1 00:00:06,930 --> 00:00:09,360 Matt Edmundson: Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast with 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,580 me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 3 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:15,900 The E-Commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce wow. 4 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:18,990 To your customers and to help us do just that. 5 00:00:19,290 --> 00:00:23,460 I'm chatting today with Christian Simovic from Honey Badger 6 00:00:23,490 --> 00:00:25,560 Marketing in the Land Down under. 7 00:00:25,620 --> 00:00:26,160 Oh yes. 8 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,939 We're gonna talk about how to create a frothing at the mouth 9 00:00:29,939 --> 00:00:34,339 email list with plain text emails and if that title doesn't intrigue 10 00:00:34,339 --> 00:00:36,379 you, I don't know what will. 11 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:40,879 But before Christian and I jump into that conversation, let me suggest a few other 12 00:00:40,879 --> 00:00:46,070 podcasts that I also think you'll enjoy listening to, cuz we have loads of them. 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,400 Now Christian, on the website, we've got a lot. 14 00:00:49,610 --> 00:00:56,000 Uh, so check out why everything you know about email marketing could be wrong.. 15 00:00:56,450 --> 00:00:59,380 It's one of my favorite titles ever, Uh, with Gabby Rapone. 16 00:00:59,395 --> 00:01:00,650 She was an absolute legend. 17 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:01,220 Love Gabby. 18 00:01:01,490 --> 00:01:02,360 Check that one out. 19 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,774 And also check out the five essential emails for successful e-commerce email 20 00:01:06,895 --> 00:01:09,054 marketing, which is no mean feat. 21 00:01:09,054 --> 00:01:10,164 I think I did that one actually. 22 00:01:10,164 --> 00:01:11,125 So check out those episodes. 23 00:01:11,125 --> 00:01:15,235 You can find these and our entire archive of episodes on our website 24 00:01:15,235 --> 00:01:19,065 for free at ecommercepodcast.net. 25 00:01:19,225 --> 00:01:22,435 And whilst you are there on our website, why not sign up for our newsletter 26 00:01:22,435 --> 00:01:24,264 if you haven't done so already? 27 00:01:24,324 --> 00:01:28,595 Basically, If you're on our email list, we email out all of the links 28 00:01:28,595 --> 00:01:31,535 from today's show, the notes, the transcripts, all of the things 29 00:01:31,535 --> 00:01:32,675 that Christian's gonna talk about. 30 00:01:32,945 --> 00:01:37,685 It goes straight to your inbox, totally for free, whole thing's 31 00:01:37,685 --> 00:01:38,945 amazing how it all works. 32 00:01:39,185 --> 00:01:41,345 And we don't spam it, all that sort of nonsense. 33 00:01:41,350 --> 00:01:43,745 But we do try and be helpful in what we do. 34 00:01:43,804 --> 00:01:44,104 Now. 35 00:01:45,225 --> 00:01:50,205 This episode is brought to you by the e-commerce cohort, which 36 00:01:50,205 --> 00:01:52,495 helps you deliver e-commerce wow. 37 00:01:52,545 --> 00:01:54,675 The cohort is underway. 38 00:01:54,765 --> 00:01:55,425 Yes, it is. 39 00:01:55,485 --> 00:01:59,555 And if you are involved in e-commerce, it is something I honestly think. 40 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:04,000 You should check out, it is a lightweight monthly sprint. 41 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,240 Basically every week there's something around the topic of e-commerce 42 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,419 for you to get your teeth into, uh, which will help you grow and 43 00:02:10,419 --> 00:02:12,490 develop your own e-commerce business. 44 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:15,760 Whether you are just starting out or if you're like me, you've been around 45 00:02:15,765 --> 00:02:20,200 e-commerce for a while, it's just gonna help you focus on all aspects 46 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,519 of e-commerce in a way I've not seen many things do, if I'm honest with you. 47 00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:27,579 It prevents you getting siloed, it prevents you getting left behind. 48 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,429 There's all that CPD and all that sort of stuff going on. 49 00:02:30,730 --> 00:02:34,120 It's just a beautiful thing and it is a membership, so do check it out. 50 00:02:34,125 --> 00:02:37,545 Honestly, if you're involved in e-commerce, I can't recommend it 51 00:02:37,545 --> 00:02:45,445 highly enough, and you can find more information at ecommercecohort.com. 52 00:02:45,445 --> 00:02:47,035 That's ecommercecohort.com. 53 00:02:47,055 --> 00:02:48,435 I'm in there doing stuff. 54 00:02:48,435 --> 00:02:50,385 There's a whole bunch of other people in there doing stuff. 55 00:02:50,385 --> 00:02:53,715 Come find us, have a conversation, and if you've got any questions 56 00:02:53,715 --> 00:02:59,234 about cohort, then why not email me directly, matt@ecommercepodcast.net 57 00:02:59,655 --> 00:03:03,195 with any questions you have because this is an awesome thing. 58 00:03:03,195 --> 00:03:03,885 Let me tell you. 59 00:03:04,035 --> 00:03:06,920 So do check it out ecommercecohort.com. 60 00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:13,140 Now, Christian Simovic is a plain text email marketing specialist. 61 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:18,390 I like you I'm intrigued by plain text especially cuz I've not done 62 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:20,730 plain text emails for years, right? 63 00:03:20,910 --> 00:03:23,130 Uh, but Christian is a specialist in this area. 64 00:03:23,130 --> 00:03:25,350 He prescribes daily emails for his clients. 65 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:29,220 Uh, sends out daily email marketing tips himself, via his email. 66 00:03:29,645 --> 00:03:32,615 I'm gonna give you the link on where to sign up obviously later on. 67 00:03:32,995 --> 00:03:37,955 His clients have ranged from small organic skincare brands to reality TV stars. 68 00:03:38,315 --> 00:03:41,555 I think I'm more intrigued about the small skincare brands than the reality 69 00:03:41,555 --> 00:03:43,025 TV stars, but maybe that's just me. 70 00:03:43,295 --> 00:03:46,865 Uh, all of that said, uh, Christian, welcome to the show. 71 00:03:46,870 --> 00:03:47,780 Great to have you bud. 72 00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:48,605 Thanks for joining us. 73 00:03:49,905 --> 00:03:50,295 Christian Simovic: Hey Matt. 74 00:03:50,355 --> 00:03:51,495 Uh, pleasure to be a part of the show. 75 00:03:51,495 --> 00:03:54,075 And firstly, I just wanna mention, I thought my title was gonna be pretty 76 00:03:54,075 --> 00:03:57,015 interesting, the frothing at the mouth, but that everything you thought was 77 00:03:57,015 --> 00:03:59,535 wrong about email marketing, that probably takes the cake in titles. 78 00:04:01,035 --> 00:04:02,595 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, you can use that one going forward. 79 00:04:03,015 --> 00:04:04,785 Christian Simovic: Uh, so that one yeah. 80 00:04:06,135 --> 00:04:07,905 I'm gonna steal, I'm very sorry, Gabby, but yeah. 81 00:04:10,365 --> 00:04:11,685 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I'm sure Gabby won't mind. 82 00:04:11,685 --> 00:04:12,435 She's lovely actually. 83 00:04:12,855 --> 00:04:18,115 So, uh, tell me, uh, Christian, uh, about Honey Badger Marketing. 84 00:04:18,229 --> 00:04:19,219 Uh, what does it do? 85 00:04:20,329 --> 00:04:22,430 Christian Simovic: Yeah, so I guess the Origin, Do you wanna 86 00:04:22,430 --> 00:04:23,539 go into my Origin story or more? 87 00:04:23,599 --> 00:04:24,469 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, let's do it. 88 00:04:24,469 --> 00:04:25,159 Let's go for it. 89 00:04:25,159 --> 00:04:25,490 Yeah. 90 00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:25,880 Yeah, why not? 91 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:30,469 Christian Simovic: So, um, obviously I do email copywriting as a freelancer slash 92 00:04:30,469 --> 00:04:32,539 agency role, but if anyone, who knows me. 93 00:04:32,930 --> 00:04:36,710 I was into drop shipping I think in around November, December, 2021. 94 00:04:36,715 --> 00:04:38,030 That's when I kind of got in mm-hmm. 95 00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:40,729 and, you know, like, you know, all 22 year old kids, you know, 96 00:04:40,729 --> 00:04:41,530 who think about drop shipping. 97 00:04:41,530 --> 00:04:42,500 Oh, it's just easy money. 98 00:04:42,500 --> 00:04:43,819 It's just, you just set up a website. 99 00:04:44,309 --> 00:04:47,325 You get traffic and you get money, well, that's obviously not how it works. 100 00:04:48,195 --> 00:04:50,715 I learned that the hard way actually. 101 00:04:50,715 --> 00:04:51,435 Not really the hard way. 102 00:04:51,435 --> 00:04:53,835 I didn't really spend any, that's the thing, I didn't spend any money on ad 103 00:04:53,955 --> 00:04:55,685 I was just really, you know, anyways. 104 00:04:56,655 --> 00:04:59,205 You know, so when I was coming up with my products I was like, well I 105 00:04:59,205 --> 00:05:02,385 need to actually like kind of, I need to have, you know, words that sell. 106 00:05:02,385 --> 00:05:05,115 And I kind of stumbled upon copywriting through that. 107 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,805 And I think I was reading the Gary Halbert newsletter and a few others at the time. 108 00:05:08,805 --> 00:05:12,435 And then I kind of pushed aside drop shipping and eCommerce. 109 00:05:12,555 --> 00:05:14,594 Uh, and then I kind of focused into copywriting. 110 00:05:14,594 --> 00:05:17,594 And to this day I still do e-commerce copywriting cause I 111 00:05:17,594 --> 00:05:19,695 do have a passion for e-commerce. 112 00:05:19,695 --> 00:05:21,585 And maybe one day I'll do it, I'm not sure. 113 00:05:21,585 --> 00:05:23,485 But for now I've got my sights here. 114 00:05:24,345 --> 00:05:25,785 Matt Edmundson: In the email marketing copy. 115 00:05:26,145 --> 00:05:30,075 So what is it about copy that draws you in? 116 00:05:30,075 --> 00:05:31,665 What do you find exciting about that? 117 00:05:32,895 --> 00:05:36,045 Christian Simovic: I think so, like, I'll go more deeper into my, um, Origin story. 118 00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:39,465 So I used to be, I was never a real estate agent, but I've always worked 119 00:05:39,470 --> 00:05:43,695 in the real estate kind of industry and the whole agency commission sales. 120 00:05:43,755 --> 00:05:45,375 I just love being a salesman. 121 00:05:46,350 --> 00:05:48,720 Copywriting is kind, I mean, I know it's a bit of a try, everyone 122 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:49,680 kind of says that, but it's true. 123 00:05:49,710 --> 00:05:51,480 It's salesmanship in print to an extent. 124 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:51,660 Mm-hmm.. 125 00:05:51,930 --> 00:05:54,960 Um, so you are, you're applying the fundamentals of salesmanship 126 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,230 and understanding the psychology of why we buy and then applying 127 00:05:58,230 --> 00:05:59,250 that to the written word. 128 00:05:59,370 --> 00:06:02,550 Um, and, and that's just a, you know, and it's just a fun thing to do in my opinion. 129 00:06:03,030 --> 00:06:03,510 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 130 00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:06,490 And I think actually, um, Christian if I'm honest with 131 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:08,850 you, it's almost like a lost art. 132 00:06:09,830 --> 00:06:12,885 Because what has, and this is why I'm intrigued for this conversation, 133 00:06:12,885 --> 00:06:17,880 right, But what I've, what I've noticed over the years, Email marketing has 134 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,430 become lazier and lazier and lazier. 135 00:06:20,730 --> 00:06:24,600 And what I mean by that is it's just like, I'm gonna throw some products on a page. 136 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,050 I'm gonna discount it by 10% and I'm gonna email that out. 137 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,210 And that's just what I'm gonna do. 138 00:06:30,210 --> 00:06:33,390 I don't really have to, and I can get plugins now, if I've got a Shopify 139 00:06:33,395 --> 00:06:36,180 store that will almost do this whole thing automatically, I don't even 140 00:06:36,180 --> 00:06:37,290 have to figure out the products. 141 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,890 Uh, I'm just gonna get some bot to crawl my database, figure out what 142 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,590 you've bought and I'll email that to you and I think you should buy it again. 143 00:06:43,590 --> 00:06:43,800 Right? 144 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:44,780 A lot of automation. 145 00:06:45,229 --> 00:06:48,530 But no real sort of creativity in the copy. 146 00:06:49,010 --> 00:06:55,260 Um, certainly in the newsletters, in the offers, maybe I see creativity in the 147 00:06:55,265 --> 00:07:00,859 segmentation in the, in the sequences, but I don't tend to see it in the 148 00:07:00,864 --> 00:07:03,530 actual just plain old marketing anymore. 149 00:07:03,859 --> 00:07:07,520 And I remember the days, and the reason I'm saying this is because before 150 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,190 this recording, I was actually on your website having a little look at your 151 00:07:10,190 --> 00:07:16,530 landing page, and I remember the days, um, I wanna call them old school days. 152 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,540 Maybe it's showing my age a little bit, uh, where long form copy was 153 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:27,510 the thing to do and there was a real art to doing long form copy well. 154 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:32,850 An art to sort of writing stuff that made me wanna read what you wrote. 155 00:07:33,405 --> 00:07:36,615 It's more than just like a quick 140 character soundbite, 156 00:07:36,615 --> 00:07:37,125 Do, you know, what I mean? 157 00:07:37,125 --> 00:07:41,625 And, and um, and so I'm really intrigued by this, that actually you are into 158 00:07:41,895 --> 00:07:47,414 email copy and this was sort of an avenue that you chose to sort of express 159 00:07:47,414 --> 00:07:49,605 your craft or your art kind of thing. 