Katie Flamman 00:00:00:

Hello and welcome to storytelling for business, the podcast that helps you build better relationships with your customers by telling stories they'll queue up to hear. I'm Katie Flamman. I'm a voiceover artist specialising in corporate storytelling. I've worked with clients like American Express, UNEscO and Pfizer, helping them share brand stories and business developments. But what's the difference between marketing and storytelling? Can sharing stories really create leads for your business and build relationships with your clients? And what even is a story anyway? This podcast has all the answers, plus handy takeaways to turn you into a storytelling superstar. So let's crack on.

Today's guest is a visual storyteller. Roxy van der Post runs Mysotis film and photography and loves telling stories through the medium of documentary and corporate films. I heard Roxy give a talk about brand storytelling at a business expo in her hometown of Brighton last year. It was jam packed with brilliant insights and amazing tips about storytelling for business. And it was a no brainer to invite her onto the podcast.

So lucky listener, here she is.

Katie Flamman 00:01:18:

Roxy van der Post, welcome to the storytelling for Business podcast.

Roxy van der Post 00:01:22:

Thank you. What an introduction. I'm very flattered. Thank you.

Katie Flamman 00:01:27:

It's brilliant to have you. No need for flattery. It's all true. Well, okay, we've got loads to get through and we've already said, oh no, how are we going to do this in 20 minutes? So let's start with your story,

Did you always know you were destined to work in visuals and become a photographer and a filmmaker, or did it creep up on you?

Roxy van der Post 00:01:47:

I mean, I fell in love with photography when I was about eleven years old and my father gave me one of his old cameras. But I never ever thought that it was going to be my profession. I was very anxious and insecure. Did not think that I would be able to run my own business or build my own career. So it was a dream I didn't even dare to dream, if that makes sense. So I actually thought I would be a teacher until that dream kind of fell apart when I completely failed a maths test when I was about twelve years old. I won't go into the details, but it was a crucial moment in my life.

And later actually, I realised I don't really like working with children that much. So the whole teacher thing didn't work out. But I gravitated towards a more creative career when I was in high school. So I ended up studying media and culture at the University of Amsterdam. And that's where I did loads of different forms of art. And it's where I found that filmmaking is actually my preferred medium of storytelling. So I had a lot of theoretical knowledge, but I didn't really have many practical skills, and that's why I moved to England. So I first moved here eleven years ago to Bradford, up in West Yorkshire, and that's where I did an MA in digital filmmaking.

So, yeah, that's kind of how I rolled into or eventually chose the path of filmmaking. But it did stem from my love for photography initially, which is why I now still do both.

Katie Flamman 00:03:20:

Let's go back to your childhood, and you talked in the talk, I heard about rewriting your own inner story, and when you just started speaking, you said you never dreamed that you could be doing this career, and now you are doing it. So what kind of changed to make you think, actually, I could make a living out of doing this? I don't have to be a maths teacher.

Roxy van der Post 00:03:46:

No, absolutely not. That's my worst nightmare. So I started my career in film exhibition as a marketing manager, and that was really great fun. Absolutely loved working in the world of film. But after a few years, I missed creating my own work, and that's where I transitioned into a job where I was a visual content creator for a local college. And that really helped me to produce more of my own work, to meet remarkable people who had no idea how special they actually were. They were just students, but they were all doing the most amazing work outside of school, and they were really engaged at school. They were really fighting for their education, and I admired that very much.

So I got to tell some amazing stories and realised that actually, the skills I had, I could do them as a job, and I could also use them to try and make my world, my community, a slightly better place.

Katie Flamman 00:04:47:

Oh, can you give me some examples or an example of something that really stands out from that time?

Roxy van der Post 00:04:52:

Yes. There was one girl who was a carer at home for one of her parents, and she had a lot of siblings, and so she was also working a job to help and contribute towards paying rent or mortgage and to help feed her family. And besides all of that and going to college, she was also playing cricket and really, really good at it. And she actually got selected for the national team in her age range.

Katie Flamman 00:05:24:

Wow.

Roxy van der Post 00:05:25:

And travelled all around the world, and I had no idea how on earth she managed to do all of that. And when you spoke to her, she was just talking about that as if it was so normal, because for her, it was normal. It was her every day. And I think that's when I realised that because we live our lives every single day. We don't actually see the things that make us remarkable because we just go through it.

