G'Day everyone, it's Coach Michelle J Raymond, your trusted guide for building

your brand and your business on LinkedIn.

And listeners, I'm calling this season of the podcast Michelle and friends because

it gets to this time of the year and.

I haven't spoken to a lot of them in a while, and this current guest that

I've got on this week, the last time we spoke was a quick Zoom catch up.

Before that we met at Social Media Marketing World earlier in the year.

One of my favourite catch ups.

Michaela Alexis, welcome to the show.

I'm so excited.

I have a feeling it's gonna be 50% just giggling.

I think it started that way and I'm not sure it's gonna change the whole way

through I don't think it's gonna change.

We have some serious stuff to talk about, but that doesn't mean we have

to be serious because here's the thing, Michaela, like you and I have

been doing LinkedIn for a long time.

We're gonna talk about your journey in a moment.

Mm-hmm.

But You see things happen, but I feel like right now it's like a tectonic shift.

It's a big shift in the way that the game's being played.

And I think there's a misconception out there from people that if

you've got a lot of followers, that it just becomes magically easier.

And so we're gonna talk through some of that.

Talk through what you are seeing on the platform, how you use your personal brand

to stand out Right after this quick word about our podcast sponsors Metricool.

For people who somehow have been living under a rock and have not come

across you on the platform, tell me the journey from no followers to a

hundred and seventy five, seventy seven thousand I, I lost count.

Yeah.

Talk us through that.

How did that actually happen for you?

Yeah, I feel like, you know, a little bit is like right place, right time.

I, I say that as I was like, I just posted minutes ago about how

what I was laid off in, in 2016.

So I liked the serendipitous, connection between that post in doing this now,

but it really was in 2016 and I was laid off from the tech startup that I

was working at, and I kind of got hit over the head with this realisation

that, you know, that whole idea that you work hard and you get rewarded doesn't

really work in the business world.

And there's so many things that are out of your control.

And, not to get too far into it, but you see it all the time.

Right.

Especially right now you're talking about all the shifts and the layoffs

that are happening right now.

And I think people are all coming to that realisation that there's only

so much that's in our control, and I don't like that as a control freak.

I didn't like that at all.

So I was like.

Well, let me redirect myself and figure out what is in my control.

Like what can I do?

Because every time something like this happens, I'm having to start from scratch.

I'm having to like prove myself all over again.

And what if there was a way that I could kind of stand out and

build a community without it being tied directly to where I work?

Because so many of us are like director at this company and we

pour everything into that place.

And so I want to shift and create this kind of like foundation.

And so I always call, my LinkedIn, my career insurance.

So those, those are really the people that know, like, and trust me,

regardless of, whether I'm a LinkedIn instructor or I'm an acrobat, right?

They just are following me because I'm Michaela.

And that's a blessing.

But it doesn't mean that it was easy.

A lot of it came from just being really transparent about how

hard it was as a job seeker.

Talking about the challenges that other people weren't, while everyone else was

posting like, oh, I got this promotion and I did this, and everything just kind

of felt very Kind of isolating, right?

I would go online and I'd be like, I can't relate to any of these

people because everybody seems like they have it all together.

And I'm here at rock Bottom trying to figure out how to dig my, my way out.

And so that 170 whatever thousand people just really came from this, realisation

that I didn't wanna do that anymore.

I didn't wanna play a game where I constantly had to Compete against

other people's awards and, who's the most perfect employee and

who's at the top of the food chain.

And I just wanted to kind of be myself and I wanted to see also if there

was anybody else that was dealing with the same challenges as me.

So I started sharing a lot of that on LinkedIn and Trust me.

Like I, I was just as shocked that people actually cared

about how my interviews went.

But that, that got me kind of hooked on LinkedIn because I felt like it was

like the great equaliser for, for those of us that weren't born into wealth,

don't have like a celebrity name.

We're not nepo babies and we want a chance to be heard and to be seen.

