This is Women Road warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

From the corporate office to the cab of a truck, they're here to inspire and empower women in all professions.

So gear down, sit back and enjoy.

Welcome.

We're an award winning show dedicated to empowering women in every profession through inspiring stories and expert insights.

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I'm Shelley and Kathy's on assignment.

Women make a tremendous contribution to this world in the workplace, as caregivers and as mothers raising our future generations.

Too often our contributions are overlooked unless uncompensated and underappreciated.

Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr. Doreen McCauley have researched this extensively and want what we do to be recognized.

They're the authors of our Invisible work, an exploration of what women do and how the lack of recognition suppresses and disempowers women.

They're award winning scholars at the University of South Florida.

Both of these ladies have a column in Psychology Today and they're on a mission to stop this invalidation of women.

We have both of them on our show today to discuss this.

Welcome, Dr. Wells and Dr. McCully.

Thank you for being on the show.

And thank you, Shelly.

We appreciate the platform to really bring voice and value to this.

We love what we're doing.

We're all about empowering women and certainly your message here is doing that.

I thought before we could launch this conversation that's so important, we could cover both of your backgrounds and what motivates you to pursue this valuable topic.

Yes, absolutely.

I'll start it, then I'll pass it to Doreen.

Yeah, I'll start with, you know, 2016, I think, was my awakening when I first saw it.

I had a student in our graduate program.

Our students work three days a week for one of our partners so they can get real world experience.

And she came into my office visibly upset and just talked about some of the.

She called them microaggressions, I might say they were macro aggressions that she was facing in the workplace and she didn't feel seen.

And we sat there, we cried together, we had great conversations and.

But I saw her and what we did after hearing her and hearing the stories and the experiences that she was having, you know, we went back to that organization, we went to their HR department.

We created some training, some learning and development around these things, and we made it visible to everyone, not just her.

And so that's why we in the book, specifically our invisible work.

That's why we have parentheses around the.

In part because it was visible to this student, but it had been invisible to the others.

And so that was 2016.

But it made me reflect because, you know, I was raised by a single mother.

She's a Latina single mother, and she's personally deaf.

And so I started to reflect.

I'm like, wow, this isn't just the visibility and the invisibility.

Oh, how many things was she been doing that I didn't even recognize until.

Until I was a mother and doing that things or until I was in the workplace and facing some of these things?

And so we.

We started to write, you know, and then I'm going to fast forward a little bit to 2020, when Doreen and I had to work more closely together.

And at that time in 2020, obviously a pandemic had hit this world, but Doreen and I were working on a new class, and so we got to talking about some of these things, and I know a lot of her, and I'll let her talk about some of her research and identities and roles in the workplace.

And so we started to bond on some of those things.

And also what we were doing that was invisible, servicing our students at that time, you know, a lot of emotional labor that we were.

That we were doing as faculty members, serving our students.

And so that brings us to 2020.

So then I'll pass it to do.

Okay, fantastic.

Thank you.

So, yeah, so I guess when I first was kind of approached by Janelle, we were working on a few things, and she shared the idea that she had for this book, which I absolutely fell in love with.

And it really resonated with me because of my work as a researcher.

So, you know, when I was researching during my PhD program, we talked a lot about identity and how does, you know, an individual kind of show up in the workplace?

So that's something that's been really important to me.

And one of the things that always struggled with was, you know, why when, you know, women decided to join the workplace or in their struggle to join the workplace over the years, has it been that they've had to follow this very masculine, you know, drug path, Right.

And so this path that.

That men had been kind of following.

And so to me, it was like, wait, but we're.

We're not.

We are.

We're different in that, and we have different responsibilities.

And in our, you know, quest to do that, you know, all of these other things that we were doing, we just kind of started to IGN more.

And.

And then they.

So they stayed invisible.

Right.

And so that's.

To me, when, when Janelle approached me about this idea, it clicked completely for me, you know, and because actually one of my colleagues did some really great research on looking at, you know, what was keeping individuals from the C suite in.

It was in the accounting profession specifically.

And a lot of it was around choice, right around the.

The woman's choice to want to do something different.

So that to me was like, well, wait a second, maybe we have to redefine and what that really means and why do we have to have this kind of one idea of what that success is?

So it really kind of aligned in with what Janelle wanted to explore around kind of all of these things that we do.

