Welcome to the VPLR podcast, the show

where we bring you actionable health

advice from leading minds.

I'm your host Rob.

My guest today is Morley Robbins, creator

of the Root Course Protocol, founder of

the Magnesium Advocacy Group, and a

leading educator in the interplay of

minerals like copper, iron,

and magnesium in human health.

Morley's work challenges conventional

views on iron deficiency and pushes us to

understand mineral balance as central to

energy production, immune

function, and chronic disease.

Expect to learn why copper and

ceruloplasmin are essential

regulators of iron metabolism,

how mineral imbalances can drive fatigue,

oxidative stress, and dysfunctional

hormonal health, and practical strategies

to better understand and manage copper

and iron balance in

your own health journey.

Now, on to the

conversation with Morley Robbins.

Good morning Morley, and

thanks for being here today.

This one's been a long time coming, and

I'm glad we found time to finally dig

into everything copper and iron today.

Now, I was fortunate enough to have a

chance to listen to you

lecture in London a few months ago.

It was an amazing experience, and I

learned a lot especially about copper as

it pertains to sort

of post viral fatigues.

Of course, I don't want to get ahead of

myself, and I know that today's

conversation will be aimed maybe more at

the basics, and then hopefully we can get

together at a later date and dig into

sort of more specific topics.

Anyway, before we start, would you mind

introducing yourself to those in the

audience who maybe aren't familiar with

you and your body of work?

Sure.

Well, thank you for the opportunity, and

it's great to meet you, and look forward

to our discussion now,

and maybe going forward.

I'm Morley Robbins.

I may affectionately refer to

myself as a pre-med retread.

I had designs of going to medical school,

and a very good friend of mine, Ben

Edwards, who's a physician in Texas,

said, "It's a blessing you

didn't go to medical school."

I said, "Why is that?"

He said, "Because you

didn't get indoctrinated."

That's allowed me to ask different

questions of the research, of the

literature that's out there, and it's

been a fascinating experience on the

heels of 32 years of working in hospitals

and hospital consulting firms to then

step out of that role and become a

self-taught mineral expert.

I don't have the good housekeeping seal

of approval of any particular program.

I've just relied on the literature,

and the good fortune of passion and

drive, and the staying power of over

10,000 articles now,

I've learned a thing or two.

I wouldn't say that I have total recall

of 10,000 articles, but

I have a lot of recall.

One of my gifts as a consultant was

pattern recognition.

I was able to take data and extrapolate

it, take information and massage it and

synthesize, what is

this really telling us?

I've done that over the course of the

last 16 years and have assembled a very

unique perspective of how

does the body really work.

You have two largely competing paradigms.

There's attack the guest

and strengthen the host.

Attack the guest is the more

conventional, let's throw a chemistry at

it, let's throw a drug at it, try to kill

that pathogen or that

toxin or whatever it might be.

But when you look into the millennia old

healing traditions, most of them are

based on what can we do

to strengthen the host.

That's really what I think is from that

philosophy that the root cause protocol

flows out of let's make sure we have the

right nutrients in our diet and in our

supplement routine to allow the body to

express its original intent.

Go back to original factory settings and

allow the body to express the energy.

We can have a stasis.

Yeah, to get

homeostasis, that's exactly right.

And so we ignore the

enemies and we ignite the energy.

It's a very different way of thinking

about it and I think it's refreshing but

it's also empowering.

Individuals realize I can do this and

that's really the driver from the get-go

has been how do we democratize healing?

How do we put the individual back in the

driver's seat and draw on practitioners

as a resource but not

necessarily as the be all and end all?

So it's been a fascinating

journey over the last 16 years.

Yeah, I've listened to podcasts and I've

obviously gone through your books and I

can attest just the way you think through

problems and it's just a delight to see

that how you sort of, how do I say it,

sort of restructured the paradigm.

I mean, we're talking about that a second

ago off air and I think you've just

created a whole new narrative or again

paradigm to start thinking

through these sorts of problems.

And yeah,

when you were speaking,

the two terms just sort of came to head

or came to top of mind or one I suppose

and that is a sort of idea

of terrain and germ theory.

I was about to say, do you sort of

subscribe to that model?

It's a little off track and maybe not

quite the question I was

going to start with but

do you feel that there is an aspect or

element of correctness to that?

Oh, absolutely.

I think it's a foundational philosophical

divide and what you've got, we're going

back to the debates between Béchamp and

Pasteur and for those who don't know,

Pasteur's PhD was a correspondence course

in pharmacology and Béchamp was the most

decorated scientist in Europe.

He had an MD and two PhDs, many, many

awards and of course Béchamp was taking

the position of the terrain theory and

Pasteur was focusing on the particle, the

pathogen and that's where the moneyed

interest was on the pathogen.

But I think the part that I think is a

nuance of Béchamp around the terrain

theory is he wasn't talking about,

sometimes it's referred to as the field,

he was talking about the energetic field.

And I think he didn't say it that way but

as I've studied his work and studied the

debates, I think that's where we have

this conflict of if you put an electron

microscope on a pathogen and you ignore

the energetic field that it's finding

itself, then you don't

understand the problem.

And the pathogen is a reflection of

what's the state of energy in this tissue

and the fact that the pathogen can morph

from bacteria to virus

to fungus to parasites.

It's like that's mind-blowing to think

about but it does as the pH changes and

it's just and what so the

thing is what does pH stand for?

What's potential for hydrogen?

Well actually it's potential for oxygen

and the really critical

issue is when oxygen is available

and it can be activated by copper, you

make energy and the peak of energy

production is at the pH of 7 because

that's when O2 is most

available for activation.

But if you have,

if the pH starts to drop or rise,

the energy yield drops off and that's

when the pathogens wake up.

So I think the that whole concept is a

critical foundation for understanding

where is all this unrest in our body

coming from, this lack of homeostasis,

it's lack of energy and we're

yeah to me it's that simple.

Yeah and thank you for setting that up.

That was the perfect segue into my next

question really which is to sort of

really sort of maybe take a deeper dive

into why you think we are facing such a

high prevalence of chronic

disease in society today.

Now I believe your core thesis is that

disease stems from oxidative distress due

to mitochondrial dysfunction

caused by mineral imbalances.

I think anyway I could be off the mark.

Could you explain this a little more?

We've got a pretty savvy audience so the

details are good-ish just as long as we

don't start talking about sort of ion

channel polarizational anything like that

that up until that

point I think we're golden.

Yeah no I think it's the catch phrase is

mitochondrial dysfunction.

Okay that's like saying okay we're on

planet earth now and we want to we want

to climb a mountain.

Well we got to get a little more specific

about where we're headed and the reason

why we're on this

planet is because of copper.

It's not complicated.

Prior to copper's ascension,

prior to the great oxygen event, the

world was dominated by iron and sulfur.

And cyanobacteria began to engage in

photosynthesis with this

bright shiny object in the sky.

