Leon

There's an expectation that you will step up as a man, that you will do things you will be that person like in the movies or in the books where you will do no matter how hard it is you will step up.

Alex

Today's guest is Leon Ward, a disability development officer who lives just outside of Bath. In today's episode, we'll learn how a man deals with and reflects back on failure. The story starts on board a boat near Cornwall on English channel is 2007. And John is feeling severely ill whilst in an annual team sailing competition.

Leon

We knew we were going into something really nasty. We knew we were going to beat down through the English Channel into a storm, and we knew it was gonna be big, and it's gonna last more than a day. We ended up with force nine gusts in 10, which is really, really big stuff, something I've never been in before. And I'm one of the hounds on the watch. So helming the boats are taken an hour at a time actually driving the boat. At the point this will happen, I think we were one of about 60 boats left in the race of the 300 and started it. We'd already heard Mayday calls over the radios and things like that are people in trouble with life, both snort and helicopters and things at night, were at night is big waves, it actually is the only time I've seen something that looks like the movie, The Perfect Storm, where you're, you're on the helm of the boat, and you're climbing waves just like in the movie. And genuinely very scary. You're not so much worried about yourself, you're that you're that everybody else is now in your hands, because you've got 10 of you on the boat. Three or four, those people are asleep below. If you get this wrong, this boat rolling into a wave or a snap is masked. Everybody's in massive trouble. We will be in sick, unable to eat and adjust a storm keep going and we keep racing. We're in a race that we keep going, we keep going. I'm tired. And I'm feeling so rough and everything can I know my terms coming I'm going to spend an hour and a half of the boat taking responsibility of everybody. And it just a was actually my brother. And I just said are you actually on Europe, and I went, I can't do it. I can't take the helm. And it was this weird this suddenly I can't do this. I'm harnessed on I'm going on my full kit for you. So there's that the waves are coming in over the top of the boat. Go I'm just going straight through us. But I'm just sat there huddled and I just do not want to move. This is as far as I can push myself at this point in time. And it sounds like quite a small thing. But it massively affected me at the time and afterwards. And then the next time it was alright, the next time I'd kind of got my stuff sorted out and I felt better. And the next time it was my turn I took took my helm and held the boat. Whenever I think back to it, the first thing that pops into my head but people I couldn't have done that time when I had to when it was my go was my turn to be responsible for everybody for that one hour period. I couldn't do it. And that almost defines the whole race for me and my whole thought of that because there was a point I couldn't do what I need to do. I should have just done that. But then I then partly because what about it went wrong? I felt that Elon that bad. What about if I had killed everybody? It's proper serious stuff if you mess it up. And the weird thing was every other time, it's hours and hours a helmet bow. And every time it was absolutely fine. And I humbly speak through the storms, and this one time, I didn't. But I did everything I supposed to do, except for this one thing. And this one thing, just kind of like, sits there as a as a problem for me that I like, I let everybody down. There we go, like a letter a damn.

Alex

Why do you feel so upset about that even 15 years later, when the other perspective you could have taken was, you know what, I'm so glad I didn't take the helm. Because I could have made a bad mistake that could have potentially caused fatalities

Leon

talking about that as a safety issue. That was a sensible decision what I did, if I'm being all kind of logical with it, as you know, I was not well, and it was a sensible decision not to do it. But there's a feeling and me as a person that I didn't do it, there's an expectation that you will step up as a man that you will do things you will be that person like in the movies or in the books where you will do no matter how hard it is, you will step up and and then I meet people who do that kind of stuff I do. That's a weird thing. To be tested, and go, because lots of people in our life, lots of men aren't tested, they would like to be I would think they would be and they're not tested in that that kind of physical sense that how much how scared would Can you take it? How can you keep going when it gets really terrible. And that was hard to recognise that there was a point where I would I couldn't go beyond you imagine you can do anything. And you regularly talk to people, people thought I could do that I can do this, I can do that. And that was one of the there's been a couple of times in my life and have been put in that position. That's why otherwise put in a position where I had to face the fact that there was a point like wouldn't go beyond. And then I meet people who will go beyond that point. And I meet people who've gone way beyond a point like that. I kept going for me to recognise that I wasn't that imaginary person that I didn't all my life I kind of imagined I would there was nothing would stop me. And do this. Certainly recognise there was a point where I would go, No, I'm done. I can't do this. I can't step up to this. That that's hard. Yeah. And I say that I say no that, like sits now 15 years on that. There was a point where i i found out what my limit was,

Alex

would you consider it as a regret what happened?

