Welcome to Headroom, the podcast where we explore all things essential to mental health and well being. I'm Jim Owens, your host and licensed mental health counselor at Lansing Community College. While you're about to hear from some phenomenal people who have incredible ideas for you and your life, podcasts are no substitute for professional medical advice. So if you need help, Please call or text 988. Okay, having said that, let's get into the Headroom and begin today's conversation. All right, welcome back to the show, everybody. I'm excited to have one of my good friends and colleagues in the studio with us today, Mark Vroman. Welcome, Mark.

Hey, good morning, Jim. How are you today?

I'm good. Thanks for coming down. You made the trip to campus.

My pleasure, My pleasure. Back to my alma mater. Right from the back.

Yeah. As we were talking about walking over here, going down memory lane, walking over to the studio. You were a student here.

Yes.

And I'd love for people to hear a little bit about your background and how you got into your field, and then we'll talk about some of your experiences working in the field. But I think it's a good place to start. Like, I'm a graduate of LCC, you're a graduate of LCC. I think it's good for people to hear those kinds of things and how our careers can evolve from that place. So, yeah, take us all the way back to the early 90s.

My goodness. Yeah. And lots, as we saw, lots of change, obviously. Positive change. Yeah. Early 90s came to LCC and as I mentioned to you on the walk over from the parking ramp there, that pretty much lived here for. For three years and went to school, went through the emt, paramedic program, fire academy, obtained an associate degree in fire science. And yeah, it was a busy three years, but just a great experience here.

That's a rigorous training program.

It was. Yeah. And wrapped it up with the paramedic school, which, you know, took, I believe, you know, it was the most effort, really, from an academic. Yeah.

Okay.

And then, you know, the clinical time and the ride alongs.

Yeah.

And at the time, LCC was one of the few nationally accredited programs throughout the entire Midwest.

Wow.

So, yeah.

Were you kind of ahead of your time, too, doing both fire and paramedic? Because I think people might have just specialized one or the other back then.

You know, it was really starting to move. The Lansing area in particular, embraced EMS early on and transport ems. So to just kind of summarize, the ambulance service would operate out of the fire department so if you look in the greater Lansing area.

Yeah.

And throughout the metropolitan region, you'll see all of the fire departments, nearly all the fire department provide transport, fire based ems.

Okay.

So, yeah.

And maybe that's when it was transitioning. I mean, I don't know how important this is really to get into, but I'm curious, like in the 60s, 70s, 80s, it was like there was a fire department.

Sure.

And then there was, you know, ems. Separate maybe. Yeah, yeah.

I initially got into school and was like, okay, I'll get my emt. And then I just, I really love the program and then decided, you know, I'm going to take that next step to paramedic. And fortunately, I was able to do it right here and move right through in a very streamlined process in 36 months.

So.

Yeah.

To walk out with multiple credentials at that point.

Yeah, yeah.

So what drew you into. So you're, you're, I didn't realize this. Actually, your primary passion when you first came was ems. More so than fire science?

Actually. It was, it was both.

It was both.

Okay. Nope, nope. You're good. No, it was both. I, I, in fact, I would say I came here because I knew more about the fire than I did the ems.

Okay.

And so, yeah, it was, it was great. I, people ask me now and you know, and they'll say, you know, did you really like being, you know, a firefighter? Paramedic? And I say, well, I very much so.

Yeah.

I liked being a firefighter.

Yeah.

But I loved being a paramedic.

Oh, okay.

So, yeah.

Oh, I want to get into that. I want to hear about that. So very good. Before we get up to that. Yeah. What was the inspiration then, back when you were, can I say, a kid?

Yeah, yeah. That's when it really started.

A young adult, let's say. Yeah.

Some of the listeners may remember there was a show in the early 70s. In fact, ironically, it premiered the week of my birth in 1972. January of 72.

Okay.

And the show is called Emergency.

Okay.

And it was about the emerging paramedic program with. In Los Angeles County.

Okay.

And I think the show ran successfully for five or six seasons.

Okay.

And that was Must watch, you know, Saturday night program for me. And that was, it was a great family night. I remember my mom making homemade pizza.