Why that started I don't think anyone's

really been able to identify the origin

of that but when that took place oxygen

began to be given off by those organisms.

It went into the primordial sea and then

when the seedbed filled up it would pop

into the atmosphere.

Now we exist right now with about what is

it 21 oxygen in the air.

It's fluctuated over the billions of

years but it's now we're

hovering around 21 percent.

But when the great oxygen event took

place allegedly 3.4 billion years ago I'm

always amazed at the astrobiologists and

their precision for

identifying these dates.

But when that happened when there was one

tenth of one percent of oxygen in the air

it wiped out 99.9 percent of life on the

planet because it was all anaerobic.

Oxygen it's a very reactive element.

It's the second most

reactive element after fluorine gas.

It loves to play with electrons

especially if those electrons

happen to be involving iron.

And copper's gift to the planet was the

ability to work with iron and oxygen at

the same time and not create

static, not create a reaction.

And out of that situation was born

several critical chemicals.

One of them was an enzyme the

classification is called

multi-copper oxidases, MCOs.

And probably the I would argue is

probably one of the most important is

called cytochrome C oxidase and that's

obviously what's running complex for.

And that's where oxygen gets turned into

two molecules of water at the pH of

seven, critical pH of seven because

that's the optimal peak of energy

production to allow ADP,

3 ADP to go over to complex five to

become 3 magnesium ATP.

Now the part that's a little nuanced and

it's very important for people to

understand is that cytochrome C oxidase

is like the stove in your home.

What's the stove made of?

Iron.

Made out of steel and cytochrome C

oxidase has a lot of iron in it, a lot of

iron sulfur clusters.

Actually two where there's two iron

sulfur clusters there's two heme groups,

forgive me, two heme groups.

But there's also three copper atoms and

so think about your stove at home.

Does the stove know what's for dinner?

No.

Does the stove know what

temperature to put the oven on?

No.

Does the stove know

which burner to turn on?

No.

And the world of convention has put a

spotlight on the stove of the

mitochondria and completely ignored the

chef that runs the show.

And in this case it's cytochrome C

oxidase and it has a celebrated function

of bringing in four hydrogen atoms or

protons, four electrons and voila in one

step creating two molecules of water.

That I think it's the most important

chemical reaction on the planet releases

the ADP at that point.

And you don't hear people talking about

that in the world of convention.

They love to talk about mitochondrial

dysfunction and they don't talk about the

55 or more solute transport carriers,

many of which are energy dependent.

They don't talk about cideroflexin, which

is really important

transport mechanism for iron.

I'm not familiar with that cideroflexin.

Cideroflexin.

I just learned it last week.

All right.

It's brand new to me.

I've never heard the

term before, I must admit.

It's going to make your toes curl when

you find out what it does.

What it does is it lets

iron into the mitochondria.

Oh wow.

Yeah, maybe not.

Right.

And so then we've got cideroflexin coming

in, allowing the iron in, and then we

have what are called ABC transporters,

ABC B8 in particular, but there's a whole

series of ATP transporters

that are pushing iron out.

What people don't, I don't think people

fully understand is that if the

mitochondria starts to accumulate iron,

which its tendency is to do,

the energy production collapses because

the oxygen is not available to be

activated to turn into water.

And you'll hear about hypoxia.

You've heard that term.

Definitely.

There's three different forms of hypoxia.

There's altitude.

We're at the top of Mount Everest.

The air is very thin.

It's kind of hard to

find oxygen out there.

There's a second form called pathogenic

hypoxia, and that's neutrophils.

Those are the marines of the immune

system that are using oxygen as a bullet,

turning it into an

oxidant to kill the pathogens.

Very important part of our immune system.

That function is copper

dependent, by the way.

That respiratory burst

function is copper dependent.

And then the third form of hypoxia that

no one talks about, I've only seen it in

one article, is functional hypoxia.

And what it really means is because of a

lack of bioavailable copper, and I think

it might also involve retinol, which we

can get into that as well,

the oxygen isn't

available to be activated.

It's become an oxidant.

It's become hydrogen peroxide, or it's

become the hydroxyl radical.

Or it's become superoxide

would be the starting point.

All of these, of course, being free

radicals that then cause various types of

cellular distress throughout the body.

Absolutely.

And we have mechanisms in our body to

neutralize them, but

they're all copper dependent.

And that isn't openly discussed in the

literature, except in

certain schools of thought.

Yeah, that was going to be

my next question, actually.

Coppers role as in support.

I know we'll get into this, maybe we can

catch into this rheoplasma a bit later,

but maybe copper's direct role to support

sort of mitochondrial

antioxidant activity.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong,

it's involved in the production of

mitochondrial sod or

superoxide just to be changed.

Is that correct?

That's exactly right.

So you have the beauty of copper.

It's a multifaceted,

many dimensional mineral

in terms of what it does.

But it's creating energy, right?

And it's killing the enemies,

one of them being, or another way to

think of it is creating

energy and then clearing exhaust.

Those oxygen molecules that have become

altered because of electron chemistry

aren't available to be activated and

become two molecules of water.

And so copper's gift in terms of our life

is the capacity to neutralize those

oxidants through superoxide dismutase

would be one of the most important.

And it's clearly involved in

mitochondrial production or

neutralization of mitochondrial acid,

superoxide, but also in glutathione

peroxidase and catalase.

I mean, the world is just a

flurry of thought now about

ferrooptosis.

Everyone's talking about ferrooptosis,

but there's a very easy way to stop it

with ferrooxidase enzyme from ceruloplasm

or glutathione peroxidase 4.

And not a lot of people that that

acknowledged impact.

Yeah.

Just for the audience, would you mind

breaking down ferrooptosis?

It is, can be quite a complex topic.

And I know that will probably sort of

might lead us to the

vitamin A discussion as well.

But yeah, would you mind

breaking down what that term is?

And this idea of sort of ion associated

sort of apoptosis, I suppose, or

pre-programmed cell death?

Exactly.

It's iron directed apoptosis.

It is the generation of lipid peroxides,

lipid peroxidation is, those are very

powerful oxidants that are going to

affect membrane integrity.

They're going to affect proteins.

It's going to create carbonylation would

be the technical term.

And it's also going to lead to the dings

of DNA inside the nucleus.

The relationship to the iron, again,

we're going back to sliteroflexin.

And if there's too much iron coming in,

and it starts to react with the membrane,

well, you're going to,

again, it's a chain reaction.

It isn't just, oh, it's

like a pinball machine.

And that iron, there's the steel ball

moving all around the the machine.

And it's got to be stopped.

It's got to be neutralized.

And one of the most important mechanisms

to stop that lipid

chain reaction is vitamin E.

It's the chain breaking antioxidant that

no one seems to talk about.

And there's a lot of concerns, as you

well know, about Puthis.

It's called feeding Puthis.

