.

That's number one.

Number two, hey, uh, I might meet someone who I can connect, you

know, our team with, and, and maybe that leads to an opportunity for

us to help, help out at some point.

So it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's less.

You know, corporate where it's like, unless this is

gonna result in an immediate opportunity, I'm not gonna do it.

You pay the long game.

But I think I

take a little bit of a longer view on building relationships.

I think

if you look at the evolution of hipper hype over the years, if you

weren't doing the things that you do, the way you weren't getting paid

Yeah.

The opportunities wouldn't present themselves.

You

can't, you couldn't do it.

You can't do it.

So, so you, by you doing, and look, I think about the things that we're,

I'm doing at SBA, the things that we're doing with this podcast,

they're creating opportunities.

Yeah.

To sit down and have conversation with people like you or whoever we get on

here because this conversation might lead to something over here, which then

might lead to something over there.

It will.

And I think that's important for people who are listening to understand that.

Yeah.

Every time you do something, don't think about, well, am I getting paid for this?

Yeah.

It's like, what are the opportunities that could come outta this?

Yeah.

And also like, I think, um, I, I have full confidence that.

And, and this has been proven time and time again, is that there might

not be an immediate opportunity, but I have full confidence that

an opportunity will, will emerge.

Yeah,

and it's like one of those funny things in life, you know, when

you're stuck and sometimes you feel like you're, you're backed into a

corner and you've got no options.

And the moment in time where you make that really difficult decision.

Um, the day after a bunch of doors open.

Yep.

You know, I can't tell you how many times that's happened, but the, the, the

confidence or, or to make that really hard decision takes, it might take six months

and you feel like you've got no options.

As soon as you take that decision, mate, you wake up the next day and

it's a mindset thing, like your shoulders are back, you're more relaxed.

Yes.

And then you meet someone and they're like, oh, I've got this going on.

And, and, and boom, you're off.

It's a big

brand awareness really, isn't it?

I, I

don't, I'm sitting here smiling because I reckon every single time that I've

been had my back in a corner or in the bottom of a trough or whatever,

like I look back on those moments with the most fondness because.

One, I'm in problem solving mode, and two, I'm like, I've gotta

fucking fight to get outta here.

Yeah.

And there's no other option.

Yeah.

Than working through it.

And you're right, you get on the other side of it and it's

like the fucking clouds part.

Yeah.

And there's light everywhere and everything's positive.

But yeah,

I would say that's one of the biggest skills I've developed

through time is getting comfortable.

You never really get comfortable, but getting more comfortable with my back

against the wall and trying to, trying to.

Have an open mind as much as possible.

'cause like as soon as you narrow, you just, you just miss opportunities.

Yeah.

You know, whereas like your back's against all, okay, I'm fucked.

Like, you know, I've got a fair bit on here.

But try and keep an open mind Yeah.

Present and, and be aware of the, the opportunities as they emerge.

But

even, even just have the understanding that this is a

moment in time and then you Yeah.

Dig into your brain and go, hang on, I've been here 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 times before.

Yeah.

And.

I've always gotten out of it.

Yeah.

So it's just, you said, you said it's about backing yourself.

Yeah.

And you build, you build little, you build little strategies, you

know, like, it's like a fuck.

You know, I've gotta carve out some time.

I've gotta go for a walk.

I've gotta go for a surf.

Gotta go for a ride.

Gotta do something.

Gotta get my, just don't watch

Carlton.

You don't watch Carlton.

The fuck.

We're not talking about football anymore.

If

you want your anxiety, go back up.

Just chuck foot.

I'll stop.

I'm,

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm quite quit football.

Um, do you know

what's so good about, like it's so good seeing sauce back

on the park though, because.

Like, you know, I kind of feel like it's, we all, we have to hold onto.

Well he's just, he's just passion.

The passion and fire and like sitting for 12 months on the sideline clearly.

Like, it just, it's gotta be a reminder to the rest of the team, like how lucky

they are to be playing footy and like, get out on the park and just give it your all.

Yeah.

Hi.

Hi.

My anxiety at the moment just gone.

I'm going to Perth for two games.

I'm rap so I'll be delayed now.

You do when you have your back up the wall.

A lot of the conversations you are having, the answers are obvious.

So they, they're quite frustrating conversations.

