[00:00:00] Eric Goranson: Welcome to around the house with Eric G and Caroline. Be your one-stop shop for home improvement every single week. Thanks for joining us. Hey, Caroline, how are you today?

[00:00:12] Caroline Blazovsky: Hello everybody.

[00:00:15] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: It's

[00:00:15] Eric Goranson: at seasoner. It is it's that season and we've got a really good friend in the house today. Our friend, Nicki Krueger, Santa Fe dehumidifiers.

[00:00:26] Eric Goranson: Welcome back to around the

[00:00:27] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: house. Thank you very much. It is the season that nasally allergy high moisture.

[00:00:38] Eric Goranson: Yeah, we changed that that song it's getting hot in here too. It's getting humid into here and make that the intro every time he come on.

[00:00:50] Eric Goranson: So it is that time of year where everybody figures out what humidity really means and maybe not understand what it's doing to their house.

[00:00:59] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Exactly. And it's [00:01:00] a tricky time of the year. Because we're not running a lot of air conditioning right now and that spring season. We've got, high Dew points outside, which lead to high humidity levels inside.

[00:01:12] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: We have people closing up their homes. Because of allergies yet bringing in outdoor air in order to make sure they are diluting all the contaminants that are inside. So it's a really tricky time of the year to control your indoor environment.

[00:01:28] Eric Goranson: And that's why, of course, that dehumidifier plays such a big role because.

[00:01:32] Eric Goranson: You know, as we know, the air conditioning does a decent job of doing it when it's running. But right now, many places, it's not, unless you're down in the south someplace. And you know, I know in the Northeast, you guys had a little bit of heat here recently, but that was just a day or two. And then all of a sudden that humid air comes right back in again.

[00:01:50] Eric Goranson: And the humidity. High humidity can gets right back and going to get inside

[00:01:53] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: them.

[00:01:54] Caroline Blazovsky: I think Nikki too, in the Northeast, by New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Virginia, where you [00:02:00] are we have this beautiful weather and we want to open our windows and it says warm day. And then we forget that block or that concrete that's in our basement is called.

[00:02:08] Caroline Blazovsky: So what's going to happen when you've got this cold block and the sudden influx of this warm air coming in. All of a sudden, if you look at your humidistat or your temperature, you'll see all of a sudden you've got high relative humidity just from that condensation

[00:02:21] that's

[00:02:21] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: happening. And it might not even be that you're looking at something.

[00:02:26] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Tells you, you have high relative humidity, but you start getting those musty odors that start coming from the basement, or, potentially if you have a crawl space, even from down there. This is the time of year where, it starts rearing its ugly head of what's going on below your home as well as, you know, potential.

[00:02:46] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Inside your entire

[00:02:47] Eric Goranson: home. Well, you and I were talking before we jumped on about, uh, Washington state is changing some rules around up there, which in construction right now is making it difficult or creating some new [00:03:00] situations for builders remodelers up there with how they're changing. You know, the rules of where equipment goes or where it suggested or what they're incentivizing.

[00:03:10] Eric Goranson: Yeah.

[00:03:10] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: They're incentivized and, kudos to them because ultimately our HPAC equipment should be in conditioned spaces. And so what they're doing is they're incentivizing builders with their of certificates, uh, that if they choose. She put the equipment in a encapsulated crawl space or an in claps that capsulated addict that, they re received these incentives from Washington state.

[00:03:36] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And so what we're seeing is, typically in the Northwest crawl spaces, aren't encapsulated they're just venting. Yeah. And in part of the reason is, you know, do points have traditionally been low in the Northwest until you get to the real Marine, uh, areas. And then, the same with attics and that the condition addicts is unconditioned addicts across [00:04:00] the country is common.

[00:04:02] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But I think overall, we're going to see building codes all over the country incentivize. Putting that equipment in the attic, even in condition spaces. But I think we're seeing some confusion up in the, in the Northwest is, you know, okay, so I'm going to put this HVAC equipment in the crawl space.

[00:04:21] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Now I need to condition it, which means, closing it up or encapsulated. Uh, but then, what's the next step. You've got to be able to add some sort of moisture control now in that space, because you want to protect that HPAC equipment down there. So it doesn't condense and all that. And then also you're going to be getting moisture buildup now that there is not air flow going through, like when, when events were open, like.

[00:04:50] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: It was happening. Of course it never really, those vents don't work the way that you, you traditionally think, I mean, air doesn't come in one vent, go straight across the [00:05:00] crawlspace and out the other back. I mean, that's the stack effect doesn't work that way.

[00:05:03] Eric Goranson: No, it's interesting. So my house is built 1977 and it is probably our most common situation on the west coast.

[00:05:11] Eric Goranson: Of Oregon and Washington where I'm at here, because I have some insulation going up against the foundation wall. I have vents, I've got, dirt crawlspace floor with six mil plastic down and no insulation between the crawl space and the floor above it. It's all around the perimeter and the vans.

[00:05:33] Eric Goranson: That's how most of these homes are here that are built in. Prior to 1990, uh, the only time you get into basements or new custom homes or homes that were built, kind of pre world war two, where they put in that the basement down there, and then there were just low sellers. Really. There's not too many that had real tall ceilings.

[00:05:54] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Well, and the research that I've done is what we see in the Northwest is [00:06:00] really when you get your high humidity is during the winter season. And so if you think about that that's when our stack effect is greatest and that's when we're going, our houses are like balloons, right? We turn the heat on and the house turns up to a big balloon, which means everything that is below that home, in that crawl space is now being sucked up into the home.

