Libraries Are Magical: On Public Space, Democracy, and Free Access to Information

Tina Pippin: [00:00:00] Welcome to Nothing Never Happens, the Radical Pedagogy Podcast. Our public libraries or spaces of free access, inclusion and community for many patrons, libraries are more than just a building to sit in for the day. Librarians are researchers, community partners, and educators. In this podcast, we speak with one activist librarian, Oskar Gittemeier, about his journey into library work, his vision of the social justice focus of libraries, and the challenges in these politically polarized times.

Oskar is the Program Manager of Innovation and Engagement at the City of San Diego Public Library. Before turning to his [00:01:00] vocation of Library and Information Studies with a certificate in Leadership and Management, his background was in Sociology and Women's Studies. We learned about Oscar through his leadership work with the Georgia Library Association and his fan club of colleagues.

Oscar brings an intersectional sensitivity to his outreach work to bring libraries to the community. For example, through surveying people in detention centers and providing them with library cards upon release. Creating a fundraiser calendar in Fulton County, Georgia libraries. Libraries can be a drag for a scholarship fund.

And in general, rethinking the space and function of libraries to meet community needs. He takes us through the complex issues of providing access to all, along with other challenges and opportunities public libraries are facing. Oscar leaves [00:02:00] us with one main task, to join our local Friends of the Public Library as the best way to support libraries and librarians.

So get ready to listen to Oscar and find out the necessary work librarians do to create a more just world. Welcome Oscar Getemeyer to Nothing Never Happens.

Lucia Hulsether: Oscar, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Um, we're really excited to talk to you and to get started. I have an interlinked question. The abstract version of the question is how are libraries feminist, how is, how are libraries a feminist project and queer project?

And knowing what I know about your work and, um, imagining what you might want to talk about with respect to your own journey to the work that you do. [00:03:00] Um, I'm curious if you might be able to answer that question, not only in the abstract, but also through kind of your own life and experience coming into, um, work, work in libraries.

Oscar Gitttemeir: So, I mean, when you think about public space, right, and like who is permitted into public space, who's allowed to access public space, you know, queers and women have always been marginalized in that way in public space, right? There weren't public spaces for us, right? And so thinking about my own personal experiences, like being able to go to the public library, as a kid is like one of the most radical things for me because it was one of the few spaces where youth are allowed to be, right?

And so like, I grew up in the 80s. I could go to the library by myself, right? That was the time when you could ride your bike to the library and be in public space. So when you think about even youth as being not really, uh, able to access public space, right? So being like a queer [00:04:00] youth, uh, being in public space and having access to that is just a profoundly radical thing, right? You're welcomed into this space. Um, and then I think like, as I got older, uh, you know, I was a very young teenage parent. I'm queer, I'm trans, and I had my son at 16 years old. So I was still in high school and I actually, I had missed so much school that I had to go to an alternative high school.

I was told I could be expelled. Or I could voluntarily leave and go to an alternative high school and not have an expulsion on my record. And I was missing so much school because I had horrible morning sickness. Like it's, uh, it was just profoundly, uh, disrupted to my high school years. So I wound up at this actually really cool alternative school that was across the street from my local public library.

And it was so great because, you know, I'm working. I'm going to school. I'm trying to raise a child. I'm in high [00:05:00] school and my public library across the street had audio books and I was struggling so hard to like finish high school that those audio books like helped me do a lot of the reading that I did.

I literally didn't have time to do right. And so that little tiny, it was, it's like one 10 shell, but they would order the audio books for me. And when my English teacher found out about this, she was like. Oh, can you bring those into class? And so then my whole class is now listening to like Canterbury Tales or Dracula or whatever that required reading is, right?

That you have to do in high school that, I mean, if I'm 100 percent honest, none of us were terribly riveted by. But there was something about like sitting in the classroom with all of these like reject kids. We were all rejected from our high schools. We all wound up in this misfit high school and we're like huddled around this tape [00:06:00] recorder, like listening to like Frankenstein and it's just, you know, it's like it hits you. I'm Frankenstein. And it was just so profound. Sorry. So yeah, that's what libraries do.

Tina Pippin: Yeah, the issue of access, so important. Um, you had access to that and now you're giving access to others. So could you talk about that journey into becoming a librarian? See yourself as a librarian.

Oscar Gitttemeir: So my journey into librarianship, it's funny. I was in school at the time. And so I make my way to college and I just need something part time while I'm in school.

And so I see like a, just a little paper sign up in my local public library. That's like hiring part time. And so I'm in school. I'm getting my graduate degree [00:07:00] in women's studies and I'm studying, like I'm learning all about like public space and like. feminism and like queer theory and I wind up working part time at my local public library and I realize, oh my god, this is like literally all of the things I'm learning about in school in this one magical space, right, where it's like you've got access to information, you've got competing ideas, you've got literally the foundation of democracy, I believe, right?

