What would be the benefits of using Echo compared to some of the traditional platforms,

They have to keep on bolting on new features, but they're running old

systems. We're coming in now basically scratch built with

the newest standards. Property is a very big deal. The bit where you

carve up a property into tokens is called fractionalization. Because

it's fractionalized, you don't necessarily have to have such a large amount of

money for the average user. So you could have a portion of a property and

in the meantime, you could borrow against, say, in stablecoin and

Are you integrating any AI into Echo? And

if so, how would that benefit the consumer? We're

looking right now at doing... I'm Matthew Fraser and

this is Crypto Collective. After making millions with Amazon

and e-commerce, I realized that if I was starting again

today, crypto would be my first choice. I'm

here to help you take your first steps and build real

wealth. Ready to set yourself up for life? Let's go.

Today I'm joined by Sam Dora, CEO of Echo,

a DeFi platform that is bridging traditional finance and

blockchain, helping investors unlock smarter, more

secure ways to build long-term wealth. Sam's

not just a CEO, he's also the youngest board member on

the Isle of Man's Government Digital Asset Committee, where

he helps shape policy for the future of finance. Echo

is doing something unique by bringing real world assets on

chain in a way that's simple, safe, and

built for long term investors. If you're serious about crypto, wealth

building, and the future of money, this one's for you.

Let's get into it. Sam Dora, welcome to Crypto Collective. How

are you doing? Hi, Matthew. Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure.

Sam, can you tell us about the new platform that you're spearheading, which

is called Echo in this fintech space? And what is it

Echo as a platform is up and available now.

You can find it on echo.im. It's made up of an

initial set of products, one of them being Echo Token,

one is Echo X, Echo Pro, and then another

product called Echo Elite, and that makes up the

How does that differ to other types of platforms that

There's a few, it's on a per product basis, I

suppose. So Echo Token, for example, is

a deflationary yield token, as

opposed to an inflationary token. So

the Echo Token itself, 50% of top line revenue, which

runs through Echo X and Echo Pro, is returned proportionally to

Echo Token holders. On the exchange side, it

will be something which a lot of people are familiar with, with

cryptocurrency generally. But for us, it's more of a trial where

we're running cryptocurrencies through to begin with before we

add real world assets and other instruments to

And so talk about that little part you mentioned before, which is

about customers, I guess, sharing in revenue

Yeah, exactly that. And it's a super important thing to note

that it's top line revenue too. So

it's really easy maths, right? We can't cook the books

at all. So the way it works is literally, so normally when

you trade something on exchange, there's a fee. Well, either there's a fee normally,

or they say that there's no fee and put a

spread on the thing and hit you in that way. So

there's a fee, which for us is 10 BP, which

is 0.1%, which I think is a, I'm not going to

say it's the lowest, but it's definitely an industry low, I think.

And of that, 50% is passed on

proportionally to ECHO token holders in stablecoin. So

you don't get more ECHO token, you get stablecoin for

that. And then 10% is burned, and

that's bought off the open market, so buy back and burn. So it's

I think that's a really important point there, Sam, that it's not the

token, it's actually Stablecoin. Can you just talk to me

a little bit more about that? Because I think we sort of just brushed over it, but I

think compared to how other systems work, this is a big, big

Yeah, it's a huge deal, especially in like in

DeFi land. Like last bull run, you had the farm

tokens, which were super popular, where you'd

have these kind of insane interest rates for

staking, you know, shitcoin X. And

what would end up happening, though, is they'd mint into oblivion, basically, because

you're getting interest for in-kind interest. and

all that happens is you think you're gaining interest but you're not really it's

just inflating itself away and it just becomes a

case of you know pass the parcel or you know who's going to be you

know musical chairs or who's going to be left holding the bag basically whereas

we wanted to create arguably a very long-term

sustainable model for yield, which actually has a

flaw on it by definition, because it's

based on exchange volume, effectively. So

the pitch, so to speak, for Echo Token at a very basic

level is, do you think the exchange is going to get volume and how much?

And that's going to dictate, ultimately, the price of Echo Token, because

that's the yield we're going to receive as well. So, in

some sense, it's quite unique in the cryptocurrency space because it's

Was there something in particular, Sam, that's happened in

your life that made you think, I'm going to bring in this type of

offering to clients because this, again, is very unique?