[00:06:24] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So we really want to move that building envelope from. Underneath that floor to including that crawl space and controlling the airflow, the moistures, the allergens, all the bad stuff that could build up in our crawlspace from coming into the rest of the home. And you know, you really do want that.

[00:06:46] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Even when you close it or encapsulate it, you still wanted it as isolated from the living space as possible because there is, it, especially if you're in areas where they're spraying for bugs [00:07:00] and termites, you know, below the home, you don't want that easily communicating and coming up to the rest of the house, there's a lot of pressure treated.

[00:07:10] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Used for foundations. You don't want those chemicals that are offgassing coming up into the home. So even as, as pretty, as encapsulated crawl spaces, look, and and you can use them for storage and all that. You still don't want a lot of communication with, with that, with the rest of the house.

[00:07:29] Eric Goranson: Mm. I love that smell of creosote in the morning

[00:07:34] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: or

[00:07:34] Caroline Blazovsky: Pressure treated lumber has its own interesting smell.

[00:07:37] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Exactly.

[00:07:39] Eric Goranson: I was just going to say, I lived in Tacoma, Washington for awhile in that area. And that's where on the west coast, where they used to make a lot of that stuff. And railroad ties in the old creosote days when they would put those chemicals that were very toxic in all that pressure treated wood.

[00:07:55] Eric Goranson: And I can't believe as a kid, how many times we were playing on playground equipment and [00:08:00] everything else, it was made out of that same material, but very, very deadly materials put into that. What well,

[00:08:07] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: and it's just, you knew were outside playing on it. Now, if you put it in a, in a confined space and the habit, you know, emitting continuously into the rest of the house.

[00:08:17] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So you wanna, you want to make sure that there's not a lot of communication at all. We actually But why, but it's been like six years ago and now we developed a two day building science, uh, encapsulation, uh, course. And we teamed up with Dr. Joe Steenberg, Alison bales uh, building science experts for the pest industry to put together this, this course that really focuses on the how to do it.

[00:08:47] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Because an understanding how vapor. And because pressure pressures are huge, right? So, because you don't want to do a halfway [00:09:00] job in closing up across space, you can cause more problems by not doing it correctly and thinking about how the building is working and how the outside is affecting the inside.

[00:09:12] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And so, and it's been a very, very, uh, popular. Chorus, because again, it's focusing on the building science, it's not talking about, you know, just dehumidifiers, dehumidifiers. No, it's how all this has to work together. And there are several ways to meet code for quote unquote conditioning across space. But there's only one way that truly.

[00:09:38] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Addresses the humidity to a set point, and that's a dehumidifier you can do, you know, exhaust and supply and trying to use the HPAC system. I had to crawl spaces here in Northern Virginia that were habitat. That we're both on basically the same lot. They just split it and they were both built [00:10:00] to EarthCraft, uh, building certification, which is, uh, you know, as, as a very good energy efficiency code and in one crawl space.

[00:10:08] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: We, so we encapsulated in both one, we used supply. Uh, air from the HPAC system, cause that meets code to condition. And it's very inexpensive upfront that for builders to use that it's very inexpensive. They got the system there. All you're going to do is, is, is put in a supply register. And and then in the other one we put in a dehumidifier and we monitored on both and we started monitoring them in April.

[00:10:36] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And instantly we were getting alerts that the one that was using the supply air was above 70%. Well, in April, we're not running a lot of air conditioning and that's what you're counting on. You're counting on the thermostat in the living space, which is being controlled by the homeowner to run in order to supply [00:11:00] enough dry, cool air into the crawlspace.

[00:11:05] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Control the relative humidity. And, and then you're putting cool air into a cool space already. So to me, it just doesn't make a lot of sense, but all spring summer fall that crawlspace was consistently above 70% RH. And the one with the dehumidifier in it never went above. We set it to 60% and it, it never went above.

[00:11:28] Caroline Blazovsky: I think too, it's a misconception, like a lot of homeowners come to me and they say, oh, I have a conditioned basement. So I don't have to use a dehumidifier. And what Nikki's saying is that you can't, you know, you're relying on a thermostat that's placed upstairs, controlling your temperature. Your basement is always going to be vastly different from the rest of the house.

[00:11:47] Caroline Blazovsky: If not five to 10 degrees cooler. Exactly. That HVAC is never going to kick on, or it's going to kick on too much and make that space even colder, causing even more condensation. So that's why you almost want to not [00:12:00] disconnect that thermostat from that basement completely and that register and that supply get rid of it and then control it with your own either temperature gauge and then using your DQ.

[00:12:09] Caroline Blazovsky: It works the best. I mean, that's what we've been doing for years. Cause we can't, we can't get it to navigate with the HPAC system unless it's on its own.

[00:12:16] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Well, it seems when you do that supply only system down there, all you're doing is mixing that humidity within the rest of the house, but you still haven't addressed the humidity issue.

[00:12:26] Eric Goranson: Now you're taking that humid crawl space or basement. You're moving the air technically up into the living space, but it's still humid.

[00:12:33] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yeah. Cause you have now, like you're saying, I mean, you've now provided the pathway for air communication between the two space. Got a freeway going now. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[00:12:46] Eric Goranson: And in like here in the wintertime and the Pacific Northwest, like we were just talking about my air conditioner. I mean, most people around here, they put the cover over their outside compressor on an air conditioner and it's, doesn't come on for, for five [00:13:00] months because we're down in the, you know, we're 70% humidity outside, 80% humidity outside raining and 42 degrees.