Katie Flamman 00:05:49:

That is such a good point.

Roxy van der Post 00:05:50:

Yeah.

Katie Flamman 00:05:51:

Everybody is individual. And even if you're a business doing the same as ten other businesses or 100 other businesses, what makes you unique and what makes your story special is who you are, isn't it?

Roxy van der Post 00:06:04:

Absolutely. It's your perspective on the world, because nobody has lived exactly the same life that you have. Even if you might have a twin, there are still differences between what you enjoy and what you like and the things you choose to do in your life. No one lives exactly your life. So it's your perspective that makes you unique, and that's what I like bringing out in people.

Katie Flamman 00:06:28:

And how important is that? If you're trying to tell stories to promote your business and what you do.

Roxy van der Post 00:06:33:

Very important, because we all want to stand out in a way, even though that sounds very scary, some people really don't want to stand out. But if no one knows what you do, or you're just the world's best kept secret, and then it's unlikely your business is going to be a success, people need to know that you are there. So I love working with people and kind of utilising the photography and the videos as a mirror, almost, to hold up to them and to reflect back at them. Like, look at how amazing you are and look at all this beautiful, brilliant work that you're doing. That is you. And often when I show people the first cut of their video or their set of photographs, they need a few days to even be like, oh, wait, that's me. Because I see them differently, or I show them, reflect them back in a different light than how they see themselves.

Katie Flamman 00:07:26:

That's a real gift, isn't it?

Roxy van der Post 00:07:28:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's one of my favourite parts of my job.

Katie Flamman 00:07:31:

Yeah, a lot of people really hate having their photo taken, don't they?

Roxy van der Post 00:07:36:

Yes. So did I. I have learned.

Katie Flamman 00:07:40:

Really? That's interesting.

Roxy van der Post 00:07:42:

Over the years, I've learned to be more comfortable in front of the camera, but it's still a challenge sometimes. And it depends on how you feel that day. And I definitely have tips and tricks. Like, I have power outfits that I wear when I want to feel extra confident, that helps. Putting on certain music, doing silly power poses, and just having a complete fit of laughter helps to kind of get rid of those nerves. And then you can build up a relationship with whoever's photographing you, and then it makes it slightly easier.

Katie Flamman 00:08:15:

That's a really good piece of advice, actually. Do what you need to do to feel comfortable and feel relaxed, because I guess if you're working with a photographer or a videographer, if you're super nervous and super stiff and stuff, you're not going to be at your best, are you?

Roxy van der Post 00:08:34:

No. Which is why I like working with these, with clothing and music and just having fun. And I love it when people feed back to me afterward that their time on set with me was way more fun than they ever thought it could be. That's such a huge compliment to me, because, yeah, I used to hate being in front of the camera. There was a reason I was behind the camera. I was so anxious and shy all the time. But I actually thought I had quite a good, from that sort of, like, the corner of my world.

I had quite a nice view on the rest of the world, but that's why I liked being behind the camera and not in front of. So I'm still continuing to push myself to do that a bit more, be in front of the camera. But it helps for me as well, to put myself in the shoes of my clients and the people that I work with so that I know what it's like to be them. And then when I know what support I need when I'm in front of the camera, allows me to then support them better when they're in front of the camera, because I still remember what that's like because I might have done a photoshoot, like last week or last month or something.

Katie Flamman 00:09:37:

You feel that feeling?

Roxy van der Post 00:09:38:

Exactly.

Katie Flamman 00:09:39:

So, Roxy, I've heard you talk about having to rewrite your own inner story. And I think sometimes we have a narrative that we tell ourselves or that we think we're stuck with, and sometimes that can really impact on what we choose to do. And things seem to be going really well for you. When you were telling those stories in the college and then did something happen to derail that, or did you have a setback?

Roxy van der Post 00:10:10:

Yes, I absolutely did. I mean, when the pandemic hit, a lot changed, obviously, and I was stuck at home with the best part of my job being taken away. I couldn't take photographs and interview these wonderful students anymore. I didn't see them anymore. I had no idea what was going on because we were all stuck at home. So probably nothing really was going on besides just the general freak out around the pandemic. I actually started getting panic attacks on a pretty daily basis. My body was just shouting at me that what I was doing now and where this was going was not the right path for me anymore with the changes that had happened around me.