And so I kind of Geared towards like building my own business and, and

helping people kind of create their own voice on LinkedIn, just because I think

that everybody deserves a chance and a chance to create career insurance too.

Absolutely.

And this is something that I think is really important for marketers right now.

I mean, the world's upside down, back to front.

The layoffs are crazy.

Doesn't matter where you are in the world.

And I think the time to build that insurance is not when you need it.

So, no.

Like you, I never realised that I was gonna have to quit a job on the spot.

I was loving my job.

I had the best job, great pay, loved it.

And then I had to quit on the spot for some things that happened outta my

control, and I just wanted to protect my reputation that I'd built so hard

and for so long and just couldn't be associated with that business anymore.

And it's not at that point that you need to try and take out insurance.

You don't, you don't take out insurance after you have the car accident.

Like it has to be insurance beforehand or the, you know, the break and enter.

I love that.

Insurance is in place, upfront.

And so for me, I was, really grateful that I'd been building, my Online

personal brand, not that I knew it was called that at that time.

That was like a whole new language that I learned on LinkedIn.

But the relationships and the network is really what, eventually became

my business, which is kind of crazy.

But something that I also love as part of this, journey that I'm still

figuring out as a business owner.

It's different when you work for somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but like you, I realise that.

I'm not the world's greatest employee, like I deliver results and I am really

good at what I do when I was working in sales, but I don't really like working

with other people is what I discovered.

I thought I was a team player.

I'm really not.

As a people person.

It was kind of funny for me to figure that out as I've, you

know, come along this journey.

Let's think about this.

Like, you know, 175,000 plus people that are following you.

And I heard something on another podcast that I was listening to yesterday that

said How much of a privilege it is that we get to create content and have

an impact on other people's lives.

Yeah.

Now that to me I was like, yes.

And they're strangers no less, for the most part.

So I really find that as something that is a blessing in what we do.

But there might be some people out there that are thinking, oh,

that's great for you Michaela like you are probably an extrovert.

You love attention, you wanna be part of a crowd.

Can we dispell this myth?

Because you not really any of those things.

I've met you face to face.

Crowds aren't really your happy place.

You are not the loud extrovert.

You are hiding in the corner.

Just going, whoa, this is a lot.

Can we talk about what that's like for, I'm gonna call you an introvert.

If that's not what you would call yourself, please correct me.

But just having experience, like being in the same room as you, it is not

something That is easy for you, but yet you show up so consistently for other

people and I think that is impressive.

Oh, thank you.

I love the compliments.

I love it.

I don't have anybody complimenting me during the day.

It's just me and my dog, so I appreciate that.

I think, at the end of the day, there's a biological core need

inside all of us for connection.

You know, a lot of us say that we hate small talk and that's perfectly fine.

I think that the people that hate small talk are actually,

socially anxious, and that's the reason that they hate small talk.

A lot of us really like those deep conversations, like having, all

of us had at least one of those conversations where you walk away and

you're like, ahh like, that feels good.

Or it just, it, it recharges you.

Like it, or it feels like relief, like it just feels.

It feels really good and so the same thing goes for me.

Actually, when I started on LinkedIn.

A big part of the reason that I wanted to was because I struggled

in my twenties with agoraphobia, so I couldn't leave my house.

Really struggled with crowds like full blown phobia where I would have

panic attacks, but I still had that innate desire to have conversations

with people and meet people.

And I wanted, like, we all want friends.

It's just that, oh, some of us just need to find a different way to get there.

And so LinkedIn was a really great space for me to almost

practice my social skills.

One of like my biggest things is really struggling meeting people

cold and knowing what to say.

I can have a deep conversation with some people.

Some people listening might be like, I had a three hour conversation with you,

Michaela, and that's absolutely true.

That's part of social anxiety, but I just don't know how to start conversations.

And so LinkedIn has been really a great testing ground for me to, number one,

break the ice before I go to events.

