00:00 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Well, thank you so much, Chris, for being here, and I haven't asked you yet, even though we've been chatting for a few minutes before the record button. Where are you in the world?

00:08 - Kris Jones (Host)

I am in Portland, Oregon.

00:10 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Oh nice, you have a very fuzzy, cute warm hat on and I was like maybe you're not in Florida.

00:18 - Kris Jones (Host)

No, I took a really long walk this morning along the river and it was really cold, like the grass was frozen, so yeah, I've got my hat on today.

00:29 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Well, you're talking with the Minnesotans. So it's like eight degrees outside today, so I get the cold 1,000%. Yeah, there's no grass.

00:40 - Kris Jones (Host)

It's that cold.

00:42 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

There's just piles and piles and piles of snow. It's nice, though. It's a nice change because it gets really green and verdant here in the summer, so it's like a weird switch. Anyway, we are going to talk a little bit today about copy and using words to attract your clients, and I think what drew me to this conversation and I've covered this before on the podcast, but I love getting different perspectives and I also just like reiterating it because I think as photographers, we're really lucky that we have powerful imagery that can immediately turn people on or off but I think that a lot of the questions I know that a lot of the questions that I get from my students and from the audience have to do with, almost always, communication.

01:30

It kind of comes down to words, and, as visual artists, I'm sure it's not the first thing we're thinking about. So I know this is your area of expertise and I thought maybe I'd just hand it off to you. Maybe say a little bit about what you do and then we can talk about how to give some photographers a few tips.

01:48 - Kris Jones (Host)

Sure, Absolutely. So my name is Chris. As you know, I'm in Portland, Oregon. I've been in the industry in the marketing industry now 20 years more than that a little bit. And yeah, I am really passionate about telling a beautiful story, and as important as the visuals are the words that you use, and when you put the visuals combined with the words together, magic happens.

02:18

So I started out in the industry as a designer, and so visuals were really my first language, and what I found over the years is that my clients that I would work with to design websites, I would rely on them to write their own copy for their website, and time and time and time and time and time again, they would come to me and just be like I don't know what to say. How do I do this? And the deadlines would move back and the start dates would move back, and I just watched so many people struggle, and I personally struggled with writing my own copy, so I just decided enough is enough. I'm going to crack the code on this. Maybe it's not as hard as it seems and I came across a framework called the Storybrand Framework.

03:13

A lot of people are familiar with the framework. A lot of people have read the book. It's called Building a Storybrand by Donald Miller. He is a brilliant storyteller and he essentially simplified the components of story and there are really seven key components to story and then, after really getting to know the framework and using it for many years, I've simplified it even further. So really it comes down to every story, every movie you've ever watched, any story you've ever heard somebody tell If it's a good story, if it's a compelling story. It always begins with a hero who has a problem that they can't solve, and that hero then eventually meets a guide that has a solution and through that relationship the hero finds success. And that is the mystery behind every story you've ever heard.

04:20 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Right right.

04:21 - Kris Jones (Host)

So when you can apply that framework and that's simple, it's three different things when you can apply that to marketing, all of a sudden you're telling a story that people can really connect with, resonate with, that draws people in and makes them want to work with you because they resonate with you. And when I talk about telling a story, I'm not really talking about once upon a time or the history of my background, is it's really about inviting your potential clients into a narrative with you where they're the hero and you are the guide. And that's really like, if you take away nothing else, just the idea that you are the guide and your customers or your clients or the hero, it will change the way you talk about your business.

05:15 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, well, that Donald Miller book is certainly a popular one and we'll put link to it in the show notes for sure. I want to dig into that and give maybe an example or two for photographers of just what that might look like. But I also want to highlight I was just thinking about how you said I've been doing this 20 years and obviously marketing and business has changed. I mean, it's almost unrecognizable Almost year to year. It changes so fast and I thought I'd maybe just quickly ask you, before we dig into the other stuff, how important Is copy and story in that timeline? Has it pretty much stayed at the very top of the stack or have other things kind of come in and changed that?

05:58 - Kris Jones (Host)

Well, the beautiful thing about storytelling is that it hasn't changed in thousands of years. The only difference is now we know that we can use story in our marketing for it to be much more effective. But as far as what's changed over the 20 years, definitely everything Like early days, like gosh 20 years ago creating a website, or even 15 years ago creating a website. If you had beautiful photography and a really clean design, you were golden, like your business would do great.

06:34 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Totally.