Wow.

Watch Emergency. And then that was late, you know, 8:00. Yeah. 9:00. When you're that young. Yeah. But I got to stay up. And then that really just kind of planted the seed, if you will, that just continued to grow over the next 17, 18 years.

Wow, that's fascinating that it goes all the way back to your childhood. And I think that's true for a lot of people. Of course, as a psychotherapist, I'm always like, let's go back to your childhood.

There you go.

Right. What was going on when you were age 6. But that stuff, actually, those are formative years. We know that. They aren't completely deterministic. They're pivot points more than anything else. But that's exciting. So then you came to the program and you ride alongs. At what point did you realize that this was not going to be the job you had actually imagined? Because I hear I'm setting this up like that job is harder than it looks from the outside, is it not?

It is. I think when you're younger most of the time and when you watch tv, everyone, there's a positive outcome.

Right. You know that third actually wrap it all up.

Yeah, that's right. And then we know once you get into the real world that the positive outcomes aren't, you know, those are great things, but perhaps not as frequent as we wish they were.

Yeah. And so of course you mentioned a second ago doing ride alongs and you would have seen. Yeah. Not what's on tv where everything's packaged up nice and neat or maybe a cliffhanger till next week's episode. But you get closure in some of those scenarios that aren't. That's not, they're not good outcomes.

Very. That's a great. That's a, that's a great assessment of really what. But I'm glad that you have the ride along in clinical experience because it does help prepare you. You know, of course we have simulation courses and.

Yeah.

And a lot of practical exercises through our training. But having that clinical and those ride along experiences really is where everything. Everything really comes together. And then when you get into an agency and an organization, the training and the onboarding is where things really start to come together from school to real world.

Getting your clinical skills together. Because there's two things I would love to talk about, which is your clinical training and that skill set. But then you have to continue to develop as a human being to deal with the. We're not going to talk just about the dark side. There's many. There's a light side to all the work that EMS and paramedic fire do. You know, you have to kind of get ready for dealing with death, shall we say? You can even say I'm broaching The subject kind of tentatively because our culture is not great about talking about death. And you immediately, day one, you're facing that and dealing with that kind of stuff, trying to keep people on the brink.

It's a good point. I share with family and friends that after, you know, 30 plus years, you know anyone, not just me, any. I believe we do have a different relationship with death than most people. And that doesn't make us better or make us any less human in terms of. It's just we have it, we've seen it and you become really for. For absolute lack of better term. It just. There's more of a comfort level, I guess, and I wish I could choose a better word.

I understand what you're getting. Comfort. There's a familiarity with it that doesn't breed anxiety around it like for most of us. And many psychologists have written about our anxiety around death. A good one. If people are listening and like to read books by. Well, it'll come to me later now that I'm thinking of the question I want to ask you instead of the. But it's called the Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. And he basically posits it's just such a frightening proposition for us that we're going to die. Of course we can get into the metaphysical conversation about what happens after death, but that's a tough one for us. But you become more familiar with it over time, right? Working in it. Yeah.

You do. I like that. I may steal that term familiar as opposed to comfort. You never get perhaps comfortable, but you're very familiar.

Yeah. And in that way it's not so anxiety producing. But you loved the work. I mean, you were in it for 30 some years. 30 years. How long did you do it?

Yeah, total 30 years.

Okay, 30 years. Walk us through your career a little bit. I mean, would you mind doing that and then we'll talk about some lessons learned and things.

Sure. No, thank you. Yeah, I started and was working as many do in the field as a volunteer firefighter work for a variety of private ambulance agencies. And at the time when I was looking to get on a fire department and join a fire department and make that my life's work, there were typically 20 applicants for every one open position. Now fast forward to today. It's flipped.

Oh really?

Because, you know, there's more career options, there's more competition, more options for those working with that have those paramedic credentials.

Okay.

And so on. But yeah, so I, I worked, you know, throughout the state and, and Then was fortunate in. In the mid-90s to get picked up. I was hired by the Meridian Township Fire Department here in the Lansing area, and then spent 25 years there.