So I love to reach out to people before, so I'm not walking in cold.

But also just practice and get better because I really believe

that like social skills are a muscle and LinkedIn is not gonna replace

in-person social interactions.

But I believe like, just think of the pandemic, right?

How weird were we when we all got together after being isolated for so long.

I'm like, do I shake your hand or do I fist bump you?

Like what do I do?

And that is, that to me was such an aha moment.

That's why I started writing the book.

Of, we need to keep practicing this thing.

So I'm absolutely an introvert.

I, I don't think it affects, how I come across in person.

I think that for me, it's been just learning how I wanna be approached.

So if you're not good in, in crowds, I mean, don't sign up for

the networking event and stand around awkwardly at a table.

You know, we, we had a catch up after the event.

I met you in the speaker's room.

That's where I feel comfortable.

It's a small enough space.

There's people there, but not an overwhelming number of people for me.

And then I book a, a call with you afterwards so that we can

have a more in-depth conversation.

So that's what works for me.

And I think it's just been a process of discovery of like how to meet people.

But I think for each and every one of us, we need connection.

I couldn't argue that more because As an extrovert.

So at the other end of the scale, you know, give me as many people

in a room that I can talk to.

I'm the person that you don't wanna sit next to on the plane because I'm

gonna talk to you or at the bus stop or on the grocery checkout line.

Yeah, like it doesn't matter where you are.

I'm gonna want to talk to you.

So I am either your best friend.

I make a really great wingman for introverts at events

'cause I'm always there.

Noted.

Hi, this is, you know, so I'm good for that.

And I have had people literally attach themselves and follow me

around, um, which is, is great.

But if I look back and have a think about, okay, so I quit a job.

I wake up the next morning and go, what the heck just happened?

Like, it was a crazy 24 hours.

And Lil came to me and said, look, Michelle, you, you should

set up a business for us, and you are going to work as hard for

us as you do for everyone else.

It'll be fine.

And I was like, I had never even thought about creating a business.

So it was gonna go one way, went another way.

And we know how this story ends, but when we were sitting down writing the

list of pros and cons, the only con pretty much was Michelle will get lonely.

How would I deal with, yeah, it's true, right?

Yeah.

So how, how would I deal with being at home alone?

'cause we're in COVID and it was lockdown and all the other fun stuff in 2020.

What was I going to do to make sure that I would be okay In a spare bedroom doing

all my work with no people around me.

Right.

And that was really hard for me to adjust to because I had always worked in teams

and as much as I say I'm not a great employee, I loved having teams around

me, the social part, work with them.

I just didn't wanna be part of the team where I was held back, or I had

to ask somebody else could I do stuff.

And I'm so grateful for the people that I met during that time on LinkedIn because

I felt like I had to cut myself off from that previous industry in, in many ways

and create a whole new persona online.

And there's some people that helped me so much along the way.

The list would be too long to name them.

And of course Lil has kept me going the whole way through.

Like when I'm in the corner just going, okay, is this even working?

And people often get this perception that because we post a lot of content that

it's just easy and comes natural and we were born this way as opposed to we show

up consistently because I wanna fulfill that need within me, that is about helping

other people and helping them solve the problems to help them grow their business.

Right?

And that's what drives me.

But let's talk to the overthinkers and perfectionist Out there.

These are, your favourite audience.

I often think that, what we do is a mirror on ourselves.

Like realistically, if we, we look at a lot of the actions that we take, it's

like, who out there needs what I've got?

But They're often sitting on the sideline, and the thing that you and I

have in common is that we are absolutely committed to making sure that we get

as much and as many of those amazing voices that are paralyzed and stuck

on the sidelines watching everybody else play the game of LinkedIn.

Getting them through that moment to actually get them visible.

So if you had, a couple of minutes to give a pep talk to those overthinkers

and perfectionists out there, what would you say so that we can encourage

maybe a couple more listeners to get off that sideline and into the game?

