This is Apologetics Live.

To answer your questions, your host from.

Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

It is not Andrew Rapaport.

No, no, no, it is.

It is his trusty sidekick and co host, Drew.

I am here this week.

I don't see my other co host, Tom Shepard.

I believe he's working.

He's been working a lot on Thursdays with his business and so, hey, can't blame him for that.

But thank you for joining in to Apologetics Live.

Apologetics Live is a podcast ministry from Striving for Eternity where we seek to answer your difficult Bible questions.

And if you want to challenge that, feel free, come on in.

Go to apologeticslive.com, click the duck icon, make sure that your audio and video is linked up, and we will bring you in.

Although maybe not tonight.

Unless your topic is relevant to tonight's topic, what you want to discuss.

And we are going to be, it is going to be a little bit weighty topic tonight because it's one that we don't necessarily have any joy in discussing.

It's actually one that hurts a lot and it hurts a lot of people.

But we felt the need to discuss it.

But let me bring in some of my co hosts for tonight, Mr.

Chris Huff.

So it's basically a, it's basically Matter of Theology takes over.

Apologetics Live is what it is.

So we haven't, we haven't done any Matter of Theology episodes except for what we do on here.

Well, and now what's, what's, Gosh, what's heartbreaking, man, we, we need to do another one because we had one already planned out.

We just haven't done it yet.

Yeah.

And it fits with this topic.

And, but I mean, the sad part is, I mean, and I'm smiling just because it's, it's all I can do is smile to keep from crying.

The last two things that you and I have really done together, it's, it's been about people that, that we respected, revered and appreciated and that have fallen.

Yeah.

Chosen themselves above Christ and above the group and, and the church.

So we'll get into more of that.

But, but yeah, man, we need to do, we need to do something else in between.

Seriously?

Yeah.

Something, something a little more joyful, you know?

Yeah.

Let me bring in my other co host for this evening.

Dan Kraft.

The seven foot apologist is with us tonight.

You're muted.

I'm always muted.

My wife likes it better that way.

I have a mug, one of my favorite mugs on the backside.

It says you're on mute.

So there are times with work that I'll drink coffee with it.

I'm like, perfect.

Let me show that a little.

Perfect.

Now, before we really get into tonight's episode, I do something that I think we can rejoice in.

I didn't tell him I was going to do this, although I probably should have at least sent him a message or something.

But one of the former co hosts of this show, Pastor Justin Pierce, just graduated from the.

The Shepherd's Theological Seminary with his m.

Div.

So if you know Pastor Justin Pierce, reach out to him and congratulate him on that accomplishment, because it was one of the things that pulled him away from doing the podcast.

Because if you've been through seminary, then you know that it is a lot of work, it's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing, and it takes up a lot of your time.

On top of being a pastor and being a husband and a father, there's just really no time for anything else.

So congratulations to Pastor Justin Pierce.

Way to go, Justin.

And now I was sent this video.

Actually seen it on.

I saw it posted on Facebook.

I saw the original video.

It's a Tik tok.

I went to the Tik Tok page.

I asked a couple of questions of this person.

They viewed my Tik Tok, but never answered any questions.

And then I just said, hey, we're going to discuss this a little bit on Apologetics Live on Thursday night at 8 o' clock in case they wanted to view it.

View.

View.

View the show.

And they blocked me.

But to the video, there was a response made that was absolutely perfect.

So I'm going to go ahead and share.

Oh, no, you're not.

I'm a pastor.

No, you're not.

I'm a pastor.

No, you're not.

I'm a pastor.

No, you're not.

I'm a pastor.

No, you're not.

Your flat top testifies against you.

Aim for the flat top.

Oh, my.

I'm a path.

That is so good.

That is such a Keith Fosky response to something like that.

Yeah, but that vid.

That just.

That video in itself was very interesting because in there, that woman who's pretending to be a pastor says something that's very interesting.

She says in this, she says, you will not hear about sin in this church.

Yeah, I saw that.

Okay, so what are you talking about?

How does.

How do you talk about Christ and what Christ did?

If you do not talk about sin, you can't.

It doesn't make any sense?

It doesn't compute.

Yeah, so that's, I mean that's why.

As vodka likes to say, that dog won't hunt.

Yeah, yeah, it's.

Well and that's the majority of what you see in, I mean not just churches like that, but you see it in a lot of the secret oriented churches that exist today.

Right.

It's just like they sing all the songs that said, you know, that talks about God healing our broken heart and carrying our burdens and, and lifting us up and encouraging us.

But you hear nothing about sin, you hear nothing about hell.

You hear nothing about depravity, you hear nothing about our need.

The greatest need that any of us have, that Christ has met is, is that is how does a sinful man made right with a holy God.

And, and so it's the majority of.

Churches today, you got the Savior without anything to be saved from.

There you go, bro.

Exactly.

So that leads to the question, why do you need a Savior?

From what or from whom do you.

Need to be saved from God by God because of your sin?

Yeah.

And so that was actually one of the questions I typed on there.

And as I said, okay, so what did Christ die for war or why did Christ die?

No answer.

And then ultimately blocked.

Which of course in order to answer that question you have to say sin.

Right.

So your sin.

But yeah, I thought that was pretty funny clip of Keith Foskey putting that together.

But oh, I do want to mention last week Andrew shared my business Farmstead Cottage and a couple of listeners made purchases.

So I want to tell you thank you and your all of your purchases have been mailed.

So they if you have not received them, they are in the mail on the way to you.

Now let's get into the show.

Okay.

Like I said, this is not one that we take joy in bringing.

And if you're not aware, when was this, Chris?

Was this last week?

This was uncovered May 12th is when it was released, but May 4th is when the elders met with.

Met with Josh to present that irrefutable evidence.

Right?

Yeah.

So if you haven't been following Josh, Dr.

Josh Bice, who was the lead pastor at Praise Mill Baptist Church where Chris, you and I have visited several times and the president and founder of G3 Ministries has been removed from his position with the ministry and as pastor of Praise Mill.

And the reason being is because it was found out that he had multiple social media accounts, multiple emails and multiple sub stack accounts that he was using anonymously in order to slander fellow brothers of the Faith.

Go ahead, Chris.

Yeah, let me just.

Let me just read the statement.

Yeah, yeah, from.

And so I'm just going to read this statement.

This is from Praise Mill Baptist church.

It's just praisemail.com.

it's.

This is.

This is from their elders.

So as.

As you guys know, we.

We wholeheartedly believe in the local church and the need to be plugged into and.

And involved in the local church.

And from a church discipline standpoint and a discipline standpoint, this is in their hands, Very capable hands, might I add.

So, but this is their statement.

This is directly right now, as of the recording of this.

If you're watching it live, you know what time it is and you know what day it is.

If not, this is as of May 22, 2025.

Oh, and Drew, there's some.

Something on here that I don't think you and I knew, so I'm just going to read it.

Okay.

Updated May 22nd.

Okay.

2025.

They've updated this today to reflect Josh's resignation from PNBC.

And I quote, the Lord calls his church to walk in the light, to speak the truth in love, and to uphold integrity, especially among those entrusted with leadership.

It is in that spirit of sober transparency and humble accountability that we, the elders of Praise Mill Baptist Church, share the following statement regarding Dr.

Josh Bice, president of G3, an elder at Praise Mill Baptist Church.

In recent weeks, the elders of Praise Mill Baptist.

I'm gonna say pnbc, instead of saying the whole thing, uncovered irrefutable evidence that Dr.

Bice has, for the past three years, operated at least four anonymous social media accounts, two anonymous email addresses, and two substack platforms.

These accounts were used to publicly and anonymously slander numerous Christian leaders, including faithful pastors, some of whom have spoken at G3 conferences, several PNBC elders, and others.

These actions were not only sinful in nature, but deeply divisive, causing unnecessary suspicion and strife within the body of Christ and particularly with the eldership of PNBC.

Dr.

Bice has been asked, had had been asked on multiple occasions over the past two years whether he had any connection to these anonymous accounts.

In each case, he denied any knowledge of them.

On Sunday evening, May 4, 2025, after clear and comprehensive evidence emerged linking the accounts directly to him, the elders of PNBC confronted Josh.

For two hours.

He continued to deny his involvement.

Only after further evidence was presented and much pleading with him to walk in the light, did Josh finally confess to his actions.

Since then, Josh has acknowledged his sin, expressed sorrow, and asked for forgiveness.

His desire to personally ask forgiveness of every person he has slandered or lied to.

On May 8, after some members of the board encouraged Josh to resign, the board received and unanimously accepted Josh Bice's resignation as president of G3.

On Friday, May 16, Josh submitted his resignation as pastor of PNBC.

To the elders.

The elders are committed to walking alongside Josh in a long process of biblical counseling and discipline, seeking genuine fruit in keeping with repentance.

We ask the church to join us in praying for Josh and his family.

Pray that Josh's sorrow would continue to lead to full and lasting repentance and that he would walk humbly before the Lord.

We grieve for the harm caused to the body of Christ and to those faithful ministers whom we're targeted.

We likewise reaffirm our commitment to walk in the light, to speak the truth in love, and to labor together for the building up of Christ's church in holiness and unity.

Sincerely, the elders of Praise Mill Baptist Church.

Yeah, that reads very different than the original statement that was put out, but thank you for reading that, Chris.

And so that is what was going on.

He had multiple anonymous accounts that he was using to slander brothers.

Some that spoke at G3 conference and some of his own elders at Praise Mill Baptist Church.

Is.

That's something you don't really see, Right.

Like what drives someone to do that to.

To.

To slander your own elders of your church who have been appointed as overseers.

To help you along with.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Co laborers who are to help you shepherd the flock that God has given you.

Right.

What brings that about?

And then now, after the initial statement was.

Was given, another update was put out that from Josh by G3, which.

Let's just park here for a minute.

Chris, you and I have talked about this.

G3 doesn't need to be the spokesperson for Josh Bice putting out his statements.

It needs to be the elders at Praise Mill who are doing and overseeing his church discipline.

It doesn't need to be the ministry itself.

Yeah.

And yes, you and I, yeah, we definitely talked about that.

And I agree.

I agree with that.

I understand why they did.

You know, Josh was the president and founder and you know, his.

His name was.

Was associated with.

With G3.

And as.

As the one who, who held it all together for a while from a.

From a practical earthly standpoint, that is.

You know, so they.

Yeah, they released a statement.

So the reason they released this statement, again, if you're not up to date, it was discovered that one of these anonymous emails that Josh had.

He emailed Julie Roy's of all people.

All people.

And to.

Who's that?

Julie Royce is a.

She's.

She calls herself a Christian, we'll put it that way.

She professes faith in Christ.

I don't, I don't.

I have a hard time seeing how she possesses that just based on, on the fruit that we see that comes from her and her ilk, we'll put it that way.

But she, she's taken it upon herself to be the, the Christian journalist who uncovers everything that Christians do wrong or perceived to do wrong.

She usually only reports half truths.

And it's, it's.

She.

She puts things out not to edify them.

The, the greater body.

She puts things out to, to.

To divide.

She's gone after Dr.

MacArthur.

She's got a.

She.

She.

She makes a be.

Line for John MacArthur and anyone who supports John.

And so, you know, Josh emailed her.

It was December of 2024.

So just, you know, not even a year ago, you know, saying that Vod was moving to Florida and that, that, that he, you know, there was this GoFundMe that they.

That was set up when Vodi had.

It was discovered and he still has this, by the way, still has a major issue with his heart and cardiovascular system.

So he was living in, in Lusaka, Africa at the time and was trying to get stateside to get this repaired.

And because the doctors here are better than the doctors there.

And Dr.

Tom Maskell, President of Founders Ministry and pastor of Grace Baptist Church there in Florida, to took it upon himself to start a GoFundMe for VOTY and just said, hey, this is going to be.

To cover BOD's medical expenses and any other expenses related to what's going on.

And they raised $1.4 million.

And so supposedly, according to Josh in this email, and I don't have the email pulled up.

I wish I did because I want to be factual.

But he, you know, said that according to his sources, and this is anonymous, Josh, not, not public Josh.