'cause you're like, guys, you need to see clearly through this, not

just go through the bureaucracy and the crap that you guys have to deal.

How do you, how does that affect you?

Because it must take a huge mental toll on you when you're like, the

answers here, it's plain and simple.

But that year could take a year for them to understand that that's the answer.

Yeah.

Um, I'm still not good at this.

Like when I was younger, I used to get way more fired up.

Have a yell, whatever.

It, it doesn't work.

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't, doesn't, doesn't solve problems.

Doesn't get people on your side.

You know, at the end of the day, most people are doing

what they think is right and.

Most people are trying to do a good job.

Um, I

think they're doing a good job.

I think

they're doing a good job.

Fundamentally, it all

comes down to their bosses and stuff because if they're being taught

that way and they're being say hypothetically, cancel a forever,

and that's what their boss has done, they just think that's normal.

They haven't been exposed to other ways of doing things.

Yeah, totally.

And, and then you come across some people that are just absolute pricks.

And they, they exist.

I'm dealing with a couple at the moment, in my experience, genuinely, I reckon

those people are few and fre, but they exist and they have a big impact.

So it's more, it's probably better to say that You prefer to, to disrupt.

Yeah.

You know what I, I would prefer to enable.

Good people and it as a strategy, so like the work we're doing together

at BBX here, like just even making this space available for you guys.

Yeah.

It's just like seeing what collectively you're up to and saying,

how can I help in my small way?

Yep.

How, how can I like do something?

And then I rack my brains and I'm like, okay, where do we have spare capacity?

Or where do I have something that's otherwise not doing anything?

All right.

And then if we can create alignment and enable good people like, like.

I, it's just that's gotta be your counter to the negative bullshit.

Yeah, totally.

It's like the negative bullshit is here, but hey, how can I fill my cup

up with as much positivity as possible?

It's so

hard.

Everything in these days, day and age is all negative hook, negative, click bait.

Like that's all itself.

Yeah, you're

really good at that.

Yeah.

On your social media,

Matt, but it's what, it's what people get engaged by.

Yeah.

Like I have no following of say the Daily Mail, but their shit pops up all the time.

'cause obviously people are clicking on it.

Yeah.

Because of the, the tagline like.

The words they use is like brutal, honest, like confusion that people are like, oh,

I need to see what's happening there.

Yeah.

But I think there's like a deep psychological thing going

on there where people have a negative, a negative news bias.

Like Yeah, like it works, it sells, um, sex and negativity sells.

Um, unfortunately, and I think it

forever will.

I don't think it changes.

I think it's pretty

hard coded.

Yep.

Um.

So hip first hype, we talked about development.

That's just one small part, and we did touch on the environmental side of things.

Yeah.

But like hip first hype seems like, okay, so the overarching business, hip

first hype, but there seems like there's multiple different businesses within Yeah.

The organization.

Could you maybe expand on a little bit of that?

If I step back a couple of questions, like, you know, having

spent three months in an office.

Um, Alan Ting was working, um, uh, for six degrees in the office at the time.

One of the directors there, mark Healy, was building his house in North Melbourne.

He needed some, um, labor.

Yep.

I just put my hand up and, and, and went and saw Mark and said, Hey, I'll, I'll do

the laboring job, but we'll use sign off on my year of architectural experience

in return for doing laboring work.

And he agreed to do that.

So.

The rest of that year I spent working on, um, mark Healy's house in North

Melbourne with a builder called Frank, where's Alfredson and his crew.

And he's a builder, kind of like you guys, right?

Like he's building high-end architectural staff in order to achieve that

level of finish, he's got, he's got crews of people who give a shit.

Yeah, his electrician gave a shit, his plumber gave a shit, his renderer.

Really?

It's really not

hard.

You're already going to work.

Like you're actually making the choice to get outta bed.

Wake up, have your breakfast, grab your coffee, get in the car, get to work.

Just give you, you're already there.

Just give a shit.

Well, I, like, I, I, there are just so many people that don't fit that boat.

I know, but like you've

done, you've done 99% of the work to try to get there,

but you know how unique it is.

Like, and, and I tell you what, like.

I, I remember this renderer, Claude is fucking classic.

You talk about hard set plaster and, and cement render this guy

like, so as soon as those guys found out I was studying architecture,

like at Smoko, I'm like screwed.