[00:13:08] Eric Goranson: And the problem is, is all that humidity. There's no way to remove that humidity out of the air inside the house when you do it that way.

[00:13:15] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Well, and especially, , due points are probably still fairly low because the temperature is low. So do points are still, probably fairly low, but it's all the moisture that's trapped inside as well.

[00:13:25] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Cause the tighter we build these homes in. Uh, heating, dominated climates where we haven't thought we've always thought about, oh, we need to add moisture. Cause we're, we're heating. We need to add it. But we're building homes so tight now, which is great because then we can control airflow. But we've got to address that buildup of the moisture that we're trapping inside also, which typically would be bringing in outdoor dryer.

[00:13:54] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And, and helping dilute that, but it's, , it's the spring summer fall that [00:14:00] it's, that's where your challenge is true to a set relative humidity. I know that there are, you know, cause we do the whole house, but a lady dehumidifiers and you know, we hear. More and more, well, you know, I have a, an HPAC system that is variable speed, and it's got, you know, our guide ductless mini split, and it's got dry modes.

[00:14:22] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: What's going to do a really good job of focusing on that moisture. But the reality is, is the closer that those systems get to your set point on the thermostat. There, their water removal basically is, is, is diminished completely. They're not removing any moisture so that it'll come on and it'll have a slow error.

[00:14:46] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Uh, the, the fans slowed down to keep more of a consistent temperature throughout the house. But now it's basically not focusing on removing any more water. It's just, it can't, it's not the way that those systems [00:15:00] work and dry mode is. Over cooling. Yeah. Try to remove more. I would say more and more, we usually say, keep it at 55.

[00:15:10] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: For, for basements and crawl spaces, 50, really for health, right? 50 is where the ideal health. If we look at the charts out there of what can happen when you're below and above, but 50 is ideal. But then as we start scooting, scooting up, now, if you keep that 61% for. Extended period of time, everything in your houses absorb.

[00:15:36] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That moisture. Right? So we have a lot of people now they're like, I want 45. We, we call it the San Diego effect. Right. He wants, we want all the time to be like 75 degrees and 45% relative humidity. That's where they're most comfortable. And, you know, there's, there's nothing wrong going much below that.

[00:15:55] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: It's just using energy at that point. You don't want to get too dry, but you do really want to [00:16:00] control. So, you know, like I said, in the spring time, if you're consistently above that 55, 60%, we got to remember that this is where we start our moisture loading. We call it. So spring comes and everything in your house starts absorbing that moisture, that dry wall, the couch, the mattress, the flooring, the dust.

[00:16:22] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yeah. Everything is enjoying that moisture. And. If we don't find a way to wet and dry and wet and dry, then what's going to happen is come September. Usually August, September is when we get the majority of our calls where the evidence of moisture loading, which we refer to as microbial growth. Because it starts appearing on our walls.

[00:16:48] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That's when people start taking things out of their closet and they, and they're seeing, you know, mold growth on their clothes, anything leather, that's where it's always that, you know, pulling out the leather, track it. [00:17:00] And so it's because we haven't dried at all. We're just continually moisture loading to the point where those things, you can't see condensation, but it, they can't absorb any more, more.

[00:17:13] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So that's where we start getting that surface, uh, where it's moist enough for stuff to happen.

[00:17:19] Eric Goranson: Yeah. Seasonally. That's where it happens for us as right now for us, because we've had that extended winter of high humidity. Our summers are super dry after, you know, 4th of July weekend. We won't see rain, significant rainfall and humidity until September.

[00:17:36] Eric Goranson: So that's our dry season. So it's a little different for us where everybody else has got the humidity load. Ours is over here at about another four to six weeks. And then we get into summertime when we dry everything out, the air conditioner takes us down and we almost. Humidifiers in certain areas versus dehumidifiers.

[00:17:55] Eric Goranson: And so it's the exact opposite, but it's the same battle. I mean, I was down in Florida for the [00:18:00] kitchen of Bastow earlier this year and I can't stand staying in a freaking Orlando hotel cause I'm going to go grab it's a musty mess.

[00:18:08] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yup. Yup. It's very challenging for those cells.

[00:18:13] Caroline Blazovsky: Nikki. Can you tell, can you tell everybody, so one of the reasons we want to use these freestanding dehumidifiers is also two-fold and when I'm looking at a home and trying to create a healthy environment, I want to increase my filtration as much as possible.

[00:18:27] Caroline Blazovsky: And so that may be filtering on your HVAC. But that could be including a filter on your vacuum, a filter on your dehumidifier, adding any kind of additional filtration to remove particulate. Allergens mold is helpful in the space and we can't always do it with HVAC. Like you said, because we're not always running the unit.

[00:18:44] Caroline Blazovsky: So explain your product in particular offers filtration like no other. So we're killing what I call two birds with one stone, making sure that we're getting multiple uses out of a, a technology or an accessory. So explain how you do that with.

[00:18:59] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: [00:19:00] Sure. So for the freestanding, oh, well, all of our D humidifiers, whether they are the stand-alone free-standing ones or the whole house ventilating all comes standard with a Merv 13 filter.

[00:19:12] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And the reason that ultimately we went with the Merv 13 is because our we're starting to see building code require Merv 13 filtration for ventilator. So if a builder's trying to meet a ventilation call code by bringing in outdoor air, which is in California, it's standard that you have to use Merv 13 filtration.