06:35 - Kris Jones (Host)

And that's all you needed. And now that's just not really that hard to get between all the stock photos out there and all the pre-dawn templates and Squarespace and all of that. And I think it's a good thing because everybody has access to be able to build websites without spending thousands of dollars. So, like big picture, it's a wonderful thing, but it's really leveled the playing field. So in order to stand out, you really need to tell a story, and that's really the one thing that requires a high level of kind of strategy and energy.

07:14 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Absolutely so. The hero in our story as photographers, our clients need good photos. I guess that would probably be the main problem that they're trying to solve, but I'm also quite certain, at least in my audience, that they also want it to be relatively painless and easy and if they have little kiddos, quick and there's a few other points to kind of hit on that. You know, I'm again speaking just from lifestyle photography but and we're the guide, so maybe would it be cool to kind of pick it up from there and kind of just talk around that, give a couple of examples to photographers around how that works.

07:52 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, so every story begins with a hero that has a problem. So think about your clientele and it really it would change depending on if you're doing wedding photography. What are their struggles, what are their problems versus family portrait photography. Those clients are going to struggle with different things. So if it were family portrait photography, it might be. They're unable to ever get their family all together in one group Because someone's got to take the photo in the family, or usually the mom taking the photos, so she's not in any of the photos. They might be struggling with the fact that they've got too much going on and they don't have time to capture these important moments of life.

08:43

That might mean that you know their house is their family is very vibrant and loving, but there are no visuals on their walls that really show that.

08:55 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Sure.

08:56 - Kris Jones (Host)

Let their house to feel like a home. I mean, there's probably dozens and dozens Like what are some that come to mind for you?

09:03 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, you kind of nailed some of them.

09:05

And then I was thinking about wedding photographers actually, because we have a lot of those listening and this idea of like I want to feel comfortable, confident, I want to know that I don't have to worry about it, that this photographer isn't going to be late or mess up or be rude or too much, or you know there's all these things because you're really sharing a space with someone in a really intimate way.

09:28

Photographers are often the only ones allowed in certain situations besides the couple or whatever is going on, and so I think there's a lot of like stress around that Like, if they pick the wrong person, so many things can essentially go wrong. And if they pick the right person and if they feel confident that they're the right person whether that's because you're sharing reviews or because you're really a great person, a person when you do your first meeting with the couple, all of those things play into it. And I think I'm bringing this up only because I think photographers are really just thinking about like, oh my gosh, I'm shooting at that church, I can't wait to put them by that window. You know, like they're so often just thinking about the visual and the product that all of these other things that apply to, like the hero's problem are not actually to do with photography. I mean, obviously a portion of it are, but like some of it is just totally different stuff.

10:24 - Kris Jones (Host)

Totally, yeah, exactly. Everybody thinks that we make decisions based on facts, like, okay, I'm having a wedding, I need it to be photographed and so, check the box, I need a photographer. But we really make our decisions based on emotions. So if you can put people's emotions at ease through what you say on your website and help them understand, you've got this. You're the guide. You've done this a million times before. You know how to capture those moments. You know how to put people at ease. You know how to be an invisible force right, that's going to capture these moments and eliminate the stress for the bride. So all those things are like problems that you can help them understand, that you recognize and, what's interesting, when we are really clear and we really articulate their struggles or their problems, the things that are keeping them up at night, when we articulate that, the better we articulate it, the more quickly they're going to immediately think we're the ones that can solve it.

11:33 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

A thousand percent. And this is that piece with photographers, where, if you're listening, what are all of the things that you do really well, maybe you're super punctual, you have an easy sign up booking system, all of these things, like you were really fast with little kids, you're great with dogs, I don't know. Say all of those things, say them all the time, because those are the things, like you just said, that I think photographers forget to talk about. I mean, they just, really just talk about the product and I can't stress enough how much it helps to talk about all that other stuff.

12:06 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yes, yeah, it's so true. I mean, you want to talk about all that other stuff as it relates to your client. You definitely want to show the benefits of working with you. Of course, you really want to show how are they going to succeed because of this, like, how are they? Is their life going to be like after this because they've hired you?

12:30 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Right.

12:30 - Kris Jones (Host)

They're going to have these incredible albums forever. They're going to have these moments that are embedded into their memories because you've captured those. So we really want to make sure we speak to all like the happy end result that all of this is going to provide for them.

12:47 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

And that's where the story comes in, right.

12:49 - Kris Jones (Host)

It is. So we've got the hero that has a problem. So we articulate their problems so they feel seen, they feel heard, they resonate with you and they automatically think that you're the best one to solve this problem because you simply articulated it. And then that hero meets a guide with a solution and this is where you enter in to the story. Notice, you don't talk about yourself at the beginning of the story. You talk about the hero and then about halfway through your page, that's when you've really earned their trust and earned the right to introduce yourself as the guide and the idea is really to position your services as the solution to their problem. Yeah, and I'm going to repeat that. So we want to position your services as a solution to their problem and when we do that, we become the guide. We do that through empathy, we do it through authority and positioning our services in that way and empathy.

