Great.

So this is the get you some productions podcast.

I haven't done this intro in so long, it's.

It's like, foreign to me.

But we are a podcast covering all things related to music production from the first note to the last fan.

So we really like to just cover everything that a musician would care about.

So my favorite examples are gig attire.

These are the random gig attire.

Or tritone substitutions are the.

You know, I like those.

How about modal interchange?

And whether you're allowed to wear shorts on stage.

All good.

I'm saying.

Okay, so I'm saying shorts is a no.

I'm saying shorts is a no.

I mean, if you're in Florida, like, what else are you going to wear?

Hot.

I was reminded of one of my hottest gigs we played.

We played down the park near the Ikea in Red Hook in Brooklyn.

Red Hook, Brooklyn.

And it was like the hottest day of the year.

And I was just.

We played outside with no covering, and it was just so hot.

And we were all just sweating through our clothes.

My guitar was dripping with sweat.

It was awful.

Yeah.

So today I have a guest, and this is kind of a special episode.

So, Cat.

And Cat, I'm going to do a little.

A little intro for you.

I'm just going to read all the stuff that I pulled up about you.

Okay.

It's correct.

At all.

Yeah.

And that's what I was going to say, so.

Because the Internet, especially AI is so.

Oh, I haven't done a search for myself since that came out.

I should try that.

That would be funny.

Look, here we are.

So.

So I would say feel free to dive in if any of this is incorrect, but Cat Reinert is a professor of songwriting at the Berklee College of Music.

You teach stuff like songwriting foundations and lyric writing and the business of songwriting.

I do.

Awesome.

Favorite class.

Cool.

Oh, I like that, too.

You are a vocalist, multi instrumentalist, band leader, producer, author, educator.

That is correct, too.

Great.

This is like fact checking with the person.

I know.

It's kind of fun.

You have five independently produced albums, and you've collaborated with a variety of musicians and songwriters.

They're not listed here.

That is correct.

You have written for Sesame Street.

Yep.

Sick.

Oh, you have books on songwriting, contemporary voice, and music education.

Yes, Well, I have a book on songwriting.

Okay.

There's a book.

And there's a book on how to release music that just came out.

So that's like, literally, like a how to for, like, if you are an independent artist or you're an educator working with independent Artists and.

And, like, don't know how to help them get their music out, or you are an artist that doesn't know how to get their music out in the world.

We break it down for you into, like, really easy, manageable steps.

Like, everything from the creative piece and the mixing and mastering to branding to, like, what is copyright and how do you secure to make sure that you're protected to, like, all the DSPs and, like, how do you actually like.

And what kinds of different ways can you get your music out?

Not only like, through Spotify and the big streaming services, but also things like bandcamp and YouTube and.

And.

And other places.

So there's lots of.

Yeah, it just dropped in November, so that's pretty exciting.

And then I have chapters and books about a bunch of other things, but not, like, full books.

So.

I'm a huge fan of books.

Yeah, me too.

I just like.

And I like physical books.

You can see behind me, I'm like, you know, putting my.

You can't see, but, like, right here going up about four feet is books.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let me just.

Cat.

I'm actually putting you right into the.

Putting you right into Amazon.

Oh, yeah, it'll come up there.

It's a really cool cover.

How to release music.

Yeah, dude.

Okay, so actually, I'll put it.

I'll put a. I'm gonna buy it right this instant.

The Kindle will show up immediately.

I don't know when the.

We don't actually have the book yet.

Like, I don't have a physical copy to show you.

Oh, that's okay.

Okay.

So you know what?

Hang on.

But it does exist.

Like, you can get it.

We just don't.

I just don't have a copy yet because they.

The.

Our author copies haven't arrived.

That's fine.

So actually one.

One cool thing is for me is that I'm an Amazon affiliate.

Oh, and so you can review our book.

I can review this book.

Amazing.

I can review this book.

And.

And I will, but.

And I will put a link immediately.

Well, not immediately.

When the show comes out, I'll put a link in the show, notes that people can buy the book.

But this used to be something we like to do on the show is talk about books.

And I mean, we just want.

We wrote it because they're just like.

It was funny because when we.

When we wrote the book, because we wrote it in 2000 through 2023, I think.

Like, we turned it in in 2024, and at that point there were no other books about, like, how to release music in, in the market.

There were like the business books by like Ari Herstand and Passman's book, like it industry books that kind of COVID all of it and have sections on releasing music, but a broader take.

And then when our book came out, I noticed there were two other books that were put out last year on how to release music, but smaller, more kind of step by little guide books, but not encompassing.

This is pretty substantial.

It's 16 chapters and it covers a lot of ground.

So it's kind of interesting.

And we're really excited because we just.

The reason we wrote it because at the time there just wasn't anything out there for artists who were just looking like, how do I release music?

You could find things online and people were always like, well, why are you writing a book?

Because it changes so much.

And we're like, yes and no.

I mean the platforms in which you release the music onto have changed from tapes to, to CDs to streaming platforms and things.

But the stuff that you need to do to get your music to that point and to market it has not really changed.

Like you still need photos, you still need branding elements, you still need.

And the way that you interact with those things has changed and it will continue to change.

But there's so many things that we felt were like static about making and putting out music.

Just giving yourself permission to do it in the first place, like that's huge, you know, and like how do you organize a project and how do you, you know, design, how do you get from like a demo to like a recording and like what are all these different steps and how can you do them now in a home studio versus like a regular, like a big studio kind of a thing?

What's your budget?

So yeah, we just wanted to like share the information and get it to as many people as we could because we both, Sarah, my co author and I are educators and artists.

And this is stuff that we've just learned putting out music ourselves and you know, trying to like share it with like our students.

But also we have a lot of colleagues who are often asking like, well, how do you release music with minors?

Like if they're teaching middle school or kids.

And you know, so we have a whole chapter on that and it's just like a lot of really information that you don't find in like a lot of other places.