Leon

I think so. Yeah. I mean, from a purely safety point of view was probably a good thing. I didn't take the helm, but I wish it had and what would that have given

Alex

you, if you'd had taken down

Leon

wouldn't have given me an unrealistic expectation what I was capable of, because I thought Yeah, I couldn't do anything until the next time I bumped into something I couldn't do.

Alex

A lot of men have issues around comparison. I end up comparing myself to a friend or to some other guy and I was like, well, he would have done this and he would have done that. Can you talk about any experiences you had with comparison to those other sailors who were there on the boat that day?

Leon

It's strange to know other people could do that at that point in time so they must have felt the same as me and to know that they could do it but then you don't believe you question it you go What did they feel as ill as mine did? Or did did was this scary for them? You know, it was scary for all of us but so it's hard to compare yourself with the people you don't kind of know what's going on with people's heads and what their previous life experiences are. As I said, I've done lots of adventurous things in my life but there's not many times I've been pushed into a corner where it was proper life threatening stuff where it was proper dangerous and to bump into that point where you go this is profit scary and this is kind of where I am with this and I really got a problem with this.

Alex

Did you think you could you did you think you could die?

Leon

Oh for sure. Yeah, it was as much a worry that would kill everybody else. Let's kill myself that I would make a mistake and take nine people with me.

Alex

But even whilst you're on the boat without being at the helm, did you think you could die because of the storm?

Leon

Strangely No, no, it was much more worried that I had let other people down that I would somehow endanger other people by my bit my actions my behaviour it wasn't a worry about myself no that fear was a fear for other side if I did this, I would kill other people.

Alex

Did you have any sort of epiphanies or aha moments or about your life in that moment? You know, when you're in a dangerous situation like that, or you know, you in that situation where you you could take them or you don't take the helm

Leon

it happened? I had one afterwards. I just sat in the corner of the cockpit just thinking I wish I'd done I heard but not still not wanting to volunteer at any point in that hour long would have been my helm in session, I could have volunteered, and I didn't. So I sat there not doing it. That's hard to think back on. I think well, yeah, I didn't.

Alex

Do we hold ourselves to unrealistic standards at some points? Because it's much Oh, we, we have to retain some sort of masculinity? I think

Leon

so I think there's an expectation as a guy that you will do this, that you will step up, that's the that's the work, but you will step up. You hear those phrases, you hear people about money, and that's the phrase they use that they're talking about, guys, I'm not saying that girls, that you will step up as a guy and you will do your bit. But I guess it's a circumstantial in that if you if you have no choice, I had a choice. I had people around me, I had the ability to make that choice. Yeah, there's there it is. I had the ability to make that choice. I had other people to rely on, if I did by myself that have an entirely different kettle of fish. Yeah, that's part of the feeling. The almost embarrassed feeling about it is because I knew other people would pick up the slack.

Alex

I've been there myself is kind of like a need and a want. situation. You know, you want to take the helm. But because you knew you had that there was almost like an element of retreat there. You could you know, you could you could get that those Helping Hands out support from people that you trusted, you knew that they could look after things.

Leon

And that's embarrassing and a way to go. I am I knew that they would pick up the slack in this that they would take this on.

Alex

Why are you embarrassed by that?

Leon

I didn't do my bit. Yeah, this again, is this this masculinity thing? Isn't it this idea that you must do your part, and you must be part of the team, and you must be able to do what everybody else would do.