This, this idea that you have like access to information, competing ideas and public space, right? So those things are so rare and I'm sitting in this space and I'm just like a library assistant, right? Just working part time, just trying to finish my degree, but I happen to have this manager. who was also like a queer mentor for me, and he really encouraged me to go to library school, and so he wrote me a [00:08:00] letter of recommendation, helped me get a scholarship through the Georgia Library Association, and I was off, like I was in for public libraries when I realized so much of what I believed, like politically, uh, just fit in with public libraries and free access to information.

Tina Pippin: Yes. Um, so your, your interest in social justice issues and, um, uh, culturally responsive, uh, teaching and opportunities for kids to learn that and, and adults. Um, how have you practiced that concretely? Can you give us some examples like, um, I know you've done some been part of and and created some very creative programs like, um, libraries can be a drag.

Oscar Gitttemeir: I think

Tina Pippin: it's fabulous name for an event. Um. Given [00:09:00] how people think, uh, traditionally about librarians and libraries, uh, so how are you doing that? Both you were in Fulton County, Georgia and in the Atlanta, metro Atlanta area, and now you're way across the country in California and San Diego. So could you talk about what you've done or doing and the differences?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Sure. And I also should mention, I had a brief stint in Wyoming, which we can talk about or not, but, uh, that was, Quite the revelation to be in that space as well. Very different. Um, but yeah, so I think some of the projects like that I'm most proud of when I think about concrete programs is like serving, uh, folks in detention, uh, and folks coming out of detention.

I think that was some of the more impactful work because I think the level of. Censorship that happens with people in detention is pretty intense. And so they're really restricted in the information they can access. And so it was really amazing to be able [00:10:00] to work with detention centers and build relationships over time that really allowed us to expand into not just bringing books into institutions, but bringing in art programs, right?

So we were able to bring in like, uh, 3d pens and steam programming and, um, Really just try to connect with. Uh, folks in detention and folks coming out of detention to make sure that one of the first resources they had as they were exiting detention was a public library card and letting them know that as you're coming out of this space, uh, we're going to welcome you into the public library.

And so it was really great to show them all the resources that we had and how they could connect with their kids. They could check out museum passes and, um, all the different cultural things they could do. with their children in their public library. Um, so I really loved doing that. Um, libraries are such a drag was a project, and that was just, uh, a way for me to give back to the Georgia Library Association.

[00:11:00] So I think libraries often have this like reputation of being super starchy spaces, right? Uh, you know, you picture the person with reading glasses and a tight bun, right? And like, you know, maybe a cardigan, very uptight. And I just wanted to like, you know, play with that because that's, those aren't the people that I know, those aren't the people I work with.

And, uh, Libraries of Such a Drag was a calendar fundraiser to raise money for the, I wanted to give money to the scholarship that had helped me go to library school. And so I had a bunch of my friends pose with their favorite books, and they did what I would call like book drag. And so like they would, like I had one of my favorite professors.

Dressed up as Sylvia Plath and had like Their head in an oven. Um, you know, we had like Halloween ones. Uh, we had, uh, a librarian I know that's in a rock band. Uh, so it was just, it was just this idea that there's all different types of folks. [00:12:00] Um, that are using and accessing and part of public libraries, right?

That we, you know, people think we're boring and dusty and I just, I wanted to shatter that. I wanted to say, no, we're, we're fun, we're cutting edge, uh, and that's what I tried to do with that project.

Lucia Hulsether: That's outstanding. Um, I feel like one of the questions we need to ask at the end of this project is if you were going to do a libraries are such a drag.

Costume performance. Um, this week. What character would you be? But, I'm gonna just like, drop that. And it's gonna be our Easter egg for listeners. To get to the end of the podcast. Not that they're gonna have any trouble doing this. The other thing I'm thinking about, um, Do you remember that show, All That?

On Nickelodeon? Very 1990s. It was like SNL for kids. There was a, um, There was a recurring kind of bit piece that in that [00:13:00] featured an, um, one of the performers whose name was, was Laurie Beth Denberg. And the scene would be a high school library and kids studying and maybe somebody would whisper or they would be like passing around candy or something.

The librarian would come in super uptight, yelling, This And then it would just like kind of escalate in this really campy way where she would come in with a marching band and yell, this is a library everyone be quiet, you need to respect the quiet of the library to come in with a megaphone some days are like bang on the tables and so it was this kind of, um, It was both a stereotypical picture of what a library is, but also a really campy, draggy, fun performance of like bad behavior in the library by the librarian.

So I hadn't thought of this, I hadn't thought of it that [00:14:00] way until you were just talking. It leads me to my next question, which may be really basic, but what do libraries do? What happens in a library? Can you just tell us?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah, so, I mean, all kinds of things. I think that the thing that most people think of, right, the first thing that comes to mind is like story time, right?