So yeah, it's, it's interesting.

I, yeah, you're right.

I.

So I'm releasing music.

That's what you're helping me with.

Today.

Yeah.

And there isn't really.

You know, it's like, the first time you release a song, you're like, holy cow.

Like, all this stuff you have to do, even if you have, like, I use cd, baby.

Yeah.

They lay a lot of it out for you.

Yeah.

But they're still, like, you still have.

To know, like, what is an IRCC ISRC code?

And, like, you're like, they'll give it to you, but you can also go get your own.

And, like, and then they'll ask for the ISRW code.

And, like, do you know where that is?

Do you know where to get that?

What's an.

What's your IPI number?

You know, and people listening might be like, what is she talking about?

And I'm like, well, those are things that you get from your pro.

And you're like, oh, my God, another acronym.

Yeah, ASCAP bmi.

Like, what are these?

Like, there's so much jargon that, like, that you just.

And if you don't do these things, you're basically missing out on potential income.

Right.

Like, in the pennies that it will become.

But, like, at the same time, if it did blow up or something happened to it, like, if you don't have these things set up, you can't collect any money, you know, or we break down, like, how much it costs to, like.

I mean, it.

You have to get, like, 500,000 streams, you know, consecutively, to, like, generate $2,000 a month off of your music, which is.

And.

And it's just like.

So it's also a reality check for especially younger, you know, people who putting out music, thinking, oh, well, I'm gonna put it out, and, like, I'll make my income off of streaming.

And I'm like, yes, I. I have former students that are doing that, but they're.

They're netting, like, millions of streams, like, on the regular.

And they are making money from those things because there's.

They're at such a, like, threshold number that, like, you can.

It is possible for an independent artist to make that, but you have to have, like, enough people listening to your music to do that.

And that takes a whole set of other, like, things that you have to, like, make happening, you know, whether it's going viral once a week or, like, TikTok or, like, you have to have enough, like, eyes on you to generate that amount of people listening to you.

And that might not be everybody's goal, you know, so it's just, like.

It's breaking down, like, what this stuff actually looks like.

And where to find everything.

And there are links and with.

With Oxford, there's also like, when you buy the book, there's a companion site like online where we have like PDFs and resources that people can download and templates for like print, project management and things like that.

So there's like an interactive portion to the book too.

So you can go and like get resources if you're trying to like release stuff and you're not sure where to start, so.

Nice.

That's awesome.

I.

It is, it's cool.

I. I sort of wish that there was something.

There's so much that goes into being an independent musician.

Yeah.

And I kind of wish there was like a place to go where it was just like, you know, a step by step.

Here's all the things.

Here's exactly what you need to do, here's why it's important.

It's very fragmented right now and it's hard to get the advice you need.

Yeah.

As an independent musician, you know, I don't make my money doing independent music, but it's still like something that I focus on pretty heavily in my life.

But I don't make any money doing it.

I make like, you know, $20 a year or something.

Yeah.

Through streams and people.

But here's the thing.

$20 in streams is insane.

Like the fact that I even make that, like people like.

Oh, that's nothing.

Like, do you understand, like how many friggin streams I have to get so many to make 20 bucks?

I know.

It's a lot more than you think.

You know, it is.

And when I teach business of songwriting, we talk about that and like other ways to monetize things like newsletters.

And like if you have a thousand people on your newsletter, like generally 10 converts.

If those hundred people go and buy your album on Bandcamp for $10, you just made lots more money than you're ever gonna make, you know, on streaming.

For that number of people listening to it or buying it, like a hundred streams is you're not gonna make anything.

Like you'll make 0.00010 cents or something like that.

Whatever the math is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As an independent musician, you need to be pretty creative and entrepreneurial.

Yeah.

And you need to have other ideas too, because the music itself, sadly at least the.

The like.

I don't know what to call it.

But like the packaged piece of the music, like putting it out there on streaming platforms is not going to do it.

No.

You need to have other.

No, and it's a.

It's A hard pill to swallow as an artist because that's what you, that's what you want.

You.

Like, I have this music and I put all my soul and heart into it.

And like, it's always a hard lesson for the students to sit through when I'm like, listen.

People don't care about your music.

They care about you, and you have to.

And it's not that they don't care about your music, but they need to care about you and something else to go and check out your music and then they'll be a fan, you know, but you have to figure out how to convert whatever you do creatively and whatever you are as a person into them.

Going to check you out.

And you have to create this world for them.

And for some students, that's a really hard pill to swallow because they're like, well, they should just like my music.

And I'm like, but, like, do you like.

And they're like, but I just like the music.

I'm like, yeah, because you're a musician.

Like, and at Berkeley, because it's all musicians all the time that they're surrounded by.

They don't, they're not always thinking.

Like, I'm like, think about your mom.

Yeah.

Why?

Or your dad or your brother or your sister who are not musicians.

Like, why do they like the people they like?

Oh, because they did this and they did this and they did.

I'm like, right?

And like, that's how 95% of the world is interacting.

We are a teeny tiny.

But it doesn't feel like that when we're all together.

So, yeah, it's, it's.

But it's good, you know, Like, I'd rather have them learn it there than 10 years out in the music world and they're frustrated and I'm like, okay, well, like, just keep going.

You got this.

You know, Berkeley is a good, Is a good place for those people to be.

It is with teachers like you.

And then the idea that it's become so popular since the Passman book.

Yeah.

So I don't know when that was.

It was like the 70s or something.

It's been around.

I mean, it's what, like 10, 12 editions at this point?

Yeah, yeah.

So.

But I think it's like now people have realized and, you know, so the, the, the few that end up with.

Have the privilege of going to school for it can have a.

Certainly have a leg up.

I do think I sort of.

I came up with this quote that because I, this is how I feel the hardest One of the hardest things about being an artist is telling people you're an artist, you know, or calling yourself an artist.

