E062 - How Did I Not See It? Making Sense Of Betrayal In Your Narcissistic Relationship with The Matadoras
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This episode is going to help you make sense of how your ex could have cheated on you or lived a whole double life and how you didn't see it coming.
Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.
Making sense of, and healing from betrayal can be one of the biggest mindfucks of them all. When we are unpacking and untangling the narcissistic relationship experience. So in today's episode, you are going to better understand how you didn't see the betrayal and the cheating and potentially the devil life happening while you were in it. You are going to learn how to approach the dilemma of telling the next woman that he's with. Who he really is. And you're going to hear [00:01:00] why big hearted women like yourself often find themselves healing from betrayal trauma and what the specific steps are that you can do to help yourself move through the heartbreak.
I'm talking today with Lizzie and Deana. Two women who happened to have been married to the same man who they have named Rex RX. And they classify him as a toxic, cheating, abusive narcissist. So in this episode, they're sharing their journey of how they found one another, how they came together. And how they both walked through that betrayal and the betrayal, trauma recovery. This is such a unique and impactful episode to have two women who shared the same ex. And they have so much wisdom to share. You guys are going to love. Love, love this episode. Especially, if you have been cheated on or betrayed in some way that has left you with all of these questions and no [00:02:00] answers. And be sure to stick around to the end of the episode, where I will pull an Oracle card that will give you a specific message that you can sit with and hold on to this week in your healing.
Speaker 8: All right. Deana and Lizzie. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us. Yeah. Thank you so much for having us, Bre.
Speaker 8: We're excited to be here. So excited. This topic, I am, it's like weird to say I'm excited about talking about betrayal trauma, but you guys have such a unique story and highlighting this type of trauma I think is really important for women who have been cheated on and for two women such as yourselves who have been with the same partner, I think you called him a lie, narcissist.
Is that right?
Speaker 6: We could go on, actually
Speaker 8: sure there's definitely more, more ways to qualify him. ~Um, ~but for you guys both to have been with the same man, and have experienced betrayal trauma from the same person, [00:03:00] is such a unique experience. story. So let's start, let's start there. Like, how did you guys realize that you had been with the same person?
And how'd you meet?
Speaker 9: Well, to be quite honest, her children were my stepchildren. So we kind of knew each other. We've met, but of course, you know, I'm married to her ex and it's kind of strange for, ~you know, ~that type of blending of a relationship. And then one thing started going really weird for me. I got locked out of accounts.
He was disappearing, you know, just at strange times. There was no money. I mean, it was just a plethora of stuff that was going on. And finally, I got to the breaking point. I couldn't take it anymore without answers. It didn't mean that I was saying it was over at this point. I just knew something was wrong.
So I packed my stuff and I left. And it got really bad there for a bit. ~And I felt like it was really important because it was. ~He was starting to bring up the terms like suicide and things like that. [00:04:00] And so I called Deana's oldest son and I told him that, you know, I'd left your dad and, ~uh, ~I felt like it was important that he knew because he's talking, ~you know, ~suicidal thoughts or whatever he was expressing them.
And, and so her son said, you know, thank you, Lizzie, for letting me know. And, ~um, ~I'm not surprised. And if it's okay with you, can I share this with my mom? Because she experienced it this off and on for 26 years and she understands and I was like, sure, why not? I mean, the times that Deana and I would have quick conversations are like, you know, Hey, how's it going?
Nice dress. You know, it wasn't like we like did the side eye with each other. So I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? At that point, I was kind of. Feeling very alone, very scared because I didn't know what was going on. I was living in a different state, so I didn't really have family. I was flat broke. And then when I tried to get an [00:05:00] apartment, I couldn't get an apartment because my credit had tanked and then come to find out he was not paying my credit cards.
And, and so, I mean, the list went on and within minutes ~of, ~of her son hanging up the phone with me, Deana ~called. And, uh, or not called, she ~texted me and she said, Hey, she said, I understand what you're going through. It's not you. It's, ~it's, this is, ~this is, I've suffered it for 26 years. And she said, is it okay if, you know, we call sometime?
And I'm like, Oh, absolutely. Because at that point, you need somebody. Who can relate, not necessarily from the same person, but you know, when we're in those dark places, you need someone to relate. And even before Deana and I connected, I found out there was another woman. So he'd been living a double life for 10, 10, about 10 months or so before I even knew it.
And, you know, he's funneling money in different accounts, just so many other things going on. So when Deana called me one day, it was. She just was like shared [00:06:00] her story and it was like, oh my goodness. How did I get in this? This is awful. And you feel very vulnerable because first of all, I had no credit anymore.
I was working hard as a school teacher and no family near me and to have someone that was able to connect with me, you know, ~it ~at that point a relationship started because we knew of each other for six years because I was married to him for six years and then it was like non stop. I think at that point it was kind of like two women who found a connection and a passion.