So reading to children, that's like the, the gold standard image of your public library, right? Uh, and that's still happening, right? It's still happening. We're still doing story times. They're still super fun and engaging. Um, but I think there's a lot that's happening that has to do with, um, you know, workforce, helping people upskill.

You've got makerspaces in libraries that are teaching all different types of like digital technology, tech skills, uh, tech literacy. Um, so you've got a lot of the more sort of cutting edge stuff. Like, you know, do you know how to use AutoCAD? Do you know how to use a CNC machine, a 3D [00:15:00] printer? So there's a lot of that tech literacy that's going on.

So whatever the sort of latest and greatest is, uh, libraries are doing that. They're trying to fill that skill, uh, that skill gap. Um, but I think there's also just. the super basic, uh, connecting with your community, right? So being able to come and see your neighbors, being able to come and see people that are maybe not your neighbors, right?

Someone else in the community that you don't see on a regular basis. And I think that that's what's most beautiful about the public library is you're, you're having these, you know, book discussions or author talks, or you're in the maker space together with people that don't live on your street, that aren't part of your walking club, that aren't part of your garden club.

That so you're able to sort of share space and be in community with people that could be profoundly different from you, different ages, different races, different income levels. [00:16:00] And I think that's one of the most magical things about library is the serendipity that can happen in a library. And I just don't know many spaces that exist like that in our world.

We have so many privatized spaces. Um, I mean, we see this with. Uh, like what happened in Starbucks where two people were going to meet and, uh, a black man was, uh, arrested and, and escorted out of a Starbucks. And so, you know, we think of coffee shops as public spaces, but they're not. Those are private, for profit spaces.

And so, the public library, you don't have to buy something to be there. You don't have to consume. It's one of the few spaces where you can exist not as a consumer. You don't have to justify your existence in that space, right? There's, like I said, like a serendipity that can happen in those kind of public spaces.

Um, so that's what, that's what I think is most magical about libraries, what's happening in libraries. [00:17:00]

Tina Pippin: Yeah, that's just really the, the wonderful part of Of libraries, bringing people together and and and doing new things, um, introducing people to new ideas and competing ideas. And so I'm going to ask, I don't know how far we want to go with this.

Um, I've been reading quite a bit about library spaces. Um. As spaces of inclusion and a lot of urban libraries is having, you know, police with guns and, you know, sort of, uh, surveillance techniques on the spaces because they're overrun with, um, on house people, especially during the day, like the shelter bus will drop people off and there are no, you know, libraries aren't equipped.

There are no spaces for sleep. You know, the bathrooms aren't equipped for, you know, different kinds of health and hygiene issues. Um, you know, food's not allowed in the library, etc. Uh, and so, um, uh, and on the other hand, I [00:18:00] read an article about the bootstrapping of, that librarians are called to do, like, let's get you a job, let's get you, You know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and there's a resistance to that.

Uh, so, um, you know, I know this is a lot, but that, you know, what is the role of the librarian, um, in terms of being a professional and doing the things that, you know, you've been trained to do and get joy out of, but also having to be this kind of, um, monitor of, you know, folks who may or may not be using the technology Um, you know, pick themselves up either bootstraps or watching porn or they're sleeping or, you know, I've read lots of books on this.

So, um, how, how are librarians pushing back on that? So that the professionalization of the librarianship, as it's called to be, you know, tech [00:19:00] experts and train people in technology. Get ahead. You know, that makes sense.

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah, I think that there's always been sort of like a shifting in the job description, right?

Like, I mean, I feel like I heard similar. Uh, you know, it's funny. One of my one of my colleagues I just saw online. She's retiring after 39 years in the library. And she was one of the folks that trained me when I first started as that library assistant and, uh, you know, similar conversations happened around computers, right?

When computers entered the library and, you know, so many of the colleagues she worked with that retired before her, you know, they never learned to use email, you know? And so I feel like this conversation is not a new conversation. Uh, it's been happening. Um, and I don't think it will stop happening. So I think there will always be shifts and skill sets, right?

Um, but I hear you on the, the overwhelmingness [00:20:00] of the expectations for library staff, right? That it is not just, Uh, you know, connecting people to information, right? Like, you were just diagnosed with cancer and you want to access a medical journal, right? It's more than just that, right? It's so much more than that.

And you're right, you know, some libraries are providing food and some aren't. Some libraries will allow sleeping and some won't. You know, especially when you look at, uh, academic libraries, you know? You'll, you'll find sleeping pods in academic libraries. So it depends on the library we're in, it depends on the space we're in, it depends on, you know, who's accessing that space, are they allowed to sleep, are they allowed to eat?

Um, so I think that there's, there's a way to do that, right? There's a way to create space where people do feel welcome and I think that, you know, there are interesting ways to do it. One of the, one of my favorite library signs I ever saw said, [00:21:00] The first floor is food and drink friendly. The other floors are just friendly.