Yeah, it's really hard.

But I think that people who have that.

Who have trouble.

And I'm.

I'm a unique person because I. I belong in front of a screen like this for some because temperamentally I feel comfortable in front of a screen and telling my story.

And I'm okay with, you know, like, the.

The mistakes and the warts and all that.

I feel like, yeah, I don't know why, but I'm just temperamentally different from a lot of people.

But songwriters as artists should embrace it because, you know, whatever made you want to express yourself in the first place is what makes you special.

And so your music tells the story, but also it's a beautiful thing to be able to tell your story not just through the music, but to speak about the music.

And that's what we're going to do today.

And that's.

I actually have a hard time with it.

But like I said before, I'm.

I have you to help me.

And I'm also okay.

I'm also totally okay looking like an idiot in front of, you know, people.

Whatever.

The 50 people who will watch this.

Let me just finish a couple more items.

Yeah.

Because you are the co.

Founder of songwriting for music educators.

Yep, that's correct.

Is there an.

Is there a website for that?

There is.

It's songwriting for me dot com.

Great.

Which wasn't taken, weirdly.

Which wasn't what?

Which wasn't taken.

Yeah.

When we went to look for it, I was like, I wonder.

Songwriting for me.

Because it's both songwriting for you.

Like, if you're an educator, it's for you, but it's also for music educators who are wanting to work with students.

So it's kind of a both and like, double entendre thing.

You should co opt the Taylor Swift song.

Me?

No.

No.

So you were the president of the association association for Popular Music Education.

Yep, I was.

You have a doctorate in music education?

I do.

I'm just.

We're.

What is it?

What are the kids.

Correct.

I'm giving you your flowers.

Sweet.

So to speak.

There's stuff contempted.

Direct Contempted.

Directed contemporary voice programs, higher ed before returning to New York City and music.

Yeah, I was the director.

Were you somewhere else?

Yeah, I was at the University of Miami.

So I was there as the contemporary voice director for two years.

Okay, that's awesome.

And now.

Okay, so.

And then it just says that you.

You.

You split your Time between Boston and New York.

But I do, you know, Berkeley's in Boston.

It's not in New York, which is a bummer.

It's a bummer.

They should have a.

You know, they should have a borough.

I mean, they do, but it's only for master's students campus or something.

Yeah, they.

They do.

It's Berkeley, nyc, so.

But that's for master students only, so not.

And it's a pretty small program, so.

Okay, that's cool.

So we're going to talk about.

So I invited Kat on my show to.

To tell me my.

About my song.

Yeah, well, there's questions about your song.

Great, great.

Because.

Yeah, we'll.

We'll do all that.

And I'm trying to see if I have the.

I think I have the.

I sent you.

I have all of it.

I have the, like.

I have it pulled up too.

So I have the audio file.

I have the lyrics.

Yeah.

I was going to just say.

Because I would share screen so people can read along.

Sure.

If they want to.

I just can't find it for some reason, even though it's so.

It's like a.

It's called.

We're doing 1989 today.

That is correct.

Not the Taylor Swift song.

No, that's an album.

Taylor Swift's album.

Let me just search for it.

1989.

Oh, of course.

Because I have so many.

There's so many tracks and things.

And like, there's.

There are a million.

There are a million production notes.

Wow.

My producer.

My producer is really good.

If you're in Brooklyn, his name is Marco Verisco.

Okay.

And he.

He.

You can send him just the scratch track of your song, and then he gets it all ready and.

And then you top line it and.

Then you just show up.

Okay.

And record.

Because he plays.

He's a piano player is his main instrument, but he plays guitar, bass, and drums.

Got it.

So should I share my screen?

I mean, that's up to you.

Yeah, I mean, we're gonna talk about lyrics.

We're talking about.

Sometimes it might be easier.

Great.

Cool.

So.

So here we go.

This song is called 1989.

Do.

Should I say a little bit before you want to.

You want to guide me?

Give me a little intro.

Okay.

So I.

The song that we did prior was called is called Hope.

Yep.

But it really was a song about people who are different and people coming together and feeling different.

But, you know, and that being okay.

This was actually the end of it.

So that song is in the key of D major.

And this song is in the key of F sharp minor minor.

But Phrygian, okay.

And it's a Phrygian 145.

And it was meant to be sort of like a jam out, sort of Prague style jam.

But I ended up a friend of mine who I do, who I co write with, convinced me that Hope was better as a single and he, he, he made me take out like this sort of dark ending section.

Okay.

And you know, I'm.

I'm not a very conscious songwriter to be.

To be totally honest.

I get, I guess I just get a feeling and then things just sort of flow out of me and it's just like kind of.

It's not.

I'm not purposeful about my songwriting, you know, except I just, I'm trying to develop a process.

But it's sort of like I just get a feeling and then it just, you know, vomited out.

And then I try to make it fit to music.

And that song ended with something that was a little darker and then it transitioned to this and this was like the ending part, which is in Phrygian, which is sort of like a darkish sort of sounding thing.

And it has darker lyrics.

And really all it is is a poem.

And I was inspired by the song 1979 by, by smashing Pumpkin.

So their lyric literally is Shakedown, 1979.

Cool.

Kids never have the time.

Okay.

But I've always felt different.

And I always felt like an outsider, you know, for what it's worth, as a, like a, you know, like a heterosexual middle aged white man who works in finance, which is literally all true.

I literally have always felt like an outsider.

I was very like, quiet kid, introspective, and I just felt different, you know, from people.

And so.

And this was kind of like in a dark moment, this just like I vomited this up, you know, it just came out just like as you're reading it, it came out all in one, in one thing.

Okay?

And that's how it, that's how it happened.

Okay.

Okay.

So you answered some questions that I had because when you sent it to me, there was no, there's no background on it was just like.

And I listened to it and one of the questions I had was like, what's the intention behind the song?