And then the other piece of it as well, as Janelle had alluded to, is that we're both definitely people who go above and beyond in the workplace, but we have noticed over our careers that a lot of times that is doing the work that is seen to be maybe be a role that a female should be taking.

You know, I have been asked in, told that because of my gender that I should be the one who takes the notes and I need to be the one who organizes the parties.

And I.

And so, you know, having had that experience, you know, there's this need for us to be talking about how that's not right.

Right.

And how can we, you know, move past that and start to put some light on it.

So, so yeah, so that's kind of how we came together on this book.

And really the two of us have this great passion to be able, allow people to be appreciated for what they do and then maybe finding ways to balance out the work that we all do.

Amen to that.

Bravo for this.

Because it's not being discussed enough.

And it's true, it does seem like women do the jobs of a whole lot more people.

We have to clone ourselves and we don't get noticed and appreciated as often as we should.

Why do you think the work of women is still invisible in the 21st century?

Ooh, isn't that the million trillion dollar question?

Maybe.

Shelley?

Yeah, I would say, you know, there's always going to be an invisible economy.

We know that.

Like there is always a.

We're always going to need volunteers, whether it's your association, your church group, the schools.

However, what has happened and what has been happening with higher level dual earning households, now that has changed, technology has changed, women are going to school and colleges and graduate at a higher rate than ever before.

So those things have shifted.

Yet women still doing 75% of the domestic in care labor at home.

That hasn't shifted with the times?

Oh, it's true.

A woman gets done with work during the day, then she's got a whole lot more work before she goes to bed that night.

Yes.

On average the, what the stats are saying is four and a half hours more.

Wow.

I mean, and that adds up.

And then the weekend comes and if they want to spend quality time with their children and their husband and, or their significant other, you're going to be exhausted.

I mean, when do you have time for sleep and your own self care, you know?

Absolutely.

So why do you think all of this is?

Is it because women have been reluctant to speak up or they just are taught this is your lock in life?

You know, it's interesting because I think it has a lot to do with the society that we, we belong to.

Right.

And so there isn't a lot of value put on the, you know, being in the home or taking care of, you know, our, our young or doing those types of things.

And even if we just look at the way that the salary disbursement of different positions in society are.

Right.

And so because of that there has been want in our, I guess, I, I think in our want to be successful.

We're, we're looking to those positions, we're looking to jobs and we put value on them just by the actual paycheck they're getting or the salary they're getting or whatever the case.

And so because of that, I think that there's, you know, it's.

That's part of it, right?

So that's part of it.

So what, what people are aspiring to are these positions that are going to maybe give them more money, if that's what we're really thinking as we define success.

Success.

But at the same time, I do think you're, you're correct in that women are still, or young ladies and girls are developed to still have this much more of a caring responsibility for others or to be concerned about the, you know, feelings of others even, you know, if you look at the toys that we have, right, you have, you know, a typical boy's toy, maybe two trucks that can slam together and no one's going to get hurt.

Whereas a typical girl's toy may be a doll or you know, some type of form that if it hits together, then there's emotions involved.

And so from a very young age we start to kind of understand things from a very emotional point of view.

So we are concerned with that more.

Right.

And so because of that, there is this, I think, this weight that gets put on women still, that it's their responsibility.

Yeah.

Well, when you think about it, traditionally, when you're talking about money making and so forth, that was always outside the home.

And when women didn't really work outside the home, they didn't get reimbursed financially.

Exactly.

For caregiving and for raising children.

I remember my father saying, she who rocks the cradle rules the world.

I mean, he had the most utmost respect for motherhood.

And it's true.

I mean, we're shaping entire generations, and it's an important role.

Caregiving, motherhood.

All of the above.

And even if it isn't necessarily a paid position, and it shouldn't be based on money, the importance of something, it should be recognized for what it is, because it's a tough job.

We have to be psychics.

We have to have eyes in the backs of our heads.

You know, you're always trying to anticipate what your kid's going to be doing, or if you're taking, say, care of an elderly parent or a family member, that's a whole new can of worms that people are dealing with a lot today.

And it's usually that falls on the women, too, you know.

And Shelly, you're making a really good point there, because I think there's also something around because, you know, like, it shouldn't be money.

It shouldn't be.

There's this kind of another piece of this puzzle to me is this concept of like the zero sum game, right.

Is so that if.