Step away from your computer, hit post and step away from your computer

is the first thing that I would say.

Because when I started on LinkedIn, I knew That I was going outside

my comfort zone really and truly.

I would have to have my husband hide my phone because I wanted to, especially for

that first half hour to delete the post.

And I think it's so important.

I heard this quote once and it was talking about perfectionist

and how a true perfectionist isn't somebody that doesn't take action.

It's somebody that Takes action and then perfects as they go, like from there.

And I always try to say that to my clients, the ones that are

kind of sitting on the sidelines.

The other thing to remember is that when it comes to posting, part of it is for

myself, obviously I have to make money.

And that's what drives a lot of what I do on LinkedIn.

But there's also this part of me that.

Is like, is anybody like, still to this day, it's like, is anybody

else dealing with this thing?

Especially as, you know, like working with your, by yourself.

You don't have a coworker that to be like, Hey Betty, like,

have you ever dealt with this?

So LinkedIn, in many ways, it has become my workplace where I'm like,

Hey, is anybody else dealing with this?

So, the biggest thing is that there is freedom in vulnerability.

Because when I first started posting, I was terrified and I was terrified

of things that really didn't matter.

I never told anybody I had agoraphobia because God forbid you have some sort

of challenge that you have to overcome.

And, you know, mental health is, it wasn't kind of at the forefront as it is now.

And I still remember Being invited to speak at this like all women's event.

And they wanted me specifically to talk about my battle with agoraphobia.

And I was like, okay.

Until the day of.

And then I was like, oh my God, why did I say yes to this?

Like everybody, these are all like, you know, these beautiful, polished

business women, they're all gonna judge me and Michelle, I kid you not, I get

on stage and I start my presentation.

It was like during like a, a dinner and nobody even like raised their fork.

Like they were just like nodding along, listening and I'm like, I have

spent so many years thinking that this is like this dark shadow that

like, oh my gosh, if anybody knew this about me, they would judge me.

And nobody, if anything, people came up to me afterwards to be like,

yeah, I've dealt with that too.

And so there is so much freedom in learning that so many of our

experiences are universal, that it gives you this kind of confidence.

And I don't know if like you've had this experience, but it gives you a confidence

that you can't get otherwise if you're not open about these things that you think

are, these Major flaws within yourself.

And that's not to say, you know, you need to go on LinkedIn and talk about all your

flaws, but being vulnerable about things like being laid off, right, about being

a job seeker, about being passed over for a promotion, and what you learn from that

and what you're gonna do differently.

These are all things that are going to allow you to connect

with other people and also raise your confidence at the same time.

So I see it all the time with my clients where they start off meek

and mild and they're a perfectionist and they end up like being better at

content than I am because they just realise as they go through the process

that they are building a community of people that are just like them.

And the truth of the matter is we're we do business with people

that we know, like, and trust.

There are a million LinkedIn trainers, but there are trainers that I send

people to all the time like you, right?

Because I know, like, and trust you.

And so that, that has to be the priority, especially as we enter this

age of the AI where we don't know if we're talking to a human or a robot.

It's not gonna be the person that has the most experience.

It's gonna be the one that builds relationships with us.

It is absolutely about rapport building and there is a level of vulnerability

that comes with that, and I think that line is in a different place

for everybody at different times, and it's a sliding scale and we're not

here to say, like you said, go and share your deepest, darkest secrets.

Yeah, don't do that.

And don't blame me for it.

Yeah.

That is not what we're saying here.

And to the crowd that says, this isn't Facebook.

Like you don't need to go there.

Like that is not what we're saying.

But it's that Wall that we put between us and our audience, and that stops

them from actually connecting with us.

And I did this when I started creating content as a business owner.

I went through this.

We all do.

How do I show up as a business owner on LinkedIn?

Yeah.