And I thought that was a really great way of saying please come enjoy your meals on our first floor and not our other floors. But we're still friendly on those floors, right? So it's like there's a way to create guidelines, right? But still be welcoming. And, and I think that it is a fine line and it is hard when, you know, there are overdoses happening in libraries.

There are very Yeah, it's a challenge. Public space is challenging, right? But I don't want to pretend like these same things aren't happening in our homes. You know, they're happening everywhere. Those same issues that we're seeing in public libraries, they're happening everywhere, right? They're just visible because it's public space.

Right. And I think sometimes it's hard for us to [00:22:00] have that mirror held up. Right. Because that's what public space is. It's a mirror for us to see each other. Right. And sometimes we don't like what we see. So, um, yeah.

Lucia Hulsether: Thanks for that, Oscar, that what you're saying makes me think like, because libraries are public space.

And we see all that's going on in every other space or gerrymandered away, mostly from site into prisons or in the privatized home doors or something that actually the small d project of democracy that you're talking about is how do we live together, given all of these challenges and that the question that Tina just asked about here all the things that are challenging are like are not just problems for librarians, even though this is a really concentrated, um, intense position, um, both [00:23:00] managing and participating in administering what is one of the only public spaces, um, left.

I thought it was like, wow, it sounds like librarians are social work.

Um, So I'm curious. Oh, the other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, like being at these Ivy League schools where I have navigated sleeping pods in libraries, but also metal detectors control, it's in and who gets out so you can get behind the medical medical medical, you can get through the metal detector and have your bag searched after you swipe your ID.

And then you have this wonderland of all these books, and snap pods, and a fish tank, and puzzles, and um, There's a real subculture of I slept all night in the library, and that means that I'm a really good student who is working really, really hard. And so there's this bootstrapping this [00:24:00] connected to loitering in libraries for the ruling class or the future ruling class.

And so pointing out that double standard is very useful. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Um, so I don't know if you want to respond to that.

Oscar Gitttemeir: That was just kind of a, a, a narrative, but I mean, I hate to frame it as a look at these people that have, cause I think everyone should have access to that type of luxury.

Right. One of my experiences, I remember when I was in college, I was going to Georgia state university in downtown Atlanta, which is one of the most heavily policed spaces, triangles in the nation. You have more different types of enforcement surveilling that particular location than most other spaces in our country.

And so I would walk between buildings and you would cross through Woodruff Park. [00:25:00] And, uh, I had like a little break in between classes and I took my book bag and I put it under my head and I'm just laying in the park and I'm looking up at the sky and I'm taking a break. And one of those law enforcement officials came up and said, you cannot recline in the park.

And I was like, what? And I was like, I'm looking around. I'm like What do you mean I can't recline in the park? They were like, you cannot recline down on the grass in the park. And I was like, this is a public park, right? Like, and they were like, oh, you can have a picnic. You can sit on a blanket. You can do all that.

You cannot recline. You cannot rest your head on the ground in this public space. And that was so, and it was because. of Unhoused Folks in that space and I thought, wow, uh, we just had, uh, an author visit with Heather McGee. Uh, are y'all familiar with the book, The [00:26:00] Sum of Us? And just the ways in which we shoot ourselves in our own foot by denying resources for everyone to exclude some people.

And we're, we're harming. Ourselves, you know, and it's just so disturbing to me and I'll never forget I've never felt so unwelcome in a space before and I thought, wow, you know, and that was that was that was five minutes of my day that wasn't 24 hours of my day.

Tina Pippin: Yeah, there's, there's some people who want to claim that libraries are neutral spaces.

But if you provide a welcoming, inclusive space, you're not being neutral, especially these times. Absolutely. So, how is the library in San Diego, Public Library, doing? Um, the welcoming, what kinds of things you have in place to up front to welcome people.

Oscar Gitttemeir: I mean I feel [00:27:00] like this is true of most public libraries right because it's not like, what is it Howard's then you can't be neutral and moving train, right.

So just like you said, from the onset saying that this is a space for everyone has already thrown neutrality out the window, right? So we're, we're, we're not neutral, right? We're saying everyone is welcome in these spaces, including, uh, you know, if we're talking about critical race theory, or we're talking about, uh, queer books, or we're talking about any kind of marginalized, uh, group, we're.

making that information accessible, right? So we're not just welcoming you in, we're not just saying this space, uh, is, is for everyone, but we're providing content that speaks to everyone. You know, one of the most, uh, profound things in my life when I felt so alone as a queer person, um, When I was first coming out, I was in a [00:28:00] very rural area and my girlfriend at the time was going to school and she brought home queer books, right?