If you get something, I must be losing something.

Right.

And we don't think of how.

Well, no, how can we be creating something together, Right.

And so, you know, when I think, you know, if you think of the very liberal feminist approach to trying to get kind of significance of women in society, it was very much that we needed to enter the workplace because that's where money was and that was where there was power.

That was the significance.

And so when you have that, though.

But it was like, well, if someone gets in and someone else tries to get in, you're taking it away from that someone who already got in.

Right.

So there's only like one seat at the table for a woman, for example.

Right.

And so, you know, it created this competition between us as well.

And then that zero sum kind of then creates an almost a.

An animosity amongst women as well.

So I think that plays a part in it as well, because I Do feel like, you know, there is this strife between, you know, the.

Because one of the things that we struggled with when we were actually doing our original surveys was we were asking for people, you know, what?

Work is invisible.

And then some of the people that we were asking to be involved, they're like, well, I'm a stay at home mom, so I don't really work.

And so we had to really change our phrasing around that because it was this idea that there's a strife between those that work and those that don't.

You know what I mean?

And there's a value difference to that, and that's what we have to get past.

I don't know if you knew this, but I think it was back in the 1940s in Washington, D.C. a lot of federal workers there were women and men working.

If they got married, one of them had to quit because both of them could not be on a federal payroll.

And of course, usually it was a woman.

So a lot of people cohabitated at that point because they didn't want to lose that extra income.

They wanted to work.

And why should a woman have to say, okay, I'm done?

And Shelley, that's also why in the book.

And it was great, this revelation for us as a stay at home mom pointed out, I was like, wait, we want to make sure we have a shared vocabulary, you know, and so that's why we define invisible work in there, you know, as like any work emotionally, mentally, physically done for someone else without acknowledgment of the time, effort, or contribution.

So again, here we're not saying the compensation, but how do you acknowledge our work?

Sometimes I need that work.

It could be a simple thank you, right?

Giving me the bandwidth, the space to be able to do all these, all the work that needs to be done.

Stay tuned for more of women road warriors coming up.

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Welcome back to Women Road.

Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tuccaro.

If you're enjoying this informative episode of Women Road Warriors, I wanted to mention Kathy and I explore all kinds of topics that will power you on the road to success.

We feature a lot of expert interviews, plus we feature celebrities and women who've been trailblazers.

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We want to help as many women as possible.

Women really do power the world in the workplace, at home, and as caregivers shaping the next generation.

Yet too often their work goes unseen, uncompensated, underappreciated and unacknowledged.

Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr. Doreen McCully, award winning scholars at the University of South Florida and columnists for Psychology Today have dug deep into this issue in their book, Our Invisible Work.

Through research and personal stories, they shine a light on the hidden labor like organizing, caretaking and emotional support that keeps workplaces and homes running but rarely gets recognized.

They're on a mission to bring this vital, undervalued work out of the shadows and into the spotlight where it belongs.

Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen it seems like for years the importance of the roles women play have been so under acknowledged and maybe even demeaned.

Well, for instance, the term housewife.

Since when is a woman married to a house?

They're not.

Mm.

I mean, that seems kind of demeaning, doesn't it?

Oh, absolutely.

And there's a lot of work that goes into managing a home, planning, budgeting, scheduling.

It's probably a multitude of tasks that if you really break it down, it's a job and it's non stop.

It's, it's true.

You know, it's one of those things that I've had several students over the years who have come Back after having had children.

And so they're, you know, maybe they're up, upskilling a little bit.

And then they're going into the workplace and they're worried about it and how, and it's, it's been this interesting, you know, exercise to work with them, to kind of show them the skills that they've developed when they do it.

And how do you put that into, you know, you know, refer, you know, resume language because, you know, and when you talk to them and you say, okay, well, you, you organize this schedule and then you've, you know, you've, you're the one who kind of takes care of all the, you know, arrangements for things or, or let's say that you to, you know, have five or six depending on how many kids are in your household along with yourself and your spouse that you're trying to manage.

You know, all of these, you know, managing skills, project management skills, time management skills that they have and that, so they don't realize.

And so I, I tell you this because I think it is really, you know, if we look at the skills required, the effort required, the time, all of that.

It is, it is like a full time, well, it is a full time job.

It is.

And, and the skills are really important because you're having to do all of these things actually transitions well into the workplace because you have to be a negotiator, you have to be a manager, you have to be a diplomat, you have to be a planner.

