00:00:06 Sana: What if burnout isn't the price of ambition, but the price of becoming someone you are not? Well, a lot of people hear burnout and assume that it's just too much of workload, stress and pressure. Too many meetings, too many deadlines, too many commitments, too many late nights. But sometimes the deeper exhaustion isn't from the number of hours. It's from the identity we are carrying while we work those hours. The version of ourselves we feel we have to be to earn love, relevance, security or success. Today,

00:00:50 Sana: on this episode of the Mindful Living Podcast, listeners, we are exploring a tough and honest question. When burnout hits, what exactly collapses? Is it your schedule or your sense of self? My guest, Dylan Clayton, founder of sunny HQ, a human first WordPress hosting and support company built around clarity, simplicity and real support from real people. Now, let me share a bit about Dylan with all of you listeners before sunny HQ. Dylan ran a creative agency for more than a decade on the outside. On paper, it all looked successful, but then behind the scenes, he was stuck in reactive work, subjective deliverables and systems that drained more than they gave. So his burnout wasn't just working too hard, it was more like building a version of success that wasn't even aligned with who he actually was, and that collapse forced him to confront stress. At the root level, like nervous system overload, constant performance and living in reaction rather than presence and mindfulness for him wasn't a productivity hack, it was survival. So with that, he also has written a book which is called The Seven Mirrors, exploring how awareness and self-inquiry reshape mental health, how we build our lives and businesses. But listeners, today, we are definitely, definitely going to dive deep more into the world of mindfulness. So, Dillon, welcome to the show. And as always, it's really an honor having you here with us.

00:02:39 Dylan Bost: Oh, thank you so much, Sana. I really appreciate it.

00:02:43 Sana: Um, uh, you know.

00:02:46 Sana: Something that really kind of struck a chord with me when when I was reading through the intro. Um, and this is something that usually gets portrayed a lot popularly and specifically around mindfulness, that it is some kind of a magic potion, a magic trick, or, you know, some kind of a hack in there, especially for productivity. But for you, it was survival. So if you can, you know, um, shed some light on that. For our listeners, how exactly became survival for you in your journey?

00:03:20 Dylan Bost: Well, yeah, I think, you know, um, well, mindfulness, let's just say to me, mindfulness is the gap between stimulus and response. So it's in that gap is leadership. And so without it, I'm just another reactive founder pushing energy around. Um, and so, you know, I found that mindfulness is so key to and like you said, no, it's not this mystical wandering thing. Yes, it normally exists and is talked about in, in that sense. But there's a very I mean, extremely not just practical, but necessary, um, behavior, uh, that you need to build or that that I believe is important to, to not just running business, but but essentially living our life. You know, I think that, um, for me, um, mindfulness plays a really key role in, in my everyday, um, you know, how I practice some of those things, um, you know, morning meditation. In fact, I have, um, kind of a three part, I call it the three M's. Um, because it's meditation movement and mantra and, and so in those moments, you know, obviously meditation pretty straightforward. And, and I know people, you know, there's listeners out there, they're like, I can't meditate, I can't meditate. Um, and that's fine. Right? I mean, I think that that that meditation can be done in a lot of different formats. Yes, it can be done sitting on the ground. Um, it can be done sitting in a chair. You can have walking meditation, you can have driving, meditation, washing the dishes, meditation. It's just important to do that. And then some body movement. Um, fifteen minutes. This isn't like strenuous exercise, but keep in mind we're we're pulling our body out of this state where it's been relaxing. And so rather than just kind of jetting into the day, it's good to just move your body around. Um, and then mantra for me, that's a, you know, a series of statements that, that I have, you know, I mean, out of habit really memorized. Um, and, and it shifts and changes, um, over time and, and new things enter into that. And there's some prayer built into that as well. But that, for me, sets forward the day, you know, what I found. And I think we hear more and more about this every day, you know, self-talk. Right. So mantra is a form of self-talk. I'm telling, you know, I'm projecting forward. This is what I want my day to be like. Um, but it's really important. That sets the pace for me. Um, you know, another really simple one. The breath. Right. Breathe. Before we have difficult conversations. Breathe before the podcast. You know, deep breath. Breathe before you know you're entertaining someone. Breathe. Just, you know, we we discount this thing of the breath because we do it all the time. But it's really, really important to begin practicing breathing really into our, our lower, into our solar plexus and into our stomach instead of high up in our chest. Um, that high energy pushes energy up into our head, and we think that our brains got to drive the boat, when in reality, it's our whole being that needs to be responsive to our environment. So those are just a couple ways, but I think it really is integral because it helps me to slow my pace. It helps me to think, um, more objectively about situations. Um, and it helps me to really move out of reaction, um, even small reaction. Right. So I think everyone can relate to this. You get that email, it's from a client. Something's gone wrong. You immediately kind of take the short breath and you're like, I've gotta fix it right now. Well, I'd love yeah, I'd love that. You know, the, you know, and most people have heard this because it's been in the zeitgeist for, for a couple decades. But, you know, Navy Seal snipers, right? They slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. So if you pick that apart, you know, the reality is that's so meaningful to me. So, you know, rather than try to get it done as fast as possible, we want to get it done to our best ability. Right. And that may take a couple of extra seconds. It may take a couple of extra minutes. It might take a couple extra hours. But in reality it's a lot faster in the long run to take that time upfront, respond accordingly to the situation and achieve a good outcome rather than try to achieve a fast outcome.