It's like, wait a

minute, let's back up a step.

You know, what are our cell membranes and

organelle membranes made out of?

Well, yeah, they're made out of Puthis.

And controlled oxidation.

Absolutely.

And so what is the match to

the fire of lipid peroxidation?

It's iron.

And that's documented in the literature,

I think it's 2008 and 2011.

It's just the scientists

know this deeper level of truth.

But it's not being brought to the

attention of students in the classroom

about how the body really works.

It really isn't Occam's razor, isn't it,

at the end of the day, the simplest

explanation on music, right?

One was sort of wrapped up in Puthis or

seed oils to be a bit

more colloquial about it.

That we're not sort of wondering why they

are becoming an issue.

I mean, historically, they shouldn't be.

I mean, it's not like throughout

evolution, nobody has

ever consumed seed oils.

And up until recently, they've never

really been a cause for concern.

And when looking at these sorts of

diseases that are metabolic in nature,

and excuse me, that are metabolic in

nature, yet all of a sudden, people are

happy to sort of try point to them as

being this root cause issue when

fundamentally, they're fairly benign, you

know, themselves, it's the oxidation of

them that's a problem.

And as you correctly pointed out, that's

being driven by this sort of this mineral

balance, this copper ion imbalance that's

sort of leading to

their excessive oxidation.

I suppose, while we're on the topic of

oxidation, it would be great to sort of

at least have an initial sort of chat

into the whole world of ceruloplasmin.

I think for those in the know, I think

people see it as potentially a copper

transporter, I might be correct, but it

plays just so many more roles in that.

It's as an example, it's an antioxidant.

Now, I know this is again, this is

something we chatted before, or about all

fair, but it's almost central to your

hypothesis in a sense.

Could you sort of, or at least briefly

just sort of work through the

ceruloplasmin story for the audience?

Can't wait.

It's a protein that was first identified

in the 1940s, beginning of 1940, 1941.

But it's the consistent reference is 1948

by Holmberg and Law.

And they had broken ground and they were

the ones that had done

the most research on it.

And it's a protein

that has 1046 amino acids.

It's not the biggest protein in the body,

but it's one of the biggest.

But what makes it unique is its

composition of copper

inside that protein.

And when it was first discovered, there

were eight atoms of copper.

And from 1948 to like 1975,

there were eight atoms of copper.

Then mysteriously in the 1970s, the

literature started to shift and say,

well, actually it's only seven copies.

A very mysterious change in the number.

And you say, well, they must have had

better diagnostic technique.

No, that's not at all.

And so then for 30 years,

it was seven atoms of copper.

And now in the around 2000,

it became six atoms of copper.

All the literature, all the recent

literature refers to seroloplasm having

six atoms of copper.

So put it in the context of your car.

If you've ever driven a V8,

you know how much power V8 has.

You take two cylinders out of the V8, it

doesn't ride the same.

It has a completely

different source of power.

And it just, it neuters

its strength as a car.

Well, that's what's

happening, I think, to seroloplasm.

Some of the most

revealing research was done by

two different teams.

One was a team out of Harvard,

Scheinberg and Stern and Eke.

This was in the 1960s.

What's very entertaining about that

research is here we have two preeminent

hematologists from Harvard Medical School

doing research at an AT&T Bell laboratory

in upstate New York.

Why were they studying human protein

metabolism of

seroloplasm in a phone laboratory?

I just find that utterly fascinating.

But there's a series of nine studies that

they published that revealed a lot about

what seroloplasm is doing.

And then some more critically important

research was done by Earl Frieden, who

was the dean of metal biology for decades

at Florida State

University here in the US.

And he, in the late 60s, 70s and 80s, did

a lot of studies about what

is the nature of this protein.

And what began to emerge is that, in

fact, there's 15 different

substrates for seroloplasm.

But this is just iron.

They work with copper.

It works with oxygen.

It works with phenol

groups, diphenol groups,

amine groups,

bioenergetic, biogenic amine.

It's staggering what

it's capable of doing.

All of the

catecholamines react with seroloplasm.

And what it means is that seroloplasm has

a unique ability to work with those

substrates to change their structure and

function, to make them beneficial,

turn on things, turn off things.

And I would argue it's one of the most

important mechanisms of

intelligence in our body.

And one example of the power of this is

that some interesting numbers,

36% of the Earth's composition is iron.

That's a lot of iron.

It is a lot of iron, yeah.

So over a third of the Earth has some

manifestation of iron.

And according to the latest research of

the World Health Organization,

to the extent that we can trust it, 27%

of Earthlings, it's a quarter of the

people on the planet, are anemic.

It's a lot of people.

That's 2 million people who can't

metabolize the number

one element on the planet.

And in 1971,

Dr.

Frieden wrote a very

important article about seroloplasm.

And he was doing research to see what

happens as the activity level of the

ferrooxidase enzyme dropped.

And so what we have to do is back up and

say, so we've got a seroloplasm protein

that can express itself in

nine different enzyme functions.

That's a very unique capability to have.

The whole basis of modern pharmacology is

one gene, one protein, one function.

Well, seroloplasm is one gene.

It is one protein, but

it's many, many functions.

Some say it might be as high as 20

different functions.

I'll keep it conservative.

I'm just saying nine.

I can identify those nineisms.

And then we find out that the one that

they always talk about in the literature

is ferrooxidase enzyme.

And what it's doing is it's oxidizing

ferrocyne plus 2, and we're

going to ferric iron plus 3.

In that ferric form, it can be either

loaded into ferritin for storage, or it

can be loaded onto a transfer for

transport back to the bone marrow so we

can make new red blood cells.

Very, very important

because we're doing that.

We've got to replace two and a half

million red blood cells

every second of every day.

Those are big numbers.

I have a friend who says, "Worly, there's

only three numbers, one, two, and a lot."

When you start talking about 2.5 million

a second, it's just people can understand

that, so it can't be that important.

That's usually what people will say.

I can't process it.

But that's one of the most important

aspects in our body is

that perpetual replacement.

And the Ceruloplasmic

expression is something that Dr.

Frieden really studied.

And when it went down to 10% of ideal

function as the ferrooxidase enzyme,

there was still healthy

hemoglobin production.

When it went down to 1%, 1% of ideal, it

was still functioning, but

it wasn't at the right level.

And what he asserted was that after seven

days of zero ferrooxidase function,

that's when anemia began

to present in the animals.

Anemia is lack of sufficient hemoglobin.

That's the real

clinical definition of anemia.

It's not red blood cells, it's lack of

hemoglobin in the red blood cell.

And is that what's then potentially

driving the iron deficient anemia?

Exactly.

And so again, it took seven days of zero

ferrooxidase expression to then trigger

the expression of anemia.

And here's the catch.

This is very important.

Low iron in a blood cell does not match

up with high iron

that's stuck in the tissue.

And that is ferrooxidase's gift to all

life is the ability to recycle iron.