And so I got signed off by the doctor, just sat on the sofa and watched Disney films and behind the scenes documentaries for weeks on end, and actually never went back to that corporate job. I decided I would give freelancing a try because I'd felt so empowered by what I'd learned in that job and valued the skills that I had in a completely different way. And I really wanted to broaden that and make a bigger impact. So I decided I would go freelance and I read books and I hired a graphic designer friend to make brand guidelines and all of that stuff. Then I moved to Birmingham with my partner at the time, tried to start in a brand new city, still during a global pandemic as a freelancer, safe to say that did not work at all. In six months time I had one job, and six months later we actually moved again, this time to Brighton, still sort of in the pandemic. But Brighton turned out to be the right place for me to be and for my business to flourish. So it was basically my third attempt at trying to build my business, and the final one at that, because I just knew that we couldn't live on one salary as two people for too long anymore.

Katie Flamman 00:12:07:

What were you telling yourself at that time?

Roxy van der Post 00:12:10:

Well, that freelancing was not building a business, so it was less scary to use the word freelancing. So I'll just take like a contract, like a short term contract, and then I'll still be someone else's employee and I don't have to worry about tax and all that stuff. I was so scared of maths because of this test that I failed when I was twelve. I still had so many hang ups about just maths, and I didn't think I was confident enough to sell my services or my skills. I didn't think I had the financial know-how to run a business. So I called myself just a freelancer. As if freelancing isn't a valid thing in itself. And it was actually a confidence coach that kind of pulled me up on that.

And she said, I've heard you say that like three times in the last five minutes. That's done. You are never saying that about yourself again because you're making yourself small. And she was so direct and I loved that because that's a very European thing, I guess. And yeah, it just made me realise I had a lot of limiting beliefs. I was telling myself all kinds of horrible things that weren't actually true, but I wasn't challenging myself on them. I was taking those thoughts as if they were true. And I worked with this confidence coach because I thought that's what I lacked, confidence, which wasn't actually true.

Thanks to a stint in musical theatre when I was a teenager. I knew how to sort of put on this cloak of confidence, even if I didn't have it. I could fake it till I made it, that kind of thing. But what I actually learned from this coach was that I had to confront my inner saboteur by rewriting my limiting beliefs. And it was really, really hard work to do. But I was in a very safe and supportive space with a bunch of other women of all different ages and in all different stages of life and business. But we all had this thing in common where we were just putting ourselves down all the time. And I uncovered all kinds of experiences that were at the core of these limiting beliefs that I hadn't actually properly processed yet.

So I went back to therapy and did CBT, and that worked miracles for me. I also didn't know at the time that I'm autistic, and looking back, that makes so much sense, but I didn't know that at the time. So I was really struggling with that as well. But unknowingly, I guess, I experimented with like, self portraiture, and I did a lot of journaling and walking and listening to other people's stories. Actually loads of podcasts, particularly podcasts around anxiety and starting a business. That really helped me to see I was not the only one going through all of these doubts. So this whole experience helped me to grow as a human being and as a business founder. And then sharing that process of how powerful rewriting my own inner stories was with other people actually led me to get booked as a public speaker.

And now it's something that I talk about very regularly, and I love it because it's a way for me to really quite deeply connect with people and tell them they're not alone in this and just continue to make authentic relationships with people and encourage them to share their story too, even if it's not always an uplifting or positive one all the time. There's so much we can learn from each other.

Brilliant. Amazing. It sounds like what you got from that experience of other people looking at you and saying, no, stop putting yourself down. This is how brilliant you are. I think that might be what you bring to your clients when they, like you said, when you show them the first cut of their film, or you show them the photos and say, look at how brilliant you are.

It's a really good point, actually. Yeah, I love being a cheerleader for other people and just encouraging them to keep going on this path that they forged for themselves, because I just think it's the most amazing thing to do. Oh, thank you for that insight. That's wonderful.

Katie Flamman 00:16:14:

So you talked about what makes you unique, your perspective, and does that come under your origin story? In your talk, you gave, you talked about origin stories and impact stories. So I think we've kind of touched on origin stories, have we? But maybe you can explain a bit more.