Yeah. You know, it sounds kind

of cliche, but I really dislike consumers or

retail customers getting taken advantage of. And for

me, one of the easiest ways for Wales

or institutional types to do that kind of thing is exactly with

bad tokenomics or with schemes which

almost guarantee you to lose. And I think that just kind

of sucks, really. And I'd much rather people at

Yeah, a fair shot at actually making some profit. That's what we're talking

I mean, on that note as well, it's been fascinating seeing

all the stuff which has happened with PumpFun and

the meme coin factory over on Solana. for

me there's it's kind of a double-edged sword because part of me likes it

part of me likes the community side of it it's quite fun the other part of

me is it's sucking massive amounts of liquid out

of retail customers and effectively giving

them nothing and there's there's arguments at

least on on my side of the fence over here which

I'm hearing, which is part of the reason why you're not seeing some of the alt-run happening,

is because PumpFun has sucked out so much of the retail money

Oh, interesting. I have heard that as well, about the liquidity.

But I've also just in recent days heard that the

market could be going up at any moment. I think the big one

today, Sam, is actually if the Solana

ETF comes off. I think that was the narrative that's being spoken

about now. Would you say that if that does come off then there

I think it has to get beyond a place where people are just hoping the

institutional client is going to come in and save them. Like

a lot of these alt coins and chains

and stuff, they need to provide real value to

customers. And that's at an application level sometimes as

well. So obviously they can say that, oh,

we're an infrastructure play, et cetera. But if there's

nothing on the chain worth using, it's

why right and and

for me um btc already performs

the function of being, you know, effectively a buy and hold asset.

I don't think you necessarily need other equivalents. You

need the other altcoins to do something. And

ETH is historically being quite good at that because of the smart contracts, you

know, when it first came out and stuff, the smart contracts was novel compared to

Bitcoin. So, you know, it allowed certain use

cases and things, but there's a pretty wide

gap now, I think, between some of these different chains. My

hope is that Solana

has obviously become the kind of meme chain, which is

fine, it's carved a niche. But I don't know if that's

necessarily a great fit with an ETF. But

we'll see, who knows? We'll see what the market says. It's

not like Wall Street isn't up for a bet.

Yeah. Well, speaking of different, I guess, different types of tokens, I

know that Echo is going to be talking about or bringing in sort of

the real world assets into the mix. Can you talk about real world

Yeah, sure. So a real world asset for your

listeners It's in the name, I suppose. So,

so normally they're considered securities or

security tokens. They're sometimes referred to as, uh, cause

usually you would have say, um, a stock or a

bond or a T-bill or something. Um, you,

you tokenize it. So, so you mint an equivalent onto

the blockchain and custody, um, the,

the real version of. Um, is the idea. So in

principle, what happens is you have all the benefits. Of

having your real world asset while also having

the smart contracts and the blockchain stuff on top

is the idea. Um, real world assets, of course, don't have to necessarily be,

um, just, uh, stocks and

bonds and stuff. They can, I mean, property is a big one, which people

are interested in. There's other stuff too. There's a lot of play going on right

now in private equity, um, or people selling, um,

private or tokenizing private companies. Um, because it's

an excellent way of raising funds without technically IPO-ing.

Um, there's also, uh, some play around

art and things like that. I mean, there's touches a bit on NFTs of that, but

there's a lot of play really in in what you

can tokenize. I mean, for me, sitting on the other side of the fence, sitting

on the other side here and looking at what things we can tokenize,

the easiest thing is to tokenize the things which have a well-known

market price. So the easy things are stuff

like stocks and bonds because when you when

you do the equivalent of you can do you can Oracle

track the price of say Apple stock to your Apple

token so you know that they're both worth the same amount but

it becomes much more difficult to do that on assets

which don't necessarily have a market price or

it's more difficult to find out what the price might be. And

that's where a lot of the real estate problems come in because,

you know, who's to say what house is worth? Is it what

the estate agent, the real estate agent says? Is it what the seller says?

Who's to say what the price is at any given moment? And

So just in practical terms, Sam, do you think if you just talk about property, I know certainly

in Australia and other sort of Western parts of the world, property is

a very big deal. And so would you

say then you would have a value of perhaps that would go in and

assess a value of X, Y, Z property, and then

it would be tokenized based on that. And then the retailers or

I guess institutions could come in and buy those tokens and

Yeah, so that process, the bit where you carve up

a property into tokens is called fractionalization. So

that's when you take the whole and you cut it into little

pieces, but in this case it's different tokens. So

yes, that's exactly how it functions. The difficulty is

in who holds the custody of the property and

do people trust the valuation. Do you

believe the valuation and do you trust the people which have the

deed? Those are the two big issues with real

Yeah, and so if people do have tokens then, Sam, in a property,

I guess are they just hoping that over time this value

of this one particular token goes up and they can then sell

it? And do you think maybe, just thinking about property, would you be able to even leverage

Yeah, yeah. This is exactly the same direction which we're thinking

to collateralization effectively. So what

you do is you take, in this case, the property token.