They're just like, this is how you do it.

Don't do it that way.

You do it this way.

I'm getting that from everybody.

Yeah.

And then I like, it was, it was kind of seminal for me 'cause like

it was really a process of going, what, you know, these people are

experts at their thing, you know?

And so who am I to tell them how to do their job?

Unfortunately, at architecture school, you don't get taught that.

You get taught, you are the architect and you know best.

And, and so there's this intersection, right?

So I'm at architecture school and I'm, I'm listening to lectures about

Luke Cab Boozier and me Vanderau and how they're the fucking, the saviors

of the world, of the modern world.

And going to architecture theory subjects, talking about masculine

and feminine build all this bullshit.

There is so much bullshit.

Um,

I love where this is going.

And then, and then I'm going to site talking to guys who are absolute

experts at what they're doing and have so much knowledge to impart

on how to build a good building.

And then I'm going back to university and learning nothing about how to build a

good building if I'm to be rudely honest.

And so that intersection's really fascinating.

So then, then that sets you off in a direction, um, of, well, okay, I'm

gonna, I'm gonna find what I can in this architecture world, uh, around

what constitutes good building, what actually constitutes good building.

So then you start gravitating to, you know, some of the famous architects

like Alva Alto and shop architects, these groups that are really focused

on the craft, that intersection between design and craft, and.

And, and what it takes to build a good building.

I feel like

that's coming back to residential right now though, because I feel like the

architects we are talking to are that

more and more.

I think so.

I think

I really feel like maybe, again, we are sheltered, but I feel the architects we

get to come, come across our desk really would take the time to like call up that

render, like, Hey, how would you do this?

Yeah.

And I, and I think that's happening more and more

and, and I actually feel that even in the last six months there's

been, uh, even just a slight switch.

Yeah.

To, to there being.

Well, I'm talking about this whole collaborative thing, but I actually feel

like we're actually starting to move into a space where there is collaboration.

Yeah.

It's not just a buzz word.

No genuine collaboration.

More genuine collaboration.

And

that's, that's like, again, I, I think I, I don't see that at scale.

I see that in niche, unfortunately.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but I do see it and, and you know, like.

You just gravitate.

There's been these architects for ages, you know, like, again, Alan, who I

mentioned before, he worked for Alan Powell out of university, Alan Powell's,

one of the greats that pencil, um, architects who actually drew buildings and

didn't draw, you know, in, in computers.

So like there's a tangible relationship between what you drawing and, and kind

of a greater depth of knowledge required to how the building's put together.

That's a really interesting point.

Do you actually think that as you are physically drawing something.

The building makes more sense to you rather than doing

it in CAD personally, pros and cons.

Um, but at a micro residential scale, I, I would say a hundred percent.

Yep.

I would say I've had some really, really interesting experiences where

I've chucked on a set of VR goggles and, and gone through a bigger

building and you start identifying.

Like issues.

So you, you best thing to say is, you know, when you, when you build a building

and it starts to, you, you know, come out of the ground and, and then you'll go

to get the plaster on or, or like you'll see a critical detail then your face and

you are like, oh fuck, that's not right.

And then, and then, okay.

And then there's probably five different trades that intersect

into actually solving that problem.

Yep.

What I've seen with VR is you can chuck a set of goggles on a walk

through a space and identify.

Some of those points.

Yeah, we

do that on a lesser scale with the BMX models.

Yes.

I feel like one fell, the architect uploads engineering that that's a problem.

That's a problem.

That's a problem.

That's a problem.

We have a problem.

We have a lot problem.

Problem.

The word, because it's like you're getting it early, so it's not a problem

until it actually becomes a problem.

It's just like, Hey, it's an issue.

Or that could be a problem on site.

Yeah.

It really hard to pick up.

But also from a design perspective, you know, I remember.

Went to a mate's house that he built and he, he'd come in the front door

and he's got these beautiful big bink windows to the rear of the house.

And then he's, he's kind of got a double height space at the rear and

then set back from that is the living room and had big steel beam coming

across to pick up and bedrooms above.

Yeah, this was above the kitchen zone and just the height that

that steel beam had been set at, um, obscured, kind of like the.

Um, the, the horizontal on the window and the whole thing just didn't quite work.