00:07:38 Sana: And you know, Dylan.

00:07:40 Sana: You hit the nail on there because this is something that for me also, it's work in progress. I mean, I for the fact that. Yes, it's fine. It's okay. You don't have to immediately address to it, but maybe I can keep it somewhere in the corner of my mind and just relax and then think about it, because, um, in those immediate moments, we are either driven by emotions or impatience or this, you know, this, um, this very uncomfortable feeling or nudge that we need to finish this immediately. Then only I can rest. Then only can, then only I can have some sense of relief.

00:08:21 Dylan Bost: Right? Yeah. You know, we celebrate that. I think the biggest problem we celebrate this, especially in the US, right? Speed and efficiency. Um, we, you know, we give that pat on the back when you get it done, when in reality, right. We know the journey is, is the most important part. And you know when I look at that, you know what you just said. One of the things I try to do is, is I don't try to eliminate the stress from the moment, but I do really focus on metabolizing it in real time. So as I'm feeling something, it's absolutely driven by emotion. My need to get it done, my need to fix, um, whatever your subscription is, right? I mean, I think that that the important thing is, is that we really think about and embody how we want to show up in that situation. That's the key is really how do we want to show up? Not how do we want to solve it immediately? Um, because most often and I see this every, every day. So we're dealing with things in sunny HQ, you know, client issues all the time that can get really, really complicated, right? We can you know, most people know I mean, web development, um, web hosting service and support in that environment. When something goes wrong with the website, um, it can be a pretty complicated thing. And what I've found is, is a super important thing. Is that ability the only way that we can step back, right. The only way we can zoom out is to give ourselves a gap. So if we jump right in, we're utilizing. Let's think about this in logical terms. Right. We're our brain's a computer, and we are essentially compiling all the information that we have to date, you know, all the experiences that we've had. So we immediately pull from, oh, yeah, that's just like this and this is like that. And so this is the way you do it. Well, maybe, but maybe not. Um, in my experience, it's like, man, crazy things happen. And so it can be really, really important. This is one of the most difficult things I find to teach my support team is to is to. And the opportunity is usually to take a step back, take a deep breath, take a step back, look at what's happening, and give yourself a minute. Because most oftentimes it's like I'll find that we'll jump right into something thinking it's one thing when in reality it's not just a pivot, it's a complete sea change. Right? It's a it's like you've got to zoom out from that column and look at the ten other columns that are available to you and go, oh, wait a minute. This thing over here is, is affecting that. And that's where the problem is. Or it might be something as simple in that world is, hey, let's just let's just restore the backup. Um, and instead of trying to go in and twist all the knobs and turn all the dials and push all the buttons, well, let's just restore that and then see what happens and then go into it methodically. Um, and it's really interesting. Right? We because of that kind of urgency, um, and I stress the urgency has really no place in business. I mean, you know, unless you're a policeman or a paramedic responding to. And even in that case. Right. Those people are trained to deal with that urgency. Right? They're they're trained to not run right in and try to deal with the problem, ask themselves questions. And so it is really, really important to to do those things. Is.