And the nice thing being that because it's fractionalized, you don't necessarily have

to have such a large amount of money for

the average user in that one item.

So you could have a portion of a property, you're hoping on the speculative

gain. And in the meantime, you could

borrow against, say, in stablecoin and buy something else. It's

still hedging, obviously, and you could get liquidated, but the idea is

that something like property or gold

or something like that is much more stable to borrow against

than straight cryptocurrency assets, because they're less

Yeah, I think that's really, really powerful, the collateralization

of the tokens, because right now we've seen that things like

Bitcoin, for example, even in places like Australia and the

US, you can now leverage your Bitcoin. So

you can borrow against your Bitcoin, right, for either stablecoin

or cash. And I think that kind of leads down the path that we

want to be able to still own property, traditionally property we can leverage. And

if we can now leverage tokens, I think that'd be great. Do you think that's going to

be something that Echo in the future would implement into

Yeah. Part of our

longer-term roadmap is to have what's called

a peer-to-contract protocol, which is a

borrow-lend protocol, which allows users

on platform to not borrow against us as a platform, but

to pool assets and then lend them out to other

users or borrow from the pool. You

see a similar thing with Aave, for example, in the DeFi

space. But the problem with Aave is what I just mentioned, which

is that the most stable asset on there is Bitcoin. And

yes, it's perfectly reasonable to borrow against Bitcoin, but

it can swing. And that can be

slightly nerve-wracking, especially with very, very large numbers, because

Right, yes, you want to be careful of how much you're leveraging. I

want to just pivot, Sam, into something else, which is But

more about the Echo platform and about the governance of

that. How does the governance work within Echo? And also,

what sort of security measures does Echo have for the everyday user?

Sure. So the governance is directly tied into

the Echo token. So we have a phrase which is one token, one

vote, one voice. And the idea behind that is

we have a legal structure in place called

the Echo Community Foundation. And that's an actual legal

foundation, not just name only. And

part of that, part of the remit of that foundation is

it receives upon, it's received 30% of the total

supply of Echo Topin as part of a vesting schedule. So

it receives it drip fed. And

the remit is that it's never allowed to sell the Echo Topin. And

instead it survives purely on the yield, which I

mentioned, which is the top line revenue piece into the foundation. And

then what we say is every quarter echo token holders

can vote. on how that yield is

spent. And we give a number of

options. So it's a kind of, I guess, the

closest form of government is probably a republic or something like that. So we present

a number of options in different baskets, and then people vote into

those choices is the idea. But

we really, we wanted to create a system which felt like your

vote actually mattered. Because it's very, very common in DAOs

and in various other governance pieces that you

get someone come in and swing the whole vote if

So what's going to be, Sam, is there going to be protection against people

Exactly, yeah. And the way that works though is because one

token is one vote and that is equal to a certain percentage of

the of the foundation so effectively If

someone comes in and votes and has some enormous hold, they

won't because of where the tokenomics are. But let's say they had 10% of

total supply and they chose to want

to reinvest in treasury, say. So they put that vote in. But all the rest of

the 90% of people can still vote for various different baskets

and different things. And we just cut up the

yield into that percentage split. So

what you vote for still actually gets the stable point.