And I reckon that, that to me was like, all right, we'd actually gotten into

a model and stood at the entry point and thought about how that relationship

Yeah,

between the height of the steel beam and the window.

Um, worked.

You would've picked that up earlier.

Yeah.

And it was just one of those things and they, they're in every

project, like, everything I've ever built is a detail that shits you.

Yep.

Architects can't get everything.

Right.

I think that's also a misconception that they're drawing everything needs to work.

No, like they, they, they.

They're totally okay to make mistakes like that's going to happen.

It's complicated.

Yeah.

It's not that easy.

So like in answer to your question, really long way around Hamish, like working with

those, those trades and builders on site gave me appreciation for the expertise

that exists at all levels of the ecosystem and the importance of deep collaboration.

'cause you've got the best outcomes when you listened to.

The electrician, the renderer, the plumber, the, the

carpenter, whoever it is.

And, and it, it taught me a way of asking questions.

And then, so when it came time to, you know, the objective of

fit versus hype is to build better quality, um, more sustainable

buildings, ultimately to leave.

Um, to, to, to make tomorrow a, a better place than it is today.

So fundamentally, if we wanted to build more sustainable buildings, we needed that

expertise really close to the business.

Yeah.

Um, and that was the idea behind setting up the sustainability consultancy

alongside the development company if we wanted to be building the best possible.

Um, you know, apartment buildings, we could, uh, we needed the expertise close.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, that's why we set up the sustainability consultancy and

that's really just morphed into a bigger business, which is

interested in, in having impacted at all scales of decision making.

So we've got a better business team that helps structure up

strategies and policies for business.

Um, that would be, you know, a listed developer right the way

through to a small electrician.

Builder.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, so, uh, a strategy and a framework, um, as to how to approach

sustainability, how to make decisions, really helping people understand why

they're doing what they wanna be doing.

Putting it into a framework to help them structure that thinking.

At one of our other team, cities and Regions, they work at the

intersection between planning policy and sustainability.

So that's at local government, state government level.

Whenever there's any piece of policy work done that involves

sustainability, which today is almost everything, which is great.

Um, which is really good.

Yep.

Um, that team has a seat at the table helping to design more effective policy.

Yes, because that's a big one for me.

Yeah.

Because policy is written by people who, who aren't necessarily responsible

for the outcome of the policy.

And, uh, just stop you for a

second.

What I, and what I'm loving about all of this is that all of the little

different areas of your business hit versus hype are also drawing in on

the knowledge of all the other people that work within hit versus hype.

Yeah.

So it's almost as if.

Hip versus hype is like this expansion of your experience since you were five

years old with your, you know, at Don Roo.

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's a pretty, a pretty incredible, uh, pretty much, yeah.

Um,

do you, do you think back, like in going back to where we started the conversation

when you said you sort of jumped into medicine to be part of the solution?

Yeah.

Now that is, is that just by chance?

It's now with Hit Vhi, you just wanna be part of the solution.

Yeah.

And that's, that's what's always driven us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, like, I'll give you an example, right?

Like our Better Buildings team, which is the other part of sustainability,

that's all that ESD and kind of more of the building stuff.

But like Marcus, right?

Yep.

So Marcus Pacifier certified.

Awesome guy, super knowledgeable, has taken the time to get himself a PhD,

which you know, in this day and age is

epic.

Like he's at that age too, not, not being like 70 retired, but the guy's

like, what is he, 32?

Not even like, yeah.

But

again, and still finds time for like massive like trips through

Southeast Asia on his mound bike.

Totally.

It's like, that's Marcus.

Right?

But I like Marcus.

So he's gotten himself that theoretical understanding, like for me.

I want to do what I can to give markets that practical understanding,

so I introduce him to guys like you.

And it's like we do stuff like SBA, we support SBA, so my buildings team

can meet a whole bunch of builders.

Yeah.

'cause those builders, that was one of my selfish motivations for this whole thing.

Like, I want my buildings team knowing a bunch of builders and trades who can help

their them become better at what they do.

Yeah.

And hopefully at the same time we can help you guys.

Yeah.

A hundred.

But like if, if my team's sitting in an office.

And not talking to the guys who are actually implementing.

Yeah.

Their advice is useless.

So why isn't that part of the architecture degree?

