[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 182 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thanks so much for joining me today. This week's episode is proudly supported by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village now we have doulas all across Australia.

[00:00:50] Well, I. On the eastern coast line, I would say tick tock if anyone's, um, in the middle or on the west side, let us know because maybe we will start putting doulas over there as well. For all those playing at home, we essentially look after mamas and their families through pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.

[00:01:11] We're like the Mary Poppins of mothers some have said and I absolutely love it. I do it myself. I've been doing this for the past five years, and I'm so lucky and fortunate that I get to do that alongside 17 other amazing women here in Australia. Now, if you haven't heard of Fill Your Cup, as I said, we're Australia's first doula village.

[00:01:35] We really believe in the transformative power of support during one of life's most significant transitions, and that is welcoming a child and becoming a mum. And we know from the research that in order for a mum to survive and thrive, she needs four fundamental things. The first is reliable and realistic information.

[00:02:00] The second is physical and emotional support. The third is psychological support and the fourth is sharing her experiences in particular with other moms and doulas can provide each one of those four elements, and that is what we do here at Fill Your Cup. We create postpartum plans for you and your family.

[00:02:26] We provide beautiful, nourishing meals to help replete all those lost micronutrients during pregnancy. We come and see you every week, if not every other day, if you choose to. It's three hour sessions. We bring beautiful food, we hold your baby while you go have a nap or a long hot shower. But essentially what our whole philosophy is, is to ensure that you feel nurtured and informed and empowered as a mama.

[00:02:57] So you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. And in fact, we're trying to just do ourselves out of a job because at the end of our, you know, doula program with you, we just wanna make sure that walking out that door and you're like, I got this I totally got this. So if this something that appeals to you, if you're pregnant, you know, a friend who's pregnant and you think, wow, they would really, really benefit from that.

[00:03:24] Head over to our website ifillyourcup.com and you can check out all of our doula services, birth and postpartum over there. Okay, let's dive into today's episode. Now this is interesting because we very rarely have, uh, guys on the science of motherhood, but I had the lovely Jason reach out to us and you will hear from our interview. I feel like Jason's doing, it's like a mirror, like everything that we kind of do for mums for at Fill Your Cup, he is doing for amazing dads. Now, Jason is a fatherhood guide he's an educator and facilitator with over a decade of experience creating programs that have impacted over 1 million people globally.

[00:04:16] He's a devoted dad of two, husband of 13 plus years, and Jason really blends his personal wisdom with professional expertise to guide men through what is you know, the transformative journey into fatherhood. That's exactly what we are going to be talking about today. And you will hear in this discussion how Jason's absolutely amazing at helping men embrace the challenges of fatherhood.

[00:04:46] You know, he designs bespoke rites of passage and shares his reflections through his business raising fathers and essentially, Jason is driven by like this singular purpose, which is to elevate fatherhood and help men step into this sacred role with confidence, intention, and heart, which is so beautiful.

[00:05:11] And you know, it's something that we talk about in our postpartum planning sessions. Typically, you find dads like they just sometimes fall by the wayside and yes, we are trying to be very mother centric and mother focused, but they, you know, the support person, you know, has to be included in this and they have to be acknowledged and they have to be part of the conversation in order for it to have like an amazing postpartum for everyone.

[00:05:40] So it was a kind of a no brainer when Jason said, Hey, you know, do you reckon it would be really valuable for your audience to hear what Dads can do to best support their partners? And what are the kind of relationship shifts that they see in early parenting? And, you know, what are the conversations that we should be having before the baby arrives? And I was like, it's a hell yes from me. So without further ado, here is Jason Seeman from Raising Fathers. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Jason from Raising Fathers. How are you?

[00:06:17] Jason Seeman: Thank you for having me. I'm going great.

[00:06:19] Dr Renee White: Oh, I, I, I dunno whether like this is a good thing or a bad thing. Probably 'cause it's called the science of motherhood.

[00:06:26] But I was thinking just before I was like, I think I could count on one hand how many male guests we have had on this podcast and it's not really intentional. It's just kind of how it falls to be honest, when I'm, when I'm chatting with people or people put themselves forward for the podcast. But it is so lovely to have you here and we are gonna be talking about, I guess all things fatherhood.

[00:06:51] And I think for me, this has come at a really opportune time because I was talking to, you know, a, a family the other day, soon to be first time parents. And when I was talking to the mum, we were having a chat about, you know, obviously our doula care is very mother centric and, and things like that. But I said to her, oh, so we do these planning sessions and we absolutely want Dad to be there.

[00:07:19] Like, your partner should be there because they often get forgotten and she, you, I heard her just do this oh, thank goodness because I feel like he's getting really lost along the way. Like, we're going to these appointments and like, you know, was chatting to the obstetrician and, and he like, he's just, he's just like a little accessory that comes along.

[00:07:46] Mm-hmm. And like, oh yeah. Oh, you're there too okay, great. You know, thanks for coming type thing. Mm-hmm. I would love to know, I guess first and foremost, a little bit more about your background, but how, how you came into this and is this the narrative? Like, is this, what kind of, you know, Raising Fathers is all about making sure that dads up, up, up there, right up there, you know?

[00:08:09] Jason Seeman: Mm. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I mean, firstly, um, acknowledging Yeah. Not many male guests on the podcast, I think is a microcosm of what you're talking about, right? Yeah. And it's fair enough. I mean, birth mostly always has been, and to some degree always should be women's business. Mm-hmm. And that's really important to, to retain.

[00:08:28] I think where men come in and, and it's important that we start thinking about them, is more education for men on the birthing process, but especially postpartum is, does only good at so many levels. And I think where the mistake potentially gets made is, yes, to some degree they are an accessory or like a, a third wheel or I, I often like to call them the lighting guy and the mum is the main actress, you know?

[00:08:54] Dr Renee White: Okay. I like that

[00:08:55] Jason Seeman: Everyone's here see the mum and the baby's gonna be best supporting actress. Maybe you're, you're the lighting guy. You need to do a lot actually, and you're super important to the show going on, but no one sees you and that's okay. And finding the ways to do that well so that he feels seen by his partner is super important, but ultimately it is about her and the baby at that stage.

[00:09:17] And then postpartum, as I'm sure we'll get to, is kind of the main show in my opinion, in terms of, yeah, I, I saw you mentioning something elsewhere about how 90% of families prepare for birth and only five for postpartum.

[00:09:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:09:31] Jason Seeman: That's fascinating statistic.

[00:09:33] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:09:35] Jason Seeman: I think it really does ring true as well. Yeah. Helping dads in that element as well is, is a big part of what I do because that's where we actually become very useful. And there aren't doctors or midwives or doulas or there are doulas around postpartum, but you know, you are at home like the, the real deal's going when you are there with your kid and that's when you can really shine and, and show up.

