Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Martin, welcome back. For those who missed your last episode with us, can you introduce

yourself again? Yeah, thanks for having me, Jessa. My name's Martin Lukacs. I'm a journalist,

author, and the managing editor of The Breach, an independent outlet, launched about three

years ago now. If any of you are listening and you don't know what he means by The Breach,

then you haven't really been listening because I was telling Martin before we started recording,

our show heavily relies on their content and their investigative reports to... beef up a

lot of our stories, especially our rants, because they get us so angry reading your stuff. And

you know, I was extra triggered by your most recent article about the Ontario Attorney General

Secret Committee that you're going to tell us all about. And you quickly reminded us, though,

that was intrinsically tied to another article that had us riled up a few months back. detailed

Project Resolute, which is a project by the Ontario Police Services Hate Crimes Unit that

targeted Palestinian solidarity activists. So what first put you on, Martin, to the fact

that there may be a secret committee in the Ontario Attorney General's office? Well, let

me first say that, yeah, I love being, I love providing fodder for rants. submission of the

breach. How was I put onto this? Well, we've been, as you said, we've been reporting on

the policing crackdown on Palestinian solidarity in Toronto, but also broadly across Canada.

I think Toronto is probably where, because the Palestinian solidarity mobilization has been

the strongest, the police reaction has also been the most severe and aggressive. And...

Maybe I should take a step back and talk a little bit about the Project Resolute investigation

and then talk about this secretive committee within the attorney general's office, which

I think very much works hand in hand. So the Project Resolute is a special operation by

the Toronto police in the aftermath of October 7th, which really handed over the investigation

and policing of all Middle East protest to the hate crimes unit, which from that starting

point was politically perverse, politically biased. The assumption that all Middle East

protests, namely solidarity protests with Palestinians in Gaza, somehow has an inherent connection

to hate crimes fundamentally tilted the orientation of the police. And we have seen over the past

several months, an incredible commitment of public resources, policing personnel drawn

from all different units of the Toronto police, focusing in on Palestinian solidarity with

a number of kind of egregious examples of overreach. Police have engaged in nighttime raids on activist

homes, a tactic usually reserved violent criminal offenses. Because you expect weapons to be

a possibility and so you want to surprise them. Precisely. Or folks might be destroying evidence.

But yeah, typically it's reserved for violent offenders. Yeah, it's called, the police terminology

is guns and drugs. And they have snatched people off the street. They have. engaged in trying

to cultivate informants, especially among newer activists to the movement. They have used trumped

up bogus hate crime charges. That's been a key element of what the Toronto police project

Resolute has done, which is to try to weaponize hate crime offenses, to taint and undermine

and impose more severe charges against people doing Palestinian solidarity. because hate

crime charges bring with them more severe consequences. Having these operations be led by the hate

crime unit has meant that there has been a natural, there has been a natural outgrowth of there

being the leaders of this policing operation. The added charges of hate crime also bring

with them the added public scrutiny and reinforcement of the damaging narrative that Palestinian

solidarity is in itself a hate crime. Precisely. We see politicians making that direct claim

so explicitly. So in probably the most prominent example of Project Resolute's operations was

the Indigo 11 case, in which quite a banal act of mischief, namely politically posturing Indigo

to protest the CEO Heather Reisman's support and funding for the Israeli army resulted in

these nighttime raids, incredible surveillance, interrogations, and then the police making

a very big deal about how they were pursuing hate-motivated offenses, which netted them

headlines in all the mainstream publications from the Toronto Star all the way to the Toronto

Sun on the

what these activists had done was anti-Semitic, racist, a hate crime, which is of course an

absurd allegation. One of the activists charged is Jewish herself. The indigo protests were

started by Jewish groups in part. So not only in terms of the consequences, but in terms

of the public narrative that they have been able to tell, it has been incredibly damaging.

And through reporting on On Project Resolute, I started to learn from some of the lawyers

who have been involved in defending some of these activists about the existence of a secretive,

very shadowy committee within the attorney general's ministry called the Hate Crime Working Group.