[00:19:36] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Oh, I hear Eric, Eric. Did someone

[00:19:39] Caroline Blazovsky: say

[00:19:39] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Murph?

[00:19:43] Caroline Blazovsky: Oh, no. Merv is sexy. Bringing the Merv back.

[00:19:48] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Is that a bow Chicka bow kind of

[00:19:53] Caroline Blazovsky: we made Merv hot.

[00:19:58] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So. [00:20:00] So it's very, it's very effective, right? So whether it's it's halls, but for standalone, what's great about it is we know that up to 50% of the air that's below your home basement or crawl space is going to make its way into the living space. So we can filter that air below the home and our crawl space or basement.

[00:20:21] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: With that Merv 13 filtration, before it even gets up to living space. W we're, we're knocking down a lot of that, those allergens and contaminants right there.

[00:20:31] Caroline Blazovsky: Say that again for our listeners. So how much of the air in your home is, comes from your basement or your crawl space? Cause most my clients don't even go in their basement of their crawlspace.

[00:20:39] Caroline Blazovsky: They ignore it and they think it just is okay. That they forget about it. How much did you say?

[00:20:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: 50% up to 50%. And you know, one of the new statistics out and. I'll have to look to see who the organization is. Well, first of all, the EPA has deemed indoor air quality. As one of the top [00:21:00] five, uh, hazardous, uh, things affecting our health right now, and six out of 10 homes have poor indoor air.

[00:21:14] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Nice. So whether that, I mean, maybe it, that is, you know, if we can, if we can focus on our basement and cross space, uh, with, with that filtration and controlling the relative humidity th that could change everything for, for a home right there. So when we think about relative humidity, we're not just talking about.

[00:21:35] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: With a relative humidity is high. All the products that come into your home are made of materials that have chemicals, and we call those volatile organic compounds or VOC. And when the relative humidity gets high, those materials will off gas at a higher rate [00:22:00] for a longer period of time. And so.

[00:22:03] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: People who have never had chemical sensitivities before might experience, you know, they don't know what's going on. Like I don't have allergies, but yet I'm not, I'm getting headaches, not feeling well in my home. And it could just be that. And then you get people who are very sensitive to chemicals and, and their environment.

[00:22:24] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And that becomes even more important. For them? No, I was going to say

[00:22:29] Caroline Blazovsky: too. And that's why you start to smell those odors and those nasties when your humidity starts to get high. So people say, well, I never smelt must before and my house. And now all of a sudden I smell mold. That's the reason your humidity sort of Springs loose all of these vaults organics.

[00:22:44] Caroline Blazovsky: That's sprinkled through the air and now you smell it.

[00:22:47] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Absolutely also grade

[00:22:48] Eric Goranson: for the spiders and the road pasts and all that other stuff. It makes it a much more enjoyable environment for them as well.

[00:22:56] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Absolutely. Welcome to the.

[00:22:59] Eric Goranson: Yup. [00:23:00] Yup. You have now you have now turned it very comfortable for them

[00:23:05] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: and then they, and then, you know, the, what you hate worst is when they say colonized, you've now have, uh, you know, pets that have colonized.

[00:23:16] Eric Goranson: That's what that flag in my crawlspace was,

[00:23:21] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: claim their

[00:23:21] Eric Goranson: territory.

[00:23:25] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And then we look at like the whole house ventilating, dehumidifier, and you get like, you know, three, what do we call kind of the holy grail of indoor air quality. And in one product we can do mechanical ventilation in order to bring out in that outdoor.

[00:23:41] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: We have filtration. So not only are we filtering that outdoor air before it comes in, but also when the dehumidifiers running, it's filtering all that air in the home, uh, that's going through the dehumidifier and then we're controlling that relative humidity for the entire homes. So it's, it's [00:24:00] really a major component into what we look at for a, uh, a comfortable, healthy, sustainable.

[00:24:06] Eric Goranson: You know, Nikki, I've seen stats down in Florida in the south where you get down into the Southern side of the U S and even further south outside of the continental United States. But I've seen where you can actually, or I've seen claims that you can actually double the lifespan of your, of your air conditioner by putting in a unit like that, to take that load off of that, to reduce the humidity inside the home.

[00:24:34] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: I have heard that as well. You know, it's all a matter of, uh, you know, you're, you're putting a lot of work on a a major engine or the major component in the house and it's the fan, it's the compressor. It's the coils that, you know, potentially that, that could affect the lifespan. For us it's it's really, we want to set up [00:25:00] the air conditioner, what we call it as the air conditioners king.

[00:25:04] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Right? So when the air conditioner is running, it should be removing the most amount of moisture possible. When it's. But it's, you know, as, as the gentlemen who invented these, said that, you know, every king needs a queen. And when the king is sleeping, which is overnight times and shoulder seasons He needs this, he needs this quake.

[00:25:28] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: He needs something to control that relative humidity when that thermostat is not focusing on getting to that set point, uh, for us to feel comfortable, Sierra every

[00:25:41] Caroline Blazovsky: king needs a

[00:25:42] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: queen.

[00:25:47] Eric Goranson: What am I readjust the throat? There we go. Thank you, Nikki.

[00:25:56] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: All right there.

[00:25:59] Eric Goranson: I feel [00:26:00] like I'm getting ganged up on all of a sudden. Well, make you, the other thing is too is even in the desert, Southwest dehumidifiers can be something important.