And that he had these sources that told him that this surgery should have only cost 300 grand.

So where did the other $1.1 million go?

And I think people who gave or deserve an answer.

And oh, by the way, he's moving to Florida and going to be a part of Founders Ministries.

So which Josh was ill about that.

For years, but I don't think that was a secret either because he had already partnered with Founders.

Exactly.

Years prior, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah, Exactly.

So.

So G3 released a statement.

I do pulled up and it was a statement from Josh.

And.

And he says in the statement, in the past critique of Vod Bacham and Founders Ministries, I made an unsubstantiated.

I made unsubstantiated and sinful remarks, including leading questions that lacked evidence and called into question the good reputation of my brother, Vodi Bakam.

I was deceived by the deceitfulness of sin and allowed myself to be led down a path that dishonored God and unjustly maligned faithful men and ministries through an unrighteous critical spirit cloaked in anonymity.

The details originally shared with me.

That's an important note.

Were without merit.

The accusations proved to be unfounded, false claims that never should have been used to criticize Vod, Tom Ascol, or Founders Ministries.

And then he said, this week, I met privately with Vodi Bacham and personally asked for his forgiveness, as I plan to do with others in the days to come.

I also humbly ask for.

For your forgiveness, recognizing my actions, that my actions have caused confusion and division.

And then from.

Go ahead.

This came out.

Yep.

And then almost immediately, there was a response.

And it's good that.

It's good that we're getting this out up front.

Right.

Because you see the pattern that's taking place on Josh.

There was a response to that letter from Dr.

Tom Buck, who is on the board of G3.

And this is what Tom Buck said.

He said, I don't speak for the G3 board, but as a board member, I think Josh Bice's statement is not true and an accurate representation of what actually transpired when Josh met with Vodi.

The email below was not yet discovered.

Pause.

I'm gonna put a pin right there for a second.

And that's a good point, Julie.

Roy's didn't jump on this email until it was discovered that it was Josh Bice sending it anonymously.

That's a problem.

All right, so let me keep going.

When Josh met with Vodi, the email below was not yet discovered.

So Josh had not yet repented to Vodi for going to Roy's to get her to investigate him.

In fact, he never told Vodi that he had done this wicked act.

Furthermore, I believe this to be more of the ongoing minimization by Josh of his sin.

He lied about voting, misappropriating funds and lied in his accusation of plagiarism.

He claimed to have evidence for his lies.

It is quite clear that Josh's actions were purely vindictive.

Josh didn't merely criticize Vodi.

He vindictively lied about him and slandered his name.

I'm personally grieved by Josh's lack of true repentance.

And then he.

He put the email in, in the post on Twitter on X, and he said, tom said, I can't approve of this misrepresentation by Josh and his apology.

So.

So, yeah, it's.

It's.

It's bad.

Like.

And, you know, people.

I've seen some people set, you know, say things like, so what.

Why?

You know, like, Dale Partridge said that he needs to be restored to ministry as quickly as possible.

Dale, Partners shouldn't talk.

But.

So.

But here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Let me just.

I'll say there's a lot we can talk about here.

I know Josh personally.

I've been to his home.

I've broken bread with him and his family.

I've done ministry with Josh from a volunteer basis.

When I volunteered for Just Thinking Ministries as the public relations manager, I looked up to Josh, Josh.

In 2023, it was at the Shepherd's Conference, and there were some people from a former church who decided to slander me to.

To friends of ours that are in a different country.

And.

And that was brought to light while I was there.

And I was broken.

I was.

I talked to you, Drew.

I was in tears.

I was.

It was like, ugly cry moment.

And.

And as soon as I saw Josh, I'm like, I need you.

And pulled him aside and told him what was going on, and he's just like, okay, take a breath.

You know, he'll calm me down.

Walk me through that.

And.

And he said, man, if you want to meet with these people.

Because I was going through.

I was.

I was sincerely considering joining Praise Meal at the time.

I've been through the membership classes.

He's like, if you want to meet when we get back and you want to come to the church and do that, then I.

I'll facilitate and.

And we can make that happen.

So I.

I say.

I say all that to say I love Josh.

This is hard, but just like we did with Steve Lawson on Matter of Theology, like, you know, you and I, Drew, have called out people from other camps and stuff like that in the past.

And.

And we have to be.

We can't be partial, right?

We've got to use the same lens and framework to which we looked at.

That is how we look at this and say, this sucks.

This is, to quote Tom Askal, this is wicked.

Yeah.

I mean, in one of these accounts, he.

He said, you know, sending the truth from the Shadows.

And then it said, I am the shadows.

And.

And in one of those accounts, he's going after a fellow Elder, Scott Annual, and.

And his VP of G3.

And then he logs into his personal account, his public account, and defends Josh against himself or defends Scott against himself in order to keep the ruse moving.

Multiple years, multiple confrontations.

This is bad.

This is.

Yeah, this is.

This.

This is heavy.

You know, I feel for Scott.

I feel for Virgil.

Again, a lot of you guys know how close I am to those guys.

Like, I just.

I.

I hate.

I don't use the word hate often.

I hate this.

I mean, you talk to Daryl almost daily.

Oh, yeah, that's my dude, man.

Yeah, that's my guy.

So.

But just for the listeners, like, usually when I talk to Chris, he goes, hey, man, I was just talking to Daryl.

And.

Yeah, so it's.

It's.

It's.

This.

This situation's awful.

It's Because.

And I'm sure there's.

There's a lot we could say about it, but.

But simply, it.

It's.

We have enough to face in this life.

We don't need to attack our brothers right now.

You and I talked about something along the lines of this.

Yeah, draw that out a little bit, what you and I were talking about.

Yeah, man.

This is a.

This is a case of where someone.

Someone elevated the brand over the brotherhood.

This is a case where.

And.

And.

And when I say the brand, I mean, yes, obviously, I.

I think he felt like he was defending G3, but it wasn't about the group.

He put the individual before the group.

He put his.

This was about him.

Him thinking, I've got to defend this.

And anybody who is a perceived threat, which.

Vod Bacham, Tom Askal, Joel Beaky, Virgil Walker Scott, Annual, all the.

John MacArthur, Daryl Harrison, all of those guys and more.

They are not a threat to G3.

They never were.

And so.

But he put the brand over the brotherhood.

That's exactly what he did.

And so often in ministry today, especially when it comes to parachurch ministries, especially when it comes to social media presence, too many professing believers in the Lord Jesus Christ constantly put optics and brand before brothers, and it's.

It makes me want to cuss.

That's how much it frustrates and angers me.

Because if we are brothers, we are like the brotherhood Drew, that you and I have is stronger than the brotherhood I have with my own brother.

If my brother wasn't saved, if my own brother was not.

Was not purchased and And.

And saved by.

By the blood of Christ.

The bond that I have with him, albeit very close, will never be as close as it is with.

With my brothers in Christ.

Ever.

Yeah.

And the problem is, is Josh, in this moment and in these moments, he.

He.

He put the brand over the brotherhood.

He sacrificed the men to his left and right, those that would have his six, those in front of him, he shot them so that he could advance.

And it shouldn't be that way.

And we find that so often in.

In especially we see it on social media, people put their own personal brand over their brothers all the time.

Don't believe me?

And there's nothing wrong with this on the surface, so let me be careful and say this, but there are too many pastors who are too concerned with putting their own faces on their own sermons week after week with the.

The perfect music behind it.

The.

The.

The.

The orchestra and the.

Oh, I gotta make myself look good.

Shut up.

Put your hand to the plow.

Stop looking back.

Stop looking in the mirror and move forward and love your brothers.

Stop putting the individual before the group.

I'm so sick of it.

It's.

I am.

I'm.

I'm so sick of the rules for thee, but not for me.

You know, I mean, let's just be real.

Josh called out anonymous accounts big time on his public account.

Why?

He had multiple.

And then you're gonna go after people who, who, When.

When push comes to shove, when covet happened, when the lockdowns happened, when the social justice happened, when all of that took place.

These are the men who were standing with you and you turned around and shot them.

Why?

Because you're selfish.

Because you only cared about your.

I want this ministry to be as big.

I want G3 to be the next grace to you.

It's not about that, bro.

That.

Any ministry that you.

That, that any of us have, by the way, that include that starts here in the home, is a mercy.

We deserve none of it.

It's not yours to.

To build, not yours to defend.

It's not yours to protect.

No, it's a mercy.

And, and, bro, it happens too often.

It does.

Like to.

Where it's like.

No, no, no, I can't.

I can't.

I can't associate with that guy.

Why?

Oh, he's post mill.

Yeah, right.

No, we can't.

From an optic standpoint.

No, sir.

No, no, no.

We cannot give the.

The appearance.

Right?

We can't give the appearance that, that were.

You know, that's not the brand.

Right?

It doesn't fit with the brand.

I have a buddy of mine right now.

Right now, a few weeks ago, he was interviewing for.

I'm reading.

Highlight some.

Some comments that Kofi is making.

Because he's right.

I wanna.

I wanna.

Yes, Kofi, you're right.

I see that.

We'll get to that.

But I've got a very good friend of mine.

How come I don't see any comments?

It's on YouTube.

Oh, okay.

I see them now.

Yeah, so he's.

Yeah, he's bringing up some good things about genuine repentance.

And I want to get there.

Yeah.

But a buddy of mine who is interviewing at a church.

Okay.

He's interviewing at a church where he has done ministry at this church.

He's done counseling for members of this church because the pastor that's there is too busy.

He's too busy preaching.

I understand the importance of preaching.

Don't get me started on that.

But it's not about your preaching.

It's about the ministry of the Word of God to whom you are a slave to.

And the ministry of the Word of God.

Yes, it may begin in the pulpit, but it doesn't end there.

You better get your butt in the trenches with your sheep, period.

Full stop.

Anyway, but this guy's.

He's interviewed.

He goes through multiple interviews, Right.

Puts me down as a reference.

I get a phone call, you know, was honest, talked about this guy's strengths and opportunities and everything else.

And he didn't get the job.

And listen to why he didn't get the job.

Well, this other guy, he fits better with the culture.

Biblically, you were the better candidate.

That's what they told him.

Biblically, you were the better candidate.

But he fits better with our culture.

That's the problem is our culture should be defined by what is said in the Bible.

We don't need to go outside of that for culture in the church.

Right.

Yeah.

You know, we've.

We've talked about that a lot too, on matter of theology.

And between you and me, just churches who allow the culture to dictate what goes on in the church.

Yeah.

Y.

So I want to pause right here for a moment real quick.

I want Dan to jump in with any thoughts that you kind of may have on the situation, because I know especially apologetic evangelist standpoint, things that kind of stand out with the situation at hand.

Yeah, I.

I was.

I did a little bit of reading about this earlier this week when I saw it come across the.

My feeds.

And I.

I've heard of G3, but I'd never heard of Josh Bice.

Yeah, it's.

It's always really disappointing and saddening when, when you see a leader engage in this kind of behavior.

It's, it's just, it's baffling.

You ask that.

You're asking another white question like, why would you do this?

I mean, and G3 was doing fine.

Yeah, yeah.

We're, we're four months that we were four months away from the national conference.

And you're continuing to see that grow each year.

Each year, Each year, each year.

And, and, and you're attacking these champions, like these people who have championed what, like the, the, the, the, the vision behind G3.

The why, the what have funded it, have been shared it, encouraged it.

And, and, oh my goodness.

Now I want to bring up a comment here from Kofi because I think it's good.

And, and so when, when something like this happens, right.

When it happened with Steve Lawson, me and you were talking, and then you were talking to Daryl, telling them about some of the stuff I was telling you with, you know, the, the painting, the print of the painting I have with Dr.

Lawson.

Right.

The pictures I have with Dr.

Lawson.

Just kind of took those down and all that stuff.

And it was a rem.

In talking to Daryl, you know, you kind of relayed the message to me like, no, keep it as a reminder of your own mortality and your own sinfulness that you do not fall into that.

And so let me bring up this, this comment by Kofi.

He says my only response in all this is to watch my own self.

1st Corinthians 10:12, 1st Timothy 4, 16.

