[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss choice.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: Hello.

[00:00:23] Anna Toonk: Hello?

[00:00:24] Nina Endrst: Are you there?

[00:00:26] Anna Toonk: Are you there? I was really happy that this week you made a, are you there, god? It's me. Margaret joke.

[00:00:34] Nina Endrst: Thank you. Thank you for seeing me in that because you know, the younger kids, not that I've talked to any of them really, but they wouldn't understand.

[00:00:43] Anna Toonk: Allegedly not that I consult with the youth, but allegedly they don't know.

[00:00:48] Nina Endrst: I don't know about.

[00:00:50] Anna Toonk: Uh, and I feel like I make that joke to myself all the time when I'm trying to figure yeah. I'll be like,

[00:01:00] Nina Endrst: Oh my God, I never not something I go to. I don't know why it's so funny that you do that too. What's some of our other weird things that we found out that our similarities we have, we have some.

[00:01:14] Anna Toonk: We have weird overlap of stuff that, you know, I think it's kind of funny when, you know, I think it's such a sign of like, I think it's like funny in two ways of like, when people are like, oh my God, you like water, I love water.

[00:01:29] And you're like, yeah. It's like, life-sustaining, we're all pretty into it. You know, which is not true. I know tons of people who are like, I don't drink water and I'm like, I don't, I'm worried about you. But then I also think it can be really funny. I was like dating this dude once and he was like taking apples to work.

[00:01:45] And I was like, you like apples, I love apples. And I was like, we all do it. It's such a way of connecting. We like pathway to connection that it cracks you shoes. I love shoes. You will blankets like blankets. You know, I feel so close to you right now, but we should get married. I do think it can be. We've you and I, of course, I can't remember any of them right now, but you and I have had so many of those moments where it's like, oh, you're into that really random thing.

[00:02:17] Nina Endrst: Or they're random, they're better than water and shoes. We've had less universal ones than yet. Then, then that I would say not that there's anything wrong with...

[00:02:29] Anna Toonk: no, we hope all of you also like water and shoots.

[00:02:35] Hope we share that with everyone. Listening.

[00:02:38] Nina Endrst: I want safety and you know, you to be replenished and I, it, so we're not talking about any of that weird shit today. We're actually talking about choice. I'm I see.

[00:02:53] Anna Toonk: I'm so stoked. I'm so excited for so many reasons to talk about it. I would say it's something I feel pretty passionately about, but also it's especially relevant for us. I feel almost, I feel like giddy that I'm like, girl, you just need to relax. There's no urgency or literally recording a podcast. Relax, because I'm so excited to talk about this today.

[00:03:18] Nina Endrst: I agree. I'm I have so much to say and also want to use. It to be grounded and like in my body, when I say it, because I'm also excited and it feels, we I'm sure many of you know this by now, or if you don't.

[00:03:35] And I recorded our last week, last week, whatever

[00:03:40] Anna Toonk: last

[00:03:40] Nina Endrst: year. Yeah, a podcast about avoidance, and then we made a very big choice. So we've been laughing that this kind of, what we've mapped out for our topics is like, Witchery, we're like, is this, was this a spell? Can you just

[00:04:00] Anna Toonk: cast a spell on ourselves? We didn't know.

[00:04:03] And then. I feel like after we had made some big decisions, I kept texting Nina. Like, I mean, I feel like my love of being a little bit of a creep, just, you know, trickles into all aspects of my life. And I was like, screenshotting our record schedule and be like, look at this shit. Like, are we doing these mother fuckers?

[00:04:27] Did we call in for. Oh, I was like, oh, and it assembled by, oh, you need to do all this. And then it was like, why don't we just like, completely change what we're doing? Yeah. Which, I mean, I think that that is a lot of it. I mean, I think we talk a lot about these things. We talk about. Setting intention. And we talk a lot about like, you know, being present and living your life and doing all these things.

[00:04:51] And we didn't know we were due for a fresh lesson and like putting your money where your mouth is while

[00:05:00] Nina Endrst: since I've actually done it right to that

[00:05:03] Anna Toonk: level. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. So what we're talking about are talking around. Uh, do we want to get into that now? Or should I do the definition? And then we get into that definition and then

[00:05:15] Nina Endrst: we'll yeah,

[00:05:17] Anna Toonk: I hate when people are vague for too long, like we're going to let you in, and it's all old news at this point, but listening to this, you might forget that and be like, what's this, what are these bitches talking about?

[00:05:28] And it's like, don't worry. We're going to tell you in a second and you probably already know we're going to be like, yeah, we're just, we'll be okay. You'll be fine. Well, I'll be fine. Um, Noun and act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities, the choice between good and evil.

[00:05:48] They just always go for the most intense example, the

[00:05:53] Nina Endrst: devil and the angel,

[00:05:54] Anna Toonk: really for real, um, adjective, especially of food, a very good quality. He picks some choice early plums. I don't know why.

[00:06:07] Gabby of words, phrases or language rude and abusive. He had a few choice words at his command. And then I was like, what is the psychological, what is the psychology I Googled? What is the psychology of choice? And from psychology today? Interesting when asked who wouldn't prefer to choose from a list of five different items over a list of only two intuitively people feel that more options they have the greater their choice.

[00:06:41] Uh, finding the choice that will perfectly satisfy their needs, but this intuitive assumption turns out to be an illusion. The more options we have, the less likely we are to make a decision at all when asked. Oh yeah. And then apparently I just pasted it twice, but I love that we. The more options we have, the less likely we are to make a decision at all.