Because it, I think it's quite clear that it works.

Wow.

Like in anything, like you have experience on just being on site,

you're going to gain on site experience.

Yeah.

The whole issue I see with the architecture degree with what you're

saying is there's no on onsite experience.

You learn it all in the book, you go work for an architect, you learn the CAD stuff,

the backend stuff, which you have to do.

But why is there no push to be like you have to do.

200 hours on site.

Yeah.

With the builder.

It could be laboring, it could be working in their office, but it needs

to be onsite experience signed off.

I don't, I don't know, like it's changed a bit.

Um, probably like, I don't know.

There was, I went to Melbourne University, which is quite, you

know, big on history and, um, yeah, MIT is big on kind of theory.

Um, you know, Monash wind burn, so they're, they're a

little bit more practical.

Yep.

Um.

But I've got like the perfect first year.

I thought about this a little bit.

I've got the perfect first year, a architecture studio at high school.

I was in cadets, right?

They used to do scouts and heaps of camping and all that shit.

But the um, section of cadets that I was in was B Corp. And B Corp were

the guys that kind of went out in the bush for 10 days and no tents.

We just had hoochies,

geez.

I would die.

There's no cheese and wine,

but like do you get for Melbourne or come

I'm a princess.

I'm a total princess.

But like setting up Huie in the bush.

Right?

So basically just a tarp.

So you got a single line and a and a huie like that is the best way

to learn how to cite a building.

'cause you have to think.

And if you don't get it right and it rains, you get fucking

wet and all your shit gets wet.

Do you know, I just.

I can't help but be an awe of the simplicity of that.

Just that right there.

I, it, it is just that right there.

If every single architect, it would be epic.

You know, and just really understood how to protect yourself

from the elements really simply.

Like we would not have the shit that's being built out in all these

satellite suburbs right now.

So, so where do you set your, your base, um, where do you set your string line?

Um, where, where do you hang?

You, your, your edges.

'cause you can hang 'em in all sorts of different directions.

You can pick up a corner and hang it off a tree.

Like, and, and it all comes down to, oh, what's the weather for this night?

What's the prevailing wind direction?

Um, if it rains, where's water gonna flow?

I. What, what little trenches need to be dug in order to divert water

around my, this is fucking brilliant.

My base actually, this is brilliant.

It actually

makes so much, it's really just broken down into its most

simple form and I think, and

if you get it wrong, there's consequence and your wet should get wet.

And you're fuck, and then you're fucked for the next two days.

'cause Yeah, like once you wet, you wet.

So if you don't get it right, you wear the consequence.

I don't know, like it's a bit off.

You know,

you, I reckon I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make my kids do this.

Like I I back onto a state park and I could do this for my kids.

Yeah.

Right now

you can probably do it for me.

I'll do it for Maddie Maddy, you can come along with my kids.

You know, in fact, Darcy is gonna be teaching you.

He would out camp me, he would out camp you.

It's really cool too 'cause you can have, suppose I'm a hot chocolate,

my marshmallow as I'm happy where my house is just down there spot.

I'll, I'll bring Yeah,

you can have heaps of fun with it too.

'cause you can learn heaps of knots and, and all of that stuff.

And Yeah.

You like should be day one of architecture school.

Like we just, even we are gonna do it in a Yeah.

In a controlled environment.

Like set this up, go work it out.

I

reckon that way that would the coolest year one subject.

Uh, hip verse hype design

school coming out,

people picture, which

is, so why haven't you bought into an architecture side of things that you like?

'cause you are trying to be part of the solution and you seem to have, I

would say most, if not all the answers.

Why haven't you gone to general residential architecture?

Do you

think you can have

more impact doing what you're

doing now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you can't do everything.

Can't do everything.

That's one of the things in life.

You can't do everything.

I like, I've, I got two young boys now.

I got a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old and, and.

A really big focus for me through this period when they're young is

like I've actively stepped back from a few things that I was doing

to make sure that I give them time.

Yeah.

And so.

There, there, there's a limit.

And, and I've, I've just made a choice, like I want to be

present through this time.

Yeah.

Um, 'cause I'll only get it once and

10 good summers.

How, how, how did 10 good summers, how did you step back?

And that's some of

the issues.

That's something that I'm like grabbing our first in June.