And so you answered that with like, this is supposed to be this kind of like prog rock roof thing, which helps the song, I think, make a lot more sense to what I'm like listening to.

Because if it's not that intention, then like, I'm a Little lost, you know.

But if that's the intention of the song, then it totally tracks for anyone listening who doesn't.

You're.

We're like fridgin.

And you're like, I don't know what that is.

Just go listen to Sam Smith's Holy and you will totally understand what fridgen.

Like, I mean, your song sounds like this too, but like, Sam Smith's Holy is like an example that people might know that has like a very frigid melody and chords and.

Yeah.

So just kind of as a.

Another popular reference to go check out.

If you're wondering what that is.

It's a way of organizing notes to be a little creepy, a little like, less sad, more like.

I don't know.

I mean, it's kind of creepy.

It was like the devils.

Like, it had a lot to do with the devil.

Like, you weren't allowed to do it to use this particular, like, mode for a long time because it was like, outlawed and banned.

But yeah, okay.

So I thought the music was really cool.

Like.

Like, I liked the.

The whole, like, Prague thing.

I have some thoughts on the lyrics that I.

And you explaining it that you just sort of like, this is what happened is kind of what it sounds like.

And I think that.

I don't know if you would re record it, but if you did, there's a one shift that you could make that I think would make the lyric stronger.

And it's not a huge shift.

So in verse two, you say, all this can be yours.

And then you list a whole bunch of things and then the chorus says, it's a life's work.

Right.

And so I was stuck going, like, well, what's a life's work?

Like, I don't understand from this lyric what the life's work is.

And so my brain tries to go like, well, how could I keep all this and still have it make sense?

And I wonder what would happen if instead of starting verse two with all this can be yours, you end verse three with all this can be yours.

And so then it would read, Shakedown, 1989.

Cool kids drink the cyanide.

Humans are wild animals, but the cage is in our minds.

The slippery slope, the thinness of clouds, the colors in closed eyes.

And I think I'd put the power, the power of loneliness just to kind of keep a little bit of a rhyme.

The flight of stillness, the course of blood, the philosophy of force.

All this can be yours.

Oh, and then we get a life's work.

And to me, that sort of does this thing where like we have really broad thing at the beginning going down towards like a more narrow focus to really like shine a light on what the chorus is saying.

And I mean, I don't know what order those that list would come in.

I think you'd probably have to go and figure out like, what's the strongest order.

Philosophy of force feels like a very strong line.

Like, I would probably.

If I was going to rework those lyrics, I would write them down, I would probably, well print them.

I would blow this up, I would print it out, I would cut it up with this pair of scissors and I would rearrange that list in order of like the weakest thing to the strongest thing.

In terms of like.

Yeah, you're talking about, right?

Like the slippery slope, the thinness of clouds, like the colors and closed eyes.

Those feel a little more like wispy versus like.

And the flight of stillness too.

The course of blood, the power of loneliness, the philosophy.

Those are stronger sayings.

And like, put them in order so the kind of quote unquote weakest one.

They're not weak.

I just mean like, do you know what I mean?

Like, I do comes first.

And then it ends with like, because you're listing all these things and then you say all this can be yours.

It's a life's work, right?

And like.

So I think like, your.

The brain, like, spit out some really cool things.

And simply by saying, like, is this the strongest position for these places?

It actually could make your strong, your song stronger.

Especially because like the chorus comes, it repeats four times, and then there's this big like solo thing.

And then the chorus comes again.

And so like, what am I left with and what I get when I'm at all this can be yours.

I'm thinking about what just happened in verse one.

And I'm like, I died, right?

Because I'm.

Cyanide kills you, right?

And like.

And I'm crazy.

I died.

I'm crazy and I died and.

And then I'm like, all this can be mine.

Why would I want that, right?

Versus this kind of shakedown.

The cool kids are doing bad things, humans are wild animals, the cage is in our minds.

And then we get kind of this list of things that could be mine.

And that's my life's work, is to try to figure out what those things are.

That's my thought on your lyrics.

So I.

So this is why I love.

This is why I love doing these things.

Because I have no, you know, it's.

I. I know, but you already recorded.

It with, like, a master vocal.

So I was like, this is.

You're gonna kill me because this is.

My plan is to release it and then have you critique it after every time.

It's like, why is he doing this?

Like, why is this part of, like.

Like, some.

You know, I mean, this is like.

It's like I'm playing a prank on myself or something.

Well, I mean, generally, I don't critique things that are going to be released around the world because my belief is, like, a songwriter.

We talked about this last time.

But, like, if a songwriter believes, like, it's ready to go out, then who am I to tell them not?

Yeah, but you're like, well, but I want you to tell me that.

And I'm like, I've given you express permission.

I know.

To even tear it apart would be totally fine.

Because, you know, honestly, I feel like it comes back to the whole thing about whether you call yourself an artist or not.

And I do call myself an artist, but maybe I'm sort of like, meta calling attention to this whole idea of, like, is it finished?

Is it not finished?

What does it even mean to release this?

Is it good?

Is it bad?

Like, who can even say, you know?

Yeah, but.

But you're totally right.

I think that I sort of instinctually did to a certain extent what you're saying, because I did sort of put, like, these order.

Yeah, they're in order.

Right.

Except for all this can be yours.

And that's.

Except for all this can be.

Feels like it should be last because it's not a pre chorus, but, like, if it was functioning like that, that would be.

The function of that piece is, like, leading us into the chorus.

It.

You know, it's.

And I don't even know if this is sort of like, it might be illegal to do this, but this is like, a highly sarcastic song in my mind because it's like I'm feeling.

I feel like I'm.

I'm just.

You know, And I know I don't want to be this person, but I feel like I'm saying, like, oh, the cool kids.

You know, Like, I'm.

I'm like a real.

This is like.

Like my hater song.