13:51

A guide has been there, done that and understands kind of the frustration or the fear or the struggle that that their hero is going through. And so you just kind of empathize like, hey, I get this, this is, this is hard. This is a big decision. There's a lot writing on this decision and it feels like a lot. The last thing you want is more stress on your big day. So through that empathy and through authority you know people just want to know, like that you know what you're doing basically. And authority can come through and in a few different ways. It's really pretty easy to do. You can say like 125 number of weddings shot, or 12 years in the business or some kind of certification that you might have.

14:38 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

So yeah, awards, all that kind of stuff.

14:41 - Kris Jones (Host)

Testimonials can be a great way to do that. Build authority too. So that's part two. We've got a hero with a problem. They meet a guide with this solution, and then that hero finds success, and it's your job as the guide to show them what success looks like.

14:59 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Can I pause you for a quick second before we go into that, what success looks like? Yes, you had mentioned to not at first just jump in with your solution as the guide. What could that kind of look like? That time period? Is it like a series of emails or is it like, I mean, how does that look to someone who just comes into a business as someone that needs, we'll just say, like a wedding photographer, how long is that journey until you step in and go? I know what you need, or what does that kind of look like? Does that make sense?

15:30 - Kris Jones (Host)

what I'm asking it totally makes sense, and if you want to go to my website, reddoordesignscom, you can see all of this in action. But it happens. It all happens on your webpage, but it happens in a specific order. A lot of self-employed people. We talk about ourselves right off the bat, at the beginning, before we've really established resonance with the person who's coming to our website. So part of how we establish that resonance is letting them know that we understand where they're at, we care about their problem, we care about solving that problem for them and we show them what success looks like. So what that means on your website and this is true for pretty much all your social media posts, even your social media profiles, your email signature you can put these messages in there and I'll kind of talk you through what that looks like if we have time.

16:28

But essentially on the homepage of your website, you want to start with the problem. You want to communicate maybe five bullets that they're struggling with and then you want to follow that by painting a picture of what's possible. Our brains are just constantly standing in our environment to figure out how we're going to thrive, how we're going to survive, and so we want to just spoon feed that up to them right off the bat, and this is not features yet. We just want to show them how are they going to thrive and that might be, like I mentioned before after the fact, after they've worked with you how's their life going to be better for it. So you want to do that right off the bat, and then you want to introduce yourself as the hero through empathy and authority.

17:17 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Perfect, that's very helpful. Let's jump back into the success Correction.

17:23 - Kris Jones (Host)

Then you introduce yourself as the guy, not the hero, not the hero.

17:28 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

you're right, I didn't even catch that either. And now I'm like oh, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, the guides the business owners.

17:34 - Kris Jones (Host)

You are the Yoda. You are the Yoda to loop Skywalker.

17:38 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, so folks are in that place and then I kind of cut you off for that question. But now we want to show them what success looks like. Is that what you said for sort of like number three?

17:46 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, so think of three ways that their life will be better because they've worked with you, and that might just be for wedding photographer. I mean, you can probably come up with a ton of these ideas, but examples might be be able to have a photos that you one day show your kids and capture your special day and even moments that you weren't even aware of that happened. There's all kinds of beautiful things that happen because of the work that you do. What ideas do you have?

18:22 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Well, I always go to like sort of easing that stress, like being a fly on the wall making sure that everything's captured, you don't have to worry about it, you know that you'll have a beautiful story, punctuality, communication just all of that stuff really eases people's minds and letting them know that they can just like stop worrying about it. Because I think for particularly for weddings, if you can take worry off their list like, oh, photographer's all good off the list, you know If you can do that as soon as possible. You know with, like you said, with authority and all of those things I mean and that's that's another podcast but that's what a great sales call will do is just when you can take that off their plate before they've even booked with you, where they're like, oh, we just need this person because we don't want to think about this anymore. I think that's a really big one.

19:08 - Kris Jones (Host)

Right, you know you bring up a really good point with the sales call, so the idea is that your website is your sales call, right? So if you've done your homework and you've done your work and you're telling a really powerful story on your website, then by the time they get on the call with you, they're already sold on you. They just want to essentially talk through a couple of details and book it. And so I found with my clients just that amount of time saved and effort of sales calls is really eliminated, which is such a gift.