Too easy to fall into self righteousness.

This is a good point too, around all of this.

Right.

Too easy to fall into self righteousness to say, oh, look at what happened with Josh Bice.

Oh, look what happened with Steve Lawson.

I'm, you know, beating my chest.

Thank God I'm not like that tax collector.

Right, Right.

You know.

Right.

And so instead, no, we need to go.

God, that could happen to me, Lord.

But for the grace of God.

Yeah.

Lord, by your grace and your mercy, keep me from that.

Absolutely.

Well, and I think back to Kofi.

That's a good point, bro.

And I love you, by the way.

I miss some Kofi in my life, but you know why?

Because we haven't had a cruciform conference in a while to go speak at with Kofi.

True.

You know, but, but for the grace of God go I.

Right.

And, and, and it absolutely is, it's important to remember I was listening to Tom Ascol the founders released a podcast today where they talked about this for almost an hour.

And one of the things that Tom Askal said.

He said.

He said, but.

But for God's restraining grace, I know that the same seeds of.

Of.

Of that sin are alive in my heart, you know, or can.

Can easily manifest itself in.

In something else.

And so it's.

It's.

It's.

It is first and foremost, a reminder.

Here's.

Here, here.

There are two things that really stood out to me as far as personal introspection.

Here.

It's a reminder to watch our life and doctrine.

Right?

What?

And.

And it's in that order for a reason.

But then I'm.

I was talking to another faithful brother who's a pastor out in Texas, and he just said.

He said, man, it's also a reminder of something that John MacArthur said years ago, and it is something that.

That you and I have talked about and shared multiple times.

But John has always said, take care of the depth of your ministry and let the Lord take care of the breadth, you know, and.

And.

And here's the.

One of the.

A reason where you can look and go.

And this is why.

This is why.

Stop worrying about the breadth and just take care of the depth.

Let the Lord work out all of that.

Okay?

I mean, so what if.

If you don't think this ministry should do this because you're doing that at the same time, and this person goes here, and because this person goes here, now donors are going there.

So what?

Take care of the depth and let the Lord work out the breadth, because he will.

Every single time.

Yeah, every single time.

You know, there was a musician, I said, Christian musician once that everybody always asked this guy, hey, how do I get discovered?

How do I lead?

I want to lead music more on a bigger scale and everything.

And his response for years has always been perfect.

He just said, let the Holy Spirit take care of the booking.

Okay.

Let the Holy Spirit be.

Booking agent.

Is this a guy who was discovered at Texas A M?

Yes.

It was okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

You know, let the Lord take care of that.

You just be faithful.

That's what.

That's what he would always say.

Just.

Just be faithful.

Be faithful where you are.

Be faithful with what the Lord has given you.

And if he chooses to.

Should he will, and he chooses to increase that in quantity and breadth.

Yeah, praise God.

If he doesn't.

Praise God now, we were gonna kind of shift into talking about repentance and true repentance.

And so when we look at the qualifications for an Elder, he must be above reproach.

Right.

So in that's kind of a catch all term, there's a lot of things that fall into.

Must be above reproach.

Yeah.

Something like deception would be one.

Right.

Deceiving people and then lying.

Lying would fall in there too.

Right.

You must be above lying.

You must be above deceiving people.

And that's kind of what we see with, with this, the multiple accounts.

And, and I understand why someone may have an anonymous account, but an anonymous account in order to slander folks fellow brothers and then argue with yourself to give the appearance of defending someone else.

That's just deception and it's sin.

And then lying about it once you're, once you're caught two years ago and then lying about it again.

Yeah.

That is a, that's disqualification, obviously.

But then we have this, the, that second statement you read that came out about the email he sent to Julie Royce which gave the appearance of repentance.

But then, as Josh or Tom Buck pointed out, that's not what happened, which tells us that's not true repentance.

It's very passive.

I mean, sin, we know that sin is a deceiver.

Right?

We are all deceived by sin.

But, but we're also told that sin begins in the heart, you know, and it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a choice that was made.

And so Tom Asko pointed this out in the podcast today when he was talking about Nathan's confrontation of David and David.

David's response was, I have sinned against the Lord.

Period.

There wasn't, there wasn't this, this attempt to pass it off?

I was, I was given unmerited, unsubstantiated facts.

Okay.

You know, but, yeah, and I was deceived by the deceitfulness of sin.

Yes, but you, you sinned before the, before the Lord and, and you sinned against your wife and your kids and your church and your, then G3.

And then, oh, by the way, the millions of people that this affects, it just, it just didn't, it didn't, it didn't sound like taking complete ownership of going, yeah, I, I, I, I did this.

I've sinned before the Lord, and I'm grieved over my sin and will do whatever is necessary to, to make this right before the Lord and before those to whom I sinned against.

You know, it's so like, I think back to something Charles Spurgeon said.

Somebody asked Spurgeon once, when can a man be restored to ministry if.

If.

If he's fallen.

And his response.

I'm paraphrasing, his response is, well, when his repentance is as loud as.

As the sin that caused him to fall.

And that statement, the G3 release, doesn't really seem sound very loud to me, like, hey, yeah, it's me.

So.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

So.

So.

So let's get into what would.

What would genuine repentance look like in that situation?

Right.

Okay.

What would.

First of all, what is repentance in itself?

Well, if you want to know, there's a great book written by the Puritan Thomas Watson called the Doctrine of Repentance.

It's true.

I would encourage every single person to get it and read it and read it slowly, and then once you get done reading it, read it again.

Because in there, Thomas Watson talks about false repentance.

You're.

You.

You just don't want to deal with the consequences, right?

Or you just got caught, so you feel sorry.

Right?

Well, those things aren't genuine repentance.

Genuine repentance causes a brokenness in you.

It causes you to realize that you have displeased your Lord in a vile way.

And in this case, I mean, you've lied to the brethren, you've slandered the brethren, and you have brought reproach upon the name of Christ, whom you set yourself up to be a key figure in a ministry in order to.

As someone who.

Who teaches sound doctrine and proclaims the gospel and points people to Christ, your actions now demonstrate you don't believe those things.

Right.

It's hypocrisy.

Yeah.

Genuine repentance would show a.

A true brokenness over what he has done.

And, and to seek reconciliation with those people.

Not to.

Not to put out a statement that isn't true.

Genuine repentance isn't damage control.

Right.

Genuine repentance is a.

Is foreign.

It's a complete change of thought in mind.

Right?

That's what the word repentance there is like Second Corinthians 7, 9, 11.

That's what that means.

A genuine, just absolute, complete 180, change of mind, reverse course, turn direction.

And.

And.

And, yeah, I mean, it's.

Sorrow is like.

I'm just gonna read it.

Second Corinthians 7, 9 through 11.

Now, I said, Paul says, I now rejoice not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to repentance.

See, there's a difference between being sorrowful, right?

Sorrowful is like, I.

I'm so.

I feel bad I'm sorry, I am.

But that you were made sorrowful to repentance.

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Before, before you keep going.

Look at the, the first part of verse nine.

I now rejoice, right?

There should be a rejoicing that goes on when true repentance is brought forth, because that person who needs to repent understands the weightiness of the sin that they need to repent of and of the holiness of the God they need to come before.

Yes.

Yep.

Yeah, that's a good point, bro.

That's a good point.

You know, I've had brothers confront me in sin, and when, when that confession took place, when they confronted me with that and I immediately confessed, I, I couldn't wait to get it out because I needed to get it out.

Right?

And there was a rejoicing.

There were lots of tears, but there definitely was a rejoicing that took took place.

It's like, okay, now we don't have to dig into this.

More like the weight is lifted now.

Okay, now we're.

Now, now we can move forward, right?

And, and that's very true.

I now rejoice that you so.

But that you were made sorrowful to repentance, for you were made to have godly sorrow so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

Or godly sorrow produces a repentance without regret leading to salvation.

But the sorrow of the world brings about death.

For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow has brought about in you, what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong in everything.

You demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in that matter.

You know, Paul's breaking this down that there's a difference between godly sorrow, to be sorrowful and, and to have that sorrow that leads to actual godly repentance.

Yeah.

Let me put, let me put this comment up real quick by Kathy.

She says repentance also means that I side with God about my sin.

I see it as God sees it in degree with him.

Yep, yep.

Good point, Kathy.

Amen.

Spot on.

Yeah, that's it.

So thank you for reading that about repentance, what that looks like.

Yeah.

One of the questions I have is, okay, we see the situation.

Where do we go from here?

Like, what do we do on the outside?

Right, People.

Because people are seeing this.

Social media is talking about it.

Right?

You got.

I'm sure there's going to be a couple of articles from, from the scandal monger.

I'm sorry, I mean, Julie Royce, you know that are coming out about it.

But like, where do we go from here?

You pray first and foremost.

And I know that that sounds like the cliche answer, but that's what's needed right now.

That's what's needed for Josh and for Carrie and the kids and because he's officially resigned from, from Praise Mill.

I didn't know that until we, until I pulled up that statement at the start of this, this, this episode.

So need to pray for.

I mean seriously, genuinely, genuinely pray for them.

Pray that.

That there would be.

To quote that statement that Praise Mill released and the elders at Praise Mill when they said that there would be genuine fruit in keeping with Josh's repentance and that.

Pray that he.

He would stick with them and, and that they would stick with him and, and, and if true.

And they're the.

Look, they're the only ones who right now can say whether or not.

Can, can accurately inspect whether or not Josh is repentant.

We can't do that.

Right?

We.

We cannot do that based on the information that we have.

Nor should we.

Nor should we.

So we, we pray for, for the elders.

I'm not going to release their names.

I'm sure you probably find it if you wanted to.

If you wanted to pray for them by name.

Scott Annual is one of them.

That's, that's public knowledge.

So I don't know if their information's out there, so I don't want to do that.

You pray for them.

You pray for Carrie, Josh's wife.

You pray for their kids.

You pray for the church.

You pray for Virgil and Laramie and the rest of the staff at G3 as they try to weed through this mess.

I mean, you genuinely, genuinely pray for them.

Avoid the gossip.

Try to avoid.

Gonna be very hard, very difficult to do people.

Yep.

If you've got a mute media, certain words on.

On Twitter and, And ignore things elsewhere, then do it.

Don't.

Don't give ear to it and don't share it if it doesn't come from the elders appraise Mill.

Don't speculate.

You know, I've seen a lot of people say this is now public knowledge.

So I'll go ahead and say this.

I mean There were over 50 pages given to Tom Asal from these anonymous accounts of things that Josh said not just about Tom and founders and Bod, but a whole host of other people.

A lot of people are like, we don't.

That needs to be released publicly.

And okay, maybe, but all that's going.

To do is give Hand to more gossip.

Exactly.

How is that going to edify the bride of Christ?

The bride of Christ in keeping with the fruits of repentance, you know, and.

And, and I have to confess, right, because when you say that, right, over 50 pages of slandering stuff, like, I go, I want to know what was said same.

You know, I'll be honest.

I do too.

But, but at the end of the.

Day, none of my business.

None of my business.

Was it about me?

Yeah.

Was it about me?

I mean, I mean, I, I mean, I've met Josh and he's always been cordial with me.

You know, he.

Right.

He knows me by name.

The visited.

He's always walked, made it a point to walk over to me personally to shake my hand, see how I was doing and things like that.

Do I know whether he may have talked about me behind his back?

I mean, I'm.

I don't think I'm a big enough fish for that, you know, but at the end, I can only speak to my experience with Josh and it's been fine.

And so, you know, at the end of as much as I want to know what was said, I don't need.

To know what was no man.

And that's it.

It's.

It's.

It would be just continuing to further the, the gossip and, and that.

And, but it also, you know, it also makes me think about like the reason I say pray and the reason that, you know, to Kofi's point, right.

To, to keep close watch on yourself.

Like I think about Galatians 6, right.

I've actually preached a sermon on this, but Galatians 6.

Brothers, if anyone's caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness.

Right?

Yep.

That's needed.

Let's not forget that.

And then each one, each of you looking to yourself so that you too will not be tempted.