[00:09:56] So yeah, that's a big part of what I do and my background is what you. So a, a few lives lived i, I started out as a lawyer, which we think I've shared on quickly, recognised that wasn't for me. And I've spent the last decade or so working in education in various organizations, uh, globally, that supports students and their parents.

[00:10:16] And most recently at the Man Cave, which is a preventative mental health and emotional intelligence organisation that works with teen boys. And that was really what started to influence where I am now, which is Raising Fathers, because I saw what happens when spaces are provided for young boys to feel psychologically safe.

[00:10:38] Learn some basic emotional intelligence tools and start to talk about what's really going on for them. But we see how beautiful they are. Mm-hmm. And I don't hear many people speak about how beautiful teenage boys are. You know.

[00:10:54] Dr Renee White: Generally it's like smelly, you know? Yeah.

[00:11:00] Jason Seeman: And because, you know, for a variety of reasons that probably go beyond the breadth of, of this conversation, they're, they're socialised to behave in a particular way, but when they feel safe to take off the mask and be themselves, they are caring, compassionate, kind, gentle men.

[00:11:19] We just need to provide them with the space and the tools. And I, I found myself going, you know, we're talking to boys about their rite of passage from boy into manhood. What about the rite of passage from manhood to fatherhood?

[00:11:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:11:31] Jason Seeman: Where huge shift in expectation and what skills are men given to. Support their partner, support their child and themselves as they enter family life. But arguably, you know, these skills become even more important. Right. So, mm. That's kind of what give, gave rose to, to what I'm doing. Yeah.

[00:11:52] Dr Renee White: And, and I'd love to know when you were at the man cave, like, so you're a dad as well.

[00:11:59] Jason Seeman: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:12:00] Dr Renee White: Was it chicken or the egg? Like, do like, did you become a dad first and then go, hold on a minute. This space needs to evolve and, and we need to start having these conversations. Yes. Or like, what was it?

[00:12:12] Jason Seeman: Nice. Thanks for asking that. That's, yeah. That's really great. Definitely. It was dad first, so I became a dad. And you know, a little bit about my experience and feel free to stop me at, at any point if I,

[00:12:24] Dr Renee White: I've always personal experience. Let's hear it.

[00:12:26] Jason Seeman: Yeah. I, I became a dad. I was very excited to become a father. I've, since I was a young kid, loved kids. Like kids melt me, even other people's kids melt me. I just, I loved them and yeah, I was very excited to become a father and we had great birthing support.

[00:12:43] We used, had shared care between a private obstetrician and mama midwifery who were amazing. We've worked with them, uh, twice now, and the birth was held very well, but was nonetheless a challenging home birth where it went for about 36 hours at home before being driven to hospital because baby wasn't, uh, wasn't coming at the rate that was required. And you know, when you're told by home birthing advocates, it's time to go to hospital. Yeah. You listen,

[00:13:12] Dr Renee White: it's time to go.

[00:13:13] Jason Seeman: Yeah. Yeah. And they were, they were fantastic. And our, our beautiful daughter, Layla, was born safely and is wonderful and great and all the things, but in that process of the birth, I recognised how ill prepared I was emotionally for that experience.

[00:13:32] Mm-hmm. That I, in, in summary, the, the uncertainty, the amount of time that it took, and just not knowing how to be in that space really rocked me. And my default mechanism and my coping mechanism was to keep myself busy. So I cleaned up and the, the kitchen and the home, you know, where we were birthing was spotless.

[00:13:57] And I was refilling teas for the midwives and for my wife and making snacks and making sure everything was where it needed to be when re and that's all helpful and great, but where I really needed to be was just next to my wife and holding her. Mm-hmm. Physically and emotionally. Mm-hmm. And, uh, at the like deeper level, if I really inquire which I, I have since the birth, it's 'cause I didn't know how to fully do that for myself.

[00:14:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:14:22] Jason Seeman: I didn't have those skills to hold myself in uncertainty and challenge and therefore I felt too uncomfortable to just sit there in the not knowing and be a rock for her. So that led me down a path of self-inquiry after the birth, I, I had a kind of moment, uh, that's like one of those moments where during the labor was that point where we were discussing whether to go to hospital and I just went upstairs and I looked in the mirror and I said out loud, if my daughter's born safely, I'm gonna get some help.

[00:14:54] And the feeling, I didn't know what help looked like. I felt like maybe it's seeing a therapist or something, but I was like, I feel like this gift of a child that's coming needs the best version of me and I need to be more emotionally intelligent, more conversant with my feelings and more able to hold them.

[00:15:12] So, mm. But it's like this, that will come are ones where I can really show up. I didn't have the language for it in that moment, but that's what that represented.

[00:15:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:15:21] Jason Seeman: And that was a big awakening for me, as was the rest. You know, Layla was born during COVID Lockdowns in Melbourne.

[00:15:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:15:29] Jason Seeman: So we had a lot of time together postpartum, and I spent a lot of time working on myself and, and working on yeah. Some of those things I mentioned and they proved to be super useful. Mm. Then in that process I joined the man cave, which beautifully helped me learn some of these tools as well. Understand, you know, how help seeking behavior is so important for, for men especially who don't seek help or speak to their mates.

[00:15:54] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:15:55] Jason Seeman: You know, therapeutic benefits of vulnerable story sharing, what that does for the mind and the psyche and the emotions, and got to really learn. Uh, so yeah, that's a little bit, I've forgotten the question now.

[00:16:06] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. I just have so much to unpack from that. I'm like, I'm furiously writing notes,

[00:16:12] Jason Seeman: please.

[00:16:13] Dr Renee White: My first question is, and this is something that we always kind of chat to our families and we say, you know, it doesn't like a good, bad or ugly. We think it's so important to have a birth debrief individually and together and you would know probably like, you know, as a mum, you like, you lose track of like chunks of time.

[00:16:35] I mean, I had an elective cesarean, so everything was super in a controlled environment. 'cause that's what I needed, A type personality. Hello. But I lost chunks of time.

[00:16:45] Jason Seeman: Yeah.

[00:16:45] Dr Renee White: And it was so important for me to tap back in with my husband and be like, what happened? Mm-hmm. Like, how long was that? Between this event and this event. And it felt like five minutes, but he was like, oh no, you were like, it took about 40 minutes for you to come to recovery. And I was like, holy hell like what ha did I leave my body or something? I wanna know, did you do like any formalised kind of birth debriefing individually or together?