Okay, okay. Before we get the skinny on the secret committee, which sounds so nefarious.

especially the way you frame it. I'm curious what your first reaction... Well, you know

what, in all of this, anything is believable at this point. So, you know, if folks were

coming to me with stories of a secret committee, I would definitely have taken them seriously

as well. But I do want to just add a little bit more about the Hate Crimes Unit and Project

Resolute, if we may. It does shock me. You talked about their expanded mandate that... Because

the Hate Crimes Unit has existed, obviously, before October 7th. Yeah, since the mid-90s.

But a bulk of these changes came quite quickly, right? You're talking about the end of October

and early November, where they explicitly added to their mandate to monitor or whatever the

protests involving the Middle East, which is just a way to count. Like, they mean Palestine.

The fact that they made any effort to use more inclusive language in something that's clearly

so racist. to begin with is kind of funny to me. You might as well have just said Palestine,

or you can't say Palestine, I guess. Yeah, it's classic police bureaucraties. Yeah, you'd have

to acknowledge Palestine. So they're sitting there going, well, we can't say that. So let's

just say the Middle East. Then next time they start hooting and hollering about another state,

we've got this on paper, we're good. But they didn't just expand their mandate, right? The

funding for them expanded so much as well as... their force, like you're talking about a six

officer force expanded into 32. Yeah, so there was six members expanded to 32, which is a

500% increase. In November, 2023. Yes, November, 2023. We saw this play out in the Indigo case

where, we know from police sources that there were eight officers working full time on that

case. They were... canvassing in neighborhoods for webcam footage from people's homes. They,

you know, and the cops, the supply cops doing overtime. I mean, there's a huge, huge amount

of resources. And then the police raids that night of in late November involved 50 officers,

a canine unit. I mean, that's like probably just for the raids alone, an expenditure of

a million dollars. I was going to say, were you able to quantify what Project Resolute

has cost Toronto taxpayers? The latest from police is that As of June, it's $16 million,

but that does not include, and what should be included is the expense on the legal side in

terms of then trying to prosecute these cases, which is probably a dozen more millions of

dollars. So I would guess that the policing and legal costs are in the realm of $30 million.

And we know that there are a few, at least a few. better options for spending that money

than harassing, targeting, criminalizing peaceful protest. Yeah, and what the report revealed

was that these night raids hadn't just taken place in the Indigo case, which we all learned

about through the arrests back in November, but there were other instances, including in

the case of the Gardner Expressway protests, there was a group of activists who stopped

traffic there for... literally no more than five minutes. No one was harmed. Palestinian

Canadian family had their, in Mississauga had their home raided after 5 a.m. in January.

Apparently when I spoke to the family, the police started ringing and banging the door so hard

that the dad and mom's bed on the second floor literally started shaking. And so this family

that had come from. Ramallah in 2005 and in fact had their homes raided, you know, 20 years

ago, were an absolute shock and horror. And I remember speaking to the individual's mom

and she was like, my first assumption was has he killed someone? You know, like what has

my son done? And you know, police kept the door open. In the, you know, this was late January

when the weather was frigid while they sat the family down. Um, while they searched the home,

they basically turned his, his room and a few others upside down and, you know, confiscate

several of his possessions, carted out computers, cell phones, clothing. Um, it was pretty incredible

though. The mom in particular, Suha, who I spoke to, reminded me about the just incredible like

resistance, resilience, and also just like humor that Palestinians I have met in the West Bank

have. I remember she, one of the things that the police said they were searching for was

a black and white keffiyeh. And she was like, we're Palestinian, we have dozens of keffiyehs.