Roxy van der Post 00:16:33:

Yeah, of course. So, within the framework that I use, which was originated by a company called Muse storytelling, and if you like storytelling as much as I do, they're very much worth checking out. They're different story types, but the main two for businesses are the origin story and the impact story. So your origin story is like the all rounder, and you share where you come from and where you're going. And through that story, you convey snippets of your personality and your values and your mission. Just little sprinkles on top, just enough to get people interested. And an impact story is like a case study, but sort of the 2.0 version of it, where you go into the proper journey that your client has been on. So it's with all the ups and the downs, very important to give people an insight into the specific problem that your customer was facing and the specific solution that you were there to offer and how you've helped them through.

Katie Flamman 00:17:34:

Okay, so first of all, going back to origin story. So if it's lots of little bits and pieces that make you, you, could you do that story, share that story, like across six months worth of social media posts, for instance? Or are you talking about one film, one piece of content that puts lots of different elements of you into it? Or could it be either?

Roxy van der Post 00:18:01:

Could be either, I guess I'm all for repurposing content, and I tend to start with a story workshop with people, so that we go into the discovery of their story, really unpacking it, and then sort of building it back together in a narrative structure that makes sense for the purpose of that particular story. So I think that's why it's important to start with purpose. Not necessarily your purpose, but the purpose of the story.

Katie Flamman 00:18:29:

What's the point of doing this, exactly?

Roxy van der Post 00:18:31:

Why are you sharing this particular story at this particular time with this particular audience? And when you have that figured out, you can then make a better selection of what parts of your story to include and which bits to leave out, because people are very inclined, particularly if you've had a longer career, they're just inclined to share everything that's ever happened. And I get that. I love to do that, too. I love to share about my story, but that's not going to keep people engaged and focused, and it's likely to muddle the message that you're trying to convey.

Katie Flamman 00:19:07:

So that getting really clear on that purpose, why are we doing this? What we're trying to achieve and who are we talking to?

Roxy van der Post 00:19:12:

Exactly. And then you can utilise the story that you build for that audience and then maybe look at your social media and think, what can I take from this that my social media audience, which is generally a little broader, what can they take away from that? Or what section can I take that's going to really bring out a specific point I'm trying to make?

Katie Flamman 00:19:34:

So that was origin stories. So impact stories sounds a bit more like a kind of a testimonial almost type of thing

Roxy van der Post 00:19:44:

Yes, but more of a journey, because someone can say, Katie was great to work with. Okay, but what does that mean? Like, what is great? What work did you actually do? Like, there's more questions than answers from that testimonial. So I like to make it a story of course.

Katie Flamman 00:20:02:

You talked about ups and downs. Yeah. So why are the downs so important?

Roxy van der Post 00:20:06:

Because no one's life is all up. We don't only experience great things. We're all humans. We all make mistakes. We run into challenges. Especially when you're a business owner, there's a lot of challenges that we come up in, well, in any job, really. And I think sharing those moments are going to make other people relate to you.

It's what's going to establish an emotional connection with your audience because they won't be able to relate to someone who seems like they're only successful all day, every day, all the time. This whole, like, I woke up like, this is very nice, but we put time into looking the way we look and building our business and doing our job, and it doesn't always go that smoothly. So I think it's very important to build a more genuine connection with people by also sharing the moments that weren't great.

Katie Flamman 00:21:01:

Being honest.

Roxy van der Post 00:21:01:

Yes, exactly. Being honest. And you don't have to go. It's totally up to you as to how much detail you go into. You definitely don't want to share or I would highly discourage people sharing things that they're not comfortable with sharing in public. It's still your story. So it's totally up to you what you share and what you don't. But we've all mistakenly sent an email.

That can be a little thing that kind of sets you off on the wrong foot for your day or something, but it's relatable. So just talk about, oh, I made a mistake this morning. I felt really rubbish about it, but here's how I picked myself up, and now we're good. That's much more relatable than just pretending like you never make mistakes.

Katie Flamman 00:21:41:

Yeah, very interesting. Okay, so we've got the beginning, the challenge of the job, and we've got the ups and downs in the middle and stuff. And then presumably everybody wants a happy ending. Do they?