[00:17:13] Jason Seeman: Individually, yes and then together we did it informally. Massively helped. Massively. My wife actually said she didn't fully recover from the, I want to use the the term delicately the trauma of, yeah, first birth until we fully debriefed together. Yeah. And it took a while. And you know, I used, I say I use that word delicately because it can mean different things to different people.

[00:17:37] Dr Renee White: Absolutely.

[00:17:37] Jason Seeman: But, we had a very great birth. It was just a challenging in its own ways for us. Yeah debriefing is huge. I mean, that's one of the things I speak to dads about in preparing them for the birth is mm-hmm. The recognition that mum, especially when active labor begins, becomes a different person and her psyche is complete.

[00:17:59] She's way more in her animal self, her limbic brain. She's not operating in the level of consciousness that you're used to and so don't try to engage with her as you normally do.

[00:18:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Right.

[00:18:10] Jason Seeman: Noone talks about that and to be a good birth partner so much of it is being attuned to her and what she's moving through and just having simple things like understanding, you know, maybe it's not a time to make a joke, for example.

[00:18:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:18:22] Jason Seeman: 'cause she won't get it and she won't want to get it. How would you engage with her if you were really sensitive to how she's feeling? You might not even use words.

[00:18:30] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:18:30] Jason Seeman: You might be touching, making sound grunt noises to match and mirror her body during the process. Like it's a whole different way of thinking that we just aren't really told about.

[00:18:41] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yes. Yeah, a absolutely. I totally get that. We use a tool, uh, in the postpartum where it's like a numbering system. It sound, it's very similar to what you were saying in terms of how you communicate, because you would un, you would know that like your brain is just cooked, you're sleep deprived. And my husband did this to me all the time, and he was like, he's like, what do you want me to do?

[00:19:10] And I'm like, I can't even, yeah. I can't even map that out in my head as to what's going on. Or he would come home and he'd be like, how was your day? How were you feeling? And I was just, I would just like stare into the abyss and I'd be like, I don't know. Like, I feel like about five different emotions in like two microseconds.

[00:19:28] Jason Seeman: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:29] Dr Renee White: So yeah, we, we implemented this thing at Fill Your Cup where we talk about using the number system, which is kind of like, you know, say someone enters the room and they're like, so how was your day? And you're like, I'm running at a three.

[00:19:41] Jason Seeman: Yeah.

[00:19:43] Dr Renee White: You know, because you don't have to, you don't have to qualify any of it and, and the conversations that you have previous to that is like, okay, three is not great. Three is like everyone's hands on deck. We're getting Uber Eats for dinner. Like, you know, we're getting the kids into bed, ASAP and we will debrief later. Yeah. There will definitely be chocolate ice cream sundaes later, you know, all those things.

[00:20:07] Yeah. So there's, there's like an action plan, but that's so, so similar to what you're saying is that you just need to understand that communication is completely different in these moments. But on that kind of similar vein, you know, like having those moments of communication asking for help, this is something that we equally talk to mums more or less about, and I, I hear this from lots of mums who are just like, I'm really struggling, but I don't know how to ask for help. Like what are your suggestions and recommendations to dads did? Like, okay, first of all, did Dads find it as hard to ask for help?

[00:20:51] Jason Seeman: I think they ask. They find it hard to ask for help in different ways. Okay. So. What some of the research suggests is, especially around seeking help for mental health. Yeah. Um, there's more of a stigma for men. This is the man box research by Jesuit social services that basically says there are gender stereotypes and norms. Mm-hmm. Uh, they're not wrong to have some of those norms, but when we rigidly stick to those norms, IE don't be ourselves. It has negative impacts on our mental health and is also associated with a higher likelihood of perpetrating domestic violence and aggressive behavior towards women.

[00:21:28] So it's, it's pretty compelling research and it basically says these traditional norms of what it means to be a man IE being tough, not showing emotion, having a detest for people with other sexual orientations, all these kind of things you would. I just strummed my guitar by accident. Um, all those things you'd typically associate with traditional masculinity that when we rigidly stick to these norms, it's not good for us and the people around us.

[00:21:56] Mm. One of those norms is not seeking help because there's a stigma attached with weakness in seeking support, especially for mental health. That means a lot of guys don't reach out and that's why suicide's the lead, leading cause of death for men under 40 in Australia. I mean, it's terrible to talk about, but that's the thing.

[00:22:17] And so I think at that level, that emotional support, men are typically really bad at it. Mm-hmm. And they're bad at it. Not just from seeing formal support, but also just reaching out to mates and saying, Hey, I'm actually really struggling. Mm-hmm. I just wanna talk, which I believe we can change and I, I think I'm a part of trying to help change.

[00:22:34] As far as practical support, I think guys tend to be a bit better at that and I've got a little hack I try and give parents beforehand that I call it five by five before you have your baby. Uh, thinking about, and you can find this stuff online and talk to people like us about it, what are five things that you believe you might need help with?

[00:22:57] So these things might be, you mentioned before, stocking the freezer. Mm-hmm. Super important before. Mm-hmm. Or it's a meal delivery service or something like that. Other might be general housework, like the washing. Maybe if you are having your second or third or fourth kid, it's playing with your toddler and just being there for them.

[00:23:15] Maybe it's an emotional support thing. Hey, I just want you to come have a cup of tea and ask me how I'm doing. List what those five, and it can be more than five. Yeah. But list what those five things are and give them each your number as well. Um, so number one is housework. Number two is emotional support, whatever it is.

[00:23:30] And then reach out to the five people that you are closest to with a message or a call and say, Hey, bubs due in X months or weeks. I've selected five people who I feel like are my village that I can really lean on when things are hard, and here's some of the stuff I might need help with are you comfortable with being one of my five?

[00:23:53] I think most people who receive that message or call are gonna be like, oh my gosh, thanks for like

[00:23:57] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:23:58] Jason Seeman: Choosing me as one of your top five. Like, you know?

[00:24:00] Dr Renee White: Yeah. You're the VIP.

[00:24:03] Jason Seeman: It's a beautiful And people want to help.

[00:24:05] Dr Renee White: Yes, they do. They do.

[00:24:07] Jason Seeman: And especially if they're not parents, they don't really know how to help either. Yeah. And so by giving them these directions in advance, say, here's my one to five, I'll just message you at a point and say four.

[00:24:18] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:24:18] Jason Seeman: And you just know that means send food.

[00:24:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Jason Seeman: Because I don't have the capacity to explain how I'm feeling. I really related to what you said about that staring into the distance. Yeah. We, we had with Atlas, who's my son when he was born, my wife had some physical things going on for her that, you know, so many women do that made it very difficult to sit down or to stand up. And we all got a virus so we were just down and out as a family. We had, yeah, my daughter Layla running around 'cause it was summer holidays so she wasn't at daycare.