Like, do you need us to help you with that? I also have free Palestine posters, do you

want those too? Yeah, so, you know, they kept their. wits about them and their sense of humor,

despite the horror, the experience that they had to go through. Her son, who's an elementary

school teacher, had his name broadcast in the media, thanks to the cops. He teaches at a

local school in Mississauga. People there found out about it. He used to volunteer at the local

YMCA. CTV News was broadcasting his arrest. And so incredibly damaging to the to the family's

reputation. And interestingly, the Crown has now dropped those charges. And is in fact has

dropped many of the indigo charges as well. So it really feels like they, on one level,

the cops know that, you know, the night raids and other aspects of the operation won't stand

a chance when challenged on charter grounds. But they, I think are hoping that they can

get their moment in the media, get themselves these slanted headlines, and that does wreck

the damage that they're hoping to effect, and then damn the prospects of actually getting

these charges to stick. So in many ways, the media effect is what they are going for, which

just shows how cynical this whole enterprise from the police and certainly the government

officials who are defending and supporting. this is. Yeah, and it's designed to demoralize

as well the individuals and those who hear the stories and their comrades expecting. We talked

to Anna Littman and like her worst fear was that some of these tactics that they were using

would scare people into doing actions as simple as blocking the road for five minutes or taping

a poster to a glass wall or window, you know, when we're trying to get people to be able

to escalate beyond some of these... more passive actions. It's really hard to see the consequences

play out like this. And I also imagine, it's not a point that I've picked up on before,

but you mentioned it earlier of the attempts to turn informants, turn activists into informants.

And I imagine putting them in these precarious situations helps them leverage those possibilities.

Can you speak to what the attempts to recruit informants look like because the audience here

are mostly activists and organizers who are trying to strike that delicate balance of pulling

in as many people as possible and trusting folks that wanna do the work with keeping everybody

safe and anticipating police infiltration? Yeah, the one case I reported on in the piece was,

a newer activist to the movement named Cyrus Reynolds, who had been involved in some of

the protests on the Avenue Road overpass. And he was one of the individuals who was arrested

in the days after the Toronto police banned any protest on the overpass. And that was very

much part of the project. It was claimed by Project Resolutive, one of their claimed achievements.

And he was arrested and at the local... police station once he was released, he was approached

by a detective who basically asked him to come to a side room within the police station and

introduced himself as someone who works with the informant protection program and basically

made an offer to Cyrus that if he could feed the cops intel then... you know, maybe he could

lend him a hand, you know, by implication, perhaps get those charges dropped for that service.

And Cyrus is someone who, you know, I think works in construction and he's a tradesman.

He'd never been an activist before. And Palestine, watching what was unfolding in Gaza, had spurred

him to action for the first time in his life. And so it seemed to me that someone newer to

the movement would be a natural target. for the police to try to turn. And he was outraged

by the suggestion and- Thank you, Cyrus. Point blank refused. The cop added a little bit of

complicit sexism. He was like, at the very end, he was like, don't tell your wife about this.

There's lots of things I don't tell my wife about either. He clearly told someone. And

I think that kind of attempt to isolate someone is also a classic, you know, police tactic.

Cyrus's charges also were ultimately dropped because there's absolutely no charter grounds

for arresting someone for peaceful protests on an overpass sidewalk. So cops will always

be trying to infiltrate our movements and develop informants. And I think if we maintain openness,

transparency, even as we escalate towards civil disobedience and nonviolent direct action.

That is always the best way to operate in the face of any kinds of police efforts to infiltrate

our movements. We just have to assume that that's always the case. And I think it can't allow

us not to have faith in people's good intentions and entry into our movements, because then

it just insinuates all kind of paranoia and really damages our ability to have faith in

each other, which is... really the only thing we have up against money and power. Just to

speak to your earlier point, Kevin Walby, who's a really super smart criminal justice professor

who studies policing, had a great phrase that I hadn't heard before which was strategic incapacitation.