Like Stone Butch Blues, Zombie, Audre Lorde, you know, just really good, profoundly Just completely changed my outlook on the world and I was able to go to my public library and check those books out Right, that was so huge for me to see a world. I didn't know existed I didn't know any other queer people, right?

So to be able to go to a shelf and find a book Uh, with queer and trans and feminist voices, uh, just changed my whole outlook. I moved to the city, I found other queer people, I found feminist groups, and it just changed the whole trajectory of my life when I realized I wasn't alone. [00:29:00] I think that's what we're doing, right?

We're letting people find stories about themselves, right? See themselves reflected.

Lucia Hulsether: One of the most astounding Not in a good way. Moments in my teaching over the last couple of years was when I, um, had come up with an assignment where students were, um, were supposed to find a footnote in a book that we had, or an article that we had read in class and find the source that was cited and then go to the library and track down it.

What was being cited, use the databases to find the primary source if it was in a historical newspaper, find the source on the shelf, and it's a great assignment, which I recommend to anybody as a way of learning about how, how scholarship is a conversation. [00:30:00] So that's, that wasn't a bad part. The, the part that kind of raised my hair on end was when several students who were juniors and seniors said they had never been in the library.

Before they might have gone through it in the first floor, but they didn't. They had never been in the stacks and that it makes sense. A lot of them were in high school at during, um, the, so the beginning of the Covid Pandemic, um, the internet is at people's fingertips. Um, which is, this is not a decension story that I'm telling about the internet, but it's a, it's a, it's a cha it's an altered sort of relationship to information and, and books and reading and things that we typically associate with, with libraries.

So I'm curious if you have suggestions for librarians, for teachers, uh, professors, whatever level of ways to kind of [00:31:00] build in, learn about your library, learn how to use the tools of a library into classrooms, into activities, and to how to program that in a way that helps, um, helps people kind of. have access to the possibility of recognition and care that you first experienced in those books that your girlfriend brought home?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Um, so when I, I'm trying to think, uh, full disclosure though, I didn't work with teens for most of my career, but when I think about teens in particular, There's a, an internship program that I work with now, and it's for 16 to 30 year olds, and it's to get them work experience, right? And so they're trained on media production, so they can learn like, uh, filmmaking, photography, uh, some digital [00:32:00] storytelling skills.

And so part of that internship is they then onboard into public libraries, and they help the public library with that storytelling, right? So like, What we're actually having youth speak to other youth, right? They're creating the Instagram reels. They're in the content, they're telling the library story.

So I think by sort of handing the car keys over, right. We're, we're saying, you know, speak to each other on these resources, right? You choose the content, like if it's more participatory, right. If they're able to actually. Promote what they think is is most useful to their peers. I think that's been really helpful.

Tina Pippin: Well, um, I want to go from that into more of your, um, public work, um, public outreach work with, uh, are you working with health issues now? Health sciences issues?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah, so I, [00:33:00] I work on a health advisory, and so our primary focus initially was working with COVID and addressing COVID misinformation, and we're sort of shifting now this year into sustainability and climate resilience and really just looking at misinformation around um, Climate and looking at the ways in which climate is impacting public health.

And so we're using grant dollars to fund, uh, author talks related to climate resilience. So we're inviting folks out. One of the first authors we're going to try to work with is Winona LaDuke and trying to get her out to come and do some, um, author talks and then, um, just really. Shifting our grant dollars into there's an idea it's called book to action.

And so you read a book, and then the community then decides what is the community action project based on the content in that book that we'd like to [00:34:00] see. In our community. Right? And so we've already been hearing from folks in the community as we've done like, um, listening sessions with different community partners that do, uh, sustainable work in, uh, Southern California.

And they're really interested in doing things like native plant installations, butterfly gardens, water conservation. And so we're already looking at book to action projects where it's like people aren't just reading the content, but we're putting. You know, grant dollars behind people doing something in their community to address, you know, climate change and how it's impacting their health.

So, and really, you know, again, just shifting that away from we're doing this for you to we're doing this with you and these dollars are for the community. Right.

Lucia Hulsether: So i. I'm glad that we've talked so much about all the wonderful things that libraries are, um, and can [00:35:00] be all of the radical projects of care and small like small d democracy. make me think, yeah, the right has something to be worried about. Um, no wonder they want to shut down libraries. Tina has already asked a question and you've already responded that like saying, oh no, no, no libraries are neutral spaces.

Like it's not a threat. Like that's, um, that's maybe not the right answer. I'm curious about how you are seeing and experiencing the current, but not the first. Um, Very sustained, organized attack on, um, public libraries and, and all that they, all that they, they are and have been. It

Oscar Gitttemeir: is probably [00:36:00] one of the most scarring experiences of my life happened, uh, in this moment.

So just to give like some context, I accepted a position in Wyoming and I had this very romantic view of what I thought would happen there. I was like, I'll hike every weekend. It's a small community. It'll be easy job. You know, I'll just, I'll. Be near the national parks and I'll just, uh, I'll retire here and just live happily ever after.