Like, I'm a hater, and I'm saying all this can be yours.

Like, all this ethereal, meaningless stuff and all this bad stuff.

Like, it's.

You know, it's like, this is what you've taken control of.

And then when I say a life's work, it's like, I'm just.

It's like, almost like I'm being sarcastic.

Like, yeah, no, I got that.

And I'm not sure if that's allowed.

I mean, there's.

There is.

It is allowed.

Or even if you put.

Put.

All this can be yours at the beginning and the end.

Like, I. I think I just like when I read it and even when I listen to it, because all this can be yours is a phrase that is.

Is related to whatever came before it.

Generally speaking, like, when we talk about.

We.

Like when we say that in a conversation, I would say, like, the Christmas tree with the lights and the white picket fence and the blah, blah, blah.

All this can be yours for $1 million.

Right.

Like, that's how we use this phrase.

Yeah.

And you're using it like the backward way where you normally would say something like, for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you can get the slippery slope.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like, we would use the.

The line differently.

And so I think.

Right.

I'm just looking at it from that perspective of, like.

I think it would be a.

Like, it's a strong lyric, but I think it would be even stronger if that position moved or you put it at the beginning and the end so that I understand, like, all this can be yours.

The slippery slope, the blah, blah.

The philosophy of force.

All this can be yours.

It's a life's work, you know?

Like, it.

It adds to the sarcasm of that.

But it's.

The tricky thing about using cliches is that, like, we have an understanding of what a cliche is and what it does and what it says and how they're used.

And so I don't know.

I mean, the lyric is ambiguous overall, but I don't know.

You asked, like, what I would do.

I think that would be the thing that I would do.

Yeah.

You know what's funny is that.

So this is just a reflection of mine, but I always listen to music and I hear songwriters use cliches, and I always get jealous because I think, oh, they thought of using that cliche before I got to use it.

And I.

Then I feel real mad.

It happens to me all the time.

But this one, all this can be yours.

I didn't put it together that actually it is a cliche.

And it's hilarious that you're remembering the commercials.

You're like, thinking, like, this is a qvc.

Yeah.

The video for this is totally qvc.

And I think it's like, you know, remember Black?

The video for Black Hole Sun?

No, not really.

It's like.

It's like a Squeaky clean.

Almost like.

Like a Stepford Wives sort of looking scene.

That's almost.

It's like hyper real and maybe a little cartoonish, but then it's absur.

Absurd.

Like, it's grotesquely absurd.

Like their faces are all weird.

I feel like this is.

This.

Is.

This video for this song is like that hyper real, almost cartoonish but grotesque.

And it's literally like a QVC show.

And it's like prices and, you know, and like somebody is like, dishing out all the features of this, like your new life slip.

Likes people sliding down a slope like lemmings into, like a fire or something.

Or like clouds.

Like, people think they're in heaven, but there's nothing there.

The clouds are.

So people are just falling to their deaths.

Like they thought they arrived and then in actuality there was nothing holding them up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Like.

Yeah, but I think it's definitely something.

Just something I also had, like, on the.

The melody of the chorus was also in the same pitch set as the rest as the verses.

So I was sort of wishing that, like, it was higher or, like had a harmony on it because it's.

It's right in the same place as the meat of most of your verses in terms of, like, what the actual notes are themselves.

And wanted something that was also maybe a different shape because the shape of the chorus is also very similar to the beginning of every line.

And so just thinking about, like, how to make that chorus.

Yeah.

Like, be more sarcastic even.

Like, it just.

It sounds just very matter of fact.

And I think maybe with a different melody or even some harmony on top of it of the melody that you have, it might sound a little more sarcastic or be a bit more impactful.

Yeah.

And then because the solo at the end is like two minutes or like a minute and a half, it's pretty long.

And there's no other vocals, which, I mean, from your explanation, I get that.

But I also was thinking it could be potentially cool to have like a background vocal kind of pad singing, like, life's work.

Like, kind of as if like they were horns kind of in the background, you know, not really.

Like, not the words in front.

Like, the solo would still be like, in the foreground of the mix and things like that.

But they would kind of be these like, synthesis pads, but would be vocal stuff just to kind of keep that kind of in the presence of.

And maybe not through the whole solo, but maybe through like a little bit of.

It could be cool as, like, just a additional ear Candy.

You know, almost if there was a synth pad or horns that came in to, like, you know, just go like that a little bit.

I do like that.

Those were, like, musical, like, thoughts on, like, that piece of it.

To be honest there, I don't even have a set arrangement for the song.

Yeah.

I mean, it felt pretty free, but, like, yeah, it was like, what would I add?

Like, we were talking about, like, production and things like that, and it's like, well, what would I add to this?

Or is there something I would take away to bring something?

And those were things that I was like, it might be interesting to try it.

You know, it might not work, but it was like something where I was like, I don't know.

That'd be something to, like, explore.

I like that a lot, actually.

And that's that I did use that idea once in my first record, and I loved the way it came out because it was like.

Basically it was towards the end of a long solo.

I don't do lots of long solos, but usually one or two songs on a record have a long solo solo.

And towards the end of it, like, at the climax of the solo, it wasn't the chorus, but it was just the harmony parts of the chorus.

So the higher parts.

Yeah.

And it sounded so cool and I didn't think about it for this, but.

It does harmony with, like, tons of reverb on it and, like, delays.

Like, just kind of like it's there and if you're not really paying attention, you don't notice that it's words.

But if you kind of hone in on it, you actually hear lives work, like, and, like, these long kind of football, like, whole note things going on.

Yes.

Swirling around in the background as, like, added texture behind the solo.

Could be fun.

It's a cool idea.

Yeah, I like that.

And I think it would go in with, like, the amorphous and ambiguousness of some of the lyric and capture some of the.

The, like, vibe of that, you know, just carrying that through.

So I do love that idea, actually.