19:44 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, and you can really tell when you're doing something. I have a private coaching program called the Greenhouse and that sales page is almost exactly like what we've been talking about, but it's quite detailed, there's testimonials, there's like the problems right up front. There's all that kind of stuff. And the folks that I've worked with in that container have all jumped on the sales call and just been ready. They just had like a few questions and I think you can tell, because I mean, when I reflect on that first iteration of that program, like three years ago, I was not doing a good job communicating that.

20:15

So there were people saying no and there were people that had a lot of questions. And anytime I tell Audrey and I, who's my co-host, we talk about this a lot, but anytime clients are coming to you with like lots of questions or if you find yourself being like why do people keep asking how to check out of their cart, you know like, or whatever the thing is, we all have these things that pop up that are redundant. It's almost always cause you're not explaining it super well and just remembering that you are the one in your business all day long, every day, and so it might be like completely obvious to you, but it's. It's not obvious to a new person almost ever, you know.

20:55 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, that's called the curse of knowledge, and it's really common for anyone who's an expert in their field. We forget what it's like to not know what we know, and so we end up speaking to other people or potential clients as if they get it and with language that goes over their head that's right.

21:16

That's a really common thing and it can be eliminated just by paying attention to those questions like you're talking about, or putting it in front of a friend's eyes and saying, okay, if you didn't know me, what would be your takeaway from this page? Yeah, absolutely.

21:31 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I mean, that's exactly in my program. I have the baby boomer test, which I lovingly call because, like my folks are of that generation, and I'll just say, can you just look at this and figure out how to get from A to B? And if they can't, then it's probably needs to be simplified because it's just a really good metric for sort of the average person.

21:50

That isn't constantly in a techie space you know, Right, true, just one example, but I totally agree with that. Before we jump off, I mean and I think this is an amazing thing to think about already I know people listening are like oh gosh, I'm not, I don't have any of that on my site. But let's maybe just reiterate, like if I were to go to so and so's website and they're a wedding photographer, what should they have? As far as just one more time kind of, what should we see as a client that is, or the hero that has major anxiety about wanting to find a competent, talented wedding photographer?

22:27 - Kris Jones (Host)

So what do you want to see on their website?

22:30 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, like right away. What are we looking for?

22:33 - Kris Jones (Host)

What you want to do upfront in that, like upper hero section, is you just want to clearly articulate what you do. I'm a photographer who photographs weddings. Yeah, you know like it's that you could probably make it a little bit more interesting, but it should be so stupid simple. It shouldn't have to burn any brain calories to figure out what you do and who you do it for.

22:58 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

And I was going to say your Instagram is like that, your bio. How would you tell someone what you do if you were just talking to your friend? Oh, I do blah, blah, blah, blah. So that blah, blah, blah, blah, it can be that easy, you know, rather than it being really kind of esoteric and like trying to figure out what's what's going on. For example, photo business help was named photo business help because I was like, well, that's what it is, you know, just let's. I was like maybe we could call it clicking with you know, I mean I went through all and there's a lot of great photo businesses.

23:32

I don't want to offend anybody that have really funky names and that's cool, but for me I was just. This is what it is, so I'm just going to do that, you know.

23:40 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yes, and you just saved yourself probably a year of your life not having to explain what it is, because the name is spells it out there for people. So you've really got five seconds in that upper area to communicate what you do and who you do it for, and if you can't clearly communicate that, a lot of people will leave the website because they're like this is going to be too much work. Everyone's kind of overwhelmed with information anyway, so you just want to keep it stupid, simple, clear over clever every day. Clear over clever.

24:17 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

That's the best.

24:19 - Kris Jones (Host)

Everyone wants to be clever, but yeah, no, no, no I know I like to be clever too, but clear wins every time. And then you want to follow that up with a few bullets about, like you might say, are you struggling with? And then three bullets that are really the words that your clients tell you in their language. What are they struggling with? They're stressed out about their big day. So many details. They, you know all the things. So you want to do three to five bullets of that problem and then you want to paint a picture of what success looks like for them. What is that day? They're going to fully engage in your special day because you won't have to worry about a thing you know, like what is their life really going to look like? Because they've hired you. And then you want to introduce yourself as the guide and position your services as the solution to that problem.

25:18 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Beautiful. It's so funny, though, because it's simple. Yet, and especially with photographers, you know, a lot of this gets overlooked. And fair enough, if you are a talented photographer, or even competent, your images can sell someone. I mean, if they're just like I, like that. That's what I want, but it's a very, very saturated industry. So to be able to just be clear and not clever, be able to communicate your value all of that kind of stuff is super helpful.