[00:26:12] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Believe when I got that first call. And I had a gentlemen that wanted to, uh, buy a dehumidifier in Phoenix, Arizona.

[00:26:20] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: I was like, oh, oh, you mean humidifier? And he's like, no, Nope. He's like, obviously you don't understand monsoon season down here. Never thought of it. Never thought of it, but we. Uh, sell quite a few dehumidifiers into, uh, the, the, those dry climates that you would never think of. And then again, our, our building construction techniques are changing.

[00:26:49] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Our HPAC equipment is becoming more and more energy efficient. So it's focusing on that temperature, which means the more energy efficient it is typically [00:27:00] the less amount of water it reduces. And then we have, you know, aquariums and water features and, and all this stuff that we see in these more desert claims that.

[00:27:13] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Eric loves the steam shower, showers more and more where we're at. You know, people are asking us, I want a dehumidifier just for my steam shower. You know, my bathroom was this bathroom shower, actually what in Michigan, I just had, it's a passive house and, uh, it's so tight and they wanted a dehumidifier just for that space.

[00:27:36] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But the reality is, is we want to ventilate that. As much as possible when we're using it and then we'll have a dehumidifier for the entire home to help control that humidity as it, as it migrates from the bathroom, which w whatever, doesn't make it out migrates to the rest of the house, but just to focus on a dehumidifier for that space can be challenged.[00:28:00]

[00:28:00] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: What I did

[00:28:00] Eric Goranson: in my bathroom real quick, just to address that as I put in right outside the door, I have 120 CFM fan going directly, straight up outside. So it's got like a three foot tube on it. So it's as direct out as it's going to get. And then I put in my Airmont a drying system. So I'm pumping in a few hundred CFM into the shower, which now has.

[00:28:24] Eric Goranson: All that humidity and drying the shower, which is pushing it right out in ops. I'm almost over pressurizing the room a little bit, but it's pushing it right out to the top. And that was how I battled it because I was worried about the same kind of thing. And

[00:28:37] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: you're in a climate where. You know, you have a little bit more room for me for air, you know, if that doesn't work perfectly.

[00:28:46] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But if you know, you, you gotta be it's, that would have to be really engineered for, uh, the Southeast. If, if someone were going to try to do that, I mean, uh, not sure, you know what, [00:29:00] I'm sure people have done it and it probably worked perfectly, but, uh, you'd have to be very careful in a, in a hot humid. Oh, yeah.

[00:29:07] Eric Goranson: And that's not me.

[00:29:10] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That's not you Nikki

[00:29:12] Caroline Blazovsky: explained to, to our listening audience and I don't want people going to the extreme, right. So the reason you want to use the dehumidifier is so that you get this optimal range because you don't want to go too low either. So just explain to people what happens if you try to overdo humidifier, take too much of the moisture out, which isn't good.

[00:29:30] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That's, that's a really good point because what we see is a lot of organizations You know, the American lung association the, the ASHRAE, which is our HPAC kind of governing body, uh, that the American medical association that throw out these ranges, right? Like, so they're saying that you want to keep your humidity between 30 and 60% and 50 is ideal for.

[00:29:56] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But for sustainability and for [00:30:00] protecting our homes 30 to, to 60 is ideal. So we get calls from people who are like, okay. I it's, you know, July in new Orleans and I want my humidity at 30%. Because they've heard this range. So if, if fifties good forties butter in thirties gotta be best. It's like, well, no, that's not.

[00:30:22] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That's not how it works. 30 is actually in the, in the heating times of the year. So in the winter time, you might need to add some humidity into your home for it not to be too dry and uncomfortable. And when that happens, our nasal passages dry. And then viruses and bacteria make its way into our, our throats and our lungs and that sort of thing.

[00:30:47] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So from a house standpoint, if you can get to 30 in the winter time, that's ideal. I lived in an 1870s home in Wisconsin, and if I could get to [00:31:00] 20, I was, I was lucky in a leaky house in winter time. Right. So, but then in the spring, summer and fall, Really that 50% relative humidity trying to control to that is, is ideal because then that way we are, uh, protecting our health we're minimizing viruses and bacteria growth and that sort of thing.

[00:31:23] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And then, you know, as well as protecting our homes. So it's that range that we need to understand, and then we need to understand that, that, that for different times of the year, As well trying to get to 30 in new Orleans in July. It's not, it's never going. Yeah. You're, you're not going to be happy with your electric bill.

[00:31:43] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: If you try to, to achieve that, but that 50% in, in most parts of the country, uh, where we call it green grass climate. So anywhere that you're getting about an inch. Uh, during the spring, summer and fall, and you look outside and the, and you see green [00:32:00] grass, you're probably going to need some level of dehumidification and that could be basement crawl space that could be using your air conditioner, if it will achieve that.

[00:32:11] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And then a whole house dehumidifier. But it's probably going to be a combination

[00:32:16] Eric Goranson: and it's smart because, you know, for instance, here's one thing that I'm always concerned about with homes, especially when you've got hardwood floors and things like that. I like to see it. If you can keep that humidity from bouncing around, from extreme to high, to low, to high, to low, you're not taking that sponge, which is your wood inside the house and making like the kitchen spons that hasn't seen dishes in three or four days and it gets shriveled.