And it's a kind of academic term, but it comes from the literature studying policing and it

emerges in the post-Occupy moment to try to explain. the role of police in that moment,

but certainly in many other moments. And I think that's a really good explanation for what the

police and government intentions are with this kind of crackdown. That yes, precisely bogus

charges, these kinds of very chilling and dramatic and aggressive arrests are intended to try

to undermine people's motivation to become involved in movements, especially new people. But I

think ultimately it hasn't worked, which is what's... So great. I think you're right on

that, but what it does do is it definitely drains a lot of resources. Definitely. Right? Even

if folks are still as motivated and some of them are even saying like, fuck my bail conditions,

you know, like literally have not slowed down at all. But you know, we're having to contribute

a lot to community defense funds and lawyers having to donate their time constantly to keep

this rotation of activists, get them out. get their bail conditions cleared, try to get some

of these charges dropped. So how maddening to find out that the cops are getting pre and

post charge consultations and advice from the secret committee that we had hinted at. Yeah,

so at long last, we'll get to the, I've been calling it a secretive committee because it's

not entirely secret in the sense that The people who know about it are, as I heard about this

from some lawyers who told me, to their surprise, these are defense lawyers, to their surprise,

as they were trying to negotiate withdrawals for some of these, for some of the most spurious

and bogus charges with Crown prosecutors, they were finding out that there was this committee

within the Attorney General's ministry that was intervening. in an effort to prevent the

withdrawal of these charges, to encourage more severe charges from being applied. And so I

started to look into this committee. And I say secretive in the sense that there is like a

cookie crumb trail out there because this advisory committee, which is made up of about two dozen

Crown prosecutors, most active, some resigned. or retired, excuse me, basically serve officially

to advise police before they lay charges in any hate-related investigations. And the cookie

crumb trail I found because often they give presentations to police conferences and those

are the few times where their membership in this hate crime working group is... indicated.

But I, once I had a sense of this from lawyers, I started trying to contact the ministry of

the attorney general. And it was funny, this happens sometimes, you get an immediate response

from in this case, the communications person who said, Oh, well, yeah, you know, received,

we'll, we'll look in, we'll look into this for you and get back to you. And then radio silence.

And then I left phone messages and followed up with emails over several months. And zero.

And so I started calling the Crown prosecutors themselves who I had an inkling that they might

be part of this group. And they would freak out when I when I got them on the phone and

be like, I can't talk to you. Like call the media spokespeople. I said, I've already done

that. Can you just confirm for me whether you are part of this group or not? And what is

the basic mandate? And they're like, I can't do that. And then I and then I really lucked

out. I'd started piecing

One of the assistant deputy ministers had written a memo to police service boards across the

country about the hate crime working group. And the Windsor police board, thank you so

much, accidentally, seems like accidentally just posted it. That's the first time ever

we've thanked a police board. Yes. Posted it on their website as part of a cache of documents.

Oopsies. oopsies, and that had the full list finally of all the members and it had an outlining

of the responsibilities of this hate crime working group. When did they do this? So it was formed

in it was formed in 2019. Yeah, but when did you get that release? Oh, that was a few weeks

ago. So I've been you must have been so giddy. I was so happy. I can imagine Martin. And I

was like, yeah, sometimes you get these sometimes you catch these lucky breaks from cops from

cops. Well, for the police service board. So who knows? Maybe their local city, local city

councilors. So we, that confirmed the people who were in the group and, you know, we were

doing research about the, the people involved. And it was interesting to discover that, um,

some of them had very clearly articulated views about Israel and Palestine. Um, notable biases,

one person in particular, or this to one of the chair has described herself of this. advisory

committee has described herself as being committed and loving the state of Israel. Another one

through some open source research I discovered has signed siege petitions, has given presentations

about using the law to very pro-Israeli legal groups that are trying to very aggressively

defend what Israel is doing in Gaza. I want to give the title for that because I feel like

it could be the title of this episode even. What did she call it? Leveraging criminal law

for critical action. That's the quiet part out loud. Yeah. Critical action is kind of couch.

It's kind of vague. But like, yeah, leveraging. It's a great point. Leveraging law, instrumentalizing

the law. The law is not, you know, in the in the liberal imagination, not supposed to be

leveraged. It's just supposed to be accorded to, you know. adhere to, not leveraged and

instrumentalized or weaponized. So that was, yeah, quite fascinating. She also let loose

on her LinkedIn post a few times and called a Canadian pro-Palestinian activist a terrorist.