And so the, the temptation here, I think is going to be.

I think the temptation here could definitely be, you know, to, to fall into sin ourselves in wanting to know more.

Fall into sin ourselves.

And, and to Kofi's point, right?

To.

To be.

To be.

To.

To turn towards self righteousness and to say, well, at least I'm not like that.

At least I didn't do that.

At least I'm not making shipwreck of this and everything else.

It's like, you know, it's.

You need to watch yourself.

You do.

And so, but pray for those men.

Pray for Josh.

I mean that and, and just move forward.

Yeah.

And I tell you what, if there is, be sure your sin will find you out.

If there is unconfessed, unrepentant sin in your life and you know it, confess it to the Lord first and then whoever you need to second and repent of that and confess it.

Yeah, and that's.

But that brings up something else, bro.

You know, the whole brand over brotherhood thing.

Yeah.

And I know when this first came out, people, you know, G3 and Praise Mill said, you know, they didn't know if Josh was permanently disqualified, if this was a permanent disqualification issue.

And I started thinking about this and I started going, oh, and I share this with you and a little bit of a.

Not a long story, but not kind of.

But I wanted to bring this up because I think it's important.

We're called to forgive.

If, if you're harboring anything towards Josh, forgive him.

I don't care if he didn't ask you.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

Until Christ granted you repentance, you didn't ask for his forgiveness either.

So let's, let's, let's.

Let's be real.

So.

But I thought about this and I thought about the importance of, like, especially if you're listening to me, and there's sin in your life, you know, you've gossiped or slandered or liable, committed libel, by the way, is when you slander someone in print, not in the spoken word.

If you've done that to someone and, and, and you haven't confessed that to the Lord and then to them, I would urge you to do so, because here's the thing.

You can forgive.

But I, I think back to.

And this is the, the analogy that I used when you and I were talking about it, right.

I'm friends with guys who were Navy SEALs, and if you know anything about the SEAL community, like, that's the brotherhood, right?

Long live the brotherhood.

That's.

That's one of the, One of the, One of the SEAL isms that you hear all the time.

And they may not like each other, but they're there for one another, Right?

They've got each other's backs all the time.

And they portrayed something that I think is important in this situation.

And we see this playing out right now is in, in the show SEAL Team, there was a guy who was on, on Bravo Team who protected himself.

He made a mistake, but he didn't know he made a mistake.

It led to the death of a British citizen who was an informant.

And, and so they, you know, they're trying to figure out what happened.

They can't figure it out.

One, the, the second in charge, Bravo 2 is like, oh, man, I think I did it.

I.

I meant to throw this type of grenade in the room, but I think I threw a frag and it just exploded the whole room.

And the guy died.

It's my fault.

He's going to have to take fall for it.

That means he loses his trident, he's off the team, he's out of the military.

Complete change of life is going to disrupt everything.

When it was the younger guy, the new guy who couldn't see into the room, who threw the frag grenade and killed the guy, but he didn't say anything.

He was going to let the other guy take the fall.

And so they had this tribunal and they're coming together and it was like, hey, you know, the guy who was.

Who was going to take the fall, the second in charge, like they were gonna.

He.

It was up to him whether or not they were gonna kick this guy off the team.

And he goes in front of the guy, he's like.

He's like, hey, man, I remember what it was like.

I know what it's like to be in that kind of situation.

He's like, I forgive you.

I forgive you.

And he hugs him.

And then you see his face change, though.

He goes, but I don't trust you.

And I can't let you go outside the wire with this team ever again because we don't trust you.

Right?

And so while we have to remember that, yes, we forgive, and forgiveness should be immediate, and often one of the consequences of this is broken trust is broken trust.

And.

And so I share all that.

To say that's difficult to rebuild.

And the reason I'm sharing that now is because I think about when it comes to confessing sin to one another, I think we all have maybe experienced that.

I know I have, Drew.

You know I have.

Where you can.

Where someone knows the scent.

Like sins, that of yours, that is, it should be kept private because it was a private matter.

But sins of yours that get out and get talked like there's.

There's a lack of trust.

And so there may be some trepidation in you confessing your sin to one another.

Like, I understand that I would challenge you, though, to find.

If you can't confess your sin to your pastor, that's not a good thing.

I won't tell you to go find a new church, but I'll just say it's not a good thing, right?

But forgive yes, forgive.

But trust takes a long time to rebuild, and I understand that.

So I thought about that as it relates to Josh.

Like, even if he's not disqualified permanently and can do ministry again, it's like, well, who among those brothers is ever going to trust him again?

Right, Exactly.

Right.

I know I've said a lot right there.

Word salad.

But it just.

Well, trust is a big thing in ministry.

Right.

And especially as a pastor, because you've got, when you're dealing with your sheep, you've got people that are confiding in you, and those are things that, that they don't want to be made public knowledge.

Right.

Whether it be sin or whatever.

And so you have to be able to be led by someone that you can trust.

And once that trust is broken.

Yeah.

It's difficult to rebuild when someone who is supposed to be in a leadership position breaks that bond.

Yeah.

You, you, you start looking at them a little sideways now when they say something.

Right.

Or when you say something.

Right.

Yeah.

I just told you something like, is that going to end up being used against me in the future?

Right, right.

Or it's, you know, make sure I can see both of your hands.

Right.

So that I know, like, what this hand is doing and what this hand is doing.

That's good.

So let me, let me bring up a comment here by, by Brad Matlock.

What's up, Brad?

He says, when Steve Lawson was exposed, we said God was purifying his bride.

I have to believe this is the same thing.

100.

God will get glory out of all of this.

100%.

Yeah.

And that's the thing.

Right.

So we, you were talking about in the beginning of the show when we first got on this topic, that we would call this out in someone who's not our, in our camp.

Right.

That's not really.

In the reformed theology camp, we would call this out on false teachers, on someone that we might not agree with.

We would call this out.

So we must call it out in our, in our camp when it happens.

And this is the Lord purifying his bride and telling us this person needs to go.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was, I mean, that was one of the first things I said when I found out on the 12th was as, I mean, the Lord continues, you know, continues to say, no, I, you know, I mean, you think about, like, you think about that too.

I mean, you think about the, the opportunities that both of those men had to, to, to confess that sin or.

To, or to guard five years and then we're talking Someone else with another two years, two or three years that was initially already confronted with this at one time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

So.

Yes, it's.

It's.

I mean, the Lord gave.

The Lord gave opportunity there when, you know, Josh was first confronted by his elders and said, you know, hey, is this you to go?

Yeah, yeah, it was.

Yeah.

And then to, you know, to.

Because I think at that point, again, I don't want to speak for them.

I don't want to speak for the situation, but I think, you know, at that point, you could.

You could go, okay, well, we need to, you know, we need to.

We need to handle this.

And our first and number one concern is your soul and the state of sanctification in your life and putting that sin to helping you put that sin, death.

You know, Galatians 6:2, helping you bear that burden.

So we need to.

You need to step aside from.

From being in the lead pastor role and step aside from your role at G3 and, you know, but.

But we're gonna.

We got you, you know, for it to go along, go on for so long and.

Right.

You know, confronted multiple times, and that's.

That's hard.

Dan, I know you.

You told us that you've got to go in a couple minutes, but I want to make sure that you.

To kind of get your thoughts out as well.

Yeah.

As the more you guys talk about this, the more bad memories come up.

I went to school, middle school with a very prominent pastor who was.

Wow.

Who wound up getting, you know, defrocked and then went on to, you know, have multiple, you know, multiple occasions of infidelity.

I'm not going to mention his name, but, you know, I.

I knew this kid.

I kind of grew up with him, and.

And then that happened and, you know, lost track with him, you know, until I heard about him and I saw.

Saw him on Twitter, and then I see about all these things that that had happened that he'd been involved in.

And then there was a.

What was it back in.

There was a.

It was a.

There was a big.

There was a big.

A big.

A very big church that imploded here in the.

On the east side of.

Of Seattle in the Seattle area.

And when that exploded, that.

That.

That church was actually kind of a.

Kind of sort of a.

A.

A daughter church of the church that I.

That I.

My.

My.

My family and I attended for about 22 years.

So I didn't know the pastor himself, but there was a connection with our church.

And as it turns out, you know, my Wife was wanting a new chicken coop for our.

For our.

For our birds.

And we looked.

She looked.

She was looking on Craigslist for.

For months and months and months.

And I just shot down everything that she threw at me because it was either just janky or just way, way too much.

So eventually she found one, and.

And I liked it, and I said, let's go for it.

So I went to go.

I went to go find this.

To go pick up this.

This chicken coop from this guy.

And as I'm where he's helping me load up the chicken coop, I notice he's got Hebrew tattooed on his wrist.

I'm like, what kind of guy has Hebrew tattooed on his wrist?

And he's got, like, an arm sleeve and everything.

He's all tatted up.

I've got one on my wrist.

Yeah.

And I was just.

But I'm looking at his other wrist, this guy.

But you're not talking to me.

Are you talking about me?

Are you?

Because I've got Hebrew on my wrist.

Not this time around.

Okay.

Okay.

And so I said, what's the Hebrew on your wrist say?

And he says, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

And I said, oh, and fools despise instruction.

Isn't that how the rest of the verse goes?

And he goes, yeah, that's one of them.

But, you know, and so we got to talking, and as it turns out, he was the worship pastor at this big church.

And the reason why he was selling his chicken coop is because the house that they had bought just six months prior, they had to sell, and they were moving back to another state.

And so when I heard about all this, I was just like, oh, yeah, I'd heard about this letter that had been leaked from, you know, that he wrote, you know, challenging the elder board and saying, hey, you guys are not in keeping with the gospel.

Right?

You need to, you know, we need to get this, you know, write our ship.

And somebody.

Somebody leaked that letter, and that's what caused the church to implode.

And so he said, did you read it?

And I said, no, no, because, frankly, I didn't want to read it because it was never addressed to me.

Right.

I want no part of it.

And he says, well, it's actually okay.

A lot of good has come of it.

But to kind of bring the story to a close.

After my last load of picking up stuff from him, I prayed with him and one of his daughters in his driveway.

And one of my prayers for him was that.

That his heart would not grow hard against the Lord because of all that had happened.

So it seemed like he was taking a stand for righteousness and the purity of the gospel and he had to pay the price for it.

And, you know, they had to move well now.

So now the part of the bad memories is that, you know, not only did that happen, but now it seems like he's walked away from the faith.

So, you know, I could, you know, we could, you know, draw all kinds of, you know, inferences from that.

But.

And in my, my discipleship group that I was in for 12 years with my senior pastor, I saw so many guys who were in that discipleship group being discipled by our pastor every Monday night for over a decade.

And some of them, you know, you know, bunch of, A few of them abandon their wives and stuff.

And it's painful.

And so listening to you guys talk about this guy and having a connection with him, I hate to invoke Bill Clinton, but I feel the pain.

And so it's been really tough to sit here and listening to you guys go back and forth.

And so, yeah, that's why, that's why I haven't said much because I'm just over here just kind of going, oh, man, it's, it's hard, you know, and my, you know, my, my heart breaks for not so much the, the men who were involved in this, but the, but everybody around them.

Wives, children, congregants, right?

How many people in the church are going to have their hearts hardened by this?

Right?

That breaks my heart, you know, and.

We, Chris and I, we have friends that we used to go to church with that when they.

So we used to go to church and then we kind of one by one left that church that had, for reasons that had to do with that pastor at that church.

And they kind of ended up at Praise Mill.

And the reason they ended up there, one reason, was because of Josh Bice, because of his preaching, because of how they had things structured, right.

With the regulative principle of worship, with how they did the, the new members classes, right.

No matter who you are, when you want to join Praise Mill, you have to go through new members classes.

And it starts with the sufficiency of scripture, right?

And then it just, it just kind of walks through in there, you know, the attributes of God and worship and these things.

And so, yeah, it's, there's a lot of people there that are going to be hurt because, you know, Josh had set that up as the pastor of that church.