[00:32:42] Eric Goranson: And then when you add all that water to it, it gets expanded out. I like to see, you know, in a perfect role, the more balanced you can keep humidity in the house, the easier it is on the woodwork. Cause you're going to see less cracks. You're going to see less cracks and drywall or plaster. I think it just makes for a happier house

[00:32:58] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: and your.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Caroline Blazovsky: It keeps your paint from bubbling, cracking all of that good stuff that happens when you have these differentials and temperature. We see that a lot in these older houses, like Nikki was saying 18 hundreds, early 19 hundreds. You'll go in and you'll see all the pain is cracked and peeling. And then you get the worry of lead dust because this stuff breaks apart.

[00:33:17] Caroline Blazovsky: And that is from the temperature change. And then the humidity change constantly. So Eric is

[00:33:22] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: growing, you know, a lot. The warranty on your hardwood floors. Most people don't realize that they're in those warranties. They specify you need to keep it. The RH controlled in that house because of, you know, uh, the, the cupping and all of that.

[00:33:39] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So if somebody sees that on their wood floors and calls to make a warranty, They're probably going to ask you how you were controlling the relative humidity on the, in the house. And I never knew that crazy cabinets, your wood cabinets, the same thing I was going

[00:33:55] Eric Goranson: to say in cabinetry. Great example. So people go, I want to have solid wood doors, [00:34:00] right on a flat contemporary, solid wood door.

[00:34:02] Eric Goranson: That's why in cabinetry, they go to veneers and they don't. Solid wood doors to states like Hawaii or down south as often because people aren't controlling that humidity, even on the job site where the house is being built, those doors will cup and warp. So on cabinetry doors, they will go with the veneers on that for something that's going to be much more stable.

[00:34:22] Eric Goranson: You can't buy a cabinet in Hawaii, for instance, that has a solid wood door on it because it's going to warp and they get.

[00:34:30] Caroline Blazovsky: So the MDF is holding up better of the MDF panel, air colds, a better for a climate where you maybe don't have as much conditioning, they'll

[00:34:38] Eric Goranson: do plywood. They won't do MDF unless it's painted, but in cabinetry it'll always be a plywood door with a veneer over the top of it, uh, for durability.

[00:34:47] Eric Goranson: And, and that's the way it is. Even if you order some high-end Italian cabinet, they will send you. But they won't do those, those solid wood doors in the humid climates, because you will have a problem. Seasonally. [00:35:00] You'll have to go adjust the cabinet doors a couple of times a year from the look good.

[00:35:03] Eric Goranson: You'll be getting the screwdriver a lot, you know? Okay. Springtime time to adjust, fall, time to adjust. That's how it'll work

[00:35:11] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: well, and that's why, you know, and I'm sure that was driven by warranty, warranty. Call. Uh, to the bills and that's what we're seeing more and more is, you know, with the wood floors, with the paint bubbling that, you know, builders upfront don't want the cost typically of adding the dehumidifier.

[00:35:31] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But at some point the warranty claims and the calls from unhappy customers start out, weighing the cost of adding a commercial grade dehumidifier with a six year warranty. Uh, the unhappy customers and sending people out and subs out and trying to, you know, especially right now, try to find a subcontractor to go out and fix any.

[00:35:55] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Uh, that's challenging. Yep. And I want our

[00:35:58] Caroline Blazovsky: customers and an audience to know [00:36:00] too when you're going to, and I'm sorry to do this, but we call, I call them. And I don't know, we might not say this, but this is my lingo. We call it a home Depot, cheapo, dehumidifier. That is not going to work for you. If you're in these grassy climates.

[00:36:15] Caroline Blazovsky: Now, if you are in Arizona or Palm Springs or places like that, you can get away with using a traditional dehumidifier. But it depends on the time of year, but if you're in these other climates, those units that take out 60 pints or only get down the 65 degree, temperatures are not going to work for you in these other areas of the country.

[00:36:34] Caroline Blazovsky: And unfortunately I love to say, you know, my clients say, well, I'm just going to go get a dehumidifier at, you know, my local hardware store. It just doesn't work that way. You need a commercial grade. So when you hear Nikki saying commercial grade, that's what she's talking about, that these units are specifically designed for these climates.

[00:36:49] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yeah. And so we. We manufacture lots of dehumidifiers for industrial applications, agriculture applications, and the components [00:37:00] use. And those dehumidifiers where they are seeing very corrosive environments, a lot of the time restoration situations where, you know, a hurricane has gone through and you see someone, you know, wheeling in a dehumidifier down these steps and it's bounced around from house to house.

[00:37:18] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Those components are used in our residential dehumidifiers. And so basically, you know, those, our dehumidifiers usually go in and they're placed in a certain spot and that's where they stay. They're not being beaten around. So our components really do. With, with, with stand a lot of what residential applications throw out it, no problem, and are going to last for a longer period of time.

[00:37:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: They go down to lower temperatures. So they're still going to remove water at lower temperatures. And, uh, like I said, you know, this the six year warranty on them. So it's important. We've had people say. You know, it's, it's not your first dehumidifier. Cause people [00:38:00] have to go through the pain of going through all of

[00:38:04] Caroline Blazovsky: the cheap ones,

[00:38:05] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: cheap ones.

[00:38:07] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But, but, but it's your last one, you know? And so you would have to have that dehumidifier graveyard, basically in the corner of your basement, where, you know, every year you're buying a new one before they realize that it's just time to make the investment in. In a commercial grade unit.

[00:38:24] Eric Goranson: I was going to say, go take a look at that graveyard because you could have a recalled one that causes the fires out there.

[00:38:30] Eric Goranson: You might be able to actually go buy a commercial one. If you have enough of those stacked in the corner, you could get some money back on those. So you could add sunny money savings in the bank sitting there in your d'you graveyard, because that could get you reimbursed.