[00:07:05] And haven't, we had a fresh reminder in that, but also I was, I

[00:07:11] Nina Endrst: was just talking to a client about this who is struggling to make a choice. And I'm like, how long have you been hemming and hawing over this specific thing and said, Months. I'm like, right. You get further and further away from your intuition from the lake.

[00:07:30] This is, this is where I need to go. And this is where I don't want to go. The more you, the more options you give yourself, or the more you try to maneuver around the choice, you actually know. You need to make. I mean, and sometimes that's just, it's just unrealistic, right? If you want to get a divorce, you're not like, well, tomorrow's the day, right?

[00:07:50] Like, of course you're, you're going to weigh options and you're going, things have different, you know, I'm varying degrees of intensity. And, but I just think that's definition is so interesting because I've been thinking a lot about.

[00:08:02] Anna Toonk: I agree. And I'm someone who can know exactly what I want when I go to the drug store.

[00:08:07] But like, I'm still gonna like look at the whole aisle. Cause I'm like, I don't know, maybe something new or never go to the drugs have gotten older. I'm like trust, you know, like you, you know what you like? And I learned a lot about that through taro, to be honest. And like, I remember when I was really trying to connect to the energy of the two swords and.

[00:08:29] I was really hung up on our blindfold, you know, and I actually really misunderstood it, I think at first, when I was learning Terrell. And then when I realized, like it's not so much that, so the two of sorts for those who don't retain. Is a lot about needing to make a decision it's about needing to find balance in the writer weight.

[00:08:51] She is often shown blindfolded with these two cross swords. And so a lot of people think it's like, you don't have enough info. You don't have the information you need. Dah, dah, dah, dah, which absolutely can be a factor in the two assaults. I have found nine times out of 10, how it plays out for clients.

[00:09:09] And for me, my relationship with it is that you're looking for more information and not trusting the information you have with it, that it is like you're looking for the magical third solution. If you're like, should I bring. Or should I stay, you're looking for the option where like, but what if they turn into a completely different person and I can stay with that person.

[00:09:31] And it's like, yeah. Okay, sure. That's I guess technically currently on the table, but exactly. What is the likelihood of that happening? Like what is, what would that mean? You know, like, are you even someone who could communicate to that person? I need you to be someone else, you know, like there's a lot of factors at play there.

[00:09:50] And so. I really realized like the two of swords of so often throughout blocking everything now and coming into balance to reconnect with your intuition in order to make the decision. You

[00:10:02] Nina Endrst: know, what's interesting. I love that. I don't think I've ever read it that way. And I really enjoy that situation that you just gave to me, that little, the little nugget, I read it a lot as becoming more comfortable in like the liminal space when you don't have.

[00:10:21] All of the information or you don't know which way to go, or what have you, or you feel like you're blinded by something and you can't, you know, take it all in, take other options in whatever. But what I think is interesting about choice and the two of swords is it's why are we so uncomfortable as human beings being in this transitional space where we don't have.

[00:10:49] Everything mapped out for the choice we are going to make potentially

[00:11:02] Anna Toonk: Yeah. That's a big question. I mean, I think something that's interesting. God, if I did, I feel like I'd be living a different life. I feel like so often was something. I'm pretty sure it was in 78 degrees of wisdom. Rachel Pollock's book about taro. She was talking, I think in regards to the magician actually was saying how often we want to keep things, ideas, because.

[00:11:32] Like, we want them to remain possibilities that people get so freaked out about like really choosing something, you know, because then we have to also reckon with it not being perfect. Like often when you choose something it's it becomes real. And it removes an aspect. I think a fantasy. And I think we all like.

[00:11:55] I think all of us as human beings really like illusion, like as much as you can say, like I'm real. I want the, all of a sudden I'm basically singing JLo's I'm real. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I didn't even get that far into it. And I was like, it's too close to you're doing a J-Lo impression. And that was not the intention of that.

[00:12:13] But I think all of us can be like, I want truth. I want honesty. I use spirituality and these tools to like, help me find the truth of myself and the truth of the world or whatever. And we still love illusion. You know, we still, I mean, like, look at what some of the most popular TV in America is like the bachelor, like, does that really about love and marriage?

[00:12:31] I don't think so. You know? And it's like, why do we like that? And I think it's because we want to see some of these, I think, models of how things should be to then try to figure it out. Like, it feels almost like a shortcut and like, I don't think we ever really get shortcuts. I think we do have to keep showing up and stumbling through our lives.

[00:12:52] Like. Hate it. And we all feel like if you are stumbling through it and kind of like making it up as you go along that that means you're a mess. And I actually just thinks it means you're transparent. You know? Like I actually think you're just being honest and like, that's something I've embraced lately when people are like, so what if or dah, dah, dah, or have you thought about, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know.

[00:13:14] I dunno, like, and it's weird to see how much of that bothers me then I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I

[00:13:22] Nina Endrst: don't have an answer for that. Yeah.

[00:13:26] Anna Toonk: I'm just being honest. Like at this point, I don't know. I'm trying stuff. I don't know. But how much

[00:13:32] Nina Endrst: freedom when you, when you, and I say that a lot to each other in text messages, or like, and it's not because we don't trust ourselves.

[00:13:40] I mean, I'll speak for you just because I will and this moment, but it's it's we often are like, oh, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, but I don't know, but what are we, but what, who knows, right? Yeah. There are certain points in our lives where we make a choice that, that we don't have data on, you know, We don't have data.