Like how did you actually actively step back?

Because I trying to work that in my head right now.

I very simple.

It's kind of a similar question to ask myself within hip as hype, like, is this.

Particular thing that needs to be done, a good use of my time or could,

or is it a better use of someone else's time within the business?

That's a very simple question.

Is this the best use of my time?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, then you make a decision.

No, it's not.

Um, then who's, who's better placed to do it?

Okay.

Then that's a delegation thing.

So that's just understanding how to manage your time.

From, from a prioritization perspective, it's just saying no to

things that I would've said yes to.

Yeah.

Um, and feeling okay about that because I actually want to get

home before the boys go to bed.

Yep.

'cause you know, I've only seen them.

You know, oh, I've only seen him for an hour that day.

It's like, I'm not okay with that.

Like, I wanna, I wanna get home and see him.

Yeah.

Um, it's, you know, we're setting the business up in Sydney at the

moment, so I'm up in Sydney a bit, but it's like consolidating

a trip to Sydney into two days.

I'll fly up in the morning, I'll stay one night, and I will jam pack those two days.

Yep.

Um, and I'll get the late flight home the next day, so I'm there.

In the morning when they wake up.

Yep.

So it's like stuff like that, you just, you just think a little bit differently.

You learn from

your mistakes.

Like, oh, I could, I could've got that earlier if I did.

I need to stay that night.

Yeah.

And, and stuff like, you know.

Like my me time at the moment, like I play, I play bit of golf.

I grew up playing golf.

I love it.

Amy loves golf.

I golf what I play, I each of their own.

It's just, it's, I find it really technical and cathartic.

Right?

Like

is it actually cathartic though?

Really?

Yeah.

When, when you hit, for me, it is hit it three, three holes to the right.

For me it is like, it's just one of those things, but whatever, whatever's

your recipe, man, and, and I've done all sorts of things over the years.

I've ridden bikes of ski.

Kind of surfed and done everything at, at the moment it's coming back

to a bit of the roots 'cause it's manageable at the moment with the boys.

But I'll, I'll get up really early on a Friday morning.

I'll go play, I'll be back in the office by 12 o'clock.

I'll close out Friday.

I do it Fridays so that my weekends are like family time.

Ah, that's awesome.

Um, and I work, work, you know, you work later.

You know, once the boys are in bed, you get some work done so that you can

kind of free up some time for yourself.

And then, you know, on the weekend it's like, uh, I gotta

be as present as I can be.

Yep.

Um, easier said than done.

I was just about to ask you like, I feel like there's.

All three of us are probably cut from a very similar rug in that

our brains are always very active.

Yeah.

And I know I struggle being present with my kids, you know, and I find it.

I do.

And then probably a bit of advice to you, Matt, like 10 minutes a

day of undivided attention, like change the dynamic with your kids,

like you would not even understand.

Yeah.

Like I noticed I was drifting a bit from Darcy for a little

bit and I put my phone down.

And just asked him, how's your day?

You know, what's going with the Minecraft?

This little things that you know, you might not be interesting.

He finds yeah,

he finds interesting.

10 minutes, honestly.

10 minutes.

I'll sit down and play with Phoenix for 10 minutes.

My below and I, we, we might not build anything.

Yeah.

But it's that 10 minutes.

He's crawling all over me.

He's putting shit together, you know, like, but it's undivided

attention for 10 minutes.

It's so funny, like how, like our perception of what constitutes presence

and engagement versus like what?

They really love.

Mm-hmm.

I'll give, give you a good example.

Like two nights ago I had to, I just had to go down the office downstairs

and, and, and fix a shelf and, um.

I could have gone down and done that by myself.

And I was like, come on, boys.

We're going downstairs.

And, you know, gave, picked up the, the tool bag and gave, gave him the

drop saw and just go cut that

Greg gave the 2-year-old a little shifter and, and, you know, gave the

four, 4-year-old must a little job.

And, and we went downstairs and, you know, like I, I just did it.

Quickly.

Yep.

And they were down there with the tools and they pulled a drill out and they're

like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But like mate, they were o Yep.

And that was 10 minutes, like say.

And I honestly like that wasn't necessarily undivided attention either.

Yeah.

But they fucking loved it.

Yeah, she totally, totally true.