[00:38:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Just sad. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you want to see.

[00:38:48] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Sometimes something scary. You definitely want to, uh, go, uh, go on YouTube and put in a dehumidifier, a recall fire, and you'll see people running out of their houses was [00:39:00] smoking portable dehumidifiers that all of a sudden becoming engulfed in flames because of that. So it is very important. Okay. You know, on, on these, uh, segments to reiterate that you, if you have a portable and it's not brand new to make sure that you go on and check those recalls.

[00:39:16] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Hmm. And

[00:39:17] Caroline Blazovsky: that's, I think part of the problem is too, the units will run and run and run. Like a lot of my customers think their units are working. Cause they'll see this unit and you hear it, it's running and running. And, but no water is actually coming out of your drainage hose and you need to look at that.

[00:39:31] Caroline Blazovsky: And say, okay, well, the unit's running. Do I have water actually being removed? Cause the units basically get to a certain temperature when you buy a cheaper one where they're unable to remove water, but they continue to run. So that's a big, that's another reason. And because the unit continues to run, then you have the potential risk of a fire and it doesn't shut

[00:39:49] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: off.

[00:39:49] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And air movement is very important as well. With the dehumidifier, one

[00:39:54] Eric Goranson: thing I was going to say is we have a problem here on the coast. Uh, for us as we [00:40:00] have a lot of vacation homes along the ocean, and the problem is people spend their summertimes there on the weekends, and then they turn the heat down on the baseboard heat, uh, to keep the pipes from freezing and they walk away for five months.

[00:40:12] Eric Goranson: But we're seeing now that they're remodeling these homes, they're putting on new siding and how straps and new windows, because they're worn out. Now we're seeing out on my area here, tons of mold and mildew issues inside of these things when they walk back in five months later, cause they've had it at 50 degrees for four months.

[00:40:31] Eric Goranson: Is that still a situation where they should be looking at a dehumidifier for those off season months that they're not using that beach cabin basis?

[00:40:40] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yeah. So we, we, we call it a second homes, you know, and, and because we're not conditioning these homes to what we've designed the HPAC systems for, because people aren't there.

[00:40:55] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So we're not worried about comfort. We, we see it a lot in the, you know, if [00:41:00] we, if we look at, you know, quote unquote, snowbird, Uh, down in Florida, but really it's anywhere. There's a second home. You're going to have to think about controlling the moisture. We did a case study down in, uh, the villages, uh, in, uh, Florida where, you know, people leave for the summer time.

[00:41:20] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Uh, and then they come back during the winter months and they're over cooling with the air conditioner to try to control the relative humidity when they're not there, because they don't want to walk back into, you know, assess pool basically. And so what we did is we set the thermostat at 85 degrees and put in a whole house dehumidifier and kept it.

[00:41:45] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: 60% relative humidity. Cause they're really just trying to protect. The contents of the home and they had over 40% energy savings by using the humidifier to focus on the relative [00:42:00] humidity versus trying to use an air conditioner. When nobody's there, we're not worried about the comfort. We're just worried about maintaining that moisture.

[00:42:09] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So it would be, you know, whether it's in the mountains or, you know, the, the Pacific Northwest. If controlling humidity is, is going to help prevent any of that microbial growth, then absolutely. There is a strategy that can be implemented. And usually it's very energy efficient versus the alternatives.

[00:42:32] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And you're

[00:42:32] Caroline Blazovsky: talking about the villages in Florida. I mean, that is a massive compound. I mean, down there, I mean, there's so many units. Could you imagine if every single one of those units had. Yeah,

[00:42:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: because what they've done in the past is, you know, you'll, you'll, they'll override the thermostat with a humidistat and then, you know, for every degree that we cool, the air, the R H automatically goes up 2%.

[00:42:59] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So it's [00:43:00] kind of, you know, counter to what they're trying to achieve because they're over cooling, which is driving the temperature down. Which is getting us closer to condensation, uh, temperatures. So it, it doesn't always work in the real world like it does in our minds. Right? Well, if the AC is running, it's removing water, but if you overrun it and you over cool, it you're, you're creating more problems potentially.

[00:43:26] Caroline Blazovsky: Nikki, just to explain to, and I O w every time we have a guest. The difference when people look at temperature, the difference between sensible heat and latent heat and how you feel temperature. Cause it's really important that people just don't get used to looking at their thermostat and looking at their degree and why that's

[00:43:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: important.

[00:43:44] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Sure. So the sensible is what your thermostat is focusing on, right? So when you go to adjust that temperature, that's called a sensible and the latent is the moisture in the air and you really don't know. [00:44:00] Thermostats do not have a latent, uh, control on it. They might tell you what the relative humidity is.

[00:44:07] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: And you might be able to over cool, but that's not what it's focusing on. It's focusing on getting to that temperature. And when you control the relative humidity in your home, you typically will feel more comfortable at a higher temperature set points. Can result in energy savings. Cause you can increase that thermostat two to three degrees and it probably be more comfortable.

[00:44:33] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: It's the difference between 90 degrees in Arizona and 90 degrees in Florida, typically 90 degrees in Arizona, people are like, this is great. I've seen beautiful out in Florida. Yeah, it's a miserable. So, and that's, that's the difference and you know, every time that you increase that thermostat setting, there [00:45:00] can be, you know, a significant energy savings.