160 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:51,179 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 161 00:07:51,179 --> 00:07:53,310 And I like how you kind of just said like, I'm just gonna trip, 162 00:07:53,310 --> 00:07:54,989 rip into shreds about emails. 163 00:07:54,989 --> 00:07:58,229 Um, I do agree with you on that, and I guess it kind of stems from the whole 164 00:07:58,229 --> 00:07:59,969 short form verses long form copy. 165 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,690 Um, I guess I kind of come more from the direct response world of things like the 166 00:08:03,690 --> 00:08:05,450 Ben Settle, Gary Halbert kind of way, and. 167 00:08:06,075 --> 00:08:09,195 You know, the emails that I write for my clients, 500 to a thousand words. 168 00:08:09,195 --> 00:08:12,285 And I know a lot of people, a lot of email marketers might think that's ridiculous. 169 00:08:12,285 --> 00:08:16,245 And no imagery, no real graphics or anything, just really just plain text. 170 00:08:16,245 --> 00:08:19,185 And the whole point of that is you can't, like you're kind of mentioning 171 00:08:19,225 --> 00:08:22,545 long form, you know, you can't really be persuasive with short form copy, in 172 00:08:22,545 --> 00:08:26,924 my opinion and in the stats opinion, but as well, just my opinion, um, So, 173 00:08:26,924 --> 00:08:28,424 yeah, long form really is the way to go. 174 00:08:28,805 --> 00:08:33,225 And, and I think a point you kind of meant about like just bringing back copy. 175 00:08:33,314 --> 00:08:37,155 Um, you know, it, it kind of goes back to a lot of people believe in branded copy 176 00:08:37,155 --> 00:08:40,335 and having like really short, not short headlines, but they think that shorter is 177 00:08:40,424 --> 00:08:44,145 better and that's not always necessarily wrong or right, it's, it's just, 178 00:08:44,145 --> 00:08:45,795 it's more of on a case by case basis. 179 00:08:45,795 --> 00:08:48,885 But I'm gonna be biased here and I always think that long form works better. 180 00:08:49,214 --> 00:08:49,305 Mm-hmm. 181 00:08:49,545 --> 00:08:51,645 , you can kind of, you can, you know, we're talking about, you 182 00:08:51,645 --> 00:08:54,525 know, the whole like copywriting framework problem agitates solution. 183 00:08:54,525 --> 00:08:56,474 Well, you can't really do that with a hundred words. 184 00:08:56,474 --> 00:09:00,495 You know, I've seen a lot of PAS or problem agitate solution examples on 185 00:09:00,525 --> 00:09:04,185 HubSpot, for example, and it's just 50 words and it's just boom, boom, boom. 186 00:09:04,185 --> 00:09:04,665 That's, it. 187 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:07,694 Doesn't really get into the specifics of why I should buy this 188 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:10,545 product, the problems I'm facing, you know, that kind of stuff. 189 00:09:10,545 --> 00:09:14,685 So I really like that about the whole, and I try and put that into emails. 190 00:09:15,165 --> 00:09:17,685 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's pretty, So you are talking about a 191 00:09:17,689 --> 00:09:22,605 500 to a thousand word email, and one of the things that we've noticed, 192 00:09:22,635 --> 00:09:26,910 uh, with one of the e-comm companies that I've got is we do like the, 193 00:09:27,329 --> 00:09:29,819 um, the, the lazy in effect here. 194 00:09:30,089 --> 00:09:31,530 I really need to be careful. 195 00:09:31,530 --> 00:09:33,329 They're not, Jen puts a lot of effort to our emails. 196 00:09:33,329 --> 00:09:33,600 Actually. 197 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:34,469 She's not lazy at all. 198 00:09:34,579 --> 00:09:35,219 I didn't say that. 199 00:09:35,219 --> 00:09:36,180 Um, no, no, no. 200 00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:39,569 Uh, I, I definitely know she's not lazy, but we do the sort of 201 00:09:39,569 --> 00:09:44,670 the offers and the promos and once a quarter I do an update email. 202 00:09:44,670 --> 00:09:47,069 So it's kind of like an update from Matt, you know, the MD 203 00:09:47,069 --> 00:09:48,290 of the company sort of thing. 204 00:09:48,949 --> 00:09:51,935 And they are 500 to 1000 word emails. 205 00:09:51,935 --> 00:09:54,665 And when I started doing 'em I thought this is a bit nuts really, cuz 206 00:09:54,665 --> 00:09:57,365 who's gonna read an email this long? 207 00:09:57,515 --> 00:10:00,755 And you know, to this day they're some of our highest performing emails 208 00:10:00,755 --> 00:10:01,925 is when I just write an update. 209 00:10:01,985 --> 00:10:03,695 I don't even try and sell people anything. 210 00:10:04,125 --> 00:10:06,495 I'm just writing an update about the company, about what's 211 00:10:06,495 --> 00:10:10,515 going on, and people read those things and they email in and go. 212 00:10:10,515 --> 00:10:11,715 Thanks for the update, Matt. 213 00:10:11,715 --> 00:10:17,595 It's awesome, really, and it intrigues me that actually long form content seems 214 00:10:17,595 --> 00:10:20,580 to outperform uh, even in that context. 215 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,390 Christian Simovic: Actually, I wanna make a point you just mentioned, you know, when 216 00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:27,720 you do your emails, like from the founder types of emails from Matt addressing the 217 00:10:27,725 --> 00:10:31,410 people, That's kind of, and where people respond, that's really the crux of plain 218 00:10:31,415 --> 00:10:35,280 text emails is that it is a more personal engaging environment because, you know, 219 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:39,210 a lot of brand center emails, you know, they use the words like, Hey guys, and 220 00:10:39,210 --> 00:10:42,750 then we, and they use a lot of words and not even just words, but like, let's say 221 00:10:43,170 --> 00:10:46,595 from the sender name is like it'n not the founder's name, it's like, you know, 222 00:10:46,595 --> 00:10:50,565 I don't, I'm trying to think of a brand name, let's say from Nike's support team. 223 00:10:50,595 --> 00:10:51,525 It's not really personal. 224 00:10:51,525 --> 00:10:55,155 Like I know this is coming from a marketing team that's not really personal. 225 00:10:55,155 --> 00:10:59,835 Whereas when you Matt, the founder of the company, Matt, send out an email to 226 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,515 everyone, plain text, you know, using the words you and I, speaking to them on 227 00:11:04,515 --> 00:11:06,225 a one-on-one, you know, kind of format. 228 00:11:06,225 --> 00:11:08,835 That's a lot more effective and it really does help to build a loyal 229 00:11:08,835 --> 00:11:10,625 and engaged list in my experience. 230 00:11:10,955 --> 00:11:12,030 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, that's brilliant. 231 00:11:12,330 --> 00:11:15,990 I'm smiling when you called me Max there, uh, because Sadaf, who you spoke 232 00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:20,490 to, the show's producer, um, she and I often laugh because a lot of people, 233 00:11:20,490 --> 00:11:21,870 for whatever reason call me Max. 234 00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:23,500 I don't know, maybe it's the way I say Matt. 235 00:11:23,530 --> 00:11:26,640 When people say who are ouy, I say, Matt Edmundson, they go, Oh, Max. 236 00:11:26,730 --> 00:11:28,260 Uh, and so it comes out a lot. 237 00:11:28,265 --> 00:11:31,230 And so it's a little internal joke we have here, Sadaf and 238 00:11:31,230 --> 00:11:33,300 myself about, so she calls me Max. 239 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:38,010 Um, and so, uh, I call her Sod off sometimes just 240 00:11:38,015 --> 00:11:40,140 because, uh, why not, right? 241 00:11:40,895 --> 00:11:43,105 Christian Simovic: I saw, I just wanna say I saw the, um, when you was 242 00:11:43,105 --> 00:11:45,865 talking about your story, I heard for some reason I instinctively heard Max. 243 00:11:45,865 --> 00:11:47,155 I'm like, I'm gonna say that. 244 00:11:47,155 --> 00:11:47,815 I'm just gonna go for it. 245 00:11:47,815 --> 00:11:49,225 And I realized my mistake. 246 00:11:49,225 --> 00:11:49,825 I'm like, Oh crap. 247 00:11:52,715 --> 00:11:53,635 Matt Edmundson: No, no, it's totally fine. 248 00:11:53,635 --> 00:11:55,735 You're, you're definitely not the first person and you won't be the 249 00:11:55,740 --> 00:11:56,965 last Christian to call me Max. 250 00:11:56,965 --> 00:11:57,325 That's fine. 251 00:11:57,385 --> 00:11:57,715 I'm glad. 252 00:11:58,075 --> 00:11:59,395 Uh, but yes, no, it's fine. 253 00:11:59,395 --> 00:12:01,195 If you wanna call me Max, I have no issue with that. 254 00:12:01,195 --> 00:12:01,825 It's a cool name. 255 00:12:01,825 --> 00:12:03,415 Actually, I quite like Max. 256 00:12:03,535 --> 00:12:04,285 Um, and. 257 00:12:05,510 --> 00:12:06,380 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 258 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:09,590 I've got a friend actually not related to anything we're talking about here. 259 00:12:09,950 --> 00:12:14,570 Uh, I've got a friend who called his son Max after, uh, the movie Gladiator. 260 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:16,140 Maximus Decimus Meridius. 261 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,480 Just so, um, he, he's trained his son in that, that whole speech. 262 00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:24,350 My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, uh, which I think is hysterical. 263 00:12:24,380 --> 00:12:28,580 Anyway, so plain text emails, so plain text emails. 264 00:12:29,090 --> 00:12:32,670 Um, why plain text email? 265 00:12:32,670 --> 00:12:37,800 What is it about Planet text email, which draws you in versus using the standard, 266 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:46,770 um, traditional e-commerce kind of, uh, marketing with images and offers 267 00:12:46,770 --> 00:12:52,290 and grid layouts and graphics and logos and colors and all that HTML stuff? 268 00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:53,580 What draws you in about it? 269 00:12:54,350 --> 00:12:54,530 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 270 00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:54,750 Okay. 271 00:12:54,765 --> 00:12:57,645 So I'll ask you, I'll ask the audience this question as well as you, Matt. 272 00:12:57,645 --> 00:12:59,705 So Matt, do you like salesmen? 273 00:12:59,925 --> 00:13:02,025 Like, do you like when they come onto your door, knock on the door? 274 00:13:02,055 --> 00:13:03,105 Do you like when that happens? 275 00:13:04,395 --> 00:13:05,655 Matt Edmundson: Uh, yes and no. 276 00:13:06,825 --> 00:13:07,065 Christian Simovic: Okay. 277 00:13:07,065 --> 00:13:09,225 Well, most people say no, and I, I'll say why. 278 00:13:09,735 --> 00:13:11,745 Most people in the audience will say no, You know, if, for 279 00:13:11,745 --> 00:13:12,975 example, I come up and go, Hi. 280 00:13:13,035 --> 00:13:13,395 Hi Matt. 281 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,355 By the way, my name's Christian. 282 00:13:14,355 --> 00:13:15,135 I live down the street. 283 00:13:15,315 --> 00:13:16,575 I'm selling some water purifiers. 284 00:13:16,575 --> 00:13:17,565 Would you like to buy some? 285 00:13:18,015 --> 00:13:20,895 Most people say no because salesman are annoying for the most part. 286 00:13:20,895 --> 00:13:22,685 And, and, and this kind of stems from advertising. 287 00:13:23,385 --> 00:13:25,425 You know, most people don't like reading advertisements. 288 00:13:25,425 --> 00:13:26,205 They really don't. 289 00:13:26,355 --> 00:13:28,545 They hate being sold on things, but they love buying. 290 00:13:28,905 --> 00:13:28,995 Mm-hmm.. 291 00:13:29,265 --> 00:13:32,295 It's kind of a weird psychological thing, but I'll go back to the advertisements 292 00:13:32,295 --> 00:13:38,205 thing and if so, psychologically speaking, we hate advertisements and you know, like 293 00:13:38,205 --> 00:13:39,735 I always do this on my calls with people. 294 00:13:39,735 --> 00:13:41,775 Like I just show 'em the promotions tab in Gmail. 295 00:13:41,775 --> 00:13:44,925 I just show 'em every single, you know, every single ecomm brand is pretty much in 296 00:13:44,925 --> 00:13:46,365 the promotions tab for a lot of reasons. 297 00:13:46,515 --> 00:13:46,665 Mm-hmm. 298 00:13:46,905 --> 00:13:48,375 One of the big reasons they use photos. 299 00:13:48,974 --> 00:13:51,045 You know, I'm, I'll speak more about the psychological stuff. 300 00:13:51,045 --> 00:13:54,915 When you open an email and it just has someone's logo, someone's photo, 301 00:13:55,484 --> 00:13:59,025 10% of banner, you know, that kind of traditional stuff, it's very obvious that 302 00:13:59,030 --> 00:14:02,295 it's an advertisement, or at least I'm about to be pitched to buy something. 303 00:14:03,210 --> 00:14:06,480 So from a psychological point of view, you know, a plain text email is a much 304 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,510 better approach because people, like, obviously people know that it's an email 305 00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:13,290 from a marketing company or from an ecomm brand, you know, from the get go. 306 00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:15,870 I'm not instantly just inundated with pitching number one. 307 00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:18,030 Um, so that's one reason for plain text. 308 00:14:18,030 --> 00:14:20,310 And, and I was kind of mentioning as well that like personal, like. 309 00:14:21,195 --> 00:14:24,135 Personal one on one connection, you know, Would you send an email to your 310 00:14:24,135 --> 00:14:27,435 mom, Your mom, if you're American, um, or your dad, you know, would you send, 311 00:14:28,035 --> 00:14:32,625 would you send like, you know, in, in fire, like fire sale emojis and 20% off 312 00:14:32,630 --> 00:14:36,255 and you know, last Sunday deals like, and you know, like logos and stuff. 313 00:14:36,255 --> 00:14:37,545 No one does that personally. 314 00:14:37,545 --> 00:14:39,075 So why would you send that to your customers? 315 00:14:39,075 --> 00:14:40,635 That's kind of my question. 316 00:14:41,175 --> 00:14:44,205 Another reason for plain text as well is from a deliverability point. 317 00:14:44,834 --> 00:14:47,415 Um, you know, Gmail and Yahoo, they have to scan for images. 318 00:14:47,475 --> 00:14:50,865 Now, I don't know all the technical side of things, I'm not gonna lie, but, 319 00:14:50,865 --> 00:14:53,685 um, you know, from a platform from, you know, if you have images and newsletter 320 00:14:53,714 --> 00:14:58,005 kind of themes, a newsletter themed email, they really do end up in the 321 00:14:58,010 --> 00:14:59,805 promotions tab, or worse the spam tab. 322 00:14:59,805 --> 00:15:03,074 And, you know, a, a big crux of it is email deliverability. 