That's what it's trying to do as we're

replacing 2.5 million red blood cells.

We've got to break them down, got to

release the iron, got to get it

transported back to the bone marrow.

And there are a lot of steps in between,

but this is completely lost in a world

that is preoccupied with dietary iron as

opposed to recycled iron.

And one of the most important statistics

as it relates to this whole dynamic is

that only one milligram of iron needs to

come through our diet.

24 of the 25 milligrams that are needed

every day to make that 200 billion red

blood cells every 24 hours.

24 of those 25 milligrams comes from the

recycling system that is

run and regulated by COPPA.

And so you've probably heard the phrase,

the simple lie versus the complex truth.

Everyone wants the simple lie.

It was Alex de Tocqueville who said it in

trans but centuries before

him it was Lao Tzu in China.

People would always prefer the simple lie

than the complex truth.

It's just easier to accept.

Well the simple lie is

that people are anemic.

The complex truth is I have access to

articles that to my satisfaction prove

that there's nine copper dependent enzyme

functions that contribute to "anemia"

that have nothing to do with iron.

And it's absolutely fascinating that the

world has been captivated by this idea of

low iron and has very little

understanding or awareness

that COPPA is running the show.

COPPA is the gem in the iron is the foot

soldier and that's not how it's presented

in the literature at all.

Yeah, it's the other way around and for

the most part people are more than happy

to just try and treat these conditions

ironically enough by well supplying the

body with more iron.

I suppose that's the

great irony there, isn't it?

Absolutely.

I mean it's just the world does not

understand that

copper iron interdependent

and if I were king for a day, if I had a

magic wand, I would require all studies

of iron to involve copper metabolism and

all studies of copper metabolism to

indicate its impact on iron.

We've got to get beyond and get people to

realize this interdependence that these

metals have in bringing up homeostasis

that you were referring

to at the very beginning.

Yeah, this sort of again, it's a common

theme in sort of biology as a whole.

Everybody sort of gets stuck in a sort of

a siloed in their own silo, don't they?

Irrespective of where you are and you

sort of end up missing, what's the

expression you end up missing the woods

for the tree, something to that extent?

Yeah, the site of the

forest for the trees.

There we go.

We had the pleasure of spending an

evening with Douglas Cowell who was a low

way down iron expert and when he was at

University of Manchester, his best friend

was Garth Cooper who was in

the office right next to him.

He was a world renowned

copper expert and according to Dr.

Cowell, they never talked shop.

What?

But I'll take him as word.

They just enjoyed each other's company.

They'd go to the pub

and let off some steam.

But it's like they didn't talk about how

their two research worlds were interwoven

in a very intimate way.

That's the challenge we've got around the

globe, is getting more people

to be aware of your curiosity.

So what are we missing?

What's the part that we

don't seem to understand?

I think it's this idea that somehow,

in my way of thinking,

copper's running the show.

But we're taught that it's toxic.

And when you get into the real bowels of

human metabolism especially,

it's undeniably central to

our health and physiology.

It makes no sense any other way.

And it's just not taught that way in any

school of nutrition or any kind of

doctor's school, whether you're

allopathic or homeopathic or

osteopathic or naturopathic.

Copper's not part of their vocabulary.

And as I was noting before we started the

formal part of the conversation, I've

seen five textbooks, not one mention of

this protein that you're

curious about, the ceruleoplasm.

And what's also important for people to

know is that it's

subject to modification.

It can get what's called denatrine so

that in the presence of ascorbic acid or

citric acid, it changes its structure and

the copper gets released.

In the presence of high glucose, blood

glucose, when blood

glucose gets above 120,

the denature of

ceruleoplasma, the copper's come out.

And so everyone is taught

to fear this unbound copper.

The copper's concentration in the blood

is one percent of the

copper's in the blood.

99% is in the tissue.

And if the copper is rising in the blood,

it means it's missing in the tissue.

And it's the absolute inverse of iron

that when iron is low in the blood, it

means it's stuck in the tissue.

That's just getting people to see the

symmetry of that and how that gets

represented in the testing.

But we don't have access to perfect

testing because at least here in the

States, we're not allowed to test for the

ferrooxidase enzyme function.

There are only a handful of countries in

the world that believe in allowing.

I don't think I've ever even seen it on a

lab request sheet, to be honest.

I suppose speaking of testing, you're a

proponent of a hair

mineral analysis in that respect.

Could you sort of briefly just walk us

through that and then maybe we could sort

of transition into your

protocol specifically?

Sure.

Been working with the hair tissue mineral

analysis from the beginning.

And my mentor in those early days, early

years, was a gentleman by

the name of Rick Malter.

He's a clinical psychologist.

And he had been using HGMA data for

decades, maybe three and a half decades.

And he was very quick to point out to me

that there's really two questions that

can be answered in a hair test.

One,

is this person under stress?

Very important because it will reveal

itself very quickly in the hair test.

And secondly, can this person mobilize

energy in the face of their stress?

And he developed something called the

Malter mix to normalize the results so

that you're seeing what's the actual

magnesium and what he was doing was

relative to its ideal,

actual calcium relative to its ideal.

And so the Malter mix is a great way to

level the data from the hair test because

it's very easy to be overwhelmed by that

trees versus forest dynamic.

And I think what my thinking really began

to change about the hair test was when I

realized that you can't measure

ceruloplasmin activity

or level in a hair test.

We can measure the mineral copper, but we

can't get to its protein

that really runs the show.

And so that's when I began to move into

the world of blood testing.

And it's not perfect because there's so

many restrictions on what we're allowed

to test in the blood, but it presented a

completely different perspective of

copper as it relates to

its influence in the body.

And so the hair test, I think it's an

absolutely vital source of broad

information because what you're looking

for is to what extent is this person's

mineral expression all over the map.

And the more it's all over the map, the

more stress they're dealing with

and that it's very easy to reveal, are

they making energy through the adrenal

ratio and the thyroid ratio, which is

kind of fun to see that.

And to me, that's where the rubber hits

the road is really relates to a famous

quote by, at least I think it's famous, a

quote by Mark Hyman about stress.

Stress is the body's inability to make

energy for the mind to

respond to its environment.

I think it's one of the most profound

definitions of what stress really is.

And what we've got to be able to do is

when you have stress in your world, I

guarantee you, you're going to have

oxidative stress in your body.

So then we're into functional hypoxia.

Suddenly the oxygen is not available to

be turned into water.

We can't make energy.

And then that's when all the symptoms

begin to surface, whether it's toxic

symptoms, pathogenic

symptoms, heavy metal symptoms.

That's when everything begins to flourish

is when we can't make the

requisite amount of energy.

And so when you look at a hair test and

you see this erratic picture, which is

very often the case,

what you really know is

that person's under stress.

Can they make energy?

Most can't.

How can we solve that?