We also had a passion for other women who could be in these situations and it just kind of meshed from there but I know there's a lot more to tell and I'll let Deana kind of share some of that as well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so, ~you know, ~it's a funny day when, ~um, your, ~your ex's second wife reaches out to you and, ~you know, ~says that to you because the whole time that she was with him, I had a sense of guilt [00:07:00] because I knew what he was all about and I knew that he had lied to her before they even got married. He told her that we were already divorced and, ~I mean, ~we'd only been separated a few months.
~You know, when ~he pursued her and ~he ~made her think that I lived out of state when I lived in the exact same state ~as everybody else, ~as both of them, and just went on and on with lie after lie. ~Um, and ~even our kids, ~you know, ~who were mostly grown by that point, they knew what he had done throughout the relationship.
They knew why, because I had to tell them the truth as to, ~you know, ~why we were divorcing, um, because I knew he would turn around and pitch it back on me to try to get the kid's loyalty. And at that point, I'm like, You know, I don't want to tell them the whole story about their dad, but I already know he's going to go ahead and try to isolate the children and that's not, I'm not doing that.
So, you know, having that sense, ~um, you know, ~of should you tell this person that's about to enter this relationship? And even my oldest daughter said, mom, you have to tell her [00:08:00] because dad uninvited us from his wedding in order that we would not say anything to her. And then acted like we just didn't want to come.
And I told her, I said, listen, sweetheart, I'm pretty sure that, you know, this new person in his life is just going to think I'm the crazy ex and not listen to me. And I think that'll be more isolating. You know, this woman's going to be your step mom. And you know, I don't want her to come up right off the top thinking I'm crazy.
So I made the choice not to, but I always wondered if that was the right choice. So when she reached out that day, it was such relief because I got to tell her everything. ~And. ~I mean, I told her everything, everything, and there was a lot of that to tell. So it was, it was a good day. You know, Lizzie is a wonderful person, and she didn't even question what I had to say.
~Um, ~we bonded over it completely, and we were able to really, ~like, kind of, you know, ~grieve together because I think it opened her eyes in a lot of ways of [00:09:00] things she kept feeling and seeing, ~but you know, you kind of feel them and see them, ~but some things sometimes are not big enough or obvious enough where you can point your finger to it.
So, it was a good thing.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up that, the questioning on if you should reach out or if that was the right decision. Because ~I ~I have so many clients who are now watching their ex go through the love bomb phase with the new woman and they're like, should I warn her? ~Should I, ~should I get into their business?
Or am I going to come off as the crazy ex? Is that going to push her closer to him? And it's such a hard Question to answer. Do you have any advice for women who are in that position, who are listening? I see Lizzie lighting up. Go ahead, Lizzie. Well,
Speaker 9: the only reason why I'm lighting up is because in this journey, when I, right after I got divorced, like literally five days after the divorce was final, I was able to go in the house and get the items that [00:10:00] I wanted that I had put in my divorce decree.
I found these cards on the ground and I thought they were mine because it looked like my writing. So I thought it was something I gave him. So I picked them up. I opened them up and it was from another woman. And there were dates on the cards, which was just like, Eye opening, because it, like, it, for me, it was also, okay, now I get the whole picture.
It's not just, you know, you're, you're trolling for a woman out there. It's like, there's, there's a relationship here. While you were married, sleeping next to me, you were carrying on with this whole other person. And I could tell, both Deana and I could tell, that this person had some really beautiful values.
I don't think she would have, ~like, ~dated this person like this, ~you know, ~sometimes you can tell a person's moral character. And I think I went through a state of shock right afterwards. But in the process, I think within that, Deana and I were like, we need to tell her. But how do you tell someone you don't [00:11:00] know?
How do you tell somebody that ~you, you know, ~you don't know how they're going to receive what you have to say? But at that point too, I think it depends on the circumstances. It depends on your heart attitude. I think for us, it was like, we're going to tell her and leave it up to her. But here's the thing, it took us, I think it was like four months, Deana, by the time we were able to find her and like connect with her because we knew we had one shot.
One shot. So it was like, we had some data and some things that I had found through, ~um, ~RX's stuff. And so I had that to lean on. So we use that to keep looking and searching. And then we found her, actually, I think one of her children found her Facebook page and then Deana and I were like, okay, now what do we do?
And then what happened was Deana sent a message to this person. And so Deana, I'll let you kind of explain that. Cause you did a really good [00:12:00] job.
Speaker 6: You know, we kind of, we could see on the Facebook page that she was a really good woman. Now, we didn't see RX, we call him RX R X, we didn't see RX on there.
~Um, ~so we didn't even know if maybe, you know, I mean, by this point it'd been a year since the dates on the cards and that obviously she'd been with him. So we weren't sure if she was still with him, if it was just a fling, but. ~Um, ~we tried in vain to get ahold of her or anybody that might respond that knew her and nothing was happening.
So I just simply left a Facebook messenger message, but we weren't friends. So I wasn't sure where it would go. And that took another month or six weeks. And then all of a sudden I get a phone call. And she calls up and she says, Is this Deana? And of course I said, yes. And, and of course I could see on caller ID who it was.