So, yeah, I would, I would like to echo your Guys, your, your admonition from earlier to, you know, pray for those involved and pray for those, you know, who are going to be in the ripple effects of all this because I think they're probably going to need the prayer even more than those who are, you know, actively involved in, in the sin.

So.

Yeah, and I think that's a key point that a lot of people aren't realizing because a lot of people are jumping to, oh, well, what does this mean for G3?

Right, well, that's a secondary issue.

The primary issue is, well, what does this mean for the flock that was sitting under his leadership in the local church?

You know, I think that's a good point that you're bringing up that, that people just aren't taking into account.

Yeah.

And I know that, you know, I'm a, I, I'm a big fan of John MacArthur and, and you know, Brad, Brad Matlock here earlier, you know, noted that when Steve Lawson was, was, was caught and called out, you know, we said he were, we're purifying the bride.

That may be true, but man, I hate to hear that because it almost sounds like, eh, you know, thank God I'm not like that sinner.

You know, I hope that that wasn't the, the, the, the, the attitude that.

Was intended there, but no, so, so if I could speak in for Brad, I, I think what he's getting at is people who, who have been put in those leadership positions.

We look at the Steve Lawsons and we say, wow, this is someone that I learned a great deal from.

This is someone that I learned a lot of church history from.

I learned how to preach from.

I learned how to exegete scripture and exposit scripture and how to, how to craft a sermon in order to deliver it to people.

And the, at least five years, you know, the last five years he was really living a double life.

And so the Lord has removed him from that place and now he is a, a member of a local church, which it took about five months before a statement was actually put out by Steve Lawson that indicated that he was a part of a local church, that he was being discipled by the leadership of that church, and he was going through necessary steps for reconciliation with his wife and with his family.

And I think that's absolutely great.

So we don't, so it's not one where we like kind of cast them out and say the, the Lord's purifying his bride and getting, and getting these people out, but it's removing people from a position of leadership, making them go through the necessary steps of church discipline and reconciliation and repentance so that they can be brought back into the fold as Christ's sheep.

So.

So Dr.

Lawson knows he will never be a preacher again.

I think Josh Bice understands he will never be in that position of pastor again.

But.

And I haven't seen anything from Dr.

Bice, but my prayer is hopeful that he is going to go through the necessary steps of church discipline and reconciliation with his brothers and repentance so that he may be brought back into good standing with the church and into the fold of Christ.

So I think that's what Brad's getting at right there.

All right, well, on that happy note.

Yeah, so that would be something to rejoice, even though, right.

It's a weighty matter.

It's.

It's difficult to hear and.

And to talk about.

There is rejoicing that can take place in what the Lord is doing.

And so all we can do is.

Is pray, and we can be hopeful in that and then rejoice when we get word or we get news or updates that repentant, true repentance has taken place, that they are returned to good standing within the church.

Right.

They.

They can take the Lord's Supper and be in.

In good fellowship.

Right.

Those are things we can rejoice in.

Yeah, I think that's.

That's.

That's important to point out.

You know, there's the.

The blood of Christ covers.

Covers all sins.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, yeah, we don't.

We don't cast them out.

We want to restore those brothers.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, guys.

Thanks a lot for.

Good to meet you, man.

Yeah, good to meet you too, Chris.

Always good to have you on, Dan.

Love you, brothers.

Take care.

Love you, too, bud.

Yeah, that's a good point, man.

And that's.

I.

I know I put it in the.

In the chat back behind the scenes, but the.

The goal of purification is always restoration.

It's the washing of the water of the word to purify the bride.

And.

And I love what you said there, man.

By.

By.

Like, if I saw either one of those men or anyone, by the way, to whom has.

Has been under church discipline in any way, shape or form, I.

Wrap them up, man.

Give him a hug.

I love you, brother.

Like I do.

I'm.

I'm praying for you.

I'm here for you, like.

And that's something else, too, man.

Can we.

Can we talk about something for a second?

Go for it.

Like in this.

Send it.

Using my words now.

Using my words.

Against me.

Like, oh, this is.

It's gonna be not.

I hope it's not controversial and I hope people don't read into what I'm not saying and further into what I am saying, but something that can't be ignored today.

And, and you.

And I, I think of.

I know I have experiences.

I won't speak for you, but we have to remember something that, that why, yes, it's important to.

It's.

It's vitally important to the soul of the believer to be.

To have a local church body to physically gather with.

Can we, can we be careful that we are not making an idol out of the quote unquote local church so much that we ignore the big C church?

So draw that out a little.

The reason, the reason I'm saying that is because, I mean, there have been those in our camp who, you know, if they're.

If they know of a brother or sister in need and it doesn't matter what that need.

I'm not saying it's a material need.

I'm just saying some sort of need.

It's like, well, nope, sorry, I can't help you.

You're not part of our local church.

Okay, hold up.

Yeah.

You know, like, and so, so I want to be careful.

Yeah.

I mean, I hear what you're saying, because that kind of hits home, like, going, no, you can't be a part of this men's group because you're, you're not in our church anymore yet.

No, exactly.

But.

Okay, am I a brother of Christ?

Like, I mean, do I.

I profess to be a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ?

I hope my life reflects the fruit of one who possesses that faith that's been granted unto me.

And so.

So just because I'm.

I'm not on.

Just because I'm not on the spreadsheet.

Yeah, I'm not on your spreadsheet.

Not on your spreadsheet.

You're not gonna.

I don't know.

I've been, I've been.

I've been thinking about that a good bit and.

Because admittedly, like, it's.

There's a lot more into this situation that I'm not going to get into here.

You know, but there was.

There was a long time that I was searching for a church home, and it wasn't until pretty recently that I found one.

Right.

And I mean, and then you.

You start thinking about the circumstances that went into that.

Yeah.

And it's.

It's pride issues.

More pride issues that came to light.

Yeah.

And so it's like you know, it's like we need to be.

I don't know.

Like, that also brings up another point.

It's like just being careful.

Don't just, don't just, don't just go to church to check it on, to put it on.

You know, it's got to check off a list.

I gotta, right?

I gotta check that off the list.

Well, it's like, no, there should be a desire to gather and you love, you love the saints that you gather with and that.

I mean, they're.

They're your people.

Those are, those are your people.

Right.

Like, like, I get that.

But you know who else is my people?

Like Chris Hunholtz.

Yeah.

Who lives in Nevada and I'm in Georgia.

My brother Alex Rodriguez, who's in Illinois, but I'm in Georgia.

Right.

Like, they, they're also my brothers.

Just because they're not on the same email list that I'm on doesn't mean that.

Hey, man, sorry.

You have a need, go to your local church.

Yeah.

It's like, well, can I meet that need as a, as a fellow believer?

If I can meet that need, regardless of what it is, I should do that.

I should do good to all, especially those in, to those in the household of faith.

And now, you know, people talk about social media right now and, and they're talking about like, hey, you know, social media is just such a bad hold up.

Like, like there are also benefits.

Right.

I have, I have people that I talk to every single day that, that I was introduced to through social media.

Social media.

Yeah.

And those are my brothers.

Those are my foxhole buddies.

Right.

Like, like, hold up, like there.

It isn't all bad.

It's a tool.

I think you and I have talked about this, right?

It's a tool.

Just like a fork is.

Yeah, right.

It's a tool.

Just like a gun is or a knife.

It's a tool.

Yeah.

Use it accordingly.

Yeah.

A hammer is a great tool, but it can also be used for evil.

Sure.

Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

Well, hey, but do we blame the hammer?

You know, you know, it's.

It's really funny, man.

Like you, you and you know, speak it.

I don't, I don't.

Want to, I don't want to do that, but I was gonna say, I've seen Josh do that because I have, I've seen him use social.

Like talk about the people that just want to build a platform.

And I'm like, hey, buddy, but it's a tool.

Use it accordingly.

It can be used for defense or offense.

It can be used to build or tear down.

What do you.

What are you going to use it for?

You know, and that's nicely to talk about kind of platform building and the local church, you know, because my wife and I, we joined a local church because we were.

I mean, we were going through the same thing.

Right.

Trying to find a local church.

Right.

And we joined a local church last year.

Two seconds.

If you're in that boat of where you're searching for a church home and you haven't found one yet, can I just encourage you that you're not a black sheep?

Right.

Because I gotta be honest, I was made to feel that way.

I was asked to stop volunteering for certain ministries because I was searching for a church home and they knew I was searching for a church home and they knew why and they knew the situation.

And some of the.

And some of that situation is out of your control.

But I was made to feel like I was.

There was something wrong with me.

Like I had a.

Like I had a scarlet C instead of a scarlet A because I didn't have a church.

Yeah.

I had a scarlet LC cross my Everything.

You're not right.

Is your desire to gather.

Is the answer to that question is yes.

Are you diligently searching?

If the desire.

Answer that question is yes, then keep going.

You're not.

There's nothing wrong with you.

I mean, if you're.

If you're not going because there's unconfessed sin in your life and you don't want to deal with it, that's a different story.

If you're not going just because I just want to sleep.

Right.

I just don't want to.

Yeah.

And that's a different story.

But if your desire and you.

There's a yearning and a longing to gather with your brothers and sisters physically on the Lord's day, then be encouraged and.

And just know you're not.

There's nothing wrong with you.

You're not.

Oh, no, we can't.

We got distance.

That's what's about brand over brotherhood, right?

Yeah.

Oh, no.

Right.

We're a ministry about the local church and equipping local churches.

But hey, here's this guy who's.

He's searching for a church home and he hasn't found one yet.

And so.

But.

But because of that, we're going.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

So.

So my wife and I joined a local church last year and the pastor, I know the pastor, and we had met a couple times prior and we had visited, you know, several times, and he knew that I had a platform.

He knew that I had podcast platform.

He knew some of the people that I was connected with, like Andrew, Justin Peters, Jim Osmond, you know, all them.

And one of the times we met and I.

And I really told him, I was like, you know, I'm not really looking to be in ministry.

Right.

Like, I do this to help out Andrew, because how many times have I said, I'm done with podcasting.

Like, I'm just.

I'm quitting podcasting.

Right.

You have said it a lot.

And so the goal is to.

Because I don't.

I'm not really concerned about platform building and.

And creating a public ministry for that.

Nope.

And.

But he.

He asked me, he said, well, if you do, where would your first priority with that ministry be?

And I said, well, any ministry I start, my first priority is going to be to bring that to the local church.

Is this something that I.

That will benefit first the local church and the people that I'm immediately serving with.

And then if it branches out from there, we decide to take it out from there, it would be under the authority of that local church, but it would have a far more reaching aspect.

Right.

As public ministry does.

And then the more we started talking, the more we started talking about developing things that we would do in the local church.

But then invite others from the community.

Right.

So from other local churches within the community, whether that be some type of training, some type of teaching, whatever, so that they can be edified.

Right?

Yeah.

I mean, even discussing Q A nights on Sunday nights, and anyone in the community or any local church or local church that, you know, we can invite them to come ask questions, and then we would answer them from Scripture.

Yeah.

So that's sort of the thing like.

Like we talked about.

Like, we don't care that you're not a member here, but if we can serve you in any way, we will serve you.

Yeah.

You know, in that capacity.

Yeah.

Here's a question.

Here's a question.

The.

I think.

I think you and I just talked about it, but I'd love to know those watching, what they.

What they think about this.

And while people are responding, there are a couple comments that I saw on YouTube that.

Couple that were off topic, but one that was kind of on topic.

But.

But let me ask you a question.

Like, in this situation, like, how do you guys feel about the national conference being canceled?

And I guess maybe that's the wrong way to ask.

It is, what do you think about it?

Not how do you feel?

Because feelings are.

Yeah.

Not the, not the thoughts on.

The conference being canceled.

Conference.

Yeah.

And that's.

I wrestled with that one.

But then where I landed was.

I mean, and I said this earlier.

There are things about this that we don't know, right?

There's.

There's levels of this.

Tom Askal said today there were over 50 pages of, of things said about.

And Tom Askel said there were about people who were scheduled to speak at G3 this year.

You know, so it's like, it's, you know, what do you guys think about that?

Do you think that was the right move?

I had, I heard.

I saw some people go.

Some people ask the question like, hey, why not just kind of reframe it, right?