Yeah.

And had a great career. Worked with just wonderful people. And we really had a. It had an EMS culture. I mean, we. We obviously took pride in our. Our. Our fire service and fire suppression, but there was a culture of EMS excellence. That is what really drew me to that agency. In fact, many of my colleagues when I hired in were my instructors at both the EMT and paramedic level here at LCC.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

Well, you and I have had a similar transition, actually, where we were both in the classroom together and we became colleagues.

That's great.

It's pretty cool that you've experienced that. It's fun, isn't it?

It really is.

Yeah. And then you rose through the ranks, eventually working your way up into leadership positions and mentoring and training and guiding and doing all kinds of things. Not just for Meridian. I gather around to a wider group than that. And so you understood what people needed to be prepared for, to be able to do the job. And I'm really curious about that. What is the human side of this job? Because there's a technical side to it, and you mentioned learning the technical stuff in class would be very challenging to anyone. But the human side of it, working with people who are suffering, let's say, which is kind of what I do. How did you grow in your own ability and grow your capacity to work with people? And here we can get into specifics. I mean, you will respond to drug overdoses, you will respond to suicide. You will respond to people's homes burning down or having burned down. I mean, all the kinds of tragic things that happen in our lives. How did you start to build out your capacity to be able to do that kind of work?

You know, when you first get into the. To the. You're so excited about the job. Yeah, Right. And as you settle into your. To your wonderful point, you start to, you know, as you make numerous calls a day and you get those calls and experience and rely on those more senior to you, just all of that. It's really a culmination of all of those experiences, learning from others, all of our continuing education. But on the human end, I. I think that who you are as a human being, as a. As a first responder, matters a great deal. I was always cautious. Some people will say, oh, I got in because I want that adrenaline.

Yeah.

And that was. That was never my. My motivation Mine was very focused on the people, the human. The human element and attempting to improve the human condition. Someone once said that, you know, we're in the worst day of people's lives business.

Right.

And I think we always need to keep that in mind. And first responders need to keep that in mind because it's a privilege that people at their most vulnerable moment will invite you into their home at 3 o'clock in the morning. Bedside.

Yeah.

Where family members aren't even allowed. So I say all that to say that it was just an immense privilege.

Wow.

To be able to be the. There for people. Complete. In. In really. I. I never liked the term that you're going into a complete strangers. I looked. I looked at them as fellow community members.

Okay.

These are the. We. We share a lot, even though we may have never met.

Yeah.

And I may only have 15 to 20 minutes with them, whether it was on a emergency medical scene or at a. At a fire scene.

Yeah.

So. But I would circle back just to say, keeping in mind that that's a privilege and that we are going to see things and people at their. At their worst.

Yeah.

At their most vulnerable time. And that, you know, don't lose sight of that human element.

You know, when you say, I want to come back to the relationship piece. But you talk about being in people's lives at some of the worst moments of their lives. You know, as a therapist, I hear about the worst things that have ever happened to people, but I don't see it. I manufacture it in my own head because they're telling me a story and I can kind of put a scene together. And that distance, that objectivity protects me. I think, frankly, psychologically, it provides protection for me. Although I've heard horrible and you've seen. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. But I've heard, literally, I've heard the worst things that can happen to a person. Sadistic things. I can't, even after 25 years of doing this, I can't create in my own mind. I couldn't imagine some of the horrors that people have endured at the hands of other human beings. But I'm kind of protected and insulated in a way because it is being told as a narrative in my office. It's a story. It's a real story, but it's a story. I don't have to see it, smell it. None of it gets on me. And here I don't want to dig too deep and open any wounds that you may have. But yours is another level And I'm not trying to be hierarchical about this and put one person's work above the other, but it's a completely different experience, I think, in that regard. And the kind of protection isn't there that I get.

One of the fortunate things with being a caregiver in the setting that you just described, you know, you're, you're, you're one on one with many.

Yes.

With. Fortunately, in the, In. In the, in the work environment in which, you know, I, I, you know, we've discussed that. I was, you know, within a team structure.

Yeah.