323 00:15:03,074 --> 00:15:05,415 You know, if you're not in the primary inbox, you're not getting 324 00:15:05,415 --> 00:15:07,844 as many eyeballs as humanly possible because you know, no one. 325 00:15:08,580 --> 00:15:11,070 I don't, and know, most people don't, We don't check our promotions tab. 326 00:15:11,130 --> 00:15:15,150 Like that's just that, And I, whilst I'm kind of talking about this, there's a 327 00:15:15,150 --> 00:15:18,840 concept that Gary Halbert had, um, the whole, like, this was more about direct 328 00:15:18,845 --> 00:15:20,490 mail, like actual physical letters. 329 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:22,620 But, you know, he was sending out letters and there was this whole 330 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:24,630 concept of the A pileand the B pile. 331 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:26,040 And the B pile. 332 00:15:26,445 --> 00:15:27,045 Or the A pile. 333 00:15:27,045 --> 00:15:30,165 I don't know exactly which one it was, but one of the piles, I'm gonna 334 00:15:30,165 --> 00:15:31,635 say the A pile was advertisements. 335 00:15:31,665 --> 00:15:32,925 And this was very notorious. 336 00:15:32,925 --> 00:15:34,305 Like you could just tell it's junk mail. 337 00:15:34,905 --> 00:15:37,005 And then there's another pile, which is the B pile, which is like your 338 00:15:37,005 --> 00:15:40,395 personal stuff, personal, you know, from your mom, your brother, or whatever. 339 00:15:41,115 --> 00:15:43,335 Most people chuck out the junk mail, They don't even open it. 340 00:15:43,725 --> 00:15:45,405 And that's kind of the point, you know, if you've got. 341 00:15:46,170 --> 00:15:48,540 An email that just screams advertisement either they're not 342 00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:49,830 gonna open it or they do open it. 343 00:15:49,830 --> 00:15:52,650 It's just not, it's not the same from a psychological perspective. 344 00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:52,950 Sure. 345 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:55,020 A long winded way of saying that, but yeah. 346 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,280 Matt Edmundson: No, that's fair comment because I sit here and I'm smiling cuz 347 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:04,110 every morning I open up Gmail and I check my emails and I've got the tabs. 348 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,589 You know, the inbox, the social and the promotions. 349 00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:07,939 I open up the promotions. 350 00:16:07,939 --> 00:16:11,089 There's at least a hundred emails, which some have accumulated overnight. 351 00:16:11,089 --> 00:16:14,120 Now, I appreciate, I'm slightly odd because I get people's emails just 352 00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:15,410 cause I wanna see what they're doing. 353 00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:20,580 Uh, there is that sort of learning factor with it, but, Um, I will quite 354 00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:22,530 happily go through all a hundred emails. 355 00:16:22,530 --> 00:16:26,220 I'll select all, you know, on the, on the promotions tab, and I'll 356 00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:28,860 just scan down the list and I'll untick the ones that I wanna keep. 357 00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:30,090 I'll just delete the rest, right? 358 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:32,040 And the whole thing takes like 30 seconds. 359 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:36,360 So if I'm not captivated by your subject line, or in fact, I 360 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:37,410 rarely look at the subject line. 361 00:16:37,415 --> 00:16:38,430 It's more who's sending it. 362 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,800 I'm kind of curious to, I wanna look for different companies, 363 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:41,790 just how my brain works. 364 00:16:42,450 --> 00:16:46,589 Um, there's a strong chance it's getting deleted and not opened, right? 365 00:16:46,589 --> 00:16:50,775 So I get this whole, You don't want to be in the promotions tab I and 366 00:16:50,775 --> 00:16:52,005 you want to be in the main tab. 367 00:16:52,005 --> 00:16:58,214 So does sending plain text emails then mean I'm more likely to get in 368 00:16:58,444 --> 00:17:00,485 the main sort of email tab on Gmail? 369 00:17:02,085 --> 00:17:02,295 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 370 00:17:02,295 --> 00:17:03,495 For Gmail and yahoo. 371 00:17:03,645 --> 00:17:07,365 I'm not sure about Yahoo, but, and to be fair, who uses Yahoo, but, um, bit 372 00:17:07,984 --> 00:17:09,974 of a stab at people who use Yahoo. 373 00:17:09,974 --> 00:17:10,694 I apologize. 374 00:17:10,785 --> 00:17:12,015 Um, but grow up. 375 00:17:12,315 --> 00:17:15,194 Um, but Gmail, yeah, Gmail definitely does, They definitely 376 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,935 do penalize, um, for photos. 377 00:17:17,515 --> 00:17:20,550 and newsletter, kind of like the newsletter, graphics, that kind of stuff. 378 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:20,880 Mm-hmm. 379 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:22,230 Very good English there. 380 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,110 But yeah, they definitely do penalize and um, I've done my own testing as 381 00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:28,350 well and, you know, moving from my clients doing more the traditional 382 00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:29,980 style across our plane text. 383 00:17:29,980 --> 00:17:32,430 We're hitting the primary not all the time because a lot of the 384 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:34,080 time, you know, spam filters a hit. 385 00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:37,170 You know, one of my clients, he does, one of my clients, he's more of a, like 386 00:17:37,170 --> 00:17:41,880 a hunting and like a hiking kind of stall with a bit of a pro firearm lean to it. 387 00:17:42,030 --> 00:17:42,550 Mm-hmm. 388 00:17:42,635 --> 00:17:45,610 naturally we do trigger a few spam filters or promotions filters, 389 00:17:45,635 --> 00:17:46,470 whatever you wanna call it. 390 00:17:47,070 --> 00:17:48,360 That's kind of unavoidable there. 391 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,260 I mean, I guess it could take it out, but that kind of spoiled the fun, I guess. 392 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:54,960 Matt Edmundson: Defeats the challenge. 393 00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:56,370 Um, exactly. 394 00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:59,160 So the, that you're hitting the primary tab more often. 395 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,220 What software are you using to send plain and text emails. 396 00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:07,600 Are you just using the same email that, uh, like Kajabi or Active Campaign, 397 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,310 the same systems that people would use to send their newsletter style emails? 398 00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:12,459 Or are you using something different? 399 00:18:13,719 --> 00:18:13,889 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 400 00:18:13,889 --> 00:18:18,660 So for me, pardon me, For me personally, I use, um, AWeber, or AWeber, but 401 00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:21,650 for my clients, they're normally on Klaviyo, so I just stick with Klaviyo. 402 00:18:21,780 --> 00:18:25,710 Um, I, most of my clients, or they're also using the Shopify email as well. 403 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:26,100 Mm-hmm. 404 00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:28,920 , so most of my clients are on Shopify, so it doesn't really make sense. 405 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,280 You know, they've been using Klaviyo. 406 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:31,590 It's a pretty effective system. 407 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:33,060 Very good segmentation. 408 00:18:34,395 --> 00:18:36,135 So I quite like Klaviyo for my clients. 409 00:18:36,345 --> 00:18:40,395 I found deliverability is fine in regards to all of the major, major providers. 410 00:18:40,395 --> 00:18:43,455 You know, MailChimp, um, you know, active campaign. 411 00:18:43,815 --> 00:18:44,595 I'm trying to think of a few others. 412 00:18:44,595 --> 00:18:46,995 Klaviyo, got me on the spot. 413 00:18:47,024 --> 00:18:49,034 You know, those ones, they all, they're all pretty fine. 414 00:18:49,034 --> 00:18:50,565 They're all pretty good for deliverability. 415 00:18:50,715 --> 00:18:52,155 Um, I have no problems with them. 416 00:18:52,155 --> 00:18:53,325 Maybe forget some dodgy ones. 417 00:18:53,325 --> 00:18:53,826 I'm not sure. 418 00:18:54,305 --> 00:18:55,784 I can't vouch for them, but, mm-hmm. 419 00:18:56,115 --> 00:18:57,834 Do your due diligence on them. 420 00:18:58,170 --> 00:19:00,210 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I, It's good to know that Klaviyo does that. 421 00:19:00,450 --> 00:19:03,810 One of the things that I've noticed actually from blogs that I've sort of 422 00:19:04,230 --> 00:19:10,110 subscribed to is there's been a marked shift from the send the blog post with the 423 00:19:10,110 --> 00:19:15,210 image header with a nice HTML formatting to actually more and more coming through 424 00:19:15,215 --> 00:19:18,330 as plain text emails, and I think partly because of what you've talked about, 425 00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:19,800 cause of deliverability issues right? 426 00:19:21,010 --> 00:19:21,210 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 427 00:19:21,210 --> 00:19:21,460 Yeah. 428 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,390 And another point as well to mention, cause you're like, I'm not trying to 429 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:27,210 make fun of customers here, but a lot of them have like a short attention 430 00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:31,020 span or they don't wanna take a certain action where, and people are lazy to an 431 00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:34,080 extent, you know, if you put in a link saying, Hey, check out my blog, you 432 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,510 know, like, you know how some people do a little teaser and then, you know, 433 00:19:36,515 --> 00:19:38,010 click here to read the full story. 434 00:19:38,450 --> 00:19:40,910 A lot of people kind of go, Well, can you just put the whole story in 435 00:19:40,910 --> 00:19:42,140 because I don't wanna click a link. 436 00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:45,530 Which I know that sounds really like petty, but seriously, like I, 437 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:48,740 I instead just put the whole blog in unless it's, Well, no, even 438 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:50,000 still, I just put the whole blog in. 439 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,820 It's a, it's a bit better way to do it, in my opinion. 440 00:19:53,460 --> 00:19:54,120 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no. 441 00:19:54,590 --> 00:19:55,510 Interesting, interesting. 442 00:19:55,515 --> 00:19:57,065 Something else to test. 443 00:19:57,625 --> 00:19:59,310 So you are using plain text. 444 00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:00,750 Um, and it's interesting. 445 00:20:00,750 --> 00:20:03,930 The question is, uh, why would you use it over traditional methods? 446 00:20:03,930 --> 00:20:07,020 Whereas I would say plain text is actually traditional, uh, because 447 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:09,570 that's how when we all started out and that's what we had to do, we didn't 448 00:20:09,575 --> 00:20:11,220 have such things as HTML newsletters. 449 00:20:11,230 --> 00:20:14,410 I mean, it rocked everybody's world when we could add an image to an email. 450 00:20:14,410 --> 00:20:14,770 Geez. 451 00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:19,180 Um, so we're going back, I think almost to the early days of text 452 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:24,520 messaging, the sort of very traditional, Where would you use, um, plain text 453 00:20:24,525 --> 00:20:26,440 emails in an e-commerce context? 454 00:20:27,630 --> 00:20:30,510 Christian Simovic: Yeah, so I actually have an e-commerce or hunting client. 455 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:32,340 They'll, I'll, I'll continue with that story. 456 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:34,260 So I use purely plain text for him. 457 00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,750 I don't have any images unless it makes sense. 458 00:20:37,020 --> 00:20:40,500 So, you know, if you've got like a weight loss company or if you've got any kind of 459 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:43,710 before and afters, then it does make sense to use the photo there because it actually 460 00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:46,320 is a very, it's a very persuasive image. 461 00:20:46,845 --> 00:20:50,145 Um, you know, but when it, when it comes to, and I would risk a little 462 00:20:50,145 --> 00:20:53,925 bit of deliverability for that, but when it comes to logo, like a logo 463 00:20:53,925 --> 00:20:57,285 or just, you know, a photo of the brand, I would never include that. 464 00:20:57,375 --> 00:21:00,645 Um, because again, so I'll kind of mention as well, you know, 465 00:21:00,795 --> 00:21:03,435 again, people don't resonate with brands as much as people think. 466 00:21:03,435 --> 00:21:05,985 Like, a lot of people think, Oh, it's the font, or it's the color, 467 00:21:05,985 --> 00:21:09,285 or it's, is it Montserrat or Caliber, or whatever, you know. 468 00:21:10,335 --> 00:21:14,175 I don't feel like brands, you know, we don't feel a sense of connection with 469 00:21:14,175 --> 00:21:16,605 brands when that happens, but what we do feel a sense of connection with 470 00:21:16,605 --> 00:21:19,845 is when a brand, for example, Matt, when you're talking about, you know, 471 00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:22,905 having a personal from the founder type email, that's a lot more personal. 