So I'm getting nervous. She said, listen, I found this Facebook message. It's in a really weird [00:13:00] spot. ~I don't, ~I can't even believe I found it. She said, and I'm so confused, I need you to explain to me what you're talking about. And I said, listen, Lizzie and I just wanted you to know that we could tell that you're a really good person and that you would never be with a married man.
And I said, are you still with RX? And she said, yes. I said, and you know who I am. And she said, yes. And I said, well, the whole point of the message was to make sure that if you were in this relationship or even if you decided not to be, eventually you would find out and we didn't want you to feel bad and we wanted to also be here for support because we know this person and we know what he's capable of and we know that you're going to need, ~you know, ~a soft place to land when you find out.
And she started getting hysterical and she said, who is Lizzie? And I [00:14:00] said, what do you mean? She said, I know who you are. You guys were married seven years ago. Who's Lizzie? And I said, well, Lizzie is his second wife. And she's like, what? What are you talking about? And I said, well, you were with him while they were married and she started panicking.
So now she's wanting to know where Lizzie lived, you know, who she is, ~et cetera, ~et cetera. She was absolutely in shock and then she starts freaking out because her son, who's an adult, a young adult, he's on a motorcycle trip with RX right now and they're out of town and now she doesn't even know who this person is because she had just married him.
Speaker 7: Oh wow.
Speaker 6: Yes. So she's in panic mode. ends up calling Lizzie as well. That way they can correlate all the things that the missing pieces, you know, he was supposedly an Uber driver, you know, and he was supposedly telling Lizzie that, you know, he was out driving [00:15:00] and earning extra money. He was at church events, he was doing this.
And then he was telling the third wife that ~he was, Um, what did he say? Oh, he was, ~he was at the gym all the time and he was working out, which she responded, I should have known that he just never got skinny. He was always fat for him to be working out. She had an amazing little accent. And. So they correlated, they even have pictures where Lizzie and he would be on a trip and he would cut Lizzie out of the picture and send the picture to the third wife and, you know, of course they weren't married at the point that he was with Lizzie, but he would send a picture to her telling her how much he missed her and he's on a solo bike trip and wishes she was there.
So they just coorDeanated all of these things and put together this incredible story of a complete double life. And he was so good at it that this third woman, we'll call her Jane, that he became part of Jane's family. He became a father to her children. He knew her parents. He was at their games. I mean, he had an [00:16:00] incredible amount of time to curate this Third person, complete, you know, alter ego person and convinced her that he was a wonderful man and a godly man and went to church all the time ~and et cetera, et cetera.~
~So it was crazy. ~So that's where we, you know, at this point, you know, Lizzie and I kind of have that same stance because ~he, ~he did run off to marry wife number four right after that because Wife number three, Jane, as soon as she found out what he was doing, before he even got back from that three day trip with her son, she had the police escorting him into the driveway.
His car was packed. She had a restraining order. She had a court date for an annulment. I mean, she slapped it to him. And he immediately ran to where his sisters lived in another state and married another woman as soon as they were divorced. So, um, Our opinion is we would [00:17:00] want someone to know, and I know that's a nuanced statement, but we did go to wife number four.
Actually, Jane went to wife number four on Facebook. And just, you know, begged her to reconsider and to think about what she was doing and told her everything that was going on. ~And, ~and wife number four told her to jump off a bridge basically, that she was crazy. Didn't believe it. But two years later, wife number four, we'll call her Sally, wife number four reaches out and apologizes to us and said, I can't believe it.
She said, he's talking to 27 different women. I found that on his phone. What?
Speaker 8: How do you have the time? Like, I cannot even comprehend dating multiple people at one time. No less, like, creating entire lives with multiple women at one time. That is, like, beyond my comprehension.
Speaker 9: And he would [00:18:00] not call us by our name.
Like, the whole time we were married, I was rarely called by my name. It was Sweetie. I was always Sweetie. And to this day, I think if I ever dated anyone that called me Sweetie, I'd be like, you know, and I thought it was really special those rare times that he did call my name. Well, now it makes sense because he couldn't remember names.
He was afraid of saying the wrong name because then he would get caught. And yeah, I mean, the betrayal was really deep. So, you know, I think of, you know, If you feel like you're someone that wants to tell somebody, you have to realize that there could be repercussions. ~There could be, you know, that, oh, yeah, I don't believe you.~
But no matter what, you put enough of a whisper in their ear that maybe they will be aware and they'll start seeing signs that maybe they'll go, wow. And then either not make the mistake of being married or after a time of being married, they'll go. get themselves out of there as quickly as possible if it's really bad.
And, you know, ~it's, ~it's, I also like to talk to the people, if you are dating and [00:19:00] someone reaches out to you and says, Hey, I just want to let you know, don't be quick to turn them off. Because also it has to be the person that shares the information, but the person that receives it needs to have something of a, of an open heart and mind.