[00:13:59] We're like, I don't know where this leads. I don't know where this road goes, but even if you think you do like, okay, I'm going to date a man and marry him and have a child. And you still don't, those choices still don't guarantee anything. It's it's still. Going to be fucked up in some way. And I don't even necessarily mean in a bad way or negative.

[00:14:26] It's just things are going to be rearranged. And if we become disoriented every time, something doesn't go to plan, it just causes so much suffering. You know, where if we keep just making. The next best choice for ourselves or, uh, or, or a choice that feels healthy in the moment. I think we're closer to peace then of these big choices I'm going to make.

[00:14:51] And then I'm going to plan my entire life around them. And if I don't like them anymore, I'm still going to cling on to them because I've made that choice. I find so many people, you know, and I was the same way. I think it's very human to attach to. These kind of contracts we've made with ourselves about choices we've made and be like, well, that's just who I am.

[00:15:14] Those are the kinds of choices I make. And there's so much freedom when we, when we invite ourselves into something different.

[00:15:22] Anna Toonk: I wonder, I agree with that. And I think like we also forget that, like we've made it all up. Like, is it just as much as you decided, like I'm going to marry this person, I'm going to have this child with that, or I'm going to have children with it.

[00:15:36] Like, this is the choice I've made. Like you made that up. You can make something else up, you know, like you can go, I think I've changed as a person, or I see, like, I think a lot of it is we forget to like check in and to also ask ourselves what we want. And I think that. That's sometimes what people resist.

[00:15:55] They're like, well, what am I choosing? Or why am I choosing or whatever? And it's like hard sometimes when. I don't know why you are, you know, and I think you and I are, we sometimes don't know like the science of it or the data or have that, but it's like, we know how we want to feel and we know kind of how.

[00:16:17] I never know science or data, but I think that that's, what's fascinating. Like you're like, I don't care what other people say. Like, I don't want it. And I'm like, whoa, what is that? Like, or radical, you know? Whereas I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, but the people like, you know, I, like, I think that's something I've been looking at.

[00:16:38] And I think things came to a head for us about, you know, sold, uh, our website, like. What are we doing? You know, I think we kind of were like, we're having all these people tell us, like, you know, for the success you want or the things you want or whatever, like you need to do this, you need to do that. You need to hire this kind of person.

[00:16:59] You need to get this, you know, it's going to cost a lot of money. Like you're going to have to be patient for many, many years. And we were just sort of like, Yeah. And like for what, you know, like what's the angle and not to say that we don't want to be successful or we don't want to create communities or, you know, like there, there are, there are true themes we want, but I think we realized we don't want them as, maybe as.

[00:17:28] But it'll list quickly as the model exists now for success, maybe by like, kind of society's terms, you know, that I think we sort of. Not so much like Kara not to say we don't care about money or whatever. Like we have bills just like anyone else and all of that. But like, we're like, we want to really enjoy what we're doing.

[00:17:48] Like, we don't want to do a bunch of stuff just because someone says you have to do this, so you maybe get this or this person maybe pays attention or dah, dah, dah, dah. We were, I think we just felt a lot of like, Ooh. Yeah. Care about a lot of this and we don't want to do a lot of it like that. I think a lot of the game playing, I think that can come with a more capitalist model of success or something I think maybe was helpful for us to be like, In decision-making of like, kind of going, what do we actually want?

[00:18:21] You know, like, which was helpful. And, and we aligned on a lot of it. If you and I had an aligned, obviously we would be having a very different conversation. I

[00:18:30] Nina Endrst: know it's probably not on

[00:18:32] Anna Toonk: a podcast. Probably not probably

[00:18:35] Nina Endrst: I'm breakup, but I like to think about choice, especially in this context, in an relationship to privilege.

[00:18:44] And I. True for me, I'm like, okay, I've been born into this life as, you know, a white chick with a decent amount of opportunities. Like, what am I doing with it? You know? And I really felt passionately about soul when I started it. And what's weird is it got me through a lot of like, pandemic. Like I didn't feel.

[00:19:12] A lot of pandemic blues, because I was really focused on kind of cocooning and I was having fun and I was creating it. And then I met you and we partnered and it just gave me like a lot of. Kind of creative juice and that was exciting to me, but when it, literally, we finished the branding for the site and I was like, it's beautiful.

[00:19:34] It's amazing. And then I slowly, in the next couple of months, I was like, why is this giving me so much anxiety? Or why am I feeling so much anxiety around this? And I kept asking myself questions and it was really, really bothering me. And I was keeping it mostly inside. I didn't really have the words for it yet.

[00:19:53] And. Like the week before you said that to me, maybe even a few days, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this, like the way it needs to be done because every time I got to reading about it, it would be like, this is going to be. A multimillion dollar business. And I was like, cool, but is it,

[00:20:15] Anna Toonk: but when

[00:20:17] Nina Endrst: I was like, that's great.

[00:20:18] But even if someone was like, here's 1 million members and $5 million and blah, blah, blah, whatever, I still, as to your point, like, I didn't want, I w I wasn't enjoying it anymore. Parts of it I'm really enjoying the parts that were carrying over, but it just, it was giving me like, Just not a great feeling.

[00:20:42] So when you said that I've literally felt my whole body just relaxed. And I was like, oh my God. And I knew I could make that choice, but knowing that you can also make the choice with

[00:20:53] Anna Toonk: your

[00:20:54] Nina Endrst: partner, whatever that looks like. Right. For us, it was a business for my husband and I. It's like, we want it, we're leaving our town that we're currently in and probably like a year and a half or two max, but we both were like, you know what?