472 00:21:23,175 --> 00:21:26,295 Now to get back on your question about when can use it, I personally don't 473 00:21:26,295 --> 00:21:28,065 see a time when it's not applicable. 474 00:21:28,095 --> 00:21:30,945 Like it will always work obviously for some companies. 475 00:21:30,945 --> 00:21:33,825 Like I'll go with weight loss, you know, before and afters. 476 00:21:33,885 --> 00:21:37,665 They're very, it's pretty crucial to have a photo there because that is a 477 00:21:37,665 --> 00:21:39,205 lot of the persuasion is through that. 478 00:21:39,645 --> 00:21:43,635 Um, but even still, you know, for most brands, a lot of brands might think like, 479 00:21:43,635 --> 00:21:45,525 Oh, well I need photos to convince people. 480 00:21:45,585 --> 00:21:46,425 I've never had that. 481 00:21:46,425 --> 00:21:49,755 The case, you know, a lot of the times they'll read my copy, they'll click 482 00:21:49,755 --> 00:21:52,485 the link and then they'll, they'll see an image anyways on the landing page. 483 00:21:52,905 --> 00:21:55,335 Um, you know, people don't buy based on images. 484 00:21:55,335 --> 00:21:58,395 People buy based on emotion, and that's for the whole point of long form copy. 485 00:21:58,395 --> 00:22:03,629 It's to build and kind of get people not crying, but emotional to an extent about 486 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,580 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no, you want 'em to feel something. 487 00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:05,879 Right. 488 00:22:05,879 --> 00:22:08,340 And you can, And words are a beautiful, I mean, this has been 489 00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:09,360 around for thousands of years. 490 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,570 We use words, you know, to, poetry is made of words. 491 00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:13,649 Shakespeare is made of words. 492 00:22:13,649 --> 00:22:15,360 And so, you know, words work, don't they? 493 00:22:16,409 --> 00:22:20,520 I'm intrigued because, um, I was smiling when you were talking about the logo. 494 00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:24,060 Uh, I have this thing, whenever I do coaching with clients and I come 495 00:22:24,060 --> 00:22:27,030 across their website, the first thing I do is minimize their logo. 496 00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:30,180 Um, and I follow it up with a statement. 497 00:22:30,450 --> 00:22:33,840 No one cares about your logo other than you, right? 498 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:34,560 They just don't. 499 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,190 And if you look on Amazon, and if you look on Apple, you look on Nike, look at how 500 00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:40,290 small their logos are on their websites. 501 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:41,320 It's unbelievable. 502 00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:44,460 Um, now you could say, Well, they've got massive brand recognition. 503 00:22:45,180 --> 00:22:47,490 If you're a small brand, don't go for brand recognition 504 00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:49,080 because it's just not worth it. 505 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:49,380 Right. 506 00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:51,240 Just go for being memorable. 507 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,910 Go for, Just so I get what you're saying about logos and that makes me smile. 508 00:22:57,794 --> 00:23:00,365 Um, and they don't buy cause of the pretty colors, et cetera, et cetera. 509 00:23:00,845 --> 00:23:06,885 So have, is there a case then I guess for, um, I have an eCommerce store, right? 510 00:23:06,889 --> 00:23:08,175 I sell stuff online. 511 00:23:08,625 --> 00:23:12,855 Um, if I want to get started, but I'm slightly nervous. 512 00:23:12,855 --> 00:23:13,935 Can I split test? 513 00:23:13,935 --> 00:23:18,044 Should I send, um, you know, part of this audience, my traditional 514 00:23:18,044 --> 00:23:21,705 newsletter and part of them a bit more of a long form content email and just 515 00:23:21,735 --> 00:23:23,155 see what kind of results they get. 516 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:24,600 Christian Simovic: Yeah, absolutely. 517 00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:25,410 Testing is great. 518 00:23:25,410 --> 00:23:27,840 I think testing to an extent, you know, a lot of people, if you're, if 519 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,810 you've got a very small sample size, like 50 or a hundred people, then it 520 00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:33,480 probably isn't the greatest sample size, like for testing purposes. 521 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,770 But absolutely, a lot of my clients go, I don't, I don't believe what you're saying. 522 00:23:37,770 --> 00:23:40,380 I'm like, Okay, well we'll do a test and see what happens. 523 00:23:40,385 --> 00:23:44,820 So a hundred percent, that's more than, more than, um, I think you should test 524 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:46,620 anyway, so yeah, no problem with that. 525 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,610 Matt Edmundson: Okay, so let me run through some quick fire questions for 526 00:23:50,610 --> 00:23:54,990 you before we get into uh, actually how to write a plain text, email, you know, 527 00:23:54,990 --> 00:23:57,540 and some of the methodology you you use. 528 00:23:57,540 --> 00:24:00,690 Cause I'm curious to see how your brain works Christian, if I'm honest with you. 529 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,270 Um, But before we, before we get down there, what are some of the 530 00:24:05,275 --> 00:24:09,270 common misconceptions or hangups people have about email marketing? 531 00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:14,190 Like you mentioned in, um, or we mentioned in the bio, your proponent of emailing 532 00:24:14,190 --> 00:24:17,670 every day and instantly, if I'm honest with you, there's a little, there's 533 00:24:17,670 --> 00:24:22,200 a little voice inside my head going, Alert, alert, Do you know what I mean? 534 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:23,010 Dive, dive. 535 00:24:23,370 --> 00:24:24,360 Uh, don't go there. 536 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,730 So, um, should you email every day? 537 00:24:28,110 --> 00:24:28,170 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 538 00:24:29,385 --> 00:24:31,995 Can I, I'll answer the first question cause you, you kind of alluded to it, 539 00:24:31,995 --> 00:24:34,035 like, how do you write emails, I guess? 540 00:24:34,905 --> 00:24:35,504 No, it's not a good way. 541 00:24:35,504 --> 00:24:36,735 I'll, I'll talk about daily email. 542 00:24:36,735 --> 00:24:39,524 So daily emails basically the thing is if you're sending, again, 543 00:24:39,524 --> 00:24:42,705 20% off hard pitches every single day, I a hundred percent agree. 544 00:24:42,705 --> 00:24:45,630 Daily emails are not, Really, they're not ideal at all. 545 00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:47,460 In fact, you probably get a lot of unsubscribes. 546 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:47,850 Mm-hmm. 547 00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:49,920 , Um, and unsubscribes aren't necessarily bad. 548 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,240 I'll kind of mention that in the future. 549 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,600 But, um, in terms of daily emails, why they're effective and why they're good. 550 00:24:54,605 --> 00:24:56,320 And I'll try and, it's kind of hard. 551 00:24:56,389 --> 00:24:58,740 Do you mind if I just say, how do I write an email, just like 552 00:24:58,740 --> 00:25:01,290 my kind of way about it, just so I can provide a bit of context? 553 00:25:01,860 --> 00:25:02,550 Matt Edmundson: No, let's do it. 554 00:25:02,550 --> 00:25:03,330 I mean, let's go there. 555 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:05,250 We can always come back to these questions and I can grill 556 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:06,330 you about this for an hour. 557 00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:07,620 So have at it. 558 00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:08,310 Christian Simovic: Yeah, yeah, sure. 559 00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:12,210 So in terms of making a memorable brand and writing emails a 560 00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:14,550 lot, a lot of the thing is, you know, writing a long form email. 561 00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:17,970 I like to talk about people's pains or people's, the market's problems. 562 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,600 Mm-hmm, for an example, I'll use one of my clients, again, I'll use this hunting plan 563 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,800 cause it's the easiest one I can think of. 564 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:24,240 I wrote his emails yesterday. 565 00:25:24,689 --> 00:25:26,040 Um, and, and there's an issue of. 566 00:25:26,395 --> 00:25:29,665 Um, waiting times in New South Wales in terms of the firearms 567 00:25:29,665 --> 00:25:31,735 registry and applying for licenses and that kind of stuff. 568 00:25:32,095 --> 00:25:36,205 There's a long waiting time and there's a lot of pent up angst and, and frustration 569 00:25:36,205 --> 00:25:40,285 and not rage, but like a lot of, a lot of an annoyance with, with the bureaucracy. 570 00:25:40,345 --> 00:25:41,095 And I kind of. 571 00:25:42,210 --> 00:25:46,050 I, I like to take sides in email marketing in sort of saying like, Hey, I'm a brand. 572 00:25:46,110 --> 00:25:47,220 I'm for this kind of person. 573 00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:49,110 If you're not for that kind of person, then you probably 574 00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:49,980 shouldn't be on our list. 575 00:25:50,020 --> 00:25:50,460 Mm-hmm. 576 00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:53,280 And in for that, for, you know, our list, you know, they are angry at 577 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,490 the firearms registry for whatever reason, and I go into forums, I go 578 00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:58,980 Reddit, and I just read their opinions and then I write an email about it. 579 00:25:58,980 --> 00:26:02,475 Pretty much agreeing with them, just kind of ranting and raving about the problem. 580 00:26:03,014 --> 00:26:05,294 And so I, I kind of set up the whole thing with, you know, 581 00:26:05,294 --> 00:26:06,495 here's little story about this. 582 00:26:06,495 --> 00:26:09,225 This guy took him three months to get his firearms license and 583 00:26:09,225 --> 00:26:11,294 then here the comments, people kinda getting angry with it. 584 00:26:11,595 --> 00:26:14,774 I kind of agreed with him and then I said, Look, you know, we're selling 585 00:26:14,774 --> 00:26:18,075 a slingshot, which it is legal in, in, in New South Wales and you 586 00:26:18,075 --> 00:26:19,095 know, you don't need a license. 587 00:26:19,095 --> 00:26:22,064 I was saying, you know, having a firearm is great and all, but you 588 00:26:22,064 --> 00:26:24,764 know, an even better way, you know, to get something right now, you can 589 00:26:24,764 --> 00:26:28,455 still kind of scratch that itch of, of shooting tin cans or whatever it is. 590 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:29,564 You can buy our Sling shot. 591 00:26:29,564 --> 00:26:31,155 You can kind of see the way I've framed it there. 592 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:35,879 When you write like that, a lot of people respond back to our emails saying like, 593 00:26:35,879 --> 00:26:37,169 Yeah, I really agree with your take, man. 594 00:26:37,169 --> 00:26:37,950 I really like it. 595 00:26:38,190 --> 00:26:40,679 You know, I kind of, you know, I can't agree enough with it. 596 00:26:40,679 --> 00:26:43,889 So like, in terms of writing daily emails, you know, if you're writing, 597 00:26:43,889 --> 00:26:47,070 again, if you're just writing, not writing for the sake of writing, but if 598 00:26:47,075 --> 00:26:51,120 you're just writing just hardcore sales pitches, they do get very tiring quickly. 599 00:26:51,159 --> 00:26:54,600 But if you're writing fun, informational, and entertaining, more 600 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:55,980 importantly, entertaining content. 601 00:26:56,399 --> 00:26:57,570 Entertaining content could be anything. 602 00:26:57,575 --> 00:27:01,050 But if you're writing entertaining emails that segue into a product. 603 00:27:01,775 --> 00:27:04,065 You really can't go wrong daily emailing, in my opinion. 604 00:27:04,875 --> 00:27:07,425 Matt Edmundson: And so the emails you send out daily, whether it's for the 605 00:27:07,425 --> 00:27:12,765 hunting company or, or whatever it is, they're all 500 to 1000 words long, or 606 00:27:12,765 --> 00:27:14,325 there's some shorter, some longer ones. 607 00:27:14,330 --> 00:27:15,015 How do you do that? 608 00:27:15,975 --> 00:27:16,245 Christian Simovic: Yeah, yeah. 609 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:19,935 So generally speaking, I do the short, So generally the thousand word ones 610 00:27:19,935 --> 00:27:21,615 are more for setting up a big problem. 611 00:27:21,915 --> 00:27:23,925 And I'll kind of mention that in a little bit. 612 00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:26,745 But like, so these kinds of the normal, the daily correspondence, 613 00:27:26,745 --> 00:27:28,695 about 300 to 500 words give or take. 614 00:27:29,205 --> 00:27:29,970 Um, it can vary. 615 00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:32,220 Some of them a hundred, some can even be 10 words. 616 00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:32,520 Honestly. 617 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,240 We, we did one. 618 00:27:33,245 --> 00:27:36,240 This was a cool, like, little trick you guys can use, or a little hack, I guess. 619 00:27:36,810 --> 00:27:38,880 Uh, it's called like a deliverability booster email. 620 00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:41,820 Um, basically you don't actually pitch anything in your product, you 621 00:27:41,825 --> 00:27:43,110 just ask them a simple question. 