That's what the root cause protocol is

all about is how do we reignite the

ability to make the energy so we can

respond to the stress and not resilience

in the face of that stress.

Perfect.

Molly, I could talk about

biochemistry with you all day.

However, I have a feeling the audience

would like something

maybe a little more practical.

So I'd love it if we could sort of maybe

dig more into what you're probably most

well known for, which is really your root

cause protocol, which you've developed on

sort of the back end of the research that

you've done for the last well, nearly two

decades at this point.

Could you walk us through the protocol?

I've got a bunch of questions of my own,

but which I'll interject, and I'll

interject along the

way when they come up.

But in a nutshell, how is your approach

to helping people overcome

various health challenges?

Well, working.

You know, having come out of the

conventional medical model,

where there's disease everywhere.

And I was involved in doing forecasts of

where was where were the

disease indexes going to go?

And they were all hockey

sticks waiting to take off.

I realized that there was something

fundamentally wrong or

something misunderstood.

And so that's what really pulled me into

this whole quest of, so how are we really

designed to work as a species

and I started out focusing on magnesium

because it's the first

mineral lost to stress.

And I was influenced by Carolyn Dean and

Mildred Sealeag and Gene Durlock and a

number of other famous researchers who

were able to connect the dots that

magnesium is the first to go, quickly

followed by the B vitamins.

We're under stress because they're water

soluble and they disappear very quickly.

And so that morphed into trying to

understand, well, what are

the biggest sources of stress?

And then I find out that there was an

article by an Italian team of researchers

that revealed that iron stress is the

greatest stress on planet earth.

I went, wait a minute.

And then I began to sync it up with the

research about the great oxygen event.

So I got iron and oxygen.

And then I really began to delve into, so

how do we stop that?

And it's copper.

Back to our earlier discussion.

Copper, when it's bioavailable, when it's

usable, when it's attached to its

appropriate spectrum of enzymes, is able

to neutralize the

static and create the energy.

And so I set out to, so how do we make

copper bioavailable?

We got to have ceruleal plasma.

And I was reading an article

by Ray Peat, who's recognized

since passed on, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah, right.

But this goes back 10 years ago.

And it was a wonderful

article about iron overload.

He wrote several articles, but this one

particularly was

focusing on iron overload.

And at the end, towards the end, he said,

"To my knowledge, no one has ever

developed a recipe to increase the

production of ceruleal plasma."

That was a red flag

in front of this bull.

I said, "Well, that's

what I'm going to do.

I'm going to create that recipe."

And at the beginning, I knew that it was

going to be important to have things to

stop doing and start doing, in large part

because of a conversation I had with my

oldest son, who was an engineer.

He said, "Dad, you got to

tell people what to stop doing.

You got to tell them

what to start doing."

I went, "Oh, okay, stops and starts."

And so at the beginning, there were two

stops and two starts.

And the two key principle stops were stop

taking iron supplements

and stop taking vitamin D.

You can imagine the

heretical stance I was taking.

But go ahead.

Sorry, I was just going to say, what for

the audience is the issue there with

vitamin D specifically?

Well, it's just what we're proposing is a

balanced blend through catholic oil to

get both retinol and vitamin D.

Don't take a vitamin D

supplement standing alone.

In our solution.

Yeah, it's just not an advisable.

And there's a whole masterclass that I

have on the downside of vitamin D.

The people are

welcome to purchase online.

It's not very expensive, but it goes into

about an hour and a half of, "Here's what

you don't know about vitamin D."

There's a whole other side to it.

And so it's evolved over the, I guess,

probably 10, 12 years.

It's evolved into about a

dozen stops and a dozen starts.

And for those who are interested, just go

to the website, rcp123.org.

Go to the resources tab.

And then there's a starter guide.

It's the latest version of our getting

people started on the root

cause protocol that is printable.

You can put it up on your fridge or

wherever you want to post it

so you can keep track of it.

But all you have to do is donate your

email address and we'll send you the

record of the guide itself.

And it's really been met

with a lot of gratitude.

A lot of people are very grateful for it.

And it lays out not just the stops and

starts, but there's a schedule.

What should you do when?

And it answers some

of the basic questions.

There are other resources.

You can get the RCP

handbook, which is 84 pages long.

So the starter guide is 12 pages.

There's an 84 page.

These are both free.

There's no charge.

We're just, we're giving away the answer.

And it just takes

discipline to work with it.

And it takes a willingness to step out of

the box of convention that

tells you do this, do that.

When in fact, no, you don't, you don't

want to take ascorbic acid.

You don't want to take calcium.

You don't want to take vitamin D alone.

Okay.

To take a kind of oil.

And then the flip side being, it's

important to take whole food, vitamin C.

It's important to take magnesium and make

sure you've got minerals in your water

and so on and so forth.

And what we found, it's

absolutely fascinating.

People who just do the stops,

when they do those dozen or so stops,

they find that they

actually start to feel better.

And then as they start to adopt, we have

a phased introduction of the starts.

That's when the magic starts to happen.

And it's across the board.

It's, you know, the whole concept of the

root cause protocol is profiled in my

book, Cure Your Tea.

And again, the basis of that is there's

20,000 symptoms that are

profiled in the Merck manual.

That that's the Bible of medicine is the

Merck manual and the description of all

those 20,000 problems.

But what do they all begin with?

Oxidative stress.

The oxygen is not

being turned into water.

And when that happens, it sets up, it

sets the stage for symptoms.

And depending upon where it's happening,

whether it's in your mind or in, or your

brain, I should say, or your kidney or

your elbow or wherever it happens to be.

And it's called something different in

the Merck manual, but

it's all one origin.

And it's the three ring circus of the

world as I know it, is copper and iron

and oxygen, not playing well together.

And when they don't, they create this

spectrum disorder that

we call chronic disease.

And so the RCP is really

designed to empower people to

take control of their situation.

And we have

recommendations about an ancestral diet.

We don't get into the the fevered pitch

of ketosis versus paleo versus whatever,

you know, follow the tenets of Weston A.

Price.

He was a very brilliant scientist, gifted

dentist, but he was a very, very profound

scientist who studied what, what did the

original communities

eat to have perfect teeth?

And why was he

obsessed with perfect teeth?

Because he knew that

when we're a little fetus,

we start out with 32 buds and the 32 buds

split and become 64 buds and 32 become

our teeth and the

other 32 become our spine.

And he knew that perfect teeth and

perfect spine and perfect health.

And so I just think it's important for

people to realize that there is this

legacy of recommendations out there.

And we can get into all sorts of

religious wars about

nuances of the of the food system.

The manisha.

Yeah, it's exhausting, as you well know.

But I think the goal is to try to

simplify this message and simplify the

process so that people can in fact regain

mastery of their physiology

as we as we are designed to do.

I believe that we are sovereign

individuals and we're meant to have this

independence of action,

independence of thought.