00:11:41 Sana: The key word here is the training. And this is something, um, I mean, it could be off topic, but a kind of a similar, similar, um, dilemma that I see amongst, you know, high performers, individual performers who have great numbers. And, um, it's kind of in the trend that, you know, they'll be, um, automatically, uh, assumed as good leaders, as good people managers, but then maybe they are not aware, accustomed, or they may not be completely aware about how to actually, you know, what are the daily day to day activities of a people manager? What exactly do you need? It's not just the performance or the numbers or the inputs and outputs, but other than that, because here you are not just individually performing. You have people who are directly looking up to you, uh, for whom you are actually responsible and accountable as well. So I think the key word here training. It has so many applications and different different aspects of life, you know, whether it's our workplaces or our personal lives.

00:12:50 Dylan Bost: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the training, that training part is, is really important. And two, I think it's important, you know, once you get in that team environment, it's so dynamic, right. I mean, it's it's interesting how, you know, we're driven from this place of, of, of, of those numbers. And, and a lot of times we remove the human side of it out, not just from the manager to, you know, to the staff, but even the manager side of it, you know, they tend to be judged right on, on the performance of the team. And, and, and I think that training aspect of, of injecting into that situation the human side, the reality is we're better as a team. If we grow as a team, we're better as a team. If we evaluate things, you know, Outside of of the perceived success of it. And, and I think that that that is I'm seeing that more and more in business today. I hope it continues to flourish because I think it's a very powerful tool.

00:13:51 Speaker 4: It is. It is.

00:13:53 Sana: Um, I mean, I have had a lot of questions like, you know, barraging in my mind. But one particular kind of question comes here in, I mean, when you realized, you know, while, um, working at, um, my managing everything, being in that, uh, position, running Sony HQ, that you are being more reactive, um, and, uh, there is no proper not structure, but it's it's kind of not an orderly chaos. Um, and this is affecting you from, from all the sides, like, not just physically but emotionally, spiritually, mentally. Um, what was the first, um, you know, answer that your inner self gave to you. Is it that you are not having control or you are not being in the present because you know, especially the people who are either high achievers or in leadership position, they would they would love to have control. So something, you know, on the other side of the discussion, like mindfulness or all these, you know, um, quote unquote high level concepts people would call they would not be in, in, you know, their mind.

00:15:10 Dylan Bost: Well, yeah, it's an answer that I've got to go back because I think that I rebuilt sunny HQ in with mindfulness kind of at its core. And so if I go back to the business that I ran before, um, it was all all reactionary. It was all driven by basically. Yes, we planned and and you know, I don't want to indicate that we definitely had plans, but. And that business was a was a marketing agency. And so it was very client driven. And for anyone in those industries, God bless you. Because the reality is it's it's really important the closer you are in that client side to, to develop these skills. Um, because the way that my day typically went was, you know, basically watch your email for what's going to happen and then play whack a mole. Um, and, and, you know, there's this perceived, um, you know, competence there because you're like, well, I'm solving problems and I'm, I'm, I'm making things happen. But in reality, you know, you're on a treadmill there, right? You're never truly, um, and especially from a higher end leadership position when you're that mired in those details on a regular basis, you're not effectively, you know, shifting change. You're not leaving yourself open to, um, to help your staff, to help managers, to help key staff in, in developing, you know. developing strategies around how to, to to be better as a whole. So you know, what I look at now in sunny HQ is we actually look for any of those opportunities and they're easy to see today. Um, the the less you have of them, of course, when they happen, you know, it's very easy to we definitely solve the challenge at the time, but then, you know, work in a group as in kind of a retrospective fashion and say, okay, here's what happened, here's how we could have dealt with it in a better way. And then even incorporating that, if it's systematic, right. Incorporating that into processes, um, incorporating that into communication, incorporating it so that it's felt by the group. Right. So that people can take ownership over that. And then effectively what that does is long term, it gives them tools so that you don't keep going through the same things. You know, the reality is, if you are experiencing, um, I mean, this is and this is a, you know, on the personal side too, if you're constantly finding yourself dealing with the same issue and these are really easy to see, right? Um, I used to do this all the time and not not realize it, you know? But I look back now and I say, you know, how many times did I get this email from this client constant, and then go into my partner's office and start griping about, man, I can't believe XYZ. This person's asking me this and we don't. Well, you know, that might not be easy to see right when you're in it. But if you take a, you know, take a chance, maybe on a weekly basis to kind of review your week and say, how many times did that thing happen? I think most people will see that the same things are reoccurring, not exactly the same situations, but, you know, the easy way for me to look at it is when I've reacted the same way to something, even if they're kind of different situations, that's something that needs my attention, or I can continue to do that till the end of time, right? Which of course leads to frustration and burnout. Um, very simply. Um, and if I take that opportunity to say, okay, look, when I get an email from a client and, and, and I'm going to react this way, what's the, you know, what's the softer way around that? How can I deal with that? Well, first it's, you know, of course, assess and respond, but then it's what systems did that entail, you know, where are we failing to be proactive about something? Um, and then building that back into the culture and into the systems that support our culture?