622 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:46,620 So for this market, you know, we're based in New South Wales and the National Rugby 623 00:27:46,620 --> 00:27:48,480 League, the grand finals on two weeks ago. 624 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:48,960 Okay? 625 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,870 So I simply asked, Hey, who do you think's gonna win Paramount versus Penworth? 626 00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:52,980 That was the two teams playing. 627 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,680 Um, I didn't, there was no call to action, Nothing. 628 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,780 It was literally just a plain text email from the guy. 629 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,770 10 words and the amount of responses we got is ridiculous. 630 00:28:00,770 --> 00:28:05,039 And it just, and the reason why we want responses, because firstly, they responded 631 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:07,580 because they think it's like I'm writing to them personally, which I'm not. 632 00:28:07,584 --> 00:28:09,500 I'm sending to 5,000 odd people. 633 00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,229 But, you know, another reason why we want responses is because we 634 00:28:12,229 --> 00:28:13,669 can be put in that primary inbox. 635 00:28:13,675 --> 00:28:15,439 Um, so that, that was that. 636 00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:18,979 To go back to daily emails, I'm trying to just not lose my train of thought. 637 00:28:20,370 --> 00:28:20,910 Daily emails. 638 00:28:21,149 --> 00:28:24,690 The whole point of it is that, you know, on any list you've got the hyper buyers 639 00:28:24,690 --> 00:28:27,450 and then you've got, you know, the people who are a little bit skeptical. 640 00:28:27,540 --> 00:28:31,290 Um, and you know, you can send emails to the hyper buyers and they'll 641 00:28:31,295 --> 00:28:32,250 buy pretty much straight away. 642 00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:34,590 It, it really doesn't matter what you send, they just want the product. 643 00:28:34,595 --> 00:28:38,280 But the hyper, the non-hyper buyers, the kind of the skeptics, 644 00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:39,600 they need a lot more convincing. 645 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,580 They need a lot more time before they buy. 646 00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:45,389 And I know I've seen on some people's lists, you know, it might take 110. 647 00:28:45,790 --> 00:28:49,429 120 days before someone actually, like, that's the average it takes for someone to 648 00:28:49,429 --> 00:28:51,290 buy on, on some one of my friends' lists. 649 00:28:51,449 --> 00:28:51,919 Oh, wow. 650 00:28:51,925 --> 00:28:54,560 Um, so that's kind of the whole point of daily emails. 651 00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:57,500 It's kind of like a rock, you know how like a water cut through rock? 652 00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,530 It's not just one go, it's, it's just gradually over time. 653 00:29:01,010 --> 00:29:03,439 Um, and so that's the whole point of daily emails. 654 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,350 Matt Edmundson: So you, you're sending out these daily emails. 655 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,229 They're plain text emails, they're various lengths. 656 00:29:10,050 --> 00:29:10,980 Short question. 657 00:29:10,980 --> 00:29:15,030 Some sort of three to 500, some 500 to a thousand depending on the kind of content 658 00:29:15,035 --> 00:29:18,330 you're sending out, what's gonna work, what's gonna resonate with your audience. 659 00:29:18,330 --> 00:29:21,360 It's gotta be information or educational type stuff. 660 00:29:21,365 --> 00:29:22,230 It's gotta engage. 661 00:29:22,235 --> 00:29:24,810 You can't just be pure sales because no one cares. 662 00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:25,140 Right. 663 00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:29,560 Um, so you are sending out these daily emails. 664 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,430 One of the things that you said, which I thought was interesting that I wanted 665 00:29:32,430 --> 00:29:35,460 to circle back to is you take sides. 666 00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:41,850 Uh, in the emails, um, and I was talking to, uh, Adam, who 667 00:29:41,850 --> 00:29:43,379 was, until recently actually. 668 00:29:43,379 --> 00:29:45,000 He's moved on to bigger and better things. 669 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:45,450 Bless him. 670 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:49,455 Um, the marketing director of one of the companies I'm involved with, and 671 00:29:49,455 --> 00:29:54,825 he was talking about how as a brand we need to become much more polarizing. 672 00:29:54,915 --> 00:29:57,525 We need to sort of take sides, take a stand on something. 673 00:29:57,735 --> 00:29:59,805 And so the fact that you've mentioned this intrigues me. 674 00:29:59,805 --> 00:30:06,355 Is this something that actually, um, as brands we should do is sort 675 00:30:06,355 --> 00:30:11,025 of almost take sides in things and sort of become a little bit more 676 00:30:11,025 --> 00:30:14,115 polarizing rather than beige and trying to be all things to all men. 677 00:30:15,315 --> 00:30:17,595 Christian Simovic: Yeah, so that's, This kind of brings up a point. 678 00:30:17,595 --> 00:30:20,355 I always see a lot of, you know, when you, whenever you go to some, 679 00:30:20,355 --> 00:30:23,355 an e-commerce store and they'll say, you know, 10% often join the tribe. 680 00:30:23,955 --> 00:30:27,075 And you know, I love this idea of a tribe, but the reality is, you know, like. 681 00:30:27,570 --> 00:30:30,000 In order to become a part of a tribe, you need to feel like there's 682 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,260 a group of people that you are in. 683 00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:34,920 And if you are appealing to everyone, then you can't, There's simply, you 684 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,240 just can't have a tribe for everyone. 685 00:30:36,350 --> 00:30:36,710 Mm-hmm. 686 00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:37,500 , you have to pick a side. 687 00:30:37,505 --> 00:30:40,170 And an example of this, you don't have to be really controversial. 688 00:30:40,170 --> 00:30:42,150 I mean, an obvious example is Alex Jones. 689 00:30:42,150 --> 00:30:45,270 He's probably too far, but like, maybe let's talk about golf. 690 00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:48,210 You know, and, and so, you know, in the golfing niche there's, 691 00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:50,670 there's like, there's lots, lots of different buyers, but let's just 692 00:30:50,675 --> 00:30:52,200 say you've got the golfing purists. 693 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,420 You know, the guys who don't like laser range finders, they don't. 694 00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:58,620 Fancy gizmos or do dads, they just like the purest sport of golf. 695 00:30:58,620 --> 00:30:58,710 Mm-hmm. 696 00:30:59,169 --> 00:31:02,159 And then you've got the other guys who are golf like technicians and they love 697 00:31:02,159 --> 00:31:06,030 every little trick and hack and any kind of thing to one up and get better. 698 00:31:06,419 --> 00:31:09,210 And you know, if you're a golfing e-commerce store, you could say, 699 00:31:09,210 --> 00:31:12,300 You know what, I'm gonna pick the purest side and then I'm gonna 700 00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:13,260 write purely for the purest. 701 00:31:13,264 --> 00:31:17,100 And I'm gonna start, I'm not saying to rag on the the technical side all the time, 702 00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:18,840 but you don't even have to rag on them. 703 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,610 You know, if you don't want kind of controversy. 704 00:31:20,610 --> 00:31:23,129 But you can always just say, Look, we're for the pure side, we're 705 00:31:23,129 --> 00:31:24,490 gonna stock purest stuff only. 706 00:31:24,824 --> 00:31:27,645 And the whole reason why we do this to be polarizing is because, you 707 00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:30,885 know, building a loyal and engaged list, there's this kind of factor. 708 00:31:30,885 --> 00:31:33,854 It's called like the know, like and trust factor or klt factor. 709 00:31:34,395 --> 00:31:37,094 A lot of brands have know and trust, but they don't have like, you know, 710 00:31:37,814 --> 00:31:39,465 do you like, I'll give you an example. 711 00:31:39,469 --> 00:31:42,135 Like I don't really like Coke, the brand like Coca-Cola. 712 00:31:42,735 --> 00:31:43,754 There's nothing to like. 713 00:31:43,784 --> 00:31:46,875 Now when we talk about Elon Musk, very polarizing figure. 714 00:31:47,084 --> 00:31:47,625 I personally. 715 00:31:48,495 --> 00:31:49,485 I don't like him or hate him. 716 00:31:49,485 --> 00:31:50,865 I don't, I'm pretty indifferent to him. 717 00:31:51,254 --> 00:31:54,105 But you know, a lot of people don't like Tesla because it's the brand. 718 00:31:54,105 --> 00:31:54,615 Tesla. 719 00:31:54,645 --> 00:31:56,685 They like Tesla because it's Elon Musk, you know? 720 00:31:56,855 --> 00:31:57,135 Yeah. 721 00:31:57,139 --> 00:31:59,115 It's this polarizing dude, just says what he wants. 722 00:31:59,205 --> 00:32:00,284 Same thing with Donald Trump. 723 00:32:00,284 --> 00:32:03,645 Same thing with any kind of really out there politician. 724 00:32:03,649 --> 00:32:04,034 Really. 725 00:32:04,845 --> 00:32:08,595 Um, so building a, like a loyal and, Okay, so the whole point of why you should be 726 00:32:08,595 --> 00:32:12,135 polarizing because when you build like an in group, like a people, that's for me, 727 00:32:12,135 --> 00:32:13,374 like, let's talk about the golf purists. 728 00:32:13,815 --> 00:32:16,335 All of a sudden the golf purists on your list, they start to like you more. 729 00:32:16,665 --> 00:32:19,185 And when they like you more, they'll, they will buy more. 730 00:32:19,275 --> 00:32:22,215 They will have either, either more increased average order volumes 731 00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:25,455 potentially, but more importantly, when they like someone and they, they 732 00:32:25,455 --> 00:32:26,625 like to buy from them more often. 733 00:32:26,625 --> 00:32:30,015 You know, as a golf purist, I'd rather buy from the guy who talks the stuff that 734 00:32:30,020 --> 00:32:33,345 I agree with and I actually like than the guy who's just schilling me stuff 735 00:32:33,345 --> 00:32:35,205 or, or you know, just a corporate brand. 736 00:32:37,140 --> 00:32:38,220 Matt Edmundson: It's interesting, isn't it? 737 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,610 This whole polarization thing and taking sides. 738 00:32:41,610 --> 00:32:45,930 And actually one of the things that I came across recently was, um, something 739 00:32:45,930 --> 00:32:47,740 called the trust report from Edelman. 740 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:50,940 And it was a really interesting survey. 741 00:32:50,940 --> 00:32:53,820 38,000 people, something like, I mean, a lot of people around the, 742 00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:58,110 around the world, uh, Australia, the uk, New Zealand, um, Thailand, 743 00:32:58,110 --> 00:32:59,550 I mean all kinds of places, right? 744 00:32:59,550 --> 00:33:06,179 So, they did this survey, uh, and they were, they were asking people about trust. 745 00:33:06,179 --> 00:33:07,590 Who do you trust? 746 00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:07,949 Right? 747 00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:11,280 And obviously, as you would've predicted, given the times which 748 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,230 we're living in, our trust of politicians is falling at a rapid pace. 749 00:33:16,530 --> 00:33:20,939 Um, what's interesting is when they start talking about trust of companies, 750 00:33:21,254 --> 00:33:25,635 Um, like, do you trust companies and the big companies are losing 751 00:33:25,635 --> 00:33:27,284 trust in the eyes of the consumer? 752 00:33:27,854 --> 00:33:32,655 What is gaining trust are the smaller brands who stand up and not only try and 753 00:33:32,655 --> 00:33:37,754 sell you something but have a cause, have a just cause which they're involved with. 754 00:33:37,754 --> 00:33:37,935 Right? 755 00:33:37,939 --> 00:33:39,645 This comes down to the polarization. 756 00:33:40,004 --> 00:33:42,705 So taking a stance on certain things. 757 00:33:42,705 --> 00:33:48,555 So, um, a lot of consumers now think companies should take a stance on, uh, say 758 00:33:48,555 --> 00:33:52,604 salaries and the environment's a popular one, like, you know, um, whether or not 759 00:33:52,665 --> 00:33:54,135 it's sustainable and so on and so forth. 760 00:33:55,034 --> 00:33:57,135 And you can either be pro sustainability or you could give a 761 00:33:57,135 --> 00:34:01,844 fly and flip, but it in effect creates a tribe, like you say, of people. 762 00:34:01,905 --> 00:34:04,814 And actually it starts to build trust. 763 00:34:04,935 --> 00:34:09,165 Um, and it's something that I think the stat was something like 60 odd 764 00:34:09,165 --> 00:34:13,424 percent, 70% of consumers think companies should be doing this more now. 765 00:34:13,844 --> 00:34:15,194 I mean, it's a lot of consumers that. 766 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,160 That, think that, right? 767 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,340 So, um, I'm intrigued by this whole person, uh, this whole 768 00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:22,080 polarization thing, you know? 769 00:34:22,085 --> 00:34:26,190 And, and, um, and how, so how did you, how else have you seen that work? 770 00:34:26,190 --> 00:34:27,810 You talked about it with the hunting thing. 771 00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:29,220 Where else have you seen that work? 772 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,100 Christian Simovic: Yeah, and I, I actually wanted to mention as well, 773 00:34:32,105 --> 00:34:34,400 just cause I kind of thought of that idea, talking about the corporate world. 774 00:34:34,620 --> 00:34:37,320 Um, and a lot of trust is kind of falling in the bigger brands. 