[00:21:07] We don't want to be here anymore. Like, it's cool. And it's funky. And it's like all the rage right now, but like, we're just ready to move on and making that choice and not being afraid to voice what you actually feel inside is so liberating because even if the person on the other end is like, I.

[00:21:27] Something different.

[00:21:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah.

[00:21:29] Nina Endrst: At least, you know, At least you can be honest and truthful and isn't that like ideal

[00:21:44] Anna Toonk: I mean, isn't that the goal like of life of relationships, you know, like. It's interesting because so Nina and I are closing this whole unity. We are pivoting to focusing on the podcast and we hope you all will continue to support that. Cause your support is now more important than now. So, if you've been thinking about writing a review now would be the time like for our emotional health, no pressure.

[00:22:10] Just our brains rely on it. Fine, you guys. But I think we wanted to experiment with a more creative model. We're going to have a membership community. We're not, you know, like, I don't want to get too into like telling you what that is right now, but that's essentially what we're talking about. And.

[00:22:26] Something that like I've been experiencing because like I'm somebody who changes a lot. I've always changed. You know, I think that my core kind of re remained the same person, but I'm, I'm okay with changing and evolving. That's always been something kind of a part of my like fabric, you know, but something, I think I've had a hard time really understanding.

[00:22:47] Is the way that that affects my relationships. And you know, you and I have talked about this a lot. Like when I partnered with you, I felt like some people in my life were kind of acting out about it. And my therapist was really helpful with explaining like you've changed and what you've touched upon with some of these people.

[00:23:06] She's like, you know, she would guess, cause she's not. You know, advise me on people she doesn't know is that they don't know how they're attached to you anymore. You know, like you've sort of ruffled their attachment feathers and something that I got to see play out, like for myself in real time that I think made it really safe for me to explore.

[00:23:28] Like, what's next for us is we had been talking about something and you said it, it was a very offhand thing. You said, like, You know, like we weren't talking, we weren't really talking about anything. And you were just like, well, I think we know, like we like working together. So like, regardless of whatever, like happens, like we'll, we'll still work together.

[00:23:45] And I was like, I didn't realize.

[00:23:51] Nina Endrst: Like, how do I let her

[00:23:52] Anna Toonk: down easy? Well, I think it made that made me relax where I was like our working relationship or collaboration is not dependent on soul success, which I don't think I knew, or like, I don't think I knew, I thought. You know, like, I don't see like something, you know, sometimes when you react to someone you're like, ah, and you're like, oh, I didn't even know that's what it was.

[00:24:17] Or that was the point of tension or fear or whatever. And I'm pretty hip to knowing. I mean, I'm afraid everybody's going to leave me. So like, I already had like a surface level awareness of that, or that's going to be in the room with me, you know, or like in the room with our relationship or things like that.

[00:24:32] Like, I'm not, I'm always aware of that, but I don't think I had realized. Oh, like I might not be looking at my own feelings about this work or about the website. I'm also someone who's much more predisposed than Nina is delay. Harm myself, to be honest, in some ways I'll just like put my head down and do it, you know?

[00:24:53] And I'm like, oh, I didn't have to. You know, so I think I hadn't looked at my own feelings and that started that for me to kind of go cause we were sort of talking about like, oh, it's hard starting a business. And we had talked a little bit, I think, feeling each other out of like, how long could you do this before we made.

[00:25:11] You know, like, yeah. And, and I think that that is a really important conversation. And I think I was more worried that, you know, we would be like a hundred on a, like a port because, you know, we have commune dreams and I would be like Nina it's time. And you're like, cool. You know, and I'm like bringing up the Squarespace hologram and being like, please let me kill it.

[00:25:35] You know? And you're like, no, like I cause like a lot, because in some way, A lot of the work of doing, like, I think a lot of the work you don't like, I don't mind in some of the stuff. So like we had an easy, like we've had an easy partnership in that regard that like, but I think I started looking at that and was like, could you, could you really do some of this for years?

[00:25:57] And not in terms of like, you would need to do more or whatever, you know, like not, not really about you, you know, but just in terms of. How long would you really want to do this the way it is now? You know? And I was like, well, if I don't feel like I have to, in order to protect a relationship, like, I don't know, not that long journey, little did I know it was like two more months, but I'd made at that point, no

[00:26:23] Nina Endrst: magical solution.

[00:26:24] I mean, I think I left my first job. I. Became a bit fearless. Like I was really attached to my first job. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are, but it was, it was a big part of my identity working in TV and just like, you know, I mean, I had teachers who like, literally didn't think I was going to graduate high school.

[00:26:48] Like I was like crazy to me cause I was such a, like a fucking. Like bad-ass, you know, to them, like, I would just fuck off and be like, I don't need to be here. Like I'm not going to come. And they were like, but it's school. And I'm like, I don't care. So I, I, but I, but I did carry that with me. And I've talked about this.

[00:27:08] I won't go back until a mentoree school stuff, but when I got my first job and I was tortured and. When you said you were someone who just puts her head down, like I just dealt with it for years, like being abused by this woman and working around the clock and like, you know, part of it, I honestly think really is paying your dues.

[00:27:31] And I hate to sound like archaic. And I know all of them, you know, gen X people are, what are they called? Gen Z.