[00:24:50] Yeah. It was really something. And I just remember sitting in my car and looking at messages of all the congratulations and how can we help? And I sent this video because I just finally slowed down and I just sent the video to five or 10 people mm-hmm. In the moment. I hadn't done in advance, um, saying, Hey, thanks for asking how to help.

[00:25:12] I haven't responded 'cause I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what help looks like. But I've taken a breath, I've slowed down, here's some things you could do. Thank you so much. And sent that video to the closest people in my life and they all came through. It was amazing for doing that in advance. This such, such a help. It's just, you can press the button and you're, you're good.

[00:25:33] Dr Renee White: I, I love this. I, I'm, I am a huge advocate for like, prevention is better than treatment, so I am just like, what are all the things that we can do before the baby arrives? Okay, here is the game plan again. Hello. A type personality, I love checklist. I would love to know, you know, in hindsight and also you've given us some really great tools that people can use. What are some of the other conversations you think that, you know, families should be having before the baby arrives? Like

[00:26:07] Jason Seeman: nuts yeah, it's a great question. The first thing I'll say is everyone is different and so what I'm gonna say is, based on the men that I've worked with and my own personal experience, you might hear what I'm about to say and go, good luck making that happen for us. No way and that's so, it's so fine. Everyone has their perspectives for me. I mean, it goes without saying that there are some practical things you should get in place, which we just mentioned some of them.

[00:26:34] And let's just assume those are done. Yeah, I think one of the big ones is firstly around birth. Mm-hmm. Um, understanding that mum is the center and it's her choices that are gonna dictate what happens. And what I mean by that is developing together what your birth preferences are you know, are you doing a elective cesarean all the way to a home birth or you know, there are even other options out there, right?

[00:26:59] Mm-hmm. Where on that spectrum are you and just ensuring that you're both aware of what the options are 'cause culturally we live in bubbles still, even with the internet, and we often don't know what's out there. And I think extending from that, 'cause birth is just this one moment in time, a very important one is starting to reflect on what are your values individually and as a couple for how you want to be as parents.

[00:27:22] I think one of the big challenges is there are, but we we're not aware of till we're there. Mm-hmm. Is there are so many decisions to make as parents, and these decisions actually matter quite a lot because they're about how your child is gonna grow up. And I'm not just talking about things like, where will they go to school or will they even go to school?

[00:27:41] Things like, will we, what, what are our values on things like breastfeeding verse formula or something in between? Mm-hmm. What are our values on sleeping? What are our values on baby wearing these things? There's so many philosophies on how to parent, and again, my perspective isn't to, to tell anyone what to do, but just to be aware of them and find the philosophy, the evidence base, whatever you require that makes you feel like a, you are educated about the spectrum of options and that you're choosing ones that align with how you like to live your life is super important and it reduces the overwhelm later because again, it's not like you have to decide beforehand, will we co-sleep or not? Yeah. But understanding that world Yeah. And what that entails and the differences and the types of sleep training. It just means you can go, oh cool I intuitively like this bit. Yeah. And not this bit. We'll see when we get there. And you don't have to dive into the Google research and everything else when you are exhausted and under-resourced.

[00:28:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:28:44] Jason Seeman: yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Is huge.

[00:28:47] Dr Renee White: I, I totally agree, and I love the point around co-sleeping in particular because, and I can't quote the statistic honestly, but it's, it's a huge number. Like, let's, let's say it's like, you know, 80, 80% of people say we're never gonna co-sleep and then like, you know, 70% of those people actually end up doing it, but they do it when they're like super sleep deprived and they haven't like read the, you know, the red Nose guidelines and they're kind of just like winging it and they're just like, oh God.

[00:29:17] Like is this actually like what we are doing? It's like, yeah, look, you know what, like if you, if you plan ahead, it can actually work really, really well if you want to. So, yeah, I, I totally agree with that and then anything where you're not like super tired and hormonal and possibly really sore and making hard decisions, like that's, that's gotta be good. Right?

[00:29:41] Jason Seeman: While we're on that one, I might add just one more. Yeah. Not so much con uh, it is conversations, it's exactly what it is, but it's starting to think about what rituals you might wanna instill during pregnancy that can carry through into postpartum for you and your partner. Mm-hmm. So I'm not talking about date night out at the movies.

[00:29:58] That's, that's not happening. But, you know, one example I give, and I've seen work really well, is just something called a check-in. Yeah. And you know what that look, and this might not be your thing, but essentially it's you set aside, let's say it's 15 minutes and you have something associated with it.

[00:30:15] Maybe you light a candle, maybe you light some incense, whatever's your, your vibe and you get a little object that you can hold, like a ball or a stick or something. And that's the talking stick. And it's a one-way conversation with your partner about how you're really going and it's in its own dome or container.

[00:30:34] So you go 15 minutes, I'll go first. I'm holding the thing, Hey, I am actually really tired today and I can just kind of verbal vomit how I'm doing and know that it's not gonna actually be responded to right away. They're just listening. Yes. Uh, and then you swap, and then you can have a convo after if you want to.

[00:30:52] But what I've found so useful about that, particularly between partners is number one, it's just cordoned off time where you can actually speak and not become that kind of housemate phenomenon where your parents and you just kind of see each other in the hallway from time to time.

[00:31:06] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:31:07] Jason Seeman: It's obviously a precursor to rekindling intimacy is having emotional intimacy and this is a way to help achieve that. And also, again, it's, it's preventative mental health. You just having a check in with someone who cares about you so much and they're just listening. It's a huge one for guys listening without solving

[00:31:24] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah.

[00:31:24] Jason Seeman: Is massive. And just knowing that mum can check in for her seven minutes or take all 15 whatever she needs and he's just gonna listen. Yeah. It's big. So big things like that that you can even start, you know, it doesn't have to be daily. You might do it every other day or even once a week. To start just means you can have that continuity that, that you do have time for postpartum and it's just this thing that's like, oh, this is our home. This is our like familiar place where we can do this.

[00:31:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's, that's great. That's a great idea. I, I always have these conversations with my husband where I'm just like, and I, I have to actually start with it now because I need to remind him and I'll start with, I just want you to listen. No problem solving and he like, looks at me and you can see just this fear of God on his face. He's like, but I dunno how to do that. And I was like, well, you're just gonna have to like, mm-hmm. I don't, I just, I just need to vent this to you okay. Yeah. So you're gonna be the soundboard and I don't wanna hear any problem solving. I might come to you and ask for some problem solving in maybe an hour, but I just need to regulate my emotions for a second here.

[00:32:36] Jason Seeman: Nice. Yes. Beautiful. Beautiful. Love to hear that.