All of these are definite skills.

And a lot of times, if women opt to leave the workplace to raise a family and they're penalized when they come back in, it's kind of like, well, what have you been doing for the past 15 years or whatever it is, you know?

Absolutely.

Oh, yes, Shelley.

And they talk about that being the motherhood tax, but yet it's the fatherhood promotion, you know, because it'll say that women, we have a 4% decrease in our pay and men will get a 6% increase for each child.

Yeah.

And women, the stats are they have less saved for retirement than men.

So.

Wow.

It puts women in a very precarious spot.

And I do think our society devalues the roles that women play and they really do need to be recognized, which is why your book is so important.

What are some of the things that you folks cover in your book too?

Create the awareness and maybe the appreciation to really validate women to finally bring this out into the sunshine and say, you know, hey, women need this recognition.

Yeah.

One of them I think that might not be as visible is the emotional labor.

You know, Doreen had even talked about that when she was talking about this nurturing mindset.

There's a lot of times we're expected, just as women in general, to calm down, nurture, Right.

See those emotions, help others regulate their emotions.

And so we do.

So we wanted to make sure we have an entire chapter that's just dedicated to emotional labor in there.

Now, first we have to unpack it.

What is emotional labor?

What does that mean?

Yeah.

What is that?

Yeah.

Dorian, do you want to give a definition of emotional labor?

Sure.

Absolutely.

So emotional labor is the energy expended to be able to control one's emotions in a given situation.

So if you think about, you know, you talked about, you know, sometimes mothers have to be the negotiator, or, you know, wives have to be the negotiator.

And in that situation, you may want to be very angry, right.

Because you're negotiating over something that you think maybe you shouldn't be negotiating over.

Right.

And so there may be this, but having to keep your calm.

Right.

And to kind of express an emotion that's going to allow the situation to move.

Move forward the way that it needs to, not necessarily that one that you're revealing inside.

So that suppression is an emotional labor.

So if I'm not able to kind of express that exact emotion that I want in a given situation, there is a exhaustion that comes from that, and that's when we talk about our emotional labor.

Just as an example, if people haven't heard of the term that we use to kind of help people relate to it is this.

Think of someone who would be maybe at the front desk of a hot.

You know, they have an irate client that's come in.

Maybe they're very angry about something, and they, you know, something has just happened and they're yelling at the person.

And the person can't just yell back, Right.

They need to, especially in a customer service situation, they need to be calm, and they need to be able to respond in a way that will allow the situation to diffuse and then be able to carry forward.

Well, that idea is that emotional labor.

So when you take on that emotion, but you can't express it, it.

So, you know, one of the ways, as a mother, this may happen is that, you know, when your child gets hurt, right.

You may want to hurt the person back who hurt them.

Right.

But that's not going to help the child learn, and that's not going to be, you know, something that's Beneficial for the situation.

So you have to kind of contain that.

But that containment is work, right.

And it takes a lot for you to do it.

And so why we talk about it, there's a lot of reasons why we talk about.

One of the main things in it is that we forget that emotional labor is hard work.

Oh, heck, yes.

It's exhausting.

Right.

And we don't give it.

So.

So when you're exhausted at the end of the day, when you said.

Because you had mentioned.

And it's so true.

By the time the weekend comes, I'm exhausted, I, you know.

Yes, I know maybe you'd love to spend time with me, but I am, I am spent.

But a lot of that being spent comes from this idea that, you know, I've had to kind of control the way that I'm reacting all week, right.

And so now that I have, I have to take the time to decompress from that.

I need to realize that's a stress on me and my body and I.

I need to rest.

Rest is so essential.

Everybody needs it.

Absolutely.

Yes, absolutely.

And I think women today probably get less rest than they used to.

And of course, with our interconnected world, so often the office is contacting you at 9 o' clock at night, texting you, and it's just non stop.

You're too.

You have no time for yourself, let alone the people you want to be around, which is the quality of life you need to have.

What are some of the main points of your book that address some of this and how we can make a change?

Well, Shelley, I want, I want to point out one more chapter too, before we get to that question, because much as emotional intelligence or emotional labor is also this idea of our intersecting roles and identity, you know, because sometimes, you know, think about being in the workplace and maybe it's before you've had a child, but you've just informed the workplace, you know, that you are.