The individual question is like, actually has noxious views, like they've said anti-Semitic

things and they've been condemned by many Palestinian solidarity groups, but. Persona non grata at

most actions. Yes. Yes, but definitely has not been charged with any terrorism related offenses.

So it was very revealing of the biases and outlook of one of these people who is supposed to be

advising the police on what is and isn't a hate crime. And that was that an active Crown prosecutor.

She resigned. She retired like about a year ago. And so yeah, so this committee far from

merely providing advice about what charges should be laid, was actually taking quite an active

interventionist role in trying to shape how police operate, not just giving them backing,

but encouraging a more aggressive crackdown on activists. In investigating them, I also

learned about a previous instance when they had been involved well before October 7th,

this dates back to 2021, when a Hamilton-based rabbi and activist with the IJV, David Mevisar,

had been arrested and charged for having just splashed some soluble red paint on the steps

of the Israeli consulate in protest of, at that time, Israel bombing Gaza and killing, I think,

260 people, flattening several residential buildings. And he had been charged with mischief. I spoke

to the lawyer who defended him and he recalls how, you know, in cases like this, like it's

barely a criminal charge, what he did. In these kinds of situations, it's almost automatic

that the Crown will accept community service or just withdraw the charges. Or sometimes

pay for the cost of repair. Exactly, or a donation to some kind of community charity. But in this

case, the lawyer was stunned when what actually happened was two very high profile, high ranking,

Crown prosecutors were deployed to work on the case. Both of them members of the hate crime

working group. Deployed. That sounds ominous. And one of them was the person in question

I was telling you about who has, you know, talked about leveraging the law with pro-Israeli groups.

Rochelle Derenfeld. Derenfeld? That's right. And they similarly, as in all these other cases

we've seen recently, you know, were pushing for more severe charges, were dragged out the

case for months and months and months. There was one other fascinating revelation that emerged

from this, which I think tells you a lot about the kind of political outlook and connections

of this group, which was, you know, in these situations, often police will you know, get

a victim statement from the victims, in this case, quote unquote, victims, the, you know,

the, the Israeli consulate staff, um, those stairs and yes, the stairs, soluble paint,

um, washed off by within an hour, um, by a rabbi of all people, a real menace, um, to Jewish

people. So, so what was striking is, and this came out through the the court proceedings

that the police hadn't actually been able to get through to the Israeli consulate staff.

But who had been able to get through to the consulate staff and was able to provide a statement

from them was these Crown prosecutors, these members of the hate crime working group. So

they had greater access to the Israeli consulate, representatives of the Israeli government than

the police themselves. Which to my mind... you know, shows that the kind of evident interlocks

that exists between essentially government officials, crown prosecutors in this case, and the Israeli

interests within the, within the Canadian state. Yeah. And I think, I think that is a larger

takeaway from the story to me, which is that I think this moment of an unfolding genocide

in Gaza and an incredible upsurge of mobilization. solidarity mobilizations in the West has, I

think, laid bare a lot of the latent pro-Israeli biases that exist in a lot of our institutions.

And they've had to, in order to defend the indefensible, a lot of these networks and interests within

institutions like the, in this case, the Attorney General's ministry have had to be activated

in a way where we have become aware of their operations in a way that we were not before.

I was going to say they're not latent anymore. That's the silver lining of all this, that

we're becoming far more conscious of these entrenched interests. And now the next task is to unveil

them and shine a spotlight and start to campaign against their ability to wreck the kind of

damage they're trying to wreck. Yeah, I just want to like, I can see people because I'm

feeling it when you hear just how brazen it's become. right, how open and you know when Martin

talks about them being activated and it was such gall you know that as though that might

be an assertive thing, a positive thing on their behalf right, that they just do this kind of

out in the open more so or you know it's been forced out in the open but there's been space

made for it but at the same time the reason it was always sort of hidden is because it's

so illegitimate and any kind of oppressive system like that. hurdle is taking the mask off because

once fully exposed as we are seeing now even with the concept of Zionism being fully understood

and the consequences of it, it's quickly becoming understood and then railed against, right?