[00:32:41] Dr Renee White: I wanna ask Because this is, and I, I know this might sound like really cliche, and I do hear this, sometimes I, I hear like guys who are like, oh, well, she's had the baby, and the baby's kind of like, like the baby's almost like a blob. Like the bla baby's not gonna interact with me whatsoever. You know, I, my, my, my partner is exclusively breastfeeding.

[00:33:11] What could I possibly do to support, like, what could I, what could I possibly do to help out? And like, I just have to sit there and I'm just like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, her, do you want the whole list or like, yeah. So Jason, please tell, please tell us all the things that Dads can do partners can do yeah to help. I'm mum with a newborn baby. Cool. And no, we are not gonna make that a whole nother entire episode. Yeah. But we probably could.

[00:33:46] Jason Seeman: We totally can and I'm so here for it. Okay, so first things first. Um, even in the question, there's a mindset shift that would be beneficial to take place for dad. So the way you asked it, you said, and you used the word that's common by the way, I'm sure this isn't your made up thing.

[00:34:05] You've actually heard this is dad says, baby's basically a blob. Yes. So straight away, there's an assumption here that baby can't engage and even if it was a blob that for whatever reason dad requires something in return for being with baby, what if, what if you are right? And, you know, someone was, this was actually quite funny. They said newborns are like a sophisticated house plant. I don't like the message that sends, but it's quite funny. But, you know, let, let's assume you are right, even though you're actually wrong. It implies therefore, that for you to engage emotionally and be present with someone, you need them to give something back to you. Hey, welcome to Parenthood. Yeah. The life of selfless service.

[00:34:48] Dr Renee White: Oh God. Yeah. You think they were a parasite when they were inside your womb? Yeah. News flash.

[00:34:55] Jason Seeman: Yeah. So it's like, just, you know, I, I've actually got, and I know we're on on Zoom, but I might share screen with you and just show you something from last night.

[00:35:04] Dr Renee White: Yes. Uh, we could, I mean, if you're happy to share it, we could always in the show notes, um, later.

[00:35:10] Jason Seeman: So yeah. I'm taking, uh, a group of men through a program at the moment called True North. That's an eight week program to help prep them for fatherhood. Mm-hmm. And a lot of what I speak about it is, yes, understand feeding cycles and c how to change a nappy, but honestly you can Google that pretty quickly.

[00:35:28] Yeah. But talk about the deeper sides of parenting that are around developing the emotional and communication skills so that you can really show up 'cause that stuff. Is what kind of makes or breaks your relationship post-birth, which is delicate already. Anyway, around selfless service. I tried to kind of paint a picture for them because I need to keep reminding myself like you did with that deep breath. It really is like that, that mm-hmm. When we don't know some of the things that get asked or you know, play out in behavior, like how could you possibly not see that? And it's quite enraging.

[00:36:00] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:01] Jason Seeman: But they don't know what they don't know.

[00:36:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:03] Jason Seeman: And I'd say that, you know, advice for any mothers listening, I'm so sorry that this is the thing, but patience and,

[00:36:10] Dr Renee White: yeah.

[00:36:11] Jason Seeman: Compassion just always wins out that the second, particularly a man feels patronised or like they've got something wrong and someone's finger wagging at them. They get offsite and defensive really quickly. Mm-hmm. I mean, all human beings do. Yeah. But I think particularly men, and I hate saying that 'cause like, how patient do we have to be?

[00:36:31] And the answer is, I don't know.

[00:36:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:36:35] Jason Seeman: Still it still helps and, you know, giving resources and understanding is always better than, than kind of this frustration. But I, I tried to paint a picture for them anyway. Yeah. What, what it feels like and I asked them first to do a visualization where I asked 'em to recall the last time they were hungover in their life.

[00:36:51] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah. Okay.

[00:36:52] Jason Seeman: Got through life in the morning when, how did their body feel? How did their mind feel? Where were they? What did they spend the day doing? You know, in all likelihood they were watching a movie and trying to just keep some food down and take care of themselves.

[00:37:05] Dr Renee White: Yep. Hydralite

[00:37:07] Jason Seeman: yeah. Like closest thing I can describe to like that, to month of month four of parenting. It's not the first couple of weeks, it's like month four. Every morning you wake up feeling as close to hungover in terms of your body and your emotions. But the difference is you can't just sit on a couch and watch a Marvel movie. You actually need to be on. So you have this combination that I call the parenting recipe for dads that I've got here, that I showed them, which is the ingredients are, we caught a cup of diced sleep, a teaspoon of melted me time, a pinch of stress to taste a hundred grams of return to work, three kilos of house chores, a cup of healing mum, and two cups of a newborn baby.

[00:37:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:37:47] Jason Seeman: that's, that's postpartum. And your method as dad is to combine all of that in a bowl lovingly stir and not make it about you.

[00:37:55] Dr Renee White: I love that.

[00:37:56] Jason Seeman: That's hard, right?

[00:37:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:37:58] Jason Seeman: 'cause when it's put like that and you know, if you are a working dad, I can guarantee you'll have all of those things. Like those aren't maybes. They are definitely. And when we combine all of them, it can be hard to remember, oh actually mum has all this as well and more. And your job is to keep things together and make sure it all tastes good and not make it all about your stuff.

[00:38:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:38:22] Jason Seeman: Your stuff important, but you are. Center of your universe. Mm-hmm. Your baby is and your partner is. Yeah. Um, which is a lot.

[00:38:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah, exactly. Uh, for me, I think my recipe would also include five cups of resentment and, and the leftovers of, of a preexisting, uh, mental health challenged wife who walked into pregnancy already anxious.

[00:38:50] Jason Seeman: Yes.

[00:38:51] Dr Renee White: You know?

[00:38:51] Jason Seeman: Totally.

[00:38:52] Dr Renee White: And it's just kind of like, you know, cop that, because I think for me, I really struggled with the fact that my husband got to leave every day and go to work, and I was left at home with my baby who, you know, can't have an adult conversation. And as someone who was very career orientated and had a lot of self identity wrapped up in my career, that's a, that's a slap in the face when, when you're like. Oh, okay so my whole day is sleep feed, change nappies. Sleep feed, change nappies. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah, no, I don't like this. Thanks.

[00:39:32] Jason Seeman: And then it's dad comes home and goes, gosh, you wouldn't believe the day I've had and just,

[00:39:36] Dr Renee White: I know

[00:39:36] Jason Seeman: all about his situation.

[00:39:38] Dr Renee White: What are we having for dinner? I'm like, um, shit sandwich mate. That's what you're getting.

[00:39:45] Jason Seeman: And that's right. And so if you don't know, you behave in this way. And I'll just show you this last one.