Alex

If you if you had if you had to choose one thing from your life that shaped your view of masculinity, what would that be? Oh,

Leon

I think a lot of my awareness of masculinity what, what I was taught it was should be I'm white. And what I saw was my father, and the way he would behave as a man, as a former soldier suffered from PTSD, it turned out as an adult thinking back through it and looking at it. But in a very aggressive man, a very non no emotional sharing vote, very kind of get things done. Almost a stiff upper lip service stereotypical, this kind of idea that we don't talk about, we would never talk about feelings. We would never give anybody a hug, we will never do. That sounds like I'm reading off what other people read off and I recognise that's a thing. That's a thing from the 1970s. When I was a child, that's what the world was like. That's kind of, I guess, starts that how you define yourself your masculinity, how you look at it. You see these people who came postwar came from these guys who came from the 50s and 60s, who were conscripted into unreason navies and went to wars and all kinds of things happen to them. And they were really expected to just carry on. And this just poured out all over the place in their personal lives as adults, when they were back in their normal world. And nobody ever spoke about it, but it kind of like defines people, it was all very, you know, we were just going to keep going and Stop making a fuss, that kind of thing. And I think that's a that's where it comes from this idea that you need to step up and you need to do your thing, because that was a an expectation when I was a child,

Alex

I would be, I'd be guessing that. I'm curious what you think on this up, like your father who went through the Korean War, that, inevitably, he would have faced so many horrors and things that you and I have not experienced that his ability or capabilities to deal with tough panic situations, whatever you want to call it, his threshold, rather, is probably a better word. Probably would be a lot greater than you and I so he, you know, if he was in unspeakable situations, he could handle them better than you. And I could because because he's had that. Yeah, I think because my father is a used to be a coal miner. My stepfather and my grandfather was also a coal miner as well. So there was no there's no speaking about your your feelings or emotions and tough situations that you've that you've been through because my grandfather saw fatalities down the mines and you know, and he didn't share that with with other people. So we're living in very different times. If you think about the way that masculinity and what it means to be a man has developed in the last Oh, yeah. 6070 years. I mean, it's just so different now. I don't know if you've got children.

Leon

The male side of you don't have a daughter who When he was a soldier, which was a very strange experience for me, yeah, to have a daughter became a soldier, because she had that experience that I had not had. I had Yeah, that's a weird thing. And my grandfather was soldier my dad was a doctor was. So that's very strange that not being put in that position, I've been lucky enough not to be put in that position.

Alex

Because you, I suppose, because our fathers, grandfathers or whatever, have, you know, gone through some difficulties and tragedies in war and which have paved the way to allow us to live a much, much more privileged life where we're not in those situations?

Leon

Yeah, basically. Yeah. I'm lucky to live where I live now. And to be in this position. And to my father, as I said, my father came from Irish family, my grandfather, great grandfather, great, great grandfather, one Irish travellers, and came from a very different world, to what island in their, their whole thing ran down through the family about how you would behave, and how you spoke to people and how you dealt with things and, and things that we would not consider normal to things like, for violence to be normal, you know, this is normal to you, you would, in some way, attack somebody who were who wronged you in some fashion, you know, this kind of thing. And that was a wound that existed and that these men would step up, and there would be no mess around and they would just get it sorted. And that's how it was. And yeah, I'm aware I live in a world where very privileged, I don't, I don't have to think like that. Yeah.

Alex

How did you change as a man, after that experience,

Leon

it's purely about recognising the limitations that recognising that head of limitation, you can convince yourself, you don't have one until you're confronted with it right in your face. You could probably go through your life going, Yeah, I'd be alright, I could do that. I could manage anything, I could step up. And I can do that. And most things, I'm pretty good. I can step up. I've lots of sort of interesting experiences, not, you know, physically dangerous ones, emotional ones, and families and illness and death and things like that, like, I know, I can step up and I can do what I need to do. But to realise there is a limit, there is a point where I will go, actually, I can't do this.

Alex

Have you had a situation where you've had what you thought was a perceived limit? And then realise, you know what, like to use your words, I'll step up and realise that that actually wasn't a limit at all. And you just decided to push past it or?