00:19:03 Speaker 5: Um, yeah.

00:19:05 Sana: I it's definitely, um, sometimes it can be very difficult to kind of express this, um, in words, but but I can I can actually get a sense of it that. Yes. Um, it definitely kind of needs a lot of clarity and, and awareness and I think these, um, assessments or, um, introspections they, they become a kind of a kind of building blocks, like the fundamentals of how. The how the basic approach towards any project or towards any kind of, you know, activity or situation or challenge you are going through. So they become a part of, like your, um, personality, of course. Workplace.

00:19:55 Dylan Bost: Yeah, absolutely. For sure.

00:19:59 Sana: Super, super. Uh, so before we wrap up, um, let's talk about your book as well, because, um, it's called the Seven Mirrors. Um, would you like to, like, give an idea? What what is it about? Why the name Seven Mirrors? What's what's the, you know, idea behind it?

00:20:21 Dylan Bost: So the core idea is pretty simple. Um, when you remember yourself, you change how you move through the world, right? The mirrors in this case are a metaphor. The mirrors will help you notice what's actually happening inside you, so that you can respond instead of reacting, and essentially walk from that presence. Walk from your own center. Um, you know, I it's it's essentially it's a, um, a personal growth book with actual this is what you can do all based on my experiences. So it's, you know, it's probably thirty, forty percent memoir. Um, but, you know, people don't know me, and so who really cares? But the reality is, what I found, it's very it's my approach was looking and saying, look, here are the things that have happened in my life. Um, you know, here are the huge things and here are the really little things. But in reality, um, I've gained an awareness about these failures. I've gained an awareness about how I've handled situations in the past and even today. Um, and, and through these tools, I'm able to reset those things. I'm in. The net advantage to that, to me, is regulating my nervous system, um, bringing more joy to my life. And so it very simply kind of, um, you know, there's there's many experiences from, um, from work experience in my past business, um, to how I, you know, really, you know, transmuted the, the failures and the experiences into a more healthy company, more healthy culture in my new company. Um, there's experiences with my family. I've got three children, two girls and a boy. They're in their twenties and teens, um, to, you know, experiences with my wife, to us moving out of the United States and into Costa Rica and Mexico and all of the things that transpired in there to even plant medicine and some, um, indigenous medicines. Um, but essentially what I've done is, is, is I've taken those experiences and really found through a lot of deep investigation. How did I you know, a lot of people ask me, well, how when you, for instance, had to declare bankruptcy after your first company and, and you had an alcohol problem, how did you rebound from that? You know, what was the thing? And, and questions like that kind of became core and integral to this because it, it was a way for me to really explain that as well as do even more investigation to find out, because I recognize there there's a lot of pain and suffering in the world. There are a lot of people who are experiencing burnout. And and for me, it was a way to hopefully relate, um, and, and explain, hey, look, there's a different way. And actually we all have the ability to do this. Um, and a lot of ways it's very simple. It takes work. But, you know, you don't need long courses and you don't need, um, you know, ten thousand therapies. It it involves some. Really. You know, what I learned is at the end of the day and listen, I've had all the things. I've had lots of talk therapy. I've had all kinds of modalities of and but in reality, those things, what I've learned and they're super important, right? I mean, I think finding those tools that work for you, but in reality, it came down to I had to make some decisions and stick to them. Right? I had to put into place practices and stick to them. Um, I look at it like this. If you want to have a different body, what does that take? Well, it takes evaluating your eating and it takes going to the gym on a regular basis as a practice, not just for, you know, two or three weeks or a month or six months if you want that. It takes a dedication to it. But in reality, you can do it right. We see people do it all the time.

00:24:14 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:24:15 Speaker 4: And, uh.

00:24:17 Sana: I mean, I'm wondering like, uh, how how long, uh, I mean, have you completed it or. I mean, how long did it take for It's it's so many years of journey in there and experiences and I mean, yeah, it must be a I'm almost.