Because a lot of times women that have been healing from one toxic relationship, you know, we know the statistics, most likely they'll go into another one. So maybe if you are in that type of relationship, someone says something to you about this person, there might be some validity to it. Doesn't mean you have to, you know, cut it off, but proceed with caution.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I love that way of reframing it where it's kind of like, so what if they think you're crazy, right? You're at least planting a seed that maybe will help them see a red flag sooner, or maybe will help validate a red flag they have already seen that they're not really letting you know that they've seen yet.
Or maybe they do think you're totally crazy and it's not landing right now, but it will [00:20:00] land at some point in the future. And so to be less scared of, What they'll think about you and come from a place to your point, Deana, with like, you look like a woman who would not want to be with a married man. Like I can tell your values, you know, throw in some compliments, throw in some, like ~some, ~some of your personality and some of your values into that message so that they, it can be better received.
I think that's really important.
Speaker 9: I 100 percent agree. It is a lot in how we deliver it. A lot of times when we have a lot of that pent up emotion, when we talk to somebody else about that person, that emotion comes out, not necessarily the words you're saying. ~So yeah, a hundred percent. ~
Speaker 8: And ~the, ~the layers of betrayal that you spoke to Lizzie of like how deep this goes, ~how, ~how hard it is to find out that your person that you thought was your person that you were sleeping next to has actually been leading some amount of double life.
How, how was that healing [00:21:00] process for you? Like, where did you even start in trying to, to unpack that?
Speaker 9: That's a, that's a good question. That had such deep pain The journey of my healing took a very long time, and it was in spurts, like, you know, we know in healing, we're doing well, we've, you know, started working through something and then something triggers it.
I liked how my, I think my therapist put it, because I think part of my betrayal was there was some good stuff there. There was some great memories. You have a hard time separating that betrayal. And like, is everything awful? Was the whole marriage awful? And ~that, I think ~that was really my first step of the healing process of getting to that point where I can still embrace the good and not say all of it was his double life.
And because that really, I think, [00:22:00] take a longer time to heal. And it happened also, some of my healing process happened during COVID. And I was meeting my therapist virtually and I loved one of the things that she said because I was more isolated. I think it was harder to go through the healing process as a single woman, older woman, my kids were all adults, gone.
Everybody's like, Oh, this is your time. This is your time. Well, what does that look like? Right now I'm just a hot mess. I don't know what I want. I just found out the person I was married to for six years. I thought it wasn't perfect, but I was content overall because my kids were gone. ~So it was, it was simple.~
It was like, where do I even ~start? Like you said, where do you ~start? And sometimes I think it's just taking that one step in front of the other. I think it's also being okay with the quiet. Sometimes it's really hard ~to, ~to sit in the quiet and meditate and really kind of face some of those emotions and then making yourself move forward ~and, ~and figuring out what moving [00:23:00] forward looks like is not clear.
I know that sounds crazy. ~It's, ~it's not. It's like, I knew I had to work. So I'd get up and go to work. ~Um, ~my family was getting together for a special event. Okay. I'd go to that. But you know, it's like, what does your reinvention look like? Okay. You can't even think of that until you go through the healing process.
And I think it's just, you just keep journeying through. I think finding that good support, I had great support system. I knew at the end of the day, people loved me. So I think it's really important to start there, like making sure that you have, you're surrounded by people that love you, even though they're not, you're not going to hang out with them all the time.
It's that peace knowing that someone's there at the end of the day, emotionally. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 8: And that the holding, the duality of those emotions is something so important that you touched on where it's like, we can, we can not have to like write off the whole relationship as terrible, because I think sometimes [00:24:00] when our brain takes us back into the nostalgia place, We like start to judge ourselves and we're like, why am I missing him?
While I'm also understanding what he did to me and my experience through my healing, I was having a really hard time holding that duality. And part of the post separation abuse that I experienced was my ex actually sending me all of the pictures of him with other women. with dates and with haircuts that I knew happened at the time that we were together.
And so he was intentionally causing harm, you know, just causing distress by doing that. And I would receive one of those pictures and I would immediately feel like the anger and the, you know, you son of a, and all the things that come with that, along with how could he, and how could I have not seen it and to go down that whole rabbit hole.
And then also, Like, what was he with her when he wasn't with me during this good time that we were in, or when he said he had to go do XYZ ~for, ~for work, he was actually [00:25:00] with her. Like, it's, it was so hard ~to, ~to reconcile, in my mind. ~It was. ~It is. Yeah, it's, and it's trying to make sense of, The nonsensical, right, it's us coming from this place of I would never lead a double life.
I would never cheat on a person that I said I loved. It's hard for us to understand how somebody is capable of those things.
Speaker 9: And I think it's okay to step back. ~I think it's so hard. ~I think we're human nature is to understand the whys. And I think when you have that type of situation, I think you have to have peace to step back and go, I'm okay with not understanding the whys.
Because I wouldn't do it, like you said. It's just so out of my realm of thinking. And I think by getting to that point, I did that a lot. ~Like, ~I'm not going to understand the whys with this. ~It's, ~I won't, and I'll make myself crazy trying to figure out the whys. I just need to figure out [00:26:00] how to move forward and how to heal and not think about the whys.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I know betrayal can look a lot of different ways, but with sexual betrayal, specifically, that layer of when you're opening yourself and your body to somebody that says they love you, and they're taking advantage of you, and then you find out later that they weren't actually who they said they were, they weren't doing what they said they were doing.