As a developer, the legislation's changing around these developer

rules, having to withhold money that's going to essentially make it.

So, so essentially these rules are being brought in to make hold

account developers accountable for the defects that happen in the works.

Is this gonna drive the price of living and housing up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause they've just gotta put it somewhere like they're not gonna pay for it.

Yeah.

It's a shock.

It's a shocker.

It's like, I know why it's, I know why.

And you probably ethically agree with it.

I

know why and all the rest of it, but like, just even the simple maths on it, right?

Like it's $2 million, isn't it?

Well, 3%.

Oh, geez, 3% bond on construction costs.

So you, you know, you, you, you're running a, um, you know, $50 million, um, project.

At the back end of the project, you're having to put aside one

and a half million dollars.

You know, the opportunity cost on that capital.

'cause capital like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You also got interest against that on a loan.

Well, if, if it's bank interest offset against your home loan, it's 6%.

If, if, you know, if, if it's capital that you could otherwise

deploy into a future project, it's significantly higher than that.

Yeah.

If, if it's mezzanine debt that you've got, um, you know, you

might be paying 15% on that.

The equity rate of return on that sort of capital is higher than that.

So like there's a material cost to compartmentalizing that capital.

Well, the problem we've got at the moment is the perception is that

like developers are killing it.

Fuck, there's lots of money involved, but it's all relative.

Yeah, there's a

high amount of

risk.

It's super high amount of risk, particularly at the moment, and I, I can't

think of a residential development project that's been completed in Victoria within

the last three or so years where a hundred percent of the apartments have been sold.

And in a development project like that, your profit sits in the last

two to three apartments that are sold.

So until you sell those two to three apartments, there is zero profit.

Wow.

So it's, it's just you buy the land, you pay consultants, you

all the sales and marketing costs, you fight, cancel all that stuff.

The time cost of capital through that entire process.

Then you engage building, you build.

Um, so you spend money for four years and then.

Pretty much in one day, you get a capital inflow.

Now, if you've got residual stock, there's no profit until

you sell your residual stock.

And at the moment in the market, what we have is a situation where developers

have got bank loans on residual stock in order to to extract some of that money.

Right

now, what this policy is saying is instead of that developer being

able to go and redirect that capital into creating a future project,

we're gonna see a considerable amount of it in a bond facility.

That would just reduce,

is that earning interest

or

no?

Would it offset the, nah, 'cause

it'd be kind of, you know, like what a term deposit facility at the moment.

Percent like two, three, 4%.

It's fuck all like, so like, yeah, I get the idea.

I get where it's coming from.

The key question is here is that are developers necessarily the

ones that are responsible for the lack of quality in the system?

Um, and it is.

Policing that end of it necessarily gonna result in improved outcomes.

Um,

because how do you hold the builder accountable during the whole stage?

Well, this is the thing, right?

But then also you've got complexities around how, how, how

do people who have genuine claims.

Access the capital.

'cause I, I can tell you this now, the only people that are gonna

win outta this process are the lawyers that are administering that.

The way in which that money's allocated, right?

Because you're gonna end up with shit fights.

It's gonna take a lot of time.

I, I see what it's trying to do.

I don't necessarily see that it's super effective.

Like for me, there's some bigger picture structural issues at play here, which

is the skill of labor on commercial sites is nowhere near good enough.

Yep.

There's a whole upskilling piece there and that's, that's again why

I wanted to get involved with you guys is like, guys like you, what's

the best way to solve this problem?

Is it trying to educate at scale or is it trying to scale

up people with great cultures?

And I think part, and personally, I believe part of the solution is

for guys like you and your networks to look at how you guys can scale

a bit and have an influence on.

You, you know, motivating the, the, the average tradie to just do a better job.

Yeah.

Um, 'cause that's a real problem on commercial flights.

There are guys that just, I made it, kills me, kills me around.

Well that's going through a cold little issue at the moment.

Like that's getting cleaned, dried

out, walk around our sights and like there are guys there

that just do not give a fuck.

They do not give a fuck.

I

reckon there's, there's another episode Yeah.

A whole nother episode that we could chat with here.

That that

one's just like, you know, part of your, your mission, right?

Yep.

But it does.

Thank you very, very much for going on, mate.

Cool.

Yeah, thanks

Liam.

Really appreciate it.