Because once you fully understand something that oppressive or corrupt, you know, in the

case of the police relations with this lobby group. It's, it can't hold forever. It can't

hold out in the open like that forever. I do think the brazenness, for instance, of this

advisory committee, and certainly of lobby groups like CJE and others, is a sign of weakness.

It's not a sign of strength. I think they are, you know, in trying to defend the indefensible,

are finding themselves having to make... ever more contorted arguments, ever more baseless

allegations, or, you know, in the case of this advisory committee, yeah, put their finger

on the scale in a way they haven't had to in the past in order to do as much as possible

to do apologetics for the Israeli state. And so I think that, yeah, that is positive. Of

course, the consequences are positive, but it's positive that we now can see it. It doesn't

always feel that way though, you know what I mean? Where you're just like, how can they

be getting away with this? Like, how can you be so bold? The reason there's a reason that

they're, you know, the ministry didn't get back to us and there's a re you know, operating

in the shadows means that they can operate unaccountably, you know, my hope was that in reporting the

contours of this group's operations, it would mean that outlets like this Toronto star maybe

would follow up. And the government wouldn't be able not to return their phone calls in

the way that they don't return the phone calls of a small independent media outlet. That hasn't

happened and that probably speaks to the biases operative in places like the Toronto Star.

But at least we have lit the first match and hopefully now others eventually can start to

ask questions. Maybe it will take politicians also. demanding some answers about the operation

of this group, which is really about the politicization of the law, this overt leveraging of the law

to silence, smear, delegitimize and undermine the struggle for Palestinian rights. But now

that it's more in the open, we can call it out in a way we couldn't before. The danger is

though, if we don't, if it becomes normalized. despite his exposure, then we can only count

on this to repeat itself over and over again with every other movement that challenges the

status quo. Because although you've done an excellent job of demonstrating the ties between

Zionists and supporters of the Israeli lobby to the actions of the Toronto police and the

secretive committee, attorney general's office, Its application will extend beyond that, but

also that's what's giving a lot of folks in powerful places who perhaps could care less

about Israel one way or the other. Capitalists just, you know, in it for capital. This is

such an immense tool to be able to increase police powers and just the disregard for The

consequences of law, it means like how many times can you charge people and have them dropped

where there's no consequences? Because I imagine there's some of these activists, I hope, that

are launching legal battles, perhaps against wrongful arrest, wrongful prosecution. Because

some of them are just so blatantly obvious, especially when I think of the case of Skye

Johnson, where all of these charges were thrown at her for literally putting up couple sheets

of paper with scotch tape on a Starbucks and or the examples you gave. Oh, I'm not familiar

with this case. Yeah, that's in the Avenue Road area as well. It kind of what started police

attention in that area because they started to mobilize around this one particular activist

that was just like picked on and made an example of. So now if you Google her name, we had her

on the show, but. If you Google her name, unfortunately, it's just all these headlines about being a

terrorist supporter and being accused of a hate crime. And, you know, when you get her story,

the bail conditions imposed on her for taping up paper. And this was very, very early on

in the growth of the Palestinian solidarity movement. Like, not that I hate saying, you

know, using October 7th always as a measure, but... were kind of forced to sometimes. But

yeah, it's incredible the stories that we probably don't even know about. Like if I'm telling

you about Skye Johnson, how many other stories that, you know, they just didn't wanna tell

them or they turned informant, you know, or, you know, it's just too much for them and they've

stepped away from the movement now forever because it's just too much. Like some of these consequences,

even if your charges are dropped, like their lives have been turned upside down. So we clearly

have to get more exposure on this particular committee here in Ontario. Have there been

groups that are picking up on mobilizing around it that folks can? Not as far as I know. I

do, you know, as you know very well, there is a lot of legal support work happening and it

seems to me, yeah, defending some of these individuals, falsely accused of hate-motivated crimes. seems

to be the priority. It's hard to wrap your head around, you know? I don't know if it's necessarily

a thing that can be mobilized well around, you know? You mean it's like hard to put your finger

on like one demand or one individual to resign or anything like that, like how do you, it's

systemic. Yeah, exactly, yeah, that's part of it as well, you know? Like, do we want, are

we calling for them to democratize the hate crime working group, you know? No, probably

not. We could probably be better without the entity at all. I want to interject here because