And you're gonna be taking parental leave.

Sometimes people will be trying to say, oh, it's only one identity or one role.

That's not true.

We have to represent.

It's like a prism, right?

You see multiple colors, you see multiple angles, and how do all of those interact?

And I think sometimes we like to say, oh, just because I'm a woman, I'm being asked this or no, is this because I'm a mother, I'm being asked?

Or it's because of both.

They're all of the above, you know, And I think sometimes we try to separate them, which then does Minimize just the weight and the gravity of the expectations as well.

Absolutely.

Well said.

So then, Shelley, to get to your other question about, you know, kind of how.

What are some of the points that we wanted to kind of bring forward and really what we're hoping this book serves as, as a beginning of a conversation for a lot of people, because one of the things that we, you know, even from our own experience and then from, you know, speaking with others and kind of understanding this more, we realize that oftentimes things get taken on as roles and responsibilities by default.

Right.

But if we have a conversation around, what does this actually look like and do I need help or do I really need to be the person that takes on this responsibility?

Once we start those conversations, we can actually then make a change.

And so just as an example, you know, I think one of the things that happened to a lot of families during COVID right, Was this realization by everyone in the family kind of who's doing what, right?

And.

And who's responsible for what.

And when you had time where you were probably maybe spending a lot more time under the same roof as people, you start to see what people do on a regular basis and having that, you know, conversation and saying, okay, well, why are these responsibilities falling on me?

Right.

Then you can start to see, okay, well, can we be giving some of these tasks away?

And so I'll use a personal story if you'll.

You feel, bear with me, shall we?

Sure.

This is a time where my husband and we had some friends and we were chatting and.

And he had just been, you know, through the conversation of the night, had talked about how he had done some laundry, and then he had done some dishes and he would done some vacuuming.

But it was just different stories that kind of, you know, weaved in through the evening.

And then, so someone kind of brought this all together, and they said, well, wait a second, you know, and my husband's name.

And they said, if you do the laundry and the dishes and you do the.

The vacuuming, well, what does Doreen do around the house?

Right?

Or what does Doreen do?

Right?

And so, and so his response was not one I liked, right?

Because he was, like, not quite sure.

And just kind of joke because we had, you know, just kind of laughing or whatever.

We were kind of amongst friends, right?

So, but this.

This, this.

This hit me.

And so I had a conversation with him later.

It's like, you know, we.

We need to talk about this, right?

And so we did, right?

And I wrote out, you know, well, I make sure the appointments are done and I, I make sure that the birthday parties are organized and I make sure that the gifts are done and I make sure that there's groceries to be able to cook with, to get dirty dishes.

And I'm.

And so I was going through this list and it was interesting because it really was just a moment of levity amongst friends.

It wasn't anything, you know, malicious in any way, but it was an opening for me to have this really difficult conversation of saying, you know what?

I can't do my full time job and do all of this without help.

Right.

And so when, when we start to look at it and we actually start to give ourselves credit for what we do.

Because I think sometimes as women, we think that we just have to do it.

Right?

Yes.

Yeah.

I am the one who's responsible for making sure that my daughter has shoes that fits her or that, you know, the child has a present to bring to the party.

Well, why is it my responsibility?

Right.

And so that's.

We.

We ask these questions throughout it and then we know we're hoping that there's a few aha.

Moments of what this invisible work actually looks like.

And so, yeah, so that's kind of one of the.

I'd say it's probably like for me, if I think about what do we hope this book will really help people with, it's to help them see themselves in the stories that can help them bring visibility to it or opens those spaces for conversation to be able to share it out a little bit.

Conversation's important and it can lead to change.

This is empowering and I think it's going to validate for women themselves.

Hey, I really do provide one heck of a role here.

Many, many of them.

And maybe I shouldn't have to clone myself.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Asking, you know, asking for that assistance or saying that, you know, you know, here's what we have to do over the next two weeks or a week or whatever the case, however you plan out and say, okay, who's taking what right?

And don't make assumptions that it's all on you.

Right.

And by doing that, we can, we can maybe start to see some change.

And then in the workplace as well.

I want to make sure that we're talking about the roles that happen in the workplace as well.

And it's really interesting stories that we had.

And some of them go back to this intersectionality that Janelle talked about.