This, the topic this year was going to be spiritual warfare.

You know, the, the greatest battle.

My brothers and sisters listening to my voice, whether it's live or later, the greatest battle that you and I will ever face on this side of eternity is not the same battle that charismatics think we face with, with, with demons and, and stuff like that, but the greatest battle that we face is with our own flesh and with our own sin.

Not saying that there isn't a spiritual realm that, you know, Paul talks about that in Ephesians 6 and the need to put on the armor of God.

But the greatest battle that we'll face is against our own sin.

That's true spiritual warfare.

Right?

And so when it first happened and they said the conference was canceled, that was something my wife and I talked about.

It's just like, oh man, four months.

Like that means you guys are losing money.

I mean, there had to be a deposit on the venue put down.

You know, people have already booked travel and, and hotels.

Yeah, absolutely.

Rental cars, etc, so on and so forth.

So it's like, you know what I mean?

I kind of thought it would be an interesting opportunity to come together and go, go, hey, you know, this, this is the result of true spiritual warfare.

And what an.

I mean, I kind of thought it would be an amazing opportunity to have the body of Christ come together and you know, for Virgil and Scott and Laramie and, and the board and the elders of G3 and Praise Mill to get up there and be like, hey, we are sorry, like we're carrying this with you.

And, and what an opportunity for again, the big C church to, to come around them and come up underneath them and, and depending where Josh was and repentance and stuff like that, would it be appropriate for him to be there and not, not in a speaking role, not in a leadership role, but In a, you know, in a, in a restaurant restorative role.

Sure.

Of just, you know, a healing role.

I don't know.

Like, I just, I'm not saying that they should have done that.

I'm not saying they shouldn't.

I'm, I'm not trying to judge what they've done because I wasn't there.

I don't know what they know.

I don't, I, I don't feel why it's heavy for me.

I don't feel, Feel what they feel.

Right.

You know, two of those, two of those guys in particular were attacked by him anonymously, you know, Virgil and Scott.

And it's just like.

Yeah, I mean, I get why it was canceled, but I was like, oh, man, that would have been an amazing opportunity for the church to show the power and the, the beauty of the gospel.

Well, I mean, I, I text you the other day and I was like, why not get Daryl, Virgil, get them together and say, hey, all you people who already have non refundable plane tickets and stuff, try, you know, you're four months out, try to schedule something, you know, and do like little breakfast, lunch, dinner, book study or Bible study, something on a topic.

Prayer time.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm seeing some comments now.

Like Kathy Deming said, I think it should have been canceled.

And, and Kathy, I don't disagree.

Right.

I, I don't disagree at all.

It seems like the more that's, the.

More it comes out.

I'm like, oh, yeah, it needed to be.

Right?

I mean, when you, when you say 50 pages of stuff, that's kind of against speakers.

Yeah.

That were scheduled to speak this year.

You know, all of those speakers kind.

Of go, no, I'm done.

I'm good.

Yeah, I'm done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then Melissa, Melissa Owens said, I feel bad for those who were going to speak and already.

Yeah.

Already had plane tickets booked.

And travel just because, like, I travel some for work and I always fly Delta because I'm in Atlanta and unless you pay for refundable Maine, which is quite a bit more than just Maine, you know, you get a credit and you can, you know, use that for what you need to.

But, but yeah, I fly Comfort plus, bro.

I, I do when I can.

And I have enough miles now to where I can.

Well, see, mine's on my business on my company card, so.

Okay, we'll see.

There you go.

So what's really funny, we went to.

Because we just went to Reno for, for work and we were there for like four or five days.

But the only flight we could get when we needed to leave the last seats available were because there's only one flight that goes to Reno.

Oh, wow.

From Atlanta.

First class.

That, that's, that's direct flight.

It was first class.

Yeah.

So.

So we got to fly first class there and back.

Flying high, bro.

Flying high.

It was pretty cool because you know when you fly business or comfort plus you, they only come around with the snacks and the drinks.

Like when they come around when you're flying first class, it's like, hey, can I get a refill on, on this ginger ale?

Like, hey, can I get a snack over here?

It was pretty nice.

I'm not gonna lie.

I was kind of spoiled after that.

I'll be going.

Can we fly first class every time?

I know, right?

But, but yeah, we had.

I mean, my pastor and one of the other deacons was looking to go to G3 this year.

And so now if you're kind of local, right, and you want to go to a conference, there is a conference that's going to be taking place in Tennessee and that's Jeffrey Rice.

Jeffrey Rice's conference, the Road Map to Revival.

And so with that, the speakers are going to be James White, Andrew Rapaport, Michael Schultz.

I'm not familiar with him.

Jeremiah, I think he's the apologetic dog.

Keith Bosky, Jonathan Burris, Claude Ramsey and Jeffrey Rice.

And so they have actually put out the speaking the topics and speakers what they will be speaking on out there.

So yeah, and supposedly like tickets are super cheap.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean that's something.

I may take off work and you know, they're only, I think they're only like an hour and a half away from me.

So drive up there for that and it'd be a good time.

So let's get into some sponsors while we're here.

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So she has received that when I first started actually getting into the waters of fragrance.

But with the beef tallow body butter, we're going to actually be making one that is cocoa butter cashmere fragrance scent to it.

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All right, let me take that off of there.

All right, Chris, now let's kind of shift gears a little bit in talking about this, because there have also been a lot of comments in relation to G3 that the conference movement, big conferences, they need to die.

They just need to be ended.

We need to end the conference circuit.

How do we approach that?

That's a hard one.

And the reason I say that is because it's a tool.

It can be.

Can be.

Right?

And, And I.

I'm immediately thinking of a couple of things, a couple of arguments that I've heard against conferences.

And, and some of these points I agree with.

It does tend to foster that celebrity culture.

Yeah, I think.

I think when people are talking about that, I think their main point is not the conference itself.

It's more directed at celebrity pastor culture.

Yeah.

And so, I mean, it's.

It, It.

It.

It's a, it's an environment that can definitely foster that.

And, But I think.

I also think that I also see the, the great, the great benefit.

Like.

Okay, so.

So a couple things.

It.

It fosters that.

It can foster that celebrity pastor culture.

And then it can also lead to those who attend those conferences to engage in comparing their pastor's abilities to that of the.

Those conference speakers.

Right.

So.

And.

And it's, you know, it's.

It's.

So it becomes a matter of framework for the individual.

But then you.

But then as, as those who put on the conferences, you also have to weigh that.

And you also have to consider Paul, when Paul talked about not, you know, thinking.

Thinking through the weaknesses of others, The, The.

The shallow end versus the deep end.

And Paul, you see him talking about in his letters that, you know, it's not a sin to eat a certain type of meat, but if you eat that meat and it causes your brother to stumble, that's when it becomes a sin.

And so you.

You have to weigh that, going, okay, but the gospel is going forth and people are getting saved, and you have to weigh that.

It's all also, you know, edifying and strengthening, and we're seeing people grow and all that stuff.

And it's like, yes, yes to all of those things.

But, but.

But we.

We also have to ask the question, so are we saying that.

That God Couldn't do that in the lives of those individuals outside of conferences.

Because it should be the church, the churches that they're going to, where that takes place.

It should be in their own personal study.

And that.

That's why.

Look, man, I'll be honest with you.

I will.

And I've said this.

I think I've said this publicly.

If I'm not.

Hey, here it is.

Like, I am wholeheartedly against paywalls when it comes to ministry.

Ministries putting content.

Ministries putting content that comes from the word of God behind a paywall.

It's like, no, you gotta.

You gotta.

You gotta pay for this wisdom that the Holy Spirit gave me.

You got to pay for it.

It's like, no, no, give it away.

Yeah, give it away.

And that's one of the things, because we were talking about, like, the G3 plus, apparently, right?

You know, I can go on YouTube and I can find messages from past G3 conferences for free.

But if I want to listen to them on the G3 app, I've got to pay for the app in order to get access to it, right?

But even.

I mean, and even that, when I look at that, I go, okay.

Because part of the claims from.

We'll say Anonymous, Josh.

Was that some ministries were ripping off G3.

Well, G3 plus is nothing but a ripoff of Canon Press Plus.

That's all it is.

They took this G.

Canon Press did it first and G, and then put it behind all their content.

Most.

I won't say all.

I put most of their content behind a paywall, and then G3 came behind them and did the exact same thing.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I agree.

Like, this content that's supposed to be building and edifying the church should not be behind a paywall.

Which is great when you think about, like, Shepherd's Conference.

Right?

Yeah.

You got to pay to go to the conference, but then you have to wait a little bit for the.

The content to come out on the Shepherd's Conference app.

But it's.

Or not the app, but the.

The podcast.

But it's free.

But it's free.

And here's here, here.

This goes back to something I said earlier.

Take care of the depth.

Let the Lord take care of the breadth.

When.

And this is this.

I've heard Phil Johnson talk about this when Grace to you made the decision to take all of John's sermons and put them on the website for free and to give that and to be very, very generous with.

With that content.

Because, yes, it is scripture, but it's Technically.

Right.

Let's be real.

Right.

Let's call balls and strikes right down the middle.

Right.

That's John's intellectual content, legally.

Yep.

And he.

It was his choice.

And that of Grace to you that said, nope, we are not going to charge people for this.

We're going to give it away for free.

And you know what the crazy thing about that is?

And look at what grace to you's done.

Yeah, exactly.

Because who comes in who sees that and then comes in behind that donors, because they go, we want you to be able to keep putting it for free.

So here, let us help pay for it, bro.

Yeah, and.

And you bring up a good point.

You brought up Shepherd's Conference, like, so the One Conference.

Anybody who knows me well knows that's the one Conference.

I don't.

I used to do that.

I used to be like, okay, I want to go to this one and that one and this one and that one.

And then it was 21.

That right after all the COVID stuff.

Well, no, it was before that.

It was like.

No, it was right before that.

It was 2020.

I was like, I just.

I don't want to do that anymore.

I want to go to one.

And the one conference I want to go to is chefcon.

Not.

Because I think that I'm gonna have some kind of some special enlightenment, because it's Grace Community church and John MacArthur, and it's not.

It.

It's not it at all.

If.

If you know anybody that's ever been to the Shepherd's Conference, even just once, you understand what it's about.

It is.

And Melissa Owens brought this up.

It's the fellowship.

Yep.

And the edification and the joy that I receive from being around 5,000 men from all over the world all rowing in the same direction.

I can't.

Everybody's like, oh, it's $500.

Well, worth it.

Every penny is worth it.

Well, technically, every single one.

Well, for the.

To get into the conference.

Yeah.

You got to get to California and that.

Gotta get there.

You gotta have a place to stay, a car.

Yeah, that's a little more.

Which is why I can't do it, you know?

But every year, dude, every year, Brandy's like.

She's like, you should go.

You should go.

I'm like, yeah, I didn't go this.

Year, and it killed me.

I didn't go this year, and it killed me.

It was.

It was really hard.

It was really hard.

It was really hard.

Hold on, I gotta put this up here and cheap.

Plus the singing at Shepcon is beautiful.

Look, y' all, y' all.

The first time we went and we're sitting in the auditorium, the sanctuary, with how many can fit in there?

3,000?

3, 500.

3,500 men.

And we're singing the hymns from the Hymns of Grace.

Loud, loud wall shaking from the vibrations.

You had Mark Dever sitting in front of.

Took his phone out, and he couldn't.

They all do but record the entire congregation singing.

I mean, not just singing, but thundering.

Yeah.

The praises to God.

Right.

There's a difference between singing and thundering.

And everyone in there was thundering the praises to God in.

In 2024.

How we ended the conference was they brought.

Technically, it was.

They brought everybody in from all the overflow venues and to.

It was so the audit.

The worship center was packed.

I mean, you couldn't move.

And we ended the conference by singing is he worthy?

And you can go find the video of it on YouTube.

Doesn't do it justice.

Yeah.

Does not do it justice to hear the people of God singing the praises of God to the glory.

Glory of God according to the word of God at that level, Words.

Words are not.

The English language does not articulate it well enough.