'cause as an employee doing my own thing for six years with no rules, whatever

I wanted, my boss didn't pay attention.

I just posted whatever I want.

There was so much freedom.

I was just me.

Right.

Yeah.

There was no other filters to it.

I was like, this will help someone.

That's what I'm gonna post.

Became a business owner.

And looked around at all the other LinkedIn trainers and went, oh, that's

how I've gotta be when I'm a LinkedIn trainer posting content on LinkedIn.

I literally sounded like the LinkedIn help section and I felt suffocated.

Yeah.

And I was like.

You know what?

If this is what, being a business owner and posting content on LinkedIn, I

think I've made a really big mistake.

I'm not sure that this business thing's gonna turn out because the part of me

that I leave out and was leaving out back then was that I actually care about

people that I genuinely Do this because I absolutely care that other people grow

their businesses for, you know, all the reasons that I shared on episode 200,

if you missed it, I go into that in a lot of detail about what is driving me.

But ultimately it was one of those things that if I didn't just be

me, then I was gonna explode.

And then the other thing that I think I have a level of responsibility

now that I've reached like a certain number of followers.

Yeah.

When I share that something's not working for me, it almost creates this

space around me where other people can breathe and relax and go, yeah.

Oh my God, if Michaela Alexis are dealing with this, it's okay that I do as well.

Yeah, and those are the reasons that I've noticed that it's almost

a level of responsibility for it to not just be perfect all the time.

So if you're out there thinking you haven't got everything sorted and

you can't post Until everything's perfect, like please don't do it to

yourself like it is suffocating is, is the way that I would describe it.

Well, I, in, in my book, I interviewed a psychologist that

talked about this 15% theory.

Did we talk about this before?

No.

So there's this 15% theory in conversation, and it's just exactly

what, what you're saying, whether you're on LinkedIn or you're in real

life, and it's this idea that in order to have deep conversations with

people or deepen a connection with somebody, you have to be willing to

go 15% outside of your comfort zone.

And when you do that, you can actually like, just like you're saying, you

can actually see someone just kind of.

Relax.

So that I, I love the 15% rule because for those of you that are like, I,

I'm not gonna go on LinkedIn and talk about my divorce Michaela, like that

gives you like a pretty good framework.

So whatever is 15% out of your comfort zone, I talk, you know, I got on here and

I was like talking about how my dog ripped off his toenail and stuff like that.

So that's 15%.

You know, if I'm talking to a client, I might be a little bit

more Polished and put together.

So that's 15% outta my comfort zone, and that gives you permission

then talk about your pets, right?

And then that gives me permission to go a little bit deeper and that's

how we get into deep conversation.

That's something that we do naturally.

It's something that is not really quite as innate when we're on LinkedIn, but it's

something that we need to try to replicate in order to have those deep connections.

I think it's all about trying something new as well, like, and sometimes I

think Especially for the women that I work with quite often that 15% is

challenging you to share about the work in a way that you're proud about it.

You know?

Absolutely.

This doesn't have to be deep, dark, just emotional.

Yeah.

This can be actually owning that you're good at what you do, and I work

with some seriously amazing women.

That if you have a look on LinkedIn, you, you know, the disconnects infuriates me.

This is why I'm so passionate about this particular thing.

I know what you're talking about.

It is why I rewrite LinkedIn profiles so that they stop underselling people

because it drives me crazy that these amazing people put themselves

down into tiny, tiny little boxes.

And I get that.

It's scary.

I, I'm not trying to step over that fact that there is a lot of fear around this.

Maybe those baby steps are what really makes a difference.

Now, we've gotten this far and I haven't really asked you in the

conversation, you know, speaking of this LinkedIn thing that we've been

banging on about for the last 25 minutes.

What's working for you right now?

Like, yeah, what have you found in this crazy game of LinkedIn

is working for Michaela Alexis?

It's a lot, right?