I have an important point in my note that I didn't get to. And that is for folks out there

need to understand the support that things like hate crime units have. And hate crimes are

awful. I'm not sitting here saying we just need to let that exist in our society. But obviously,

you might already know I come from an abolitionist point of view to begin with, but the NDP, not

even just in its policy book or in its convention, but in their platform for the last election,

they had promises to increase funding for hate crime units. And you rightfully point out in

your original article about Project Resolute that Mayor Olivia Chow fully supported this

focus on safety and policing in response to what was happening in Palestine and the police

board has done nothing but facilitate all of this. So if you're looking to mobilize around

it in any way it could be at least to demand that your

the solution of hate crime units as a means to make our community safer. And I like this

goes beyond defunding the police, but you know, the, the NDP would never say they're pro police,

but they do, they do advocate for using these kinds of tools and to increase their funding

to the levels that we're seeing now that are then being utilized against our own movements.

So yes, the normalization of that is out of stock. Yeah. And I, you know, I agree. And

I do think that the weaponization of the hate crimes framework also raises some important,

deeper philosophical and political questions about problems inherent to the hate crimes

framework to start with. So, I mean, the hate crime framework individualizes the nature of

reactionary violence. It makes these things out to be that the culprit of such reactionary

violence is not reactionary ideologies, reactionary forces, reactionary political parties, it's

sole individuals. And it also lends itself to policing solutions. And ultimately, hate that

is an outgrowth of white supremacy, racism, all the normal operations of capitalism are

not best. attacked as hate crimes, but as those ideologies that we should be naming and fighting

politically. So police aren't going to be the solution to hate crimes. So I didn't realize

that the NDP had included that in their platform. So that's a good one for those working to shift

those kinds of policies. That would be an important one. And I think, yeah, I think now, over the

last few months... we've seen the in probably the most brazen and clear-cut ways how the

hate crime framework is so easily weaponizable against a marginalized subjugated population

like Palestinians and their allies. I mean, I think as one person I spoke to, I didn't

put this in the piece, but it's like, because it felt like too, it felt so obvious, but also

beyond the bounds of the piece, philosophically. I mean, if the police were genuinely interested

in pursuing hate crimes, then they would be, you know, laying siege to the government consulates

and government institutions, including Canada's, including the U.S. Embassy, including the rebel

news truck, Israeli consulate on this on this issue, you know, and obviously, like, that's

not the world we live in. That's not the function of police. But if we take hate crimes at their

face value, then that's what it would mean. But obviously, we live in a in the real world

where police are. servants and of capital of capitalist of their capitalist masters. So

that's not how things roll out. We kind of did the same with the Emergencies Act too. I feel

there was support for it because of the horribleness that became the Ottawa convoy. Right. Like

the well support on some sides. I think it was mistaken. Yeah. There were some proponent but

generally the NDP and some folks who just saw no other solution, right? Community-based solution

to the problem looked to police as that solution. And we often step into, when I say we, I don't

mean me and Mark. Yes. I mean, we collectively as the left, and I know we're not a homogenous

group either, but you know, it just exists that current of. not sometimes recognizing these

mechanisms because in the moment they may benefit us or at least curtail our perceived opponents.

Yes. And so we, yeah, we muddy those waters or we normalize things that really we should

be challenging, but they're just so difficult. Like it's really hard to have that hate crimes

unit shouldn't really be a thing conversation when folks. are experiencing hate crimes, especially

when you talk to, well, Muslim people will tell you every day of their lives here, visibly

Muslim people experience what you could call hate crimes all the time. And there's got to

be a solution to that. So it's such a deep conversation that people aren't making time for. So the

easy answer is, okay, we won't fund police, but we will fund these hate crime units because

that's really bad. That's something we can't just pretend doesn't happen. No, and Jewish,

I mean, Jewish communities are subject to hate crimes as well. Yeah, I think we have to think

hard about how our safety is not to be found in the police. And I mean, this the same principle

extends to the discussion about terrorist labels as well. You know, there are currents in the

left who want, for instance, like organizations like the JDL to be labeled as terrorists in

the same way that Palestinian organizations have been labeled as terrorist entities. But

this is an inherently reactionary framework that will only shore up the ability of the

government to use it against marginalized communities, left-wing organizations. And so it's a real

mistake, I think, to play into that. And the NDP certainly does that on that front as well.