Leon

Yes, yeah. That's certainly again, that's that's headset if you're a sailor, changing the headsail. So changing one of the sales reps, in a big city, daylight, different races, offshore race, big massive seas and have gone to before deck and do a headset of change. And to be forward with somebody holding on to me, we're both hooked on but we were fixed onto the boat. Actually, somebody's holding me as I change the sails, we're going under the works. And I'm going under every time we drop down, we're going under the waves and then we can and then turn into the chat with me and going after I can't do this. And he's going, you're going to have to because I can't. And then keeping going and then coming out of that and going, Wow, I didn't think I had that. Going under every wave. I'm really scared. It's more physical effort than I thought how I thought had no more physical effort and still making that happen. So I know there is a point well, I mean, there's nobody else is going to do this. But I'm going to do it. It's one of the things I identify as.

Alex

So did you question your identity as a sailor after that incident?

Leon

I don't think so. No, I don't think I did.

Alex

So the next race you went into it? Did it go? Well?

Leon

Yeah. So fine. Yeah. Never have not experienced that since.

Alex

you said something interesting. Before that you that thought of what happened that day was still in your mind, and it's still in your mind every time you do a race? Why is that? And how does it benefit you? Or is it? Is it a? Is it a detriment to you?

Leon

I think it's a bit of both. It's recognising there is a lot to do. But it also puts that little bit element of doubt in your head. Just kind of go well, I hope it's quite really quite a long way off that point that you know, I have to be really pushing me very, very seriously before, I can't do this. But but to know there is a point. Maybe that's constructive to notice a point to avoid that putting my face to that face to face with the fact there is a point I can't go beyond

Alex

what point does it come into your head? Is it safe? You make a small mistake that negative thought comes in your head or is at a point in the race you always get that thought or what what is it? I

Leon

think so it can it has at times maybe go for a safer option and things. Just think that let's not put myself and the rest of the rest of the team in that position. That's definitely happened. Not like massively big things, but just the slightly go. I wouldn't do that or let's not do that. Let's not push that particular thing that I might have done before. Yes, it's changed. But then I don't know where these things because I'm because your perception changes with age about what you're willing to accept as a risk? Well, I would accept her as a risk in my 20s is very different to what I'll accept in my 50s.

Alex

You know, if it would have been a situation where you couldn't take the helm at all in that race, then you might have felt even more strongly about it. But the fact that you actually took the helm A few hours later, I just find that interesting that you, it feels like you, you, you class it as a failure to you. But most people would probably see it as well, I just wasn't ready. At that point in time, I'll just change places with someone else, which is what you want. You didn't Yeah, if you break

Leon

it down, it's it doesn't sound terribly much of a big thing. You get what I just made a sensible decision, and didn't do something that might have endangered others. But in my head, it feels different to that.

Alex

So that's why I'm curious as to why such as this thing that you've not let go off?

Leon

I can't answer that one. I don't think it just sits there. This thing? I wish I had done that. It's a regret. Yeah, I regret. But how can you regret something you couldn't do?

Alex

Can you let that go? I'm probably

Leon

the first time I've talked openly about

Alex

why Why have you never talked about that event? That story with anyone else?

Leon

Because Can I start talking about stuff like that? You don't. There's an expectation in society, you want talk about how you felt about something.

Alex

Because you deem it as a failure. And you don't want to talk about your failures with people.

Leon

I think it's a failure, you're recognising fear, you're recognising your physical ability to do something you're recognising a weakness, physically illness or whatever. And to talk about that is something that society doesn't as an expectation you won't do as a guy you want to about I think you should just done it. I've just talked to you about it all. But it's, it's something I've not told that particular event, you'll find me in life, I will talk about lots of things I will talk about mental health in very clear ways with people be quite open about it. But I've not told that this particular event, my personal feelings about it before.

Alex

So I think I asked you before about if it has changed, changed you as a man or not. And you said, it's kind of you feel like you know that you've got a limit now, but does as it as it kind of changed you in any other ways?