Yep.

And then Kathy Deming just said, yes, Shepherd's conference is uniquely blessed and used by God.

Amen.

Yep.

It absolutely is.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

And I'll say this, too.

They do their dead level best to.

Not to try to break down that celebrity culture wall.

They do.

And.

And let me just give you an example.

If it were up to John MacArthur.

I've heard him say this.

If it.

He.

He would.

He would spend.

He would be out with the men.

But the reason he doesn't is because he doesn't want it to be about him.

He doesn't want it to be, oh, there's John.

We got to get over there.

We got to get.

No, no, no.

I want these men to be with each other and not being concerned about where am I?

Where is this person?

Where is that person?

And that.

That's the only reason he doesn't do that.

He has to be.

He has to be restrained almost physically from doing that.

Like just man.

So, like, they do their best.

They really do.

Now, some of the other speakers are out.

They're at book tent.

They're eating meals with people.

You know, they're there all the time.

Yep.

Let me get some.

Get some comments in here.

Melissa's.

She said, I think the conferences are nice for fellowship and edification, but we should be careful not to turn it into something that resembles high school clicks.

I think that kind of speaks a little bit to what we're talking about here.

Right.

And that reminds me of what something Tom Haskell said on that podcast today.

He's.

He said.

He said you've got.

You've got a bunch of people who are just acting like a bunch of immature girls.

And when I say that, I mean people from both sexes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah, very, very good point.

Kathy says there seems to be too many competing conferences and it can lead to distraction away from the local church.

And I think this is kind of getting.

This touches a little bit into what you were saying about the celebrity pastor culture.

And you start comparing the celebrity pastor or preacher to your own local church preacher.

And so I think that is a dangerous thing to do because, you know, man, I love listening to some of these guys.

Right.

V.

B.

Paul Washer, James White.

Right.

I love listening to some of these guys and the things they have to say.

Even though Paul Washer kind of says, you know, almost is almost saying the same thing every single conference he preaches at now.

You know, so.

But there.

Those guys are not the men that are over my soul.

They're not the men that the Lord has placed to watch over me.

Right.

And so why should I give more attention to them than I do my own pastor?

Right.

Why should I compare them?

Why should I compare someone, we'll say, like Bodhi, who has a public ministry and part of his.

His job that how he provides for his family is some of these speaking engagements.

Right.

Why should I compare him to the one who actually cares for my soul?

Yeah.

Right.

Or.

Or we can even say the local church pastor who's been faithfully preaching a congregate to a congregation of 30 people for 40 years.

You know, and he.

He's just been shot shepherding the flock that God has given him.

Right.

He doesn't complain.

He meets the needs of the people he cares for, the people he.

He catechizes the people he.

He checks on them when they're in the hospital and cares for them and their family.

Right.

That's not the guy you see given attention to right now that has.

We've talked about this in the past.

That has bothered me a little bit because you do, like, create kind of this celebrity culture.

Sure.

Where if you're gonna have, you know, one of the things that G3 was going to have is they were going to have one big national conference that they did every two years and then regional conferences and then the regional Conference, which was supposed to be smaller conferences.

In different regions, which they did that first year.

They rolled that model out.

Right.

But then when you start looking, you see it's really the same speakers that are doing the smaller regional conferences when.

How much more impactful would it be?

If you're in a region and you get 1, 2, 3 smaller local pastors that no one knows and you have them teach.

Now the people who are local to that region can go.

There's a faithful pastor near me that I can go to if I don't have a local church or there's another faithful church.

You know what I'm saying?

Right?

I do.

I get to know the, the faithful, who the faithful local pastors are in my area.

Right.

Well, I think, yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

Like, do I go there?

Do I not?

Okay, I'm gonna send it.

All right, so, so here's, here's.

I, I feel like a missed opportunity that G3 had.

And that was the G3 church network.

Yep.

Yep.

I'm glad you went there.

I want to be careful, I want to be gracious and I want to be measured and tactful.

But I will say I have first hand knowledge of multiple pastors who are a part of that network.

And those pastors would ask, they would say to me, so this is not my opinion, this is what was said to me.

And then I'm going to leave it there.

I'm not gonna, I'm gonna try not to add any additional commentary.

Keep me honest here.

I have commentary, but I'm gonna try not to add it.

But they said to me, I don't see, see the return on investment of being part of this network.

Because every time we're on a call, it's always all about what G3 is doing and their opinions on things when it was supposed to be for equipping local churches.

Now that's what they said to me.

I've never been on a G3 church network call.

I have not heard that personally, but that was.

And maybe I shouldn't have said that because that is, Is that hearsay?

I.

I don't know.

But to your point about the regional conferences, what, what an opportunity.

Yep.

To, to, I mean, at minimum be like, hey, you're in my.

You're going to be in this area.

So here's what we want to do.

We want to bring you to this conference.

You don't have to pay for it at all.

Like, we'll cover your registration.

Don't worry about that.

You.

You get in for free.

You get here, we got you.

And I don't know if they did that.

They may, they may have done that.

I don't know.

But, but to your point, I mean, just having some of these guys who are a part of this network and, you know, doing some due diligence, listening to their sermons and going, hey, we'd love to have you, have you speak.

You know, here's topic.

Here's what we're talking about.

Here's your assignment.

Send it.

Yep.

And again, I don't know.

They may have done that.

That was just some of the feedback that I got.

But can you put Kathy, what she said, Was it Kathy that said about the competing, the comment about the competitions.

Okay, hold on.

Because this is, this is important.

A lot of people have asked why, when it comes to what, what happened with Josh and what Kathy said right here about competing conferences.

If you want to know why, that's why, that's why it was a competition.

Instead of going, hey, we're on the same team.

Our goals are the same, we may go about it from a little different angle.

But, you know, instead of championing one another and having that be the goal, it became a competition.

Yeah.

Now, some people may hear that and they may go, you know, Chris, is that hearsay?

Well, if you.

It's not, but there's a reason why G3 switched the times.

When they did their conferences, they were in January.

Now they were.

They're in the fall.

And the reason being is because another ministry started doing conferences and they decided to have that conference in January.

And that didn't go over very well.

That's correct.

So I'll just let you.

Just let you figure out what conference is in January, you know, every year, have fun.

And then, and then go back and listen to everything we've said about who was being slandered against.

Yeah.

And, and I hope people hear my heart in that.

Like, I'm not trying to engage in gossip or engage in hearsay and, and share things that, you know, that, that don't edify.

I'm.

I'm just sharing that.

Just.

That's what was shared with me.

And, and, and looking back, hindsight's always 20 20.

You can kind of see that.

That being the case and maybe why that was the case.

And again, that may not have been the experience 100 of the time, but, yeah, I, I want to be careful and tactful, but I think it's also good to share that to go.

If you're a part of a ministry or then, then be on Guard against that.

Like, if you're at a church that views this.

Brings up a good point.

Right?

Competing churches.

Yeah.

You know, here in the Bible Belt, here in the Southeast, like, we see this all the time, right.

It.

I mean, if it's a.

I mean, we see churches competing all the time, and.

And.

And it shouldn't.

It shouldn't be that way.

Right.

The goal is the same.

It should be the glory of God.

That's why we gather.

The glory of God and the edification and.

And the equipping of the saints, period.

Full stop.

You know, at my church, like, we.

You know, we have a corporate confession.

We have an assurance of pardon, and we.

We recite the Apostles Creed weekly.

We sing the doxology, we take the Lord's Supper every single week.

It's the same liturgy.

It's the same liturgical outline following that of that What.

What we do see in Scripture.

Now, does that mean that.

That the church that.

That I used to go to, who.

They're still reformed in their soteriology and their services are short.

Does that.

Does that mean.

Oh, no, We're.

We're competing against them.

No, those are my brothers and sisters.

I.

I want them to succeed.

I want them to grow in depth before breadth, and I hope they do.

But, I mean, let's hold on.

Let's.

Let's get to that competing idea and the church that you and I formerly went to when there was an issue that happened recently, like this year, y' all and our.

Right.

Well, our response.

Now.

Now, our response could have been, I.

Gotta tip the hat up for this one.

We told you so.

Like, our response could have been like, I told you.

Like, see, y' all.

Y' all were against us, and.

But now y' all.

Y' all are right.

We don't want to be right.

But our.

But that wasn't our response.

Our response was hurting for them.

Yeah, right.

How.

How many people did we reach out to and say, hey, I'm praying for you?

Yeah, right.

I had.

Because I had people reaching out to me that would go, hey, I know.

And there were people.

There's.

There's.

It's people that I've known for years, even before I went there, that didn't start going there until after I had left.

But they went.

They go, hey, I know you used to go here.

How do.

Can you help me through this?

And it's like, hey, I'm hurting for you.

Right?

I'm hurting for you, and I'm praying for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

A couple of comments there to Grab.

Yeah.

Which one?

That.

The African sheep.

I love that name.

That's funny.

I'm on YouTube, so if anybody's commenting on Facebook, I can't see that.

So.

This one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He said, we saw Vodi in New Zealand last month.

He taught me things about the mind of Christ I didn't know.

It was wonderful to unpack.

I found it valuable to focus on that for that day and a half.

Amen, brother.

Amen.

I've Each of the shepherds conference that I've conferences that I've been able to attend, there is usually one or two sermons and.

And.

And pastors who.

Who preach on something.

I'm like, I've never.

I personally.

Whoa.

You know, in 23, when I talked about that.

That having a hard time, having a rough time when I was being slandered behind my back, and I didn't even know it, it was.

It was HB Charles sermon about prayer.

Right after that.

The stuck with me that year and.

And thinking about prayer and not giving up and continuing to move forward, and the way he unpacked, that is exactly what I needed in that moment.

And I told him that.

I'm like, brother, in that moment, you were my pastor.

In that moment, you pastored me and shepherded me.

So kind of sidebar, because we're talking about celebrity pastors, right?

HP Charles, man, he's coming into it.

That dude that could preach, man, like, years ago, I was kind of like, yeah, I don't know.

I'm not getting it.

But I read his book.

I read his book on being a pastor.

Phenomenal.

Because he's so honest with you about himself in that book.

But then here, he's like that in.

Person too, by the way.

Yeah, but.

But hearing him preach, it's like, bro, you're coming into it.

Yeah, he.

And when I told him that too, he was super gracious and gave me a big old hug and said, brother, thank you for sharing that.

I needed that, you know, and offered to pray for me.

And that was cool because I saw tears in my eyes, man.

I'm like, I just.

You'll never know.

So I get that.

African sheep.

I get that.

That's cool.

I'm glad you had that experience.

Yep.

What.

What are the comments?

So, Mr.

Mr.

Khan.

Okay.

He had a couple.

Sounds a bit like modern church.

Mega.

Modern megachurch culture problems.

Sorry.

Not trying to offend or being a broken record growing up charismatic.

Personally, can't help but see the similarities.

Sure.

Yeah.

So the only thing I would say is, you know, Especially when talking about G3.

Josh Bice.

Right.

Praise Mill isn't a mega church, not by a long shot.

But I can see where you would kind of see similarities in the behavior of.

Of Dr.

Bice with some mega church pastors, especially in the charismatic movement.

Well, and we got to be careful, Mr.

Khan.

I know you.

You didn't like you.

No.

You didn't offend.

And.

And I hope I don't offend here either.

You got to be careful how you define megachurch, you know, because people would consider maybe Grace Community Church, John's Church is a mega church.

But why?

They have thousands upon thousands of members.

They also have hundreds upon hundreds of elders, you know, and I think to.

Make sure every one of those.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think there was.

There was an article written by them years ago that.

Something about the church of a Thousand ministries or something like that, that.

Because they.

They.

They really take that seriously and making sure that there are enough shepherds to shepherd the flock of God among them.

So how you define that?

Go ahead.

If you've.

If you've listened to the MacArthur Expository podcast, the MacArthur center podcast.

MacArthur center podcast.

While that church has thousands and thousands of members, whenever something happens to a member, John MacArthur is the first person there on the scene.

I mean, you're talking about testimony from people that go, we didn't even know he knew us, right?