So I think one of the things that I wanted to ask you about this song, because the last time.

So, you know, fair warning, I guess, like, all of my songs are kind of amorphous and abstract.

I got that about your writing.

It's cool.

Like, but thank you.

The last time you.

We did it, you were like, oh, this.

This is sort of.

I think it was more.

Because it was more of a pop song, so it had meaning.

And then you're.

One of your criticisms was, well, it has Meaning, but.

But not enough like you did.

I didn't commit and I didn't really follow through to make it come.

To make them.

To really make the meaning of the song come through in all the lyrics.

It was sort of.

There was some meaning here, but then it got sparse here and it didn't really hit, you know, it didn't drive the point home.

And then it followed up here, but then it's like you hadn't driven the point home.

So what happened here?

But this song, it was almost like purposefully just, you know, abstract and amorphous.

So did.

Did that come across here?

Oh, yeah, no.

I got like totally ambiguousness here.

And it feels like it's totally in that pocket of, you know, in that Radiohead esque kind of like, space of like, what are they actually talking about?

I have no idea, you know?

Right.

But you sort of do, you know, or David Bowie stuff where, like, you kind of know what he's talking about, but you don't really.

But it's like this feeling that you get, like, I get that from this, you know, even as it just as it is.

It's sort of like if you wanted it to kind of like not make more sense necessarily, but sort of just land harder.

If I'm listening to the lyrics, like, that's the reason to make the switch from that all this can be yours piece where it would just.

It's still amorphous and ambiguous.

But there's this sort of point that I can be like, oh, that's cool.

Let me go listen again, you know, because when you listen to David Bowie or Radiohead, like, you don't ever listen to those songs once you're listening to them again to find the meaning, to see if you can figure out, like, what they're talking about.

To see if you can, like.

Like, what does he really mean?

You know, I mean, there's like so many articles and journal things and, like, people guessing, you know, like, what did they write about?

And unless they tell you, you don't know.

So, yeah, I think this totally nails.

Like, it's in that.

That pool of stuff which I. I find really challenging.

I have students that want to write in this, and so I always make a point of covering how to write, like, in ambiguous ways.

Like, there's all kinds of tools and tricks to share with students, but it doesn't always get taught in kind of mainstream songwriting because it's like, yeah, it's not.

It's not what most people are doing or listening to, but there's always A student in every one of my classes who wants to write more like this.

And I think it's always important to share, like, hey, there are tools and there are ways to do this more.

Or if you're kind of trying to dip your toe in it, like, how do you do it?

You know, how do you write something that feels like something and doesn't really say the thing?

It's feeling, you know, so that's.

Yeah.

So I have questions for you that.

Because that's really interesting because I feel like most of the songwriting books that I've come across are like the, you know, pop formula or like the Nashville style.

Yep.

And I actually have never seen a book on how to write like, just like poem music or, you know, like abstract.

Abstract stuff.

No, but there are lots of tools, actually.

Like, I have an entire slide deck on, like, how to do it with like, at least 25 different slides and like, different techniques.

I mean, there's the cut up technique that I mentioned.

Like, that's a David, I mean, William Burroughs thing.

Like the author used to do that and David Bowie took it from him.

Where, like, you literally, like, write, write down something, or you take something from some and you print it out and you cut it up into like, you know, those little refrigerator magnet kinds of things.

You literally start piecing things together to like, have it make sense.

I'll often do that with students.

I'll take poems from other people that are kind of written about the same thing.

So like a couple poems about snow from different people, and I'll have them cut them up and, you know, and like, mix them all up and then start putting things together.

And they can always use articles like a.

And the, like that stuff they can reuse, but any actual words they can't.

So you're taking something from something that already exists within a lane and you're piecing it together in your own way.

And so you don't really have choices of words.

So you have to make things work as best you can.

But you can do it with your own work.

You can do it with a song that you have.

You can do it with a journal entry where you're writing about something specific and then you just cut it all up and like, try to piece together lyrics.

But that, that's like one technique.

But there's.

There's actually like a whole bunch of different things that you can do and work on to get better at writing ambiguous lyrics.

If that's your bag.

Yeah, it's fun.

It's totally, you know, it's actually good to hear.

Yeah, well, I didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in all honesty, I didn't really know a lot about it until, like, I had a student in a class two years ago who asked.

And.

And then a couple more students in the class also asked, and they were like, can you teach us about this?

And I was like, sure, give me a week, you know, because that's who I am as an educator.

I'm like, if I.

Let me go figure it out, you know.

And so I just started doing research and started reading about, like, how different people who work in that do things and, like, started finding resources, and I just put them all together into a slide deck to share with students about, like, how to write in this kind of style because it is something that students want to explore and that, you know, that I've even explored just because, you know, my students are doing.

And I'm like, well, let me try it.

Like, I don't generally write a lot of ambiguous things.

I tend.

I used to.

Like, my first stuff was so, like, out there, but, like, I just.

I discovered I liked more meaning.

Like, I had, like, to have more meaning in my.

My stuff and, like, more clear writing, but that just came with age.

So.

Yeah, well, I'm not grown up yet, so.

No, but I just think that came with, like, my personal preferences of, like, what and how I wanted to say, say, and what I realized about my own writing.

And I.

But.

But I didn't know what I.

And.

And so I think that's the other thing I find is when students often write ambiguous lyrics, sometimes they don't actually mean to write them.

They just don't know how to say what they're trying to say.

And so it's.

It's a balance of, like, well, what's your intention?

And they're like, well, it's this.

And I'm like, okay, well, you're not getting that.

And.

And so, like, how do you.

It's also trying to help students be clearer with what they're actually trying to say.

And they might not have the tools to write clearly.

And so there are other ways to, like, work with that kind of thing.

So it's just.

And vice versa.

It's like, if you're great at writing very clear things, you might not be as great at writing ambiguous things.