Leon

I don't think it has no, it's it just I'll tell you what it does. It changes your perception of risk changes I mentioned, my daughter was a soldier. And that was scary to, for her to be an adult. And me not to ever look after her and have to trust that she could step up and use the word step up again, that she could step up and be that person. And to get interest somebody you care about and that you love that they can do this, knowing that are not a perfect person. You can't do everything and and that wasn't worried, yeah, that could she step up and do what she needed to do. That's that Yeah, to think about somebody else that you care about, and go, can they do that?

Alex

So when you were wanting your daughter to step up, were you thinking of that scenario that happened on the boat that day?

Leon

I don't think particularly that one. It was like a group of things and things in your life when you think about different things that happen to you. Because it's not all about physical danger. To yourself, it's not often things are about how you behave in situations, I mentioned things like illness and illnesses, one in families and death and things like that. That's the I think that's probably the hardest one to deal with. I think I think that's harder to deal with, than a physical threat into I'm taking part in a sport, I'm gonna say anyways, you know, that's not, it's almost not as serious as having to deal with it on my phone, and I'll die of cancer, you know, over a prolonged period of time, it's, it's very different, but you're still having to be that person and do you know, I need to be tough, I need to be strong, I need to be that person, you can do this, you can cope with this situation. So it's not necessarily about safety and danger.

Alex

I'm fascinated by this concept of stepping up or Manning up, they kind of had this similar sort of, sort of meaning because I think for my for myself that you know, I've kind of, in certain situations I've said, I've said to myself, you know, or mono up or, or the other one is grow a pair, which we've all you know, heard before or might even have used I try not to say that kind of thing, but I probably said it when I was a teenager or whatever. You know, you can have derogatory words for for people or you or you can say it to yourself in a sort of a negative self self image kind of way. Why do you think we say these things man up and step up and grow up air and how does that But how does that impact us as men?

Leon

That's an interesting one. It's, it's just people have always done it, people have always said that kind of I've just think about how I actually think about I've used the phrase, probably five or six times a step up. And it's not the phrase I use now, as an older man to think about when I've got to do something that needs to happen. I don't think you'd like that. The phrase I use is I take care of business, I know there's a job I've got to do, and I will take care of that job, that I will take care of the business needs to happen, I think in a different way. That's a conscious thing. I don't think I must step up, I must become something, I just go, this is a task that needs to be done.

Alex

And I will do that. Why? Why is why is it Why have you made that change, because

Leon

more constructive it to do, it's a doable thing. It makes it doable for me, instead of going I must become something greater. I go, now I can do this, I just need to do it.

Alex

So as you can have counselled and guided your your daughter through childhood, and you know, becoming a woman, and you know, you wanted her to step off and in certain, certain occasions do you think you would have treated? If you had, if you had a son? Would you think you would have treated him in a different way? In terms of would you have been a bit more

Leon

interesting? I would like to think not. Yeah, I would really like to think not, I would like to think I was not my father. That's an old cliche admit, but I'd like to think I'm not him, that I wouldn't don't how he did it. It was massive for me to not be the parents that I had to be different to not fit those. This is how you do it. This is how we behave. Yeah, it was massive for me to actually think about what was going on and what I was doing.

Alex

What I found interesting about Leon story was that he didn't tell anyone about what happened on that boat. For 15 years, I was the first person he told in 15 years, not his wife, not his loved ones, friends and family, nobody. And I find that fascinating, because if he'd have just told someone after what had happened, so naturally, that would have been his wife when he went home. Perhaps he could have laid that to rest and forgotten about it. But it stayed in his head all those years that that was a failure. On this, what he perceived to be a failure, I didn't even think of it as a failure. If it had happened to me, I don't think I would have seen it as a failure at all, because he was still able to take the helm A few hours later. So it's very revealing, as men on what we see as failure, and what we see is not an in the case of Leon, he saw that as a failure. He's found that difficult to really forget about and to let go over the years. This term that Leon used as well step up, makes me think of man up, as well. We hear that those kinds of phrases and those kinds of words a lot in British society. What does that actually mean? And can this be counterproductive to men, making them feel negative emotions, shame or guilt, whether they didn't step up in a particular situation? That's something I feel we can address in society.