[00:27:37] Anna Toonk: I think Jen's yeah, either Jinsey yeah. Love you guys. But I

[00:27:41] Nina Endrst: don't know what tic talkers are. Like, you know, I get it. I get what they're doing. I appreciate that. They're like making it for themselves and you know, in a lot of respects, but I do think as, you know, someone who's pushing for any, like, In my day I wanted and like, felt that it was really valuable to kind of earn it.

[00:28:05] And I feel like I have earned it, whatever it is, you know, whether it's having my own business or, you know, freedom. Like I'm like I've put in my time and I put my head down. But when I left that job, when I decided that it was too much abuse for me and the. Straw that broke the camel's back. When she was writing a book called the power of respect.

[00:28:23] Now you can Google her. I don't give a fuck. And she like berated me in an email regarding the book. And I was like, lady, this is just too much, even for me, like I'm out. But when I did that, I kind of let the identity part of it. Go. So with soul, I didn't feel I'm like this. Doesn't say anything about me.

[00:28:47] Like, do I love it? Yes. Does it mean something to me? Sure. Did I leave part of me on the table a hundred percent, but like, I can leave. I can move on. I can change. I can shift. Like I'm still me. I can take me with me. And I think with whether it's a choice in relationship romantic, a job, bigger, small, like I feel that freedom and it, and I have to remind myself of it, but it it's

[00:29:10] Anna Toonk: really helpful.

[00:29:12] I agree. I think choice is also, I think, like something that's really hard. I mean, I threw it on my Instagram asking people like, you know, said that we were recording this and asking them like, what are they choosing right now? And somebody, um, there was. Some interesting ones. And somebody said as I go to pull it up on my phone, beep pop pop.

[00:29:38] That is our whole music. And someone was like, the problem is I don't always realize when there is choice. And I would say that that is, I really identified with that. And that was something. That I feel because I've always been sort of open and willing to see things from multiple views. And I've had also a strong sense of self that I'm fascinated by people who I think are really self-contained in a way, or like, I think this, so that's enough for me.

[00:30:14] I'm like, wow, what is that? Like? You know? And so I think when people would tell me like, no, this is like, Like I knew I wanted things. Like I knew I wanted success. I knew I wanted these, you know, like I w like I wanted to be an executive producer before the age of 30. I knew I did it. And I had started to learn like, careful what you wish for.

[00:30:37] You just might get it. And that I would be so focused on these goals that like, I would get there and be like, I'm not happy. This isn't what I wanted, or this, I quit asking myself how I felt, or, and I remember being. At therapy once. And she, my therapist asked me, why didn't you say no? And I was about to get defensive and give like some explanation and be like, well, that Bob Detta.

[00:31:04] And then I was like, because I forgot I can, I forgot. I could, I forgot. That's an answer. I forgot. Like you're right. Like, and I think so often this is what sucks about choice is that when we feel we don't have one often. It's more, we maybe don't like what comes with the choice? It's not that we don't have one it's that we don't like it, which is a totally different thing, you know?

[00:31:32] And I think for us, like, especially in regards to soul and stuff, like, I mean, yeah, I would say I'm sifting through some stuff emotionally. It feels a little bit like some identities. I mean, I feel like it would be weird if you didn't feel anything about killing something, you know?

[00:31:50] Nina Endrst: And stuff. When you

[00:31:51] Anna Toonk: kill things, please go. I mean, otherwise you're getting a little bit into this

[00:31:59] but we're not there about us, but it's not the best, there's enough data here, you know? And I think, cause I like balance is a struggle for me that I, you know, I. I'm trying to be in the middle. So I think sometimes what can flip us all out is choice can feel like setting fire to your life. And I think it can be a form of it, but is that always a bad thing?

[00:32:27] Like, do we always have to be worried that making a choice is chaotic? Like I think we have these. Societal things. We get kind of governed by saying that like, it's like, it's a hot day. You all, I think society sort of society, but I think like government's involved, right? It goes all the way. Um, but I think as it comes to top guys that.

[00:32:55] You know, they you're either like, it's empowered, like, oh, she chose this or it's like, oh my gosh, what is she doing? You know, like, there's such a binary of either. It's like, you it's empowered and you, what you did was bad-ass or it's like, oh, no one say to her face. I think you're crazy. You know, like, I think there's very, like, I think we're not having a lot of conversations about the nuance or the like, Process.

[00:33:24] And I think like, Choice always need is action. And I think that what, we're not talking about a lot societaly is that that action can be little, you know, like I think for us it started like, it literally started with a conversation and then it was like, okay, are we choosing this? Is this our choice? And then it was like, okay, then what's next?

[00:33:49] You know, like it didn't all happen overnight. And. That's important to remember in anything like you can choose this person or this thing, but like the stories. There's going to, it's going to play out, you know, it's going to take some time regardless. And I think that freaks us out and disappoints us. A lot of us think making a choice means like poof, you know, like everything's changed.

[00:34:25] Nina Endrst: it's interesting that you said little because I was literally thinking. As you were speaking about how much we forget to, or deny ourselves the permission to pat ourselves on the back for small choices and recognize them as part of something more impactful. And that's where a lot of people that I work with get tripped up.

[00:34:53] I think that's where I used to get tripped up. Like, oh, I want to be here, but like, How do I go from here to there? Like there's a series of choices that I have to make to stop dating awful men and like clean up my relationship with myself and quit my job and, you know, be happy and fulfilled and relaxed and like not sick.