25:45 - Kris Jones (Host)

It is simple. It truly is, but there is a thing called the bottle effect, which is? It just means that when we're too close to our own business, it's like trying to read the label of the bottle from inside the bottle. The label cannot be read, and this is true for every business owner. When we are the business, we are just so close to it, we can't get the perspective we need. And I work with people who are authors, who are writers as a profession, but they're again struggling with this. It's not about if you're a good writer or not. The challenge is because you're just so close to your own self and your own business that it's really hard to write about it, which is why I do the work that I do.

26:31

It's just to create that perspective that you know, fresh eyes on you and your business, and the perspective that is really critical to tell a compelling story.

26:44 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Yeah, in college I had a creative writing minor and was really interested in all sorts of books on writing and stuff and Stephen King, his on writing book which is amazing, even if you're not a writer he always talks about killing your darlings. You know, when you're you have this like loving relationship with your favorite things you've come up with and someone else looks at it and they're like that. I don't get it, because you have kind of an entire narrative and experience in your own head kind of attached to this thing that no one else no one else can see. So you know anything that you do creatively, if you can like walk away from it and come back to it I think same with your business like maybe just don't look at your website for a month and then come back to it and be like, oh, that is not making any sense, you know right.

27:33 - Kris Jones (Host)

Right, I mean, and the other thing to keep in mind. I think what you mentioned earlier was just put it in front of somebody who has no idea who you are or what you do like go to a coffee shop and be like can I buy you a coffee if you look at my website?

27:47

You can get really valuable information that way. And the other thing that I like people to know because I think it lets people off the hook with, like the pressure to write is that people actually don't read websites anymore. They scan them. So when you have a long paragraph of copy, it will not get read. People do not read websites anymore. They scan them. So you want to make sure your headlines are doing the heavy lifting for you. You want to make sure they're intentional, not like about me. You know. You want to really have those headlines be working for you. And then, instead of long paragraph of copy, you want maybe one or two or three sentences, the most.

28:28 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Beautiful. Well, I think that gives people a lot to think about, and Donald Miller's book is highly recommended. So check that out too. But you really covered the basics. It's like that's it everyone, but it's we still need you, because sometimes it's just too difficult to do it on our own. So if you're feeling really stuck and you're listening with all this stuff, obviously check out all of Chris's stuff too, because we have that on the show notes. In the show notes, I don't know what I'm talking about. Where can people find you? Where's, like, your best favorite place for people to find you?

29:01 - Kris Jones (Host)

If you want to work with me or you want to take advantage of my free offerings, you can go to reddoordesignscom. That's red, red, d, o, o, r designs, plural D, s, I, g, n Scom, and you can find everything there. You can also check out my main offering, which is copy that sells, website copy that sells 2.5 hours flat. So if you're ready to check off website copy off your list, you and I can get it done together in two and a half hours and it'll be done forever, and then your website will become your most powerful sales tool.

29:43 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

That's brilliant. The quick turnaround, I think, is really incredible and what people want.

29:49 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, I mean when you own your own business, like wearing all the hats, there's not a lot of free time and you don't have time to, number one, write it yourself or hire a copywriter, you know, and spend a month going back and forth doing edits, and that's why it's a collaborative process. We literally do it together.

30:09 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Well, well, if that speaks to you, please check out Chris's stuff and all of that's linked in the show notes. I just wanted to sort of like wrap up with one thing that really I try to ask my guests, like what is a quote or an idea or something that you turn to that just really helps you? It doesn't even have to be related to business, it can just be like I say this every morning, or whatever.

30:32 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, oh, that's what a great question. I think that something that helps me a lot is just asking myself the question how can I make this easier? And whatever I'm doing, how can I make it easier? And I find that like I can complicate things, just like I think in humans we all do, and especially if we want to put ourselves out there and and like it really kind of not not a perfect way, but just like I have a high level of I expect a lot out of the work that I do, and so you know it's a fine balance between perfectionism and just doing your best, but I find that that question helps me just continue to keep things really, really simple.

31:23 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

I love that. It actually just made me relax. When you said it I was like, hmm, how can I make it easier?

31:30 - Kris Jones (Host)

I mean, I record a meditation for that.

31:33 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Please do and share it with me, but I think that that's super valuable and all of this was fantastic. I know it's a baseline sort of place to start for people, but I really think for photographers this is going to be super useful. So thank you, chris, so much, and we can do this again, maybe dig in a little deeper on some of this stuff Another time, but I really appreciate you coming on the show.

31:56 - Kris Jones (Host)

Yeah, I'd really love to. I think we should definitely do that.

32:00 - Natalie Joanne (Host)

Sounds good.