And one of them was around being in being someone who spoke two languages and this idea that, you know, there was you know, a woman who was asked to always be the interpreter, if you will, but it was never, ever acknowledged that while she was interpreting or having to stay up late to, you know, to transcribe things into different languages, that that was taking away from her role.

Right.

And so it was like she.

She was being asked to do something that was going to help benefit the company and help benefit the organization, but it was outside of the job description, but it was necessary, so then there was no value put on it.

Right.

And so those kinds of things, again, just have those conversations.

So basically, get to your rightful place in the workplace.

This is empowering to women to say, wait a minute, let's have a conversation here.

I'm an interpreter.

I speak more than one language.

That's a job in and of itself and a very, very important one, because if you can't communicate, you got nothing going on.

You have to be able to have someone who can convey that information.

It empowers women to get the proper compensation because a lot of times they don't ask.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's interesting because a lot of research that over the last 20 years or so, when we look at things that have changed in the workplace, one of the big ones is this value placed on culture.

Right.

That people need to.

And want to go to a place that's enjoyable for them, that they can feel like they belong.

And a lot of the work that goes into making a place really fun, making it so that people feel valued, is the things that we don't necessarily have written in a job description.

Yeah.

You know, whether it's mentoring, whether it's, you know, hosting that, you know, luncheon to make sure you recognize people for special events, all of these things.

And what we.

We found through the.

The work was that often these responsibilities that are essential to the bottom line of an organization because we know culture is important.

They're.

They're not being compensated and they're being put on to.

To women in the workplace.

And women do it without questioning it, where I think a man might say, hey, wait a minute, that's not part of my job.

Can we have a conversation here?

Right.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So in a lot of ways, I think maybe women are taught you just take on more because that's who you are, and just don't say anything about it.

Just do it.

Right.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for.

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Welcome back to Women Road.

Warriors with Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

Let's talk about something too often overlooked, the invisible work women do every day.

From managing households to raising children to carrying the emotional load at work, these critical contributions keep everything moving.

Yet they're not always recognized or rewarded.

Women do many things that are tremendously important, like caretaking and nurturing that often never even get a simple thank you.

Yet these are essential roles that shape generations.

Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr. Doreen McCullough, both University of South Florida scholars and Psychology Today columnists, are changing that with their book Our Invisible Work.

They uncover how this hidden labor drains women's time and energy and why it's about time to value every contribution women make.

They hope their book will reinforce to women the valuable roles they do play and help them to not be afraid to ask for help when they need it.

Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen, your book opens up a new perspective for everybody.

I would think this is an important book for both men and women.

It's an eye opener.

Absolutely.

You know, it was interesting.

I had an uncle that read the book and it was interesting.

His response was, you know, after I read it, I sat back and I thought to myself, wow, I have two children in their 20s and I don't actually know how that happened.

And it realized that, you know what, maybe my wife did a lot more than I thought.

And it was, it was brilliant because it was someone I didn't think would res.

The message would resonate with.

But he really took on this sense of like, awakening, awe, whatever you want to call it, of, oh, my goodness.

I, I have been having a lot of things done around me to Give me this family to provide for this family.

And it was really a beautiful, beautiful situation, Shelley.

I love it.

So it's an awakening.

I like this.

That's a good way to describe it because, you know, I think human beings have a tendency to do out of sight, out of mind.

And, hey, it just got done.

I don't know how, but it did, you know, and that devalues how it was accomplished.

Cause there's a lot of work for that end result.

And especially if you're raising kids.

Oh, my.

Lots of twists, twists and turns along the way.

And it's not an easy road at all.

And the same in a company, all the things that have to be done, there's somebody who's doing that, who you don't see.

And it's more than just what the man behind the curtain with Oz.

And Oz actually wasn't who we thought Oz was anyway.

It's people, like women, who are doing all of these very important tasks to make the world go round.

I love what you're doing.

Where can people find your book?

Absolutely, Shelley.

And.

And I think one more point at where to find it, Right?

First and foremost, Ingramsburg is number one.

And then Amazon as well.

If you go even to our website, www.wellsquest.com, people can find those two links there on our invisible work.

And I think one thing to add, that is why we named it and we titled it our.

Because each and every individual has some type of work that they're doing.

Right, that others might not know and be visible to us.

It was an invitation into this conversation.

It is.

And it's an awakening for women, too, you know, because they just do things, I think, out of a force of habit and really don't think about what they're doing.