[00:35:17] Right? Yeah. I remember people used to be like, you know, this is all ridiculous. You know, smoking is really bad for Crohn's right. I'm like, Hmm. Yeah. I don't think that's a problem for me. That's really fun. I'd be like smoking cigarettes doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect me like that. Right. Like I can smell all the cigarettes I want.

[00:35:34] Like I smoked while

[00:35:35] Anna Toonk: I was doing chemo, so relatable, but you're like, fuck it. I'm here. Right. I didn't, I didn't. I was like, I already had. It's like, I already fucking have cancer, like whatever, you know, I mean, but if you can have a little stressed about it. Okay. So if everyone could get off my back about the Siggi's, I'd

[00:35:54] Nina Endrst: appreciate it.

[00:35:54] You know what? I have the right to smoke. I have cancer,

[00:35:58] Anna Toonk: I have cancer. You're going to be mean to the cancer patient. You're going to be that person

[00:36:04] Nina Endrst: so dark. But when I, I think discipline, which is a word that. You know, dirty for a lot of us. And it was for me for a long time, I was like, discipline gross.

[00:36:15] That makes me feel like someone's, you know, backing me into a corner or it's like a principal or a masculine figure that I want to flip off. But really what I've found helps me to choose the, the choices I want to choose every day is being disciplined and also being. Free. So if I, if I'm like, all right, what do I want to eat?

[00:36:41] Right. And I'm not obviously going to get into like food stuff, because everybody is very personal relationship with that. But for me, it's like, if I, I know what's going to energize me and I know what's going to like deplete me, so I'm going to just make the choice of something. I actually really want to eat.

[00:36:58] At that I'm craving. But also that gives me energy. Like that's how I eat. Right. Or, and not all the time, but as much as I can. And so those things really matter. Like if, if for me, you know, and then making the choice to like, take a breath when I really want to scream at somebody in the car, I have incredible road rage.

[00:37:21] It's like, That's where my temporary rose I'm like, why is everyone a fucking idiot? So instead of doing that with my kid in the car, or just like potentially getting shot, because that's the thing I'm like, okay, make the choice to take a breath, not engage and move on small, but

[00:37:41] Anna Toonk: impactful. I think sometimes I'm skeptical about big changes because I think they're actually not choices, but reactions maybe.

[00:37:52] And I do think the small choices, like I think all of us sometimes want things to be sexier when we're trying to change our lives. Like. You know, we want to be more fucked up than we are when it's like, I don't understand why do I keep dating these terrible people? You know? And it's like, you need to make different choices.

[00:38:12] And that doesn't mean you deserve bad treatment. And I think sometimes people get caught in that just because, you know, you're, you're maybe making the same choices. That doesn't mean you deserve bad treatment or you deserve bad things to happen to you. You don't. But if you're telling me you want something different than.

[00:38:31] Often you have to make different choices. Like, that's just how that goes. And I get that. We all hate it. Like I get it, but I think sometimes like we want things to be sexier and I'm like, it's literally seeing something like, for me, I used to love an emotionally unavailable man. I was like, mm, love it.

[00:38:50] Chefs, kids. Perfect. Like, I am really good, you know? Well, I mean, you're just like my Papa who was emotionally unavailable on earth and now is in the heavens truly unavailable. And I loved it. And I remember like when I first sort of grasp that, that was the pattern, you know, and I was like, I think I want to do this anymore.

[00:39:15] Like it doesn't, even though I get that, I, when I meet them, I think they're different, but they're, but they're all the same, you know, like they have different names and jobs and things, but these are essentially the same type of man and person, you know, and. I remember being so bombed when I learned like, just realizing it's a pattern, wouldn't resolve it, wouldn't change.

[00:39:39] And I was like, I thought that that would just be like, poof, you know, and I had to make a series of small choices of learning sometimes when I would meet a man. And if I was like, Ooh, I had to check in and go, is it possible that I am reacting to the fact that he is not emotionally? Okay. Is that part of this attraction here, you know, like I had to change the inquiry versus, you know, acting like, I, I mean, I think what sucks about choices, you have to, you know, it make, you have agency that you do have power that like the I'm not a victim of these men, you know, I'm, I'm, co-creating this dynamic and that sucks, you know, like anything that's harming us, we often play a part in it, you know, in, in.

[00:40:27] Interpersonal relationships and things like that. I'm not talking about abuse. Um, no, never. Yeah, no, never your fault. When it comes to, like, if you are steadily, you know, engaging a parade of fuck boys, you're playing a part in that. Unfortunately, I'm telling you I hurt me just as much. When I found out I was playing a part in my like fuckboy parade, as it might be hurting your feelings to find out you're playing a part in it.

[00:40:54] But I think that feels really resistant. Like you don't want to take that on board when you don't understand the choices you're making when you're like, well, but what do you mean? Like, and I think that it can feel really appealing sometimes to be a spectator to your life and to be like, I don't know how this keeps happening.

[00:41:13] I don't know. You know, and I think that. Some of what has to be acknowledged as like, it is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to stay in your life. It's a lot of work to say present, you can get to a point where it feels like a lot of it's almost like on autoplay in a way, like you just, you know, like it's not as much work for me now, as it was five years ago, like a lot of stuff now is just sort of baked in.

[00:41:38] I don't have to think that much about it. It's just how I go about things. And I think that's part of why. For us to making the decision to fold Seoul was like quick, like we've gotten better at these things. We know kind of like, yeah, it's not fun. We don't enjoy it. And that's part of our value, you know?