That's really hard ~to, to, ~to be with within our bodies as well. And I'm curious, Deana, for you, did, how did you feel? Because I think you mentioned he was a sex addict, or have classified sex addiction as part of this experience. When you found out that he was a sex addict and he was acting on his addiction, what was that like for you?
Speaker 6: Oh my goodness. You know, I married him at 17 years old and he was 19, so we were just kids. [00:27:00] I was a very innocent little kid too, ~like I, you know, ~a little church girl. I didn't know anything about anything and it wasn't maybe nine, ten months into our relationship that he seemed to be always gone and I couldn't figure out where he was and Finally, one night I confronted him and said, why are you always out, ~you know, ~in the evening times like this?
What are you doing? And he just screamed at me and said, I was out buying you flowers and, you know, just tried to make me feel horrible, which it did. I felt terrible. And then I started realizing this is a little town. There are no florists open at eight o'clock at night when he claimed he was there. And I double checked and sure enough, a couple little floors we had were not open.
And so I confronted him about that. And once I started confronting him, he finally started confessing because I said, listen, whatever's going on, there's been too much weird stuff and I don't understand it. If you don't tell [00:28:00] me I'm leaving, I'm going to pack it up and go. This is your one chance to come clean.
And what came out of his mouth devastated me and confused me beyond belief. He told me, because he was, he was a sex addict that wasn't running around with, you know, having affairs or emotional affairs ~or, ~he was out looking for experiences. So he had been out with women, actually he was roaming the streets of our small town trying to find a woman that looked like she would be that type is all I can say, because that's what he said, I'm quoting him, and he would charm her until she gave him sexual favors.
And he would do this on a routine basis. And with that confession, it came out that even at age 15, he had been arrested for pretending to pee on the side of the road and actually trying to show himself and other things that had happened. He would go on field trips in high school [00:29:00] because he was into basketball and he would get a prostitute on the field trip if the hotel room wasn't occupied.
Things that went way back before me. But, as you know, both of you, you still feel like, what is wrong with me? If this person is out trying to get all these sexual experiences or trying to fulfill something that you know, you're supposed to get from the one you love, you can't help that it affects you as a person and your value.
And so the betrayal was absolutely incredible. ~And it went on, you know, ~I left him on an average of every three years. And nine times, as a matter of fact, and there was counseling and there's therapy and there's everything you can imagine. But I think when I left the relationship, when I really realized the damage was when I started with my new husband.
That's when I realized how deep and how bad the betrayal was because I was with an amazing man. Who didn't do that kind of stuff. [00:30:00] And yet I am literally expecting him to do something. Anything he did, if he, I even thought he was glancing at a woman. I was literally having a complete emotional and spiritual meltdown, you know, inside myself.
And I think that's when that really came to surface for me. And I had to do some serious dealing with my emotions versus logic.
Speaker 8: That PTSD is real. ~After the, ~after the end of my relationship, I was actually diagnosed with PTSD and ~it was, it had, ~it was happening for four years. So ~it was, ~they, ~you know, ~qualified it as complex.
And I was just like, Whoa, like I have a diagnosis from this experience like that is insane. And it does when you're in a new relationship, there's so much healing that can happen, especially when you're with a healthy person the next time where you can be really open about what you're feeling and what's coming up and that it's not about them.
It's about this past experience and they can help like create that new neural pathway, that safety in your brain. [00:31:00] But ~it's, it's, ~
Speaker 6: it's a process. And you know, ~they have to be, ~your new person has to be very patient because at first I wasn't sure. I honestly wasn't sure ~if he, ~if he was the same guy that I had just left or if it was me.
And that's, I think the hardest part is that you are saying like, am I crazy now? Like, am I, am I just going to think that every single man on the face of the planet is a sex addict, you know? And so separating those emotions, you know, from logic. And that's what, it is. I finally went to a therapist and that's what he said.
You need to look at logic. What is he really doing in front of your face? What are you really seeing? Are you really seeing red flags? Or are you seeing him look at a woman and say she had a nice dress and then you literally freak out, you know? So ~it, it was, it was a, ~it was a process of, I would say a few years.
~Um, you know, ~with my current husband to finally relax and finally heal and finally realize that not every man is this person. But it was very difficult because I honestly thought at any [00:32:00] point he might leave. Because ~I, ~I could act a little crazy and ~you know, ~I never went and really yelled at him or anything like that or accused him to his face, but we had a lot of conversations that as a new couple, you should really just be enjoying being a new couple, right?
Not having these serious deep conversations and so he stuck in there, which is great.
Speaker 8: ~Good. ~I'm so glad he was, he was mature enough emotionally and otherwise to be able to hold that for you. Yeah. Lizzie, what did it, what did that process look like for you?
Speaker 9: Well, I think at that point I was like, ~uh, ~sexual addiction was new.