775 00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:39,750 Probably a good example would be like greenwashing for example. 776 00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:42,480 Like a lot of the brands, the larger brands like to talk about where an 777 00:34:42,485 --> 00:34:44,070 environmentally friendly, sustainable. 778 00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:47,550 In reality, their practices are pretty, pretty negative. 779 00:34:47,670 --> 00:34:49,350 Um, so that's kind of a mention. 780 00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:50,400 I want to talk about that. 781 00:34:50,700 --> 00:34:53,670 Um, well, a good example, this is actually kind of one of my, my mentors, 782 00:34:53,670 --> 00:34:54,840 I guess I'll talk about Ben Settle. 783 00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:58,710 Um, a lot of his, his kind of email newsletters, very polarized in the 784 00:34:58,715 --> 00:35:01,800 sense that he doesn't really cater towards, like beginners and newbies. 785 00:35:02,190 --> 00:35:04,470 He kind of, he doesn't really make fun of people, but he 786 00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:05,750 does, I guess, troll people. 787 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:08,640 If someone, you know, has a, a silly question, he's not afraid 788 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,320 to roast them in the comments. 789 00:35:11,475 --> 00:35:13,575 I'll give you an example from my other client. 790 00:35:14,055 --> 00:35:18,115 Um, I'm not gonna say his name, but he has like a, like a Psilocybe. 791 00:35:18,765 --> 00:35:20,835 He doesn't like the term, but magic mushrooms essentially. 792 00:35:21,135 --> 00:35:21,285 Mm-hmm. 793 00:35:21,615 --> 00:35:23,685 , Um, it does sound a little bit derogatory, so I get that. 794 00:35:23,685 --> 00:35:23,925 But yeah. 795 00:35:23,925 --> 00:35:27,915 So basically magic mushroom company, and we kind of in our emails like the 796 00:35:27,915 --> 00:35:31,125 villain, so this is a good way as well to kind of build a tribe, is to have 797 00:35:31,125 --> 00:35:34,305 a villain and in, in our case, for the, you know, for magical mushrooms 798 00:35:34,305 --> 00:35:38,265 and the, and the alternative health fare, Big pharma is a perfect villain. 799 00:35:38,325 --> 00:35:39,735 You know, that is the ultimate villain. 800 00:35:39,735 --> 00:35:42,165 And I wanna go back to the firearms one, the villain in my 801 00:35:42,165 --> 00:35:43,695 case was the firearms registry. 802 00:35:43,695 --> 00:35:47,145 And in, let's say in the case, , let's say in the case of like an e-commerce 803 00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:48,255 company, just a generic one. 804 00:35:48,285 --> 00:35:51,015 You know, the villain could be drop shippers, you know, in the hunting company 805 00:35:51,015 --> 00:35:55,154 one, I, I did an email kind of just saying that drop shippers, um, the whole 806 00:35:55,154 --> 00:35:58,365 process of what drop shipping is and, and how it kind not riling up the customers, 807 00:35:58,370 --> 00:36:01,605 but getting them to understand what, you know, what drop shipping is and why 808 00:36:01,605 --> 00:36:04,125 it's ineffective compared to e-commerce and just showing them the negatives 809 00:36:04,154 --> 00:36:07,455 and kind of painting the drop ship is as a bit of a villain in this case. 810 00:36:08,654 --> 00:36:11,384 But yeah, the, the magic mushroom one, that was an awesome villain. 811 00:36:11,445 --> 00:36:12,555 Big pharma was a great villain. 812 00:36:12,555 --> 00:36:15,865 And I don't always like talking about pains because, you know, you 813 00:36:15,865 --> 00:36:17,295 don't wanna always be depressing. 814 00:36:17,355 --> 00:36:20,535 You know, we live in a very, very like, fractured society 815 00:36:20,535 --> 00:36:21,884 nowadays, especially after Covid. 816 00:36:21,884 --> 00:36:24,705 You know, a lot of people still are kind of depressed and very isolated. 817 00:36:24,705 --> 00:36:26,384 So I like to provide uplifting stories. 818 00:36:26,805 --> 00:36:30,045 And one of the stories for this, Psilocybin Magic mushroom company 819 00:36:30,045 --> 00:36:32,444 was we, we did a story with this woman named Janet Li Chang. 820 00:36:32,475 --> 00:36:35,504 She was someone online and this was kind of her effect. 821 00:36:35,504 --> 00:36:38,444 She, she basically told the great benefits she got from. 822 00:36:39,345 --> 00:36:42,375 She, she received from, um, it's called Microdosing or Magic. 823 00:36:42,375 --> 00:36:44,445 That's what the whole, the whole thing is microdosing. 824 00:36:44,745 --> 00:36:48,285 And it was kind of just an uplifting story of how she went from, you know, depressed, 825 00:36:48,345 --> 00:36:52,125 nearly suicidal to, you know, just feeling alive with energy, talking to people. 826 00:36:52,335 --> 00:36:54,915 She even spoke to, apparently she spoke to a barista at an airport 827 00:36:54,915 --> 00:36:55,785 for like four hours straight. 828 00:36:55,790 --> 00:36:57,285 She was just that full of energy. 829 00:36:57,285 --> 00:36:59,145 So I like telling those stories as well. 830 00:36:59,145 --> 00:37:02,715 And it does hit a problem the market is facing as well at the same. 831 00:37:03,944 --> 00:37:08,205 Matt Edmundson: So, um, I mean, magic mushrooms aside, uh, having a villain 832 00:37:08,205 --> 00:37:10,634 I think is quite an interesting idea. 833 00:37:10,634 --> 00:37:12,495 Who, who's the villain in the story? 834 00:37:12,495 --> 00:37:14,834 And I think about every well written story. 835 00:37:15,405 --> 00:37:17,025 There's always a villain, right? 836 00:37:17,025 --> 00:37:18,945 There's always the arch nemesis. 837 00:37:19,395 --> 00:37:25,395 Uh, and so, um, when you are writing these stories of heroism, um, have you 838 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,435 come across a guy called Don Miller? 839 00:37:27,585 --> 00:37:28,815 Don Miller's a really interesting guy. 840 00:37:29,055 --> 00:37:29,805 Story brand. 841 00:37:29,835 --> 00:37:30,315 Yeah, absolutely. 842 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,185 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 843 00:37:31,185 --> 00:37:32,885 And his whole theory isn't it, is. 844 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,460 That, um, when you write, you write as though the customer 845 00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:37,690 is the hero, not the brand. 846 00:37:37,690 --> 00:37:39,759 You're not trying to make the brand be the hero. 847 00:37:40,420 --> 00:37:42,070 He likens it to Luke Skywalker. 848 00:37:42,070 --> 00:37:46,180 He's, he's like, the brand is Obi Wan Kenobi, the customer is Luke Skywalker. 849 00:37:46,185 --> 00:37:46,420 Right? 850 00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:48,970 So you are writing them into your story as the hero. 851 00:37:49,540 --> 00:37:51,550 Um, but he always talks about the villain. 852 00:37:51,550 --> 00:37:56,055 Who's the villain in the story, Who's the Darth Vader, right? 853 00:37:56,075 --> 00:37:57,505 Who we got to overcome. 854 00:37:57,575 --> 00:38:01,565 And that can be people, that can be other companies, that can be a particular 855 00:38:01,565 --> 00:38:03,905 problem, it can be a limiting belief. 856 00:38:03,905 --> 00:38:07,685 There's all kinds of things that that villain can be, and that's 857 00:38:07,685 --> 00:38:10,235 part of the story of being the hero, which I think is quite interesting. 858 00:38:10,715 --> 00:38:15,305 So you send out daily emails, which I'm really intrigued by actually. 859 00:38:15,635 --> 00:38:17,945 Um, do you get many unsubscribes? 860 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:19,760 Christian Simovic: Yes, we do. 861 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,840 And I'll be very blunt. 862 00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:25,260 So a lot of people go, you know, unsubscribe, wouldn't 863 00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:26,160 you get a lot of unsubscribes? 864 00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:26,970 That is very true. 865 00:38:27,060 --> 00:38:31,740 Um, but, you know, checking the Klaviyo, the software, what we noticed, um, when we 866 00:38:31,740 --> 00:38:34,050 were first doing this, cause I was worried the first time I ever did this, I'm like, 867 00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:38,030 Oh crap, we're getting like 1% unsubscribe rate, which sounds really high, but the 868 00:38:38,035 --> 00:38:39,630 reality was we checked out all the buyers. 869 00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:40,840 Or the buyers. 870 00:38:40,860 --> 00:38:44,550 I'm doing air quotes, if anyone can't read that , every single person who unsubscribe 871 00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:46,110 had never even bought a product. 872 00:38:46,380 --> 00:38:49,020 Or if they had, they hadn't bought since 2018 and they bought 873 00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:50,940 a $30 item five four years ago. 874 00:38:51,330 --> 00:38:55,590 Um, you know, this whole concept of, you know, like, Oh, we don't wanna offend, you 875 00:38:55,595 --> 00:38:56,880 know, like, we don't wanna unsubscribe. 876 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,340 As I understand where that's coming from, but it's not really coming. 877 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:02,250 It's coming from a bit of like a, like you're playing to lose, not 878 00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:03,540 playing to win kind of mindset. 879 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:03,690 Mm-hmm. 880 00:39:03,930 --> 00:39:06,570 Like, instead of what, what I personally think and what I've done 881 00:39:06,575 --> 00:39:10,274 with a few of my clients is that, you know, Get those people off the list. 882 00:39:10,274 --> 00:39:11,654 Cause they'll never gonna buy anyways. 883 00:39:11,654 --> 00:39:13,245 That's the best sign that they're never gonna buy. 884 00:39:13,274 --> 00:39:17,115 Unsubscribe straightaway and then fill, fill up their place with people who are 885 00:39:17,115 --> 00:39:20,174 going to buy, whether that's through paid advertising, SEO, or whatever. 886 00:39:20,205 --> 00:39:23,145 Just constantly build the list, constantly build a list of buyers, 887 00:39:23,145 --> 00:39:24,285 which is even more important. 888 00:39:24,615 --> 00:39:27,899 You know, a lot of people like to think like, Oh, I've got a 10,000 or 20,000, 889 00:39:28,309 --> 00:39:32,294 I had one client shed an 80,000 person list, and that sounds really impressive. 890 00:39:32,294 --> 00:39:33,884 But none of them were buyers. 891 00:39:33,884 --> 00:39:35,745 They were all just a mishmosh of random people. 892 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,070 You know, when we're emailing, the results weren't great 893 00:39:38,070 --> 00:39:39,390 because they just weren't buyers. 894 00:39:39,450 --> 00:39:43,500 Um, I'd much rather have a highly responsive list of 3000 or 4,000 895 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:46,290 people than 10,000 people who were just kind of there for the 896 00:39:46,290 --> 00:39:49,070 ride and not really responding or not buying or anything like that. 897 00:39:50,250 --> 00:39:51,380 Matt Edmundson: That's really interesting. 898 00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:53,100 I like your theory on unsubscribes. 899 00:39:53,370 --> 00:39:57,480 And do you, do you then segment, do you send the same email to everybody 900 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,360 on the list or do you go, cuz like with Klaviyo you mentioned, or 901 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,680 Klaviyo, however you pronounce it. 902 00:40:02,010 --> 00:40:04,740 Um, you mentioned that you, you know, it's got good segmentation, 903 00:40:04,740 --> 00:40:06,480 which it has, we use that ourselves. 904 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,250 Um, do you send the same email to your best customers that you do for 905 00:40:11,250 --> 00:40:14,220 those that haven't bought from you since 2018 and bought ones for $30? 906 00:40:15,675 --> 00:40:18,915 Christian Simovic: Yeah, so how I segment is, so I've, I'm, I said 907 00:40:18,915 --> 00:40:20,325 Klaviyo's got great segmentation. 908 00:40:20,325 --> 00:40:22,095 I don't really take full advantage of it, and that's something 909 00:40:22,095 --> 00:40:23,265 I should be trying to do. 910 00:40:23,265 --> 00:40:26,055 But I normally have a buyer's list, a non-buyer's list, and then 911 00:40:26,055 --> 00:40:28,905 like a hyper buyers list, which is that kind of that VIP buyers. 912 00:40:29,085 --> 00:40:30,855 Maybe they've bought three or four times more. 913 00:40:31,215 --> 00:40:35,025 Um, generally speaking, everyone gets the same list and I say everyone gets the 914 00:40:35,025 --> 00:40:38,955 same email and I'm trying to experiment a bit in actually kind of writing a second 915 00:40:39,165 --> 00:40:43,665 email, like two emails in a day for that hyper buyer's list or potentially. 916 00:40:44,235 --> 00:40:46,845 Let's say, So it kind of depends on what you're selling for e-commerce. 917 00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:48,855 Like let's say there's like the flagship product, which is, let's 918 00:40:48,855 --> 00:40:51,645 say a slingshot, you know, and you get everyone on your list, everyone. 919 00:40:51,645 --> 00:40:55,035 So once they buy that slingshot, then they get moved onto a new product. 920 00:40:55,035 --> 00:40:58,545 Maybe like some kind of an upsell, I'm trying to think like slingshot 921 00:40:58,545 --> 00:41:00,375 coaching or slingshot, whatever. 922 00:41:00,375 --> 00:41:01,815 But like, I'm trying to think of another way. 923 00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:05,355 So maybe the buyers or the buyers in this case, and then the non-buyers 924 00:41:05,355 --> 00:41:08,625 would get just the normal standard daily email, whereas the hyper 925 00:41:08,625 --> 00:41:11,745 buyers might get a more expensive up, like, what's the word, high ticket 926 00:41:11,745 --> 00:41:13,725 product or maybe even a second email. 927 00:41:14,175 --> 00:41:16,335 That's something I haven't really toyed, I'm kind of thinking 928 00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:17,475 around as well on the go. 929 00:41:18,135 --> 00:41:20,895 But to answer your question, I send, right now, I just send the same email 930 00:41:20,895 --> 00:41:21,975 to everyone, so an email to everybody. 931 00:41:22,965 --> 00:41:23,295 Okay. 932 00:41:23,505 --> 00:41:25,245 So probably not that segmented, but still. 