We've seen this happening on the foreign interference debate as well, and it's playing out now, yeah,

I think, in the hate crime debate as well. To the extent that there is a debate, I don't

think it's like a particularly live debate yet, but it should it should happen. I think I think

it's going to take more journalism, including from the mainstream outlets, to elevate it

to an issue of, you know, public debate. Yeah, like pressing public debate. I wonder through

all of the interviews that you've done on this and all the research, whether you could offer

any advice to organizers and activists who are. in this environment now, like maybe they haven't

experienced it, that heavy hand just yet. But you know, especially from maybe your discussions

with lawyers and what has been working for them in terms of getting charges dropped or pushing

back against this influence that's coming from the Attorney General's office. I mean, I would

just say keep doing what you're doing. And yeah, as someone who has been... on and off involved

in Palestinian solidarity for 20 years now. Like it has been incredible to witness the

flourishing of this movement, the entry of people who have never been active before in any kind

of political organizing. And it seems clear to me that the attempts to chill the movement

haven't worked. Like, yes, it's true, as you mentioned earlier, that many of the... you

know, day-to-day organizers are now wrapped up in doing legal solidarity and fundraising.

I mean, that to some degree is inevitable, I think, in our work. Um, but I, it has been

moving to me that in his latest incarnation, the, the student encampments, people, people's

appetite and, um, courage has grown by leaps and bounds rather than diminishing in the face

of, you know, police threats, police brutality and, uh, the long arm of the law. Yeah, I think

I'm inspired. And I think the fact that the charges are being dropped is a very good sign

that the police overreached, probably in a way that they understood and that we're all on

the right path. And the more we can broaden the movement, bring newcomers in, the stronger

we'll be in fighting this really pitched battle right now over defining the terms of the debate

that I think will play out now in the coming years. And I think our hand, the hand of those

committed to Palestinian liberation and dignity for all who live in the Middle East has been

strengthened, despite the brazen and aggressive and much better funded efforts of our opponents.

So I'm quite heartened about where we're at, just the horrendous toll that unfold in Gaza.

I think for those of us who have a long-term view, which we have to, unfortunately, because

these struggles for decolonization take decades and generations, I think I'm very hopeful,

despite everything, about where the movement is at right now. And I think the work that

everyone is doing and the sacrifices people are making will pay off. They will. Thank you,

Martin. Again, I very much appreciate your role and your team's role at the breach in giving

us ammunition in our fight. Quite often we sense that these things are happening, they feel

unfair, it feels heavy handed, you know it's corrupt, especially some of the charges we've

talked about like unlawful assembly while masked as added charges, and you just, you could see

that it was

it is and we know what its end purpose is. We know where it's coming from. We've got some

names and that's a fucking start to eat away at that part. And we it's also a flag to other

urban centers that are likely going to be experiencing this kind of interference as well. Right? Perhaps

you under covered something in Ontario. But I can't imagine that this is not replicated

elsewhere to some level. So, you know, exposing it here starts that process. And I imagine

it's very validating for some of the people who have been through it, maybe even saw it,

but couldn't get anybody to listen to them to kind of uncover it all and show it to them

and be like, you're not, you're not imagining this. This is happening. This is a lot more

coming down on you than you deserved. Yeah. That's important for our movement that there's

journalists out there doing that work to essentially protect the activists in the long run so that

we can do what we gotta do. So thank you. Thank you, Martin, also for taking the time and coming

on Blueprints. We very much appreciate it. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints

of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our

show, Santiago Helu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated

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