Yeah. One thing you touched on though, which I think other

people may not have picked up is you said that the community cannot

Yeah. Yeah. So, so the foundation can't sell the token. Yeah. And

we've done that. And why is that important though? It's,

it's important because the foundation has a very large supply

of the token. And there's, there's always a fear factor

for, For potential token

holders that the foundation will dump the token, you know or sell off the

token in big chunks Or it

will do things like crow did recently crypto comm where

it used its own foundation vote to bring back in

burnt tokens and back

into the liquidity. And we

wanted to make it so that effectively the sole reason

why we've put so much of that token into the foundation is so

that it gets a big chunk of the yield off of it, mostly. So

there's lots of safety stuff around the reasons why we've done

that. And once again, it's a long-term play. We're looking at

it. That kind of setup will last for a very long time. it's

Yeah, Sam, I think that is so important because it really goes down to

the culture and the mindset,

I guess, of echo behind the scenes, implementing

those types of foundational structures, which

is obviously much better for the consumer, for the retailer, the

institutional investor who's coming into echo. And so I just really wanted

to highlight that because if you look at other platforms, they're

I always say this to like, um,

my colleagues or other investors and stuff. And it's like, you know, if

you want, if you want to like a quick buck, there's,

there's easier ways to, to do this than what we're doing, but

it's flashing the pan, right? It's, it's stuff which is going to be here

today, gone tomorrow. Um, and won't have the

kind of potential explosive growth, which

Yeah. You touched as well on before about that the

governance of where the year will be spent. Is

that right? And you'll give options. I know I just wanted to ask you

because there's been so much happening now in the space of institutions

and now, of course, governments buying into Bitcoin. So would

one of those options be buying Bitcoin to, I

Yeah, so one of the five baskets is exactly that.

It's treasury related.

It's a treasury related basket, basically. And one of those things could

be to gain other assets, for example,

which are yield producing. So you start getting this

snowball effect inside the foundation, where yield

from the ECHO token is used to purchase other cryptocurrency assets

or other assets, which are then also yield producing. Because it's

all staying inside of that foundation, right? So

the community has a real chance to build build the foundation out

into a real powerhouse on the treasury side. And

when that does happen, then suddenly all those other baskets have a lot

more power too, like in research and development or

in marketing or in philanthropy. So,

you know, it's all kind of theoretically like

It could be a huge play, though. If we've seen what's happened in other

companies, of course, Strategy is obviously the

leader in this space of building a Bitcoin treasury and a

lot of other companies are doing the same thing. So I think over time, it

could be a real game changer for Echo and

Yeah, I mean, we might at some point do Votes

which are, you know, we do a quarter where we

return a big chunk of the yield that quarter

to Echo token holders. You know, for example, that

could be something which we put up for vote, for example. Because

we do want the community to feel like they are part of the platform. And

that's kind of, we try to create it so it's not just marketing

spiel, but is actually systemic structure inside

Hey, just quickly, if you're ready to dive deeper into crypto and Bitcoin

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join us today. Now back to the episode. So Sam, for

trades at different levels, you've got Echo X and Echo Pro. So how

do those platforms or those portions differ within Echo? And

do you need to be an experienced person to come into Echo, or do you cater

Yeah, so Echo X and Echo Pro, first of all, they have

the same fee structure. So it's a purely utilitarian or

UI difference between the two. Echo X

is what would be traditionally considered a quick swap function. So

you type in, I wanna buy one Bitcoin and it will show that's

gonna cost. a hundred and whatever thousand, when it, whenever this

releases dollars, that is, and, um,

you press the button and it makes a swap for you. Easy done. And,

uh, that's echo X effectively. It's, uh, it

would be considered a very user friendly retail tool. Um,

still has lots of token pairs, et cetera, but just that kind of

UI functionality. And then Echo Pro is

more what you would be used to from other cryptocurrency exchanges, your

Krakens, your Coinbases, et cetera. And when I

say that, I mean, a good example is Coinbase Pro, for example, which

So tell me then, Sam, what would be the differences, I guess, or

the benefits of using Echo compared to some of the traditional platforms

Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things with Coinbase is

it's bloody expensive. First of

all, yeah. I mean,

they have a similar setup where they have a kind

of more retail friendly quick swappy type setup

but the fees on that can be crazy I mean I've seen I've seen 0.6 now

1% or something it's it's orders of magnitude more expensive basically coinbase

pro is good with

the order types and stuff but I mean this goes back to an architecture question

really which is a lot of these exchanges have been around

for a while now and they are

in the situation where they've had to they have to keep on bolting on

new features, but they're running old systems, right? Whereas

we're coming in now, basically scratch built with

the newest standards. And it's kind

of the difference between... I'll make the analogy with

the AI stuff, which is happening right now, where you're getting these big legacy

companies who are trying to find a way to make the AI

fit into their organization or you're getting

these AI native companies

come in and just spin the whole thing up because they don't have

any of like the problems associated with

trying to bolt a new technology into

So that's some of it, I would say. Well,

you touched on AI, Sam. I can't now just not talk about AI.