In this beautiful, beautiful, gorgeous hiking environment. And then a lesbian couple had been harassed, right? And it had made, like, NPR. Coverage. And so I heard the story on the radio and I was like, Oh my goodness, this is just, this is just a few hours from us. This is right up the road. Like this is not okay.

Like people came on their property and threatened them. I was like, what is happening? [00:37:00] And I thought we gotta do something. We gotta say like, we, we won't. How do we have that happen in our community, right? So how do we like, how do we do something here? And so I reached out to the local, um, county official and was like, Hey, let's do a non discrimination policy.

Let's say in our community, we won't tolerate that, right? We're going to do a non discrimination policy to cover everything, not just the public library, right? I'm talking about housing. I'm talking about businesses. And we're saying, Okay. That, that attitude is not welcome in our community and 10 days later, I was told I was not a good fit for that community.

So it was the height of the pandemic, you know, pandemic hits in March. I accept the job in July. I go out, I'm there for four months for four months. I'm in Wyoming and I make this suggestion and 10 days later without notice, [00:38:00] I am told. That I am no longer welcome to serve in their library. And it was so scarring for me because, you know, I'm coming off of GLA where I'm doing, like, libraries are such a drag calendars and we're doing drag queen story time and, you know, we're just doing what I would consider really progressive, innovative things in Georgia, right?

And I just, it just caught me off guard. I was completely, I just thought, Surely a non discrimination policy is, is warranted here.

It was not. And so, you know, that really was, was challenging for me. I was out of work for six months in the height of the pandemic. I had just moved across the country, [00:39:00] sold my house in Georgia, uprooted my entire life. And I gotta tell you, I mean that's, we're going on three years now, and that's still, I can still feel the scars from that, of how painful that rejection was, and shocking.

I shouldn't have been shocked, but I was.

Lucia Hulsether: They hired you, presumably. Yeah. Do you, this is, this is a really basic question, which is not a high minded about pedagogy. Like, did they not know what you were doing in GLA, which for those who don't know Georgia Library Association?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah, I, I sent them my portfolio.

I don't know. I don't know. It was, yeah. Yeah, so I think that the, the battle is real and a lot of us are walking away with scars from that battle. So, uh, a friend of mine recently had an experience in South Georgia where they had a mural [00:40:00] up in the library that just said libraries are for everyone. And if she didn't take down the mural, they were, uh, or I don't know if it was an ultimatum, but she was told she had to take the mural down and she didn't want to.

And so they were going to completely defund the library. And so she resigned so that the library could stay funded and all of her staff could keep their jobs. And it was just a very simple libraries are for everyone, you know, the image that I'm sure many of you have seen, you know, it's got someone holding a rainbow heart, someone in a wheelchair, someone in a hijab, you know, just different, just different folks in the community libraries are for everyone, you know, I just, uh, yeah, there are people that are walking away with very deep scars after this moment, and are still experiencing it, and are still You're welcome.[00:41:00]

Yeah. Um, I wish I had a, a more uplifting message. Uh, the one thing I will say is that we find each other, right? That there, that there are so many of us across the country, like the teacher in Cobb, my friend in South Georgia, uh, my experience in Wyoming. You know, we found each other. There's solidarity in that.

Um, but yeah, we need others with us.

Lucia Hulsether: What are some movements or campaigns? that you've seen, whether developing from within organizations like the GLA or from outside the professional librarian associations, to defend, um, this really valuable, um, space and to push back against, um, those attacks. [00:42:00]

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah. Um, I mean, some of the, some of the organizations I would recommend are like Library Freedom Project.

They're not specifically, I mean, they're most, mostly privacy related, but they do have like a very feminist politic, a very queer politic, a very progressive politic. Um, and I think they're doing really amazing work around like reproductive justice and access to information. You know, you see like the, the things that are happening in the Midwest around like librarians, not being able to share information about reproductive health.

So, so they're doing really cool work around that. Um, every library, you know, they're out there doing. You know, supporting folks throughout the country, um, the Progressive Librarians Guild, um, you know, they're doing work, uh, [00:43:00] those would be some folks that I would recommend folks take a look at and, and try to connect with.

Tina Pippin: Yeah. I'm realizing that we're speaking to you on the very last day of banned book week. I know a lot of people are pushing back like Karis books and like our own, my own college library at Agnes Scott with events and free book giveaways and readings and all of that, but the band book, um, movement from the, from the right is, is particularly scary given the history of the 20th century.

Uh, so how is your, how has your library been addressing that, uh, that issue?

Oscar Gitttemeir: So, I mean, Banned Books Week is not new. Libraries have been celebrating this for years, and I can remember in Atlanta, I worked in one of the most progressive neighborhoods in Atlanta. I worked in East Atlanta and I remember [00:44:00] I put up a banned books display with like the, you know, the caution tape and, and all of that.