Like I never even thought of it. Never. I knew people dealt with sexual addictions, but it just put it in a different spotlight in my own personal life. And of course it adds to that betrayal. But I think I was so wrapped up and in my healing journey with RX [00:33:00] on the double life than I was the sexual addiction.
I think ~that is, ~that is my probably Achilles heel, my PTSD in that relationship, because I'm like, how could I live with someone for six years and not see this? And I just, I think that is my deepest pain right there.
Speaker 8: What would you, what would you guys say for the listener who is thinking that same thing?
Like, ~how, ~how did I not see this? And it's starting to really put all of that self blame on themselves for what happened and not getting out sooner or at the first, you know, little tinge of red flag that they felt.
Speaker 9: I think right now, I would say, just ~if, ~if a person is listening to this, the beautiful thing is they're learning, I think giving yourself the space to learn what those red flags look like, and also giving yourself the [00:34:00] grace if you're with someone and you find out these things happen, because ~as, ~as Deana and I have experienced, and I'm sure you too, and that is very intelligent people end up in these relationships, relationships.
And in so many of us will have the same thing. How did I get here? ~Well, there's no quick fix. There's no answer. ~I think the best thing to do is to continually get yourself, you know, educated, meet new people. As far as like listening to people that are in your life that may say, Hey, I have a concern here and being really cautious in the relationship.
~I, ~I know ~we, ~we don't want to go with a relationship where we're going to close our heart off, but we can't go with our heart wide open. It's a process. It's a loaded question. That's so many beautiful people. are struggling with.
Speaker 8: Deana, do you have anything to add to that?
Speaker 6: ~Um, ~I would just say that, you know, the average woman leaves their abuser seven times.
So everybody out there [00:35:00] listening, this is normal. This is normal because I knew what he was doing once I started figuring out what was going on and that it was actually a pattern. So I knew for a lot of the years of the relationship that he was a sex addict and I still didn't leave. I would leave. I would pick up, pack up the kids and leave.
But I didn't know what I was dealing with, and the only voices I had telling me what I was dealing with, for the most part, were his. Because other people were just as confused as I was. So, you know, you have experts telling you that he's got this or that, and he'll be okay. He can get over it as long as he does this program, and he did.
He'd go to programs, he would go to counselors, ~he would, ~he even checked himself in to a sexual addiction recovery for six months. And so you see them trying, you have a family, you have children, you love them, you're trying to help them. ~It's what we do. ~It's what we do when we love somebody, and good people will hang in [00:36:00] there to see If they can make a difference in that person, they don't want to break up their family.
They don't want their children to come from a broken home. There's so many reasons, so many reasons. And so please, like Lizzie said, do not beat yourself up. Do not act like you're crazy or, you know, this is abnormal or that you're doing something wrong. And definitely do not let this affect who you are as a person and your value, because You're a good person, which is why you don't understand the behavior, which is why you don't know, really have a clue of how to deal with it because you're not that person.
Be proud of who you are.
Speaker 8: Yes. I love, love that point. I want to drive that home so deep for listeners that to me, when we're asking ourselves that question, the first understanding that I have of that person is that they are big hearted, they are empathetic, and they want the best [00:37:00] for the people that they love.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 8: And where that can get Messy is if we don't also have the boundaries around ourselves and our needs, when we don't also have the knowledge around the signs to look out for, when we aren't also listening to our intuition, right? It's like, but those are things that we can learn and that we can get more skilled at doing.
But the fact that you are a good person and have a big heart, you can't learn that. So, you listening, If you're asking yourself that question, ~that, ~that means that that's who you are. That means that you care enough to do this introspection to try to figure it out, which is like eons beyond probably what your ex would have done.
Speaker 9: ~Yeah, ~yeah, exactly. And red flags are red flags. ~There, it's, ~there's no clear, why do I sense this? ~What, you know, it's, ~it's not always evident. So, ~yeah, ~
Speaker 8: ask questions ~to you, ~to your point, you know, like, [00:38:00] start challenging, start saying like, this doesn't make sense. This isn't adding up. And when they give an answer, does that make sense?
Does that add up, you know, um, I had that experience too in the relationship where he was, he was disappearing at night and just wouldn't come home sometimes. And I was like, enough, you can't just not show up anymore. You just can't do this because I would wake up thinking he was going to be home at midnight.
I would wake up at two o'clock in a full panic calling hospitals. Like that's the level of distress that I was in around. Is he okay? What's going on? I don't know. ~Um, ~and it wasn't until I had, I hit that point and got the, I don't even know if it was confidence at that point, but I was fed up enough to be like, this is bullshit.
I can't take this anxiety anymore. It was too much. And then some truth came out and then there was also like padding around that and ways that he got me to sort of feel bad for him. Right. But it was like paying attention to those, what they're saying as the truth, instead of [00:39:00] getting wrapped into their sorries around why they did what they did ~or, or whatever.~
Speaker 6: Yeah, because they'll paint themselves as the victim, you know, um, you know, my ex said that, you know, came to me one day sobbing and said that he's doing this because he was molested ~in a, ~in a horrible way as a young man, ~you know, ~actually a little boy. And he told this whole story. And later when we were separating, he's like, I just made that up.