933 00:41:25,365 --> 00:41:25,855 Okay. 934 00:41:26,385 --> 00:41:29,685 Matt Edmundson: Um, I've got here a little note saying, Ask 935 00:41:29,685 --> 00:41:31,425 why, Uh, Sadaf put this in. 936 00:41:31,425 --> 00:41:34,625 Why using spell check can make your emails less profitable. 937 00:41:35,055 --> 00:41:38,835 Uh, I am super intrigued by this cuz I spell check everything 938 00:41:38,835 --> 00:41:40,575 like, cuz my spelling is awful. 939 00:41:41,055 --> 00:41:41,595 Awful. 940 00:41:41,654 --> 00:41:42,975 So I use it all the time. 941 00:41:44,174 --> 00:41:45,525 Christian Simovic: So it comes from two things. 942 00:41:45,525 --> 00:41:49,740 So number one, You know, it kind of goes down to the brand and the 943 00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:51,540 corporate, kind of the corporate look. 944 00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:54,450 You know, a lot of people, whenever you see a corporate brand speaking, 945 00:41:54,450 --> 00:41:58,050 it's very perfect, crisp, no slang, no jargon, and it's very 946 00:41:58,050 --> 00:41:59,400 corporate and that's totally fine. 947 00:41:59,730 --> 00:42:03,720 But you know, I'm gonna liken them to Dua Lipa or Brad Pitt or you know, 948 00:42:03,799 --> 00:42:04,950 Chris Pratt or any of these guys. 949 00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:06,390 Any of these like famous actors. 950 00:42:07,385 --> 00:42:08,735 Can you personally relate to them? 951 00:42:08,765 --> 00:42:11,944 Like they've got a six pack, they've got perfect teeth, you 952 00:42:12,075 --> 00:42:15,425 know, chiselled jaw, all this stuff, You know, they look perfect. 953 00:42:15,425 --> 00:42:18,665 I can't, I personally can't relate to them, but you know who I can relate to. 954 00:42:18,670 --> 00:42:21,575 I can relate to the guy, you know, waking up at 3:00 AM he's a little 955 00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:23,105 bit overweight, he's eating ice cream. 956 00:42:23,165 --> 00:42:23,945 Probably shouldn't. 957 00:42:24,215 --> 00:42:25,985 So his wife's gonna try not catch him outta bed. 958 00:42:25,985 --> 00:42:28,115 You know, like I, his wife's like, Where are you? 959 00:42:28,205 --> 00:42:29,075 Like he's just getting ice cream. 960 00:42:29,075 --> 00:42:30,875 Like that kind of guy is a lot more relatable. 961 00:42:30,905 --> 00:42:34,265 And when you use spell, when you use typos, when you use slang, when. 962 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,880 No jargon, just slang and typos and, and purposely, I don't purposely 963 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,580 misspell, but sometimes I'll misspell and I won't fix it up. 964 00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:44,640 You're making mistakes in a sense that, Have you ever watched, 965 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,259 you know, Colombo, that TV show? 966 00:42:46,339 --> 00:42:47,020 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 967 00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:48,100 Like the, Yeah. 968 00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:50,130 You know, the detective, he kind of comes and he looks like a bit 969 00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:51,390 of a bumbling fool here and there. 970 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,339 That's on purpose because he's kind of telling everyone that, Hey, I'm not okay. 971 00:42:55,690 --> 00:42:58,605 You like in the interrogation, the interview, you are 972 00:42:58,605 --> 00:42:59,895 better than me in a sense. 973 00:42:59,895 --> 00:43:02,865 Like you are more okay than me and people feel more comfortable with that. 974 00:43:02,895 --> 00:43:05,655 You know, people, I know this is kind of a weird thing, but when you're in 975 00:43:05,655 --> 00:43:09,195 a social environment, when you see someone who's really like in high 976 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,105 school, like let's say the really cool guy, I'm not comfortable with that guy. 977 00:43:12,105 --> 00:43:13,725 I don't want to say a joke. 978 00:43:13,725 --> 00:43:16,155 I don't wanna like say anything that could get me in trouble. 979 00:43:16,185 --> 00:43:16,485 You know? 980 00:43:16,815 --> 00:43:18,465 That's just psychologically speaking. 981 00:43:18,465 --> 00:43:20,384 But when I'm with someone who I don't perceive as. 982 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,470 As, as okay. 983 00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:25,080 You know, then it's, I feel a lot more relaxed and comfortable. 984 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,530 And then I guess that sounds kind of bad cycle, you know, from like, it doesn't 985 00:43:28,530 --> 00:43:31,890 really sound nice, but that's just the way humans are and that's the whole point of 986 00:43:31,895 --> 00:43:33,870 spelling, uh, spelling mistakes and typos. 987 00:43:34,050 --> 00:43:34,380 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 988 00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:35,490 It's disarming, isn't it? 989 00:43:35,490 --> 00:43:37,800 I mean, Colombo was disarming, that's probably the word you 990 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:38,940 would, that you would use. 991 00:43:39,779 --> 00:43:42,360 So I think that's fascinating. 992 00:43:44,620 --> 00:43:50,310 So can you run us through, uh, Christian, your process for writing an 993 00:43:50,310 --> 00:43:54,390 email then that, you know, customers are gonna want to, gonna want to read 994 00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:55,500 that they're gonna enjoy reading. 995 00:43:55,500 --> 00:44:00,000 What's the sort of, If I'm sat there at my computer, um, I'm staring at it. 996 00:44:00,430 --> 00:44:03,134 Writer's block blank screen, you know, where, where do, What are 997 00:44:03,134 --> 00:44:04,274 some of the things that I can do? 998 00:44:04,274 --> 00:44:04,845 What do you do? 999 00:44:05,895 --> 00:44:06,225 Christian Simovic: Yeah. 1000 00:44:06,315 --> 00:44:06,424 Okay. 1001 00:44:06,424 --> 00:44:08,895 So the answer to all your questions are in the market. 1002 00:44:08,895 --> 00:44:10,785 And I know that sounds really simple, but it's true. 1003 00:44:11,294 --> 00:44:15,075 If you spend all of your time knowing everything about your market, the 1004 00:44:15,075 --> 00:44:18,495 problems, their pains, what they want, all that kind of stuff, their 1005 00:44:18,524 --> 00:44:19,964 little slang, their little jokes. 1006 00:44:20,805 --> 00:44:23,355 It writing daily emails or just writing emails in general is 1007 00:44:23,355 --> 00:44:24,975 very easy because you understand. 1008 00:44:24,975 --> 00:44:26,415 You understand what they wanna talk about. 1009 00:44:26,415 --> 00:44:28,515 And this whole writer's block notion, I had that. 1010 00:44:29,235 --> 00:44:31,875 The real, the reality is, you know, when you do a lot of research and 1011 00:44:31,875 --> 00:44:34,634 understanding exactly what their problems are, it becomes a lot easier. 1012 00:44:34,634 --> 00:44:39,165 So let's talk about, I'll do like a sample right in front of all of you, . Um, 1013 00:44:39,195 --> 00:44:42,015 let's talk about magic mushrooms, cause that's what we're talking about before. 1014 00:44:42,075 --> 00:44:45,825 And let's talk about the pain of, So the real problem is depression and anxiety. 1015 00:44:45,915 --> 00:44:49,185 Uh, a lot of people who microdose, they do it because they're depressed, 1016 00:44:49,185 --> 00:44:51,045 they're anxious, maybe they have ptsd. 1017 00:44:51,855 --> 00:44:56,205 So the problem might be, I might, I might go on Reddit or Quora or a YouTube comment 1018 00:44:56,205 --> 00:44:57,884 and I might say a really popular trending. 1019 00:44:58,649 --> 00:45:01,439 Like question, Let's say the question is, I don't know. 1020 00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:05,669 Let's talk about like, you know, like, I've tried antidepressants 1021 00:45:05,669 --> 00:45:07,680 before and I don't feel any better. 1022 00:45:07,740 --> 00:45:08,850 I'm gonna try microdosing. 1023 00:45:09,060 --> 00:45:10,980 Like, so that could be the whole point of the email. 1024 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:14,325 So the email could be basically saying like, you know, Maybe you've 1025 00:45:14,325 --> 00:45:17,595 tried, like they're called SSRIs or antidepressants, you know, you've 1026 00:45:17,595 --> 00:45:18,944 tried antidepressants before. 1027 00:45:19,125 --> 00:45:21,404 Here are some of the negatives of antidepressants, and just kind of get 1028 00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:24,255 into their head and get into their world about the problems they face. 1029 00:45:24,375 --> 00:45:27,435 You know, again, if they've got any talking points, if they've said any 1030 00:45:27,435 --> 00:45:31,035 opinions I'd, I wouldn't copy and paste it, but I'd kind of rewrite what they've 1031 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,755 said just to understand exactly what you know, to just to show that I'm on their 1032 00:45:34,755 --> 00:45:36,165 level, like I'm getting in their head. 1033 00:45:36,165 --> 00:45:37,725 I understand what's going on through them. 1034 00:45:38,265 --> 00:45:42,029 Um, and then from there, like I can't explain it off the top of my 1035 00:45:42,029 --> 00:45:43,020 head cause I'm really bad at that. 1036 00:45:43,024 --> 00:45:44,520 But I kind of just go from there. 1037 00:45:44,549 --> 00:45:46,620 I'll come up with a topic from the market. 1038 00:45:46,890 --> 00:45:48,479 I'll talk about their problem. 1039 00:45:48,479 --> 00:45:50,700 Maybe I might even insert a story about a problem. 1040 00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,370 You know, someone on antidepressants, here's this shocking story. 1041 00:45:53,370 --> 00:45:55,740 You know, they gained weight, they can't fall, sleep, whatever. 1042 00:45:56,189 --> 00:45:57,750 Maybe there's a funny kind of story. 1043 00:45:57,750 --> 00:46:00,569 Maybe there's, trying to think of something else. 1044 00:46:00,930 --> 00:46:01,859 That's what I can think of. 1045 00:46:01,859 --> 00:46:04,680 Let's go with funny story and then I'll kind of just segue that into 1046 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,060 my product, which is microdosing. 1047 00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:09,549 And then I go like, Look, if you've, if you're, if you're sick and tired of these 1048 00:46:09,549 --> 00:46:11,205 symptoms, you should try microdosing. 1049 00:46:11,205 --> 00:46:16,004 And that's a really crap, you know, kind of, um, like a synopsis of what I do. 1050 00:46:16,004 --> 00:46:18,015 But that's just the general framework at this point. 1051 00:46:18,015 --> 00:46:20,714 I kind of just go into autopilot and just write 'em up, I guess. 1052 00:46:21,404 --> 00:46:23,745 Matt Edmundson: So when you write and you know, you talked about your 1053 00:46:23,745 --> 00:46:27,975 mentors that you've looked at, is there a framework, uh, earlier on you 1054 00:46:27,975 --> 00:46:30,165 mentioned about PAS, The, what was it? 1055 00:46:30,165 --> 00:46:33,794 The problem, agitate, solution. 1056 00:46:34,485 --> 00:46:37,875 Um, is there a framework like that, that you are thinking of 1057 00:46:37,875 --> 00:46:40,935 when you write the email so you've got some kind of structure to it? 1058 00:46:40,935 --> 00:46:42,375 Like a beginning, a middle, and an end? 1059 00:46:43,575 --> 00:46:46,035 Christian Simovic: I guess like now that I look back, I probably do. 1060 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:50,714 I just don't, I don't consciously think about it, I, now that I'm, now that I'm 1061 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:54,285 kind of the way you said it, I probably definitely to follow just a very, very, 1062 00:46:54,555 --> 00:46:57,165 like a PAS problem, agitate, solution. 1063 00:46:57,564 --> 00:46:59,145 Um, you know, there's another thing. 1064 00:46:59,145 --> 00:47:01,935 You know, this comes from like the legendary, like negotiator. 1065 00:47:01,935 --> 00:47:04,725 He actually, his name was Jim Camp, um, one of the world's most feared 1066 00:47:04,725 --> 00:47:07,455 negotiators, and he had this whole concept of building a vision, 1067 00:47:07,725 --> 00:47:09,195 which is essentially just PAS. 1068 00:47:09,779 --> 00:47:12,509 You know, instead of pitching the benefit straight away of my product, 1069 00:47:12,509 --> 00:47:15,060 you know, he would, he'd talk about, you know, just provide a, and he 1070 00:47:15,060 --> 00:47:18,180 did obviously in selling, but he'd provide a vision of the problem. 1071 00:47:18,330 --> 00:47:20,580 Um, and that's kind of the whole point in the emails. 1072 00:47:20,580 --> 00:47:23,130 Like, I always try to make, make sure the reader knows that, hey, 1073 00:47:23,134 --> 00:47:26,460 there is a problem, or agitate their problem and then provide the solution. 1074 00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:30,720 Um, but in terms of frameworks, I, I don't have any off the top of my head. 1075 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:34,980 I know a lot of copywriters out there like, Like the 18 step framework, you 1076 00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:39,780 know, if X, Y, you know, like if then Z and I, that's just too complicated and 1077 00:47:39,780 --> 00:47:43,140 convoluted even for me and especially for, you know, e-commerce business owners. 1078 00:47:43,140 --> 00:47:46,710 Like you guys have a lot on your plate and there's no point, you know, 1079 00:47:46,710 --> 00:47:48,480 worrying so much about copywriting books. 1080 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,820 I think the best thing is just to start, just start writing and 1081 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,790 understanding your market and, mm-hmm . Yeah, that's probably the best way. 1082 00:47:55,154 --> 00:47:57,345 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I've like, I mean, going back to the founder email, 1083 00:47:57,345 --> 00:48:01,154 which I, uh, well, the, uh, the, the MD email, I'm not the founder. 1084 00:48:01,515 --> 00:48:04,785 Um, but going back to that email that I write, I don't have a framework. 1085 00:48:04,815 --> 00:48:06,105 I'm just trying to be authentic. 1086 00:48:06,495 --> 00:48:08,205 Uh, and I think people respond to that. 1087 00:48:08,205 --> 00:48:12,705 And for me, that includes telling a lot of stories, um, because I think stories work. 1088 00:48:13,365 --> 00:48:18,314 Um, but I, I'm in, I'm curious about the PAS thing. 