It is a hot topic. So tell me, are

you integrating any AI into Echo? And

if so, how would that benefit the consumer

Yeah, we are. We're looking

right now at doing direct

from or agentic order book and

what that is effectively is you can sit inside chat gbt you have a

plug-in into echo and you can just do

trading via your llm so

you can just say to chat gbt you know get me

Bitcoin at the best price in the next 24 hours and

it will go away via the plugin into Echo

and do that for you. So we're looking at stuff like that right now

because my gut feeling on it and it's interesting hearing

what some of the guys at Google and stuff are saying about how maybe

SaaS is dead or all this idea

of having and a user interface

that we're used to, and will everything

just be done via agents, where my agent talks

to Sam agent, talks to Matthew agent, and

they arrange some stuff between themselves and return

the answer to us, as opposed to having some kind of middle

platform which does some of this stuff. I

think we're a bit off from that still, so I'm not too nervous at this point

with what we're building out. And I

think there's still some advantage, particularly at a

certain institutional level where you want sight and touch on the thing.

But no, I think there's definitely a world where the

retail customer does their trading via LLM,

Yeah. Well, the headline now, Sam, is SAS is

dead. Yeah. Yeah. That's going to be the reel.

The headline reel. SAS is

dead. I'm in good company on that too. I mean, this is what a

lot of the Mac 7 guys are talking about right now.

I mean, I don't think Microsoft

But of course, this is the reason why you're in this space, Sam, because you are obviously

leading the way within the fintech space. You're

going to obviously be leading the way within AIs as well, within

Echo. This leads me to another question, though, because I know a

lot of people will be asking me, wow, because we've seen things on TikTok

or what have you of these AI bots. And these AI

bots somehow plug into a trading software and

can make you a bazillion dollars. Is that true? Because

you will know, because you've got a lot of experience in this space. Is that true? And

if not true, what is there out there where

literally there is an AI bot that can help with trading? Like I could

put $10,000 in it, it makes me 10% a day, for example.

Yeah, yeah. We've thought about... this

bot side, I mean, because really it's AI, but

it's sort of not, it's mostly, it's

just a cover on bots mostly. But

we've looked at this a lot. There's a

difference between what a

normal retail customer will have access to and what a large

institution is able to put together. I

mean, for example, we're looking, we're building out with a New York quant

fund right now, I think what a

market making matrix. And that has a

massive decision tree in almost

instantaneous speed for trading

effectively. And for us, we're using

it for market making so that we have stronger

internal swaps inside the Echo platform. But

you can see how quant funds and stuff would use the thing to just

make a ton of money. The problem with most of those systems

is they cost an absolute fortune and or you're

very latency dependent if they're high frequency, which is

why so many of these New York funds are like, you know, pay a fortune to

sit next to the you know, the exchange because,

you know, every millisecond counts. We obviously have

an advantage in actually being able to sit directly inside our

own exchange, so that's not a problem for us. But we're

certainly looking at some of that stuff. On the consumer side, yeah, we are

looking at agentic style bots where

they kind of, because we will do basic stuff, which

most platforms do where, you know, you can

set up grid trading bots and stuff like that. Basically

kind of plug and play type stuff. But we're also looking at building

kind of almost like personality type bots. so

what's your kind of that could be scary yeah yeah so so

it's like uh so it's like a trading style or like it includes some

of the risk profile of the user into the

into the bot so it won't you know we're

before you before you um put your funds into it you know

there'll be a risk profiling for the user on like what kind

So you as a user could come in and do a sort of a risk profile

on your own personality then the bot let's say is then built

Yeah so you're not going to get a situation where you know, all

Matthew does normally is buy Bitcoin and sit on it. And then it

comes in and, you know, high frequency trades at 10x

leverage shitcoins. You know, there's

a kind of... There's a difference. Yeah, there's a difference. Obviously, there's a difference.

And for us, it's, you know, we don't

want to We don't want to get in the way of what people want to do.

So we're Switzerland in terms of how people

want to trade. We just want to facilitate it, but we don't want to get people in sticky

Yeah. Sam, I want to just pivot for a second into DeFi because

you've got so much experience in this space, years and

years of being in the cryptocurrency industry. I

just want to know, what do you think is the main shift happening in the crypto DeFi

space? And what do you see happening, I guess, in

I think the hot stuff right now, I don't know if it's really

classified as DeFi, but the stablecoin stuff is big right now. Who's

On the institutional level, I mean, I think it's literally today, which JP

Morgan is just planted a flag with their new

stablecoin. Obviously, you've got USDC, got

USDT just got kicked out of the EU because of mica regulation.