Roxy van der Post 00:21:54:

Yes, I guess so. You want at least some sort of resolution. God, the pressure is on now. So I work with a three act structure, but within each of those acts, you have further structures, because I like a good process and a clear structure. So you've got beginning, middle, and end like you just said. The beginning, I generally open a story with a hook. So the hook is the thing that's going to draw people's attention to your story.

It's like the headline in the newspaper. So this can be a fun fact about you or an anecdote. That's something fun, a bit quirky, a bit unique. People are very drawn to new things, like, kind of like a new shiny thing, like a magpie. So make sure your hook is like that, and then you share the challenge that you're up against at that particular moment. Something that's relevant to the audience you're speaking to. And then after you've laid out that challenge, which can be a chosen challenge, by the way. This doesn't have to be about misfortune or horrible things happening to you.

You can choose to climb Mount Everest. It's quite a challenge, but it's also a choice. So it can be something like that or starting a business. Hopefully for most people, a choice they make because they want to do it. And then after the challenge, you go into the initiation, and that's the very first step of action that you take in order to try and overcome that challenge. And those three things combined, the hook, the challenge, and the initiation, they form the beginning or the opening act of your story.

Katie Flamman 00:23:31:

Love this.

Roxy van der Post 00:23:34:

The middle is the second act, which we just talked about. It's the ups and downs of your journey, and that's your story. So it's not up to me or anybody else to tell you what you should include and what you should leave out. But what I tell people is that your origin story or impact story, but generally, origin story is where people start, it is, like I said, the start of your relationship with your audience. It's not the end. So it's just about sparking an interest in your business and in you as the founder and a way for people to get curious and to get them to ask you questions and get in touch with you. So it's just about building that intrigue so you don't have to include everything. Just figure out the purpose like we just talked about, and then that will allow you to choose the most relevant plot points for your story.

Katie Flamman 00:24:27:

Keep them wanting more. Right. Give them a reason to get in touch with you.

Roxy van der Post 00:24:30:

Exactly. That's exactly it. So beginning, middle, and then the ending. Act three is where you want a resolution. So an emotionally satisfying resolution about the lessons that you've learned while tackling this challenge. So you want to relate your resolution back to the challenge, and then it's not about whether you actually won or lost or whether you overcame the challenge or you didn't. It's purely about the lessons that you learned and how it made you feel, because people don't really care about the winning or the losing. Like, in the moment, it feels great to win, obviously, but once you're sharing that story with other people again, they can relate to you much more if you're just honest about, you know, what, it didn't work.

But here's what I learned, and then I tried again. There's so many people with businesses that are not their first businesses. Like, you might have three or four before you figure out how you like to do business and what's actually a successful business model. And it's totally okay to talk about those things. We don't have to pretend that we just do everything right at the first try. I know I am not really a person like that. And then the very, very final part is called a jab or a call to action I guess it's called for most people.

And when you're like me, you might want to give people, like, 100 pieces of advice and like, oh, you should do this and research that and try this and speak to that person. But don't give your audience choice paralysis. Just give them one clear instruction of what you'd like them to do. And it can be really small, a bigger thing. Like, maybe you want them to get in touch with you. That's quite, like, a threshold for people to get over, but maybe you just want them to have a think about their own story and leave it at that. It's not always about the great, like, changing the world plan sometimes you just need to plant the seed first. So pick one call to action that's, again, relevant to the audience you're speaking to at that time.

That's relevant to the story that you're sharing at that time. Give them one piece of advice or a takeaway.

Katie Flamman 00:26:36:

One thing, and that presumably needs to have been thought about right at the beginning when you're coming up with your why am I doing this?

Roxy van der Post 00:26:44:

Exactly. So it comes back to figuring out the purpose of your story again at the beginning. Think about how do I want my audience to feel while they're listening to my story or while they're reading my story? And then how do I want them to act when the story is done? What do I want them to do? What change do I want people to make? Because I think ultimately, that's why we share stories. It's about inspiring people into action. It's about making a small change.

Katie Flamman 00:27:12:

I was going to ask you, why is storytelling important for business? Roxy, you just answered that all by yourself. Excellent mind reading. Well done. Well done. Well, do you know what? I knew the time was going to go in a flash, and it has. My last question, and I always ask people this at the end, is, what about your story? Where's your story going to go in the next five years or so? Any ideas?