[00:41:55] Like we want to do things that we're excited about and feel good about. And you know, like that process has just gotten quicker. Had this been five years ago, like it might've been more drawn out, like who knows, you know, I think that you have to look at sometimes, like if you're not getting the things you want, what is it you're actively choosing and seeing like, does that line up?

[00:42:19] Like we all do. Like, self-sabotage like, all this stuff is really tricky. Like we can all say like, I want to be healthy. And as we're saying, I want to be healthy. We're smoking a cigarette. Like we all do these things, you know? Like I want to feel more joy. Okay, cool. Then like, why are you dating this person who is so joyless, you know, like, and it's okay to, I think if you have a hierarchy, you know, but I think it, it does help to.

[00:42:50] Kind of do those audits and go, what am I choosing?

[00:42:57] Nina Endrst: We don't like to have, you know, responsibility about too much responsibility. I don't think as humans we want, you know, to just carry on and I'm baby. Yeah. And I think that there's also this daily, you know, Responsibility. And that is kind of when you're at the beginning, I'd like to say, because as you mentioned, and I feel the same, it's so baked into what I do now that even if somebody put like a pack of cigarettes in a, you know, full bottle of wine and was like, poof, you're you have no, you have nothing to do tomorrow.

[00:43:39] Like drink this whole thing and smoke this pack of cigarettes. I'd be like, I'm thinking about it, but I wouldn't choose. And that's baked into me, but if you did that five years ago, I would have made that choice. And so it does become easier and more natural and organic. And that. I think an important point to, you know, deliver to people.

[00:44:06] It's like, it's not always going to be really hard to make good choices for yourself, but it feels that way at the beginning because you're like, oh shit, I've been making all these other choices for so long. That's baked into me.

[00:44:26] Anna Toonk: yeah. And also to ask yourself why. I for a long time, you know, I had a point of view and I would know what my choice was, but I was also someone that like, often people really like to talk me out of it or stop. And I'm someone that like, I don't love having to keep asking to be heard so often it would just be easier to acquiesce, you know, and stuff like that.

[00:44:55] Like if you're not making the choices you want to make, like. There's often a reason, you know, and I would invite people to explore that and go, yeah, like, what is my relationship with that? Like, what is that, you know, like, why am I resistant? Cause I think so much of choice is literally just giving yourself permission.

[00:45:17] And I think we get caught up in this hierarchy of like, it's okay if you choose certain things, it's okay. If you choose, you know, health or we, you know, Uh, but it's like, but we're still like debating, like, you know, access rights to like abortion and things like that. So it's weird that in society it's like, if you say I'm choosing not to drink, like.

[00:45:37] People feel some kind of way about it, you know, it's like, if you said, well, because I'm pregnant or because I'm, you know, I'm sober. People are like, oh, okay, well I'll leave you alone. But if you literally were laying like alcohol, like I'm not a huge drinker, I would always rather imbibe cannabis. Lots of I've gone through periods where I wasn't drinking, just because I have acid reflux.

[00:45:58] And so when my acid reflux is really bad, I try not to drink alcohol because it makes it worse, blah, blah, blah. And people, it, it makes people go like buzzers, you know, when I'm like, I'm just not drinking. Cause it doesn't feel that like, if I had said, oh, because I'm an alcoholic, they're like right by.

[00:46:14] Right. I respect, you know, but. Interesting. If you, if it feels hard for you to respect your own choices, I think, and to like, not care, what other people think like as someone who felt really worn out by just like what everyone has to say about your choices and like that plays a part in my choices. It's worth examining that because the more I've gone, none of that is for me, it's all about them.

[00:46:47] It's, it's not, it's not really reflective of my choice. It's more about their feelings about it. And it's a way in which we feel connected to people that we're doing the same things. You know, the more I've I've like reminded myself in those moments when people are like, whoa, you know, It's easier. It's so much easier for me to make the decisions and choices that are best for me.

[00:47:09] Yeah. Also

[00:47:10] Nina Endrst: who to that end, like who am I making this choice for?

[00:47:14] Anna Toonk: You know, a hundred percent, is

[00:47:16] Nina Endrst: this for me even, is this even for me, and I think there's so many of us that do it for, you know, approval of our peers or our parents, and we don't even realize that that's a big part of how we. Decide things or even what, to the person who submitted the, I don't even know when there's a choice.

[00:47:39] If your, I have a client who, you know, I was speaking to her about like getting dressed when she was little girl and she's like, I didn't have a choice of what I could wear. It was, you are wearing this or you're not leaving the house. So

[00:47:54] Anna Toonk: imagine

[00:47:54] Nina Endrst: you grew up. And there is no choice, right? In a lot of life, you're not going to be able to easily recognize it.

[00:48:03] Out in the world and that's okay that you didn't do anything wrong. If that's part of your story. I personally grew up in a home where it was like, I had many, many choices and I was very lucky for that, but it was, I could wear whatever I want. I could, you know, really just. Choose what I felt for the most part.

[00:48:25] And so I see things differently, right. Because of that. But you can observe currently. How you see small choices arise or don't right. Okay. Do I want to, what food do I have available? What, what, what actions do I think I can take today? Whether it be meditating or not exercise, choosing to get mad at somebody choosing to call of one, whatever it is, what do I see that's available to me?

[00:48:54] And if you're like, I don't know, I don't see a lot. That's okay. Just start really small, you know, I see I can have an apple or a pear and I mean, it might sound ridiculous, but that's just how we have to build. We have to go from the ground up.

[00:49:10] Anna Toonk: Yeah. You can also choose. I'm not that super interested in what I eat today.