And if you write a lot of ambiguity in your stuff, you might have.

You might struggle with writing with clear, like, direction.

And so it's sort of like when I'm working with students at these, you know, universities, My philosophy is, like, I'm going to try to give you at least tools to work in anything, so that no matter what room you're in or where you're at, you have had experience doing this because you're investing all this money and time into learning.

Like, you should walk away with as many tools in your toolbox as I can possibly give you.

So, yeah, I.

That makes me think of a lot of things.

We're gonna be.

We're gonna be.

We're gonna be out of time, so I don't think we're gonna have enough time to finish it all up.

But I did have a couple of.

Like, I did have.

One thing that it made me think of was that I always want to be a little bit vulnerable during these things.

And I do think that there is this an element of.

I feel comfortable in this sort of expressing myself in this way, in part because I don't have whatever it is, like, the emotional vocabulary to make it clearer.

And there probably is some element of that in my writing and my personality.

That's the one thing.

I guess I can go through the list very quickly.

So that is on my mind.

And of course, there are songs that.

That I think are, like, the greatest songs ever written.

And a lot of times they are, you know, like, narrative, basically.

They really actually have.

You know, they're either, like, a good example is.

And it's so simple, but I don't know why it's so beautiful to me.

But Grapevine Fires by not the Postal Service, but the other one, Death Cab for Cutie.

Okay.

I do not know why that song is so beautiful.

For me, it's just like the.

It's just like the telling of a day where there was a big fire just happened to be a big fire that day.

But he's just sort of like, telling the story of the day, and it's almost like nothing really happened except for, like, his life happened.

And also there was a big fire and a grapevine nearby.

Yeah.

And there's nothing to it, but to me, it was like.

It's literally the.

One of the most beautiful songs ever written.

And I don't think I could ever write it, you know, because I'm not narrative like that.

And.

But I think.

But the other side of it is that.

And I had this realization because I work in finance, and I'm developing a brand.

A finance brand.

Right.

And.

But I'm not your typical finance guy.

I'm different.

And I'm trying to develop something different.

And I asked a lot of people about this brand that I'm coming up with, with, and I've gotten mixed feedback at best.

And after you do all your market research, so to speak.

Yeah, I had to fall back on being an artist and I came to a realization that sometimes you can do all the market research in the world, but sometimes you have to fall back on being an artist.

And one of the jobs of artists is to tell people what's beautiful, especially if they haven't seen anything like it before.

Right.

And so I was like, you know what?

It, I'm just gonna.

People don't like this idea, but I'm just gonna tell people that this is the right, this is what people should be doing now.

And that's why I'm doing it.

And because you don't get the type of feedback from people who are been in a lane.

Right.

I might be wrong, I might be totally off base, but my sense is that people have been in a lane for so long that they can't see how to get out of that lane.

And they don't see that.

The potential of what I'm trying to tell them is it is something, it's new, but it can be the right thing, you know, for the next 50 years.

Because we've had, we've tried something for, you know, the past 125 years and now maybe we should try something different.

I might be totally wrong, but I have to have a decision making process.

And my decision making process is I'm also an artist.

And because I'm an artist, I'm allowed to just say, okay, this is my art and this is what it's going to be.

And I'm going to tell you that it's beautiful.

And if you don't believe me, then it's just, you know, then that's fine.

You just either I'm wrong or you're not ready to hear it, or I'm right and you will believe me, you know, or it's not for everybody, you know, or whatever it is.

But like, so, you know, sometimes it's just, it's like having license to do it.

Yeah.

You know, I agree.

Yeah.

I mean, I think way too often we tend to just, oh, well, that's the way it's been done.

So we have to do it that way, you know, instead of like, well, I mean, as a, like that's one thing.

Doing a doctorate, like taught me was like, like how to question that of like, well, are you sure?

Like, maybe it's the best way, but like, maybe we should test out different Ways and find out if it.

It's still the best way.

Because maybe in 1970, it was a great way based on X, Y, and z.

But in 20, 25 or 6, where we're going, like, there might be factors that.

That isn't the best way you know, anymore.

I mean, just like.

I mean, women owning a bank account.

If we went with 1970 rules, like, I can't have a bank account.

Are you sure that's the best way?

Like, I don't think that's the best way.

Like, I think it's much better that I can walk into a bank and get a bank account regardless of whether I'm married or have a boyfriend or a parent with me.

You know, as a woman, like, that's kind of nuts.

Like, in the year that I was born was the first year that women could do that, which is just like.

But it's that kind of mentality of, like, well, it's been done that way, so it should be done.

And it's like, questioning that reality.

I think, as an artist is.

Is always important.

And questioning, like, even you saying, like, well, that isn't how I write.

You know, there are ways to, like, practice writing more, like, with, like, clarity and intentionality.

And some of it, like, based on, like, what I'm getting from you.

My guess is that it's a little scary to, like, be that open.

But I would offer that, like, you could write a song just for yourself where you explore that as an exercise of, like, taking a song like the one we just looked at.

And what you do is you take every line and you rewrite it into exactly what you want to say.

Not the kind of ambiguous way, but, like, what are you actually trying to say in the stillness of blood?

Like, I'm trying to say that I love you, you know?

And, like, I don't know what that means, but you know what I mean?

It's like, whatever that's actually meaning for you.

And it doesn't matter if the lyric makes sense or not when you do the exercise.

It's just an exercise to explore the feelings that you're actually having behind all the kind of ambiguous things and that you never have to show anybody.

I think that's something in our society, we don't.

It's all about show and tell.

And it's not as much about, like, you know, just.

Well, just explore it for yourself.

I mean, I have songs that no one will ever hear.

You know, I didn't write them for anybody.

I wrote them for me to figure out my Way through something or to explore a concept or practice something.

Something hard that I'm not used to exploring or.

Or they just didn't turn out that great, you know?