[00:39:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Jason Seeman: As you said the word resentment.

[00:39:52] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:39:52] Jason Seeman: Act. When you behave out of alignment and you're not your best self and you're tired and you go slinging dirt around, you know, you get resentment and mistrust from your partner. And this was a joke, but also real. Yeah. You know, baby gets inherited, dysfunctional behavioral patterns, irreconcilable, self-doubt, and inauthenticity when you are not there, you know?

[00:40:12] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:40:13] Jason Seeman: It's all part of a longer course, so I won't go too much into that. But the really important

[00:40:18] Dr Renee White: that I, I love that recipe slide. That is so, so true. Absolutely. And I love the hangover analogy because I think it's really hard to describe to people like what those early newborn days look like. Like I remember, I remember my husband saying to one of his friends, and they'd had two kids Yeah. Two kids before us, and, um. He was so funny.

[00:40:45] He was like, so do you think I should just start sleep depriving myself now? Like practicing? And they were like, absolutely not like, do not do that. And he was like, but don't you think like, I should just get used to not having any sleep. They're like, no, you need to bank it up. Like before you run a marathon, do you just go and absolutely hammer yourself like the, you know, the couple of weeks beforehand?

[00:41:13] No. You deload. Yes, you deload. You do not. Don't compound it. Are you mad? Yeah. And he just perplexed, he was like, he was like, oh no, I'm all in on like the whole sleep deprivation thing. Like, I, I should totally practice for that and I was like, that's the thing I've ever heard.

[00:41:29] Jason Seeman: I, I get the thinking to be honest I actually

[00:41:32] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Well he was, being proactive, let's give him that. Right?

[00:41:36] Jason Seeman: Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[00:41:38] Dr Renee White: I, I wanted to touch on, you kind of already alluded to this, but relationship shifts in early parenting. Like I and I, I love that, that sit down and, and have like, you know, a moment with one another and just talk to one another.

[00:41:53] Yeah. But it is definitely something that I don't think a lot of people invest a lot of time in thinking about, like what that shift actually is going to look like. In your experience obviously we've got the tool of sitting down, but are there any other things that. You know, partners can kind of game plan in advance around that.

[00:42:18] Jason Seeman: Yeah. I've, I've got a little kind of, I like frameworks we're we're similar in that way. I think about type a ways of thinking. I have a framework I like to use called CPR.

[00:42:27] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:42:27] Jason Seeman: Um, speaking for member, and it's basically, I'm not gonna pull up a slide again, but it's basically a Venn diagram of mum, baby, and dad. And that when you have even a pregnant part partner, but it's just the two of you, your relationship's just linear like this, it's a two-way relationship. Mm-hmm. But once baby's in the picture, there's your relationship with mum, IE it's a dad, dad and mum and this does apply of course for same sex couples as well.

[00:42:54] Mm-hmm. Um, but it will manifest slightly differently I'm sure. But you and and birthing mum. Birthing mum and baby and you and baby. And then the three of you together is family and what I like to talk about is. Each of those relationships require different ingredients in order for them to be successful.

[00:43:11] Mm-hmm. And a different theme. And so that's what I've kind of called the CPR is for you and baby, the as in dad and baby, the priority is just connection. And so you mentioned before around the blob factor, we didn't actually get to that. But anyway, the main thing is if, if you slow down enough with your baby, there are so many ways that you can connect with them as a dad.

[00:43:33] Mm-hmm. So many. But it requires. It's almost like if we eat sugar and then we eat an apple, the apple tastes sour. Yeah. Because we haven't, our sensors are so desensitized after that sweet sugar hit, we're not actually slow and sensitive enough to feel the apple. A lot like with the baby, we're so hyperstimulated that we expect them to be talking and doing back flips and that's engagement. They're a baby, but they're actually engaging with you very deeply. And my biggest one here would be wear your baby. I freaking love wearing babies. I'll wear other people's babies. They'll give it to me. It's the most beautiful thing at this tiny being on you, on your chest and heart.

[00:44:14] It's like a, A hug. Mm-hmm. And you get to carry them around and it's super efficient for the dads out there that want to do stuff. Yeah. I mean, don't get the power tools out, but you can be at your computer doing your life. You can be cooking some food again carefully, or just going for a stroll like that was my big one, is I found just talking to friends during postpartum 'cause the loneliness aspect was super helpful. Yeah. And I'm like, cool, I'm gonna give mom a break. I'm gonna put baby on me, go for a walk, baby will fall asleep on me. I get a bit of exercise in little weighted vest with a baby in it. Yeah. And I get to talk to a mate all at once. It's like, just win-win for everyone.

[00:44:51] And I dad's really like these kind of practical hacks. Just always think about what is the win-win or what's the win-win for mum and baby. And I'm happy to take the loss 'cause they have a lot going on. Mm-hmm. And just keep understanding how much they have. Connecting with baby, uh, is huge and your, your main priority with bub in that CPR is just connection.

[00:45:12] That's your goal, is just connect with them. Again, things like if you do dream feed or you bottle feed, you could do things like that. But there are so many opportunities, bath time. You know, one that I loved was with my second bath time was my time. Mm-hmm. And I also did, uh, I think it's called Abhyanga, which is like this Vedic technique of doing an oil massage of baby

[00:45:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:45:34] Jason Seeman: After a bath.

[00:45:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:45:35] Jason Seeman: And use different oils for different things and I loved, I got to give my baby a little massage and it was so tiny and it's just such a beautiful way for me to physically bond and get all that oxytocin rushing through my body. 'cause mum obviously with breastfeeding, if, if that's her choice gets so much of that.

[00:45:52] And we actually get that opportunity as well with skin to skin. Mm-hmm. Um, if we choose to lean in. So Connect is with baby. The, the P is for you and mum, dad and mum and that stands for Protect and reason I say that is I think this newborn phase particularly is probably the most vulnerable time in your relationship 'cause you have the new person involved lots like matrescence, patrescence if we want to go there as well, everyone's changing. Mm-hmm. When we change, that's beautiful. But it's just important that we change together. Yeah. And we don't, you know, we grow together rather than apart. And so tools to protect the relationship are super helpful.

[00:46:33] The check-in is a really beautiful one. Things like, ah, just asking from the question, Hey, how can I support today? Here's some ideas. Mm-hmm. Hey, how can I step up more? And she might say, I don't know, or have nothing or she's like, oh, thanks for asking. Just this. It's like simple stuff. Things like understanding how body image gets impacted in postpartum and like I making really clear that you don't have expectations around that. And if you do take a look at that, maybe talk to me or someone else about that 'cause that can have a real impact on mum. She's already been don universalized to everyone, but she's going through a lot, most likely with her own body image.