So, Tether might be tumbling down after

that. There's... That's like breaking news.

Yeah. So, there's... There's lots

of different things that could happen. I think my gut feeling

on it is what will end up happening is most of

the stable coins right now, and I don't know if your users understand how

these companies make money. So

Tether, for example, what it does to make money is

it receives your dollar bills, your paper bills, and

it mints you, like a real world asset, it mints you a

stable coin, but it's still got all

of those paper dollars. And what it does with those paper

dollars is it buys stuff like T-bills, which are

an interest bearing instrument. So what they're doing effectively

is they're taking your money, making interest on it and giving you

no interest. They're just giving you the stable coin. A

stable coin. Yeah, which is why Tether last

year made more money than Goldman Sachs with

like 50 employees Wow. You

know what, Sam? That is the business model we need. And, you

know, you see those charts of kind of like, you know, revenue per

revenue per employee. And it's like 40 million dollars or

something insane. Wow. That's

incredible. That's incredible. But I think I think what

will end up happening is you'll get some stablecoin issuer who will come in

and hand the yield back to the stablecoin holder.

And as soon as someone does that, all of those other ones are dead in

the water, really. Unless they play along. Unless

they play along. Because it's very difficult to

turn around and say, you know, your

stablecoin is, at a smart contract level,

interest bearing. So it's hard to compete with that.

The interest would literally drop into your wallet just

by sitting on it, which is something which could

happen. So we'll see if

that comes along on the Stablecoin side. Also in DeFi big

at the moment is the RWA stuff. Obviously RWA is big

right now. There's a lot of play around that.

The problem most of them face, and where I think Echo has a

distinct advantage, is they're all doing little bits

of the puzzle. And really what's required

is for a platform to be custodian,

broker and exchange. You need the end-to-end suite

so that you can hold the real world asset and trust it to hold the real world asset.

You can buy and sell real world assets. You have a

tokenization engine to turn them into tokens and

also an exchange to list those tokens on and

you need that full sweep otherwise you end up with kind of someone

who just does custody or someone who is waiting for people to

come to them with assets to put on the exchange or you

know they just do the traditional brokerage piece and

for me that's where Echo starts melding

two worlds and starts being both a

traditional platform and a

fintech blockchain platform. And for me, that's the kind of

long-term goal for Echo, that it becomes this bridging piece

Yeah. Sam, you touched on JP Morgan, I

think you just said, JP Morgan and their stablecoin. There's

obviously something that's happening in this space because of course the regulations have

changed in the US. It now enables main

banking institutions to custody Bitcoin,

especially, and probably cryptocurrency. And

what we're going to see, I think, I'm led to believe, is that those

institutions may merge into becoming exchanges

themselves. And on the same token, we've seen exchanges

who may end up getting banking licenses. So

they'll start sort of merging together. And I think mainly because the

banks now see that the crypto space is so huge, there's a lot of people

making money, like you mentioned about Tether, that much money they're making.

Do you think then, is that sort of something that you foresee in

the forward plans of Echo? Does something like that come into play?

Maybe they get a banking license or something like that? And if not, then

Yeah, sure. So actually, pretty soon on the roadmap, probably

before the new year, we have a partnership with a

banking provider, an EMI, who allow

you to have a virtual will allow us to have virtual eye bands attached to

user accounts. So you can do direct bank transfer directly

into the echo platform, and then you can swap into stable coin

directly. Um, that's a big deal because one of the

main problems that people face when dealing with

the ramping issue, um, is that your bank blocks

payments, uh, to cryptocurrency exchanges,

for example. But the nice thing about this setup is they don't see that they

see a bank to bank. transfer. They see

transfer from chase

to RBS and

that doesn't raise the flags, which is

an experience big plus. But

yes, I agree that I think the

all-in-one ecosystem thing is definitely the vision to

have users come in and not have to leave,

that they can do all of the various things

they want to do inside the platform is definitely

Now I just want to touch on security just in Echo itself, because

I know a lot of people are thinking about, if I'm going to be putting money into the