And he was the first one there, and he was there to check on us and to make sure we were okay.

And it's like, yeah, wow.

Kathy Deming just brought up a good point.

She's like.

Because she.

She goes to Grace, and she's like, but we live in a city of millions.

100%.

Right.

It depends on where you.

There's so many factors in there.

That's why.

I mean, it's the culture problem.

It goes back to what I was saying before.

It's that brand over brotherhood issue.

It's that, you know, it's.

It's.

It's being concerned about the image and the optics.

See, look, optics matter, but optics don't matter more than souls.

And we have to remember that.

So.

So, yeah, it can be.

It can be a megachurch problem.

So.

So.

And then he put another comment up there, too, about hope.

It's hope.

It is not offensive to say, but personally would prefer a boring pastor speaking biblical truth, be it reformed or fundamentalist type, than a highly charismatic, motivational, mega church pastor.

Amen, brother.

Same.

I'd rather have somebody who.

I'd rather have somebody get up and rightly divide, cut it straight, accurately handle the word of God and.

And.

And not have all the flair, you know, over, you know, somebody who's highly charismatic, like a motivational speaker or somebody.

Well, even in that.

Right.

Let's just take the teaching aspect out of it.

If you had someone who just got up and simply read Scripture, that would have more of an effect than a highly charismatic preacher with flare and oratory skills.

Okay, so.

Oh, did I open it?

Did I step in it here?

No, no, no, no, no.

So for those of you who know me and have listened to matter of theology.

You know, there was a time in my life when I was a Passion guy, Right.

Love to go to the Passion Conferences, served at Passion City Church for a couple years, volunteered on the, like, the production and worship team for them.

And there was one of the Passion Conferences.

I don't remember which one it was at or which year it was, but for one of the sessions, instead of a sermon being preached, it was Louis Giglio, Beth Moore, Lecrae, John Piper, Francis Chan, and I think one other person.

All they did is they got up and they stood there and they just read Ephesians.

They took turns reading sections from Ephesians.

That's all they did.

And it was.

And that had more of an impact than the entire conference.

Except for Piper.

Except for Piper.

It was awesome.

It was awesome.

So when you said that, I was.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Now let's.

Let's kind of shift gears a little before we start bringing it to a close.

What does.

Oh, we're in Anthony time.

We are in Anthony, technically, man, I haven't.

Haven't heard that phrase in a long time.

Sorry, go ahead.

What does this mean for G3?

Right.

What does this mean for the future?

I have no idea.

That's up to the Lord, man.

I don't know.

I really don't.

I.

Obviously, it's.

If you had to throw your opinion out there in terms of what they should do, do you think.

Drawing board.

Yeah.

Kind of scale it back a little.

You know, it's all the reigns.

You know, people refer to G3 as, like, the Shepherd's Conference for families.

And.

A place for, you know, and it was, to a degree.

I understand that.

I don't know.

It's hard for me to give an opinion on that, man, right now.

I mean, immediate future healing.

Yeah.

Restoration.

I think Scott put it on Twitter a few days ago about.

Just time to.

To mend.

Mend some fences, build some bridges, however you want to.

Word that, that, that definitely is the first, the first thing I, I think if I, if you said, okay, you have to give an opinion, you have to give an answer right now.

If that was the.

Then that's the question you're asking.

It probably needs to be honestly dismantled, Go back to the drawing board, change the name, rebrand it, and truly make it a ministry that equips the church and not a ministry.

It needs to be dismantled, rebranded, and, and if it's going to continue, it needs to be a ministry that cares about the depth of local churches, period.

Full stop.

And now what that looks like, practically, I have no idea.

Yeah.

That'S my very humble opinion.

I have no idea.

I don't know.

I mean.

Yeah, well, if, If I could offer.

Nobody's asking me.

This is me asking myself if I could offer one piece of advice to the board of G3, just as somebody that's, that's on the outside looking in, I would say you should probably stop sending emails about giveaways for books that I just got while we were recording this episode.

And I would say this.

More transparency, less damage control.

Yeah.

Build the bridges, mend the fences.

They have access to those anonymous accounts.

More transparency, less damage control.

I don't know what that looks like practically, but don't try to save face.

Hands off the wheel.

Be transparent, Be honest to move forward.

What about you?

Oh, man, it's a tough question, right?

Because you think about some of the other people involved, right, at G3 and some of the good work they've done.

Yeah.

You think about, you think about all the books and things that Scott Daniels put out on worship alone.

Oh, that's.

I'm like, the books, the G3.

Like, there are so many great things, so many great things that G3 was doing.

G3 press the, the.

The articles and stuff that they're having people write.

Like, my buddy Ethan Jago has been writing articles, articles, and Dave Jenkins has the book published by them.

Like, I'm like, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

So, you know, it's.

Yeah, there.

I mean, you.

When you start thinking about that and all the people that were writing for them and, and being published by them, right.

You know that, that sin, that sin affects deep.

And so you start thinking about all the good work that's done by the people, other people that are involved with G3, and you go, we can't punish them.

Right.

For the sin.

Right.

Of one.

And so.

But what does that look like?

Right?

I think, I mean, I, I think it's, it's a good idea to.

To dismantle.

You know, my fir.

My initial thought was, okay, keep moving forward, but then you got to go.

Well, what does moving forward really look like?

Well, it's not.

It's not a punishment necess.

I mean, I understand it may feel like.

Like that, but it's not a punishment to those people.

It's a.

It's.

It's the consequence, and it's not.

It's.

It's.

It's.

Don't ever think.

If you're listening to us, don't ever think that your sin just affects you.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I want to put this up real quick by Melissa.

She said, I really appreciate Dave Jenkins.

I feel so bad for him because of Josh's sin.

Actually talked to Dave not too long ago.

He's.

I think he's writing, like, two books at the moment right now.

I don't know if I can say one.

I know one's on biblical masculinity.

I'll say that.

Or biblical.

Interesting.

Okay.

So I know that's one of them.

He told me the other one.

I forgot it, though.

But, yeah, he's.

He's writing two books at the moment, so me and him keep in pretty good contact.

Yeah.

He actually is pulling some of the stuff that I've put on the Matter of theology sub stack to put over on his Servants of Grace, bro.

You're killing it with that, by the way.

So let me encourage you.

It's really good, man.

It's just.

It's really good, bro.

I have.

Like, if y' all are reading that, that's all true, man.

I keep it anonymous so people don't know.

Right.

It's only going to be one of two people.

Right.

That's all true.

But one of the things.

I wish I had time to do that right now.

Well, so some of the stuff that's.

Some of the stuff is.

Is written, right?

It's.

Or it's stuff that I've written down before, gone back, filled in notes, and just kind of finished.

And then what I do with those is I kind of put them in chat GPT and I say polish this up, you know, do some grammar, you know, edit it.

Edit it, basically, since I don't have an editor, and then I'll take it.

But then some of the stuff I've put out.

One was like a Bible study type on Jonah, which was a Bible study I did for a church that I said, format this for a devotional.

And then I took one of our.

I haven't.

I don't Think I've posted it yet.

I took one of our Matter of Theology episodes.

I took the transcript.

So all the work that we did.

Oh, nice, bro.

To put together an episode and just had it format it for an article.

Oh, cool.

So that one's actually a combined work.

Since we did.

Since we both did that.

Just kidding, y' all.

I did.

I did contribute.

At least to one.

Yeah, you did contribute.

And then.

No, because I did the other one.

That was kind of the same thing.

That was.

Yeah, yeah.

The Soundtrack of Immaturity, which was a compilation of stuff that you and I have said about worship.

So.

Can get ourselves in trouble all over.

Yeah, it's kind of a mixture of things.

It's like stuff that we've already done that I'm just having it reformatted.

I'm having AI reformat it to fit article format.

And then I'm having stuff just kind of cleaned up and polished so that it sounds like I'm actually really smart.

And I don't sound like I'm a Southerner.

Trying to.

Trying to speak.

Trying to.

Trying to use words.

But.

But, yeah.

Back to what they should do.

My.

You know, my first thought was, keep moving forward.

But then what does that look like?

Keep moving forward.

I.

I think the dismantling, taking it back to the drawing board, saying, okay, what is our priority, primary focus here?

Right.

Is our primary focus equipping the local church?

Start there and build off of that, then do it and do it.

That doesn't necessarily mean you're immediately going to start having conferences again, but it may mean, hey, you're traveling to a local church and helping a local church where they need help.

You know, maybe they've reached out to.

To you for something, you know, like a specific teaching.

How do we.

Can you come and look at how we're training our elders and maybe give us some feedback or a direction to go in training elders or evaluating who would be a good candidate for an elder.

Right.

You know, so just some things like that.

So I think that would be.

I think the idea of dismantling, rebranding.

I think rebranding is a good idea because people associate G3 with Josh Buys, and now that leaves a distrustful taste in your mouth.

And so rebranding would be a good idea.

And if.

Hey.

And if they need rebranding ideas, hey, come to me.

I'm full of names, right?

I'm full of name.

I'll give you 20 names by.

By the end of the weekend, which you can rebrand to.

But, yeah, I Think.

I think the direction you're heading is a good direction.

And I would and, you know, use that as the platform to now build up local church pastors.

Yeah.

You know, and go from there.

So I know we're already in Anthony time.

Does anybody that Mr.

Khan put a comment about the Second Amendment?

I thought I saw.

Yeah, I saw it, but I didn't grab it.

Now I do want to say, because Melissa put up.

Put up a comment a while ago that I wanted to put up here.

She said, I think Andrew Rapaport handled the situation well.

Now this situation kind of runs deeper than more people know.

Yep.

And I'm only saying this because Andrew spoke about this on the Deadman Walking podcast.

He spoke about some of this.

I'm not going to go into detail like you can go listen to that about it, but Andrew was a target of Josh Bice and being slandered.

And I'll say this about Andrew because I said it to him last week after the show when we got done, it was me, him and Chuck and I was talking to Andrew and I said, Andrew, you know, I've known for a couple years that you've been slandered by Josh Bice and by, you know, G3.

And I notice that whenever we talk about those men and their name comes up, you never speak bad about them.

He's.

He's always directing people to their content.

He's always speaking well of them.

He's speaking highly of them.

He doesn't put them down.

And, you know, looking at the way Andrew handled the situation, knowing some of the backstory and things like that and then some of the things that were.

And it was kind of brought out with John Harris on conversations that matter that Andrew was a big part of the cessationist movie getting funded.

Yes.

And he ended up being pulled from that project.

And so there were some kind of behind the scenes things with that regarding Josh Bice.

But even knowing that.

Right.

You looking at the character of Andrew, he never once badmouthed any of them in any.

Still hasn't.

Still has not.

And even, you know, he, the reason we're doing this show, he told us to do this show while he was gone.

Right.

Because it's putting him in a position to not speak about, you know, that situation and stuff.

And so I just think that is a show of high moral character.

And Andrew would say, well, I deserve a lot worse than someone slandering me.

You know, he said that.

He said, you know, yeah, from.

What I deserve from the Lord is a lot worse than just someone saying things about me that aren't true.

So I can take.

I can take that.

But I think that just speaks to the character of Andrew.

Yeah, I agree.

I agree.

And, yeah, wholeheartedly.

Because it could have.

It could have been an opportunity for.

For him to.

To.

Yeah.

To release the hounds when it comes to exactly what happened.

And.

Yeah.

You know, and the.

And that's one of the reasons why I continue to help Andrew with the show when I can is, you know, knowing things like that and then going.

Seeing his character and then not retaliating.

I go, you know what?

Yeah, I'll help you out.

I'll definitely help you out.

And that's.

That brings up a.

That brings up a good reminder.

Right.

Second Timothy, chapter two, verse 24.

The Lord's slave must not be quarrelsome.

Yep.

But kind to all, able to teach patient when wronged with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may give them repentance leading to the full knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

There you go.

Oh, my goodness, bro.

All right.

Well, man, we've gone.

We've gone past.

We have.

I think it's time to wrap up the show.

Final thoughts.

Don't have anonymous accounts.

Did I make too light of that?

Don't be a jerk.