There's a lot going on, and I wanna acknowledge that first, that the, the

LinkedIn algorithm, even for somebody like me, actually, you know, for bigger

creators, it's actually worse right now Because the LinkedIn algorithm seems to

be favouring smaller, newer creators, encourages them to create more content.

And bigger creators are not reaching even a, like a small

portion of their followers.

So I've told my clients, I'm like, Hey, I get some posts that

reach a hundred likes right now.

I have other ones that reach 2000.

Couldn't tell you what the difference is.

It's the same copywriting.

So that's number one.

I have noticed, did you, have you been part of this beta test for,

promotional posts for personal profiles?

We seen that.

So it just went live on my account just last week, and I am rocking in

the corner because I'm already seeing.

So for those of you who don't know what's happened, the ability to pay money to

boost your own personal posts And reach bigger audiences is so pay to play, which

I've been talking about on the podcast for pretty much most of this year.

That monumental shift on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

About pay to play is happening and that being able to pay for personal posts.

All I'm seeing is rubbish content.

That's not targeted at me.

Yeah.

That people are just burning through their money because, I mean, Michaela,

it, it makes it sound so easy.

Spend $50, get a a hundred thousand impressions.

Like why wouldn't you do that?

Because Yeah, it's easy.

Pay money, get results.

Like who would've

thought?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have a, you know, I am, I'm one of those people that kind of left the corporate

world because I feel like I have such a big heart when it comes to helping

people, and one of my issues with all of this is that, you know, you see this

huge dip in engagement and visibility, and then all of a sudden you have this

beta tested, promotional post that now you can pay to get more engagement.

And I think that it When we look at LinkedIn roots, and the thing that really

attracted me to it was that it was this great equaliser that no matter what your

last name is or where you come from or where you are in the world, that you

have the ability to be seen and heard.

And so that's my only issue with it.

But beyond that.

Let's, let's not even talk about the algorithm.

Yuck.

What's working for me right now, I kind of am looking at

LinkedIn as, as like a pyramid.

And at the very top of that pyramid, LinkedIn profile

optimisation is number one.

I think it would probably be the same for you too.

There are so many opportunities to turn your LinkedIn profile into like a landing

page where people can get to know you.

You can pre-qualify people before you speak to them.

You can lead them to links on your, your website to your booking links.

All of, there's so much to do with profiles right now.

So that gets me really excited.

I'm also seeing a lot of new features for, for premium, which again goes

back to the pay to play, but, that is something that people might wanna

explore before paying for posts and all that stuff because I think there's

some really great features there.

And then the next step on that pyramid, I would, I would really put networking.

On top of, content creation because there's so much going on in inboxes right

now, there's so much that you can do in terms of reaching out to people and

having virtual coffees, especially as things slow down at the end of the year.

This is the perfect time to really say, okay, what do I wanna do in the

next like 60 days to like, reach out to people that have time finally to,

to have a little chat, just like you're doing right now with the podcast.

Right.

Every time, every year, I, at this time of year, I create my list of people

that have helped me over the past year.

I put that together and then I, sit down in front of my Christmas

tree, which by the way is up.

I hope that, uh, you know, that's, that might be polarising.

That's the only polarising thing I've probably say this whole time.

I'm one of those people.

I'm a huge Christmas fan, and I'm getting a new christmas tree this

year, so, uh, no, I am on You put it, do it early, leave it up all year.

It's a business move.

It's a business move.

So I sit in front of my Christmas tree, I might put on a Santa hat, and

I just sit there and I record these like 30 to a minute videos for each.

Person that has helped me that year, whether it's clients, people that are

referred business, that sort of thing.

So that's like a great time of year to start doing those things

that you've always wanted to do, but you just don't have time to.

And then I'm sure that you've already already noticed,

commenting on people's posts.

I mean, I've had some comments that I've reached more people than my

posts do, and it's like, so you can see all the analytics for that.