1089 00:48:18,314 --> 00:48:20,055 I've, I've seen that a few times, actually, I can't 1090 00:48:20,055 --> 00:48:20,984 say as I've ever used it. 1091 00:48:21,375 --> 00:48:26,685 I've come across a few of them, like, you know, Ada, you know, the, uh, attention, 1092 00:48:27,165 --> 00:48:29,084 interest, desire, action or whatever. 1093 00:48:29,294 --> 00:48:30,495 There's a few, isn't there? 1094 00:48:30,495 --> 00:48:33,404 There's a few different frameworks out there that you can look at, but I think 1095 00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:39,495 the bottom line is, um, my, my sort of takeaway, I think from the conversation, 1096 00:48:39,495 --> 00:48:41,714 Christian, is email marketing. 1097 00:48:43,740 --> 00:48:47,009 I sort of got into a bit of a rut, and one of the things that you 1098 00:48:47,015 --> 00:48:49,919 can do to try and do something different is the plain text emails. 1099 00:48:50,310 --> 00:48:55,259 Uh, and just try and be a little bit different in how you write them. 1100 00:48:55,259 --> 00:49:00,029 Try and be a little bit more creative and try them and see what the responses are. 1101 00:49:00,035 --> 00:49:03,419 And you can do that probably with your existing email provider, like, um, 1102 00:49:03,419 --> 00:49:08,459 Klaviyo, um, or you know, Aweber or a few of the others that you mentioned. 1103 00:49:10,289 --> 00:49:12,765 So I'm intrigued by it. 1104 00:49:12,855 --> 00:49:17,055 Uh, and I'm intrigued by, um, how we can use this now as an e-commerce brand and 1105 00:49:17,055 --> 00:49:20,775 how we, we might sort of try and mix this up and change things around a little bit. 1106 00:49:21,255 --> 00:49:22,455 So thank you for that. 1107 00:49:22,575 --> 00:49:26,055 Um, I'm kind of curious, I ask this question, uh, to all my 1108 00:49:26,055 --> 00:49:28,725 guests at the moment, Christian, cause I'm really curious to the 1109 00:49:28,725 --> 00:49:31,665 answer, uh, as I'm aware of time. 1110 00:49:33,525 --> 00:49:36,045 You're standing before a live audience, right? 1111 00:49:36,045 --> 00:49:38,175 You've just delivered your best keynote speech ever. 1112 00:49:38,475 --> 00:49:39,735 Um, the crowd's going wild. 1113 00:49:40,695 --> 00:49:43,005 You know, we're sponsored by the e-commerce cohort. 1114 00:49:43,455 --> 00:49:47,115 Um, these guys are sat there in front of you, you know, all the members 1115 00:49:47,115 --> 00:49:47,835 are sat there in front of you. 1116 00:49:47,835 --> 00:49:49,125 You've just delivered your keynote. 1117 00:49:50,295 --> 00:49:54,705 And so you take a sort of a little bow and you go, Listen, this is fantastic. 1118 00:49:54,735 --> 00:49:57,839 I would just like to thank dot, dot, dot. 1119 00:49:58,170 --> 00:50:00,779 Um, yes, because without them I wouldn't be here. 1120 00:50:00,839 --> 00:50:05,069 Um, whether that's a book, a podcast, a mentor, family member 1121 00:50:05,430 --> 00:50:08,640 who is on your list, I'm curious. 1122 00:50:10,185 --> 00:50:12,765 Christian Simovic: Yeah, I have to say it's probably my copy chief at the moment. 1123 00:50:12,884 --> 00:50:14,384 Um, his name's John Brandt. 1124 00:50:14,565 --> 00:50:15,345 He's very slept on. 1125 00:50:15,345 --> 00:50:16,154 He's a very good writer. 1126 00:50:16,154 --> 00:50:17,415 He doesn't promote himself enough. 1127 00:50:17,625 --> 00:50:20,985 Um, um, his name is just John Brandt. 1128 00:50:21,015 --> 00:50:21,435 Copy. 1129 00:50:21,795 --> 00:50:23,535 Uh, he's, he's an exceptional copywriter. 1130 00:50:23,715 --> 00:50:27,975 He really, I work for one of, like, as a client, one of my clients is the podcast 1131 00:50:27,975 --> 00:50:32,205 factory and there's a group of writers and he's the copy chief and he really has 1132 00:50:32,355 --> 00:50:35,565 just transformed the way I look at copy and more importantly, business, honestly. 1133 00:50:36,060 --> 00:50:39,870 Um, you know, a lot of people like to spend money on coaches and masterminds, 1134 00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:43,260 and there's nothing wrong with that, but I, I don't think you, you can't 1135 00:50:43,260 --> 00:50:45,450 beat like one-on-one mentorship. 1136 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,620 That's why it's so hard to find though. 1137 00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:50,490 But if you can, you know, having a mentor really is game changing 1138 00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:51,960 for any kind of business really. 1139 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:57,240 Matt Edmundson: So, John is your, John Brandt is your mentor then, Um, I'm 1140 00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,010 curious, what does that relationship look? 1141 00:50:59,070 --> 00:50:59,610 Oh, unofficial. 1142 00:50:59,610 --> 00:51:01,260 But what does that relationship look like? 1143 00:51:02,610 --> 00:51:03,960 Christian Simovic: Yeah, so for the most part, you. 1144 00:51:04,650 --> 00:51:08,040 It's, it's not, We kind of met in a weird circumstances, like 1145 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,070 it wasn't like I was signing up for a mentor program or anything. 1146 00:51:11,070 --> 00:51:13,529 It was more or less I was working for this client. 1147 00:51:13,770 --> 00:51:17,310 We have a group of writers and then at the time, he stepped up to be the 1148 00:51:17,310 --> 00:51:18,750 editor, I guess, of all of our writing. 1149 00:51:19,140 --> 00:51:22,695 Um, He edits the writing and then, you know, he also does similar to 1150 00:51:22,695 --> 00:51:24,315 me email, freelance copywriting. 1151 00:51:24,405 --> 00:51:27,225 Um, I kind of just asked him a few questions and he's very receptive 1152 00:51:27,225 --> 00:51:30,405 to my ideas and asking questions, and he's always, always free to 1153 00:51:30,405 --> 00:51:33,675 jump on a call or, you know, provide a bit of advice in, in the dm. 1154 00:51:33,675 --> 00:51:37,845 So yeah, it's, um, I, I never like, to be honest, I never would've 1155 00:51:37,850 --> 00:51:38,955 thought that this would've happened. 1156 00:51:38,985 --> 00:51:43,695 You know, it's not like, it's not like I kind of, you know, press X to get mentor. 1157 00:51:44,045 --> 00:51:47,785 It is just kind of, it just naturally occurred and yeah, I'm forever grateful. 1158 00:51:48,275 --> 00:51:48,555 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 1159 00:51:48,745 --> 00:51:49,875 That's really interesting. 1160 00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:50,625 So, John, thank you. 1161 00:51:50,865 --> 00:51:54,705 If you're listening to the show, um, I, I'm always intrigued by 1162 00:51:54,705 --> 00:51:57,825 the response people have, uh, when I ask em this question. 1163 00:51:58,395 --> 00:52:01,995 So, um, Christian, listen, uh, how do people reach you? 1164 00:52:01,995 --> 00:52:03,755 How do they connect with, if they want to do so? 1165 00:52:05,279 --> 00:52:05,460 . Christian Simovic: Yeah. 1166 00:52:05,460 --> 00:52:05,580 Yeah. 1167 00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:07,230 So I have my, um, my email list. 1168 00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:08,549 It should have been in the show notes somewhere. 1169 00:52:08,609 --> 00:52:10,140 Um, sign up to my email list. 1170 00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:11,279 I provide daily. 1171 00:52:11,310 --> 00:52:13,290 That's daily Email tips. 1172 00:52:13,350 --> 00:52:14,310 Email tips and tricks. 1173 00:52:15,029 --> 00:52:17,940 Matt Edmundson: And you have to, right after, just after this conversation, 1174 00:52:17,940 --> 00:52:19,330 you've gotta provide a daily email. 1175 00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:20,279 Christian Simovic: Yeah, yeah. 1176 00:52:20,279 --> 00:52:21,359 Holding me to account now. 1177 00:52:21,390 --> 00:52:24,600 Um, but yeah, it's, it's daily email tips, but more importantly, more 1178 00:52:24,690 --> 00:52:26,369 marketing tips more than anything. 1179 00:52:26,539 --> 00:52:28,109 Email and just general marketing tips. 1180 00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:30,900 Um, because marketing really is, the fundamental. 1181 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,080 Email is just a tool to get you there, but you know, the fundamentals is marketing. 1182 00:52:35,220 --> 00:52:35,760 Matt Edmundson: That's great. 1183 00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:38,160 Um, how long does it take you to write those emails? 1184 00:52:39,690 --> 00:52:40,740 Christian Simovic: So it depends. 1185 00:52:40,740 --> 00:52:42,660 At the start it took me about an hour or two. 1186 00:52:42,660 --> 00:52:43,830 There was a lot of second guessing. 1187 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,980 Um, but when you don't spell check, maybe 30 minutes or so. 1188 00:52:47,650 --> 00:52:52,020 No, I like my 30 minutes to 40 minutes, depending if it's research top, like 1189 00:52:52,020 --> 00:52:53,670 research late and then probably longer. 1190 00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:56,220 But if it's more of just a rant style email, probably 30 minutes. 1191 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:57,630 Matt Edmundson: Fantastic. 1192 00:52:58,259 --> 00:53:04,410 Well, we, uh, will of course link to Christian's, uh, links in the show notes, 1193 00:53:04,410 --> 00:53:08,010 which you can get for free, along with a transcript at ecommercepodcast.net. 1194 00:53:08,340 --> 00:53:10,680 Or if you're signed up to our email newsletter, we don't 1195 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,960 email you every day maybe yet. 1196 00:53:12,990 --> 00:53:15,330 Maybe, uh, need to rethink this. 1197 00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:18,960 Uh, but if you wanna sign up to our email newsletter, you can get 1198 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,710 all of this direct to your inbox automagically as it comes out. 1199 00:53:23,970 --> 00:53:24,420 So, yeah. 1200 00:53:24,420 --> 00:53:28,350 Christian, thank you, uh, so much for joining us on the podcast. 1201 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:29,850 It's been great. 1202 00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:34,330 Uh, and I think really challenging because what you've done here irrespective of 1203 00:53:34,350 --> 00:53:35,850 whether people agree with you or not. 1204 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,780 Um, you've challenged the norm, you've challenged the default, and you've said 1205 00:53:39,780 --> 00:53:41,340 people think about this a little bit. 1206 00:53:41,820 --> 00:53:43,380 Uh, and I've got a lot of respect for that. 1207 00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:46,440 So well done, and thank you for coming onto the show and sharing your thoughts. 1208 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:48,105 Christian Simovic: Appreciate it, Matt. 1209 00:53:48,105 --> 00:53:49,305 It was really Max Matt. 1210 00:53:50,505 --> 00:53:50,895 Good fun. 1211 00:53:51,195 --> 00:53:51,785 It was good fun. 1212 00:53:52,035 --> 00:53:55,635 And I think I gotta check out, um, Gabby's podcast to see if I 1213 00:53:55,635 --> 00:53:56,985 can be more polarizing next time. 1214 00:53:56,985 --> 00:54:00,105 Cause I gotta be the most, I gotta be, I dunno who. 1215 00:54:00,450 --> 00:54:01,950 The Alex Jones of email writing. 1216 00:54:01,950 --> 00:54:02,490 That's what I wanna be. 1217 00:54:02,984 --> 00:54:03,149 Yeah. 1218 00:54:03,149 --> 00:54:03,450 In fact. 1219 00:54:03,450 --> 00:54:04,529 Matt Edmundson: Well, it's good to have a goal, right? 1220 00:54:04,529 --> 00:54:05,250 It's good to have a goal. 1221 00:54:06,509 --> 00:54:07,700 So there you go. 1222 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:10,259 So there you have it. 1223 00:54:10,290 --> 00:54:12,419 What's a fantastic conversation. 1224 00:54:12,419 --> 00:54:14,460 Again, huge thanks to Christian for joining me. 1225 00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:18,980 Also, a big shout out to today's show sponsor, the e-commerce cohort. 1226 00:54:19,649 --> 00:54:23,109 Do head over to ecommercecohort.com. 1227 00:54:23,129 --> 00:54:26,759 That's all one word, dot com, ecommercecohort.com for more information 1228 00:54:26,759 --> 00:54:31,580 about this new type of community that you can and probably should join 1229 00:54:31,580 --> 00:54:33,530 if you are involved in e-commerce. 1230 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,820 Be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcast from because 1231 00:54:37,820 --> 00:54:42,590 we have yet more great conversations lined up, uh, like today's one with Christian, 1232 00:54:42,590 --> 00:54:44,870 and I don't want you to miss any of them. 1233 00:54:45,140 --> 00:54:49,670 And in case no one has told you yet today, dear listener. 1234 00:54:49,940 --> 00:54:52,480 You are awesome. 1235 00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:53,140 Yes you are. 1236 00:54:53,140 --> 00:54:55,030 It's just a burden you have to bear. 1237 00:54:55,090 --> 00:54:56,290 I have to bear, Christian has to bear it. 1238 00:54:56,290 --> 00:54:56,830 We're just awesome. 1239 00:54:56,830 --> 00:54:57,580 It's just the way it is. 1240 00:54:57,970 --> 00:55:01,300 Uh, and so, uh, you can take that with you throughout the rest of the day. 1241 00:55:01,660 --> 00:55:04,750 The E-Commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 1242 00:55:04,750 --> 00:55:08,080 You can find our entire archive of episodes, uh, on 1243 00:55:08,085 --> 00:55:09,520 your favorite podcast app. 1244 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,980 The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole, 1245 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,890 Estella Robin and Tim Johnson. 1246 00:55:15,220 --> 00:55:18,799 Our theme song is written by Josh Edmundson and my good self. 1247 00:55:19,129 --> 00:55:22,715 Uh, and as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head 1248 00:55:22,715 --> 00:55:25,935 over to the website ecommercepodcast.net. 1249 00:55:26,225 --> 00:55:30,725 And also, if you haven't signed up for our weekly newsletter, maybe 1250 00:55:30,905 --> 00:55:33,095 changing it to daily, hashtag the same. 1251 00:55:33,545 --> 00:55:34,715 Uh, that's it from me. 1252 00:55:34,715 --> 00:55:35,735 That's it from Christian. 1253 00:55:35,945 --> 00:55:38,135 Thank you so much for joining us. 1254 00:55:38,285 --> 00:56:02,985 Have a fantastic week, uh, wherever you are, and I will see you next time. 1255 00:56:03,015 --> 00:56:08,725 Bye for now.