And that is very helpful.

Okay.

At the very least, you had your, you and your partner around the ambulance. If not, you know, an entire crew from the fire department together. And that really helps because when you go through those things and you can share and have some discussions, and I think we've gotten better.

Okay.

When I first came in, it was. There was no. You just did it. Went on the calls. And then, you know, as the body of knowledge expanded, we knew that our providers, you know, needed to have an outlet if they wanted that and if they needed that. And then, you know, as you noted, being in those positions where you're exercising leadership, it's an important to keep an eye on your personnel, you know, especially if they. It's not just the one call. It's when they catch three or four challenging calls where, you know, there can be, you know, a great deal of trauma for not only the, the individuals involved, but for the providers and the responders as well.

Yeah. Yeah. So I can just imagine when you're at a scene and you're getting back into the truck or whatever you call it. What do you call that?

The rig.

The rig. Okay, the rig. Yeah. These giant rigs. If you're talking to each other. And now we're getting into my field. Right. If you start talking to each other about the hardship of what you just went through, the weight of that burden starts to lift. I would wager it doesn't leave totally ever. In some ways. I mean, I think we all, as first responders or as healthcare providers, we understand that doing this work, we're gonna carry some stuff around with us all the way to our grave, and it's not a burden for us to do it. Frankly, for me, and I think you probably feel the same way. I do not feel burdened by it. I feel like you. I feel gratitude that I'm shouldering some weight in my community. Other people could shoulder it too, but I just decided to be one of the ones that Will shoulder this particular kind of weight. And I know you and I are very kindred spirits on that.

Yes, we are.

But talk about if you could, like, because I think there's a theme here of when you share your pain, it gets cut in half in a sense. Right. Like, it starts to go away. The trauma that we've experienced in life, by sharing it with another person, I think you're leaning toward, like, was hard to do this in the beginning. It wasn't the culture to talk about the difficulty of the work. But that changed. And you. So, yeah, whatever your experience there was.

Yeah, I like that the culture did shift and it became much more acceptable to. I even think way back when we might, you know, you could get a read. It might be quiet, and you could. You could. You could. Actually, it was palpable in terms of, you know, the. You might have some size, you know, responding back to quarters from a critical incident, or there would be some conversation. And of course, in dealing with that, you know, just trying to find the positive in some way, shape or form, even if it. Sometimes that's just not possible. But I. I think just immediately when you say, boy, that was. That was a tough call.

Yeah.

And just opening that up, as you noted, that that. That starts perhaps a little bit of the healing process for the responder.

So probably when you went through your training program and I barely had it in mind, there wasn't a lot of education on what we now call secondary stress trauma or vicarious traumatization, compassion fatigue. Those are the terms that are in the literature now. Back then, they would have referred to it. You and I are basically the same age. They would have called it burnout and attributed it to what I just described, which is I'm not necessarily being directly traumatized, but I'm being exposed to trauma. Which, by the way, one of the criteria for meeting a diagnosis for something like post traumatic stress disorder, acute stress disorder, is being exposed, having either seen it or heard about it of a loved one. So we're both in those camps. You would see it and hear about it, and I hear about it, and I've seen some things too. Right. But, yeah, that exposure. Yeah, I just see there's a way through it. And that was talking to each other. There's more conversation now about let's take care of each other. Let's. Let's prevent. We would have called it prevent burnout, but it's really more about let's take care of ourselves. Is that what. The conversation has shifted a little bit in the culture Yeah, I think it.

Is more of a. Of a. Again, for lack of a better expression, maybe a holistic view than having it be compartmentalized call by call, and then an overall wellness piece to it in offering that support. And, you know, surprisingly enough, some of the research on workplace culture, if your team members, especially in the first responder field, where they have the resources to do their job, they have a support structure in terms of how things are operationalized from protocol to procedures. Yeah, you can do all of those things and then have, you know, wellness programming built in. I think one of the greatest things I saw was the employee assistance programming.

Oh, yeah.