[00:49:14] Like okay. Then what's something, you know, like you just won't be hungry afterwards, you know, like. There's a million different ways. You can look at it. And I agree that like, just starting to build in the awareness of what you're choosing and like stopping to choose. It can be a powerful act. I said to Nina before we started that, I was like, I want to talk about the levers of the, what number is the lovers, the sixth card and the major Arcana.

[00:49:44] Oh. But I wanted you to read it's a it's from Laetitia BA she's done taro and, uh, divination cards, this incredible book that is a visual archive. And it's, I would say more of a visual archive and visual study than it is like traditional card theory. But. I think of the lovers card is a lot about choice and it is choosing what you love and what feels harmonious and like all those kinds of things.

[00:50:16] And I had to go through that process, learning taro of the disappointment that the lover's isn't always like, yes, love, you know, But I was like, Hmm. And so much more, you know, about all our stuff, but I love what Leticia put in here. It put in this book and it's from Rachel Maulik, which yes, I am, you know, original Stan and 78 degrees.

[00:50:41] To wisdom. Rachel Polich described the lover as a parable for adolescents, the time in our lives, in which we come to understand that the world is vast and goes beyond visions. Our elders taught us. We become ourselves, discovering what we love and why we love an affirmation. Sometimes welcomed as a rebellion to the ones who shaped us up until this point.

[00:51:03] Our hero has met four archetype of figures, commanders of spiritual material straps. Looking at them in the eyes, seeing reality through the spectrum of their knowledge. Now at a crossroad, he asked to just to decide to stay within the limiting framework they built or cut ties and see the world through his own gaze through the firsthand experience.

[00:51:24] For me, the love Ricard is a Rubicon, a threshold in which one decides to step out of their comfort zone, going against the grain, the grain, and towards the self. I think often what we're always afraid of is if I choose myself or I choose what I want, will I lose the people who love. And I think that's thing.

[00:51:47] I think that's often what is underneath it. If I choose this, will I lose this? You know? And that's something too to ask yourself when you're choosing yourself or putting yourself forward or putting what you want. Forward. What are, what are you afraid of losing? Who are you afraid of losing and then ask you why?

[00:52:08] Like I have had to, I mean, I grew up in a household where it was like kind of the illusion of choice of like, oh yeah, you could yeah. Do make that choice, but it better be the right. Or it better be the successful one or it better be, you know, like of course, of course choose, choose be yourself, but you better be successful and you better be the, you know, so I think I've been like, yeah, totally.

[00:52:33] I'm going to make these choices and would it be me? I'm like, oh, but, oh my God, please, please work, please. You know, and I've had to realize that's not the agreement, you know, that's not the agreement. Joyce isn't a guarantee of success or whatever. It's a guarantee of nothing. It's literally a choice of direction or action.

[00:52:51] You know, my

[00:52:52] Nina Endrst: job, it's the truth. I mean, I hear it all the time and I feel like that card is it's. I mean, there's so much depth to it, but that's such a. That's such an important piece of it is yeah. You the right people too. I believe won't do that to you. They won't be. And that doesn't mean that people won't have their opinions or projection on you or, you know, even hurting things.

[00:53:27] Exactly. But truly, truly loved is not rooted in. You being like a prisoner of your own mind or circumstances, you need to have freedom and you deserve freedom to choose the choices that you really feel aligned with. And being able to show that to people also in your life, whether it's, you know, breaking some sort of like generational pattern and showing your kids that maybe divorce isn't something.

[00:54:02] You know, your parents really approve of, but it's something that you need to do to really heal yourself and move forward in a healthy way in your life. Then that's from, that's the choice that you need to choose. And if people don't understand it, that's, it's not yours to, to carry around.

[00:54:23] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And to that point as well, like it's okay.

[00:54:28] If that also sucks, you know, I've made lots of choices where people not supporting them sucked, you know, and I still knew they were what I needed to do. And as you know, Oh, yeah. Like if you're in that zone too, I feel you I'm sending you a hug. Cause it's

[00:54:47] Nina Endrst: yeah. There's some suckage thank you for adding that because it's the truth, you know, we can't guarantee there will be no, no sucking.

[00:54:56] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like I encourage. All of us to make the choices that are in our best interest and be able to weather that, you know, can we weather that? Some people don't like it and won't show up for us the way we will. And will we be able to see the people who are showing up for us, you know, and see through our own fears, like I've been pleasantly surprised that lots of people, when I told that we were.

[00:55:22] You know, fold soul, like we're super supportive and we're like, that's amazing. I'm so glad you're going to redirect your energy and how impressive that y'all knew this so quickly, you know, like we're so if usage, you know, in there kind of praise that, I was like, almost wanted to reject it because I was so surprised, you know, and I had to be like, no, really see that, take that on board.

[00:55:44] That's a nice thing. Don't miss it.

[00:55:47] Nina Endrst: Beautiful way to end. Well, we will keep you well, you'll be in the loop by now because this come out. I don't know whenever it'll come out,

[00:55:55] Anna Toonk: but three years,

[00:55:58] Nina Endrst: three weeks. Thank you guys so much for listening and we hope to see you over at our new membership and just thanks for supporting.

[00:56:08] We love you guys. All of you. Every single last one of ya.

[00:56:16] That's all for today's episode.

[00:56:18] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for our advice episode, please join our membership community howtobehumanpod.com.

[00:56:29] Thanks for listening, and remember, we're guides not gurus.