Echo platform, what sort of security measures do they have? And I think even

more so, Sam, what sort of experience do you bring to the table? What is

Sure. So Echo uses what are called NPC

shard wallets or multi-party computation wallets and

the way they work is normally of a wallet you have a key obviously

and NPC wallets cut the key into lots of different pieces

and then are reformed at the moment when

you sign in in the centralized platform. This

is used by, and our system is

Fireblocks effectively. And that's the system which

is used by people like JP Morgan and these other big players to

hold their assets. And the MPC sharding way

of doing wallet security, touch wood, but hasn't been

breached yet. So it's a very secure way

to hold cryptocurrency assets. On

that note, though, I would say that most breaches

which happen on exchange are not technical breaches. They

would be considered social breaches. And

that's something which, and I make the example of a

bank vault, right, where You know, if

you want to rob a bank, you don't go down to the vault and try

and drill through the vault door. It's

just too much work. What you would do is you make friends with the

And that's the difference between a technical breach and a

social breach, right? Where a lot of these hackers

and stuff, they try and get in with stupid stuff like email

phishing or, you know, I've heard crazy stuff where

like cleaners and stuff, or people impersonate

cleaners coming with USB sticks into your office and

Yeah, so stuff like that, Sam. So how do you combat, you

know, as the guy in charge of Echo, how do

Yeah, it's a bit nerve-wracking when you see, you know, the French cryptocurrency

exchange owners, you know, that their family's getting dragged into vans and

stuff. Exactly. But, I

mean, that's one of the benefits of living on the Isle of Man, I suppose, that it's, you

know, basically the safest country on earth, apart from Monaco. So

I think for me the most important thing is that there's

limits in what are called signing wallets for

treasury funds, for example, or the moving of large assets

inside of the Echo platform. It's

a very limited amount of people who have signing rights

basically for us. It's not something which is

handed out. I think in our organization, there's five people who

can sign those kinds of transactions and

you need three or five to have something go through.

And then Sam, just touching on your

Um, yeah, so I, um, of serial

Uh, I, um, we need people

I found it. I found in my first company at 21. Um,

and, uh, that was a research and development company, uh, which.

basically invented new

products which we then patented and sold to large

corporations. I did that for a number of years and

then I had a very

big deal on the table with that company. for

a nine figure sum. And it took

18 months in the boardroom, back and forth with

that baby. And eventually it all fell through, no

budget because of COVID. I got

a bit burnt out

on doing that stuff. I thought, you know what, I'll go and do something else. And I'd

always been playing with cryptocurrency kind of personally

in the background and thought you know what I think I can do I'll

give it I'll give a shot at doing a better job at this and and some

Yeah, and you're also the youngest board member on

Yeah, it's a bit bigger than just crypto actually. So, there's

a Department of Enterprise for the Isle of Man

government and I sit on what's called the Digital Isle of Man board.

So, I'm a board member effectively for technology. on

the Isle of Man. And there's not official seats

for this kind of thing, but I'm sort of in the fintech crypto

kind of seat for that, I suppose you'd say, unofficially. But

yeah, I'm the youngest board member to sit on

Amazing. Well, Sam, thank you so much. I just want to just wrap

this up. We're just asking you, how can people, because obviously Echo's doing

some incredible things in this space, and I really think people should jump in and

at least have a look at the offerings there. Maybe take

advantage of the tokens offerings as well. How

Sure. So go to www.echo.im. Um,

that will, you can, is KYC is required, uh, to,

to get in. Uh, but it's, you know, I like to think it's a

very, we've, we've spent a lot of time trying to get that as smooth as

possible. Um, we do have a thing called magic links as

well, which is, which is quite interesting. So we were passwordless. Um,

so a password is not required to log into Echo. Um,

which is, which is quite cool too. That's another security feature really where

we, um. You know, we, one of the main reasons

for breach on the consumer side is people losing or forgetting passwords.

Um, so we use magic links instead just to say

Uh, and, um, yeah,

at the moment we, we have a little bit of echo

token left in the final bit of.

pre-sale, basically, before it goes live on

exchange as a trading pair. So do take

Yeah, if you sign up, you can

Oh, excellent. OK, well, we'll leave links to all those in the show notes as well. And

just say, Sam Dorough from Echo, thank you

so much for joining us on Crypto Collective. Thanks, Matthew. Cheers. Thanks

for tuning in to Crypto Collective. If you've enjoyed this episode, the

best way to show your support is to leave a five-star review on

Apple Podcast or Spotify. And make sure to subscribe to

the YouTube channel so you don't miss an episode. You can also find

more of me at I'm Matthew Fraser on