This gives them a chance to sit back and say, you know, now I'm pretty cool.

What I'm doing is pretty amazing.

And that validation has to be a positive outcome.

If you feel better about yourself, you're going to do it better, you're going to feel good, and maybe you're going to step up and say, you know, I need help here, because we're terrible as women for asking for help.

And, you know, the other thing, too, Shelley, if I can add to that, is that we're terrible at acknowledging it in others as well.

Right?

So, you know, if I could call, you know, call in, you're here, listeners, you know, to go out in the next week and find one, you know, maybe it's another woman or just one person that they know they're doing something that's really not getting recognized and acknowledge that so that we can help lift one another up when we're doing this as well.

So it's not just about.

Because we do.

We have to examine what we're doing and we have to give ourselves a little bit of, you know, room to.

To do a little less, you know, as well.

But.

But we also need to.

To help each other with this, you know, getting to this place where we're not having to feel like we have to be superheroes to get things done.

All of us are always looking for our cape, and we're human beings, after all, and we have to be able to take a step back and ask for help and, yes, acknowledge others, you know, just walk up and say, hey, you know, I think you're pretty incredible.

What you're doing is just massively awesome.

And somebody might be taken aback and say, I really hadn't thought about it, you know?

Absolutely.

What is your book the title again?

It's Our Invisible Work, correct?

Yes.

And where can people find it again, in case people didn't write that down?

Yes, absolutely.

I'd first go to the website ww.wellsquest.

so that's W E L L S S Q U E-S-T.com and there's a website there.

Our Invisible Work is under there.

Or if you look on Amazon or on IngramSparks, you can find.

It's called Our Invisible Work.

How everyone everywhere experiences it every day.

This is really important.

I love the conversation you've opened up here.

Do you have a couple nuggets for ladies who are listening?

Maybe a way for them to not be invisible?

Yes.

I'd first start with.

Think back to.

Sometimes we start with our roles and our identities.

Right.

What might they be?

And so we do this exercise in this tool of first just having an awareness of that.

Because again, Shelly, as you said, we just do things out of a habit.

Okay.

We need to organize.

We've organized.

Right.

We need to problem solve.

We problem.

We went and got the list.

It's done.

And so sometimes thinking about write those things down, what do you wholeheartedly identify with?

Maybe it's being that, you know, I do want to help him be that volunteer at my church or at my children's school.

Right.

I am the social planner.

That's all right.

Embrace all those roles and identities that you embrace.

Write those down and listen, there might be 10, there might be 20 of them.

Okay, maybe it is.

I'm daughter.

I highly identify as a daughter Right.

Or this granddaughter.

Because every Sunday I call my granddaddy to say hello, you know, and have a 20 minute conversation.

So write down first those roles and identities that are truly meaningful to you.

Right.

And then from there, are there any, are there anything that rolls up into those roles and identities that maybe someone isn't recognizing the amount of work that you've been doing for them?

Right.

Maybe you are the social coordinator at work and I love being that.

But gosh, for 10 years now, no one else remembers to get the birthday cards or get them signed.

And I'm constantly, now, now I, I feel like a nag and people are feeling that.

Right.

So that would be a task.

Okay.

That's being associated to something I highly identify with.

But then also think about the third step would be how do you want to be acknowledged for that?

Maybe it's a simple thank you.

Maybe it is someone else taking over the work or just acknowledging the work that's being done.

I love this.

Definitely food for thought in things that women need to do.

Because if we don't empower ourselves, we aren't going to empower other women either.

This is wonderful what both of you are doing with this book and I really appreciate you being on the show.

Well, thank you very much for giving us the space to have the conversation.

So we appreciate that as well.

Very much so.

This is a message that definitely needs to be talked about and conveyed to everybody.

That's how change is made and starting conversations and actively pursuing that kind of change.

Thank you so very much.

We appreciate you having us and this is wonderful to have a forum.

Thanks.

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you for sharing with our listeners.

We hope you've enjoyed this latest episode.

And if you want to hear more episodes of Women Road warriors or learn more about our show, be sure to check out womenroadwarriors.com and please follow us on social media.

And don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on our website.

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There are a series of podcasts from different podcasters.

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Thanks for listening.

You've been listening to Women Road warriors.

With Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.

If you want to be a guest on the show or have a topic.

Or feedback, email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.