That the health systems provided and then different organizations could participate in. And whether it was personal, professional, combination thereof, which typically was the case, you know, but it was. It was such an opportunity for us or a great opportunity for us if we did see something that we had a path someone could. Could take to get, you know, talk to someone and, and many times that just, you know, they're. They're. They're a resource to provide details of other resources depending on, you know, where. Where that individual needs to and, you know, just having some feedback from over the years. Those can be phenomenal programs if they're utilized.

Yeah. And we certainly have those. I agree. We've seen those growing in my industry as well.

Yeah.

I want to come back to this idea, too. You were talking about gratitude, and it strikes me that's a very psychologically important component to bring into the work, because you don't bring gratitude to the work so that you're protected from it. But I think it does that. Right. Like, if you, like you're talking about going up to a call and you probably know over the radio what things might look like when you get there sometimes. Right. And you know what's coming. And yet I can just imagine, because I know you, but it's probably true of your colleagues, this feeling of gratitude. I'm glad somebody can respond to this. I feel like I'm in a privileged position to be able to respond to this and that going into that environment, it almost feels like the way you describe it is sacred. When you talk about going up to someone's bedside. Bedside is a very private place for people. A bedroom is a very private place for people. A home is a private place. We don't just let anybody into our homes, and yet they're not strangers. You're not a stranger. And for those of us who've had EMS respond to our homes, we're holding the door open for them. So they can get to the person inside we want them to get to fastest or whatever as quickly as possible. But that sense of gratitude, that's. Is that kind of the primary?

Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, there is. I especially as you get, you know, your experience and training and education, everything comes together and you are grateful that you could be there and be the one that can prove, you know, again, back to that word privilege. I mean that really is a privilege. Someone's time when they, they, they, they're in need to be that person.

Yeah.

And I never wanted to lose sight of that because you can get into certain points in your career as you get into that middle, you know, of a 25, 30 year career into that 12 to 15 year mark where I don't want to say autopilot, but I was constantly trying and challenging myself to be remember. To remember. To be grateful.

Yeah.

To remember that it's a privilege.

Yeah.

And I tried to share that with new people coming on board and would tell them that, you know, if you care about what you do, you care about the people that you're working with and you care about the community, you'll have a great career and don't ever lose sight of that. It's easy to get into the autopilot mode of a little bit of what we do and we certainly don't want to lose sight of again. Back to that. Being grateful and knowing that it's a privilege.

Well, when we come back for part two, I want to talk about your arc through leadership and the continued training you've been talking about because maybe you and maybe I have, I haven't really reflected on it, but you hit a lull in the middle of your career. But that would have been about the time you went back to college.

That's correct.

And so now you're nearly done with a PhD.

I'm close. You know that late's getting larger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very long tunnel.

I understand, I understand.

And you understand.

I understand. Yeah, I'm working on one of those myself. But you're. And I'm curious about like, you know, we know that one of the things that prevents burnout, frankly in the literature is to stay engaged professionally and grow your skills and stay engaged in your community. And it's very easy for folks like us who mid career especially. You're kind of established, you have your credentials, you're either good at your job and you're in it because of that, and you could rest on your laurels a little bit, but you decide to do something crazy like, you know what? I could sail this on out, get an early retirement out of the public system and just relax and go find some mai tais on a beach or whatever. He said. Now I'm going to go back to school. And you did.

Yes, I did.

And when we come back in our part two, you'll learn that Mark was in my classroom at one point and he has leapfrogged me through his education. But I'm trying to catch back up. It's not a competition.

Oh, no, no, no.

And now he's doing well. I'd love to hear how you characterize it, but you're a professor at a university now and you're teaching not just in a classroom, but a classroom in a very special place. I'm going to leave that as a cliffhanger for you guys to come back and listen in part two. So thanks for joining me today for this first part of our conversation. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of Headroom. Remember, if you need mental health assistance, you can always call or text 988. And if you're a current LCC student, free mental health counseling is available to you at the college. You can learn more at LCC.edu/Counseling. I want to thank our producers here at LCC Connect and encourage you to explore other amazing podcasts atLCCconnect.com thanks again for listening. Take care. And we'll see you next time in the Headroom.