And I remember so many folks coming in and being like, why are we banning books? And I was like, no, no, no, we're, we're not banning the books. Um, but it was just so interesting to see the difference in responses, right. That, you know, coming from this more progressive neighborhood, people were very concerned that we were roping off books.

Um, But then you see, you know, what's happening with like the palace project, right? And you see how, you know, people all over the nation are trying to make books accessible to people, um, where books are being banned, right? And so, I think you're gonna start seeing more projects like this. I know, like, in California, you've got libraries all over.

Uh, San Diego, L. A., you know, libraries, Uh, Boston, um, Brooklyn, they're making these banned books [00:45:00] accessible to people throughout the nation, right? And so, something I think is going to shift profoundly in the future when we think about public space, like the physical public space of libraries. I think that same shift is going to happen, like, um, digitally, right?

That we're going to see more of these sort of nationwide access to information in a way that You know, our vendors, library vendors, just have not kept up with, right? That a lot of the old policies and contracts I see shifting in the future, right? Because we're going to need to, uh, just make that more accessible to people throughout the nation.

Not just books, but audiobooks, articles, um, so I think a lot of that is going to shift in the future.

Tina Pippin: Well, I want to ask, um, I'll jump in here and ask, uh, How, how can, uh, we, [00:46:00] Lucia and me, and our listeners, um, best support libraries, public libraries, and our own institutional libraries, and, um, librarians?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Uh, I mean, one of the things you can do if we're talking about public libraries is join your friends of the library.

Um, that is a huge powerhouse of people that can go to city councils to county commission meetings that can write like they are literally the, you know, boots on the ground at those meetings advocating. At PTA meetings, at any of those community meetings, your Friends of the Library can really be a huge advocate to speak for you in a way that most people that are in public libraries, you know, we can't, as government employees, can't often go and speak for ourselves, but our Friends of the Library can.

So I would encourage you to join your local Friends of the Library, uh, [00:47:00] and be part of those campaigns.

Lucia Hulsether: Also seen recently just What kind of PSAs encouraging people if they don't have a library card to get a library card where where they are and and to use the library card but even if you're like oh maybe I won't use this showing that there is a public interest. Seems like probably a good idea now that's I'm saying this as a not as informed person.

Do you, can you tell us like Is that a good idea? Why is that a good idea?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Yeah, I think it can definitely show, you know, just not just like you're saying checking out physical material, but having access to that card is showing use, right? That you're coming into the space that you're using. If not the physical material, you may be using online material.

You may be coming into the space. You may be hosting community meetings using that library card. There are tons of ways that people are utilizing the library without checking [00:48:00] out physical material. So having that statistic of an actual library card number, uh, is super helpful. Yes.

Tina Pippin: Okay. What, what do you see happening next in, in librarianship, uh, and libraries?

What is, what is sort of the vision for things that are happening? And where's, where are the shifts headed? Are you, you hope they're headed?

Oscar Gitttemeir: I mean, I know this is probably controversial, so I'm going to, I'm going to own that up front, but I really see public libraries being 24 hour a day access, right?

They're doing this in other parts of the world. And I. And I know that there's anxiety when we think about, um, workers rights, you know, that we could see the automation of our jobs, but I don't see it that way. Right. I don't think access means eliminating positions. We can have 24 hour access to our [00:49:00] spaces and still have.

Staff right that are helping people connect to resources hosting story times running maker spaces like all of that can still happen. And you can have a meeting room that's open until 10 o'clock at night, right, so that the community can use it. So I think the future that I see for public libraries is more access more open hours and more outreach right more library work happening outside of physical library walls.

You know, you can see that in teams all over the nation, like if you look at some of the larger library systems in the country, you look at Seattle, you look at Houston, you look at all these big, huge library systems, they have outreach teams that are larger than most branch staff. Right? And it's because they know that they're going to connect with those new users.

They're going to get that library card and that new user's hand and that teen's hand that's not going to come walk the sacks that we talked about. They're [00:50:00] going to be able to do that by doing outreach, by popping up at the skate park, by going to the detention centers, by going to the spaces, um, where there might not be a library and walking distance, right?

Like, So I, I think you're going to see way more community engagement outside of library walls, but you're also going to see expanded hours, uh, for access to those library walls.

Lucia Hulsether: That's wonderful. Um, Oscar, before we get to our last question, noticing the time and feeling like I could talk to you all day, is there anything else that we haven't asked before we ask for your recommendations, um, that you think is important to share?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Um, just that I, I like the, the idea that we can be in public space with each other and disagree with each other. [00:51:00] And there's something beautiful about creating space for disagreement and not being community, right? That we can still build community around disagreement and that, um, yeah, we don't have to agree to be in community with each other.