That didn't happen. And I, I don't know why, why, and he said, because I just needed a reason. ~I didn't have a reason. I don't know why I do this stuff. ~I just needed a reason to tell you and it's like everything he would use, it would, it would become the new manipulative tactic. You know, he learned that being honest and coming out with it and being forthright, not while he was doing it or before he wanted to do it, but after he got caught, if he confessed and admitted it and sobbed and cried and cried and cried, then that's what pulled me back.
Because I thought, okay, [00:40:00] it's out there. We can deal with it. We know what's going on. You know? So it was like, the first manipulative tactic was I'm gonna lie, lie, lie, and you know, gaslight you. And then when that didn't work and I left for a long time, then he switched tactics. And then he went to another tactic of going to a counselor and counselor, you know, was teaching him how to treat me as his wife.
and ~to, you know, ~to understand my feelings and to nurture my, you know, my soul, basically. And he started treating me amazing in every other way. Again, he just learned to manipulate, which is why it was so easy for him to be such a wonderful, charming person. ~You know, ~amazing guy to Lizzie and to the next woman and to the next woman.
He learned from almost a year, you know, with this very specialized therapist, how to treat and nurture a woman's heart and soul so that you're not so harsh. It just, it added to the [00:41:00] game. So it's just crazy on crazy.
Speaker 8: And let's not forget that these types of men are very skilled manipulators. Like to your point, they study how to manipulate women.
They study women's psychology. ~They study, like ~they study us. And so also giving yourself some grace that you are working with a chess master here and you have just learned how to play the game. So a lot of grace, a lot of compassion.
Speaker 9: Well, and they immerse themselves into your life to the point they emulate it.
~So it's hard to tell. ~
Speaker 8: ~It absolutely is. Yeah. ~Oh, thank you ladies for being willing to share the very unique story that you have. ~It's, ~it's so cool to be around other people that have been through similar experiences, but I can't imagine how healing it was to be Having had the same exact person that you got to connect on and share, like, Oh, he did this with me.
He did this with me too. Like there's ~so many, ~so many moments I could imagine that were [00:42:00] just like eyeopening for the two of you.
Speaker 6: You know, I will tell you, and I know you probably know this too, ~or I hope you do, ~but I think the most validating time is when the person goes on to another woman. And that woman's like, I don't think so.
Because, you know, I swear, I think all of us women, honestly, way down deep in your heart somewhere, you kind of wonder, You don't wonder if they had this problem, you know they had this problem, but maybe if you invested a lot of time in them, you wonder if they could have gotten better or was it you that were bringing this out, you know, and someone else maybe could have handled it or steered them another direction and you just wonder deep down inside and then when you see That they're the exact same person.
It is incredibly freeing and validating that you weren't, you know, doing something wrong. And it's a big healing moment right there. I
Speaker 8: cannot wait for the day that some woman is listening to this podcast [00:43:00] and puts together, I don't know how, but it puts together who my ex was and reaches out and is like, Well, I went through it too.
I think that would be such a cool, again, cool is not the greatest word to use there, but that would be such a, a, uh,
Speaker 6: I like cool. Just use cool. I really think it'd be cool. I really do. It bonds you in a way that you just can't bond with anybody else, but it is just, again, the validation is incredible, but you know, if you don't ever get that moment, you have to just, Validate yourself and, and keep remembering the facts because the further you get away from this person, you know, it's easy to think, Oh, we had these moments and you look at pictures and you, you know, and you have to be very aware and remember what you really went through and try not to sugarcoat it.
Speaker 8: And for the woman listening to know also that the goal is to be with somebody who, You aren't always waiting for, to become the person that you want to be with. [00:44:00] The goal is to find a person that you love and respect ~and, ~and are aligned with now, not who they are going to become when they do X, Y, or Z. So counting, um, what's the saying?
Like counting your blessings for getting out of a situation where you were perpetually hanging on and ~being, ~freeing yourself to then find somebody that is ~It's ~already also a good person. It's already like also there.
Speaker 6: Yes. ~That's, ~that's so well said, Bre. That is so well said. That's exactly right. You want that person to just be the person.
Just like you, who's not hiding anything. They are what they are. You're not perfect. You're human. But you don't destroy each other. ~Right. ~There can be real true love there. And it can have a foundation to grow and stay and remain. And then you bring a family into it. And it's a healthy, stable environment.
Speaker 8: We're all constantly making little repairs on ourself. We don't want to be with somebody who's in full destruction mode and is trying to [00:45:00] rebuild themselves. That's a much different experience, especially if they're not trying to rebuild and if it's you that's wanting them to rebuild.
Speaker 9: Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 8: Well, to end these episodes, I always pull an oracle card for the listeners.
Are you guys familiar with oracle cards?