And when you eat the right foods and you

have the right supplements, it enlivens

the innate healer within us.

And I'm not to say that, not suggesting

that we no longer have stress.

We will always have stress

as long as we're above ground.

But what we can do is neutralize that

stress with a level of

proficiency and efficiency.

And when the minerals are optimized, and

we've got an ability to curb the stress

that's around us, whether it would be

environmental stress, physical stress,

biological, I mean, there's many

different forms, but the body has this

capacity to heal itself under all those

types of conditions.

Yeah, no, it's a very adapted, sort of

regulating itself and re-finding

homeostasis when the

opportunity presents itself.

But as you've alluded to multiple times,

the moment there are breaks in

mitochondrial efficiency or high levels

of oxidative stress in the body, then

it's essentially almost, well, very

literally putting out fires.

And it's not in a position to really

regain its fundamental structure.

So essentially what you're saying is that

it's a tad more complicated than just

popping a couple of capsules of copper

glycinate every day, but it's still very

doable for the average person.

Just a sort of a quick tangent, speaking

of healing modalities, what are your

thoughts on molecular hypogem?

It's doing the rounds at the moment, and

it does seem to have quite a lot, it does

seem to be quite effective, both from

supporting mitochondrial function

directly and through its sort of actions

as a sort of selective antioxidant.

Do you feel that that

potentially has a place in,

well, either in your

protocol or in health in general?

That's a wonderful question.

And I'm often asked about molecular

hydrogen or ozone therapy or other

add-ons, if you will.

I tend to take a very

conservative stance.

Most of those modalities are designed by

scientists or practitioners who have no

deep knowledge of copper metabolism and

what the endearing role

of copper is on the planet.

As it relates to the hydrogen,

what's the primary source of hydrogen

protons in our body?

It's the mitochondria.

Complexes 1, 3, and 4 are pumping

hydrogen constantly, right?

That's their job.

Now, what most people don't know, I think

the literature is very selective about

what it reveals, but complex 1, 3, 4, and

5 are all copper dependent.

I mean, 99% of articles will say that

it's only complex 4, but there's

compelling research around complexes 1,

3, and 5 that no one likes to talk about

because it begins to spoil the show.

Yeah,

exactly.

And so I'm well aware of in a lab setting

that hydrogen can

neutralize the hydroxyl radical.

I think it's a little bit of a stretch to

say it's going to happen in a biological

system because we happen to put

hydrogenated water into our body.

My limitation is I'm not a

chemist, not a biochemist.

I don't pretend to be a biochemist.

I'm trying to think

like our ancestors did.

How do I maintain a level of vitality

through my diet, through my

self-reoutine, manage my stress, both

what I can control in the outside world

and my inside world and

just go about my business.

I get nervous when people start to reach

out for different modalities because it

sets the stage for two things.

One, I don't think we fully know what

those hydrogen protons are doing.

And the other side of it is when you

start to adopt all these different

approaches, basically what you're telling

the body is, "I don't really trust you.

I don't think you really

know what you're doing.

Let me give you an inducement.

Let me enhance what you're doing."

And it sounds silly,

but I think the body says,

"Well, why are you asking me to get

involved if you think

you know the answer?"

And the problem we've got is that you and

I are engaged in what I would call a very

switched-on conversation, exchanging

information at about

2,000 bits per second.

That's pretty fast.

The part of the brain that runs our body,

the hypothalamus, thinks a million times

faster than you and I can talk.

And I think it's a very bold thought to

say, "Well, I read this article on the

internet and I need to do this."

I think the body knows what to do.

It lacks the nutrients to make the energy

to run the immune system

to regulate homeostasis.

And I just take a very conservative

stance that I'd rather let the body run

itself than me start.

And again, there are

recommendations in the RCP.

But these are,

the stops are to eliminate what never

existed in the food system before.

And the starts are to try to restore

normalcy and sanity in the food system

that our ancestors had full advantage of.

That's very basic.

And I think it's also,

we could easily add 50

other items to the RCP.

Well, then we have a compliance issue.

Just getting people to do 12 things.

The basics.

Yeah, just doing the basics.

And so there's a trade-off.

And so I recognize the popularity of the

hydrogen water, but I had the good

fortune of spending a day with a world

renowned consultant to

the natural food industry.

And during the course of that day,

his first name was Michael.

He said morally,

"People always ask

me, Michael, what's new?

What's new?"

And he said, "I've

learned to ask what's enduring."

And he said, "I would strongly

advise you to start

focusing on what's enduring."

And it was really out of that

conversation that I stumbled into the

research about the great oxygen event.

And that completely changed my

understanding of the problem and the

realization of what

copper's role is on the planet.

And I would argue that people relying on

hydrogen water are

probably copper deficient

without the benefit of testing, because

the copper knows how to pump hydrogen.

The mechanism of making stomach acid, the

mechanism of recycling red blood cells,

requires acidification.

Well, that whole

process is copper dependent.

And what's it doing?

It's pumping hydrogen into these vacuoles

to allow change to take place.

These hydrogen atoms

don't come from Mars.

They're coming from copper enzymes that

are designed through the

ages to support our physiology.

That's a very concise

answer, not one I expected.

So thank you.

Morley, I've got some follow ups to you.

Well, maybe some other viewpoints I'd

love to get your opinion on.

But before we get to that, all those

particular viewpoints, I suppose I'd love

to kind of get your thoughts on trauma

and the central nervous system and

dysfunction there in general.

It's something I'm starting to see more

and more when I either work with people

or, I suppose, myself as well, but the

fact that people for the most part, when

they're following a protocol, often make

at least some liver improvement.

But unless they actually start to deal

with a lot of the emotional side of

things, the past traumas they've been

through, they never really start to heal.

Could you weigh in here?

Do you have any thoughts on any

techniques that you feel are effective at

helping people to overcome trauma,

assuming you think it's

an issue to begin with?

Oh, it's very real.

And again, I go back to

my mentor, Rick Malter.

He wanted to make sure that I understood

that the hair test was a window into the

person's stress profile.

And very, very important.

We're all under stress.

You and I are both under stress.

We're having a lovely conversation, but

everyone we know is under stress.

Everyone we don't know is under stress

because that's the human condition.

And when I started this work many years

ago, I was very Newtonian.

I actually have a, my grandmother's

brother's name was Newton Matthews.

Our ancestry is back in England.

And family legend has it that we're

related to Sir Isaac Newton, although he

didn't have any children.

So it's one of his collab with brother or

sister or something.

Somewhere we're

related to Sir Isaac Newton.

But I was very Newtonian, in my view.

There's some physical event missing.

It's a nutrient.

It's a vitamin.

Something is not there.

Over the course of 16

years, I've become very quantum,

realizing that at the very heart of all

this physical imbalance is emotional

unrest, which is very energetically

driven, as you well know.

And I think it's very, very

important to address that.