[00:45:03] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: When, when you do that, when you're not running your air conditioner and, you know, uh, we have dehumidifiers that are, are, you know, five, eight, Our smallest units, which up to 1800 square feet, that that is far more energy efficient to use something, to focus on, uh, the relative humidity with five amps, then trying to run the largest system in the house that really is just over cooling and potentially creating a more uncomfortable situation.

[00:45:33] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: How about sizing?

[00:45:34] Caroline Blazovsky: So if you go onto Santa Fe products.com. You are going to see varying degrees and sizes and looks of dehumidifiers. Some are what I call a horizontal unit or a vertical unit. And you have to pick something according to your living space and what's going to what you want and the look and feel.

[00:45:53] Caroline Blazovsky: But there are also vastly different sizing as far as your pint removal. So when customers go [00:46:00] onto the site, how do they know what they need? How do they know what size they should acquire and is always, is bigger. Always better.

[00:46:07] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yep. So we have when you go on there, there will be a tab that says, find your IAQ solution, and that will help walk you through if you're looking for a crawlspace or basement or a whole house unit, and then it's going to start going into square footages.

[00:46:23] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So we are very, very conservative. And our recommendations based on square footages. And that's because it's hard to oversize a dehumidifier, but very easy to undersize a dehumidifier. So like, let's say we take our 70 pint, whether it's a whole house or a crawlspace or basement, we save up to 1800 square feet.

[00:46:47] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Now there could be scenarios where you might need more than that. If you're always on the border, like if you are 1800 square feet, 1700 square feet, 1800 go with the next size up. You always [00:47:00] want more capacity because come July 4th, when you have 20 people running in and out of your house, because you're having a party and it becomes very uncomfortable.

[00:47:10] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: You're going to want that extra capacity when it's the rainy season. You're going to want the extra capacity. And there really is not significant, uh, price differences when you start going up. So you always want more now we've, we've seen people out there or companies claim, well, this 70 pint dehumidifier will do 3000 square feet.

[00:47:35] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Well, I mean, there are maybe a couple houses out there and a drier climate where it will do 3000 square feet. But again, you don't want to spend that much. And not get what you're paying for. So you're always, we are, like I said, we are very conservative because we want it to be successful. And we don't want people to be unhappy.

[00:47:56] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: So that walks you through, you know, basically getting [00:48:00] to, uh, the, the general of what you're going to need. Now, if you're doing a whole house system, uh, you probably are going to want to work with your HPAC contractor to make sure that you're taking everything into consideration. Maybe the amount of fresh air that you need to bring in.

[00:48:15] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Maybe you've got 20 foot ceilings which can be very different because then we're looking at cubic square footage versus, you know, our cubic. Feet versus the square footage of the house. So, there are scenarios and you can call us, but we do have a really great new chat bot on our website as well.

[00:48:34] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: That you can just go in and ask a question and hopefully it can get, you answers much quicker than trying to navigate the entire website.

[00:48:42] Eric Goranson: What have we not touched on today that we should be talking about? As far as humidity control controls go.

[00:48:50] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Yeah, I, you know, I think we need to start looking at the mechanical systems in our house and how they need to change [00:49:00] in conjunction with our building, uh, practice.

[00:49:04] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Are changing. It's, you know, we used to have just heating it up and in a lot of our homes, most homes, you know, didn't have air conditioning. That was a luxury. And now air conditioning standard, right? You would never not have air conditioning in a, in a home. And I think that's where we are going with dehumidification as well.

[00:49:23] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: When we look at, you know, moisture's the number one, To a building and how it affects our health also that it can't be looked at as just, well, we're going to count on the air conditioner to do that. We've really got to think about our moisture control strategies and, you know, again, it might just be controlling underneath the home and, and that's all we need to do.

[00:49:45] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: But in, you know, when we get into more hot humid climates, the entire home really needs to be looked at as what is my moisture control stress. And I

[00:49:55] Caroline Blazovsky: have gizmos all over my house and as a healthy home expert, I hope that my house [00:50:00] is somehow a, is a, is a demo model. But years and years ago, I went from checking that temperature gauge to automatically always checking humidity.

[00:50:09] Caroline Blazovsky: And, and that not only makes you feel better because it, it, you actually, as Nikki was explaining, if your humidity is high, you're going to be unconscious. But then it also helps you to say, oh, I have to do something with my monitors going off. And I've got to control that. So I don't get bugs and pests and dust mites and mold and all of these things.

[00:50:27] Caroline Blazovsky: So I think that we are moving in a direction. Everyone needs a dehumidifier as far as I'm concerned. And if you don't have one, when you do have it, it's going to be such a luxury to you that you're going to appreciate just the health and wellness.

[00:50:39] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: Well, especially when you look at the increase of allergies and asthma in our country people are very sensitive.

[00:50:45] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: We have respiratory issues. Uh, so controlling humidity, uh, is a big part of that.

[00:50:51] Eric Goranson: And the best way to get you is over on

[00:50:52] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: the website. Www we even say that anymore. I don't know if they say that anymore. [00:51:00] It's Santa dash Fe. Dash products.com. Perfect.

[00:51:06] Eric Goranson: Nikki Kerger. Thanks for coming on today. It's always a blast and always looking forward to that.

[00:51:11] Eric Goranson: Thank

[00:51:11] Nikki Krueger Santa Fe: you. I appreciate it. Have a great day. I'm Eric Jan, Caroline B,

[00:51:16] Eric Goranson& Caroline Blazovsky: and you've been listening to around the house.