And I tell my clients that are super busy, I'm like.

15 minutes a day, you're gonna go on a commenting spree.

Like, don't worry so much about the creating content all the time, let's

focus on the things that you can do.

So commenting is a big one.

I love newsletters.

I I, my love for newsletters is not gonna die anytime soon.

I have one for my personal and my company page, and I'm a one woman show

because I think that There's something really nice about having one that is

just about my personal thoughts, my kind of like my career blog and then one

that is just about LinkedIn training.

If you wanted to kind of keep it all together, you can do up to

five on your personal, is it still five or can you do more than that?

Five.

Five On both?

Yeah.

On both personal and five on your page.

So you can experiment with it.

And it's, it's one of those things that.

You don't have to feel so bad when it's like you get one blank and like, you

know, maybe 50 people saw your posts.

It's one of those things that you can play around with your

writing and get better at it.

And there's so many ways to kind of add subscribe buttons and that

sort of thing, and you don't have to worry about the algorithm.

I like, that's my favourite part of it.

So, newsletters for me have been incredible.

Like, I've had gotten clients directly from my newsletters just

because they're like, I really like that newsletter that you posted.

I wanna post something like that.

So those are like my three I, I think I mentioned three things that

I'm like really all about right now.

You are preaching to the choir when it comes to newsletters and, and if

anyone is thinking about starting a LinkedIn newsletter, trying to figure

out whether it should be an email newsletter, a LinkedIn newsletter,

a substack, a beehive, whatever.

I've got a whole episode dedicated to this because I am so on team newsletter

that I thought I should look into each of those different sections.

So you know, you and I would have that three hour conversation,

but I want to wrap this up and.

I am going to give you a moment to do a quick shout out for your

upcoming book, which is amazing.

Tell us about what it is, what can we expect and when is it gonna be released?

'cause I saw the pre-releasees sorted, so what's going on?

So it actually came out this year.

I'm trying to remember the exact date.

February for, No Fear Networking.

It's a guide to building connections for the socially anxious professional and

This, I tried to make it unlike any other business book that I have ever read.

'cause I've read a lot of them and I was like, okay, I don't wanna

hear about meditation, I don't wanna hear about deep breathing.

I wanna know the things that are science backed, that work.

So I went through so many scientific studies.

I talked to so many psychologists, I did so many interviews.

So everything that's contained in the book Are either things that have been

tried and tested by myself, or have been sourced from other people, or are

science backed or all of the above.

So it's really more of like a, a handbook or like a guide, I would say for somebody

that Knows that they need to network, which is by the way, all of us, but

doesn't really know how to start and is, you know, has been kind of trying to shove

themselves in a box where they just go to the cocktail parties and stand awkwardly

around and are kind of beating themselves up because it doesn't work for them.

'cause there are so many ways to network and I promise it's just

one of those things that you, you can actually make networking fun.

I really do believe that.

You absolutely can.

And you know, this is something that we'll, of course put all

the details in the show notes on how people can buy your book.

It's exciting and thank you for making time to have this conversation with me,

because it was everything that I hoped and I, I, the main reason was I know

that we would reach a different audience that is that audience that is Hesitant

about putting themselves out there, about having these networking conversations,

about letting people see who they are and what they do, and own that brilliance.

So I appreciate everything that you've shared today.

I'm not gonna probably speak to you before the end of the year, but

have an amazing Christmas because I'm a Christmas Little elf myself.

There's gonna be people listening that are like, you guys are nuts.

It's the beginning of November.

I'm a big kid that would leave lights up all year.

So if there's any other big kids out there who love Christmas or however you

choose to celebrate that time of year.

Send us a message, drop us a DM on LinkedIn and

yeah, I wanna know, is your Christmas tree up?

Do you have decorations up?

Yeah.

Or are you like the December 1st?

Absolutely not.

Look, I am breaking all those rules, so until next week's listeners.

Cheers.