00:24:34 Dylan Bost: Yeah. I'm almost done. Um, I just celebrated. In fact, I just started with Substack and celebrated a year of writing, um, somewhere between, I guess, a thousand and thirteen hundred hours. And, uh, I am probably by the end of next week, I'll have things ready. I've talked to a couple publishers, and so I've got to get them the finished manuscript next week once it's done. And then and then we'll move from there. Um, but I'm really super excited about it.

00:25:04 Sana: That's really great. Really great. Congratulations for that. And it's I mean, I have had conversations with people literally say that, you know, writing is such a healing, uh, kind of it's such a beautiful channel of healing. And it's it's therapeutic. And it's it's also one way of, you know, meditation, as you mentioned in the beginning, there can be different ways of meditating. So yeah.

00:25:26 Dylan Bost: Yeah, yeah. You know, writing for me was and still is. It's it's an amazing process. You know, I have off and on journaled for years, but not with a dedicated approach. And now I realize the real power of that when you. So as an example, when you know, you, you know, it's kind of three steps, right. When you think when for me when I would think about a situation and essentially, yeah, yeah, yeah, that happened. And this is how I'm going to, you know, this is how I'm going to heal from that specific thing or process it even. Right. That's one level. And then and then obviously speaking to people is super powerful. And and so there are different aspects of the book where I started to write, and I realized halfway through I was like the profoundness of writing and really investigating because, you know, I wrote for me. Um, and, and the reality is I didn't really assume who was reading it. But as I was writing the, you know, I found areas where I wasn't necessarily honest right off the bat and, and I had to really dig into it and say, okay, that yes, that's what happened. But, you know, that was ten years ago. What what really happened? How did I really feel about that situation? Um, what was the outcome of that? How am I better now? And, you know, and it was a really interesting thing. So it is a huge, um, it's been very eye opening to me, um, as I've really walked through that, um, that garden of of words. It's it's an amazing, amazing experience.

00:27:03 Speaker 4: Absolutely, absolutely. That's not.

00:27:06 Sana: No doubt. No doubt. Dylan. So, um, so, yeah, I mean, uh, I'm, I'm very sure listeners will be so, so much interested and looking forward to your upcoming book, The Seven Mirror. So if they would like to connect with you and would also like to get a hold of the of your book. What would be the best way?

00:27:24 Dylan Bost: Yeah. Um, best way for the book is just go to Dylan Clayton com and you'll see there's a link for the book, and you can just give me your email address and I'll send the first chapter, um, probably in a couple of weeks. Um, and, and then that'll also put them on the sign up list to get notification when the book is released. Um, and then for anyone interested in sunny HQ, um, you simply go to sunny HQ and we'd love to help. And if you go to sunny HQ podcast, um, if you've got some specific issue with your website, we've got a great free download there for you to. It'll help you walk through. It's a short like thirty minute, um, exercise where you can walk through and helps. It really will help people with websites figure out, you know, what is the next step and how can I, you know, how can I fix things like just, um, issues with the site, um, speed issues and a lot of different things. So those are that's where I would direct people.

00:28:26 Sana: Of course, of course. And listeners, we all know I'm gonna have all the links mentioned in the show notes, so find them attached along with this episode on whichever platform you're listening to your Mindful Living podcast. And, uh, you know what, listeners, this is, this has been such a such a unique conversation because I believe that burnout is really just fatigue often bleed. You know, it's it's grief from living too long at a distance from yourself. So if something in today's conversation, listeners, it hit a nerve with you, I want to offer this. You don't have to immediately fix your whole life today. But but you can tell the truth about what's been costing you. And maybe mindfulness for you too isn't a tool to become more productive. Maybe it's the bridge. Back to presence, back to choice, back to the person underneath all that performance. So Dylan, thank you so much. Because, um, this was a really, really honest and candid, um, conversation, um, diving deep into your story, into your journey, not only the business part here, but coal as a human. So thank you so much for sharing that.

00:29:51 Dylan Bost: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on.

00:29:54 Sana: And to all my listeners, if this episode felt like a mirror for you, don't rush past it. Sit with it gently. Take one honest pause today, one breath that belongs to you. Until next time. This is Sana and you have been listening to the Mindful Living. I'll be back soon with another beautiful episode. Thank you.