And so for years,

we've been talking about

the importance of dumping fear, because

that's the granddaddy emotion of all, is

that when you have a chronic condition

that doesn't resolve, doesn't respond to

the recommended path, you

begin to doubt yourself.

And you begin to think, well, there must

be something wrong with my body, or I'm

not doing it right, or I'm being punished

by God, or something to those effects.

And so that conjures up fear.

And we spell it differently

in the RCP, F E hyphen, A R.

And that way you see the symbol for iron.

And when you're under stress,

you become a magnet for iron.

Now we've been saying this for years, but

it's only been in the last month that I

have definitive

physiological proof that it happens.

And there's an enzyme in our body

that you may have heard

of called furin, F U R I N.

And it's what's called

a protein convertase.

It's a very ancient mechanism.

It's not as old as ceruleoplasma, though.

It's not as old as the PAM enzyme, which

is a very powerful enzyme in

our body for making change.

But furin has a unique ability to

activate the iron

hormone called hepcidin.

And now hepcidin is

what I call, was not me.

It's known as a negative

regulator in iron metabolism.

And ferrooxidase in the ceruleoplasmic

enzyme, ceruleoplasmic proteins, excuse

me, would be known as

a positive regulator.

Well, looking back on our childhood, our

parents were the positive

regulators in our upbringing.

A negative regulator

would be a SWAT team.

And what the world of convention wants us

to believe is that SWAT teams are running

iron metabolism and not our parents,

which makes no sense at all.

But the important thing to understand is

that when hepcidin starts to flex its

muscles, in response to furin enzyme that

is triggered by stress, and the form of

stress that triggers it the most is

social defeat stress,

otherwise known as PTSD.

Go back five years ago.

The world was engaged in PTSD.

Just a bit.

Just a bit.

And so furin was off the chart.

Hepcidin off the chart.

Iron regulation was completely gone.

And so I renamed COVID.

COV stands for Coppers Vanished.

ID stands for Irons Disregulated.

And what your listeners need to make sure

they understand is that when copper is

down, iron takes off inside the body.

And so

the mind and our psyche will convince us

that we're under stress, which is only

going to feed the

problem of iron regulation.

And so that's why dealing with the

emotional side of the equation is so

important, which most

people want to ignore.

They want to stay away from their

psychological or emotional trauma.

And I get that.

We've all had some very severe trauma

that we want to pretend didn't happen.

But when you are able to engage in

emotional release techniques, like motion

code or body code,

integrative processing technique or EFT,

it's tremendously liberating because it

releases the fear that

you've done something wrong.

And it then says, as long as you're in a

state of fear, you're

in a sympathetic state.

Well, guess what doesn't happen in a

sympathetic nervous system?

Healing.

You can't heal and run from

the bear at the same time.

So you have to be in a

parasympathetic state.

And so that's the dilemma is we're living

in a society where most people 24 seven

are in sympathetic overdrive.

And lurking in the background, this is

enzyme that no one talks about.

Furen.

It's a very sophisticated audience who

would know what that is.

And then influencing

hepsidin, very few people know about.

But here's the most important part is

when hepsidin is elevated and activated.

Furetin is low because they

ride on a sea salt together.

And so who taught me that?

Douglas Kell.

I was about to say because Furetin is an

acute phase reaction, isn't it?

So that would then make sense as to why

it's an acute phase reactant, obviously.

Exactly.

Beautifully said.

And so what's the one consistent mistake

being made worldwide about Furetin?

That low Furetin means

you're not storing enough iron.

You need more iron or an infusion.

Why don't call them infusions anymore?

They're invasions.

And it's a very serious problem on the

planet that because people don't know

that there's nine copper dependent

enzymes to regulate the production and

the recycling of iron in the blood.

And all we do is

default to you need more iron.

No consideration given to these nine

different expressions

of miles per gallon.

Because you can put, you know, if you're

having trouble with your mileage,

you can fill the car up with gas.

And it's not going to

get better mileage, is it?

You've got to change

tire pressure, timing.

You've got to change a lot of factors in

the engine and in the car's performance

to get better mileage.

But throwing more gas in the

car is not going to solve it.

And that's the mentality of most

practitioners, whether they're doctors or

nutritionists or whoever, they have been

taught singularly, you need more iron.

It's like, really?

That is, to me, that's the foundation of

where the breakdown is in healing today,

is believing that dynamic that only iron

will solve a low

representation of iron in a blood test.

When in fact, I did this just the other

day, I was with a buddy of

mine who's very good at AI.

And I said, Steve,

what are the top 10 causes of anemia that

have nothing to do with iron?

And what came back was B12 deficiency, B9

deficiency, B6 deficiency, hemolytic

anemia, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it goes through the

whole beta thalassemia.

But there were two

things that were missing.

I said, okay,

what are the top 12 causes of anemia that

have nothing to do with iron?

Number 11, cupboard deficiency.

Number 12, retinal deficiency.

And to me, that was very representative

of the thought process of convention.

I'll give you 10 ones that you know

about, but only under duress will I give

you the two most important.

Yeah, no, I'm surprised to get those.

I was expecting another one.

So I was expecting you to carry on to at

least 20 to be honest.

So I was delighted that the AI gods let

the cat out of the bag.

But the important thing is this concept

of stress, of emotional stress, is

central to our health and well being.

And everyone's under stress.

And again, to reinforce a point that I

made earlier, if you have stress in your

world, and we all do, that means you have

oxidative stress in your body.

And if you have this perception that the

stress is unresolved or unresolvable,

then it becomes PTSD.

And then you just put gasoline on furin,

then you just totally change

the hepsidin ferritin dynamic.

And then the tragedy is the people who

have the low ferritin get iron

supplements, get some kind

of enhanced level of iron.

And what does that do?

It only increases the

physiological stress in the body.

Because when iron is too high, it has a

wet blanket effect on copper metabolism.

So then we've totally changed the

physiology of the body, which is only

going to intensify the

perception of stress in the body.

I think it's, to me, it's the hidden

factor for why so many people are out of

balance and have chronic fatigue and just

don't have the vitality that they want.

It's this confusion in the healing

circles about what's really behind low

iron in the blood, and not any

consideration to it stuck in the tissue

and not realizing the copper is the

shuttlecock, if you will,

between the two domains.

Definitely.

So take a chirp call and

let it be called copper.

Absolutely.

Molly, I'd like to maybe introduce, thank

you for that, by the way, I'd like to

introduce a slightly different

perspective if you're open to it.

Now, I'm a big fan of Joel Green.

I don't know if you're

familiar with his work and who he is.

He has a very gut-centric approach to

health, and health in general.

And he also has a fairly, I suppose,

multifaceted approach to how one might

deal with iron overload, which I'd love

to get your take on.

Of course, I'm not trying to

pit anyone against each other.

It's just really to, I'm just interested

in hearing people's perspectives, I

suppose, on different protocols and ways

of approaching something.