[00:47:13] And she doesn't need any pressure from you around whatever some of those norms might look like. And that's like a very quick ticket to killing intimacy is to make someone feel and to what they're already feeling about insecurity with their body.

[00:47:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:47:28] Jason Seeman: Compounding. That's not gonna be good for anyone. And with that, I guess the counter to that, like words of affirmation are so helpful. Just things like, Hey, you're a really great mum and you're doing really well. Like for us, we might hear that and go, oh thanks. But for a mum who might be feeling quite delicate, emotionally quite lonely to hear those words in that first few weeks or frankly ongoing is like the biggest thing in the world for her.

[00:47:53] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:47:54] Jason Seeman: it's massive. Yeah. And she's like, oh my God, am I actually doing well? And then you're like, oh wow, she really needed to hear this. Mm-hmm. Yes you are. Here's why and they're like, they start to sit taller. It's like, it's a huge, huge deal. And then things like becoming a master of house chores, like mum should be able to be with baby and just know that everything's taken care of.

[00:48:16] And if she's thinking about the thing that's not done, that's gonna start potentially depending on who she is, start changing her cortisol levels and then babies can receive that stress if she just knows you've got it covered, she's gonna relax and have a much better experience. So yeah, so many things.

[00:48:33] But yeah, protecting that relationship's critical and the last one, R is for respect and it's just to respect baby and mom's relationship and not try and compete for attention. That can be that third wheel feeling. Mm-hmm. Not try and compare your relationships, but just respect like they do have a unique bond, the birthing mother and baby, and that's wonderful and you can celebrate that, but just respect it and respect the time that they need and that it is gonna look different to yours. And that's fine. It's a beautiful, yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:01] Dr Renee White: Oh, that's so lovely. Thanks for sharing that, because

[00:49:04] Jason Seeman: Pleasure. Yeah.

[00:49:05] Dr Renee White: I think, um, as I said, some people just, it's not even on the radar and like coming back full circle, you don't know what you don't know. Right. So, yeah, that's, that's all really, really valuable. Thanks. We, oh my God, we, I knew we were gonna run out of time rather than the topics, but that, that's totally fine. Before we dive into, we've got like a couple of questions in our rapid fire. I'd love for you to just give us like a really quick snippet on this True North program because, I mean, I'm not even a dad, but I feel like I need to sign up.

[00:49:41] Like, it sounds so good and I'm like this True North program. This is definitely going in our postpartum planning book for, um, all of our families to like do, because we do get, you know, dads who, as I said, like we've got, you know, beers and bubs and, and things like that. But this sounds like it's going a bit deeper and having conversations and I love this whole self-awareness stuff as well. I think it's,

[00:50:09] Jason Seeman: yeah. It's a big one.

[00:50:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah. So can you just give us a quick snapshot of, of what that looks like, um, and how people can get involved?

[00:50:17] Jason Seeman: No worries. Yeah, sure. Um, I mean, firstly it exists because I couldn't find anything else like it that does and I didn't get it. Um, there is birth prep stuff out there for dads that's really great.

[00:50:27] Um, shout out Prote Prepared Dad Foundation for that as well, who do free prenatal education for dads. I haven't done that course yet, but I believe in what they're doing. So I just wanna give you a shout out. But of this kind, which is probably a bit more postpartum focused. Is actually about going deeper beyond the, the birthing process and saying, how is your life and your partners, and therefore your family's life going to change?

[00:50:50] And what can you start doing now to prepare you for that change so that once you're in it, you're just going again, use like training before for a triathlon. Mm-hmm. You don't rock up on day, game day and go, I'm just gonna run and wing it

[00:51:04] Dr Renee White: Ta da.

[00:51:05] Jason Seeman: You do the prep on the day, you can just run and have a good time and, and this is really about that. And so, uh, it goes for eight weeks. We're currently in week two, um, of a cohort, but I'll be doing more cohorts over time. We do them as live 90 minute calls once a week for eight weeks. Mm-hmm. And we cover a range of topics. I'd say it's kind of like a, a Venn diagram overlap between a lecture and a men's circle.

[00:51:30] And why I say that is I'll provide information. We learn that information, we reflect on how it applies in our life. We then share with the group what we reflected upon and then we can go and try something at home and see how it lands in our life, and then come back and keep iterating week by week. So it's supposed to be something where you learn the concept and that week you can go home or turn off your computer in this case and start to implement it. So for example, last night we did our section on emotional intelligence and I covered off what some of the research from the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence says about what we can do. And there's this five step acronym called ruler the way to really be able to, in the moment short circuit your initial emotional reaction that might not be your best self. Mm-hmm. Come back to yourself and go, how would I actually behave if my kid was watching right now? Turns out they will be watching.

[00:52:21] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:52:21] Jason Seeman: Will inherit how I behave which for me, that's the number one skill a parent can have, like men or women is emotional intelligence 'cause your kid's emotional world will be dictated by how you navigate your own.

[00:52:31] Yeah. And it's something we don't learn much. We're starting to learn it in schools, but not much. Mm-hmm. Things about relationships and intimacy and how to be with a changing mum and a changing self. Defining your values. We mentioned briefly before your values on different things in parenting, working out what philosophy or philosophies you align with that you can kind of almost turn to as your quicker source of, oh, great. What does aware parenting say about this? Or What does attachments for parenting say about this? And you can start to understand what's your flavor

[00:53:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:53:01] Jason Seeman: Of parenting and how that will influence you. I also have a guest midwife involved who come and comes and does a birthing q and a about what do guys wanna know? And also sharing some stories about what she's seen birth partners do well and not well in the room. I have a guest psychiatrist as well, who's a child and adolescent psychiatrist come in and talk about the spectrum from baby blues to postnatal depression and how to navigate that and how to support and look for the signs.

[00:53:28] Uh, and then postpartum life as well kind of is laced throughout. But practically, what does the first 24 hours look like as a dad? Yeah. Whereas the first week look like. What, how does your role change across time? Uh, 'cause it does, uh, and that's,

[00:53:43] Dr Renee White: that sounds like magic.

[00:53:44] Jason Seeman: Yeah.

[00:53:46] Dr Renee White: That's, that's, that's awesome. That is so, so good. I, I love that. 'cause as I keep saying, I'm all about prevention is better than treatment. Mm. Thank you Jason, are you ready to dive into our, uh, rapid fire?

[00:53:59] Jason Seeman: I am. I love it.

[00:54:00] Dr Renee White: Okay, here we go. Now I all, I, I, I normally ask what's your top tip for mothers? But I'm gonna flip it and say, what's your top tip for dads?