Roxy van der Post 00:27:34:

That's such a tough question, because even just in the last year, my story has changed in ways I could have never, ever imagined. And some things have happened that I really didn't want to happen but have still turned out to be for the best. And other things I've just worked really hard for, and they finally happened, and that's then also been amazing. So five years is actually very long for me to plan ahead, if that makes sense.

Katie Flamman 00:28:06:

Five months, five weeks, five minutes. Answer as best you possibly can.

Roxy van der Post 00:28:14:

Where my story is going to go. I mean, I would love to hire some more people in my business because I'm currently a solopreneur, but I would love to get to the stage where I can hire more people to do the things that I'm not very good at or don't get a lot of enjoyment from. That would be wonderful. And then I can give other people a job. I think that would be a really rewarding kind of thing to do. Also a lot of responsibility, but that would be amazing. I don't want a big team because it's still, I'm doing this more for me, like in the here and now, than to build a huge legacy. Although I guess they kind of go hand in hand.

And then another chapter I would love to add to my story is to have a documentary feature film screened at film festivals. Do a Q&A tour across the UK or the world. Let's make it the world. Let's do the Q&A tour for a documentary feature film that I will have made.

Katie Flamman 00:29:12:

Have you got an idea?

Roxy van der Post 00:29:13:

Amazing. I have a few ideas and one thing is potentially in the works that would be very exciting.

Katie Flamman 00:29:23:

Amazing. Okay, well, we're all going to watch this space. So, Roxy, in the show notes, we will put your website and your contact details. So if people want to get in touch and work with you and figure out what their story is and how you can help them to bring it to life, please, please do that. Because take it from me, this lady knows what she's talking about.

Roxy van der Post 00:29:41:

It's my favourite thing to do in the whole world. So yes, I would love to hear from people.

Katie Flamman 00:29:46:

Awesome. Well, Roxy van der Post, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Roxy van der Post 00:29:50:

Thank you very much for having me..

Katie Flamman 00:29:53:

Wowzers! Wasn't Roxy brilliant? Well, I don't know about you, but I learnt masses from this episode. Here we go.

Brace yourself.

Today's key takeaways are one, if you hate having your photo taken or being on video, train yourself to get comfortable with it. Boost your confidence with power poses. Choose clothes or music that make you feel great before getting in front of the camera. Two, nobody else has lived exactly the same life as you. Your perspective is what makes you and your story unique. Not only what happened, but how you share it. Three, whether you find it cringey or not, you have to promote yourself and tell that story. Like Roxy said, there's no point being the world's best kept secret.

Working with a great videographer or photographer can help to reflect who you are and the incredible work you do. Four, an origin story is where you've come from and where you're going. It reveals snippets of your personality, your values and your mission enough to get people interested in you. Five, an impact story is a case study. The journey your client has been on, the problems they faced and the solutions you offered. Still with me? Good. Six, Roxy's three act story structure is act one, the hook, the Challenge and Initiation, act two, the middle, which sparks an interest and leaves them wanting more. And act three, the resolution, which shares the lessons you learned and ends with a call to action, or what Roxy calls a jab.

Seven, be careful with that call to action. Ask your viewer to do just one thing that's appropriate for them and is relevant to the story you just shared. Don't give them loads of instructions or they'll get what Roxy calls choice paralysis and they won't do anything at all.

Seven top takeaways flipping heck. I need a lie down.

But first, in our next episode.

Jenny Christopherson 00:32:06:

He needed some help one day to go out and examine a giraffe who had a sore eye, which is quite a long way up. So yes, you try and do everything you can with them still standing up, because sedating giraffes isn't very clever. They've got very unique blood pressure, having such long necks and having to pump their blood all the way up to their brain all the way up there. So Cherry Picker involved

Katie Flamman 00:32:31:

The height of business success vet Jenny Christopherson shares a few eye opening animal stories and tips for keeping every type of business in perfect health. So if you want to know how to do a caesarean on a tortoise, really keep listening.

Episode 13, Family: Animal Magic, is all yours. But for now, a massive thanks to Roxy van der Post for sharing her visual storytelling expertise. If you'd like Roxy's help to present your story to the world, she'd love to hear from you.

Her contact details and the Mysotis film web address are all in the show notes. Now it really is time to go. I'm off to practise my power poses. I'm Katie Flamman and this is storytelling for business. Until next time. Goodbye.