And so go to your public library, go be in community with people you disagree with.

Tina Pippin: Oscar, thank you so much for being with us. I'm going to ask the last question. Question, which is what are you, uh, reading? What do you suggest that we need to be reading as a librarian, as a professional in this, um, uh, consuming, watching?

Oscar Gitttemeir: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I will say I have not finished it yet, but I am in the middle of the body keeps the score, which is just about the ways in which trauma affects our physical bodies, right? Like how it impacts our health. [00:52:00] And it is really Interesting. That, and I am guilty. I'm mostly a nonfiction reader.

Um, and of course, The Sum of Us by Heather McGee, highly recommend that as well. And, uh, other things I'm consuming, uh, other than books, uh, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once is probably one of my favorite films of all time. Um, Yeah. So I, I would highly recommend that film and my favorite podcast lately has been hidden brain all about social science.

So I just listened to a podcast that just dropped, I think yesterday on perfectionism and how to be good enough. So yeah, those would be my recommendations.

Tina Pippin: Great. Yeah. I think we all need that. Perfectionism. Um, okay, Lucia, what are you watching? I know the WNBA is, it's a hot time for the WNBA. So tell [00:53:00] us, bring us up to speed with that and other things.

Lucia Hulsether: I imagine by the time this, uh, this podcast gets released, the finals will be over, but, uh, at the time of recording, they start tomorrow, and it's the Las Vegas Aces versus the New York Liberty. Alyssa Thomas should have won. Most valuable player may it be said here or Asia Wilson, but you know, sometimes racism prevails in in the voting.

Um, and that's what happened this year. Okay. So I'm watching the WNBA listening to a lot of WNBA podcasts. I am reading a whole lot about the history of civic organizations for, uh, women right now. So like, sororities, not really a civic organization, but kind of. Um, women's clubs, uh, different kinds of fraternal organizations.

Um, so I'm, I'm kind of in, I'm kind of in the [00:54:00] weeds. I'm forgetting about all of that right now, but one of the podcasts that has been a delight and also kind of harrowing is, was recommended to me by my housemate. The podcast is called Snapped and it's A kind of deep dive into sorority culture in the United States and like the history of sororities, and they touch on kind of Okay, what does it mean?

What is it how they evolved over time? Um, what are the little like subcultures about how people's femininity has been Policed and constructed and enforced. How gay are sororities? How are they afraid of being seen as, like, spaces of queer relationships? Um, hazing, etc. That's helping me think about a project that I'm currently trying to start.

So, yeah, I, I feel a little bit, I feel a little bit buried in, in academic books right now. But WNBA is a nice escape. [00:55:00] Tina?

Tina Pippin: Okay, uh, well, two things just ended that I'm feeling a bit lost. Reservation dogs and Um, only murders in the building, very different, different kinds of, of shows. So, uh, I binge the, uh, Wes Anderson, Roald, Roald Dahl short films, which are, uh, very Wes Anderson, uh, amazing actors doing the Wes Anderson film thing.

But I'm also, because I do apocalyptic stuff, um, just started reading and I want to recommend it. How beautiful we were by Mbola Mbawi. Um, and that's all I can say because I just started it, but I, it's hard to put down, but I have to put it down because I've been reading in for my, um, research, uh, apocalyptic artificial intelligence and how it's, uh, [00:56:00] encoded with, uh, intentionally or not with racial biases.

So, uh, fun times on the apocalypse front. But, uh, Oscar Gittemeier, we are thrilled. You were recommended to us by librarian friends that we revere. And so, um, and it's, it's so great. A shout out to Karis Books that we have that connection here, uh, in Atlanta, Georgia. So thank you for being with us on Nothing Never Happens.

Oscar Gitttemeir: Thank you.

Tina Pippin: Thank you for listening to Nothing Never Happens, the Radical Pedagogy Podcast, [00:57:00] and our interview with Librarian Oscar Gittemeier. In our podcast, Lucia asked Oscar what Halloween costume he was going to have this year, and to find the answer of past Halloween costumes, because he was unable to do it this year, some very clever costumes, check out our website, Nothing Never Happens.

Our audio editor is Aaliyah Harris. And Aaliyah also did our outro music. It's called Sunny Rain. Our intro music and theme song is performed by Lance Eric Haugen, along with Aviva, I want to give a special shout out to librarians at Agnes Scott College, Casey Long, and Christina Tatum for recommending Oscar Gittermeyer to us for our podcast.

They knew each other from [00:58:00] the Georgia Library Association. podcast as a mostly self funded operation, We've decided to open up opportunities for our listeners to support our work. Your donations will help cover the cost of maintaining our website and streaming services, as well as pay for our amazing editors and student interns.

Thank you in advance for your encouragement and support as we've taken this journey together. So look for us on Patreon. com. Thank you for listening.[00:59:00]