[00:54:09] Jason Seeman: Hmm. Nice. Top tip for dads is presence is number one. Uh, and that can be physical and emotional presence. Mm-hmm. And, uh, if you ever need guidance, turn to your partner. Turns out that there's some really good parenting coaches out there, and they're called mum but they don't know everything, but they have a lot of deep wisdom that we can learn from.

[00:54:31] Dr Renee White: I love that. What's your go-to resource? Did you, like when you became a dad, did you have a go-to resource? And it could be, it could be a book, it could be a workshop. I've had guests even say a poem.

[00:54:46] Jason Seeman: Nice

[00:54:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah. A quote or something beautiful. Like what, what, what's your go-to resource? That kind of got you through.

[00:54:53] Jason Seeman: Mm-hmm. It just changed. Can I give a few? 'cause it just changed. Yes. The time. Yes.

[00:54:57] Dr Renee White: Yes. Um, I'm

[00:54:58] Jason Seeman: gonna go in reverse order. So currently I really love Marianne Rose's work.

[00:55:02] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:55:03] Jason Seeman: Layle Stone wrote, raising resilient and compassionate children. They do aware parenting. It's a really interesting philosophy and approach that I really resonate with. So that'd be my go-to at the moment, particularly as I have toddlers who are, have all the challenges the toddlers come with and learning to navigate that in a, a compassionate way. Parts work or internal family systems therapy as a modality for being with our own challenging emotions 'cause kids will trigger you more than anyone ever has.

[00:55:30] Dr Renee White: Yeah. It's like, oh, you didn't, you didn't work out those emotions in your adolescents. Guess what? They're back.

[00:55:38] Jason Seeman: Here's another opportunity. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, and so yeah, learning how to navigate your internal world is, is huge. Uh, 'cause your kids, again, they're always watching and absorbing. So definitely anything on emotional intelligence or being with your emotions is huge.

[00:55:55] And honestly, I'd say like the biggest one that I'm really trying to cultivate as well is your own village of dads that you trust because you know mum does know a lot and also she's not a dad and you can turn to your village and not this can look like is having a men's circle for dads. I run those also other people run them too.

[00:56:15] You can find ones local to you and just having a place where you can go, Hey, I'm going through this at the moment, what do you reckon? And just seeing like 10 other hands go up and saying I've been through that can just mean so much. Um, make you feel far less isolated. Yeah. Those are some

[00:56:30] Dr Renee White: awesome. I love that. Our last question, which we borrow off Brene Brown.

[00:56:36] Jason Seeman: Mm.

[00:56:36] Dr Renee White: What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:56:39] Jason Seeman: As in like a book or

[00:56:41] Dr Renee White: whatever it is? Someone said Dust once Jason, which I absolutely appreciated the transparency on.

[00:56:50] Jason Seeman: Yeah. Uh, it'll be the book I'm currently reading with my little nightlight thing that clips onto the book. Yeah. I hate, I hate admitting this, but my phone is next to me on, yes. On the bedside.

[00:57:02] Dr Renee White: Yes, we do do it.

[00:57:03] Jason Seeman: Bottle a bottle of water. I hate admitting that, but it's the truth. Yeah. A bottle of water.

[00:57:07] Dr Renee White: That's it. Yeah. Love it. So you're a, uh, 'cause I'm a recent Kindle Convert. I've completely switched over to Kindle now, but I am always still fascinated to talk to people who, who buy the hard books still.

[00:57:21] Jason Seeman: I've reverted back.

[00:57:22] Dr Renee White: Oh, you reverted

[00:57:24] Jason Seeman: yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:25] Dr Renee White: Can I ask why?

[00:57:27] Jason Seeman: Yeah. There's no rational reason. Okay. Something about the physical book and holding it. Yes. Which was my resistance to the Kindle. And then I held a friend's Kindle and used it, and I was like, this is way better in every way. Yeah. Uh, and it is, Kindle is better. Yeah. There's something about like, you, I, speaking about Marian's book, like I love that. You know, like, this has been used. You have it. Like it's got, it's just,

[00:57:50] Dr Renee White: I I I I'm totally with you on like, I feel like those types of books where there's tabbing Yeah. You know, like, you know, fiction, nonfiction. Right. And so yes, I'm totally down for, I mean, you can see like all the books that behind me here and I've, where is Marian's book? It's up there somewhere. I think she's, uh, yeah, got a few, I think she's got another one coming out soon.

[00:58:16] Jason Seeman: Yeah. There's,

[00:58:17] Dr Renee White: or it's already out.

[00:58:19] Jason Seeman: I think I'm here and I'm listening. That one,

[00:58:22] Dr Renee White: what it's called. But yeah, I think she's coming back on the podcast to have a chat about it.

[00:58:26] Jason Seeman: Oh, great.

[00:58:28] Dr Renee White: Which, which is really good. You have been amazing, Jason. I have had the best time. I've learned a lot as well, which I think has been really good. My brain's just been like, how can we make this better for dads? TrueNorth is definitely going in our postpartum planning guide. Hello. Thank you very much for that because yeah, it's, it's one of the number one things that our families ask us, like, uh, and, um, have you got any resources for dads? And I'm like, yeah. You know, the classics right. I think this course will be really, really cool for people to sit down and

[00:59:04] Jason Seeman: thank you

[00:59:04] Dr Renee White: together.

[00:59:05] Jason Seeman: One little caveat to say on it is it is designed for men pre fatherhood.

[00:59:10] Dr Renee White: Yep.

[00:59:11] Jason Seeman: So, you know, postpartum wise, however, I'm gonna do a postpartum one, but it won't be eight weeks because you don't have the time.

[00:59:18] Dr Renee White: No, you don't. You've probably got about eight minutes.

[00:59:21] Jason Seeman: Yeah. That'll come. It'll just look different. Um, but that's okay for things. Yeah.

[00:59:25] Dr Renee White: Um, where can we find you? Tell us your website, your socials, all that stuff.

[00:59:30] Jason Seeman: Um, my website is www.raisingfathers.com. My Instagram is raising underscore

[00:59:39] Dr Renee White: we'll put it all in the show notes.

[00:59:41] Jason Seeman: You can find me.

[00:59:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Um, well thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I know that this is gonna be a very well received podcast and I hazard a guess that there's gonna be much sharing of this podcast with, it'll be like. Hello, partner, please listen to this. Okay, thanks. Goodbye.

[01:00:04] Jason Seeman: I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Thanks for having me on and you know, exposing people to what I do and also, yeah, just asking you some great questions, really.

[01:00:12] Dr Renee White: Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much. Alright everyone. We'll see you next week. Bye. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[01:00:34] You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.