Anyway, he first posits that, excuse me,

he first posits that increasing various

gut bacteria, like

bifidobacteria, for example,

with various iron-binding cetaphols,

which I suppose for the audience can

maybe best describe as well.

I suppose literally bacteria-produced

magnets can help trap iron and I suppose

suppressor at the level of the gut and

therefore reduce systemic overload.

Do you think there's any

value to that statement at all?

Is there any way?

Value to that statement.

Would you agree with that?

Absolutely.

Iron metabolism is a two-step process.

We've got to get iron into the enterocyte

and then it comes in a plus two format.

But then it's got to go into a plus three

format to either be loaded into ferritin

or be exported onto transferrin.

And the second step of absorption is

transferrin accepting the iron so it can

go into the bloodstream and get back to

the bone marrow to

become new red blood cells.

And so when that doesn't happen

efficiently and effectively, there will

be a buildup of iron in the

enterocyte, the enterocytes.

And so I think that all of the

gut-related distress that's out there,

whether we're talking about colitis or

Crohn's or just IBS or whatever the

mechanism might be, I think it's all

iron-related due to a lack of copper.

And in fact, in the

world of veterinary medicine,

there's a condition called Jonas disease,

J-O-H-N-S-E-S, Jonas disease.

And it's identical to Crohn's disease.

The conditions are absolutely identical.

Do you know how they cure Jonas disease

in the animal world?

Copper.

Yeah.

But in the human world, the doctors wring

their hands saying we don't have to

understand this Crohn's thing.

And it's just, to me, it's unfortunate

that people don't

understand how iron is absorbed,

two steps, how copper is essential for

the mechanism to maintain that balance.

And so the other side of it, though, in

terms of gut dysbiosis is I've worked

with hundreds of people who have gut

issues, as you can imagine,

what do they all have in common?

There's an emotional

issue they can't stomach.

Yeah.

And that's sort of going to affect that

migrating motor

complex for the most part.

I assume there's a

copper link there as well.

Well, again, we're back to when you're in

a sympathetic state, the two hormones

that are going to really rise are

adrenaline and cortisol.

Yeah, fair enough.

Adrenaline has known

properties to increase hepsidin.

So there must be an adrenaline, there's

an adrenaline-furyin connection, right?

So hepsidin is going up.

We know what that's going to do.

And what does cortisol do?

Cortisol is very important hormone.

It serves many different functions.

But one of its least known functions is

the ability to increase the

production of metallothionine.

So in a state of stress, when cortisol

gets released, there can be a four to

five-fold increase in

metallothionine production.

And why is that a problem?

Because metallothionine binds up copper a

thousand times stronger

than it binds up zinc.

So then we've just changed the energy and

antioxidant dynamics of the body.

And so if someone has chronic stress,

what's essentially what's happening is

the organism, our organism is saying, you

can't seem to handle the stress.

I'm going to power you down.

Yeah.

Hence the, I suppose that sort of

something I go on about every podcast

just about so I'm sure the audience is

about, it was really

kill me at this point.

But that, that sounds

like, very much like Dr.

Robert Navier's Saldane response.

I don't know if you...

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

And the other part that I think is

important for people to realize is

there's a lot of belief, and what's the

three letter word in belief lie.

There's a lot of belief that we need to

manage our zinc-copper ratio.

No, no you don't.

You need to get zinc in your diet.

It's a very important mineral.

But I think we are facing a severe

shortage of copper in the food system

because it's not in the soil because of

modern agricultural practices.

But what people need to understand is

that zinc is a perfect

activator for metallothione.

So when you're gobbling down 45, 50

milligrams of zinc, you've effectively

taken copper offline.

And the part that people may not know is

that zinc has a known ability to block

copper uptake at CTR1,

copper transporter 1.

It has a known ability to kill the

cytochrome C oxidase function.

And it has a known ability by Dr.

Deuce down in Australia in 2010 to kill

the ferrooxidase enzyme function,

especially in the brain.

And so there's a lot of who struck John

about, "Oh, you got to be

careful of your zinc levels."

No.

The person who raised that issue was a

gentleman by the name of

Carl Pfeiffer in the 1960s.

When the heels of world-renowned

scientists like Otto Wirberg, Hans Krebs,

LVM, Conrad LVM, some very noted

scientists studying

copper and iron for 30 years.

They didn't study zinc.

Zinc wasn't even on the radar screen.

And in the same way that I would argue

that Louis Pasteur was guided in his

focus, I think that Carl Pfeiffer was

guided in his focus.

And he wrote the first article in the

1960s about the zinc-copper ratio.

Well, what's important to know is the

history of these scientists.

And it's in Wikipedia.

You can look it up.

But he was a principal in the MK Ultra

Mine program with the

CIA here in the States.

Well, when I learn about a fact like

that, that invalidates their research.

And so I just, I question the veracity of

this zinc-copper ratio that runs a lot of

thinking in functional medical circles.

They get very preoccupied with it.

And I don't think they understand the energetics of copper or

the de-energetics of zinc.

There's nothing about

zinc that creates energy.

It doesn't make you have more vitality.

It's my way of thinking.

Zinc is a structural mineral.

Copper is a catalytic mineral.

And we need both.

But when you've got to make change, when

you've got to make energy, when you've

got to neutralize the exhaust, you better

have bioavailable copper.

Bioavailable copper

at your beck and call.

Do you think the copper IDA is even close

to being sufficient?

Excuse me.

Do you think the copper IDA is even close

to being sufficient?

So in the 1930s, the average person, this

is here in the States, but actually there

were studies done in China and in the UK.

Back in the 30s, the average diet would

deliver four to six

milligrams of copper a day.

And I was stuck on one to two at best.

And then by the 1960s, it had dropped to

two to five milligrams per day.

And now worldwide, they seem to be

hovering around nine-tenths of one

milligram being acceptable.

And then Leslie Clavey in 2011 did a

study of the average American's diet and

how much copper were

they actually getting.

And if I'm remembering it correctly, 80%

of people in the States were not getting

nine-tenths of one

milligram of copper a day.

And he just has a very simple solution,

get more copper in your diet

and in your supplement routine.

And that's a very unpopular, almost

heretical stance because

copper is toxic, don't you know?

Yeah, you're going to end up with

Wilson's disease by tomorrow morning if

you ever do it by half milligram.

Exactly, right.

No, I think there's a lot of hysteria

around copper for all the wrong, well, I

will say for all the wrong reasons.

But the delicacy of copper is the

research is out there, but you really

have to work for it.

And it takes time and discipline, and it

takes a willingness to stand up to

convention to question,

could there be more to the story?

And that's really what we, that's the

position we take within the RCP is, yes,

there is more to the story.

Let's talk about it.

Yeah, do you have a preferred sort of

supplement form of copper?

I mean, I know there is one, I believe

it's by a company called Global Healing,

and they produce a copper,

it's a copper's