Speaker 6: No,
Speaker 8: no. Okay. Awesome. So there's a deck here that I'll shuffle. I'll have you guys close your eyes and together the three of us are just going to think about that woman listening, all of the women listening. What they need to know, what they need to hear, and there it is. These cards just come flying out.
That's how I pick them. So you can open your eyes. We got 4 a. m. And it looks like a picture of like a forest with a red door or a cave somewhere in the distance. So I'll find it in the book here and then I will read you the message.
Okay. [00:46:00] 4am, a place of fear, uncertainty, shivers, and loneliness. The darkest time before dawn. 4am is a place where predators lurk, protected in black night air. A place for waiting for dawn to come. For light to peek over the horizon and a new day to begin. Although this dark hour feels endless at times, 4am brings a message of hope.
Be still. Stay warm. Solitude is not always loneliness. Blessings abound in the quiet dark of the morning witching hour. Find your center and honor your instinct. Ignore the howls outside. They are not meant for you. Allow your dreams to rise up from this place of deep creativity and longing. Savor the moment.
The sun is rising soon.
Speaker 6: Well, that couldn't be any more perfect. Yeah.
Speaker 8: Well, ladies, where can listeners find you if they want to connect or learn more about your podcast or the work that you're doing?
Speaker 9: Go ahead, Lizzie. Oh, okay.
You can find us under The Matadoras on all [00:47:00] the platforms for our podcast. And then we also have our Facebook group. We're on TikTok and Instagram. Just look for The Matadoras and you'll find us or you can go to thematadoras. com or reach out to us through there or. The matador@gmail.com. Lots of, yeah, and we're on YouTube.
So basically just
Speaker 6: go anywhere, , look for the Matador's. Um, you know, a lot of people put the Matadors, so you'll pull up a very old music group, but you know, so the Matador's, and once you do that, you'll find us everywhere.
Speaker 8: Beautiful. Make sure everything is linked in the show notes. Thank you. ~Thank you.~
Thank you again for sharing your message and inspiring some hope with the listeners.
Speaker 6: Thank you. Thank you for having us, Brie. Mm-hmm . It was a pleasure.
Lizzie and Deana's story is both unique and unfortunately, so common. Where we find ourselves in relationships with men who are leading whole other lives with families and [00:48:00] marriages and girlfriends at the very least. And I know that that can be really hard to sit with and make sense of and recover from. So there are a few things that we talked about in this episode that I really want you to take away.
Really want you to hold in your heart, to remember as you were moving through your experience. So let's recap what those things are.
We talked about the importance of giving yourself grace, as you uncover the truth. And why it's so important that when that question comes into your head of how did I not see this? How did I not see it coming? Why didn't I leave sooner? How, when all of those questions come into your head. To remind yourself that you were doing the best you can with the information that you had and that you were capable of seeing at the time. And that these men are expert con artists. They have practiced their whole lives, manipulating people and lying and conniving behind the scenes. And [00:49:00] you got steeped into a very boiling pot of water that you didn't probably know that you were in for.
And most importantly, you are an empathetic, caring, warmhearted woman who wanted to really help the person that you loved and wanted to be there for them and wanted to try everything before you decided to leave or. Divorced or moved the kids out of the house. You were approaching this from a very cautious place, most likely, and really hoping that he would change. You also in this episode, got some great advice on if you're questioning, if you should. Reach out to the next woman that he's with.
Maybe you're seeing him have a new girlfriend. Maybe you're seeing him starting his new life with this woman. It's such a pickle to be in of doing, do I tell her, do I not? Do I get mixed into their life? Do I not? There was some really great advice on how Deana and Lizzie approached that in this episode. [00:50:00] And how, what to be mindful of. If you do want to go down that route. You also learned how to start to move forward and. Really hold the duality of both the good memories and the bad memories. And to expect that there's going to be a duality there. And, and hold space for all of the emotions around all of that.
As you are continuing to just put one foot in front of the other. Surrounding yourself with beautiful people and meeting yourself in the grief, because the only way out is through. And the only way through is by being supported, led, held by people who can hold space for that and have been there to hold space for it and have been there in that experience.
And I want to just name again. How painful this is. I know firsthand trying to make sense of betrayal. And how somebody could do this. Is so hard to reconcile and so [00:51:00] hard to come to acceptance around and know that you will, you will get there in time. You don't have to get there tomorrow. You don't have to get there next week.
Grief takes time. Processing takes time. But trying to surround yourself with the people that can help support that journey is going to make that a more easeful process for you. So I see you. I hear you. I was you and you're going to be okay. I promise. If you enjoyed this episode, I'm going to point you back to episode 47.
It is called, was any of it real science you've been deceived in a narcissistic relationship. That's another interview that I do with a beautiful woman named Hillary buck, Walter wild. It's one of our fan favorite episodes here on the heartbreak to wholeness podcast. And she talks about the pain of being deceived, which of course is part of betrayal, trauma. So I think that will really resonate with you as you continue to just pad yourself with resources and experiences of other women, as you are sitting with [00:52:00] all of this information. As always this podcast is for you.
You're not alone. And I will see you in the next episode.