But, like, doing the exercise of writing them is still worth the time, you know, and it's always worth the time to make stuff like good, bad, doesn't matter.

Like, it's.

It's always worth being creative.

Like, that's what we are as humans.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I think you're right.

I. I have been just like.

Just like you said.

I don't think I've.

Well, there are some songs, but there's plenty of notebooks filled with stuff that, you know, I mean, if any.

If.

When I'm dead they stumble upon them open, they're gonna find some really embarrassing in there.

But, you know, and not just embarrassing, like, about the topics, but just embarrassing about how bad it is, you know?

Like, it's not even what I'm trying to say.

It's just like the way I said it was so bad, you know, and so juvenile, but it's like.

Yeah, that's what it.

You know, that's what I was like back then, you know, it's like high school, you know?

Okay, well, listen, dude, I did.

Did you want to say anything else about song or anything?

No, I think it was fun.

Okay.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm very honored to be a part of this.

Dude.

I.

This is like, you know, you are.

This is something that happens to me all the time in this podcast because it's like, you know, it's not like I'm, you know, like, Paul McCartney hasn't been on my show.

Right.

But people that I probably shouldn't have on a.

On a rinky dink show like this, like, you.

I mean, you're like a legit, and you're a legit songwriter.

You're credentialed.

You're.

You're actually really doing it.

You know, it's like.

So I.

It's really.

This is one of the thing.

I mean, I feel super lucky to.

Even be able to randomly finding each other on the interwebs.

Like, is that what it was?

Yeah, you posted something on Facebook and I, like, replied like.

And I was like, oh, that looks interesting.

Like, why not?

Yeah, it was probably like, does anyone.

Is anyone a professional songwriter who can help me with my song, something like that wants to do it in public?

Yeah, but once.

But wouldn't mind doing it, like, in public view.

Something like that.

It's all good.

So.

Yeah, so.

So I appreciate you I appreciate you coming on the show.

It's a big deal for me.

Well, you're so welcome.

It's always fun.

I love these conversations.

It's super fun.

It is super fun.

Do you have anything to plug?

I mean, we plugged the book and that's awesome.

And I did order it and I will.

SFME is doing this is relevant to our conversation.

A Song a Day challenge in January.

So what.

What is it?

What's the organization?

Songwriting for Music Educator.

So the company that I co own, we do this is our fifth year doing it.

Annual songwriting Song a day challenge where people can sign up and you'll get like a PDF with like 31 prompts on it, but you'll also get a daily email of inspiration to help you write.

And the challenge is really just to do some writing every day to be creative, to like try to make something, whether it's a little bit of a melody, it's a chorus, a verse, and I kind of take it one step further and write a full song every day.

So it'll be the fifth year of doing that and I try to do it within an hour.

So I kind of give myself an hour to like write the song and post it online.

Wow.

The posting is not part of the process.

Like we have a lot of people that do this challenge and they'll just send us little emails with like, thanks, this was really cool.

So it's.

It doesn't have to be a front facing kind of an event for anyone.

It's just sort of like a personal challenge to see if you can add some creativity into your life in January.

So.

Oh, so it start.

So it's through the month of January 1st?

Yeah.

Oh, great.

So can we.

Because I suck at releasing these podcasts.

Can you send me the info for that, like right away?

Yeah, I'll put that out first and then.

But and then.

Because by the time the show comes out, I mean, it'll come out before then, I'm sure.

But I don't want people to miss out on that.

Yeah, well.

And you could do it.

It's fun.

Yeah.

You know, it's just like.

And there's no pressure.

There's nobody saying like, you have to do it or, you know, it's sort of like noticing what happens when you try to do something creative every day.

And like, you know, I'm looking at January and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to namm.

How am I gonna write?

Like, are you going to namm?

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm Presenting on form.

So I'll be, like, speaking about form and songwriting structure.

And then, like, yeah, it should be fun.

And then, like.

And then we have to start.

I have to start teaching at the end of January, and so that's always a little tricky of, like, how can I write songs while I'm teaching at the same day?

Like, where do I have the time?

So, yeah, it's.

But it's also just an exercise in, like, showing up.

So.

You know what?

I'll.

I'll consider doing it.

I think I do feel a little pressure, like, to be able to write a whole song, but if I could write a line a day or something.

Something.

Yeah.

I mean, it.

You know, the challenge is not necessarily, like, write a song, and that's what we call it, but it's really just about being creative or trying to, like, do something, you know, in the songwriting realm every day for a month and see, like, what you notice.

So.

Well, what most people don't know about me, but some people do.

About 550 people know this about me because that's how many people follow this YouTube channel.

I have been doing 10 minutes of practice every day.

Nice.

For over 1600 days.

That's awesome.

And posting that on YouTube.

Wow.

So I don't practice.

I don't write every single day, but I do.

That's ballsy.

Every single day.

That's so ballsy.

I'm like, nobody wants to see me try to get this hammer on with, like, the little slide thing, man.

It's.

You know, after you do it for 1600 days, you start to come up with a way that, you know, it's like, not totally practice, but is also practice.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

But it's.

But.

But it.

But it's not, you know, performance.

It's really pretty cool.

So it's crazy, but.

No, that's cool.

I. I don't know if I would, like.

Like, I don't know if anybody wants to hear my st.

String rattle because I didn't get the hammer on correct.

I know.

Yeah.

About.

I could tell you how many people want to do that.

About 550 people over the course, organically, over the course of however many days that is.

However many years.

1600 days is.

It's kind of awesome.

That's five years, I think.

Wow.

It's a little nuts.

But so I'm not.

I'm doing everything.

Doing one simple thing every day is not.

I'm not averse to it.

But, yeah.

Love it.

All right, well, okay.

So thank you.

You are awesome.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, happy holidays for whatever.

And.

Yeah, have a great one.

Thanks.

Okay, you too.

Bye.

Bye, Cat.